iPhone upgrade timing/strategy

[JF Mezei]

I currently have a 6s bought when it was the top of the line model.


Right now, the 6s is still for sale, and has by default more storage
than mine.


Lets assume for a second that the keynote is Sept 15.
Lets assume that none of the new models tickle my fancy and I decide to
just upgrade my 6s to a 6s.

Normally, how would a model that is being discontinued behave in terms
of availabbility?

-run low on stocks well before keynote?

-pulled from shelves the minute Tim Cook starts speaking?

-stops being stocked at stores but remains orderable on apple web site
until new models start shipping?

-remains stocked by stores and web site until new models start shipping?



Also, with my current 6s, I can answer "yes" to all the questios when
evaluating its trade in value. ($125).

But the Apple.ca page has disclaimer:
Subject to quality verification by Brightstar, when a final value will
be determined.

Does this mean that when they open it up and find 3rd party battery,
screen, camera, they will void any trade in value and I will have to pay
back this $125 ? Or are they traditionally fairly liberal with returns
as long as the phone is in good working condition (which it is).

[nospam]

In article <jSHhD.11774$Vl2....@fx46.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> I currently have a 6s bought when it was the top of the line model.
>
>
> Right now, the 6s is still for sale, and has by default more storage
> than mine.
>
>
> Lets assume for a second that the keynote is Sept 15.

let's not, since sept 15 is a saturday.

currently the best guess based on previous years is sept 12, with
preorders beginning on the 14th and product availability as soon as the
21st (possibly later for certain models or configurations).

since it will once again take place on apple's campus rather than
having to book a venue as in the past, apple can reschedule it at any
time for any reason, up until they actually announce it and send out
invites.

> Lets assume that none of the new models tickle my fancy and I decide to
> just upgrade my 6s to a 6s.

i assume that's a typo, unless the upgrade is solely for more storage,
which is not worth it.

> Normally, how would a model that is being discontinued behave in terms
> of availabbility?

discontinued models will be sold on clearance and/or refurb.

> Also, with my current 6s, I can answer "yes" to all the questios when
> evaluating its trade in value. ($125).
>
> But the Apple.ca page has disclaimer:
> Subject to quality verification by Brightstar, when a final value will
> be determined.
>
> Does this mean that when they open it up and find 3rd party battery,
> screen, camera, they will void any trade in value and I will have to pay
> back this $125 ? Or are they traditionally fairly liberal with returns
> as long as the phone is in good working condition (which it is).

that means you almost certainly will *not* get $125.

the maximum is for mint condition.
3rd party parts is *not* mint condition.

would *you* want a used phone with random parts inside?

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-29 22:08, nospam wrote:

> let's not, since sept 15 is a saturday.

I used a random date.

> i assume that's a typo, unless the upgrade is solely for more storage,
> which is not worth it.

More storage is all I really need. And not too kean on losing wired
analogue headphones etc. (again, it all depends on what new models have
and lack).

In terms of choosing between 6s 7 or 8, the 7 or 8 briong me no
additional functionality I would use so paying more compared to a 6s is
pointless (assuming I don't choose a new model).

> discontinued models will be sold on clearance and/or refurb.

So this starts on the day of keynote or first day of shipment of new
models? aka: when is my last opportunity to walk into an Apple store to
get an old model ?

(clearance and refurb are not mechanisms upon which one can *rely* on in
Canada).

> would *you* want a used phone with random parts inside?

Do these phones really get resold? I was under impression that they
would go to Apple automated disassembly plant. I can understand units
returned under warrantee going to "refurb". But an end of line 6s bought
years ago would not likely get resold, would it ?

[Miroslav Svoboda]

In <news:jSHhD.11774$Vl2....@fx46.iad> & JF Mezei
<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca>:

> Normally, how would a model that is being discontinued behave in terms
> of availabbility?

Doesn't it just last on the store & web shelves until stocks run out?

[nospam]

In article <3yIhD.22616$4S3....@fx47.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> > discontinued models will be sold on clearance and/or refurb.
>
> So this starts on the day of keynote or first day of shipment of new
> models? aka: when is my last opportunity to walk into an Apple store to
> get an old model ?

apple stores will replace the current lineup with the new lineup as
soon as it's available, and if that includes last year's model at a
discount, as it has in the past, then you save a few bucks by waiting.

other stores will sell off what they have and when they sell out, they
won't be getting any more.

>
> Do these phones really get resold? I was under impression that they
> would go to Apple automated disassembly plant.

some are recycled, some are parted out for repairs and some are resold
to emerging markets.

> I can understand units
> returned under warrantee going to "refurb". But an end of line 6s bought
> years ago would not likely get resold, would it ?

a 6s is still a very usable phone.

[Your Name]

On 2018-08-30 01:36:14 +0000, JF Mezei said:

> I currently have a 6s bought when it was the top of the line model.
>
>
> Right now, the 6s is still for sale, and has by default more storage
> than mine.
>
>
> Lets assume for a second that the keynote is Sept 15.
> Lets assume that none of the new models tickle my fancy and I decide to
> just upgrade my 6s to a 6s.
>
> Normally, how would a model that is being discontinued behave in terms
> of availabbility?
>
> -run low on stocks well before keynote?
>
> -pulled from shelves the minute Tim Cook starts speaking?
>
> -stops being stocked at stores but remains orderable on apple web site
> until new models start shipping?
>
> -remains stocked by stores and web site until new models start shipping?

Official resellers will have been told before the announcement, so
stocks would already be running out by the time Apple officially
announces it.

Even if stock runs out at resellers and Apple's normal online store,
you'll probably find a few still available on the Refurb Store for a
bit longer. Some "deals" websites also buy excess stock / refurbished
stock to resell themselves - one example in New Zealand is 1-day.co.nz
<https://www.1-day.co.nz/onsale/smartphone270818/>.

You're real problem is that if your new iPhone 6S has a problem within
the warranty period, you may not be able to get a replacement (at least
not a brand new one, maybe not at all).

> Also, with my current 6s, I can answer "yes" to all the questios when
> evaluating its trade in value. ($125).
>
> But the Apple.ca page has disclaimer:
> Subject to quality verification by Brightstar, when a final value will
> be determined.
>
> Does this mean that when they open it up and find 3rd party battery,
> screen, camera, they will void any trade in value and I will have to pay
> back this $125 ? Or are they traditionally fairly liberal with returns
> as long as the phone is in good working condition (which it is).

No idea, but there are other companies that buy second-hand iPhones ...
or simply sell it yourself via eBay, etc. and you'll probably get a bit
more for it (the buy back companies obviously buy cheaper so they can
still resell it at a profit).

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-29 22:08, nospam wrote:

> currently the best guess based on previous years is sept 12, with
> preorders beginning on the 14th and product availability as soon as the
> 21st (possibly later for certain models or configurations).

Your best guess appears to be right. Apple sent out the invites today.

https://mobilesyrup.com/2018/08/30/apple-fall-2018-hardware-event-september-12-canada/

##
While Apple doesn’t explicitly mention new hardware in the invite, the
company is expected to announce three new iPhones at the event,
including a new low-cost LCD model with an edge-to-edge display; two new
iPad Pros, both of which are expected to feature thinner display bezels;
and new MacBook Air and Mac mini computers.
##


I know that with Intel releasing new chips, we can expect new Mac
Models. But didn't expect announcements at same time as iPhone.
(assuming rumour is correct).

[nospam]

In article <4XUhD.7$X8...@fx22.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:


> I know that with Intel releasing new chips, we can expect new Mac
> Models. But didn't expect announcements at same time as iPhone.
> (assuming rumour is correct).

apple has had two events in the past.

whether they split it into two events this year or combine everything
into one is unknown at this time.

[sms]

On 8/29/2018 6:36 PM, JF Mezei wrote:

<snip>

ade my 6s to a 6s.
>
> Normally, how would a model that is being discontinued behave in terms
> of availabbility?

The only reasons to still buy the 6s are the headphone jack and the
lower price.

The problem with the 6s is that it still has the issue with the power
section. This has been mitigated by the discounted battery replacement.
But the iPhone 8 has a redesigned power section which actually addresses
the root cause.

If you want a 4.7" screen phone, that you want to keep for several
years, the iPhone 8 would be a better choice. It should be reduced
slightly in price after the launch of the new models.

The 6s probably will be discontinued at some point in the near future.
The trend seems to be to heavily market the older models in poorer
countries but still make them available in wealthier countries.
Obviously they don't want to offer new models at lower prices in other
countries, especially since the iPhones tend to have radios that will
work in most countries (other than on Verizon and Sprint)

BTW, the launch event is on September 12th at 10 a.m., not September
15th. This is the first time that I've received an invitation to an
Apple launch event. I've been to the new Apple Campus several times, but
I have not yet been inside Steve Jobs theater for anything.

[nospam]

In article <pm9duc$kuq$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> The problem with the 6s is that it still has the issue with the power
> section.

no it doesn't.

> This has been mitigated by the discounted battery replacement.

that's to replace aging batteries, not 'the power section'.

> But the iPhone 8 has a redesigned power section which actually addresses
> the root cause.

the root cause is the battery.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-30 15:01, nospam wrote:

>> But the iPhone 8 has a redesigned power section which actually addresses
>> the root cause.
>
> the root cause is the battery.

Actually, the root cause is a phone's power draw that can exceed
battery's capability after a year or so. (in my case, when it gets cold).

I guess that would be an advantage of getting a 2018 model iPhone,
depending on whether Apple makes an affordable one. One would assume its
power management would be better matched to a battery's capability after
a year or so.


What are the rumours on TouchID? Will the lower end iPhone retain
TouchID or is Apple really rolling out facial recog on all new models?


Since there is talk of the OLED XS and XS+ models, AND of an LCD model,
I would assume that this LCD model would replace the 8 and the 7. I
don't expect those 2 phones to survive and I might think there is
greater odd of the 6s and SE surviving as the lowest end models (perhaps
getting upgrades in CPU as the SE did in past).

[nospam]

In article <FfYhD.1372$SN2...@fx38.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

>
> Actually, the root cause is a phone's power draw that can exceed
> battery's capability after a year or so. (in my case, when it gets cold).

the root cause is that an aging battery can't source what a new battery
could.

newer phones manage the limits better, but the laws of physics still
apply.

> What are the rumours on TouchID? Will the lower end iPhone retain
> TouchID or is Apple really rolling out facial recog on all new models?

touch id eventually going away.

in the past, the current model slots down to become the entry model, so
the 8 may still be offered, and it's unclear what will happen with the
se, but the days of touch id are numbered.

face id is much better in every respect, particularly with gloves or
wet fingers, which you've complained about on several occasions. it's
faster, far more secure and a much better overall user experience.

the only issue is if you have an evil twin *and* who has physical
access to the phone, or doctors wearing a surgical mask. neither
applies to you.

[JF Mezei]

So we know the high-end unaffordbale new phones will be iPhone XS.

Any speculation on the naming of the affordable lower end iPhone?

8s ? 9 ? or something totally different ?

Note the SE doesn't have numbering.

If SE stands for "Small Edition", how about iPhone ME (medium Edition) ?

[Your Name]

It's unlikely to be anything more than an iPhone event, or perhaps more
correctly an iOS event - there /might/ be iPad and Apple Watch
announcements, but almost certainly nothing to do with Mac computers.
Apple tries to keep them as separate announcements.

[Your Name]

On 2018-08-30 20:53:00 +0000, JF Mezei said:

> So we know the high-end unaffordbale new phones will be iPhone XS.

We don't "know" that at all, just lots of rumours.

> Any speculation on the naming of the affordable lower end iPhone?
>
> 8s ? 9 ? or something totally different ?
>
> Note the SE doesn't have numbering.
>
> If SE stands for "Small Edition", how about iPhone ME (medium Edition) ?

