U.S. iPhone 14 Models Will Not Have a Physical SIM Slot. Non-U.S. Models Will Have Both Physical SIM Slot and eSIM Support.

[sms]

Beginning with the iPhone 14, Apple has removed the physical SIM card
slot from iPhones sold in the U.S.. This is a major bit of decontenting.

This decontenting is especially bad for international travelers from the
U.S. that purchase inexpensive prepaid SIM cards for use in their
destination country. This forces those travelers to use more expensive
and/or less fully-featured international roaming options. Postpaid
carriers offer high-cost international roaming, with low limits for
high-speed data; the carriers may have urged Apple to remove the
physical SIM slot for this reason. This also prevents non-U.S. residents
from purchasing U.S. iPhone modes for use outside the U.S., since eSIM
support outside the U.S. is very limited.

There are several vendors of data-only eSIMS for international roaming
which do not include a foreign phone number to use for calls or SMS
(though your U.S. number will work with the foreign data-only eSIM for
data-based calling and texting). These data-only eSIMs are almost always
much more expensive per GB than prepaid physical SIM cards. Most MVNOs
and carrier-based prepaid services do not offer international roaming at
all, though some provide Mexico and/or Canada roaming. Many U.S. MVNOs
do not yet offer eSIM support though presumably the iPhone 14’s lack of
a physical SIM slot will force them to provide eSIM support.

U.S. consumers can purchase an iPhone 14 in Canada, Mexico, or any
non-U.S. country, to obtain a full-featured phone with both a physical
SIM and eSIM support, but non-U.S. iPhone 14 models lack mmWave 5G.

Unlike the loss of the headphone jack, there is no easy workaround for
the loss of the physical SIM slot. One solution would be to bring along
a separate phone with a SIM slot and use it as a hotspot for the iPhone 14.

I added this to the document <https://tinyurl.com/iOS-Android-Features>
as #188a on page 86.

[nospam]

In article <tfc1pr$g1ob$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> Beginning with the iPhone 14, Apple has removed the physical SIM card
> slot from iPhones sold in the U.S.. This is a major bit of decontenting.

it figures you'd claim it's a negative. yet another obvious attempt at
trolling with more disinformation.

the reality is that esims are the way of the future. they provide a lot
more flexibility and simplicity than physical sims, including easily
switching among multiple (not just two) accounts.

as usual, apple drives technology forward.

apple knows how widespread esim use is worldwide and what effect it
will have. you do not.

> This decontenting is especially bad for international travelers from the
> U.S. that purchase inexpensive prepaid SIM cards for use in their
> destination country.

international travelers can buy an esim and activate it with a lot less
hassle.

unfortunately, a few countries still require physical sims, which will
change and this is going to accelerate it.

it's also a small segment.

> This also prevents non-U.S. residents
> from purchasing U.S. iPhone modes for use outside the U.S.,

the number of people who do that is negligible for a variety of
reasons, mostly that the cellular bands will not necessarily match
what's used in their country, making it not particularly useful.

> since eSIM
> support outside the U.S. is very limited.

no it isn't. it's not universal (yet), but it's certainly not 'very
limited'.

>
> I added this to the document

of course you did, while totally misrepresenting it.

not surprisingly, you are ignoring one of the biggest features of the
iphone 14, namely satellite emergency sos, which not a single android
phone can do and won't for a *while*. there are also several others
android will try to copy.

put *that* in your 'document'.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 08.09.22 um 08:52 schrieb nospam:

> In article <tfc1pr$g1ob$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Beginning with the iPhone 14, Apple has removed the physical SIM card
>> slot from iPhones sold in the U.S.. This is a major bit of decontenting.
>
> it figures you'd claim it's a negative. yet another obvious attempt at
> trolling with more disinformation.
>
> the reality is that esims are the way of the future. they provide a lot
> more flexibility and simplicity than physical sims, including easily
> switching among multiple (not just two) accounts.
>
> as usual, apple drives technology forward.
>
> apple knows how widespread esim use is worldwide and what effect it
> will have. you do not.

E-sims are available almost everywhere on this planet.

>> This decontenting is especially bad for international travelers from the
>> U.S. that purchase inexpensive prepaid SIM cards for use in their
>> destination country.
>
> international travelers can buy an esim and activate it with a lot less
> hassle.
>
> unfortunately, a few countries still require physical sims, which will
> change and this is going to accelerate it.
>
> it's also a small segment.

Correct.

sms is behind the curve like always and he tries once mor to spread
false "information".

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 08.09.22 um 08:23 schrieb sms:

> Beginning with the iPhone 14, Apple has removed the physical SIM card
> slot from iPhones sold in the U.S.. This is a major bit of decontenting.
>
> This decontenting is especially bad for international travelers from the
> U.S. that purchase inexpensive prepaid SIM cards for use in their
> destination country.

E-SIMS are much easier to handle and to purchase. Here what Swisscom as
market leader in Switzerland write on their webpage:

eSIM

If you have an eSIM-compatible device, you can order an eSIM free of
charge. To do this, go to the Cockpit or a Swisscom Shop near you, or
call free on 0800 800 800. You receive the QR code with your new eSIM
profile as soon as you place your order and can retrieve and activate it
any time in My Swisscom.
How does the eSIM work?

The “e” stands for “embedded”. This means that the SIM is integrated
into the device and the eSIM chip is built into the device by the
manufacturer (Apple, Samsung etc.). Swisscom subsequently uploads the
eSIM profile to the device, including data about the subscription or
telephone number. In the longer term, the eSIM will replace the
traditional SIM card.

[nospam]

In article <tfc48m$vsc5$2...@solani.org>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> The łe˛ stands for łembedded˛. This means that the SIM is integrated

> into the device and the eSIM chip is built into the device by the
> manufacturer (Apple, Samsung etc.). Swisscom subsequently uploads the
> eSIM profile to the device, including data about the subscription or
> telephone number. In the longer term, the eSIM will replace the
> traditional SIM card.

apple watch has had an esim since its release in 2015, and is selling
quite well worldwide.

[Chris in Makati]

On Thu, 8 Sep 2022 08:57:27 +0200, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

>Am 08.09.22 um 08:52 schrieb nospam:
>> In article <tfc1pr$g1ob$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
>> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Beginning with the iPhone 14, Apple has removed the physical SIM card
>>> slot from iPhones sold in the U.S.. This is a major bit of decontenting.
>>
>> it figures you'd claim it's a negative. yet another obvious attempt at
>> trolling with more disinformation.
>>
>> the reality is that esims are the way of the future. they provide a lot
>> more flexibility and simplicity than physical sims, including easily
>> switching among multiple (not just two) accounts.
>>
>> as usual, apple drives technology forward.
>>
>> apple knows how widespread esim use is worldwide and what effect it
>> will have. you do not.
>
>E-sims are available almost everywhere on this planet.

I live in SE Asia and although most countries in the region now have
eSIMs they're normally only issued to people with local postpaid
accounts. Very few places have them available for tourists who need a
prepaid SIM to use on short visits to the country.

I certainly hope that eSIMs will be made more widely available to
tourists, but we're a long way from the time when you can confidently
travel with an eSIM-only phone and be sure you'll be able to get a
local SIM at your destination.

Right now, I definitely wouldn't travel overseas without a phone that
had a physical SIM card slot available,

[Your Name]

Either the casing has no SIM slot or they simply remove the connection
on the circuit board, but either way it's an added pain in the backside
for manufaturing.

[nospam]

In article <1kdlhh58gvahr3d1c...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> I live in SE Asia and although most countries in the region now have
> eSIMs they're normally only issued to people with local postpaid
> accounts. Very few places have them available for tourists who need a
> prepaid SIM to use on short visits to the country.

that will change.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.09.22 um 05:55 schrieb Chris in Makati:

> On Thu, 8 Sep 2022 08:57:27 +0200, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>> E-sims are available almost everywhere on this planet.
>
> I live in SE Asia and although most countries in the region now have
> eSIMs they're normally only issued to people with local postpaid
> accounts. Very few places have them available for tourists who need a
> prepaid SIM to use on short visits to the country.

I would suggest that these times are long over. In Europe most
subscriptions (=plans) include at least limited roaming.

Fair Flat
Wingo Mobile
Unlimitiert surfen und telefonieren in der Schweiz.
Dazu 2 GB zum Surfen in EU/Westeuropa.
Jetzt lebenslang zum Hammerpreis!
CHF 25/month


Mine with this operator is unlimited everything in Europe, Kanada and US
(including all overseas territories)
CHF 45/month

As a subsidiary of the market leader Swisscom the MVNO Wingo uses the
best network in the country.

[sms]

On 9/8/2022 8:55 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Sep 2022 08:57:27 +0200, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
> wrote:

<snip>

>> E-sims are available almost everywhere on this planet.
>
> I live in SE Asia and although most countries in the region now have
> eSIMs they're normally only issued to people with local postpaid
> accounts. Very few places have them available for tourists who need a
> prepaid SIM to use on short visits to the country.
>
> I certainly hope that eSIMs will be made more widely available to
> tourists, but we're a long way from the time when you can confidently
> travel with an eSIM-only phone and be sure you'll be able to get a
> local SIM at your destination.
>
> Right now, I definitely wouldn't travel overseas without a phone that
> had a physical SIM card slot available,

Jorge is wrong of course™.

As you point out, the issue is not so much for residents of the country
if the carriers support eSIM (and their iPhone 14 will have a SIM slot
anyway), but for visitors to the country. Hopefully, in a few years,
eSIMs will become ubiquitous for tourists as well.

