SW update required to connect to my iPhone

[Ron]

Recently upgraded iPhone 6 to iOS 12. Today, connected phone to iMac,
got the message, "A software update is required to connect to <my
name>'s iPhone."
This is a 2011 iMac, can't run Mojave. Have OS 10.13.16 and iTunes 12.8.
Is there a way to get iTunes to see my phone, short of getting a newer
Mac with Mojave?
--
_____________________________
Ron, the humblest guy in town

[David Empson]

Ron <RonT...@null.invalid> wrote:

> Recently upgraded iPhone 6 to iOS 12. Today, connected phone to iMac,
> got the message, "A software update is required to connect to <my
> name>'s iPhone."
> This is a 2011 iMac, can't run Mojave. Have OS 10.13.16 and iTunes 12.8.
> Is there a way to get iTunes to see my phone, short of getting a newer
> Mac with Mojave?

You don't need Mojave and you don't need a newer Mac.

That message about a software update is a new feature Apple have
implemented on the Mac with iTunes 12.8 or later: they have separated
out iOS device support updates from iTunes application updates.

When you first plug in a device running iOS 12 on a Mac running macOS
10.11.4/5/6, 10.2.x or 10.13.x (which must also have iTunes 12.8
installed), you get an alert popping up which tells you that a
nondescript software update is required. It provides a button to let you
install that update immediately. Go ahead and do that.

It updates the mobile device support components, adding support for iOS
12. The updater requires the iTunes application to quit if it is
currently running, but it doesnt update iTunes to a new version.

This update does NOT appear in App Store's Updates tab. It has its own
special install mechanism.

The device support updater doesn't trigger on Mojave because Mojave
comes with the iOS 12 device support already installed. If a future
minor iOS 12.x update or iOS 13 requires updated device support, then
Mojave will also get a device support update delivered via this new
mechanism. (iOS 13 should also be supported on Sierra and High Sierra,
if Apple sticks to their historic pattern.)

Macs running Yosemite (10.10.x) or early versions of El Capitan can run
iTunes 12.8 but are not being offered the iOS 12 device support update.
They instead get a message from iTunes that the Mac needs to be updated
to OS X 10.11.4 or later to use an iOS 12 device with iTunes.

Here is Apple's support article on the new mechanism, which includes a
screen shot but doesn't go into much detail (I worked out the above
details by observation and experimentation).

https://support.apple.com/HT208831

This mechanism is not used on Windows. In that case, you just update to
iTunes 12.9 to be able to use a device running iOS 12 with iTunes.

For Mac users, iTunes 12.9 is not available for High Sierra and earlier
- it comes as part of Mojave. It apparently has some changes relating to
Apple Music.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Ron]

David Empson <dem...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> Ron <RonT...@null.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Recently upgraded iPhone 6 to iOS 12. Today, connected phone to iMac,
> > got the message, "A software update is required to connect to <my
> > name>'s iPhone."
> > This is a 2011 iMac, can't run Mojave. Have OS 10.13.16 and iTunes 12.8.
> > Is there a way to get iTunes to see my phone, short of getting a newer
> > Mac with Mojave?
>
> You don't need Mojave and you don't need a newer Mac.

Installed update, and all is well. Thanks!

[David Empson]

Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2018-10-01, Ron <RonT...@null.invalid> wrote:
> > Recently upgraded iPhone 6 to iOS 12. Today, connected phone to iMac,
> > got the message, "A software update is required to connect to <my
> > name>'s iPhone."
> > This is a 2011 iMac, can't run Mojave. Have OS 10.13.16 and iTunes 12.8.
> > Is there a way to get iTunes to see my phone, short of getting a newer
> > Mac with Mojave?
>

> Hmmm... I thought iTunes 12.8 *was* the latest. I'm running 10.13.6 with
> iTunes 12.8 and have no problems syncing any of my devices running iOS
> 12.

iTunes 12.8 is the latest for Yosemite through High Sierra.

See my earlier followup: iOS device support has been separated from
iTunes (on the Mac only) starting with iTunes 12.8, and now has its own
updater which runs independently, triggered by detecting a device
running a newer iOS version than the current support files.

