Apple announces Self Service Repair

[badgolferman]

Apple parts, tools, and manuals — starting with iPhone 12 and iPhone 13 —
available to individual consumers

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/11/apple-announces-self-service-repair/

[Alan Browne]

Starting with the phones that least need parts? Sheesh! We need parts
for the older phones first.

Starting with M1 based computers? Sheesh - it's the older crap that
will need parts.

Real life is repairing the older things first:

Recently bought a new garage door opener. ('cause the 42 year old one
died and I couldn't get that motor anymore. Bastards! It was so young![1]).

The new opener comes with an exploded parts view and part number list
and 1-800 number to get the parts if you're not into the whole internet
thing. Says it's a "10 year+ motor". Wimps.

[1] And the 42 year old central vac cleaner motor died a month earlier.
I could get a new motor that fit, but only from France in 220VAC...

Good thing the 42 year old furnace is repairable still ... plenty of F^3
parts available. (Changed the motor about 5 years ago and various other
components over the last 15 years...).

--
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man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens

[Ant]

"Woah."


badgolferman <REMOVETHISb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apple parts, tools, and manuals ??? starting with iPhone 12 and iPhone 13 ???

> available to individual consumers

> https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/11/apple-announces-self-service-repair/

--
Is summer finally over? Weather, buggy and slammy life are so crazy! Being old sucks. :(
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
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\ _ /
( )

[gtr]

Apple parts, tools, and manuals - starting with iPhone 12 and iPhone 13 are
now available to individual consumers as of today.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/11/apple-announces-self-service-repair/

Soon to be followed by Mac computers featuring M1 chips.

[gtr]

Apple's previous resistance has been widely seen as both greedy, and
inconsistent with the company's environmental stance.

Another Apple PR fail as company waits until forced to act over Right to
Repair

https://9to5mac.com/2021/11/17/comment-another-apple-pr-fail/

[Your Name]

A. Most people still won't be able to or bother fixing their own devices.

B. It only applies to current/new models from now onwards. You can forget
about trying to fix/upgrade an older iMac.

[gtr]

On 2021-11-17 22:58:30 +0000, Your Name said:
> Most people still won't be able to or bother fixing their own devices.

If what you mean by "most people" is your average helpless grandmother,
then sure, anyone who has never even fixed a toaster can't fix anything.

But if it's anyone who wasn't born before around 1930 who wants to fix it
who has even half a brain, why can't they replace their screen or battery
themselves, especially given the near perfect vetted iFixit step by step
instructions and many other helpful iPhone fixit videos on the internet?

Most people aren't helpless. They should be able to fix their own phone.

[Your Name]

"Should be able to", yes in a legal sense, but they simply aren't going
to bother.

You believe whatever "me and my two geeky firends" silliness you want
to, but in the real world the fact is that 90%+ of owners won't be
self-repairing anything, and Apple knows that. Most people simply don't
have the time nor the inclination, let alone the skill, to do it. Few
owners will even know the 'Self Service Repair' program exists anyway.
The only ones who'll benefit are a pitiful small number of nerds and
geeks (the loud mouths who have been whinging on about wanting to be
able to do self-repairs, but don't have the skill to already do so via
parts from place like iFixIt), plus no doubt a pile of dubious
fly-by-night "tech repair" businesses that will spring up run from
their home bedroom / garage.

[nospam]

In article <sn6ao1$vsc$1...@dont-email.me>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> > Most people still won't be able to or bother fixing their own devices.
>
> If what you mean by "most people" is your average helpless grandmother,
> then sure, anyone who has never even fixed a toaster can't fix anything.
>
> But if it's anyone who wasn't born before around 1930 who wants to fix it
> who has even half a brain, why can't they replace their screen or battery
> themselves, especially given the near perfect vetted iFixit step by step
> instructions and many other helpful iPhone fixit videos on the internet?

because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.

> Most people aren't helpless. They should be able to fix their own phone.

why? there's not much inside that's user repairable.

why stop at phones? how about microwave ovens. so what if it's not
sealed properly. a little microwave leakage never hurt anyone. just
don't stand near it when it's in use.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 18.11.21 um 20:49 schrieb gtr:

Total loss of reality.


--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[gtr]

On 2021-11-18 13:41:24 +0000, nospam said:
> because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
> replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.

Are you really worried about replacing a piece of glass or a battery?

>> Most people aren't helpless. They should be able to fix their own phone.
>
> why? there's not much inside that's user repairable.

You've never seen a phone with a broken screen or a degraded battery?

> why stop at phones? how about microwave ovens. so what if it's not
> sealed properly. a little microwave leakage never hurt anyone. just
> don't stand near it when it's in use.

Apple is saying they allowed this new ability to fix your phone for the
consumer's benefit as it opens up access to genuine Apple parts channels.

"Creating greater access to Apple genuine parts gives our customers even
more choice if a repair is needed, Jeff Williams, Apple's chief operating
officer, said in a statement."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/technology/personaltech/apple-iphone-self-repair.html

What do you think is wrong with that?

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-11-18, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>
> Apple's previous resistance has been widely seen as both greedy, and
> inconsistent

Not by everyone, nope. Some just love to cast everything Apple does in
as negative a light as possible. And gullible idiots don't give much
thought to the whole biased "Apple BAD, Apple anti-repair!!!" line
before falling for it, hook, line, and sinker. There's no nuance with
gullible idiots wearing black and white glasses. Another dip shit here
complained that Apple wasn't including even older models of iPhones,
iPads, and Macs - as if it supposedly makes better business sense to
invest time and energy into creating repair programs and continuing to
make new parts for old devices that most people don't use rather than
simply phasing them out and recycling them. "WAHHHH!!!! I want Mac SE
parts too!", cried the fools.

> Another Apple PR fail as company waits until forced to act over Right
> to Repair

That's a biased, negative take on it. A more level-headed take is that
creating programs like this - especially for a company the size of Apple
- simply takes time, and nobody "forced" apple to do it - Apple simply
took as much time as they needed to do it in a way that would work for
them and customers.

But haters gonna hate - it's all they've got, after all.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[nospam]

In article <sn6jh3$vbh$1...@dont-email.me>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> > because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
> > replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.
>
> Are you really worried about replacing a piece of glass or a battery?

i'm not, but most people would never attempt it.

> >> Most people aren't helpless. They should be able to fix their own phone.
> >
> > why? there's not much inside that's user repairable.
>
> You've never seen a phone with a broken screen or a degraded battery?

replacing the battery has always been possible and relatively easy.
amazon and others sell kits, including both the battery and the
necessary tools.

replacing the display is quite a bit more involved. it's not a simple
pop off the old and snap on the new. make a mistake and you're looking
at a much bigger repair than just the display.