While there are many companies selling eSIMs, like Airalo, Ubigi,
Truphone, etc.) these are data-only eSIMs. While you can use your U.S.
phone number to do calling and SMS, using the data connection, you don't
get a local number. Traveling in Europe, it was very much appreciated by
people and businesses to be able to contact us on EU numbers, plus
making calls within the EU did not incur international calling charges.

Obviously Apple looked at the costs and benefits of this move, and it
was probably also being driven by carriers who would prefer that their
subscribers pay high prices for international roaming. The carriers aslo
believe that this move would hurt a lot of MVNOs that don't offer
international roaming, even if they do support eSIMs. It's very telling
that Apple is only decontenting the iPhones sold in the U.S., they
wouldn't dare remove the SIM slot (yet) in the rest of the world!

There's another reason that the U.S. carriers are not happy with
physical SIM cards. There's a growing number of users that stick their
SIM card into a modem, make some modifications to some settings, and use
large amounts of data and the carrier can't detect that the SIM card is
not in a phone. But this can't be stopped until physical SIM cards are
no longer available at all.

[nospam]

In article <tffmdg$12srd$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> As you point out, the issue is not so much for residents of the country
> if the carriers support eSIM (and their iPhone 14 will have a SIM slot
> anyway), but for visitors to the country. Hopefully, in a few years,
> eSIMs will become ubiquitous for tourists as well.

much sooner than that.

the carriers *want* visitors (as well as local customers) to use their
network and have a *very* strong financial motivation to support esims.

> Obviously Apple looked at the costs and benefits of this move, and it
> was probably also being driven by carriers who would prefer that their
> subscribers pay high prices for international roaming. The carriers aslo
> believe that this move would hurt a lot of MVNOs that don't offer
> international roaming, even if they do support eSIMs.

unsupported rubbish.

most people in the usa are currently using esims, so there's no longer
a need for phones to have a physical sim. it also removes a point of
failure. the number of people who internationally roam is lost in the
noise.

> It's very telling
> that Apple is only decontenting the iPhones sold in the U.S., they
> wouldn't dare remove the SIM slot (yet) in the rest of the world!

it's not decontenting.

of course, when the first esim only android phone is released, you'll
be spinning a different story.

> There's another reason that the U.S. carriers are not happy with
> physical SIM cards. There's a growing number of users that stick their
> SIM card into a modem, make some modifications to some settings, and use
> large amounts of data and the carrier can't detect that the SIM card is
> not in a phone. But this can't be stopped until physical SIM cards are
> no longer available at all.

absolutely false.

carriers can *easily* detect which device the sim is in and block it if
it's the wrong type, generally within a day or two, depending on how
often they check.

long ago, when feature phone plans cost less due to not including
cellular data, and the carriers detected the sim was moved into a
smartphone, the carriers would automatically upgrade customer's plans
to a smartphone plan (with data), which cost more. at&t did nightly
sweeps, so at best, you could get several hours.

it also works the other way. some people want to put a sim with a
data-only tablet or modem plan into a phone, only to find that it
doesn't work (or at best, a few hours).

t-mobile's now discontinued 'free for life' data plan they offered for
ipads was locked to the specific ipad. swapping it to another ipad,
even an identical model, would fail.

carriers have long resisted esims because it makes it very easy for
customers to switch to another carrier with a few taps, increasing
churn.

nearly a decade ago, apple offered an apple sim, a physical sim that
could be used on multiple carriers, the first (and only) company to do
so. this was ideal for those who travel and need to sign up for service
for a short time (although usually with 1 month minimums).

[Chris in Makati]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2022 04:08:59 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

We would hope so, but I'm sure it will be several more years before a
visitor could get a prepaid eSIM in all (or even most) countries in
this region. So far Singapore is the ONLY country I'm aware of in SE
Asia where you can do that.

[nospam]

In article <631ohh1jkslk280ft...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> I live in SE Asia and although most countries in the region now have
> >> eSIMs they're normally only issued to people with local postpaid
> >> accounts. Very few places have them available for tourists who need a
> >> prepaid SIM to use on short visits to the country.
> >
> >that will change.
>
> We would hope so, but I'm sure it will be several more years before a
> visitor could get a prepaid eSIM in all (or even most) countries in
> this region. So far Singapore is the ONLY country I'm aware of in SE
> Asia where you can do that.

it's unlikely to be that long. carriers want the additional revenue
from visitors.

it's also not a significant number of users out of the entire user base.

[sms]

On 9/9/2022 8:35 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> We would hope so, but I'm sure it will be several more years before a
> visitor could get a prepaid eSIM in all (or even most) countries in
> this region. So far Singapore is the ONLY country I'm aware of in SE
> Asia where you can do that.

Not available in China.

What you can get, is a data-only eSIM for many countries. The cost for
data is much higher than with a local, physical SIM card, and you don't
get a phone number. Data-only SIMs, both eSIM and physical, are usually
easier to obtain because there's usually no government registration
necessary. Many countries require registration, with a passport, to buy
a physical SIM card that has a phone number because they are trying to
crack down on burner phones used by criminals.

The workaround for the U.S. iPhone 14 models will be combining a
data-only eSIM with a VOIP service. Or use your U.S. phone number to
make and receive calls, using Wi-Fi calling (which can also use a
data-only SIM) but that can get very expensive for both you, and the
people calling you (some MVNOs don't support international calling).

You can rent a local phone number for many countries from Localphone.
There's a setup fee of between $0.99 and $25, then a monthly fee between
$0.99 and $20 <https://www.localphone.com/prices/incoming_numbers> (no
SMS). Combine this with WhatsApp or WeChat and you can get by, albeit at
higher cost and more inconvenience.

[sms]

On 9/9/2022 8:35 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:

Apple has a list of countries that support eSIMs at
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209096>.

A lot of missing countries there. But those countries are getting iPhone
14 models with a physical SIM so it's less of an issue for residents of
those countries. China and Israel are two countries that I notice are
missing, both of which get a lot of foreign tourists and business travelers.

But as others have stated, just because there are carriers in a country
that offer eSIMs to their subscribers, that doesn't mean that eSIMs are
available to visitors.

Apple was a few years too soon in dropping physical SIMs, at least for
U.S. residents that travel.

[nospam]

In article <tfih2v$1hvsp$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> But as others have stated, just because there are carriers in a country
> that offer eSIMs to their subscribers, that doesn't mean that eSIMs are
> available to visitors.

if they support esims for locals, then it's trivial to support esims
for visitors. it's a simple policy change, not a technological hurdle.

given the additional revenue it will bring, it's something that will
happen sooner than later.

> Apple was a few years too soon in dropping physical SIMs, at least for
> U.S. residents that travel.

false. most of the usa is *already* using esims, without a significant
problem.

as expected, you take a feature and spin in into a drawback to fit your
narrative.

[sms]

On 9/10/2022 10:21 AM, sms wrote:

<snip>

> Apple was a few years too soon in dropping physical SIMs, at least for
> U.S. residents that travel.

Also see "US model iPhone 14 won’t work with Chinese carriers" at
<https://technode.com/2022/09/09/us-model-iphone-14-wont-work-with-chinese-carriers/>.

[Hank Rogers]

Good to know. I guess that is in your document now. But I sometimes
wonder about your "document".

I also wonder why nospam doesn't have a "document". He has some
good points. You have some good points too.

I don't know as much as you experts, but shouldn't all contenders
have a document?

Please help nospam and point him to hosting providers, so he can
make a document and we can have more than one document. Surely this
is possible with your help. Please help him.

Thanks for your diligence SMS.

[Chris in Makati]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 06:13:07 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

They do, but they're already getting that revenue by selling physical
prepaid SIM cards. In most airports here the mobile networks have
stands in the arrivals area of airports which sell them.

99.9999% of customers have phones that accept physical cards so why
would they rush to make the additional investment needed to enable
them to provide eSIMs to a miniscule number of Americans who happen to
arrive with a new iPhone that only use eSIMs?

[Hank Rogers]

Yeah, not many americans go to north korea.

[nospam]

In article <rvaqhhpfiet68qg2c...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >>
> >> We would hope so, but I'm sure it will be several more years before a
> >> visitor could get a prepaid eSIM in all (or even most) countries in
> >> this region. So far Singapore is the ONLY country I'm aware of in SE
> >> Asia where you can do that.
> >
> >it's unlikely to be that long. carriers want the additional revenue
> >from visitors.
>
> They do, but they're already getting that revenue by selling physical
> prepaid SIM cards.

true, however, with the iphone 14, a portion of those customers no
longer can use them.

there are already android phones with only esim.

> In most airports here the mobile networks have
> stands in the arrivals area of airports which sell them.

that will migrate to esim, including being able to obtain one online,
which means the person can have access the moment the plane lands.

> 99.9999% of customers have phones that accept physical cards

which means it's a very, very, very minor issue at this time.

> so why
> would they rush to make the additional investment needed to enable
> them to provide eSIMs to a miniscule number of Americans who happen to
> arrive with a new iPhone that only use eSIMs?

because there's more americans visiting than from other countries.

if they already support esims for locals, then it's trivial to offer it
for visitors.

[sms]

On 9/10/2022 5:30 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> 99.9999% of customers have phones that accept physical cards so why
> would they rush to make the additional investment needed to enable
> them to provide eSIMs to a miniscule number of Americans who happen to
> arrive with a new iPhone that only use eSIMs?

Plus, many of those U.S. residents, if they have postpaid service, and
don't care about cost, will simply pay for international roaming, and
not worry about the money.