Wait and see. It's less than two weeks. Realistically, what Apple names
them is probably the least important aspect, although hopefully they
keep the numerbering ... it's a pain in the backside that the Mac
computers are always just called "iMac" or "MacBook" with no reference
at all in the name as to which actual model they are. Same with Intel
and their ridiculous continual re-using of the names like "i5" and "i7".

Then there's the even sillier and meaningless codenmaes used by Intel's
chips (is "Coffee Lake" better then "Monsoon Bum"?) and Apple's macOS
(is "Mavericks" better than "Stevenson's Tor"?)

[nospam]

In article <MOYhD.437$LK2...@fx36.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> So we know the high-end unaffordbale new phones will be iPhone XS.
> Any speculation on the naming of the affordable lower end iPhone?

xl :)

> 8s ? 9 ? or something totally different ?
>
> Note the SE doesn't have numbering.
>
> If SE stands for "Small Edition", how about iPhone ME (medium Edition) ?

special edition, and microsoft used that already for windows me, which
was a failure, so no.

[nospam]

In article <pm9lqs$14nu$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name

<Your...@YourISP.com> wrote:

>
> It's unlikely to be anything more than an iPhone event, or perhaps more
> correctly an iOS event - there /might/ be iPad and Apple Watch
> announcements, but almost certainly nothing to do with Mac computers.
> Apple tries to keep them as separate announcements.

it's pretty much a given that the new apple watch will be announced at
the event alongside the iphones, especially given today's leaks, and
very likely ipad pros, possibly an update to apple tv and all of the tv
shows apple has been working on.

the macs might be in a separate event so not to overload everyone with
announcements, but on the other hand, a second event is a hassle for
both apple and attendees.

[nospam]

In article <pm9m97$15gg$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name

<Your...@YourISP.com> wrote:

>
> > So we know the high-end unaffordbale new phones will be iPhone XS.
>
> We don't "know" that at all, just lots of rumours.

we *do* know that, as of earlier today.

[Rod Speed]

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote
> nospam wrote

>> i assume that's a typo, unless the upgrade is
>> solely for more storage, which is not worth it.

I might well have done that with the 5 which was
only 16GB because I took a punt given that the
previous Nokia N95 8GB was plenty big enough.
But found I used it differently with auto downloaded
podcasts which I listen to when walking for exercise
and found that 16GB was a damned nuisance, too small.

I went the other way with the 6S, got the 128GB and
havent needed to cleanup yet, but I don’t take huge
numbers of photos and videos. But I do run a facebook
garage sale group and use screen shots of the ads in
the local newspaper online in my group. Not huge
numbers tho, normally not even 10 a week. And I
do take photos of the small stuff like plug packs
that come with what I buy so I know which belongs
with what devices etc.

> More storage is all I really need. And not too
> kean on losing wired analogue headphones etc.

Never use it myself, much prefer bluetooth.

> (again, it all depends on what new models have and lack).

Yeah, gunna be interesting. Hate the X because of its facial
recognition only. Much prefer Touch ID because when you
register your thumbs, its so damned easy to whip it out of
your pocket with your thumb on the button and ApplePay.

Wouldn’t mind both, remains to be seen if they have a clue on that.

Same with inductive charging, that would be handy given that
mine mostly just sits in 3 places, next to the main armchair, next
to the bed head and in the bin under the radio in the car.

Apparently it does reduce the battery life but what the hell, I'm
never gunna spend my vast accumulated wealth before I cark it.

> In terms of choosing between 6s 7 or 8, the 7 or 8
> briong me no additional functionality I would use

Yeah, me too, tho I spose I might have to change
the battery sometime. I only charge it a couple
of times a week tho, so maybe not.

> so paying more compared to a 6s is pointless
> (assuming I don't choose a new model).

Yeah, I love mine. Same with the 5, only upgraded to get ApplePay.

I might to get inductive charging tho.

>> discontinued models will be sold on clearance and/or refurb.

> So this starts on the day of keynote or first day of shipment
> of new models? aka: when is my last opportunity to walk
> into an Apple store to get an old model ?

We see the discontinued stuff sold by the Post Office and supermarkets.

> (clearance and refurb are not mechanisms
> upon which one can *rely* on in Canada).

But surely you can buy one from yankeeland ?

>> would *you* want a used phone with random parts inside?

> Do these phones really get resold?

Yes. Aldi here in Australia have sold at least two
lines of refurbished iphones, most recently a 6s,
but only the 16GB. Forget what the previous one
was, but also very low memory from memory.

> I was under impression that they would go
> to Apple automated disassembly plant.

Why would they bother to do that ?

> I can understand units returned
> under warrantee going to "refurb".

Unlikely the ones Aldi flogs have done anything else.

> But an end of line 6s bought years ago
> would not likely get resold, would it ?

Dunno. Not at all clear why those refurbed 6S were only 16GBs.

[Rod Speed]

"nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:290820182306451994%nos...@nospam.invalid...

Yeah, only real lack is inductive charging. Would
make sense to ditch the SE and keep flogging the 6S

[nospam]

In article <fur9b6...@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed

<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > a 6s is still a very usable phone.
>
> Yeah, only real lack is inductive charging. Would
> make sense to ditch the SE and keep flogging the 6S

there are cases that add that as well as coils that fit inside an
existing case.

[Rod Speed]

"nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message

news:300820181627060752%nos...@nospam.invalid...

> In article <FfYhD.1372$SN2...@fx38.iad>, JF Mezei
> <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> Actually, the root cause is a phone's power draw that can exceed
>> battery's capability after a year or so. (in my case, when it gets cold).
>
> the root cause is that an aging battery can't source what a new battery
> could.
>
> newer phones manage the limits better, but the laws of physics still
> apply.
>
>
>
>> What are the rumours on TouchID? Will the lower end iPhone retain
>> TouchID or is Apple really rolling out facial recog on all new models?
>
> touch id eventually going away.
>
> in the past, the current model slots down to become the entry model, so
> the 8 may still be offered, and it's unclear what will happen with the
> se, but the days of touch id are numbered.
>
> face id is much better in every respect,

No it isnt. With touch id you can register your thumb. take
it out of your front jeans or shorts pocket with your thumb
on the button and do an ApplePay transaction in one fluid
motion. Can't do that with facial recognition.

Same with unlocking the phone with it in the bin in the
dash under the radio, just register your thumb and unlock
without even looking at the phone. Cant do that with
facial recognition either.

> particularly with gloves or wet fingers, which you've
> complained about on several occasions. it's faster, far
> more secure and a much better overall user experience.

Wrong with the two situations I listed.

> the only issue is if you have an evil twin *and* who has physical
> access to the phone, or doctors wearing a surgical mask.

Wrong again.

> neither applies to you.

But doing ApplePay transactions does.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-30 18:27, Rod Speed wrote:

> Yeah, only real lack is inductive charging. Would
> make sense to ditch the SE and keep flogging the 6S

Nop. The SE is a form factor Apple needs to keep. In many areas of the
world, many have 2 phones, a small and a big one.

There is good reason Apple updated the 5s into the SE and then updated
the SE. There is demand for a phone of that size.

The 6s , 7 and 8 are basically interchangeable so Apple can eliminate 2
without losing market share, as long as the price is right.

[sms]

On 8/30/2018 1:15 PM, JF Mezei wrote:

<snip>

> Actually, the root cause is a phone's power draw that can exceed
> battery's capability after a year or so. (in my case, when it gets cold).

Actually, a year-old phone battery is still perfectly capable of
delivering sufficient power, it's the DC-DC converter in the PMIC that
is the issue. That part of the circuit has been re-designed beginning
with the iPhone 8 so it's no longer an issue. "Compared to the iPhone 7,
there is one more PMIC component from Dialog in the iPhone 8 Plus." You
can be sure that in new designs they will ensure that full performance
is possible even as the battery voltage falls. You don't add more
components to a product unless absolutely necessary.

The most accurate and succinct explanation was over at
<https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/12/22/apple-confirms-that-it-throttles-iphones-with-degraded-batteries/>:
"the battery isn’t able to maintain a high enough voltage for the PMIC
to reliably be able to use as a source." But you can design a PMIC that
IS able to operate reliably even when a battery is slightly degraded.
It's not rocket science, this is the norm, not the exception.

From the rumors so far, it looks like there will be no new small screen
phones which is too bad. But the reality is that the cost of producing a
large screen phone is not much more than producing a small screen phone
but consumers expect the small screen phones to be significantly cheaper

[nospam]

In article <fura6n...@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed

<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > face id is much better in every respect,
>
> No it isnt.

yes it is.

> With touch id you can register your thumb. take
> it out of your front jeans or shorts pocket with your thumb
> on the button and do an ApplePay transaction in one fluid
> motion. Can't do that with facial recognition.

no need to do that. double-squeeze the side button and it verifies your
face, then hold it at the terminal to pay. it's actually faster and
easier, especially if the payment terminal is awkwardly placed, such as
behind the counter.

or just use an apple watch, which once unlocked, does not need to
re-verify every single time as long as it maintains skin contact.
double-squeeze and hold at the terminal. even faster.

> Same with unlocking the phone with it in the bin in the
> dash under the radio, just register your thumb and unlock
> without even looking at the phone. Cant do that with
> facial recognition either.

there are always edge cases where each will have limitations. nothing
is perfect in every situation.

face id won't work with a ski mask or surgical mask. touch id won't
work with gloves or wet fingers. most people don't wear masks all day,
but they *do* wear gloves or have wet or greasy fingers.

[nospam]

In article <Es_hD.722$OM2...@fx37.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:


> Nop. The SE is a form factor Apple needs to keep. In many areas of the
> world, many have 2 phones, a small and a big one.

currently, apple has 4 sizes: se, 6s/7/8, 6s+/7+/8+ and x.

> There is good reason Apple updated the 5s into the SE and then updated
> the SE. There is demand for a phone of that size.

more than they anticipated, but that may have changed in the past two
years.

> The 6s , 7 and 8 are basically interchangeable so Apple can eliminate 2
> without losing market share, as long as the price is right.

or keep 2 and price it accordingly.

or replace all of them with the 3 new ones.

or a combination thereof.

[nospam]

In article <pm9s37$ggr$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> > Actually, the root cause is a phone's power draw that can exceed
> > battery's capability after a year or so. (in my case, when it gets cold).
>
> Actually, a year-old phone battery is still perfectly capable of
> delivering sufficient power, it's the DC-DC converter in the PMIC that
> is the issue.

it isn't, and the problem is not with 1 year old batteries.

> That part of the circuit has been re-designed beginning
> with the iPhone 8 so it's no longer an issue.

it's still an issue, just significantly less so. the laws of physics
cannot be avoided.

> "Compared to the iPhone 7,
> there is one more PMIC component from Dialog in the iPhone 8 Plus." You
> can be sure that in new designs they will ensure that full performance
> is possible even as the battery voltage falls. You don't add more
> components to a product unless absolutely necessary.

it doesn't work that way.

> The most accurate and succinct explanation was over at

mostly speculation.

> <https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/12/22/apple-confirms-that-it-throttles-iphones-w
> ith-degraded-batteries/>:
> "the battery isnšt able to maintain a high enough voltage for the PMIC

> to reliably be able to use as a source."

in other words, the battery.

what happens is that an aging battery can't source sufficient *current*
in peak demands, which causes its voltage to drop.

> But you can design a PMIC that
> IS able to operate reliably even when a battery is slightly degraded.
> It's not rocket science, this is the norm, not the exception.

it's not the norm when batteries are pushed to their limits, which is
not what normally happens in most devices.

[Rod Speed]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>>> a 6s is still a very usable phone.