Perhaps you got the iOS 12 device support some other way, such as
installing Xcode 10?

> You could just try downloading and installing it over what you have
> installed:
>
> <https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1977>

Reinstalling iTunes 12.8 won't help. I upgraded one of my VMs from
iTunes 12.7.x to 12.8 after iOS 12 was released, then plugged in an iOS
12 device and it triggered the device support update mechanism.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Lewis]

In message <1nw023g.1egfp52fd56jsN%RonT...@null.invalid> Ron <RonT...@null.invalid> wrote:
> Recently upgraded iPhone 6 to iOS 12. Today, connected phone to iMac,
> got the message, "A software update is required to connect to <my
>name>'s iPhone."
> This is a 2011 iMac, can't run Mojave. Have OS 10.13.16 and iTunes 12.8.
> Is there a way to get iTunes to see my phone, short of getting a newer
> Mac with Mojave?

You should have an update for iTunes that it offered to install.

However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
computer anyway.

--
Thanks to great leaders such as Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc, and Socratic
Method, the world is full of history.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-10-01 20:30, David Empson wrote:

> That message about a software update is a new feature Apple have
> implemented on the Mac with iTunes 12.8 or later: they have separated
> out iOS device support updates from iTunes application updates.

Say I stick with High Seirra for x years.


When Apple comes out with IOS 13 and the new iPhone XI, how will that
device support get loaded onto my machine?

-done under the hood automatically?

-iTunes advises a new version is needed and re-downloads 12.8 but with
the updated device support code?

-iTunes advises that it needs to download support for that phone and
downloads only the code mofules for that device support?

[Arlen H Holder]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 16:12:06 +1300, David Empson wrote:

> iOS device support has been separated from
> iTunes (on the Mac only) starting with iTunes 12.8, and now has its own
> updater which runs independently, triggered by detecting a device
> running a newer iOS version than the current support files.

Why even need iTunes?
Any app, particularly the iTunes abomination, should be optional.

The iTunes abomination does absolutely _nothing_ useful that can't
already be done far less restrictively in any Linux OS already.

Sans the Orwellian restrictions & punishments of the iTunes abomination.

Name one useful function that the iTunes abomination does, that isn't
already native on Linux?

Bet you can't name even one.

[nospam]

In article <pp10ql$k8q$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen H Holder

<arlenh...@no.spam.net> wrote:

>
> Why even need iTunes?
> Any app, particularly the iTunes abomination, should be optional.

it *is* optional, which you've been told countless times.

[David Empson]

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 2018-10-01 20:30, David Empson wrote:
>
> > That message about a software update is a new feature Apple have
> > implemented on the Mac with iTunes 12.8 or later: they have separated
> > out iOS device support updates from iTunes application updates.
>
> Say I stick with High Seirra for x years.
>
>
> When Apple comes out with IOS 13 and the new iPhone XI, how will that
> device support get loaded onto my machine?

The same way that it does for iOS 12.

I'm not going to repeat myself by saing exactly what I said in the
paragraph you quoted.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Ant]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <1nw023g.1egfp52fd56jsN%RonT...@null.invalid> Ron <RonT...@null.invalid> wrote:
> > Recently upgraded iPhone 6 to iOS 12. Today, connected phone to iMac,
> > got the message, "A software update is required to connect to <my
> >name>'s iPhone."
> > This is a 2011 iMac, can't run Mojave. Have OS 10.13.16 and iTunes 12.8.
> > Is there a way to get iTunes to see my phone, short of getting a newer
> > Mac with Mojave?

> You should have an update for iTunes that it offered to install.

> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
> computer anyway.

Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.
--
Quote of the Week: "I grew up in airports and on air bases. I know what
flying and airports can be. And most airports make me feel like we're
about three per cent better than ants. Especially U.S. airports. They're
zoos. All civility is gone." --Douglas Coupland
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / http://antfarm.ma.cx
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
| |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link.
\ _ /
( )

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-10-02 21:13, David Empson wrote:

>> When Apple comes out with IOS 13 and the new iPhone XI, how will that
>> device support get loaded onto my machine?
>
> The same way that it does for iOS 12.