A travel pass from a U.S. carrier is around $10 per day for 512MB of
high speed data, then the speed is throttled to 2G speed, which is okay
for e-mail but not much else. Also a lot of travelers are on business
and don't care that much about saving $100 or so for their company.

It's more the savvy tourists that prefer to not waste money on high-cost
international roaming, and that want a local phone number in the country
or region that they are visiting, that will be wary of buying a phone
without a physical SIM card slot.

Personally, I found that I was using close to 1GB per day of data when
traveling on my own in Europe and Asia. Fortunately, the prepaid SIM
cards include sufficient data with the option to pay for more.

I started a new Google Doc, "Workarounds for the U.S. iPhone 14 Lack of
a Physical SIM Slot" <https://tinyurl.com/iPhone14eSIMWorkaround>.

[John Gardner]

Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2022 04:08:59 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> In article <1kdlhh58gvahr3d1c...@4ax.com>, Chris in
>> Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I live in SE Asia and although most countries in the region now have
>>> eSIMs they're normally only issued to people with local postpaid
>>> accounts. Very few places have them available for tourists who need a
>>> prepaid SIM to use on short visits to the country.
>>
>> that will change.
>
> We would hope so, but I'm sure it will be several more years before a
> visitor could get a prepaid eSIM in all (or even most) countries in
> this region. So far Singapore is the ONLY country I'm aware of in SE
> Asia where you can do that.
>
>

Looking at my app to buy eSims, Singapore is there as well as Malaysia,
Indonesia and the Philippines.

[Zitelli]

nospam wrote at Thu, 08 Sep 2022 02:52:38 -0400 :

> as usual, apple drives technology forward.

Removing the sim card is driving technology backward, not forward.
The price of the phone didn't even go down as a result, it went up.

Many things you want to do with a sim you can no longer do.

It's good in every way possible, for Apple & carriers.
It's bad in every way possible, for the consumer.

[Your Name]

eSIM are available in New Zealand too, although there are currently
limitations on phone models, plans, etc. depending on which provider
you choose to use.

[andrew]

nospam wrote:

> there are already android phones with only esim.

So what?
What's your logic?

Is it that apple follows the lead from one out of a million android phones?
That because 0.0001% of android phones lack a sim, iPhones shouldn't also?

Why should apple follow the lead of a two dollar phone?

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 11.09.22 um 04:53 schrieb John Gardner:

> Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Looking at my app to buy eSims, Singapore is there as well as Malaysia,
> Indonesia and the Philippines.

The new iPhone 14 will certainly accelerate the adoption of e-SIMS
further globally.
I really do not know how Chris comes to the conclusion Asia is behind
the rest of the world.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 11.09.22 um 03:54 schrieb nospam:

*ROTFLSTC*

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 11.09.22 um 07:06 schrieb Zitelli:

> Removing the sim card is driving technology backward, not forward.
> The price of the phone didn't even go down as a result, it went up.
>
> Many things you want to do with a sim you can no longer do.
>
> It's good in every way possible, for Apple & carriers.
> It's bad in every way possible, for the consumer.

I really hope you are not right but historic evidence points in your
direction.

[nospam]

In article <tfk6kq$781$1...@solani.org>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> The new iPhone 14 will certainly accelerate the adoption of e-SIMS
> further globally.

exactly

[sms]

Pretty much, though there is one scenario where it may be useful.

If you want to use your U.S. phone number via an eSIM, plus use a
data-only international eSIM, you can do that on the U.S. iPhone 14.
Then you can turn off cellular data and voice on the U.S. eSIM and use
Wi-Fi calling, via data, from the data-only international eSIM. On an
iPhone with one physical SIM and one eSIM you’d need a physical SIM for
your U.S. carrier to do this, so the eSIM “slot” remained open for the
data-only international eSIM.

On Android devices, there is a way to use a special physical SIM card
upon which you can load an eSIM (see <https://esim.me/>), but it does
not work on iPhones. There was no need for such a device on an iPhone
since the iPhone already had eSIM capability, but many low-end Android
phones lack eSIM capability. You have to use an App to load the eSIM
onto the physical device and there is no iOS App to do this, and it's
unlikely that Apple would allow such an App.

[Hank Rogers]

The full moon is really working on you, jughead!

[Chris in Makati]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 19:38:14 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 9/10/2022 5:30 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> 99.9999% of customers have phones that accept physical cards so why
>> would they rush to make the additional investment needed to enable
>> them to provide eSIMs to a miniscule number of Americans who happen to
>> arrive with a new iPhone that only use eSIMs?
>
>Plus, many of those U.S. residents, if they have postpaid service, and
>don't care about cost, will simply pay for international roaming, and
>not worry about the money.
>
>A travel pass from a U.S. carrier is around $10 per day for 512MB of
>high speed data, then the speed is throttled to 2G speed, which is okay
>for e-mail but not much else. Also a lot of travelers are on business
>and don't care that much about saving $100 or so for their company.
>
>It's more the savvy tourists that prefer to not waste money on high-cost
>international roaming, and that want a local phone number in the country
>or region that they are visiting, that will be wary of buying a phone
>without a physical SIM card slot.
>
>Personally, I found that I was using close to 1GB per day of data when
>traveling on my own in Europe and Asia. Fortunately, the prepaid SIM
>cards include sufficient data with the option to pay for more.

The difference in the cost of using a local SIM is significantly less
than roaming from your home network.

For example, I was recently in Thailand and got a package that
included 14GB of data for the equivalent of US$3. That lasted for me
the week that I was there, and I still had loads of data left over.

[Chris in Makati]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 21:54:36 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <rvaqhhpfiet68qg2c...@4ax.com>, Chris in
>Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> >>
>> >> We would hope so, but I'm sure it will be several more years before a
>> >> visitor could get a prepaid eSIM in all (or even most) countries in
>> >> this region. So far Singapore is the ONLY country I'm aware of in SE
>> >> Asia where you can do that.
>> >
>> >it's unlikely to be that long. carriers want the additional revenue
>> >from visitors.
>>
>> They do, but they're already getting that revenue by selling physical
>> prepaid SIM cards.
>
>true, however, with the iphone 14, a portion of those customers no
>longer can use them.
>
>there are already android phones with only esim.
>
>> In most airports here the mobile networks have
>> stands in the arrivals area of airports which sell them.
>
>that will migrate to esim, including being able to obtain one online,
>which means the person can have access the moment the plane lands.

No doubt they will eventually, but it will take some time to happen.
That's the point I was making. Right now it would be foolish to travel
overseas with an eSIM-only phone in the expectation of being able to
get a local SIM to use during your visit.

>> 99.9999% of customers have phones that accept physical cards
>
>which means it's a very, very, very minor issue at this time.
>
>> so why
>> would they rush to make the additional investment needed to enable
>> them to provide eSIMs to a miniscule number of Americans who happen to
>> arrive with a new iPhone that only use eSIMs?
>
>because there's more americans visiting than from other countries.

Not so. The majority of visitors are from other parts of the region
and Australia.

[Chris in Makati]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 10:35:38 +0200, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

And I really do not know why Joerg has reading difficulties. Chris
didn't say that Asia was "behind the rest of the world". He said that
most local networks in the region don't yet have prepaid eSIMs
available to visitors. That's a fact.

Yes, many networks have eSIMs available to local customers with
monthly accounts, but that isn't what the discussion is about. The
issue is whether you can travel the world with an eSIM-only phone and
be confident that you'll be able to get a local eSIM wherever you go.

As long as that's not the case then the sensible thing to do it take a
phone that has both an eSIM and a physical SIM slot.

[Chris in Makati]

On 11 Sep 2022 02:53:45 GMT, John Gardner <use...@gardner.host>
wrote:

But are they really local SIMs or are they eSIMs from an international
roaming company? If the latter then the cost would be higher than a
SIM bought from the local network directly.

I live in the Philippines and the local networks here don't yet issue
prepaid eSIMs.

[nospam]

In article <1si0ih9cjatuoj8mi...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> In most airports here the mobile networks have
> >> stands in the arrivals area of airports which sell them.
> >
> >that will migrate to esim, including being able to obtain one online,
> >which means the person can have access the moment the plane lands.
>
> No doubt they will eventually, but it will take some time to happen.

not as much time as you think.

already there are more than 60 countries supported. more will follow.

> That's the point I was making. Right now it would be foolish to travel
> overseas with an eSIM-only phone in the expectation of being able to
> get a local SIM to use during your visit.

it's not foolish at all.

as many as eight different esims can be loaded onto the same iphone,
and easily switching among them.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.09.22 um 13:32 schrieb nospam:

> In article <1si0ih9cjatuoj8mi...@4ax.com>, Chris in
> Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>>> In most airports here the mobile networks have
>>>> stands in the arrivals area of airports which sell them.
>>>
>>> that will migrate to esim, including being able to obtain one online,
>>> which means the person can have access the moment the plane lands.
>>
>> No doubt they will eventually, but it will take some time to happen.
>
> not as much time as you think.
>
> already there are more than 60 countries supported. more will follow.

Sure.
Chris is trying to support his narrative because he obviously does not
like e-SIMs.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.09.22 um 11:56 schrieb Chris in Makati:

> The difference in the cost of using a local SIM is significantly less
> than roaming from your home network.

That is simply not true and expecially not in such an absolut
manner.These times are long over.

Whenever I travel - even overseas - it is already included in my plan.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.09.22 um 11:56 schrieb Chris in Makati:

> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 10:35:38 +0200, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
> wrote:
>> I really do not know how Chris comes to the conclusion Asia is behind
>> the rest of the world.
>
> And I really do not know why Joerg has reading difficulties. Chris
> didn't say that Asia was "behind the rest of the world". He said that

That is exactly what you are claiming by implication. E-sims will soon
be the majority. In a year or two?