>> Yeah, only real lack is inductive charging. Would
>> make sense to ditch the SE and keep flogging the 6S

> there are cases that add that as well
> as coils that fit inside an existing case.

Sure, but that's rather clumsy compared with it built in to the phone.

I don't have mine in a proper case, just a flexible silicone backshell.
I very rarely drop my phone so just need minimal protection. The
bright yellow backshell make its easy to find too. Main downside
is that we have draconian penaltys for being caught using the
phone while driving, $400 and 4 demerit points. Loose 13 and
you lose your license. I normally use a bluetooth neckband
headset when driving when I expect an incoming phone call
but don't bother except when on the garage/yard sale run
and don't bother with one of the handsfree things on the
sun visor because I normally want to do the handsfree
when walking around a garage/yard sale or when moving
between the car and the garage/yard.

[Rod Speed]

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote

> Rod Speed wrote

>> Yeah, only real lack is inductive charging. Would
>> make sense to ditch the SE and keep flogging the 6S

> Nop. The SE is a form factor Apple needs to keep. In many areas
> of the world, many have 2 phones, a small and a big one.

Not convince about that last. Never seen anyone do that.

And they do have both anyway, the 6S and 6S+

> There is good reason Apple updated the 5s into the SE and
> then updated the SE. There is demand for a phone of that size.

Its less clear how much demand there is for that size
and whether most to buy the SE do it for the price.

> The 6s , 7 and 8 are basically interchangeable so Apple can eliminate
> 2 without losing market share, as long as the price is right.

Not convinced its about market share for Apple.

[Rod Speed]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>>> face id is much better in every respect,

>> No it isnt.

> yes it is.

No it isnt.

>> With touch id you can register your thumb. take it out
>> of your front jeans or shorts pocket with your thumb
>> on the button and do an ApplePay transaction in one
>> fluid motion. Can't do that with facial recognition.

> no need to do that. double-squeeze the side button and
> it verifies your face, then hold it at the terminal to pay.

That's nothing like as fast and one fluid motion as taking
it out of your pocket with the thumb on the home button
and waving at the terminal in one fluid motion.

> it's actually faster and easier,

Bullshit.

> especially if the payment terminal is awkwardly
> placed, such as behind the counter.

None of ours ever are. The put the portable terminal
on the counter in front of you when you say you want
to pay with a card or they remember that you always do.

> or just use an apple watch,

No thanks, too expensive to be that vulnerable to damage
and its even more awkward contorting to get the thing
facing the terminal and farting around with the button first.

> which once unlocked, does not need to re-verify
> every single time as long as it maintains skin contact.
> double-squeeze and hold at the terminal. even faster.

No faster contorting to have the watch against the terminal
after farting around double squeezing the damned thing.

>> Same with unlocking the phone with it in the bin
>> in the dash under the radio, just register your
>> thumb and unlock without even looking at the
>> phone. Cant do that with facial recognition either.

> there are always edge cases where each will have
> limitations. nothing is perfect in every situation.

Pity about your original IN EVERY RESPECT.

> face id won't work with a ski mask or surgical mask. touch
> id won't work with gloves or wet fingers. most people
> don't wear masks all day, but they *do* wear gloves

I never do.

> or have wet or greasy fingers.

Never had a problem with either stopping touch id working.

Yes, it would certainly be useful to have both touch id and
facial recognition so you can use what makes sense at the
time, but for some reason apple hasn't chosen to do that yet.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-30 18:45, sms wrote:

> "the battery isn’t able to maintain a high enough voltage for the PMIC
> to reliably be able to use as a source."

When battery is weakened/cold, if you draw too much power, the voltage
drops below that treshold. If battery is new, it can supply that current
without voltage dropping below that limit.

Changing DC-DC to give it better voltage range is an interesting
solution. But at the end of the day, the more the battery voltage drops,
the more current will be drawn by the DC-DC converter, and the more
power it draws from battery, the lower the battery volatege will go.

At the end of the day, drawing more power than can be supplied by aging
/cold battery is not a sustainable solution. It may work for short
bursts of power draw (and likely eliminate a lot/most of the shutdowns).

[Rod Speed]

"JF Mezei" <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
news:Zr%hD.3357$sH2....@fx25.iad...

> On 2018-08-30 18:45, sms wrote:
>
>> "the battery isn’t able to maintain a high enough voltage for the PMIC
>> to reliably be able to use as a source."
>
> When battery is weakened/cold, if you draw too much power, the voltage
> drops below that treshold. If battery is new, it can supply that current
> without voltage dropping below that limit.
>
> Changing DC-DC to give it better voltage range is an interesting
> solution. But at the end of the day, the more the battery voltage drops,
> the more current will be drawn by the DC-DC converter, and the more
> power it draws from battery, the lower the battery volatege will go.

But its perfectly possible to design the converter to be able to
deliver the output voltage so that it only fails to do that with the
oldest and coldest batterys. Your batterys were clearly neither.

> At the end of the day, drawing more power than can be supplied by
> aging /cold battery is not a sustainable solution. It may work for short
> bursts of power draw (and likely eliminate a lot/most of the shutdowns).

That’s wrong with cold batterys.

[sms]

On 8/30/2018 3:45 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2018-08-30 18:27, Rod Speed wrote:
>
>> Yeah, only real lack is inductive charging. Would
>> make sense to ditch the SE and keep flogging the 6S
>
> Nop. The SE is a form factor Apple needs to keep. In many areas of the
> world, many have 2 phones, a small and a big one.

LOL, yeah that's true, or they have a dual-SIM phone. But a lot of
people in the U.S. do the same thing with two phones to separate work
and home, or to have phones on two different carriers. For example, a
lot of T-Mobile subscribers carry along a prepaid Verizon MVNO phone so
they can have coverage when traveling into rural areas.

> There is good reason Apple updated the 5s into the SE and then updated
> the SE. There is demand for a phone of that size.

Not sure about the demand for smaller phones. Even on the Android side
there are very very few decent small-screen phones, and none as small as
4.7" The 5.2" screen Moto X4 is about the best "small" Android phone.
It's the Android model most comparable to an iPhone 8 non-plus, see
<https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HI-ejgQF5-OfJdS7yj-YL_we-v1PiMG0_JM8nGAlN38/edit?usp=sharing>.

[nospam]

In article <Zr%hD.3357$sH2....@fx25.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> When battery is weakened/cold, if you draw too much power, the voltage
> drops below that treshold. If battery is new, it can supply that current
> without voltage dropping below that limit.

yep, something which affects *every* battery. measuring the voltage
drop under a given load is a good way to determine battery health. open
circuit voltage (what is normally measured with a voltmeter) is not.

> Changing DC-DC to give it better voltage range is an interesting
> solution.

it's not a solution. if the battery can't source sufficient power,
there's nothing a dc-dc converter can do.

[sms]

A Li-Ion battery is capable of supplying an enormous amount of power,
even when the voltage is depressed slightly due to age or temperature.
The key thing is for the DC-DC switching regulator to be capable of
doing the conversion even when the voltage is depressed slightly. It's
not a difficult design problem to solve, and Apple has apparently solved
it. The key thing is not to try to have some headroom in your design so
a combination of maximum power draw, an old or partially discharged
battery, and a low temperature, don't cause a shutdown.

[sms]

The key thing is _to try_ to have some headroom in your design

[RJH]

On 30/08/2018 21:27, nospam wrote:
> In article <FfYhD.1372$SN2...@fx38.iad>, JF Mezei
> <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> Actually, the root cause is a phone's power draw that can exceed
>> battery's capability after a year or so. (in my case, when it gets cold).
>
> the root cause is that an aging battery can't source what a new battery
> could.
>
> newer phones manage the limits better, but the laws of physics still
> apply.
>
>
>
>> What are the rumours on TouchID? Will the lower end iPhone retain
>> TouchID or is Apple really rolling out facial recog on all new models?
>
> touch id eventually going away.
>
> in the past, the current model slots down to become the entry model, so
> the 8 may still be offered, and it's unclear what will happen with the
> se, but the days of touch id are numbered.
>
> face id is much better in every respect, particularly with gloves or
> wet fingers, which you've complained about on several occasions. it's
> faster, far more secure and a much better overall user experience.
>

Never used it, but I am sceptical. Except the edge cases you mention
(for me at least), touch ID is very fluid - not much more than picking
up the phone. And I'd have to add that the budget Android phone I have
is even better - touch sensor on the back of the phone.

But I'd guess you're right, it is on the way out - like most things
Apple, if you want to stay in, you're just going to have to get used to it.


--
Cheers, Rob

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 16:06:06 GMT, nospam wrote:

> the laws of physics cannot be avoided.

Hi nospam,
*Every time you say that meaningless platitude, you prove you're an idiot.*

Sure, it's a pseudoprofound truism, but it's like saying nobody lives
forever - so it doesn't matter that smoking cigarettes causes cancer.

Every time you post that idiotic truism, you prove your brain is that of a
child.

The laws of physics are NOT what Apple broke.
They broke the basic law of *testing* a design in the real world.

Had Apple simply *tested* their flawed design in the real world, they
wouldn't have had to subsequently secretly, drastically, and permanently
throttle people's CPUs to about half speed in about a year.

In your twisted imaginary world, the laws of physics are the rationale for
a very bad design by Apple - which - bar none - everyone logical has
already clearly stated.

The simply fact that ZERO Android manufacturers were forced to secretly,
drastically, and permanently throttle CPUs after about a year of use is
proof that the "laws of physics" is simply an *excuse* by you Apple
Apologists to rationalize the simple fact that Apple never tested their
flawed designs in the real world.

*Every time you post that idiotic statement, you prove you're an idiot.*

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 17:16:50 GMT, nospam wrote:

> yep, something which affects *every* battery. measuring the voltage
> drop under a given load is a good way to determine battery health. open
> circuit voltage (what is normally measured with a voltmeter) is not.

Except that the only company on the planet that had to secretly,
drastically, and permanently throttle CPU speeds to less than half in about
a year of use .... was Apple.

*Clearly Apple never fully tested their flawed design in the real world.*

They said so themselves that the huge design flaw was a surprise to them.

Only you Apple Apologists will deny the blatant obvious facts:
* It's a flawed design
* That wasn't caught in testing
* Simply because Apple clearly didn't test the design in the real world

The solution is simple - but expensive - which is to redesign the flawed
phones and give consumers those newly designed phones - but Apple chose -
instead - to *secretly*, *drastically*, and *permanently* throttle the CPUs
instead, to about half speed after about a year of use.

That alone tells us everything we need to know about Apple's motives.
What's strange is nospam's motives in denying what every adult knows.

Why are Apple Apologists like nospam incapable of comprehending facts?
I don't know why.

I just know that the Apple Apologists are not normal adults.
They're all children who live in an imaginary make-believe world.

Which nospam proves to be a fact in every post.

[sms]

On 8/30/2018 5:41 PM, RJH wrote:

> Never used it, but I am sceptical. Except the edge cases you mention
> (for me at least), touch ID is very fluid - not much more than picking
> up the phone. And I'd have to add that the budget Android phone I have
> is even better - touch sensor on the back of the phone.

Touch ID is predicted to be coming back. We'll see if that rumor is true
on September 12th, or perhaps in a future year. The key issue was
finding a way to put the sensor under the display so the screen can
remain edge to edge (well except for the notch). This wasn't ready for
the X, but it may be ready for the models to be introduced on September
12th, since other companies are also introducing it. See
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2018/08/19/apple-iphone-x-plus-se2-x2-upgrade-release-date-price-cost-face-id-touch-id/#59db0e0d647a>

The Vivo X21 already has this. The Samsung S10 will have it as well.