> > why stop at phones? how about microwave ovens. so what if it's not
> > sealed properly. a little microwave leakage never hurt anyone. just
> > don't stand near it when it's in use.
>
> Apple is saying they allowed this new ability to fix your phone for the
> consumer's benefit as it opens up access to genuine Apple parts channels.

yep. getting genuine parts is always a plus.

> "Creating greater access to Apple genuine parts gives our customers even
> more choice if a repair is needed, Jeff Williams, Apple's chief operating
> officer, said in a statement."
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/technology/personaltech/apple-iphone-self-r
> epair.html
>
> What do you think is wrong with that?

nothing.

it's your take that's wrong.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-11-17, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
> Starting with the phones that least need parts? Sheesh! We need
> parts for the older phones first.
>
> Starting with M1 based computers? Sheesh - it's the older crap that
> will need parts.

Some dip shits will just never be happy.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-11-18, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <sn6jh3$vbh$1...@dont-email.me>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>>
>> You've never seen a phone with a broken screen or a degraded battery?
>
> replacing the battery has always been possible and relatively easy.
> amazon and others sell kits, including both the battery and the
> necessary tools.

And even with that relatively simple repair, there are very real risks
of making costly and potentially dangerous mistakes.

> replacing the display is quite a bit more involved. it's not a simple
> pop off the old and snap on the new. make a mistake and you're looking
> at a much bigger repair than just the display.

Yep. The deeper you go, the more can go wrong along the way. And
relatively "small" mistakes can result in much more costly damage.

[gtr]

On 2021-11-18 14:26:44 +0000, Jolly Roger said:

>> Another Apple PR fail as company waits until forced to act over Right
>> to Repair
>
> That's a biased, negative take on it. A more level-headed take is that
> creating programs like this - especially for a company the size of Apple

> simply takes time, and nobody "forced" apple to do it. Apple simply

> took as much time as they needed to do it in a way that would work for
> them and customers.

To be sure you understood, those words were from 9to5mac.com, not me.
https://9to5mac.com/2021/11/17/comment-another-apple-pr-fail/

9to5mac says Apple previously opposed the right for consumers to repair.

"This is a major announcement from Apple, which has generally opposed any
sort of at-home or even third-party repairs."
https://9to5mac.com/2021/11/17/apple-launches-self-service-repair-allowing-you-to-do-your-own-iphone-screen-repairs-and-more/

Many pros who know how to repair phones have long said Apple made it hard
for consumers and third-party shops to repair their phones, didn't they?

"Apple has made iPhone repairs increasingly difficult for third-party shops,
said Kyle Wiens, chief executive of iFixit"
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/technology/personaltech/apple-iphone-self-repair.html

Are you telling us everyone is wrong about Apple's except for you?
How is your opinion worth more than that of all the professionals?

[gtr]

On 2021-11-18 14:39:30 +0000, nospam said:
>>> because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
>>> replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.
>>
>> Are you really worried about replacing a piece of glass or a battery?
>
> i'm not, but most people would never attempt it.

Most people don't change their own car battery or windscreen either.
They go to an independent shop who can easily replace with genuine parts.

>>>> Most people aren't helpless. They should be able to fix their own phone.
>>>
>>> why? there's not much inside that's user repairable.
>>
>> You've never seen a phone with a broken screen or a degraded battery?
>
> replacing the battery has always been possible and relatively easy.
> amazon and others sell kits, including both the battery and the
> necessary tools.
>
> replacing the display is quite a bit more involved. it's not a simple
> pop off the old and snap on the new. make a mistake and you're looking
> at a much bigger repair than just the display.
>>> why stop at phones? how about microwave ovens. so what if it's not
>>> sealed properly. a little microwave leakage never hurt anyone. just
>>> don't stand near it when it's in use.
>>
>> Apple is saying they allowed this new ability to fix your phone for the
>> consumer's benefit as it opens up access to genuine Apple parts channels.
>
> yep. getting genuine parts is always a plus.
>
>> "Creating greater access to Apple genuine parts gives our customers even
>> more choice if a repair is needed, Jeff Williams, Apple's chief operating
>> officer, said in a statement."
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/technology/personaltech/apple-iphone-self-r
>> epair.html
>>
>> What do you think is wrong with that?
>
> nothing.
>
> it's your take that's wrong.

I didn't even say what my take was.
Everything I wrote was from the industry professionals.

Why would you think all those professionals are wrong and you're not?

[Alan Browne]

On 2021-11-18 16:41, nospam wrote:
> In article <sn6ao1$vsc$1...@dont-email.me>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>
>>> Most people still won't be able to or bother fixing their own devices.
>>
>> If what you mean by "most people" is your average helpless grandmother,
>> then sure, anyone who has never even fixed a toaster can't fix anything.
>>
>> But if it's anyone who wasn't born before around 1930 who wants to fix it
>> who has even half a brain, why can't they replace their screen or battery
>> themselves, especially given the near perfect vetted iFixit step by step
>> instructions and many other helpful iPhone fixit videos on the internet?
>
> because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
> replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.

Not really. There are far fewer parts in an iPhone that can be replaced
than there were tubes and other parts in a television that could be
replaced. (Remembers Dad at the pharmacy's tube testing console ...).

>
>> Most people aren't helpless. They should be able to fix their own phone.
>
> why? there's not much inside that's user repairable.

Many things are replaceable from the glass to the battery to other
components. The key things is to get those parts. I've seen my son
repair a half dozen iPhones with parts from "donors" with little trouble.

>
> why stop at phones? how about microwave ovens. so what if it's not
> sealed properly. a little microwave leakage never hurt anyone. just
> don't stand near it when it's in use.

Typical of you to choose a case that casts doubt. There are plenty of
user repairable things around that most people can do if they want.
I've repaired plenty myself (starting young) and won't stop. And I"ve
saved a bunch of money by doing so while reducing waste.

(Failed twice recently too on two 42 year old devices: central vac and
garage door opener - no motors available).

The key thing is companies should not be putting up barriers to it and
Apple have been doing so for a long time. This action is a small
(small) movement in the right direction.

[Alan Browne]

You're not the arbiter. And when you consider the sheer number of Apple
iPhones out there, if even 10% of them were repaired by owners or small
shops that would be a tremendous thing. iFixIt make good money out of
this niche.

There are also dozens of shops in every moderate to large city who
repair these things for a fee and do a fine job. (My iPhone 6+ busted
glass: repaired at an independent shop, went on for another 4 years...)

And of course most importantly: you're not the judge of all this.

It just offends you for some bizarre reason.

[Alan Browne]

On 2021-11-18 17:42, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2021-11-17, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>
>> Starting with the phones that least need parts? Sheesh! We need
>> parts for the older phones first.
>>
>> Starting with M1 based computers? Sheesh - it's the older crap that
>> will need parts.
>
> Some dip shits will just never be happy.

Yes, you're always unhappy when people point out glaring truths.

[Alan Browne]

On 2021-11-18 17:47, gtr wrote:

> Are you telling us everyone is wrong about Apple's except for you?
> How is your opinion worth more than that of all the professionals?