And the concept of buying local SIMs when travelling is a weird concept.
BTW: I want to be reached under my usual phone number when I travel.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 11.09.22 um 07:06 schrieb Zitelli:

> nospam wrote at Thu, 08 Sep 2022 02:52:38 -0400 :
>
>> as usual, apple drives technology forward.
>
> Removing the sim card is driving technology backward, not forward.
> The price of the phone didn't even go down as a result, it went up.

Hi Burnelli/Zitelli!

[sms]

On 9/13/2022 2:56 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> As long as that's not the case then the sensible thing to do it take a
> phone that has both an eSIM and a physical SIM slot.

Yes, that's the bottom line.

There are workarounds to the lack of a physical SIM slot for a foreign
prepaid SIM with an actual local phone number, but they are expensive,
somewhat complicated, and SMS can be especially convoluted depending on
your U.S. carrier.

You can receive SMS on a Google Voice number, with a data-only prepaid
foreign SIM, but outgoing texts to non-U.S./Canada numbers are not
possible. Of course if you're using WhatsApp, WeChat, or iMessage,
instead of SMS, then you just use data for those.

<<https://tinyurl.com/iPhone14eSIMWorkaround>>

[sms]

On 9/13/2022 2:56 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> But are they really local SIMs or are they eSIMs from an international
> roaming company? If the latter then the cost would be higher than a
> SIM bought from the local network directly.
>
> I live in the Philippines and the local networks here don't yet issue
> prepaid eSIMs.

The expense is one issue, but those international eSIMs are data-only so
you don't get a local phone number for people to call or text you, or
for you to make calls and send texts.

It you leave your U.S. SIM card (or eSIM) in the phone then you can do
"Wi-Fi" calling and texting using data from the eSIM, but every call or
text to the place that you actually are will be an international call or
text, and not all U.S. carriers and MVNOs support this, and for those
that do it's usually not free. In most cases it's really useful to have
a phone number local to the country or region that you're visiting.

The plus side of those international eSIMs is that you can get them
before you leave your home country so as soon as you arrive at your
destination you have data coverage without having to buy a local SIM. Of
course you can often buy local SIMs online, in advance of your trip, but
that usually costs a little more than buying them when you arrive.

[nospam]

In article <tfqflu$2kshr$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> The expense is one issue, but those international eSIMs are data-only so
> you don't get a local phone number for people to call or text you, or
> for you to make calls and send texts.

someone who actually has and uses an iphone would know that texting
works without cell service, and that any of a number of voip apps would
work for calls.

prepaid physical sims are often data only, so that's not even a good
mischaracterization.

[sms]

On 9/13/2022 2:56 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> The difference in the cost of using a local SIM is significantly less
> than roaming from your home network.

Absolutely. I'm just saying that an U.S. iPhone 14 owner will just have
to pay the high cost of international roaming. It can easily be 10x the
cost of buying a local SIM card. This move by Apple is not appreciated
by those of us that travel internationally at our own expense. Last time
I went to China I had my IT person turn on international roaming on my
iPad. I thought that I was being careful about data usage, using Wi-Fi
with a VPN whenever possible, but it was still over $100 for five days
of travel. I had no opportunity to buy a local SIM card, I was being
shuttled from one event to another with no free time.

[nospam]

In article <tfqg06$2kti6$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> I'm just saying that an U.S. iPhone 14 owner will just have
> to pay the high cost of international roaming.

another long-standing and easily debunked myth. it's not that high
anymore, or alternately, someone could get one or more esims.

> It can easily be 10x the
> cost of buying a local SIM card.

or it can be included for no additional cost, such as what t-mobile
offers.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.09.22 um 19:52 schrieb sms:

> Absolutely. I'm just saying that an U.S. iPhone 14 owner will just have
> to pay the high cost of international roaming. It can easily be 10x the
> cost of buying a local SIM card.

Bullshit. Included in many affordable plans/subscriptions.

[Chris in Makati]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 07:32:24 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <1si0ih9cjatuoj8mi...@4ax.com>, Chris in
>Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> >> In most airports here the mobile networks have
>> >> stands in the arrivals area of airports which sell them.
>> >
>> >that will migrate to esim, including being able to obtain one online,
>> >which means the person can have access the moment the plane lands.
>>
>> No doubt they will eventually, but it will take some time to happen.
>
>not as much time as you think.
>
>already there are more than 60 countries supported. more will follow.

So you mean if you travel today you need to take a time-machine with
you so that you can fast-forward to an unknown point in the future
when eSIMs will be available to tourists in the countries you visit.

>> That's the point I was making. Right now it would be foolish to travel
>> overseas with an eSIM-only phone in the expectation of being able to
>> get a local SIM to use during your visit.
>
>it's not foolish at all.
>
>as many as eight different esims can be loaded onto the same iphone,
>and easily switching among them.

No you can't because eSIMs are not yet available to tourists in most
parts of the world. How many times does this need explaining to you?

[Chris in Makati]

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 18:13:44 +0200, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

Obviously Joerg has a problem with arithmetic as well as reading
comprehension. If there are 60 countries where tourists can get an
eSIM there would be at least 135 where they can't.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 14.09.22 um 05:19 schrieb Chris in Makati:

Advanced math is not your thing.

[nospam]

In article <30i2ih5m0dmlpvb48...@4ax.com>, Chris in

that will change, and the iphone 14 is going to push that. what are you
going to do when other phones follow suit?

also, esims benefit those who don't travel. someone could have multiple
accounts on the same phone and easily switch between them, such as
work/personal/etc.

[nospam]

In article <81i2ih5eu2paboevb...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> already there are more than 60 countries supported. more will follow.
> >
> >Sure.
> >Chris is trying to support his narrative because he obviously does not
> >like e-SIMs.
>
> Obviously Joerg has a problem with arithmetic as well as reading
> comprehension. If there are 60 countries where tourists can get an
> eSIM there would be at least 135 where they can't.

you're incorrectly assuming that every country welcomes the same number
of visitors.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 14.09.22 um 13:19 schrieb nospam:

He is assuming other incorrect things.

[sms]

On 9/13/2022 8:19 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> Obviously Joerg has a problem with arithmetic as well as reading
> comprehension. If there are 60 countries where tourists can get an
> eSIM there would be at least 135 where they can't.

I expect that the next response from our favorite trolls will be along
the lines of "No visitor ever goes to any of those other 135 countries."

[sms]

On 9/13/2022 8:19 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> No you can't because eSIMs are not yet available to tourists in most
> parts of the world. How many times does this need explaining to you?

You can explain it a thousand times but they will never admit the truth!

Meanwhile, there are data-only international eSIMs that work in multiple
countries or regions, that can be used with the U.S. iPhone 14 models.
They're just very expensive, 10-20x the unit cost for data versus local
SIM cards is not uncommon. It's probably cheaper to just pay for
international roaming on your U.S. carrier, if they offer it. Not many
MVNOs offer international data, but some do, like Xfinity Mobile. It's
around $10 per day from most carriers for 512MB of high speed data per
day, that's about $20 per GB.

Prepaid physical SIM cards, with a local phone number, can be purchased
in advance on Amazon or from other sources. Expect to pay $1-2/GB of
data. When you get to your destination they're less expensive, but it's
sometimes nice to have service as soon as you arrive.

See Workarounds for the U.S. iPhone 14 Lack of a Physical SIM Slot
<https://tinyurl.com/iPhone14eSIMWorkaround>.

[Your Name]

On 2022-09-11 05:06:31 +0000, Zitelli said:
> nospam wrote at Thu, 08 Sep 2022 02:52:38 -0400 :
>>
>> as usual, apple drives technology forward.
>
> Removing the sim card is driving technology backward, not forward.
> The price of the phone didn't even go down as a result, it went up.
>

> Many things you want to do with a sim you can no longer do.
>
> It's good in every way possible, for Apple & carriers.
> It's bad in every way possible, for the consumer.

Apple's response to the eSIM critics ... all of which assumes you can
actually get an eSIM in the country your travelling to ...


Apple Promotes Benefits of Using iPhone 14
With eSIM While Traveling Abroad
------------------------------------------
Amid criticism from some customers regarding the removal
of the SIM card tray on all iPhone 14 models sold in the
United States, Apple today published a new support
document outlining various "options and benefits" for
using eSIMs while traveling abroad.

Apple says an eSIM is more secure than a physical SIM
since it cannot be removed from an iPhone that is lost or
stolen. Apple also says that eSIMs eliminate the need to
obtain, carry, and swap physical SIM cards, or wait for
them to arrive by mail.

The support document notes that the iPhone XS and newer
can store eight or more eSIMs, while the iPhone 13 and
newer can have two eSIMs active at the same time.

"This could, for example, include one eSIM for your home
and another eSIM for the place you're visiting," the
support document explains. "You can swap which of your
stored eSIMs are active simply by changing your
selections in Settings."

The support document includes information for customers
looking to roam internationally with their existing
carrier, purchase an eSIM from a local carrier while
traveling abroad, or purchase a prepaid data eSIM from a
worldwide service provider.
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213448>

Apple says customers can activate an unlocked iPhone 14
model purchased in the United States with over 400
carriers that support eSIM on the iPhone in 100 markets
around the world. Apple adds that many worldwide service
providers also offer prepaid eSIM data plans for
long-term use in countries around the world.
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209096>

Some people have expressed concerns about eSIM
availability while traveling abroad with eSIM-only
iPhone 14 models from the United States.