Apple originally stated that Face ID was more secure than fingerprints
(which it really wasn't, see
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2017/09/18/security-apple-face-id-iphone-x/#3ead42bf4c83>),
but the key reason it was eliminated was that they didn't want to put a
touch sensor on the front that took up screen space.

I have phones with front fingerprint sensors and ones with rear
fingerprint sensors. Personally I prefer the rear fingerprint sensor
which takes up no screen space anyway. I can pick up the phone with one
hand and put my index finger on the fingerprint sensor. The phone with
the front fingerprint sensor is more awkward.

[nospam]

In article <pma1du$dgo$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> > At the end of the day, drawing more power than can be supplied by aging
> > /cold battery is not a sustainable solution. It may work for short
> > bursts of power draw (and likely eliminate a lot/most of the shutdowns).
>
> A Li-Ion battery is capable of supplying an enormous amount of power,

true.

> even when the voltage is depressed slightly due to age or temperature.

not true.

voltage at full soc is the same, but as a battery ages, the *current*
it can source for a given load drops. a new battery can easily handle
high loads without any issue, while an aging battery will struggle and
its voltage will drop as a result. that's how real world batteries
work.

that's why the headlights and radio on a car might work well with a
weak car battery, but when you try to start it, it barely cranks, even
with the headlights off. with a new battery, there is no issue
whatsoever. the weak battery can't handle the starter load.

> The key thing is for the DC-DC switching regulator to be capable of
> doing the conversion even when the voltage is depressed slightly. It's
> not a difficult design problem to solve, and Apple has apparently solved
> it. The key thing is not to try to have some headroom in your design so
> a combination of maximum power draw, an old or partially discharged
> battery, and a low temperature, don't cause a shutdown.

it doesn't work that way.

you really need to stop making up shit.

[nospam]

In article <pma15s$cct$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> > Nop. The SE is a form factor Apple needs to keep. In many areas of the
> > world, many have 2 phones, a small and a big one.
>
> LOL, yeah that's true, or they have a dual-SIM phone. But a lot of
> people in the U.S. do the same thing with two phones to separate work
> and home, or to have phones on two different carriers. For example, a
> lot of T-Mobile subscribers carry along a prepaid Verizon MVNO phone so
> they can have coverage when traveling into rural areas.

not a lot. almost none, in fact.

t-mobile's coverage is *much* better than it used to be. in urban and
suburban areas, there is little to no difference among the carriers. it
also works quite well in rural areas, but there are always *some* areas
with dead spots no matter what carrier, even verizon and even in major
cities.

> > There is good reason Apple updated the 5s into the SE and then updated
> > the SE. There is demand for a phone of that size.
>
> Not sure about the demand for smaller phones. Even on the Android side
> there are very very few decent small-screen phones, and none as small as
> 4.7" The 5.2" screen Moto X4 is about the best "small" Android phone.
> It's the Android model most comparable to an iPhone 8 non-plus, see

it's nowhere near as comparable as you claim.

and for those who really want a small android phone, there's jelly:
<https://www.unihertz.com/jelly.html>

[nospam]

In article <pma1tt$fa7$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> The key thing is _to try_ to have some headroom in your design

no, the key thing is to understand batteries and power supplies, which
you clearly do not.

[nospam]

In article <pma2sn$k5b$1...@dont-email.me>, RJH <patch...@gmx.com> wrote:

> >> What are the rumours on TouchID? Will the lower end iPhone retain
> >> TouchID or is Apple really rolling out facial recog on all new models?
> >
> > touch id eventually going away.
> >
> > in the past, the current model slots down to become the entry model, so
> > the 8 may still be offered, and it's unclear what will happen with the
> > se, but the days of touch id are numbered.
> >
> > face id is much better in every respect, particularly with gloves or
> > wet fingers, which you've complained about on several occasions. it's
> > faster, far more secure and a much better overall user experience.
>
> Never used it, but I am sceptical.

use it and your opinion will change.

it's so effective that the phone feels like it has no lock code, yet it
does. pick it up and it's unlocked. however, if someone else picks it
up, it stays locked.

another useful feature is safari can autofill your login info once it
recognizes it's really you. this makes accessing many sites a breeze.
it can also be disabled if you want to manually enter it in.

> Except the edge cases you mention
> (for me at least), touch ID is very fluid - not much more than picking
> up the phone. And I'd have to add that the budget Android phone I have
> is even better - touch sensor on the back of the phone.

that's one of the worst possible places. you can't put a case on the
phone unless there's a hole in the back for the sensor, nor can you put
it in a car mount because the mount will block it. you also can't
unlock it if it's on a table or desk without picking it up to reach
around.

even worse, the samsung galaxy s8 has it *offset* from the camera and
people end up touching the camera lens instead:
<https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/1/15147998/samsung-galaxy-s8-fingerprin
t-reader-location>
Ask anyone to tell you where a smartphone's fingerprint reader should
be and, though the answers will vary, you'll never be told "off
center, right next to the camera lens on the back." But lo and
behold, that's exactly where Samsung plopped its fingerprint scanner
on the new (and otherwise delightful) Galaxy S8.

> But I'd guess you're right, it is on the way out - like most things
> Apple, if you want to stay in, you're just going to have to get used to it.

it's not just apple.

technology moves forward.

fingerprints worked well until the technology brought something better.

one day, face id will be replaced with something better yet.

[nospam]

In article <pma5am$v6d$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> Touch ID is predicted to be coming back.

no it isn't.

> We'll see if that rumor is true
> on September 12th, or perhaps in a future year. The key issue was
> finding a way to put the sensor under the display so the screen can
> remain edge to edge (well except for the notch). This wasn't ready for
> the X, but it may be ready for the models to be introduced on September
> 12th, since other companies are also introducing it. See

nope. apple did not intend for it to have both.

the claim that it "wasn't ready" and removed at the last minute is
ludicrous. design decisions are made 1-2 years in advance.

> The Vivo X21 already has this. The Samsung S10 will have it as well.

what currently exists does not work well.

> Apple originally stated that Face ID was more secure than fingerprints
> (which it really wasn't, see

it definitely is, significantly so.

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 16:06:06 GMT, nospam wrote:

> or replace all of them with the 3 new ones.

IMHO, since it's extremely clear to all *adults*, that the current line of
phones is flawed (e.g., they have to have their batteries replaced about
yearly just to NOT be drastically & permanently throttled to about half the
CPU speeds for God's sake!).

It's also rather clear that the lawsuits will drag on for years, where
*adding* more fuel to the fire might not necessarily be a good thing for
Apple.

In addition, continuing a line of obviously flawed phones does the Apple
admittedly loyal consumer no good.

Hence, I'd be shocked if Apple doesn't replace the entire flawed lineup.
Time will tell soon enough.

[nospam]

In article <pma5l8$j5o$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

> they have to have their batteries replaced about
> yearly

no they don't.

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 18:23:38 GMT, nospam wrote:

> t-mobile's coverage is *much* better than it used to be. in urban and
> suburban areas, there is little to no difference among the carriers. it
> also works quite well in rural areas, but there are always *some* areas
> with dead spots no matter what carrier, even verizon and even in major
> cities.

While nospam always guesses, such that his credibility is shit,
this is one guess by nospam that I can concur with.

In the Silicon Valley and surrounds, all three major carriers are, in my
opinion (and I've had them all - although sequentially), about the same.

In the mountains, all three suck.

Luckily, T-Mobile gives me three choices, all three of which I use:
1. Free femtocell (T-Mobile gave me one)
2. Free cellular repeater (T-Mobile gave me one)
3. Free WiFI router (I already have one of my own) & free wifi calls

Since Android has very good cellular signal graphical applications, I can
tell *exactly* which tower I'm using, even if it's a repeated tower from
Santa Cruz, or even if it's the femtocell in my house, since each has a
unique tower ID that Android easily *directly* reports sans need for a
database lookup.

Most of the time, my femtocell wins when set to cellular only, and almost
all the time the wifi calls win when set to prefer WiFi. But the moment I
go down my driveway (which is as long as some roads are), I quickly lose
the signal until I get down the mountain a few thousand feet.

But it's the same for the neighbors on AT&T and Verizon, as much as we can
tell, as there are zero cellular towers within miles.

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 18:30:05 GMT, nospam wrote:

>> they have to have their batteries replaced about yearly
>
> no they don't.

The Apple Apologist nospam constantly denies even what Apple admitted.

*What is wrong with the Apple Apologists that they deny even what Apple admitted?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/fyL1cQUVCp0[51-75]>

You're not normal nospam.
You have the mind of a child.

You live in a make-believe world of make-believe physics.

You make idiotic psuedo-profound statements like the laws of physics can't
be broken, while knowing that *only Apple* had to *secretly*,
*drastically*, and *permanently* throttle CPU speeds to less than half

after about a year of use.

Those are facts.
You deny facts all the time.

But the fact you deny facts doesn't make facts not facts.
It just proves you live in a fantasy world of childish make-believe
physics.

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 18:23:40 GMT, nospam wrote:

>> The key thing is _to try_ to have some headroom in your design
>
> no, the key thing is to understand batteries and power supplies, which
> you clearly do not.

The key thing is for Apple to test their products in the real world.

Then they won't be blind sided which they said happened with the current
lineup.

If Apple tested, found, and then fixed the flawed design *before* release,
then Apple wouldn't have resorted to *secretly*, *drastically*, and
*permanently* throttling the CPU speeds to less than half original speeds
in about a year of use for the current suite of iPhones.

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 18:23:39 GMT, nospam wrote:

> you really need to stop making up shit.

Hehhehheh....

That's the funniest thing you've said today.

[David Empson]

Your Name <Your...@YourISP.com> wrote:

> On 2018-08-30 01:36:14 +0000, JF Mezei said:
>
> > I currently have a 6s bought when it was the top of the line model.
> >
> > Right now, the 6s is still for sale, and has by default more storage
> > than mine.
> >
> > Lets assume for a second that the keynote is Sept 15.

September 12, as noted elsewhere in the thread.

> > Lets assume that none of the new models tickle my fancy and I decide to
> > just upgrade my 6s to a 6s.

[with more storage, presumably]

> > Normally, how would a model that is being discontinued behave in terms
> > of availabbility?
> >
> > -run low on stocks well before keynote?
> >
> > -pulled from shelves the minute Tim Cook starts speaking?
> >
> > -stops being stocked at stores but remains orderable on apple web site
> > until new models start shipping?
> >
> > -remains stocked by stores and web site until new models start shipping?
>
> Official resellers will have been told before the announcement, so
> stocks would already be running out by the time Apple officially
> announces it.
>
> Even if stock runs out at resellers and Apple's normal online store,
> you'll probably find a few still available on the Refurb Store for a
> bit longer. Some "deals" websites also buy excess stock / refurbished
> stock to resell themselves - one example in New Zealand is 1-day.co.nz
> <https://www.1-day.co.nz/onsale/smartphone270818/>.
>
> You're real problem is that if your new iPhone 6S has a problem within
> the warranty period, you may not be able to get a replacement (at least
> not a brand new one, maybe not at all).

Apple should be able to service all their products world wide, including
replacing them if necessary, until the point they are declared
"vintage", which is five years after the model is officially
discontinued (i.e. when Apple stops selling it as a new product -
refurbished or third party ongoing sales don't extend that further).

In this case: if the iPhone 6s is discontinued at the media event on 12
September (which is likely), then it will be possible to get any iPhone
6s serviced until about September 2023.

For products bought in California and Turkey, servicing is available in
the same region until the product is "obsolete", which is seven years
after the product was discontinued.

Apple continues to manufacture the product in lower volumes as required
to maintain service stock, even after it is discontinued and no longer
available for retail sale.