He's not big with inconvenient truth.

[Alan Browne]

On 2021-11-18 17:56, gtr wrote:

> Why would you think all those professionals are wrong and you're not?

He's never wrong. Says so himself.

[nospam]

In article <sn6lmo$d2o$1...@dont-email.me>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> >>> because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
> >>> replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.
> >>
> >> Are you really worried about replacing a piece of glass or a battery?
> >
> > i'm not, but most people would never attempt it.
>
> Most people don't change their own car battery or windscreen either.

which is why some cars put the battery where there's available space
instead of where it's convenient to the owner. i've seen cars with the
battery in the wheel well. want to replace the battery? better have a
jack and a lug wrench handy.

i knew someone who had a car where getting to the oil filter required
removing a wheel.

> They go to an independent shop who can easily replace with genuine parts.

or more likely, aftermarket parts.

[nospam]

In article <CHBlJ.92779$AJ2....@fx33.iad>, Alan Browne

<bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:

>
> Many things are replaceable from the glass to the battery to other
> components. The key things is to get those parts.

getting parts is easy. repairing it is not.

> I've seen my son
> repair a half dozen iPhones with parts from "donors" with little trouble.

he should get a job at a repair shop.

[gtr]

On 2021-11-18 15:58:54 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>>> Starting with the phones that least need parts? Sheesh! We need
>>> parts for the older phones first.
>>>
>>> Starting with M1 based computers? Sheesh - it's the older crap that
>>> will need parts.
>>
>> Some dip shits will just never be happy.
>
> Yes, you're always unhappy when people point out glaring truths.

I thought you brought up a good point that Apple made the original parts
available only for the newer phones and computers which need them the least.

Also I thought Jolly Roger's point that they have to start somewhere so
starting with current models isn't a perfect starting point from the
standpoint of the consumer perhaps but it makes sense for Apple to do it.

His uncalled for insults had no business in this topic even as his point and
your point were both valid when approached from different perspectives imho.

[gtr]

On 2021-11-18 15:57:40 +0000, Alan Browne said:
> And of course most importantly: you're not the judge of all this.
>
> It just offends you for some bizarre reason.

I don't know what about it offended some of them as Apple is 100% behind
this and Apple said that they did it for the consumer to get genuine parts.

What argument do they have against that?

[gtr]

Aftermarket parts are as good or better than oem if they're of good quality.
Often they cost less. Sometimes they cost more. Often they're of equal or
better materials & workmanship.

Just being "aftermarket" doesn't make them bad except in the eyes of Apple.
(And that's only because Apple doesn't make any money on aftermarket parts.)

In terms of Apple aftermarket parts, you can buy quality aftermarket cables
and accessories and batteries that are as good or much better than Apple,
and usually at a better price than what Apple charges for their repairs.

Besides, Apple says they did all this to make available their genuine parts
for consumers and independent repair shops to use which makes the
aftermarket point moot if the price of those Apple parts is reasonable.

[Your Name]

On 2021-11-19 01:38:54 +0000, gtr said:
> On 2021-11-18 16:06:30 +0000, nospam said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
>>>>>> replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you really worried about replacing a piece of glass or a battery?
>>>>
>>>> i'm not, but most people would never attempt it.
>>>
>>> Most people don't change their own car battery or windscreen either.
>>
>> which is why some cars put the battery where there's available space
>> instead of where it's convenient to the owner. i've seen cars with the
>> battery in the wheel well. want to replace the battery? better have a
>> jack and a lug wrench handy.
>>
>> i knew someone who had a car where getting to the oil filter required
>> removing a wheel.
>>
>>> They go to an independent shop who can easily replace with genuine parts.
>>
>> or more likely, aftermarket parts.
>
> Aftermarket parts are as good or better than oem if they're of good
> quality. Often they cost less. Sometimes they cost more. Often they're
> of equal or better materials & workmanship.
> Just being "aftermarket" doesn't make them bad except in the eyes of Apple.
> (And that's only because Apple doesn't make any money on aftermarket parts.)

True, "Aftermarket" isn't neccessarily bad ... but you do have to be
wary. Some of them are cheap precisely because they do use substandard
parts or manufacturing, skip corners, of employ child slaves working
120-hour, 20c wages per week. Some have no guarantee/warranty or even
any way to contact the makers/sellers. In some cases aftermarket parts
can even be outright dangerous and known so by the manufacturer/seller!

> In terms of Apple aftermarket parts, you can buy quality aftermarket
> cables and accessories and batteries that are as good or much better
> than Apple, and usually at a better price than what Apple charges for
> their repairs.
>
> Besides, Apple says they did all this to make available their genuine
> parts for consumers and independent repair shops to use which makes the
> aftermarket point moot if the price of those Apple parts is reasonable.

Unfortuantely OEM parts are rarely priced reasonably - Apple's pricing
for RAM and drives prove that point. :-( They certainly aren't the
only ones either ... try getting a simplr lightbulb for a high end
sportscar from the dealership and you'll need a second mortgage,
instead of a good quality third-party lightbulb from an auto-spares
shop for a couple of dollars.

Some places will also put on their own markup to the price of the
parts, even without any labour for the actual repair work.

[Michael Trew]

On 11/18/2021 16:41, nospam wrote:
> because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
> replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.

Replacing a valve? Do you mean to say capacitor? I'm not sure why
there is plumbing inside of your television, that's kind of odd.

[Your Name]

You're either showing your under-age lack of knowledge or your
stupidity thinking you're being funny.

"Valve" is simply another name for "vacuum tube". There are a few other
names too. Old CRT TVs (colour as well as monochrome) did have them
inside, as did old radios too.
<http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-011.htm>
<https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/valve-colour-tv-pye-ct203-277211311>

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-11-18, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> On 2021-11-18 14:26:44 +0000, Jolly Roger said:
>
>>> Another Apple PR fail as company waits until forced to act over
>>> Right to Repair
>>
>> That's a biased, negative take on it. A more level-headed take is
>> that creating programs like this - especially for a company the size
>> of Apple simply takes time, and nobody "forced" apple to do it. Apple
>> simply took as much time as they needed to do it in a way that would
>> work for them and customers.
>
> To be sure you understood, those words were from 9to5mac.com, not me.

That changes nothing I said. Sorry.

> Many pros who know how to repair phones have long said Apple made it
> hard for consumers and third-party shops to repair their phones,
> didn't they?

I happen to be one such professional who has repaired many, many Apple
devices. You tuned into the ones who echoed your bias, and ignored the
rest.

> Are you telling us everyone is wrong about Apple's except for you?
> How is your opinion worth more than that of all the professionals?

Sorry, but your "everyone" isn't everyone. Simple as that. Yet you
ignore the others, simply because they disagree with your bias.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-11-19, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
> He's not big with inconvenient truth.