I downloaded iTunes 12.8 from Apple's web site. I didn't see it offer
information about downloading device support files. So I assume that the
.dmg I downloaded already contained device support files for my 6s.

Hence, for those who downlaoded iTunes 12.8 after IOS 12 was released
have no idea of the mechanism with which support for new devices get
added to iTune 12.8

You have made it clear how the 2 are separate. But not how an existing
iTunes (such as 12.8) will acquire the files/data/code to support new
devices.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 03.10.18 um 04:24 schrieb Ant:

> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <1nw023g.1egfp52fd56jsN%RonT...@null.invalid> Ron <RonT...@null.invalid> wrote:
>>> Recently upgraded iPhone 6 to iOS 12. Today, connected phone to iMac,
>>> got the message, "A software update is required to connect to <my
>>> name>'s iPhone."
>>> This is a 2011 iMac, can't run Mojave. Have OS 10.13.16 and iTunes 12.8.
>>> Is there a way to get iTunes to see my phone, short of getting a newer
>>> Mac with Mojave?
>
>> You should have an update for iTunes that it offered to install.
>
>> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
>> computer anyway.
>
> Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.
>

Local Backups and a local restore of a mobile device are very old
school. Very much so.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[nospam]

In article <pp1gbu$f58$1...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> >> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
> >> computer anyway.
> >
> > Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.
> >
> Local Backups and a local restore of a mobile device are very old
> school. Very much so.

they're much faster, more secure and includes everything on the device.

[David Empson]

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 2018-10-02 21:13, David Empson wrote:
>
> >> When Apple comes out with IOS 13 and the new iPhone XI, how will that
> >> device support get loaded onto my machine?
> >
> > The same way that it does for iOS 12.
>
> I downloaded iTunes 12.8 from Apple's web site. I didn't see it offer
> information about downloading device support files. So I assume that the
> .dmg I downloaded already contained device support files for my 6s.

Had you not already installed iTunes 12.8 at some point since it was
released three months ago?

If you already had iTunes 12.8 installed, then installing it again
achieves nothing other than wasting your time because all of the files
it installs (or newer versions) are already there.

If you were still running iTunes 12.7.x (or earlier, with the special
exception of iTunes 12.6.5) then you need to install iTunes 12.8 to be
able to use devices running iOS 12 with iTunes.

The iTunes 12.8 installer predates the public release of iOS 12 so it
includes the device support files that were current back in July, which
support iOS 11 and earlier, and models released up to that point. For
example, it includes icons for all devices up to the iPhone 8 and X, but
not the iPhone XS, XS Max or XR.

The iTunes 12.8 installer also installs the new device support update
mechanism as a system level component. After that, device support can be
updated independently of the iTunes application.

When you plug in an iOS device into a Mac running El Capitan or later
(with iTunes 12.8 or later), the device support updater checks that the
device support components are new enough and if not, it displays a
message telling you an update needs to be installed. It looks like the
example here:

https://support.apple.com/HT208831

That has already been triggered by iOS 12 and it may happen again for
subquent minor or major iOS updates or as new iOS devices are
introduced, without needing to run or update the iTunes application.

You also get updated device support by installing the latest version of
Xcode, so developers may not see the device support update window,
depending on the order in which they do things.

> Hence, for those who downlaoded iTunes 12.8 after IOS 12 was released
> have no idea of the mechanism with which support for new devices get
> added to iTune 12.8

There is no need to have any idea about it: the system automatically
prompts you to install a device support update if it is needed. This
updates the system level device support. It does not update the iTunes
application. iTunes does not even need to be running.

If you panic and refuse to install that update because it looks
different to the old method, then you won't be able to use the
new/updated device with iTunes, until you reconnect the device and when
prompted again actually let the update install this time.

The same device support updater is a standard component in macOS Mojave
(as is iTunes 12.9, which is not available for older macOS versions).

> You have made it clear how the 2 are separate. But not how an existing
> iTunes (such as 12.8) will acquire the files/data/code to support new
> devices.