In his iPhone 14 Pro camera review, travel photographer
Austin Mann said he was "a bit concerned about the
practicality of an eSIM-only approach for travelers with
US iPhones who frequently visit the developing world,"
adding that he usually purchases a local SIM card in
countries where he travels to so that it is easier and
cheaper to communicate with people within the country.
Mann said he would be thrilled to toss out his collection
of physical SIM cards, but said he has been unable to
figure out how to sign up for an eSIM line in East Africa,
where he plans to travel to next summer.
<https://www.austinmann.com/trek/iphone-14-pro-camera-review-scotland>

The support document is unlikely to assuage disappointed
customers, but it does serve as a helpful resource for using
eSIM technology.


<https://www.macrumors.com/2022/09/14/apple-promotes-esim-benefits-for-iphone/>

[Chris in Makati]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2022 07:19:52 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <30i2ih5m0dmlpvb48...@4ax.com>, Chris in
>Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>> >as many as eight different esims can be loaded onto the same iphone,
>> >and easily switching among them.
>>
>> No you can't because eSIMs are not yet available to tourists in most
>> parts of the world. How many times does this need explaining to you?
>
>that will change, and the iphone 14 is going to push that. what are you
>going to do when other phones follow suit?

Only iPhone 14 models sold in the USA. In the rest of the world
they'll still have a physical SIM slot, for exactly the reason we've
been trying to get you to understand.

But you've consistently failed to address the basic question here, so
one more time, this is the issue. In the case where a visitor to a
country today needs a local phone number while he's there so he can
receive calls from his local contacts without them having to make an
international call. How is an eSIM-only phone going to be of any use
when only physical SIMs are available in that location?

And just to make it quite clear. I'd much prefer to use eSIMs over
physical ones. I travel with a small plastic bag of SIMs and they can
easily get lost or damaged. But the reality today is that there is no
other option in most countries.

[nospam]

In article <94f5ihpihdbeueg5r...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> >as many as eight different esims can be loaded onto the same iphone,
> >> >and easily switching among them.
> >>
> >> No you can't because eSIMs are not yet available to tourists in most
> >> parts of the world. How many times does this need explaining to you?
> >
> >that will change, and the iphone 14 is going to push that. what are you
> >going to do when other phones follow suit?
>
> Only iPhone 14 models sold in the USA. In the rest of the world
> they'll still have a physical SIM slot, for exactly the reason we've
> been trying to get you to understand.

what you don't understand is that esim use in the usa is already
significant.

granted, it's not as widely used in other countries, which is why esim
is only the usa, right now. that will change.

> But you've consistently failed to address the basic question here, so
> one more time, this is the issue. In the case where a visitor to a
> country today needs a local phone number while he's there so he can
> receive calls from his local contacts without them having to make an
> international call. How is an eSIM-only phone going to be of any use
> when only physical SIMs are available in that location?

i've addressed that issue.

nobody denies that a small number of people will be temporarily
inconvenienced, which is something that happens with every transition.

new sims were required for 4g/lte and again for 5g. there was also the
mini/micro/nano sim update, which could be mitigated with a cutter
(although nanosims are slightly thinner so not all phones could use a
cut sim). usb-c needed dongles for a couple of years. usb 3 needed new
cables for maximum speed. the list goes on.

you're also incorrectly assuming that everyone travels to foreign lands
every day. they do not. it's actually a relatively small number.

they can bring a different phone, which has the advantage of being
'clean' just in case customs decides to search it. many people already
do exactly that, and in fact, also bring a different laptop and other
electronics. it's unfortunate, but it's the reality.

you're also likely unaware that back in the 3g days, two of the then
four major usa carriers (sprint & verizon) used cdma instead of gsm,
which meant that those users could not roam in just about anywhere in
the world. to solve that, both carriers offered international phones
which had both cdma *and* a sim slot for overseas. that meant that
those who travel a lot had to buy the 'international phone' rather than
the phone they actually wanted.

> And just to make it quite clear. I'd much prefer to use eSIMs over
> physical ones. I travel with a small plastic bag of SIMs and they can
> easily get lost or damaged.

exactly why apple has been supporting esims for several years and also
a physical universal apple sim for roughly a decade.

> But the reality today is that there is no
> other option in most countries.

once again you're incorrectly assuming every country is equivalent.

[Chris in Makati]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 08:57:04 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>> But you've consistently failed to address the basic question here, so
>> one more time, this is the issue. In the case where a visitor to a
>> country today needs a local phone number while he's there so he can
>> receive calls from his local contacts without them having to make an
>> international call. How is an eSIM-only phone going to be of any use
>> when only physical SIMs are available in that location?
>
>i've addressed that issue.
>
>nobody denies that a small number of people will be temporarily
>inconvenienced, which is something that happens with every transition.

After a lot of trolling you've finally admitted there is a problem.
Which takes us back to the very first post I made on this subject a
week ago, and which you took issue with. I'm glad you've finally come
to see the sense in it.

On Fri, 09 Sep 2022 11:55:57 +0800, Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com>
wrote:
>
>Right now, I definitely wouldn't travel overseas without a phone that
>had a physical SIM card slot available,

[nospam]

In article <jr38ihhh4rrsh4vhs...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >
> >nobody denies that a small number of people will be temporarily
> >inconvenienced, which is something that happens with every transition.
>
> After a lot of trolling you've finally admitted there is a problem.

i never said there wasn't a problem. however, it's nowhere near as big
as some try to claim.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 16.09.22 um 08:02 schrieb Chris in Makati:

> On Thu, 15 Sep 2022 08:57:04 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>> But you've consistently failed to address the basic question here, so
>>> one more time, this is the issue. In the case where a visitor to a
>>> country today needs a local phone number while he's there so he can
>>> receive calls from his local contacts without them having to make an
>>> international call. How is an eSIM-only phone going to be of any use
>>> when only physical SIMs are available in that location?
>>
>> i've addressed that issue.
>>
>> nobody denies that a small number of people will be temporarily
>> inconvenienced, which is something that happens with every transition.
>
> After a lot of trolling you've finally admitted there is a problem.

There is absolutely no problem at all:

https://www.pctipp.ch/praxis/iphone/iphone-14-esim-2798499.html

Tourists with iPhones from the US are welcome in Switzerland and in
Europe in general.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 16.09.22 um 13:03 schrieb nospam:

A couple of hundred ourists compared to millions of useres globally?
Ridiculus discussion.

[zall]

Not if they are illegals.

[sms]

On 9/15/2022 11:02 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> After a lot of trolling you've finally admitted there is a problem.
> Which takes us back to the very first post I made on this subject a
> week ago, and which you took issue with. I'm glad you've finally come
> to see the sense in it.

Yes, that's good to see that he now understands.

I'm sure that you understand that when our favorite trolls try to defend
the decontenting of a feature that they don't actually believe what they
are posting, but for some reason feel obligated to defend every design
decision that Apple makes. If a feature is removed it's because no one
needed it. If a decontented feature comes back in a newer model, or
newer OS version, they'll have a story about that too.

The fact that Apple decontented the physical SIM slot _only_ in the U.S.
speaks volumes about why it is desirable or required in many other
countries.

And yes, there are workarounds for the lack of physical SIM slot, but in
many cases they are expensive and annoying.

See Workarounds for the U.S. iPhone 14 Lack of a Physical SIM Slot at
<https://tinyurl.com/iPhone14eSIMWorkaround>

[nospam]

In article <tg2g6e$3tn9q$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> The fact that Apple decontented the physical SIM slot _only_ in the U.S.
> speaks volumes about why it is desirable or required in many other
> countries.

nope. it only means that esim support in the usa is widespread.

apple and some carriers have been activating esims for new iphones in
the usa for at least a year, if not longer, with almost no complaints.

as usual, you're making it into a far bigger problem than it actually
is.

[zall]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 04:44:29 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> On 9/15/2022 11:02 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> After a lot of trolling you've finally admitted there is a problem.
>> Which takes us back to the very first post I made on this subject a
>> week ago, and which you took issue with. I'm glad you've finally come
>> to see the sense in it.
>
> Yes, that's good to see that he now understands.
>
> I'm sure that you understand that when our favorite trolls try to defend
> the decontenting of a feature that they don't actually believe what they
> are posting, but for some reason feel obligated to defend every design
> decision that Apple makes. If a feature is removed it's because no one
> needed it. If a decontented feature comes back in a newer model, or
> newer OS version, they'll have a story about that too.
>
> The fact that Apple decontented the physical SIM slot _only_ in the U.S.
> speaks volumes about why it is desirable or required in many other
> countries.

No, that understandably they are slower to have implemented esims.

[Your Name]

On 2022-09-16 22:21:05 +0000, zall said:

> On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 04:44:29 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 9/15/2022 11:02 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> After a lot of trolling you've finally admitted there is a problem.
>>> Which takes us back to the very first post I made on this subject a
>>> week ago, and which you took issue with. I'm glad you've finally come
>>> to see the sense in it.
>>
>> Yes, that's good to see that he now understands.
>>
>> I'm sure that you understand that when our favorite trolls try to
>> defend the decontenting of a feature that they don't actually believe
>> what they are posting, but for some reason feel obligated to defend
>> every design decision that Apple makes. If a feature is removed it's
>> because no one needed it. If a decontented feature comes back in a
>> newer model, or newer OS version, they'll have a story about that too.
>>
>> The fact that Apple decontented the physical SIM slot _only_ in the
>> U.S. speaks volumes about why it is desirable or required in many other
>> countries.
>
> No, that understandably they are slower to have implemented esims.