Projection.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-11-18, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2021-11-18 17:42, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2021-11-17, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Starting with the phones that least need parts? Sheesh! We need
>>> parts for the older phones first.
>>>
>>> Starting with M1 based computers? Sheesh - it's the older crap that
>>> will need parts.
>>
>> Some dip shits will just never be happy.
>
> Yes, you're always unhappy when people point out glaring truths.

"I know you are, but what am I?" *YAWN*

[gtr]

On 2021-11-18 22:08:39 +0000, Jolly Roger said:
> On 2021-11-18, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>> On 2021-11-18 14:26:44 +0000, Jolly Roger said:
>>
>>>> Another Apple PR fail as company waits until forced to act over
>>>> Right to Repair
>>>
>>> That's a biased, negative take on it. A more level-headed take is
>>> that creating programs like this - especially for a company the size
>>> of Apple simply takes time, and nobody "forced" apple to do it. Apple
>>> simply took as much time as they needed to do it in a way that would
>>> work for them and customers.
>>
>> To be sure you understood, those words were from 9to5mac.com, not me.
>
> That changes nothing I said. Sorry.
>
>> Many pros who know how to repair phones have long said Apple made it
>> hard for consumers and third-party shops to repair their phones,
>> didn't they?
>
> I happen to be one such professional who has repaired many, many Apple
> devices. You tuned into the ones who echoed your bias, and ignored the
> rest.
>
>> Are you telling us everyone is wrong about Apple's except for you?
>> How is your opinion worth more than that of all the professionals?
>
> Sorry, but your "everyone" isn't everyone. Simple as that. Yet you
> ignore the others, simply because they disagree with your bias.

What others?
You didn't reference anyone but yourself.

[sms]

Are you unaware of water-cooled televisions?
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlFVPnGEb8o>.

[sms]

On 11/17/2021 9:31 PM, gtr wrote:
> Apple parts, tools, and manuals - starting with iPhone 12 and iPhone 13 are
> now available to individual consumers as of today.
>
> https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/11/apple-announces-self-service-repair/
>
> Soon to be followed by Mac computers featuring M1 chips.

Wow. A preemptive strike against right-to-repair laws. How far will this
go? It's not too hard for an end-user to replace the glass or the
battery on a phone, but beyond that what parts are easy to replace?

[gtr]

On 2021-11-19 01:50:20 +0000, sms said:
>> Soon to be followed by Mac computers featuring M1 chips.
>
> Wow. A preemptive strike against right-to-repair laws.
> How far will this go?

You're right that it's a preemptive strike by Apple.
Apple had little choice according to what I've read.

Apple had two choices (afaict) which were to let the government make them do
what's right for the consumer or do what's right on their own and they could
have all the fun they want saying they did it altruistically for the benefit
of the consumer because they're such a nice company that cares about people.

> It's not too hard for an end-user to replace the glass or the
> battery on a phone, but beyond that what parts are easy to replace?

All the references mentioned three components (screen, battery, & camera).
I think the "big deal" isn't that Apple is making repair easier.
I think the "big deal" is that anyone can buy Apple authentic parts now.

Other than screen, battery, and camera, what normally breaks on an iPhone?

[nospam]

In article <sn79fr$pfp$1...@dont-email.me>, Michael Trew

<michae...@att.net> wrote:

> > because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
> > replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.
>
> Replacing a valve?

valve is another name for vacuum tube, which is why i wrote
valve/vacuum tube.

> Do you mean to say capacitor?

no.

> I'm not sure why
> there is plumbing inside of your television, that's kind of odd.

there is not.

[Lewis]

Did you actually read the announcement linked above? I think not.

"Available first for the iPhone 12 and iPhone 13 lineups, and soon to be
followed by Mac computers featuring M1 chips, Self Service Repair will
be available early next year in the US and expand to additional
countries throughout 2022."

and

"The new store will offer more than 200 individual parts and tools,
enabling customers to complete the most common repairs on iPhone 12 and
iPhone 13."

--
Ziggy plays guitar

[Alan Browne]

On 2021-11-18 19:06, nospam wrote:
> In article <CHBlJ.92779$AJ2....@fx33.iad>, Alan Browne
> <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Many things are replaceable from the glass to the battery to other
>> components. The key things is to get those parts.
>
> getting parts is easy. repairing it is not.

Depends on the repair. And with guides such as iFixIt (as well as the
tools), much easier.

>
>> I've seen my son
>> repair a half dozen iPhones with parts from "donors" with little trouble.
>
> he should get a job at a repair shop.

A lot below his pay grade.

[Alan Browne]

On 2021-11-18 20:25, gtr wrote:
> On 2021-11-18 15:58:54 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>>>> Starting with the phones that least need parts?  Sheesh!  We need
>>>> parts for the older phones first.
>>>>
>>>> Starting with M1 based computers?  Sheesh - it's the older crap that
>>>> will need parts.
>>>
>>> Some dip shits will just never be happy.
>>
>> Yes, you're always unhappy when people point out glaring truths.
>
> I thought you brought up a good point that Apple made the original parts
> available only for the newer phones and computers which need them the
> least.
>
> Also I thought Jolly Roger's point that they have to start somewhere so
> starting with current models isn't a perfect starting point from the
> standpoint of the consumer perhaps but it makes sense for Apple to do it.

The only reason I can see for Apple to do later model parts first is
because those production lines / suppliers are up and so adding part
counts for this added venture make sense.

OTOH, these new computers are not only least likely to need a repair,
they are still under warranty, so one would not likely want to touch it
at all.

>
> His uncalled for insults had no business in this topic even as his point
> and
> your point were both valid when approached from different perspectives
> imho.

It's par for J-R when you criticize Apple. That is sin.

[Alan Browne]

If they don't do/want it, it's bad for others to do/want it. Tribal.

[Alan Browne]

On 2021-11-18 19:06, nospam wrote:

> In article <sn6lmo$d2o$1...@dont-email.me>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>
>>>>> because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
>>>>> replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.
>>>>
>>>> Are you really worried about replacing a piece of glass or a battery?
>>>
>>> i'm not, but most people would never attempt it.
>>
>> Most people don't change their own car battery or windscreen either.
>
> which is why some cars put the battery where there's available space

Very few models.

> instead of where it's convenient to the owner. i've seen cars with the
> battery in the wheel well. want to replace the battery? better have a
> jack and a lug wrench handy.
>
> i knew someone who had a car where getting to the oil filter required
> removing a wheel.

Again very few models. OTOH, Subaru smartly make the oil filter very
easy to access from the top on many models. So one can 'vacuum' the oil
out from the top (via the dipstick hole) and replace the filter w/o
lifting the car a mm.

>
>> They go to an independent shop who can easily replace with genuine parts.
>
> or more likely, aftermarket parts.

After market part makers are often also the suppliers to the factory
where the car was originally built... IAC, most F^3 parts are fine. Buy
from reputable sources. Do the research.