An example from personal experience: due to a battery fault, I got a
replacement iPhone 5 which had a serial number indicating it was
manufactured two months after Apple discontinued the iPhone 5. It was
supplied to me several months later so it had been sitting in service
stock for that time.

If they really can't supply a replacement of the same model (because
they have run out of service stock and are not able to have more
manufactured), but it is still within the service period, then they
usually replace it with a similar newer model. (I've heard of this but
happening haven't encountered it myself.)

> > Also, with my current 6s, I can answer "yes" to all the questios when
> > evaluating its trade in value. ($125).
> >
> > But the Apple.ca page has disclaimer:
> > Subject to quality verification by Brightstar, when a final value will
> > be determined.
> >
> > Does this mean that when they open it up and find 3rd party battery,
> > screen, camera, they will void any trade in value and I will have to pay
> > back this $125 ? Or are they traditionally fairly liberal with returns
> > as long as the phone is in good working condition (which it is).

I'd expect that with third party replacement components, the existing
iPhone would be rejected as a trade-in through Apple's programme.


Another issue to keep in mind is software support. An iPhone 6s (or SE)
bought now is probably only going to get three more years of iOS
updates: iOS 12, 13 and 14.

Apple has been extended the software support window for iPhones every
few years (iOS 6, iOS 9 and iOS 12 didn't drop support for any iPhone
models able to run the preceding version). They might do that again at
some point (perhaps iOS 15 if the pattern holds), but we're already up
to six years of software support from introduction for main iPhone
models from the 5s onwards (less for derived models like the 5c and SE).

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-30 21:18, Arlen Holder wrote:
>
> Had Apple simply *tested* their flawed design in the real world, they
> wouldn't have had to subsequently secretly, drastically, and permanently
> throttle people's CPUs to about half speed in about a year.

Apple has plenty of in house expertise on batteries as well as how much
power is needed by components such as CPU it designs itself and others
such as camera where it sets the specs.

I am pretty sure that internally, engineering warned marketing that
they were pushing the limits of thin case vs speed and that batteries a
year from nwo woudl start causing problems. But marketing decided it was
more important to aunch a thin iPhone with amazing CPU/graphics speed
and if problems started to arise to people in cold climates, they woudl
be ignoreed for one winter, after which most would upgrade on the 2nd
year cycle.

Turns out that the 6s also happened to be when people stopped
automatically upgrading every 2 years, so the problem started to happen
again on the secon winter and this time enough people got it that the
media got wind of it and Apple was forced to deal with it.


What is not known about the 8 and later models is whether Apple is
providing a band aid to stop complaints for 2 years, or whether the
problem is fixed in a way that allows 3-5 years of operation without
problems. (aka: marketing fix vs engineering fix).

[Rod Speed]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote

> RJH wrote

>> Never used it, but I am sceptical. Except the edge cases you mention (for
>> me at least), touch ID is very fluid - not much more than picking up the
>> phone. And I'd have to add that the budget Android phone I have is even
>> better - touch sensor on the back of the phone.

> Touch ID is predicted to be coming back. We'll see if that rumor is true
> on September 12th, or perhaps in a future year. The key issue was finding
> a way to put the sensor under the display so the screen can remain edge to
> edge (well except for the notch). This wasn't ready for the X, but it may
> be ready for the models to be introduced on September 12th, since other
> companies are also introducing it. See
> <https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2018/08/19/apple-iphone-x-plus-se2-x2-upgrade-release-date-price-cost-face-id-touch-id/#59db0e0d647a>

> The Vivo X21 already has this. The Samsung S10 will have it as well.
>
> Apple originally stated that Face ID was more secure than fingerprints
> (which it really wasn't, see
> <https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2017/09/18/security-apple-face-id-iphone-x/#3ead42bf4c83>),
> but the key reason it was eliminated was that they didn't want to put a
> touch sensor on the front that took up screen space.

Yeah, that does make sense, except that there
has to be a front camera and flash. Tho I spose
you can argue that when you have to have those,
you lose more with the fingerprint sensor as well.

> I have phones with front fingerprint sensors and ones with rear
> fingerprint sensors. Personally I prefer the rear fingerprint sensor which
> takes up no screen space anyway. I can pick up the phone with one hand and
> put my index finger on the fingerprint sensor.

Not as conveniently take it out of a front jeans or
shorts pocket with your thumb on the sensor tho.

And doesn’t work anything like as well with a case.
I just have a flexible silicon backshell with nothing
covering the front at all. The rim on the backshell
works well enough to protect the screen unless
you manage to drop it with an edge of something
hitting the screen. A risk worth taking IMO but then
its not a huge deal if I end up with a smashed
screen that way, I'd just buy another phone.

> The phone with the front fingerprint sensor is more awkward.

Not when you register your thumbs it isnt.

Yes a whole screen fingerprint sensor is better again,
but presumably much more expensive to do.

[Rod Speed]

"nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:300820182123398359%nos...@nospam.invalid...

> In article <pma1du$dgo$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> > At the end of the day, drawing more power than can be supplied by aging
>> > /cold battery is not a sustainable solution. It may work for short
>> > bursts of power draw (and likely eliminate a lot/most of the
>> > shutdowns).
>>
>> A Li-Ion battery is capable of supplying an enormous amount of power,
>
> true.
>
>> even when the voltage is depressed slightly due to age or temperature.
>
> not true.
>
> voltage at full soc is the same, but as a battery ages, the *current*
> it can source for a given load drops. a new battery can easily handle
> high loads without any issue, while an aging battery will struggle and
> its voltage will drop as a result. that's how real world batteries
> work.
>
> that's why the headlights and radio on a car might work well with a
> weak car battery, but when you try to start it, it barely cranks, even
> with the headlights off. with a new battery, there is no issue
> whatsoever. the weak battery can't handle the starter load.

Phones don't have anything like the same variation in loads
and li-on batterys don't sulphate up like car batterys do either.
There is no equivalent high current effect with li-on batterys.

[Rod Speed]

"nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message

news:300820182123418462%nos...@nospam.invalid...

Bet it isnt, because its really only the
face that doesn't get covered up much.

Tho in your case a BO detector might work.

[Rod Speed]

"nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message

news:300820182128587536%nos...@nospam.invalid...

> In article <pma5am$v6d$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Touch ID is predicted to be coming back.
>
> no it isn't.
>
>> We'll see if that rumor is true
>> on September 12th, or perhaps in a future year. The key issue was
>> finding a way to put the sensor under the display so the screen can
>> remain edge to edge (well except for the notch). This wasn't ready for
>> the X, but it may be ready for the models to be introduced on September
>> 12th, since other companies are also introducing it. See
>
> nope. apple did not intend for it to have both.
>
> the claim that it "wasn't ready" and removed at the last minute is
> ludicrous. design decisions are made 1-2 years in advance.

Yes, but they may have tried to get a full screen fingerprint sensor
working but couldn't get it reliable in time enough for the X

>> The Vivo X21 already has this. The Samsung S10 will have it as well.
>
> what currently exists does not work well.
>
>> Apple originally stated that Face ID was more secure than fingerprints
>> (which it really wasn't, see
>
> it definitely is, significantly so.

Not if the fingerprint sensor also check for a dead finger or
fake finger by checking for a pulse etc as well.

[Rod Speed]

Arlen Holder <arlen...@nospam.net> wrote

> nospam wrote

>> or replace all of them with the 3 new ones.

> IMHO, since it's extremely clear to all *adults*, that the current
> line of phones is flawed (e.g., they have to have their batteries
> replaced about yearly just to NOT be drastically & permanently
> throttled to about half the CPU speeds for God's sake!).

Like hell they do. My 6S is now more than 2 years
old and is on all the time, only ever powered off to
do a full reboot and it hasn’t been throttled at all.

> It's also rather clear that the lawsuits will drag
> on for years, where *adding* more fuel to the fire
> might not necessarily be a good thing for Apple.

Bet its all just piss and wind and Apple just yawns, like it always does.

> In addition, continuing a line of obviously flawed phones
> does the Apple admittedly loyal consumer no good.

Clearly didn’t to the X any harm, or the market share.

> Hence, I'd be shocked if Apple doesn't
> replace the entire flawed lineup.

Then you're in for a shock, again.

> Time will tell soon enough.

It will indeed, you wrong about that, again.

[nospam]

In article <kp2iD.3933$8r2....@fx34.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Apple has plenty of in house expertise on batteries as well as how much
> power is needed by components such as CPU it designs itself and others
> such as camera where it sets the specs.

yep.

> I am pretty sure that internally, engineering warned marketing that
> they were pushing the limits of thin case vs speed and that batteries a
> year from nwo woudl start causing problems. But marketing decided it was
> more important to aunch a thin iPhone with amazing CPU/graphics speed
> and if problems started to arise to people in cold climates, they woudl
> be ignoreed for one winter, after which most would upgrade on the 2nd
> year cycle.

nope.

> Turns out that the 6s also happened to be when people stopped
> automatically upgrading every 2 years, so the problem started to happen
> again on the secon winter and this time enough people got it that the
> media got wind of it and Apple was forced to deal with it.

users still upgrade every 2-3 years, although it's getting longer as
the platform matures.

> What is not known about the 8 and later models is whether Apple is
> providing a band aid to stop complaints for 2 years, or whether the
> problem is fixed in a way that allows 3-5 years of operation without
> problems. (aka: marketing fix vs engineering fix).

they fixed it a while ago.

[nospam]

In article <furr49...@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed

<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > the claim that it "wasn't ready" and removed at the last minute is
> > ludicrous. design decisions are made 1-2 years in advance.
>
> Yes, but they may have tried to get a full screen fingerprint sensor
> working but couldn't get it reliable in time enough for the X

they didn't, and publicly said as much.

> >> Apple originally stated that Face ID was more secure than fingerprints
> >> (which it really wasn't, see
> >
> > it definitely is, significantly so.
>
> Not if the fingerprint sensor also check for a dead finger or
> fake finger by checking for a pulse etc as well.

touchid requires a live finger and faceid requires a live face.

[nospam]

In article <furqp2...@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed

<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Phones don't have anything like the same variation in loads
> and li-on batterys don't sulphate up like car batterys do either.
> There is no equivalent high current effect with li-on batterys.

they get dendrites, and yes there is.

[Rod Speed]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote

>> Phones don't have anything like the same variation in loads
>> and li-on batterys don't sulphate up like car batterys do either.
>> There is no equivalent high current effect with li-on batterys.

> they get dendrites,

Those don't limit the current you can draw from the battery.

> and yes there is.

How odd that you can't list the effect that does that.

[Rod Speed]

"nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message

news:310820180001558124%nos...@nospam.invalid...

So your claim of much better security can't fly.

[Your Name]

"Serviced", yes.

Replaced, no. If there's no stock, then there's no stock. You can't
expect any compeny to keep producing complete old products just on the
off chance. Besides which the official Apple warranty period is 12
months, but local consumer laws may mean that is extended under certain
circumstances.

> For products bought in California and Turkey, servicing is available in
> the same region until the product is "obsolete", which is seven years
> after the product was discontinued.
>
> Apple continues to manufacture the product in lower volumes as required
> to maintain service stock, even after it is discontinued and no longer
> available for retail sale.

No it doesn't. As you say below, there have been reports before of
people sending back a device for replacement and recieving a new model
in return simply because there was no more stock of the older model.

> An example from personal experience: due to a battery fault, I got a
> replacement iPhone 5 which had a serial number indicating it was
> manufactured two months after Apple discontinued the iPhone 5. It was
> supplied to me several months later so it had been sitting in service
> stock for that time.

It can depend on where you get the devices serviced. *For* *example*,
an official reseller may well still have stock after Apple has run out.

There is also the case that some models are discontinued in most
countries, but are still being made and sold for others (such as
India), which can mean Apple can get stock of those models for
replacement purposes, but not for retail purposes.