And yet the US still (mostly) uses "ancient" credit / bank card
technology in their store checkouts. :-)

Apple has a habit of dropping stuff and forcing the issue, then usually
everyone else copies them (often after poking fun at Apple for doing
it). Try finding any new computer with a built-in floppy disk drive as
standard, even a built-in CD/DVD drive is very rare as standard these
days - both are non-existant on Macs of course.

[zall]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 12:44:58 +1000, Your Name <Your...@yourisp.com> wrote:

> On 2022-09-16 22:21:05 +0000, zall said:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 04:44:29 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/15/2022 11:02 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> After a lot of trolling you've finally admitted there is a problem.
>>>> Which takes us back to the very first post I made on this subject a
>>>> week ago, and which you took issue with. I'm glad you've finally come
>>>> to see the sense in it.
>>> Yes, that's good to see that he now understands.
>>> I'm sure that you understand that when our favorite trolls try to
>>> defend the decontenting of a feature that they don't actually believe
>>> what they are posting, but for some reason feel obligated to defend
>>> every design decision that Apple makes. If a feature is removed it's
>>> because no one needed it. If a decontented feature comes back in a
>>> newer model, or newer OS version, they'll have a story about that too.
>>> The fact that Apple decontented the physical SIM slot _only_ in the
>>> U.S. speaks volumes about why it is desirable or required in many
>>> other countries.
>> No, that understandably they are slower to have implemented esims.
>
> And yet the US still (mostly) uses "ancient" credit / bank card
> technology in their store checkouts. :-)

Yeah, they are surprisingly variable like that. But that is more
with keeping the older technology like checks commonly used
by many, rather than the newer stuff like Apple Pay and Google
Pay not be available if you want to use it.

> Apple has a habit of dropping stuff and forcing the issue,

Usually for a good reason like with the analog audio jack.

> then usually everyone else copies them (often after poking fun at Apple
> for doing it). Try finding any new computer with a built-in floppy disk
> drive as standard, even a built-in CD/DVD drive is very rare as standard
> these days - both are non-existant on Macs of course.

But that wasn't driven by Apple, more that that dinosaur stuff
like floppy disks became pointless when it was so cheap and
easy to use USB sticks instead.

Quite a bit of apple stuff never took off and was eventually abandoned
even by apple.

[Your Name]

At the time, USB sticks were relatively new and expensive, and the CD
drive Apple put in the iMac couldn't burn CDs. USB itself was fairly
new and all the older equipment didn't have USB sockets. Basically
there was no cheap or easy way to move files to / from an original iMac
until everyone else caught up.

> Quite a bit of apple stuff never took off and was eventually abandoned
> even by apple.

Apple drops stuff all the time. They also have a ton of patents for
ideas they'll never use - mainly to stop anyone else using the idea
without paying Apple.

[nospam]

In article <tg3kqe$1ofd$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name

<Your...@YourISP.com> wrote:

> At the time, USB sticks were relatively new and expensive, and the CD
> drive Apple put in the iMac couldn't burn CDs. USB itself was fairly
> new and all the older equipment didn't have USB sockets. Basically
> there was no cheap or easy way to move files to / from an original iMac
> until everyone else caught up.

file sharing was trivial to set up, either via ethernet or the older
local talk with phone cord.

> Apple drops stuff all the time. They also have a ton of patents for
> ideas they'll never use - mainly to stop anyone else using the idea
> without paying Apple.

so do other companies.

[sms]

On 9/16/2022 8:17 PM, zall wrote:

<snip>

> Yeah, they are surprisingly variable like that. But that is more
> with keeping the older technology like checks commonly used
> by many, rather than the newer stuff like Apple Pay and Google
> Pay not be available if you want to use it.

I'd say that about 80% of stores now take NFC payments like Apple Pay
and Google Pay, but there are some big holdouts like Walmart, Home
Depot, Lowes, and Kroger. Winco doesn't take credit cards at all, I
don't know if they'd accept NFC payment tied to a debit card.

I actually paid somewhere last week that still had only a magstripe reader.

Some chain stores used to take NFC payments but stopped for financial
reasons. The Ace Hardware franchise closest to me stopped taking NFC
payments of any kind when Ace became a "3% cashback" Apple Pay
participant. Apparently the franchise store is expected to absorb that
extra 1%.

> Usually for a good reason like with the analog audio jack.

Yes, the "good reason" was to promote the sale of Air Pods. It's
actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
reasons, not just related to actual headphones, and the Lighting to
headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
doesn't restore all the lost functionality. Then other companies think,
"wow, I can save ten cents per phone by getting rid of it too."

[nospam]

In article <tg4kj6$66ga$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> On 9/16/2022 8:17 PM, zall wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Yeah, they are surprisingly variable like that. But that is more
> > with keeping the older technology like checks commonly used
> > by many, rather than the newer stuff like Apple Pay and Google
> > Pay not be available if you want to use it.
>
> I'd say that about 80% of stores now take NFC payments like Apple Pay
> and Google Pay, but there are some big holdouts like Walmart, Home
> Depot, Lowes, and Kroger.

according to apple, it's over 90% of merchants.

that number is also misleading since nearly every merchant that people
actually shop at supports contactless payments. card issuers are
replacing cards with contactless versions, either by request or when
the current one expires.

the holdouts are either merchants who have their own competing mobile
payment system (e.g., walmart pay) or merchants who can't justify
upgrading their payment systems. one example of the latter are
restaurants, where in the usa, the card is given to the server to
process (and who doesn't care about swipe/dip/tap), versus a payment
terminal being brought to the patron, as is done elsewhere.

> Winco doesn't take credit cards at all, I
> don't know if they'd accept NFC payment tied to a debit card.

no need to guess. that's easy to find out.

> I actually paid somewhere last week that still had only a magstripe reader.

there are some merchants that don't do enough business to justify
upgrading their payment system for what is essentially no benefit. what
they have works, so why change it.

> Some chain stores used to take NFC payments but stopped for financial
> reasons. The Ace Hardware franchise closest to me stopped taking NFC
> payments of any kind when Ace became a "3% cashback" Apple Pay
> participant. Apparently the franchise store is expected to absorb that
> extra 1%.

that's not how credit card rewards work.

merchants do *not* pay extra for rewards offered by the bank. they are
a bonus for what is effectively advertising to get customers to go to a
particular merchant and buy stuff there.

> > Usually for a good reason like with the analog audio jack.
> Yes, the "good reason" was to promote the sale of Air Pods.

that is another of your easily debunked myths.

apple continued to include headphones that plugged into the lightning
port *and* also included an adapter for those who wanted to use their
existing analog headphones.

*nothing* extra needed to be purchased.

further, airpods did not need any promotion to be sold. when they were
introduced, they were backordered for many months, and people used them
with iphones and other devices that *had* an analog headphone jack.

> It's
> actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
> reasons, not just related to actual headphones,

bullshit. wired headphones plug directly into the phone without issue.
bluetooth headphones also work without issue, from many different
manufacturers.

> and the Lighting to
> headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
> doesn't restore all the lost functionality.

no adapter is needed with compatible headphones, which were included
until just recently because nearly everyone has a set.

everything else that was once done via the headphone jack can be done
more reliably and more effectively via lightning/usb-c or wirelessly,
and in some cases, directly with no additional hardware, such as
accepting payments (another ios-only feature).

[zall]

On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 00:11:48 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> On 9/16/2022 8:17 PM, zall wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Yeah, they are surprisingly variable like that. But that is more
>> with keeping the older technology like checks commonly used
>> by many, rather than the newer stuff like Apple Pay and Google
>> Pay not be available if you want to use it.
>
> I'd say that about 80% of stores now take NFC payments like Apple Pay
> and Google Pay, but there are some big holdouts like Walmart, Home
> Depot, Lowes, and Kroger. Winco doesn't take credit cards at all, I
> don't know if they'd accept NFC payment tied to a debit card.
>
> I actually paid somewhere last week that still had only a magstripe
> reader.
>
> Some chain stores used to take NFC payments but stopped for financial
> reasons. The Ace Hardware franchise closest to me stopped taking NFC
> payments of any kind when Ace became a "3% cashback" Apple Pay
> participant. Apparently the franchise store is expected to absorb that
> extra 1%.
>
>> Usually for a good reason like with the analog audio jack.

> Yes, the "good reason" was to promote the sale of Air Pods.

No, it is also to make the phone waterproof.

> It's actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
> reasons, not just related to actual headphones, and the Lighting to
> headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
> doesn't restore all the lost functionality.

But bluetooth works much better than any wired connection.

> Then other companies think, "wow, I can save ten cents per phone by
> getting rid of it too."

No, they realised that bluetooth works much better than any wired
connection.

[sms]

On 9/17/2022 1:28 PM, zall wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 00:11:48 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 9/16/2022 8:17 PM, zall wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Yeah, they are surprisingly variable like that. But that is more
>>> with keeping the older technology like checks commonly used
>>> by many, rather than the newer stuff like Apple Pay and Google
>>> Pay not be available if you want to use it.
>>
>> I'd say that about 80% of stores now take NFC payments like Apple Pay
>> and Google Pay, but there are some big holdouts like Walmart, Home
>> Depot, Lowes, and Kroger. Winco doesn't take credit cards at all, I
>> don't know if they'd accept NFC payment tied to a debit card.
>>
>> I actually paid somewhere last week that still had only a magstripe
>> reader.
>>
>> Some chain stores used to take NFC payments but stopped for financial
>> reasons. The Ace Hardware franchise closest to me stopped taking NFC
>> payments of any kind when Ace became a "3% cashback" Apple Pay
>> participant. Apparently the franchise store is expected to absorb that
>> extra 1%.
>>
>>> Usually for a good reason like with the analog audio jack.
>
>> Yes, the "good reason" was to promote the sale of Air Pods.
>
> No, it is also to make the phone waterproof.