[sms]

Apple had a legitimate concern about after-market Li-Ion batteries being
used in their products. It's why their newer devices will detect
non-Apple supplied batteries.

[Alan Browne]

On 2021-11-19 01:09, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2021-11-18, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-11-18 17:42, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2021-11-17, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Starting with the phones that least need parts? Sheesh! We need
>>>> parts for the older phones first.
>>>>
>>>> Starting with M1 based computers? Sheesh - it's the older crap that
>>>> will need parts.
>>>

>>> Some dip shits will just never be happy. <-----[AAA]

>>
>> Yes, you're always unhappy when people point out glaring truths.
>
> "I know you are, but what am I?" *YAWN*

Classic JR: Start with an insult ([AAA] above) then attempt a high
ground retort when pushed back.

[nospam]

In article <9sOlJ.62857$Ql5....@fx39.iad>, Alan Browne

<bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:

>
> The only reason I can see for Apple to do later model parts first is
> because those production lines / suppliers are up and so adding part
> counts for this added venture make sense.

there are also not as many older products still in use.

[Alan Browne]

First owners of iPhones are trading them in at ever increasing intervals
now at about 3 - 3.5 years. That's an average. Some (like me) keep
them longer (I target 5 years).

And that phone doesn't go "poof" into the night. It's sold, traded or
handed down to keep on going for several more years (one hopes).

Macs go longer. I'm probably not much of an outlier at 8 years on this
iMac, but waiting for a higher end Mx iMac. Possible switch to a Mac
Mini with more powerful Mx.

And of course, as you snipped out: newer products are least likely to
fail and are also still under warranty and for some 3 year warranty.

Where parts are needed is for the 3 - 7 year old devices to give them a
new lease on life.

[nospam]

In article <zVOlJ.10167$a24....@fx13.iad>, Alan Browne

<bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:

> >>
> >> The only reason I can see for Apple to do later model parts first is
> >> because those production lines / suppliers are up and so adding part
> >> counts for this added venture make sense.
> >
> > there are also not as many older products still in use.
>
> First owners of iPhones are trading them in at ever increasing intervals
> now at about 3 - 3.5 years. That's an average. Some (like me) keep
> them longer (I target 5 years).

which means the phones that people actually have are relatively new.

people are also trading them in because they want a new phone, not
because they're broken.

> And that phone doesn't go "poof" into the night. It's sold, traded or
> handed down to keep on going for several more years (one hopes).

yep, although it quickly becomes difficult to continue using because
modern software no longer supports it.

> Macs go longer. I'm probably not much of an outlier at 8 years on this
> iMac, but waiting for a higher end Mx iMac. Possible switch to a Mac
> Mini with more powerful Mx.

8 years is very definitely an outlier.

> And of course, as you snipped out: newer products are least likely to
> fail and are also still under warranty and for some 3 year warranty.

because that's a given and does not change anything.

> Where parts are needed is for the 3 - 7 year old devices to give them a
> new lease on life.

what you're missing is there are not as many of those devices (they've
long been replaced with newer), but for those who do still have them,
they do not want to spend money fixing something that old, which can't
run the latest apps.

[sms]

On 11/18/2021 2:56 PM, gtr wrote:

> Most people don't change their own car battery or windscreen either.

> They go to an independent shop who can easily replace with genuine parts.

Almost no one changes their own windshield, but a LOT of people change
their own car battery.

In the U.S., big box stores like Walmart and Costco do a booming
business in car batteries for consumers to install themselves, as do
auto parts stores. Some Walmart stores have car repair centers, but most
do not. Costco does not replace batteries. For most cars it's a five
minute job that most people can handle themselves, even in the parking
lot of the store. You return the old battery to get a refund of the core
charge.

Interstate (a Clarios brand) even has set up a network of more that 175
of their own stores that only sells batteries
<https://www.interstatebatteries.com/all-battery-center-locations>.
There are only two companies making car batteries in the U.S., EnerSys
(Exide) and Clarios (Johnson Controls), marketing them under probably
100 different brand names.

For some cars, like some BMWs, it's not a do-it-yourself job, and for
some cars, like Toyota and Lexus hybrids, the 12 volt battery
replacement is a little more involved, but still do-able. I coached my
son through changing the battery in his 2007 Camry Hybrid, over the
phone while he was away at college (it's a little complex because of the
temperature sensor and the vent hose). I did a Google Docs doc on the
procedure for 2012-17 Camry hybrids since it's a little complicated to
find the replacement battery and to do the installation
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1usrh91rNRlyg5pef1cOn1F_IcPeIW6VBLyjbj9Zr7Co/>

The real significance of Apple's change of heart is that all those
independent repair stores will now be able to get genuine parts.
Probably the bulk of their business is doing screen repairs and battery
repairs.

[sms]

On 11/19/2021 6:29 AM, Alan Browne wrote:

<snip>

> Again very few models.  OTOH, Subaru smartly make the oil filter very
> easy to access from the top on many models.  So one can 'vacuum' the oil
> out from the top (via the dipstick hole) and replace the filter w/o
> lifting the car a mm.

While an easily accessible (from the top) oil filter is great for home
mechanics, repair shops don't really like it.

Sucking the oil out through the dipstick hole is an especially bad idea,
even though it's less trouble than removing the drain plug. You leave a
small amount of the worst old oil, full of contaminants. Sediment
collects in the bottom of the pan and is the first thing to come out the
drain. Sucking oil out through the dipstick tube wont remove as much
sediment.

[gtr]

On 2021-11-19 12:19:43 +0000, sms said:
> The real significance of Apple's change of heart is that all those
> independent repair stores will now be able to get genuine parts.

The quoted professionals all said Apple resisted being consumer friendly
because it was better for Apple to have people throw their iPhone in the
trash (increasing ewaste & Apple profits simultaneously) than to allow Apple
customers the luxury of being able to buy genuine parts or to get the iPhone
repaired locally at a reasonable price.

> Probably the bulk of their business is doing screen repairs and battery
> repairs.

What about camera replacements?

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-11-19, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:

> On 2021-11-18 20:25, gtr wrote:
>> On 2021-11-18 15:58:54 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>>>>> Starting with the phones that least need parts?  Sheesh!  We need
>>>>> parts for the older phones first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Starting with M1 based computers?  Sheesh - it's the older crap
>>>>> that will need parts.
>>>>
>>>> Some dip shits will just never be happy.
>>>
>>> Yes, you're always unhappy when people point out glaring truths.
>>
>> I thought you brought up a good point that Apple made the original
>> parts available only for the newer phones and computers which need
>> them the least.
>>
>> Also I thought Jolly Roger's point that they have to start somewhere
>> so starting with current models isn't a perfect starting point from
>> the standpoint of the consumer perhaps but it makes sense for Apple
>> to do it.
>
> The only reason I can see for Apple to do later model parts first is
> because those production lines / suppliers are up and so adding part
> counts for this added venture make sense.