After iTunes 12.8 is installed, iTunes no longer has anything to do with
updating system level device support (apart from possibly launching the
updater for you if it didn't run automatically for some reason - I can't
easily test that.)

The iTunes application might still get updated for bug fixes, security
issues or minor feature changes (e.g. a future version such as 12.8.1
for El Capitan through High Sierra). As long as you are already running
iTunes 12.8 or later, those updates no longer need to install system
level device support, therefore iTunes updates via Software Update (App
Store) can be smaller.

The standalone iTunes installer for a future 12.8.1 would still need to
include the device support files, to deal with cases where you hadn't
yet installed iTunes 12.8 or later.

If iTunes itself doesn't need any further updates then version 12.8
might work with iOS 13 (on Sierra and High Sierra) and iOS 14 (on High
Sierra), using updated device support components.

On Mojave, iTunes 12.9 or later is probably being treated as a standard
component of the OS so any iTunes application updates (including new
features) will be done as part of standard OS updates. Device support
will be dealt with using the same independent update mechanism as older
systems running iTunes 12.8.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Chris]

Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 03.10.18 um 04:24 schrieb Ant:
>> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>> In message <1nw023g.1egfp52fd56jsN%RonT...@null.invalid> Ron
>>> <RonT...@null.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Recently upgraded iPhone 6 to iOS 12. Today, connected phone to iMac,
>>>> got the message, "A software update is required to connect to <my

>>>>> 's iPhone."
>>>> This is a 2011 iMac, can't run Mojave. Have OS 10.13.16 and iTunes 12.8.
>>>> Is there a way to get iTunes to see my phone, short of getting a newer
>>>> Mac with Mojave?
>>
>>> You should have an update for iTunes that it offered to install.
>>
>>> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
>>> computer anyway.
>>
>> Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.
>>
> Local Backups and a local restore of a mobile device are very old
> school. Very much so.

For the majority of users upload bandwidths are too slow for cloud backups
to be viable. The UK average is only 6mbps meaning that there are many with
very slow uploads; specifically ADSL subscribers.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 03.10.18 um 09:32 schrieb Chris:

> Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Local Backups and a local restore of a mobile device are very old
>> school. Very much so.
>
> For the majority of users upload bandwidths are too slow for cloud backups
> to be viable. The UK average is only 6mbps meaning that there are many with
> very slow uploads; specifically ADSL subscribers.

Spring 17 it was 21.7 Mbit/sec in Switzerland.
Sorry I did not consider this.

ADSL-connections are even not symetric ...

[Lewis]

In message <VfudnVdaT9_7tSnG...@earthlink.com> Ant <ANT...@zimage.com> wrote:
> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <1nw023g.1egfp52fd56jsN%RonT...@null.invalid> Ron <RonT...@null.invalid> wrote:
>> > Recently upgraded iPhone 6 to iOS 12. Today, connected phone to iMac,
>> > got the message, "A software update is required to connect to <my
>> >name>'s iPhone."
>> > This is a 2011 iMac, can't run Mojave. Have OS 10.13.16 and iTunes 12.8.
>> > Is there a way to get iTunes to see my phone, short of getting a newer
>> > Mac with Mojave?

>> You should have an update for iTunes that it offered to install.

>> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
>> computer anyway.

> Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.

And there is no reason to do that.

--
Moving into the universe
And she's drifting this way and that
Not touching the ground at all
And she's up above the yard

[Lewis]

In message <pp1rai$1ru$1...@dont-email.me> Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> Am 03.10.18 um 04:24 schrieb Ant:
>>> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>>> In message <1nw023g.1egfp52fd56jsN%RonT...@null.invalid> Ron
>>>> <RonT...@null.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> Recently upgraded iPhone 6 to iOS 12. Today, connected phone to iMac,
>>>>> got the message, "A software update is required to connect to <my
>>>>>> 's iPhone."
>>>>> This is a 2011 iMac, can't run Mojave. Have OS 10.13.16 and iTunes 12.8.
>>>>> Is there a way to get iTunes to see my phone, short of getting a newer
>>>>> Mac with Mojave?
>>>
>>>> You should have an update for iTunes that it offered to install.
>>>
>>>> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
>>>> computer anyway.
>>>
>>> Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.
>>>
>> Local Backups and a local restore of a mobile device are very old
>> school. Very much so.