There are plenty of IP68 waterproof phones that have a headphone jack,
so that wasn't a reason. I have a Samsung Note 9 that has a headphone
jack and a MicroSD card slot that is IP68 rated. Surely Apple could have
achieved the same thing if they'd wanted to.

>> It's actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
>> reasons, not just related to actual headphones, and the Lighting to
>> headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
>> doesn't restore all the lost functionality.
>
> But bluetooth works much better than any wired connection.

It works okay for audio-only. though the audio quality is not as good as
a wired connection. You can use an external audiophile-quality-DAC if
you're concerned about audio quality.

The annoying thing about Bluetooth audio is when you're using it when
watching videos and the Bluetooth lag makes the audio not synced with
the video.

[nospam]

In article <tg5ba4$882v$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> >> Yes, the "good reason" was to promote the sale of Air Pods.
> >
> > No, it is also to make the phone waterproof.
>
> There are plenty of IP68 waterproof phones that have a headphone jack,
> so that wasn't a reason.

it makes it easier and was one of the reasons

one of the main reasons was to free up space for an edge-to-edge
display, without the bezels.

another major reason was elimination of the most common failure mode.

> >> It's actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
> >> reasons, not just related to actual headphones, and the Lighting to
> >> headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
> >> doesn't restore all the lost functionality.
> >
> > But bluetooth works much better than any wired connection.
>
> It works okay for audio-only. though the audio quality is not as good as
> a wired connection.

that is false.

bluetooth can be as good or better than wired, depending on the
headphones.

the method of connection is also not anything will matter with the
usual wired headphones people actually use, in environments where a
difference could not even be heard (e.g., commuting on a bus or train,
jogging, etc.)

> You can use an external audiophile-quality-DAC if
> you're concerned about audio quality.

that requires lightning or usb-c, not an analog headphone jack.

those who do use audiophile grade headphones don't care about the lack
of an analog headphone jack since they weren't using it.

yet another reason to remove it.

> The annoying thing about Bluetooth audio is when you're using it when
> watching videos and the Bluetooth lag makes the audio not synced with
> the video.

that's not an issue with iphones (or other apple products for that
matter).

[zall]

But when they have realised that wireless phones make
a lot more sense, it clearly is the reason.

> I have a Samsung Note 9 that has a headphone jack and a MicroSD card
> slot that is IP68 rated. Surely Apple could have achieved the same thing
> if they'd wanted to.

But it makes no sense to have wired phones anymore.

>>> It's actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
>>> reasons, not just related to actual headphones, and the Lighting to
>>> headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
>>> doesn't restore all the lost functionality.
>> But bluetooth works much better than any wired connection.
>
> It works okay for audio-only. though the audio quality is not as good as
> a wired connection.

Wrong.

> You can use an external audiophile-quality-DAC if you're concerned about
> audio quality.
>
> The annoying thing about Bluetooth audio is when you're using it when
> watching videos and the Bluetooth lag makes the audio not synced with
> the video.

Trivial to fix.

[sms]

On 9/17/2022 1:39 PM, sms wrote:

<snip>

> It works okay for audio-only. though the audio quality is not as good as
> a wired connection. You can use an external audiophile-quality-DAC if
> you're concerned about audio quality.

A good article about audio quality at
<https://www.techradar.com/features/lightning-be-gone-why-i-cannot-wait-for-usb-c-music-on-my-iphone>.

Of course many people will insist that no one expects high-quality audio
from a phone, but that's not really true. Many people want to use their
phone as an audio source for their component stereos.

[Your Name]

Nope. A current tech wired connection will *always* beat a current tech
wireless one in terms of speed and reliability.

[nospam]

In article <tg5dpe$8fdu$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:


>
> A good article about audio quality at
>
> <https://www.techradar.com/features/lightning-be-gone-why-i-cannot-wait-for-us
> b-c-music-on-my-iphone>.

that article is not about audio quality but rather a thinly veiled ad.

what it fails to mention is that there are lightning dacs available.
usb-c is *not* required.

> Of course many people will insist that no one expects high-quality audio
> from a phone, but that's not really true.

very few make that claim because it's not even remotely true.

lossless audio and high bit rate audio are supported (not that anyone
can hear a difference but that's another story).

> Many people want to use their
> phone as an audio source for their component stereos.

also not very many.

most commonly, people use wireless speakers, such as sonos, homeod and
others.

for those who use their home sound system, they normally use something
that's always connected, such as a computer or a set top box.

using a phone with a home sound system would invariably be used
wirelessly since most people aren't going to want to deal with
connecting their phone every time they want to listen to something and
then unplug it when they want to go somewhere.

[nospam]

In article <tg5ech$1vh9$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name

<Your...@YourISP.com> wrote:

> Nope. A current tech wired connection will *always* beat a current tech
> wireless one in terms of speed and reliability.

except when it doesn't.

[sms]

On 9/17/2022 2:17 PM, zall wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 06:39:30 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>> It works okay for audio-only. though the audio quality is not as good
>> as a wired connection.
>
> Wrong.

Wow, you have a lot to learn! Start here:
<https://www.soundguys.com/ultimate-guide-to-bluetooth-headphones-20019/> and
<https://www.lifewire.com/what-to-know-about-bluetooth-3134591>.

If the iPhone supported the aptX HD codec that would help with Bluetooth
sound quality, but they only support the lower quality AAC codec for
now. They'd have to license the aptX HD codec from Qualcomm and that's a
cost that they don't want to incur.

[nospam]

In article <tg5hq5$8que$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> >> It works okay for audio-only. though the audio quality is not as good
> >> as a wired connection.
> >
> > Wrong.
>
> Wow, you have a lot to learn! Start here:

yes you do.

> If the iPhone supported the aptX HD codec that would help with Bluetooth
> sound quality, but they only support the lower quality AAC codec for
> now.

apple streams aac directly to airpods without an interim conversion.

aptx requires a conversion from aac to uncompressed to aptx, which is
then sent to the headphones, thereby incurring generational losses.

> They'd have to license the aptX HD codec from Qualcomm and that's a
> cost that they don't want to incur.

because it offers no benefit over what they have.

it's also not as good as lc3, which will be available soon in ios 16.x
and available later with android 13.

[Chris]

zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 00:11:48 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
>> reasons, not just related to actual headphones, and the Lighting to
>> headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
>> doesn't restore all the lost functionality.
>
> But bluetooth works much better than any wired connection.

A wired connection wouldn't consistently choose to connect to a different
output. You know exactly where the sound is going with wired headphones.

With BT my phone always chooses to connect to the car whenever my wife
pulls into the drive. So one second I'm listening to a podcast in the house
and the next the phone decides the car needs to hear it.

I wish there was a way to control the preferred output as there clearly is
one and currently it's the car.

[nospam]

In article <tg5kcu$918p$1...@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > But bluetooth works much better than any wired connection.
>
> A wired connection wouldn't consistently choose to connect to a different
> output. You know exactly where the sound is going with wired headphones.
>
> With BT my phone always chooses to connect to the car whenever my wife
> pulls into the drive. So one second I'm listening to a podcast in the house
> and the next the phone decides the car needs to hear it.
>
> I wish there was a way to control the preferred output as there clearly is
> one and currently it's the car.

in settings, tap the i icon for the airpods and change this setting:
<https://forums.macrumors.com/data/attachments/1055/1055414-9e93ab2f9447
bec4e98678b86425c947.jpg>

[Hank Rogers]

Link seems to be half assed. try this:

https://forums.macrumors.com/data/attachments/1055/1055414-9e93ab2f9447bec4e98678b86425c947.jpg

[zall]

On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 09:14:38 +1000, Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 00:11:48 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It's actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
>>> reasons, not just related to actual headphones, and the Lighting to
>>> headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
>>> doesn't restore all the lost functionality.
>>
>> But bluetooth works much better than any wired connection.
>
> A wired connection wouldn't consistently choose to connect to a different
> output.

Mine never do that.

> You know exactly where the sound is going with wired headphones.

And get tangled in the wires and have them fail.

> With BT my phone always chooses to connect to the car whenever my wife
> pulls into the drive. So one second I'm listening to a podcast in the
> house
> and the next the phone decides the car needs to hear it.

Then you need a better bluetooth system.

> I wish there was a way to control the preferred output as there clearly
> is
> one and currently it's the car.

Then you need a better bluetooth system.

[nospam]

In article <UruVK.545542$BKL8....@fx15.iad>, Hank Rogers

<ha...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> >
> > in settings, tap the i icon for the airpods and change this setting:
> > <https://forums.macrumors.com/data/attachments/1055/1055414-9e93ab2f9447
> > bec4e98678b86425c947.jpg>
> >
>
> Link seems to be half assed.

it's not. the link has proper delimiters in full compliance with the
rfcs. the problem is your newsreader.

> try this:
>
> https://forums.macrumors.com/data/attachments/1055/1055414-9e93ab2f9447bec4e98678b86425c947.jpg
>

that lacks proper delimiters and will break.

[Hank Rogers]

Then there is a problem with your news client. Did you actually try it?

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 18.09.22 um 03:57 schrieb nospam:

>> https://forums.macrumors.com/data/attachments/1055/1055414-9e93ab2f9447bec4e98678b86425c947.jpg
>>
>
> that lacks proper delimiters and will break.

Works very well. :-)
But your preposter is a bloody beginner anyway.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

[Chris]

Not airpods.

Also it's the phone not the headphones that's the issue. The phone
disconnect the headphones in favour of the car.