"Just add more part counts" is a gross oversimplification of the effort
and expense needed to support this for older models that are already
being phased down/out and fewer and fewer people are using. It's a good
thing you aren't in charge at Apple.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-11-19, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2021-11-19 01:09, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2021-11-18, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>> On 2021-11-18 17:42, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>> On 2021-11-17, Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Starting with the phones that least need parts? Sheesh! We need
>>>>> parts for the older phones first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Starting with M1 based computers? Sheesh - it's the older crap
>>>>> that will need parts.
>>>>
>>>> Some dip shits will just never be happy. <-----[AAA]
>>>
>>> Yes, you're always unhappy when people point out glaring truths.
>>
>> "I know you are, but what am I?" *YAWN*
>
> Classic JR: Start with an insult ([AAA] above) then attempt a high
> ground retort when pushed back.

Your idiotic comment above whining that Apple didn't start repairs with
older models that relatively few people use deserves all the ridicule it
gets. Your lame comeback was just that: lame. Sorry if that twists your
panties.

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-11-19, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> On 2021-11-19 12:19:43 +0000, sms said:
>>
>> The real significance of Apple's change of heart is that all those
>> independent repair stores will now be able to get genuine parts.
>
> The quoted professionals all said Apple resisted being consumer
> friendly because it was better for Apple to have people throw their
> iPhone in the trash (increasing ewaste & Apple profits simultaneously)

Their "Apple BAD" bias requires them to ignore the fact that Apple had
the tools and knowledge needed to do those repairs, which means a
significant number did *not* end up "in the trash". And you swallowed it
hook, line, and sinker because it fits nicely in your own little bias
box.

> than to allow Apple customers the luxury of being able to buy genuine
> parts or to get the iPhone repaired locally at a reasonable price.

Doing so requires significant setup and expense that takes time to get
right. Another aspect that was purposely ignored due to inherent "Apple
BAD" bias.

[gtr]

On 2021-11-19 06:32:38 +0000, sms said:

>> Other than screen, battery, and camera, what normally breaks on an iPhone?
>
> Apple had a legitimate concern about after-market Li-Ion batteries being
> used in their products. It's why their newer devices will detect
> non-Apple supplied batteries.

With Apple's unexpected consumer friendly change of heart, it's increasingly
likely local independent repairs will source genuine Apple parts, which
should alleviate Apple's fears of aftermarket battery use in iPhones.

[gtr]

On 2021-11-19 14:11:21 +0000, Lewis said:

>> Wow. A preemptive strike against right-to-repair laws. How far will this
>> go? It's not too hard for an end-user to replace the glass or the
>> battery on a phone, but beyond that what parts are easy to replace?
>
> Did you actually read the announcement linked above? I think not.
>
> "Available first for the iPhone 12 and iPhone 13 lineups, and soon to be
> followed by Mac computers featuring M1 chips, Self Service Repair will
> be available early next year in the US and expand to additional
> countries throughout 2022."
>
> and
>
> "The new store will offer more than 200 individual parts and tools,
> enabling customers to complete the most common repairs on iPhone 12 and
> iPhone 13."

How many iPhone 12, iPhone 13, and Mac M1 models are there?
Divide 200 by that number and it's only about a dozen parts per model.

Most likely almost all are tools and not parts (battery, screen, camera).
https://www.amazon.com/Screwdriver-Tri-Wing-Phillips-Pentalobe-Screwdrivers/dp/B07VYWDXBS/

[gtr]

On 2021-11-19 06:24:05 +0000, Alan Browne said:

> The only reason I can see for Apple to do later model parts first is
> because those production lines / suppliers are up and so adding part
> counts for this added venture make sense.
>
> OTOH, these new computers are not only least likely to need a repair,
> they are still under warranty, so one would not likely want to touch it
> at all.

Both arguments about why Apple did only new devices sound reasonable to me.
Nobody in their right mind will touch defective phones while under warranty.

That means it will be years before Apple actually needs to make good on some
repairs even with this sudden unexpected consumer friendly change of heart.

But there still might be repairs from phones damaged by dropping, which
isn't covered under the warranty (camera & screen but maybe not battery).

[sms]

On 11/19/2021 10:01 AM, gtr wrote:
> On 2021-11-19 06:24:05 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>
>> The only reason I can see for Apple to do later model parts first is
>> because those production lines / suppliers are up and so adding part
>> counts for this added venture make sense.
>>
>> OTOH, these new computers are not only least likely to need a repair,
>> they are still under warranty, so one would not likely want to touch
>> it at all.
>
> Both arguments about why Apple did only new devices sound reasonable to
> me. Nobody in their right mind will touch defective phones while under
> warranty.
>
> That means it will be years before Apple actually needs to make good on
> some
> repairs even with this sudden unexpected consumer friendly change of heart.

I doubt if Apple is going to sell things like batteries and screens to
third-party repair shops at wholesale prices. By the time a third-party
repair shop pays retail for these parts, I doubt if the third-party
repair shop will be much less expensive than going to an Apple Store.

Also remember that many iPhone owners have either AppleCare+ or cell
phone damage coverage free through the credit card that they pay their
bill with, so they won't be attempting self-service repairs.

[nospam]

In article <sn8qgu$7dh$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> I doubt if Apple is going to sell things like batteries and screens to
> third-party repair shops at wholesale prices.

you'd be wrong (again). apple sells parts at wholesale *right* *now*.

> By the time a third-party
> repair shop pays retail for these parts, I doubt if the third-party
> repair shop will be much less expensive than going to an Apple Store.

they don't pay retail and their repairs are competitively priced.

[gtr]

On 2021-11-19 15:30:53 +0000, sms said:
> I doubt if Apple is going to sell things like batteries and screens to
> third-party repair shops at wholesale prices. By the time a third-party
> repair shop pays retail for these parts, I doubt if the third-party
> repair shop will be much less expensive than going to an Apple Store.

Current iPhone 12 and iPhone 13 screen repairs at Apple cost $330 to $230.
$ 329 iPhone 12 Pro Max
$ 329 iPhone 13 Pro Max
$ 279 iPhone 12
$ 279 iPhone 13
$ 279 iPhone 12 Pro
$ 279 iPhone 13 Pro
$ 229 iPhone 12 mini
$ 229 iPhone 13 mini
https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/service/screen-replacement

In this sudden unexpected consumer friendly move, Apple said they'd sell to
independent shops at the same price they charge the authorized repair shops.

"The company has not yet published a list of costs for parts, but it said
the prices for consumers would be what authorized repair shops paid."
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/changing-damaged-iphone-12-screen-may-not-cost-a-bomb-with-apple-right-to-repair-program/articleshow/87779589.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

> Also remember that many iPhone owners have either AppleCare+ or cell
> phone damage coverage free through the credit card that they pay their
> bill with, so they won't be attempting self-service repairs.