> For the majority of users upload bandwidths are too slow for cloud backups
> to be viable.

Not at all.

> The UK average is only 6mbps meaning that there are many with
> very slow uploads; specifically ADSL subscribers.

And? Very little is uploaded.

My 256GB iPhone, with more than half its space used, backs up 2.6GB. My
iPad Pro backs up less than 1GB. Photos upload in their own time, and
when I restore a backup, the photos redownload. I manually download
music (the majority of my storage space). Apps are redownloaded but take
up no backup space.

The only reason to avoid iCloud backup is if your DOWNLOAD is capped and
or very slow. That is not the case for most people.

--
I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a
career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy
anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or
processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You know, as a
career, I don't want to do that.

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2018 20:28:46 -0400, nospam wrote:

>> Why even need iTunes?
>> Any app, particularly the iTunes abomination, should be optional.
>
> it *is* optional, which you've been told countless times.

Hehhehheh...

You forget so much, nospam, since it is NOT optional, and even you know
that, but you forgot it.

Remember when we asked how to do the _simplest_ of things on iOS without
iTunes, and you said it was impossible?

You don't remember?
I do.

I'll clue you in, where the point is that Apple _designed_ iOS to be brain
dead so that it couldn't do the _simpilest_ of things, without needing not
only a full-blown computer to do those simple things, but also hundreds
upon hundreds of megabytes of what is well known to be the canonical
example of bloatware that is the iTunes abomination.

The difference between you and me nospam, besides the obvious fact that you
have no formal education, is that you *forget* your own words.

HINT: You yourself said iOS can't do what is, on all other platforms, a
common simple task - without *requiring* the iTunes abomination to do it!

Do you remember your own words nospam?
Or, are you just making everything up, again?

HINT: You incessantly bluff - I don't ever bluff - I simply speak fact.

[Arlen Holder]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 09:34:28 -0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:

> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
> computer anyway.

Hehhehheh ... except that we _proved_ the iOS device, all by its itty bitty
self, is completely unable to do even the _simplest_ of tasks that _every_
other consumer OS does, easily, sans the *requirement* of iOS for the
iTunes abomination.

It's a fact: Unless you "just give up", iTunes is a *requirement* for iOS.

HINT: I don't bluff - I speak facts - hence I don't need to bluff.

[B...@onramp.net]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 12:26:04 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
<clip>

>>> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
>>> computer anyway.
>
>> Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.
>
>And there is no reason to do that.

It's my understanding that the itunes backup to computer is total and
iCloud backup isn't.

Correct?

Plus its far easier to restore the computer backup. One click.

[nospam]

In article <5rh9rdhga6d59vru9...@4ax.com>,

<B...@Onramp.net> wrote:

> >>> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
> >>> computer anyway.
> >
> >> Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.
> >
> >And there is no reason to do that.
>
> It's my understanding that the itunes backup to computer is total and
> iCloud backup isn't.
>
> Correct?

correct. icloud is almost everything.

> Plus its far easier to restore the computer backup. One click.

it's about the same ease, but a local backup is a lot faster to restore.

on the other hand, an icloud restore can happen in the background while
not being plugged into anything. get a replacement phone at an apple
store and the restore will happen while driving home...

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 03.10.18 um 18:57 schrieb Jolly Roger:

> So? I backup my iOS devices locally all the time. Plug it in for a while
> and it's done. Local restores are *way* faster than ones done over the
> internet too.
>
Differential backups or restore data is loaded up without the user
recognising it. Your comment only shows you have no clue how it works
and what it takes.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 03.10.18 um 15:48 schrieb B...@Onramp.net:

Restore from iCloud takes exactely one click as well.
Data is in the cloud anyway.

And it can be done aynwhere in the world without access to the computer.

[Lewis]

In message <5rh9rdhga6d59vru9...@4ax.com> B...@Onramp.net <B...@Onramp.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 12:26:04 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
> <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> <clip>
>>>> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
>>>> computer anyway.
>>
>>> Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.
>>
>>And there is no reason to do that.