[sms]

Unfortunately, Bluetooth doesn't directly allow for prioritization
rules. This issue has been coming up over and over again for many many
years. Try removing all Bluetooth pairings then starting over with your
Bluetooth headphones paired first, and your wife's car last. But then
when you're in her car, wanting to connect to her sound system, if you
have the headphones in the car it will connect to the headphones first.

On Android, there's a paid app "Bluetooth Auto Connect" (and it's not
inexpensive or a one-time purchase), that allows some prioritization of
Bluetooth devices
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bluetooth.auto.connect>.
There's also an awful free version.

[Chris]

zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 09:14:38 +1000, Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 00:11:48 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
>>>> reasons, not just related to actual headphones, and the Lighting to
>>>> headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
>>>> doesn't restore all the lost functionality.
>>>
>>> But bluetooth works much better than any wired connection.
>>
>> A wired connection wouldn't consistently choose to connect to a different
>> output.
>
> Mine never do that.

Mine does on my iphone.

>> You know exactly where the sound is going with wired headphones.
>
> And get tangled in the wires and have them fail.

Wireless headphones get lost and the batteries wear out.

>> With BT my phone always chooses to connect to the car whenever my wife
>> pulls into the drive. So one second I'm listening to a podcast in the
>> house
>> and the next the phone decides the car needs to hear it.
>
> Then you need a better bluetooth system.
>
>> I wish there was a way to control the preferred output as there clearly
>> is
>> one and currently it's the car.
>
> Then you need a better bluetooth system.

I agree. But this is intrinsic to how BT works.

[nospam]

In article <WLwVK.29929$0qy7....@fx40.iad>, Hank Rogers

it was ok when you posted it but it's now broken.

meanwhile, the one that is properly delimited with <> works fine,
despite it spanning two lines, because as i said, it's compliant with
the rfcs for urls.

it is also not limited to newsreaders. the delimiters helps other apps
to detect that it's a url and make it clickable.

[nospam]

In article <tg72vn$hfna$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> Unfortunately, Bluetooth doesn't directly allow for prioritization
> rules.

it does with apple products.

[zall]

On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 22:44:51 +1000, Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 09:14:38 +1000, Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 00:11:48 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
>>>>> reasons, not just related to actual headphones, and the Lighting to
>>>>> headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
>>>>> doesn't restore all the lost functionality.
>>>>
>>>> But bluetooth works much better than any wired connection.
>>>
>>> A wired connection wouldn't consistently choose to connect to a
>>> different
>>> output.
>>
>> Mine never do that.
>
> Mine does on my iphone.

Then you need better headphones.

>>> You know exactly where the sound is going with wired headphones.
>>
>> And get tangled in the wires and have them fail.
>
> Wireless headphones get lost

So do wired ones.

> and the batteries wear out.

So does the wiring with wired ones.

>>> With BT my phone always chooses to connect to the car whenever my wife
>>> pulls into the drive. So one second I'm listening to a podcast in the
>>> house
>>> and the next the phone decides the car needs to hear it.
>>
>> Then you need a better bluetooth system.
>>
>>> I wish there was a way to control the preferred output as there clearly
>>> is
>>> one and currently it's the car.
>>
>> Then you need a better bluetooth system.
>
> I agree. But this is intrinsic to how BT works.

Nope.

[Chris]

zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 22:44:51 +1000, Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 09:14:38 +1000, Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 00:11:48 +1000, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's actually very annoying, to not have a headphone jack for several
>>>>>> reasons, not just related to actual headphones, and the Lighting to
>>>>>> headphone jack or USB-C to Headphone jack adapters are a kluge that
>>>>>> doesn't restore all the lost functionality.
>>>>>
>>>>> But bluetooth works much better than any wired connection.
>>>>
>>>> A wired connection wouldn't consistently choose to connect to a
>>>> different
>>>> output.
>>>
>>> Mine never do that.
>>
>> Mine does on my iphone.
>
> Then you need better headphones.
>
>>>> You know exactly where the sound is going with wired headphones.
>>>
>>> And get tangled in the wires and have them fail.
>>
>> Wireless headphones get lost
>
> So do wired ones.
>
>> and the batteries wear out.
>
> So does the wiring with wired ones.

Right. So you agree that BT is not universally better than wired.

>>>> With BT my phone always chooses to connect to the car whenever my wife
>>>> pulls into the drive. So one second I'm listening to a podcast in the
>>>> house
>>>> and the next the phone decides the car needs to hear it.
>>>
>>> Then you need a better bluetooth system.
>>>
>>>> I wish there was a way to control the preferred output as there clearly
>>>> is
>>>> one and currently it's the car.
>>>
>>> Then you need a better bluetooth system.
>>
>> I agree. But this is intrinsic to how BT works.
>
> Nope.

Feel free to let me know how to prioritise my BT outputs.

[zall]

Wrong given that you are FAR less likely to fuck bluetooth headphones
by breaking the cabling.

>>>>> With BT my phone always chooses to connect to the car whenever my
>>>>> wife
>>>>> pulls into the drive. So one second I'm listening to a podcast in the
>>>>> house
>>>>> and the next the phone decides the car needs to hear it.
>>>>
>>>> Then you need a better bluetooth system.
>>>>
>>>>> I wish there was a way to control the preferred output as there
>>>>> clearly
>>>>> is
>>>>> one and currently it's the car.
>>>>
>>>> Then you need a better bluetooth system.
>>>
>>> I agree. But this is intrinsic to how BT works.
>>
>> Nope.
>
> Feel free to let me know how to prioritise my BT outputs.

Ask nospam, I don't need to bother but iphones can do that.

[Chris]

zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 18:16:20 +1000, Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Right. So you agree that BT is not universally better than wired.
>
> Wrong given that you are FAR less likely to fuck bluetooth headphones
> by breaking the cabling.

Far more likely to have a limited lifetime. I've got several wired
headphones which still work after over 20 years. No BT headphones ever
will.

>>
>> Feel free to let me know how to prioritise my BT outputs.
>
> Ask nospam, I don't need to bother but iphones can do that.

I have several times and he always avoids the question. Given you are too
suggests it actually isn't possible.

[nospam]

In article <tg9qhs$13efc$1...@dont-email.me>, Chris <ithi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> >>
> >> Feel free to let me know how to prioritise my BT outputs.
> >
> > Ask nospam, I don't need to bother but iphones can do that.
>
> I have several times and he always avoids the question.

false. i explained how just the other day as well as in the past.

> Given you are too
> suggests it actually isn't possible.

it's very possible, but only with apple bluetooth devices, a part of
bluetooth pair sharing.

[sms]

On 9/19/2022 6:24 AM, Chris wrote:
> zall <zal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 18:16:20 +1000, Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Right. So you agree that BT is not universally better than wired.
>>
>> Wrong given that you are FAR less likely to fuck bluetooth headphones
>> by breaking the cabling.
>
> Far more likely to have a limited lifetime. I've got several wired
> headphones which still work after over 20 years. No BT headphones ever
> will.

True, since many Bluetooth headphones have replaceable batteries, even
by the manufacturer.

>>> Feel free to let me know how to prioritise my BT outputs.
>>
>> Ask nospam, I don't need to bother but iphones can do that.
>
> I have several times and he always avoids the question. Given you are too
> suggests it actually isn't possible.

OMG, "ask nospam," the biggest fount of misinformation in this
newsgroup, is an amazing response!

The reality is that the Bluetooth standard does not have any direct way
of prioritizing connections. Maybe some future revision of the standard
will add that capability. iPhones _cannot_ add that capability. Nor can
Android phones. There's only a little that the phone manufacturer,
operating system manufacturer, or app developer can do to address this
issue. Even the Android app I referenced earlier, doesn't do much in
this regard.

Pairing Bluetooth devices in the priority order you want them connected
is how it's supposed to work now. The issues is that if a device with
higher priority is available during a periodic scan then the phone will
automatically drop the connection to the current device and reconnect
with the higher priority device. This makes sense. If you get in the car
with your Airpods, the Airpods connection should be dropped and a
connection the vehicle audio system should be made. Well unless you're a
passenger, not the driver, and want to use your Airpods in that vehicle,
in which case the driver's phone should automatically connect (and it
will, if it was the last phone that was connected). When I drive my
wife's car, with her in the car, her iPhone connects to the vehicle and
I have to manually disconnect it in the audio system, or have her turn
off her iPhone's Bluetooth.

What iOS and Android _could_ do, is to have a switch in the Bluetooth
Settings "Do not automatically disconnect currently connected Bluetooth
device when a higher-priority device is in range." That would solve the
original poster's problem. Or he could delete his iPhone's pairing from
the vehicle. But you'd have some people that turn that switch on and
then get upset when the phone doesn't automatically connect to their
car's audio system.

For my iPhone, the connection priority appears to be "what did it last
automatically connect to?" If I manually connect a device, when the
device that it last automatically connected to comes into range, then it
disconnects from the manually connected device and connects to the
previously automatically connected device. That makes some sense since
the largest usage, prior to wireless music quality headphones, was
connecting to a vehicle's audio system.

It would be nice to have a revision to the Bluetooth Standard that added
the ability to set prioritization rules, but that would be complicated
and non-techies would be confused. I suspect that when Bluetooth was
first created they never imagined the proliferation of Bluetooth
devices. Bluetooth was designed mainly for hands-free mobile headsets
and for hands-free calling through a vehicle's audio system. The low
bit-rate didn't matter for voice audio. The latest Bluetooth feature
"Auracast" will be great when it gets deployed, allowing broadcasting
audio to multiple Bluetooth devices.