Your argument Apple's pricing will determine consumer reaction is valid.

"Currently, a replacement iPhone 12 screen costs an authorized shop about
$234 after a broken screen is traded in. At an Apple store, repairing an
out-of-warranty iPhone 12 screen costs about $280."
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/changing-damaged-iphone-12-screen-may-not-cost-a-bomb-with-apple-right-to-repair-program/articleshow/87779589.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

I'm curious why Apple might want the consumer's broken screen back?

[nospam]

In article <sn8rgs$edc$1...@dont-email.me>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> I'm curious why Apple might want the consumer's broken screen back?

recycling.

[gtr]

On 2021-11-18 18:21:42 +0000, Your Name said:
> Unfortuantely OEM parts are rarely priced reasonably - Apple's pricing
> for RAM and drives prove that point. :-( They certainly aren't the
> only ones either ... try getting a simplr lightbulb for a high end
> sportscar from the dealership and you'll need a second mortgage,
> instead of a good quality third-party lightbulb from an auto-spares
> shop for a couple of dollars.
>
> Some places will also put on their own markup to the price of the
> parts, even without any labour for the actual repair work.

In this sudden unusually consumer friendly move by Apple the initial parts
list seems to be mainly only the iPhone 12/13 battery, camera, and screen.

"The initial phase of the program will focus on the most commonly serviced
modules, such as the iPhone display, battery, and camera. "
https://www.pcmag.com/news/apple-self-service-repair-store-will-let-consumers-fix-their-own-iphones

Most of those "200" parts will be iPhone paper documents and common tools.

"It'll first focus on offering replacement parts, tools and manuals for the
iPhone 12 and 13 before expanding to Macs built with Apple's M1 chips."
https://www.pcmag.com/news/apple-self-service-repair-store-will-let-consumers-fix-their-own-iphones

[gtr]

On 2021-11-19 06:24:51 +0000, Alan Browne said:

> On 2021-11-18 20:28, gtr wrote:
>> On 2021-11-18 15:57:40 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>>> And of course most importantly: you're not the judge of all this.
>>>
>>> It just offends you for some bizarre reason.
>>
>> I don't know what about it offended some of them as Apple is 100% behind
>> this and Apple said that they did it for the consumer to get genuine parts.
>>
>> What argument do they have against that?
>
> If they don't do/want it, it's bad for others to do/want it. Tribal.

Even their argument that consumers will hurt themselves is false.

"The company also acknowledges that consumers can fix an iPhone without
hurting themselves or damaging the device, contrary to what Apple told
Congress in 2019."

https://www.pcmag.com/news/apple-self-service-repair-store-will-let-consumers-fix-their-own-iphones
https://www.vice.com/en/article/wjw3w4/apple-tells-congress-youll-hurt-yourself-if-you-try-to-fix-your-iphone

[gtr]

Don't those cars with on top oil filters still have oil pan drain plugs?
I've never done it but how hard can it be to remove a single drain plug?

It seems all Apple parts orders will automatically include a repair manual.

"Customers can buy parts through Apple's self-service repair online store
and orders will include a repair manual."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/17/apple-self-service-repair-program-will-let-you-buy-parts-for-iphone-or-mac.html

[gtr]

On 2021-11-19 15:20:44 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>>> Many things are replaceable from the glass to the battery to other
>>> components. The key things is to get those parts.
>>
>> getting parts is easy. repairing it is not.
>
> Depends on the repair. And with guides such as iFixIt (as well as the
> tools), much easier.

Apple is only focusing on three often broken iPhone components for now.

"Apple's new self-service program - just like the IRP program - is focused
only on screen, battery, and camera repairs when it comes to iPhones."
https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/19/22787245/apple-iphone-mac-self-service-program-repair-diy

>>> I've seen my son
>>> repair a half dozen iPhones with parts from "donors" with little trouble.
>>
>> he should get a job at a repair shop.
>
> A lot below his pay grade.

Almost all the "more than 200 individual parts and tools" are common things.

"While that number sounds high given that the self-service program will
launch with parts for just two models of iPhones, Kevin Purdy, a writer for
online repair guide site iFixit, found it believable. Apple, he says, could
sell various adhesives, specialty tools, individual screws, custom presses,
electrostatic discharge mats, and much more."
https://www.theverge.com/2021/11/19/22787245/apple-iphone-mac-self-service-program-repair-diy

[nospam]

In article <sn8tla$uco$1...@dont-email.me>, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> Don't those cars with on top oil filters still have oil pan drain plugs?

of course they do.

> I've never done it but how hard can it be to remove a single drain plug?

easy, unless it's overtightened.

[Rod Speed]

gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote
> sms wrote

>>> Other than screen, battery, and camera, what normally breaks on an
>>> iPhone?

>> Apple had a legitimate concern about after-market Li-Ion batteries being
>> used in their products. It's why their newer devices will detect
>> non-Apple supplied batteries.

> With Apple's unexpected consumer friendly change of heart, it's
> increasingly
> likely local independent repairs will source genuine Apple parts,

That remains to be seen. It depends on what Apple chooses to charge for
them.

> which should alleviate Apple's fears of aftermarket battery use in
> iPhones.

That remains to be seen.

[sms]

On 11/19/2021 11:24 AM, gtr wrote:
> On 2021-11-19 07:52:07 +0000, sms said:
>>> Again very few models.' OTOH, Subaru smartly make the oil filter very
>>> easy to access from the top on many models.' So one can 'vacuum' the
>>> oil out from the top (via the dipstick hole) and replace the filter
>>> w/o lifting the car a mm.
>>
>> While an easily accessible (from the top) oil filter is great for home
>> mechanics, repair shops don't really like it.
>>
>> Sucking the oil out through the dipstick hole is an especially bad
>> idea, even though it's less trouble than removing the drain plug. You
>> leave a small amount of the worst old oil, full of contaminants.
>> Sediment collects in the bottom of the pan and is the first thing to
>> come out the drain. Sucking oil out  through the dipstick tube wont
>> remove as much sediment.
>
> Don't those cars with on top oil filters still have oil pan drain plugs?
> I've never done it but how hard can it be to remove a single drain plug?

I'm sure that they have a drain plug but it may be a pain to get to so
pumping the oil out through the dipstick hole is the normal procedure
for draining the oil. We had one oil change chain in my area used to
advertise that they drained oil through the dipstick tube, but they soon
dropped that procedure when they realized the drawbacks, or at least
they don't advertise it anymore. The plus side to pumping the oil out
through the dipstick tube is that there's no danger of stripping the
drain plug threads or forgetting to use a new drain plug gasket. These
quick-change oil places aren't using trained mechanics and there are a
LOT of horror stories of damage that they've caused.

In my area, the dealers periodically mail out coupons for very low cost
oil changes. I got two coupons for $8.88 oil changes, and that includes
synthetic. Recently they sent out a coupon for a free oil change with a
food donation to a local food bank. Of course their ultimate goal is to
get your car in there and then try to sell you a bunch of other stuff
like air filter changes, new tires, engine flushes, etc..