But in general the discontinuation of manufacture comes before the
discontinuation of sale, which in turn comes before stock running out.

> If they really can't supply a replacement of the same model (because
> they have run out of service stock and are not able to have more
> manufactured), but it is still within the service period, then they
> usually replace it with a similar newer model. (I've heard of this but
> happening haven't encountered it myself.)

As I said, once stock runs out, it has run out. When it runs out varies
for numerous reasons, but Apple itself is generally very good at stock
control processes and not being left with a mountain of old stock.

[RJH]

On 31/08/2018 02:23, nospam wrote:
> In article <pma2sn$k5b$1...@dont-email.me>, RJH <patch...@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>>>> What are the rumours on TouchID? Will the lower end iPhone retain
>>>> TouchID or is Apple really rolling out facial recog on all new models?
>>>
>>> touch id eventually going away.
>>>
>>> in the past, the current model slots down to become the entry model, so
>>> the 8 may still be offered, and it's unclear what will happen with the
>>> se, but the days of touch id are numbered.
>>>
>>> face id is much better in every respect, particularly with gloves or
>>> wet fingers, which you've complained about on several occasions. it's
>>> faster, far more secure and a much better overall user experience.
>>
>> Never used it, but I am sceptical.
>
> use it and your opinion will change.
>

Yes, might well - I'm probably going to update my current iPhone 6
depending on what's announced on the 12th.

And if I don't like it I'll know who to blame :-)


--
Cheers, Rob

[RJH]

On 31/08/2018 02:23, nospam wrote:

> In article <pma2sn$k5b$1...@dont-email.me>, RJH <patch...@gmx.com> wrote:
>

snip

>
>> Except the edge cases you mention
>> (for me at least), touch ID is very fluid - not much more than picking
>> up the phone. And I'd have to add that the budget Android phone I have
>> is even better - touch sensor on the back of the phone.
>
> that's one of the worst possible places. you can't put a case on the
> phone unless there's a hole in the back for the sensor, nor can you put
> it in a car mount because the mount will block it. you also can't
> unlock it if it's on a table or desk without picking it up to reach
> around.
>

Well, I'd have to ask if you've ever tried it?

For my use, it works very well, and better than the front mount on the
'6. Simply buy a gel case with a hole, and in the car, sat nav is always
on; the phone is bluetooth.

I don't think I've ever tried to use the phone (except to check
notifications, which I can read on the lock screen) on a flat surface -
sounds most amusing.

Wouldn't surprise me at all to see a rear-mounted touch ID on a new iPhone.

--
Cheers, Rob

[sms]

On 8/30/2018 6:36 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:

<snip>

> In the mountains, all three suck.
>
> Luckily, T-Mobile gives me three choices, all three of which I use:
> 1. Free femtocell (T-Mobile gave me one)
> 2. Free cellular repeater (T-Mobile gave me one)
> 3. Free WiFI router (I already have one of my own) & free wifi calls

Verizon works great in the Santa Cruz mountains. And you don't need all
that extra equipment that you need with one of the second tier carriers.

AT&T works acceptably well, but not as good as Verizon, and has more
areas with no coverage than Verizon.

Sprint works poorly. Since Sprint does have a presence in the area, they
limit roaming.

T-Mobile works poorly. They have dropped much of the AT&T roaming that
they used to have in this area because it was too expensive.

[sms]

On 8/30/2018 8:31 PM, Rod Speed wrote:

<snip>

> Not if the fingerprint sensor also check for a dead finger or
> fake finger by checking for a pulse etc as well.

LOL. But does Face ID check for a live head?

Fingerprints are much more unique, even among family members. It's
extremely unlikely that either a family member, or some random person
would ever pick up someone elses phone and be able to unlock it with a
fingerprint.

The issue with Face ID is that it's easily fooled by people in the same
family that look alike, and the problem is not limited to identical twins.

There's no reason why a phone should not have both face recognition and
a fingerprint sensor. There are advantages to each one that go beyond
which is more secure.

It looks like Touch ID may be making a comeback, see
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2018/08/19/apple-iphone-x-plus-se2-x2-upgrade-release-date-price-cost-face-id-touch-id/#6442c124647a>.

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 20:15:27 GMT, JF Mezei wrote:

> Apple has plenty of in house expertise on batteries as well as how much
> power is needed by components such as CPU it designs itself and others
> such as camera where it sets the specs.

It's nice to find that there are actual *adults* on this newsgroup.

Yup. Nobody said that Apple didn't have experts.
Nobody also said that they don't make mistakes.

What's important is that they never caught their mistakes before release.
That's clearly because they didn't test their phones in the real world.

Remember, the problems surfaced relatively recently after launch.
And those problems surfaced in the real world.

And that originally, Apple was flummoxed.
Then, as I recall, they declared a "fix" (which was, as I recall, bogus).

Finally, they *secretly* found a workaround to the flawed design.
That worked fine until people found their CPUs were cut in half.

Then unsatisfied loyal owners took those slow phones to the genius bar.
The genius bar told them nothing was wrong.

Except that was a lie.

> I am pretty sure that internally, engineering warned marketing that
> they were pushing the limits of thin case vs speed and that batteries a
> year from nwo woudl start causing problems.

I actually agree with you - where I appreciate that you put that sentence
in words that show you're not proclaiming a fact like nospam does.

I agree that the engineers *must* have been worried about the design.
They couldn't possibly have been oblivious to the potential flaws.

Certainly they *should* have *tested* the phones better (duh).

However, there's this little problem that Apple themselves said they didn't
recognize the problem initially when the first phones started coming in.

That kind of indicates that Apple engineers did *not* think, at first,
about the real problem (or if they did - Apple didn't report that
publicly).

Since Apple subsequently *secretly* halved people's CPUs, we won't know
unless the lawyers eke it out of Apple, whether Apple knew up front about
the huge design flaws though.

Maybe - just maybe - they knew all along - and hence their subterfuge plan
was to imply that they "fixed" the problem publicly all the while planning
to implement the *secret* "real fix" by throttling people's CPUs?

> But marketing decided it was
> more important to aunch a thin iPhone with amazing CPU/graphics speed
> and if problems started to arise to people in cold climates, they woudl
> be ignoreed for one winter, after which most would upgrade on the 2nd
> year cycle.

I do agree with you that all Apple has to do is push the time out that
people use the phones until the problem doesn't matter anymore. It's sort
of like nobody is worrying about a Corvair being unsafe at any speed today.

It's likely, but I'm only supposing, that what you say is true, but if we
put it together, that's even worse for Apple since they screwed their loyal
customers royally. (Facts below don't end with question marks.)
1. Apple engineers warned marketing?
2. Marketing ignored the warnings?
3. Apple released (what is now known clearly to be a highly flawed design)
4. Apple Marketing came up with their insidious subterfuge (this is a fact)
5. Apple Marketing proclaimed the battery problems solved (?)
6. Meanwhile, in iOS 11 variants, Apple *secretly* chopped the CPU

Notice that the only fact above that I don't know the timing of is #4.

If you're right (that the engineers knew all along), then #4 happened
sooner rather than later. If Apple is right (that this flummoxed them
originally), then #4 may have happened later.

What's not in any doubt (by adults) is that #4 happened at some point.
I'm sure the lawsuits will be all about finding out when and by whom.

> Turns out that the 6s also happened to be when people stopped
> automatically upgrading every 2 years, so the problem started to happen
> again on the secon winter and this time enough people got it that the
> media got wind of it and Apple was forced to deal with it.

I agree again with you that Apple was forced to deal with it when the media
took hold.

However, they were forced a *second* time to deal with it when it was found
that they *secretly* throttled people's CPUs.

What I find shocking is how loyal the customer base is, even after being
screwed by Apple (who clearly doesn't give a shit about the customer).

What Apple *should* have done, IMHO, is simply eat their mistake.
a. Design a new phone
b. Provide that new phone to any customer who has the flawed phone

That would have shown they *care* about their loyal customer.
*The fact Apple _secretly screwed_ the loyal customer is very telling.*

> What is not known about the 8 and later models is whether Apple is
> providing a band aid to stop complaints for 2 years, or whether the
> problem is fixed in a way that allows 3-5 years of operation without
> problems. (aka: marketing fix vs engineering fix).

This is a good point.
Apple has proven that they can not be trusted.
Apple has proven they don't care about the customer.
Those are facts.

In addition, Tim Cook publicly lied (which we published earlier this year).

Nothing Apple says can be trusted.
Nothing Apple does can be trusted.

Apple has proven that with their own actions.

You may be correct that they put duct tape inside of the iPhone 8, and I
may be correct that I would expect Apple to drop *all* the flawed designs,
but we can only wait for the truth to eventually come out (most likely in
the lawsuits).

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 21:01:53 GMT, nospam wrote:

> they fixed it a while ago.

And what was that fix?

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 23:43:14 GMT, Your Name wrote:

> There is also the case that some models are discontinued in most
> countries, but are still being made and sold for others (such as
> India), which can mean Apple can get stock of those models for
> replacement purposes, but not for retail purposes.

Again, it's heartening to note that there actually are *adults* on this ng!

[Arlen Holder]

On 30 Aug 2018 19:14:05 GMT, David Empson wrote:

> Apple should be able to service all their products world wide, including
> replacing them if necessary, until the point they are declared
> "vintage", which is five years after the model is officially
> discontinued

What's refreshing is that there is an actual *adult* on Apple newsgroups.

[sms]

On 8/30/2018 8:25 PM, Rod Speed wrote:

> Phones don't have anything like the same variation in loads
> and li-on batterys don't sulphate up like car batterys do either.
> There is no equivalent high current effect with li-on batterys.

Not in absolute terms, but there are definitely huge differences in
power consumption with different apps, both in terms of the processor
load and the sensors and radios being used. Plus of course the display
brightness makes a big difference.

The GPS is a battery hog. On my iPad Pro, a 5V 2.1A car adapter cannot
keep up with the battery consumption when I'm running Google Maps or
Waze, you need a higher current 12V adapter. I will typically have
Bluetooth on as well, and if there's a passenger they may be using the
Wi-Fi hotspot from the iPad.

The throttling issue with the iPhone 6, 6s, and 7, should never have
occurred, but it's understandable why it happened. When designing the
power conversion circuity in a portable device you have to take into
account the fact that Li-Ion batteries degrade over time. A proper
design will simply have the operating time per-charge of the device
gradually decline over time, but that will be the only issue visible to
the user, there will not be unexpected shutdowns when the battery still
has plenty of remaining capacity.

What probably occurred with the iPhone 6, 6s, 7, is that no one ever
tested maximum load apps, at maximum screen brightness, with an older
battery. Standard operating procedure for testing is to run a power
virus program. But you normally don't try doing it with a degraded
battery, because you design your DC-DC converter to be able to provide
maximum current over a range of input voltages. It's not a huge range,
it's basically 4.2V to about 3.4V for a single cell design. Below 3.4V
you shut down. That's only a 0.8V range. The problem didn't begin
showing up until the phones were old enough for the battery to begin to
lose capacity.

[nospam]

In article <fus1if...@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed

<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> >> Phones don't have anything like the same variation in loads
> >> and li-on batterys don't sulphate up like car batterys do either.
> >> There is no equivalent high current effect with li-on batterys.
>
> > they get dendrites,
>
> Those don't limit the current you can draw from the battery.

yes they do

> > and yes there is.
>
> How odd that you can't list the effect that does that.

i did

[nospam]

In article <fus1kc...@mid.individual.net>, Rod Speed

<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> >> Apple originally stated that Face ID was more secure than fingerprints
> >> >> (which it really wasn't, see
> >> >
> >> > it definitely is, significantly so.
> >>
> >> Not if the fingerprint sensor also check for a dead finger or
> >> fake finger by checking for a pulse etc as well.
> >
> > touchid requires a live finger and faceid requires a live face.
>
> So your claim of much better security can't fly.

it does, and has nothing to do with dead people.