> It's my understanding that the itunes backup to computer is total and
> iCloud backup isn't.

> Correct?

Not really, no. The iTunes backup will backup the installed apps, and
iCloud backup will re-download them, that's the biggest difference. Also,
iTunes backups are quite slow.

> Plus its far easier to restore the computer backup. One click.

It is far harder to make the iTunes backups in the first place, so
there's not really a time savings there.


--
And there were all the stars, looking remarkably like powered diamonds
spilled on black velvet, the stars that lured and ultimately called the
boldest towards them...

[B...@onramp.net]

On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 22:29:34 +0200, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

>Am 03.10.18 um 15:48 schrieb B...@Onramp.net:
>> On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 12:26:04 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
>> <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> <clip>
>>>>> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
>>>>> computer anyway.
>>>
>>>> Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.
>>>
>>> And there is no reason to do that.
>>
>> It's my understanding that the itunes backup to computer is total and
>> iCloud backup isn't.
>>
>> Correct?
>>
>> Plus its far easier to restore the computer backup. One click.
>>
>Restore from iCloud takes exactely one click as well.

I'm not familiar with that. Some time ago I was told a process that
was not something I wanted to deal with so I just use the backup to
the computer. Please explain the one click process. I have the daily
auto backup to iCloud

[nospam]

In article <pp38re$944$2...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> > It's my understanding that the itunes backup to computer is total and
> > iCloud backup isn't.
> >
> > Correct?
> >
> > Plus its far easier to restore the computer backup. One click.
> >
> Restore from iCloud takes exactely one click as well.
> Data is in the cloud anyway.

not all of it.

> And it can be done aynwhere in the world without access to the computer.

true, but restoring is rarely done 'anywhere in the world'. it's
normally done at home when the user gets a new phone.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 04.10.18 um 03:18 schrieb Jolly Roger:

> Nope. I prefer backing up locally because I have direct access to the
> backup data on my computer, where I can grab anything I want from inside
> the backup (for instance I archive all of my voicemail and other things
> with automated scripts). The backups and restores are fast because the
> data doesn't have to travel over the internet, and it works well. I
> don't give a shit that you think it's old school, and I see no reason I
> should change it. Your opinion on the matter is inconsequential to me.
> I'm sorry if that upsets you. Somehow I think you'll manage.

Certainly I will.
We are a geriatric club in this very special corner of the web. Learning
takes a little longer and is a bigger effort than 20 year ago.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-10-03 02:14, David Empson wrote:

> Had you not already installed iTunes 12.8 at some point since it was
> released three months ago?

Nop. When I tried to install IOS 12 old iTunes let me download it. When
T then tried to install it, I was told I needed new version of iTunes. I
downloaded it from Apple. installed it and then proceeded to install IOS
12 on my 6s.

I recall something about having to install twice, but relaunched iTunes
and then it worked. Perhaps that second install was those components
with the dialogue in the page below (but since I was unaware that Itunes
had changed under the hood, I just though the software I had just
installed hand,t actually installed).


> https://support.apple.com/HT208831

Is there a way to check which devices I have the required support files for?

Am curious to see if during my installation of iTunes, it pulled support
files for the Xs/Xr.

Put nother way, does this updater fetch device support files whenever
new files become available, or only when you plug in a device for which
it lacks the support files ?

Say Apple decides to release the iPhone SEx next week (running IOS 12).
Would this need a new device support file because of new hardware
despite running same OS? Or would existing device support files that
already support IOS 12 be able to handle the new phone ?

> prompts you to install a device support update if it is needed. This
> updates the system level device support. It does not update the iTunes
> application. iTunes does not even need to be running.

Or, so this dialogue is not issued by iTunes but instead some background
process that starts at random intervals ? (random from user,s point of
view)?

Where do these support files gets stored?

> The same device support updater is a standard component in macOS Mojave
> (as is iTunes 12.9, which is not available for older macOS versions).

By moving device support from iTunes to the OS, would this mean that
Apple plans on having other apps "talk" to IOS devices?