My wife complains that I change the oil on all our cars because it takes
me about an hour and I could use that time to clean the garage. But to
drive the car to an oil change place, get the service order filled out,
and get the oil changed would be just as long if not longer. I use OEM
filters and I use the proper oil. I recall the Toyota dealer once using
whatever bulk oil they had even though it wasn't the right oil and I had
them do the oil change over again with bottle of oil. My brother-in-law
had a garage and when 5W20 first came out (on Hondas) he was buying
cases of it from the Honda dealer and the parts guy laughed and said
that the dealer's service department just used 5W30 on the vehicles that
specified 5W20 because 5W30 came in bulk.

[Michael Trew]

On 11/19/2021 0:29, Your Name wrote:
> On 2021-11-19 04:34:08 +0000, Michael Trew said:
>> On 11/18/2021 16:41, nospam wrote:
>>>
>>> because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
>>> replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.
>>
>> Replacing a valve? Do you mean to say capacitor? I'm not sure why
>> there is plumbing inside of your television, that's kind of odd.
>
> You're either showing your under-age lack of knowledge or your stupidity
> thinking you're being funny.
>
> "Valve" is simply another name for "vacuum tube". There are a few other
> names too. Old CRT TVs (colour as well as monochrome) did have them
> inside, as did old radios too.
> <http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-011.htm>
> <https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/valve-colour-tv-pye-ct203-277211311>

I have since looked it up, and "valve" is a British term for "vacuum
tube". The only short-hand term for them in the US is "tube". I don't
live in the UK. Your spelling of "colour" is also a give-away.

My great-grandfather was trained in a trade school to repair vacuum tube
electronics, and once did that for a living. I'm quite familiar with
tearing down and repairing old radios and televisions. I have a shop in
my basement with a voltage variac, isolation transformer, a tube tester,
and boxes of tubes, capacitors, ceramic resistors, etc.

I'm sure I'm younger than about anyone on text-based Usenet, but my age
is irrelevant to my experience. Pardon me for not being apt to British
terminology. Since "nospam" can't even be bothered to know that not all
2G cellular networks have been turned down (which is far more relevant
to the point of this NG), I think I should get a free pass ;)

[Jolly Roger]

On 2021-11-19, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> On 2021-11-19 06:32:38 +0000, sms said:
>
>>> Other than screen, battery, and camera, what normally breaks on an
>>> iPhone?
>>
>> Apple had a legitimate concern about after-market Li-Ion batteries
>> being used in their products. It's why their newer devices will
>> detect non-Apple supplied batteries.
>

> unexpected change of heart

There's no direct evidence there was any "change of heart" as opposed to
a slow, methodical implementation of changes needed to support self
repair.

[sms]

On 11/19/2021 4:30 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
> Since "nospam" can't even be bothered to know that not all
> 2G cellular networks have been turned down (which is far more relevant
> to the point of this NG), I think I should get a free pass ;)

I'm sure that he knows that 2G networks are still active in the U.S.
despite what he wrote previously.

[Your Name]

On 2021-11-20 00:30:58 +0000, Michael Trew said:

> On 11/19/2021 0:29, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2021-11-19 04:34:08 +0000, Michael Trew said:
>>> On 11/18/2021 16:41, nospam wrote:
>>>>
>>>> because phones are far more complex than a 1950s era television, where
>>>> replacing a valve/vacuum tube was all that was needed.
>>>
>>> Replacing a valve? Do you mean to say capacitor? I'm not sure why
>>> there is plumbing inside of your television, that's kind of odd.
>>
>> You're either showing your under-age lack of knowledge or your stupidity
>> thinking you're being funny.
>>
>> "Valve" is simply another name for "vacuum tube". There are a few other
>> names too. Old CRT TVs (colour as well as monochrome) did have them
>> inside, as did old radios too.
>> <http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-011.htm>
>> <https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/valve-colour-tv-pye-ct203-277211311>
>
> I have since looked it up, and "valve" is a British term for "vacuum
> tube". The only short-hand term for them in the US is "tube". I don't
> live in the UK. Your spelling of "colour" is also a give-away.

You mean the *correct* spelling of "colour".

> My great-grandfather was trained in a trade school to repair vacuum
> tube electronics, and once did that for a living. I'm quite familiar
> with tearing down and repairing old radios and televisions. I have a
> shop in my basement with a voltage variac, isolation transformer, a
> tube tester, and boxes of tubes, capacitors, ceramic resistors, etc.

It was invented in the UK by John Fleming in 1904 and originally called
the "Fleming valve", so technically "valve" is the correct terminology.
"Tube" is probably just another example of American's getting it wrong
again and making up their own "English" words, spelling, and meanings.
:-p

> I'm sure I'm younger than about anyone on text-based Usenet, but my age
> is irrelevant to my experience. Pardon me for not being apt to British
> terminology. Since "nospam" can't even be bothered to know that not
> all 2G cellular networks have been turned down (which is far more
> relevant to the point of this NG), I think I should get a free pass ;)

"nospam" doesn't actually know anything about anything at all, and
proves it on a near-daily basis. The fool got added to my
killfile/filter long ago.

[Lewis]

In message <ivqu3j...@mid.individual.net> Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2021-11-19, gtr <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>> On 2021-11-19 06:32:38 +0000, sms said:
>>
>>>> Other than screen, battery, and camera, what normally breaks on an
>>>> iPhone?
>>>
>>> Apple had a legitimate concern about after-market Li-Ion batteries
>>> being used in their products. It's why their newer devices will
>>> detect non-Apple supplied batteries.
>>
>> unexpected change of heart

> There's no direct evidence there was any "change of heart" as opposed to
> a slow, methodical implementation of changes needed to support self
> repair.

Unpossible! Apple was FORCED to do this by the dozens and dozens of
complainers out there!

Here's the actual truth, Apple has gotten much better at minimizing the
parts inside their devices as they have combined more and more into
larger SoCs and single piece modules. This means that the newer devices
are not only more durable and less prone to break in the first place,
but also much easier to repair. Older devices needed quite a lot of glue
to hold everything in place because there were so many things to hold in
place and so many connectors that could come loose over time without
glue. Much less of an issue now.

As the devices became easier for Apple to repair (a bonus for them, no
one likes regluing a 27" iMac screen) it also becomes a lot easier to
make the parts and tools available to people who need or want to do
these repairs themselves.

But the "Apple changed it's mind because fear of the right-to-repair
massive movement" is clickbaitier and makes those people on the fringes
feel better about their mostly idiotic screeds.

OK OK, there are probably hundreds of them, not just dozens, but more
than half of them are incapable of pulling off a successful repair of
any kind.

--
When the least they could do to you was everything, then the most
they could do to you suddenly held no terror. --Small Gods