[nospam]

In article <pmb1p0$334$1...@dont-email.me>, RJH <patch...@gmx.com> wrote:

>
> Wouldn't surprise me at all to see a rear-mounted touch ID on a new iPhone.

not going to happen for all sorts of reasons.

[nospam]

In article <pmbbdd$sja$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> Verizon works great in the Santa Cruz mountains. And you don't need all
> that extra equipment that you need with one of the second tier carriers.

they're all first tier carriers and you really need to stop shilling
for verizon.

> AT&T works acceptably well, but not as good as Verizon, and has more
> areas with no coverage than Verizon.
>
> Sprint works poorly. Since Sprint does have a presence in the area, they
> limit roaming.
>
> T-Mobile works poorly. They have dropped much of the AT&T roaming that
> they used to have in this area because it was too expensive.

bullshit to all of that.

<https://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/lte-comparison-map>

according to that map, t-mobile is the only one covering bonny doon,
with at&t and sprint covering davenport. verizon doesn't cover either
particularly well or at all and also has some dead spots south of
felton.

the only reason t-mobile doesn't roam on at&t is because it's no longer
needed. their coverage is *much* better than it used to be, even
compared to a few years ago.

there's also a lot more to the world than the santa cruz mountains.

nationwide, t-mobile and verizon are basically *tied*:

<https://opensignal.com/blog/2018/03/15/the-4g-battle-continues-between-
t-mobile-and-verizon/>
In our national report, released in January, we saw T-Mobile win our
4G availability award by just a hair: while its users were able to
access 4G connections an average 93.1% of the time, Verizon was close
on its heels with scores of 92.7%.

[nospam]

In article <pmbcge$3ok$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> LOL. But does Face ID check for a live head?

absolutely.

> Fingerprints are much more unique, even among family members. It's
> extremely unlikely that either a family member, or some random person
> would ever pick up someone elses phone and be able to unlock it with a
> fingerprint.

nor can they with face id.

> The issue with Face ID is that it's easily fooled by people in the same
> family that look alike, and the problem is not limited to identical twins.

nonsense. stop making up shit.

identical twins are a known issue. other family members no.

> There's no reason why a phone should not have both face recognition and
> a fingerprint sensor. There are advantages to each one that go beyond
> which is more secure.

there is no reason to have both.

> It looks like Touch ID may be making a comeback,

it isn't.

[nospam]

In article <pmbdo0$b8u$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> The GPS is a battery hog. On my iPad Pro, a 5V 2.1A car adapter cannot
> keep up with the battery consumption when I'm running Google Maps or
> Waze,

you must have a defective power adapter.

>
> What probably occurred with the iPhone 6, 6s, 7, is that no one ever
> tested maximum load apps, at maximum screen brightness, with an older
> battery. Standard operating procedure for testing is to run a power
> virus program. But you normally don't try doing it with a degraded
> battery, because you design your DC-DC converter to be able to provide
> maximum current over a range of input voltages. It's not a huge range,
> it's basically 4.2V to about 3.4V for a single cell design. Below 3.4V
> you shut down. That's only a 0.8V range. The problem didn't begin
> showing up until the phones were old enough for the battery to begin to
> lose capacity.

nonsense.

[sms]

On 8/30/2018 8:15 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2018-08-30 21:18, Arlen Holder wrote:
>>
>> Had Apple simply *tested* their flawed design in the real world, they
>> wouldn't have had to subsequently secretly, drastically, and permanently
>> throttle people's CPUs to about half speed in about a year.

>
> Apple has plenty of in house expertise on batteries as well as how much
> power is needed by components such as CPU it designs itself and others
> such as camera where it sets the specs.

In the past they relied heavily on TI and Dialog for the power
conversion devices. Technically, the shutdowns and throttling were not a
battery issue, since the shutdowns occurred even when the battery still
had plenty of charge left. It was an issue that the power conversion
circuit was unable to provide sufficient current from a battery that was
aged to the point where the total capacity began to fall slightly. There
was nothing defective about the batteries in the iPhone 6, 6s, and 7,
they operated exactly as Li-Ion batteries are supposed to operate.

> Turns out that the 6s also happened to be when people stopped
> automatically upgrading every 2 years, so the problem started to happen
> again on the secon winter and this time enough people got it that the
> media got wind of it and Apple was forced to deal with it.

That's true. As people keep their phones longer, it became more of an issue.

> What is not known about the 8 and later models is whether Apple is
> providing a band aid to stop complaints for 2 years, or whether the
> problem is fixed in a way that allows 3-5 years of operation without
> problems. (aka: marketing fix vs engineering fix).

Based on teardowns that have been done of the later models, it's not a
bandaid. They have redesigned the power section and added a third Power
Management IC. There should now be no problem with an aging battery,
other than the normal issue of run-time decreasing as the battery ages.
You don't start adding more components unless there is a compelling
reason. See
<http://techinsights.com/about-techinsights/overview/blog/apple-iphone-8-teardown/#06>.

[nospam]

In article <pmbec1$f4k$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> Technically, the shutdowns and throttling were not a
> battery issue, since the shutdowns occurred even when the battery still
> had plenty of charge left.

it absolutely is a battery issue and unrelated to soc. an aging battery
can't source the same *current* as a healthy one, even when fully
charged.

it also happens to android phones and many other devices that have high
peak demands.

> It was an issue that the power conversion
> circuit was unable to provide sufficient current from a battery that was
> aged to the point where the total capacity began to fall slightly. There
> was nothing defective about the batteries in the iPhone 6, 6s, and 7,
> they operated exactly as Li-Ion batteries are supposed to operate.

false

[Arlen Holder]

On 31 Aug 2018 05:13:29 GMT, sms wrote:

> Verizon works great in the Santa Cruz mountains. And you don't need all
> that extra equipment that you need with one of the second tier carriers.
>
> AT&T works acceptably well, but not as good as Verizon, and has more
> areas with no coverage than Verizon.
>
> Sprint works poorly. Since Sprint does have a presence in the area, they
> limit roaming.
>
> T-Mobile works poorly. They have dropped much of the AT&T roaming that
> they used to have in this area because it was too expensive.

Hi sms,

I expect you to act like an adult, just like David Empson always does, and
like how you almost always do and like how JF Mezei mostly does, and like
how Rod Speed sometimes does, but unlike nospam, Lewis, BK@OnRamp, Jolly
Roger, Alan Baker, Tim Streater, etc., who never act like adults.

We're both highly educated.
We can talk to each other like adults do.

But being an adult means that we are beholden to actual facts.
Facts rule adults.

Reasonable adults can reasonably agree that conditions are different
depending on a huge variety of factors such as tower placement, antenna
aiming, topography, and distance.

In addition, in my California county, as you're likely well aware, we have
mandated glass (in the newer homes) that I have personally seen blocks
Wi-Fi frequencies like you can't believe (we measured the decibels directly
on multiple devices).

I know nospam calls that bullshit but I published the numbers, so, unlike
Rod Speed who makes claims without any shred of facts, at least I can back
up those claims, by multiple people, including my own WISP who is very
knowledgeable in such things.

Hence I don't doubt that your situation may appear to be different than
mine, even though we are likely only a score of miles apart. Also, I think
neither you nor I did an Apples-to-Apples detailed study of the signal
strength on the three carriers.

Unfortunately, even on Android, signal strength is only reported for the
carriers that are enabled in the phone at any given time, so I can only
report on signal strength decibels on T-Mobile.

Let me run a signal strength test at this very moment, so that you can
compare mine with yours. That would be what *adults* would do anyway.
1. I'll run a test inside the large sliding glass doors.
2. I'll run that test outside the large sliding glass doors.
3. I'll then pull the power on both the femtocell & the cellular repeater.
4. Then I'll run the tests of #1 and #2 above.

You can run a single test (since you don't have femtocells or cellular
repeaters in your house) and report your results. Those would be facts.

0. There are many free cellular signal strength utilities to choose from:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=88809410.jpg>

1. Here is the T-Mobile signal strength just inside the glass doors:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=52538241.jpg>

2. Here is the cellular signal strength just outside those same doors:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=55050812.jpg>

3. Here is a shot of the disconnected femtocell & cellular repeater:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=57046143.jpg>

4. Here is test 1 again, sans amplification:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=89348074.jpg>

5. Here is test 2 again, sans amplification:
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=64745415.jpg>

Let's be adults.
Adults comprehend facts.
Children don't comprehend facts.

So children say things that aren't based on facts all the time.
Adults should base their discussions on facts.

Usenet is more pleasurable and we learn more when adults use their facts.
What facts do *your* tests show?

BTW, notice from the unique Cell ID I can tell *exactly* what
tower/femtocell/repeated station I am connected to, which tells me when I'm
connected to my own home towers or to the external towers of T-Mobile.

Also notice I didn't correct for the change in cell tower (I could have,
but that would have taken more time). Also note that I can't run the same
survey at the same time and place for Verizon or AT&T simply because the
limitation of the Android phone/app is that it can only give me the
cellular signal strength of the provider that I currently am subscribed to.

So rest assured, as an adult, I know the flaws of my quick experiment.
Nonetheless, let's just see what the facts show in your adult experiment.

--
Note: The test takes only a minute to run, where sliding the screenshots to
Windows & editing & posting the pictures takes another minute, so I'm only
asking for two minutes of your time. There are plenty of similar apps, but
for this test, I used Network Cell Info Lite freeware, version 4.15,
com.wilysis.cellinfolite, on a $130 Android LG Stylo 3 Plus running Nougat.
The latest version is here (my version is off an APK saved from the past):
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.wilysis.cellinfolite>

[Arlen Holder]

On 31 Aug 2018 06:00:02 GMT, nospam wrote:

> <https://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/lte-comparison-map>
>
> according to that map, t-mobile is the only one covering bonny doon,
> with at&t and sprint covering davenport. verizon doesn't cover either
> particularly well or at all and also has some dead spots south of
> felton.

On this (and on James Comey), I agree with nospam, where adults will
reasonably see different coverages in different areas, particularly when
mountainous areas are affected such as we see in the Santa Cruz Mountains
such as, oh, say, "Twin Creeks, California, USA":
<https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=37.15606,-121.84412&z=14&b=mbt>

Adults who follow my example can type the following into nospam's URL
"Twin Creeks, California, USA"
And then click successively on the four carrier display buttons:
<https://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/lte-comparison-map>

A verbal assessment of what *everyone* can see for themselves is:
a. T-Mobile = splotchy
b. AT&T = splotchy
c. Sprint = empty
d. Verizon = splotchy

These aren't even tall mountains, mind you, as they're only about 2000 feet
(only about 600 meters), where the Santa Cruz Mountains have peaks double
that, which makes coverage in blind sided areas even more problematic.

My point is, and this one spot certainly proves it, that the coverage is
"about the same" in that "it sucks" in the mountains.
--

BTW, being an adult with adult comprehensive skills, I full well know the
flaws of that T-Mobile chart, where the chart gives a "bye" to all the
carriers as I hike extensively with other people (who have the other
carriers) in these mountains and to the lowest level that you can zoom on
that map, I *know* for certain that there is no coverage in areas that are
indicated as having coverage so even this map is optimistic for _all_ the
carriers.

[Arlen Holder]

On 31 Aug 2018 06:03:57 GMT, sms wrote:

> There
> was nothing defective about the batteries in the iPhone 6, 6s, and 7,
> they operated exactly as Li-Ion batteries are supposed to operate.