For instance, if Apple were to lauch an IOS App store app on OS-X to
replaced the app-store that used to be inside iTunes, I take it both it
and iTunes would use the same device support files, right ?

Does Photos use those support files in Mojave or does it (and iPhoto)
stick to the USB Picture Transfer Protocol ?

> The iTunes application might still get updated for bug fixes, security
> issues or minor feature changes (e.g. a future version such as 12.8.1

There are still a lot of hooks into the Apple echosystem (Apple ID,
iCloud for music, Apple Pay, Music, Movie stores and rumoured Apple
streaming services.

In the past with updated iTunes, even those of us on older OS could get
and buy those services. But if Apple ceases to update older iTunes when
it comes out with new services, then it loses on a portion fo its
intslled base. (which I am sure accountants have calculated what the
loss would be)

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-10-03 17:05, Lewis wrote:

> Not really, no. The iTunes backup will backup the installed apps, and
> iCloud backup will re-download them, that's the biggest difference. Also,
> iTunes backups are quite slow.

Not the case anymore. iTunes will backup your app DATA and your phone
setop. Upon restoring the iPhone, it will have to re-downlaod the apps
from the app store based on which apps were installed on the phone.

Apple documented the trick to copy old apps backed uip by old iTunes to
your phone because new iTunes does not restore them.

The people who brag about iCloud backup "magically" restoring everything
need to mention that not every one in the world has a mobile data plan
that allows that many gigs to be restored without forcing you to call
some bankruptcy lawyer.

When you restore from iCloud, make sure you're in wi-fi zone or have the
movbile data plan that has high enough usage limit.

[RJH]

On 03/10/2018 14:29, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 09:34:28 -0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>
>> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
>> computer anyway.
>
> Hehhehheh ... except that we _proved_ the iOS device, all by its itty bitty
> self, is completely unable to do even the _simplest_ of tasks that _every_
> other consumer OS does, easily, sans the *requirement* of iOS for the
> iTunes abomination.
>
> It's a fact: Unless you "just give up", iTunes is a *requirement* for iOS.
>

Just set up a new iPhone without touching iTunes.

> HINT: I don't bluff - I speak facts - hence I don't need to bluff.
>

Mmmm. OK.

--
Cheers, Rob

[Lewis]

In message <vthtD.206518$HK2....@fx08.iad> JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 2018-10-03 17:05, Lewis wrote:

>> Not really, no. The iTunes backup will backup the installed apps, and
>> iCloud backup will re-download them, that's the biggest difference. Also,
>> iTunes backups are quite slow.

> Not the case anymore. iTunes will backup your app DATA and your phone
> setop. Upon restoring the iPhone, it will have to re-downlaod the apps
> from the app store based on which apps were installed on the phone.

That is right, I'd forgotten this change.

> The people who brag about iCloud backup "magically" restoring everything
> need to mention that not every one in the world has a mobile data plan

No, they don't.

--
Clarke's Law: Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic
Clark's Law: Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable
from malice
Clark Slaw: Anything that has been severely damaged or destroyed by
application of Clark's Law

[Lewis]

No, it's usually done in the Apple store when the user gets a new phone.
In fact, the Apple person who gets you your new device and runs your
card/ApplePay will help you do the restore. And their connection is very
fast.

--
"Here comes sunrise. Yeah, here's your sunrise. I used to hide from the
sun, tried to live my whole life underground, why'd you have to rise and
ruin all my fun? Just turn over; close the curtains on the day."

[Lewis]

> Nope. I prefer backing up locally because I have direct access to the
> backup data on my computer, where I can grab anything I want from inside
> the backup (for instance I archive all of my voicemail and other things
> with automated scripts). The backups and restores are fast because the
> data doesn't have to travel over the internet, and it works well. I
> don't give a shit that you think it's old school, and I see no reason I
> should change it. Your opinion on the matter is inconsequential to me.
> I'm sorry if that upsets you. Somehow I think you'll manage.

This means you are backing up without encryption, which means non of
your logins or passwords are saved *at all*. So, not really a "full"
backup.