Since we are expected to act like adults, I only wish to point out that
adults can reasonably argue that the *size* of the batteries would almost
certainly have made a huge difference.

So while the *internals* of the battery are almost certainly just like all
other similar batteries, the design flaw isn't in the internals of the
battery (which Apple & nospam so very much love to point out).

The design flaw is most likely in the *pairing* of the electrical
capabilities of the battery to the needs of the device, where those
"electrical capabilities" are hugely influenced by sheer size and density
(although there is a lot that goes on chemically inside a battery, such as
impedance changes due to a variety of manufacturing & chemical factors).

In short, the *size* of the battery is, IMHO, the most likely flaw, and not
so much the actual size, but the *pairing* of the size to the needs of the
device.

This fact is clear:
*Apple never fully _tested_ their devices in the real world.*
[Apple let's the _user_ run their real-world tests for them!]

[sms]

On 8/30/2018 9:28 AM, JF Mezei wrote:

<snip>

> Your best guess appears to be right. Apple sent out the invites today.

I received one, as did one of my colleagues.

The problem now is that my wife, son, brother, niece, and friends
somehow expect me to be able to get them free Apple stuff or to take
them along, and though they are joking, there's a hint of seriousness!
It doesn't work that way. The invitation is for one person and is
non-transferable. There are no free iPhones or watches. Last year, two
of my other colleagues went, and they did get a photo with Tim Cook.

Friend (Apple employee) "Can I be your +1?"

Niece: "as your #1 niece, I’m just gonna expect the new iPhone!"

Son: "So am I getting a free iPhone?" Me: "Yes, which model do you
want?" Son: "The newest most expensive one"

Brother: "As your only brother, I'll take an Apple Watch (latest
generation, please)."

Friend: "I wanna go , PLEASE"

Wife: "I haven't been supporting you enough, I'm willing to accompany you."

It's like I won the lottery and everybody wants something! I appreciated
the invitation, but what I did for Apple I would have done for any
company. And I'm supposed to be attending a conference that day so I
don't know if I can even go.

[Arlen Holder]

On 31 Aug 2018 06:10:55 GMT, nospam wrote:

> it also happens to android phones and many other devices that have high
> peak demands.

Every time you make that childishly stupid statement, adults will have to
point out to you that only Apple resorted to *secretly*, *drastically*, and
*permanently* suddenly chopping CPU speeds to less than half the original
speeds after about a year.

The problem has nothing, per se, to do with batteries, since battery
chemistry is well known and since Apple doesn't have any edge on battery
chemistry over anyone else.

It's clear to *intelligent* adults that the problem was the *pairing* of
that specific battery to that specific hardware was flawed.

It's also apparent, as I recall, that Apple *said* they were flummoxed at
first, and then Apple *said* they had it under control a bit later, and
that Apple finally decided to *secretly* chop CPUs to less than half speed.

While children can't connect the factual dots, logical sentient adults can.

Clearly there is evidence (and outside reports that) Apple didn't test
their devices properly in the real world to catch this problem (or, if as
JF Mezei hints, the engineers did test it - but Marketing wouldn't let the
engineers halt production - then Apple made a decision to release the
flawed devices anyway).

Either way, what's clear is that batteries are batteries and devices are
devices, but you can't expect a dog to pull a horsecart.

Clearly...
*Apple made a bad decision in the _pairing_ of the device to the battery.*
Then...
*Apple made a worse decision to _secretly_ throttle users' CPUs.*

Those are facts only the ill-educated children like nospam dispute.
Reasonable adults have no problem with this logical assessment of facts.

[nospam]

In article <pmbnoc$btp$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> > Apple sent out the invites today.
>
> I received one, as did one of my colleagues.

why? are you now a journalist?

nearly everything you say about apple is demonstrably wrong.

[sms]

On 8/31/2018 5:45 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:

<snip>

> You may be correct that they put duct tape inside of the iPhone 8,

Kapton tape is widely used in phone assembly, but I highly doubt if
anyone uses duct tape. It's way too thick. Kapton tape is a very thin,
static resistant, tape. The first time I saw it used I was kind of
shocked and thought it was tacky (no pun intended), but it holds pieces
in place during assembly and is very useful. On a device that isn't
intended to be opened up for anything other than to change a battery,
it's just fine to use. I use it a lot in prototypes that I assemble.

[sms]

On 8/31/2018 8:43 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:

<snip>

> The design flaw is most likely in the *pairing* of the electrical
> capabilities of the battery to the needs of the device, where those
> "electrical capabilities" are hugely influenced by sheer size and density
> (although there is a lot that goes on chemically inside a battery, such as
> impedance changes due to a variety of manufacturing & chemical factors).

No. The only implication of the battery capacity is that it affects the
run time. A larger capacity battery would also have had the same
degradation over time.

There was NOTHING wrong with the batteries that they chose. A new
battery mitigates the shutdown issue because it has higher voltage and
lower internal resistance so it can provide more power (P=V x I). But
there is no reason a properly designed DC-DC regulator cannot work at
lower voltage and current, it would just drain the battery faster.

Replacing the battery didn't fix the root cause of the problem, but it
was sufficient to mitigate the problem for at least another year or two.

As someone else pointed out, the fact that users are keeping their
phones longer than in the past, for multiple reasons, including the
changes in the subsidy model from carriers, contributed to this issue.

You and I differ as to the mitigation. I think what Apple did is
sufficient, with the discounted battery replacement. At three to four
years the owner that keeps a phone that long would have to pay full
price to Apple or to a third party for another replacement, but that's a
small price to pay.

[nospam]

In article <pmbpje$ooj$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> No. The only implication of the battery capacity is that it affects the
> run time.

nope. a larger capacity battery has a longer run time for the same
current draw, but the issue here is that the ability to provide peak
demands is also lower.

> A larger capacity battery would also have had the same
> degradation over time.

true, except that it would be able to handle higher demands than a
lower capacity battery, which is why the ipads don't have this issue.

> There was NOTHING wrong with the batteries that they chose.

correct. it's normal degradation inherent in all batteries.

> A new
> battery mitigates the shutdown issue because it has higher voltage and
> lower internal resistance so it can provide more power (P=V x I).

nope. voltage depends on soc. internal resistance increases as the
battery ages, which is one way to determine battery health.

> But
> there is no reason a properly designed DC-DC regulator cannot work at
> lower voltage and current, it would just drain the battery faster.

it doesn't work that way.

ipads, some of which have the same internal power components are not
affected, the reason being that they have a higher capacity battery
which can provide peak demands without issue.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-30 20:16, nospam wrote:

>> Changing DC-DC to give it better voltage range is an interesting
>> solution.
>
> it's not a solution. if the battery can't source sufficient power,
> there's nothing a dc-dc converter can do.

It can be a solution for temporary power spike such as starting camera.

For longer high power draws, it doesn't work so well. (But that would
be when the CPU is throttled to prevent lower term power abuse)

[nospam]

In article <BcfiD.40772$4S3....@fx47.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> >> Changing DC-DC to give it better voltage range is an interesting
> >> solution.
> >
> > it's not a solution. if the battery can't source sufficient power,
> > there's nothing a dc-dc converter can do.
>
> It can be a solution for temporary power spike such as starting camera.

it can't.

> For longer high power draws, it doesn't work so well. (But that would
> be when the CPU is throttled to prevent lower term power abuse)

the throttling is only to limit peak demands, which can cause sudden
shutdowns or other problems. in normal usage, there is no need to limit
it.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-30 22:14, David Empson wrote:

> Another issue to keep in mind is software support. An iPhone 6s (or SE)
> bought now is probably only going to get three more years of iOS
> updates: iOS 12, 13 and 14.

If this year,s models don't tickle my fancy, getting a "new" 6s is the
lower cost option to keep a full function phone until a later year when
a more compelling model is released. Or I may keep my current 6s an
extra year.

[nospam]

In article <EtfiD.40773$4S3....@fx47.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

>
> If this year,s models don't tickle my fancy, getting a "new" 6s is the
> lower cost option to keep a full function phone until a later year when
> a more compelling model is released.

that will cost more in the long run than getting something now.

> Or I may keep my current 6s an
> extra year.

if it lasts that long, given all the mods you've done.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-31 00:01, nospam wrote:

> touchid requires a live finger and faceid requires a live face.

Actually no. It requires a 3d face, not a 2d picture as Androids did.

Infrared has no way to tell if your face is alive.

With touchID, it measures capacitance/resistance, and I believe when
dead, the fingers have much less of it. (I think because they dry up,
but not sure).

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-31 08:45, Arlen Holder wrote:

> Yup. Nobody said that Apple didn't have experts.
> Nobody also said that they don't make mistakes.
>
> What's important is that they never caught their mistakes before release.
> That's clearly because they didn't test their phones in the real world.


I disagree. It is perfectly possible (and likely) that the engineers
were aware of it, but marketing pushed to ignopre this problem, thinking
it woudl happen far into future at a time when focus woudl be on later
models.

I also suspect that at that time, they agreed to the composise on
battery/power thinking 6s would last one year, not realizing that it
would become a "permanent" model and thius its problem would surface
enough to get media attention and force Apple to do recalls.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-31 09:10, nospam wrote:

> it absolutely is a battery issue

Not really. Batteries have known properties and batteries are behaving
as before. Engineers are expected to build a device that considers
battery behavious after a year, and/or in cold weather.

For the 6s, they designed a device whose max power draw was well within
the limits for a new unit, but not for a 1 year old battery.

Yes, battery degrade over time. But this is not new and is well known.
And I am pretty sure Apple knows very well how they degrade in various
conditions.

> it also happens to android phones and many other devices that have high
> peak demands.

Yes, because marketing always pushes to buyld phones with amazing specs
that beat the competitor and previous year products. Pushed beyond the
limist of what lithium ion batteries can provide when squeezed into such
small form factor.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-31 11:44, sms wrote:

> It's like I won the lottery and everybody wants something!

I'd ask to come with you so I can ride the elevator at the Steve Jobs
theatre. Pretty amazing piece of design. If you haven't seen it, look
it up on youtube.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-08-31 12:15, sms wrote:

> No. The only implication of the battery capacity is that it affects the
> run time. A larger capacity battery would also have had the same
> degradation over time.

Same % degradation. But after a year, the degraded bigger battery would
still be able to supply enough current to meet peak demands by phone.

[nospam]

In article <JyfiD.45544$Ac3....@fx45.iad>, JF Mezei

<jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

>
> > touchid requires a live finger and faceid requires a live face.
>
> Actually no.

actually yes.

> It requires a 3d face, not a 2d picture as Androids did.

and one which is alive.

android's face detection is a joke. samsung's face unlock was spoofed
moments after the product announcement, in the hands-on area, with a
selfie taken on another phone. samsung knows it's easily spoofed which
is why it's only used for unlocking and cannot be used for financial
transactions, something they said would take several years to
implement.

meanwhile, apple's face id is used to make purchases every single day,
by millions of people.

> Infrared has no way to tell if your face is alive.

yes it does.

face id also requires the user to look at the phone, which can be
disabled for those who have an impairment that prevents that.

<https://www.quora.com/How-well-does-Apples-face-ID-distinguish-between-
a-user-who-is-dead-awake-asleep-or-unconscious>
Apple零 FaceID is able to detect if the eyes are open (or closed), in
combination with subtle movements of the facial muscles, movement of
head, 3d depth modelling, movement of device, blinking, pulse/blushing.

> With touchID, it measures capacitance/resistance, and I believe when
> dead, the fingers have much less of it. (I think because they dry up,
> but not sure).

touch id needs a finger that's alive.

there's a brief time just after the person dies, where their finger
will still work, but it's not very long (minutes, not hours).

a passcode will always be required after multiple failed attempts or 48
hours.