I occasionally create an unencrypted local backup on my computer (this
works over WiFi, so I don't even have to go find the device), but daily
iCloud backups are encrypted and automatic, so they are the real
backups.

--
One of the universal rules of happiness is: always be wary of any
helpful item that weighs less than its operating manual. --Jingo

[David Empson]

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Is there a way to check which devices I have the required support files for?

Plug in a device running iOS 12. If the Mac doesn't prompt you that it
needs to install an update, then you have the version of the support
files for iOS 12.

If another update is required for some future device or iOS version, it
will prompt you when you plug that device into the computer.

If you really want to check the version, look in System Information,
under Software > Frameworks for MobileDevice.

I see version 988.200.77.100.1 on a Mac which has iOS 12 device support
installed.

Another Mac has not had iOS 12 devices near it yet but does have iTunes
12.8 installed, and it shows version 988.70.1.100.34. I plugged my
iPhone X running iOS 12 into that Mac, and it prompted me to install the
device support update.

> Am curious to see if during my installation of iTunes, it pulled support
> files for the Xs/Xr.

It didn't do that as part of installing iTunes 12.8. When you
subsequently ran iTunes 12.8 and installed iOS 12 on your iPhone, that
will have triggered the device support updater to get the iOS 12 version
of the device support files.

The only model-specific support files likely to be needed are the icons
for new models, and iTunes has already been able to install those
without prompting you (e.g. I recall at least one occasion where new
iPad models were released and there was no corresponding iTunes update).

A device support update is usually required by a new iOS version, and
there have occasionally been minor iOS versions which needed an update.

> Put nother way, does this updater fetch device support files whenever
> new files become available, or only when you plug in a device for which
> it lacks the support files ?

Only when you connect a device which needs updated device support.

> Say Apple decides to release the iPhone SEx next week (running IOS 12).
> Would this need a new device support file because of new hardware
> despite running same OS?

Probably not, just new icons, which can be installed silently.

> Or would existing device support files that
> already support IOS 12 be able to handle the new phone ?

Probably (apart from the missing icon), assuming no new capabilities
were introduced with that model which required other changes to mobile
device support.

> > prompts you to install a device support update if it is needed. This
> > updates the system level device support. It does not update the iTunes
> > application. iTunes does not even need to be running.
>
> Or, so this dialogue is not issued by iTunes but instead some background
> process that starts at random intervals ? (random from user,s point of
> view)?

Not random: plug in a device which is running a newer iOS version that
is not supported, and the computer immediately prompts you to install a
required update.

That should also happen if you use iTunes Wi-Fi sync, the first time
iTunes tries to connect to a device running a newer unsupported iOS
version.

> Where do these support files gets stored?

The same place they have always been: various places in /System,
including some extensions, private frameworks and other parts.

Up to now they were usually updated by installing a new version of
iTunes or Xcode.

> > The same device support updater is a standard component in macOS Mojave
> > (as is iTunes 12.9, which is not available for older macOS versions).
>
> By moving device support from iTunes to the OS, would this mean that
> Apple plans on having other apps "talk" to IOS devices?

That is already the case: Xcode, iTunes and Configurator all use the
mobile device support files.

The new automatic updater means that for the bulk of Macs which only
have iTunes, Apple no longer needs to create an artificial iTunes
application update just to distribute mobile device support for a new
iOS version. They can decouple significant iTunes updates from new iOS
versions.

It also means that Apple can phase out needing to distribute the mobile
device support files as part of iTunes and Xcode installers and updates.

> For instance, if Apple were to lauch an IOS App store app on OS-X to
> replaced the app-store that used to be inside iTunes, I take it both it
> and iTunes would use the same device support files, right ?

In theory, yes.

> Does Photos use those support files in Mojave or does it (and iPhoto)
> stick to the USB Picture Transfer Protocol ?

I doubt anything has changed for image transfer. The existing method
works fine.

> > The iTunes application might still get updated for bug fixes, security
> > issues or minor feature changes (e.g. a future version such as 12.8.1
>
> There are still a lot of hooks into the Apple echosystem (Apple ID,
> iCloud for music, Apple Pay, Music, Movie stores and rumoured Apple
> streaming services.
>
> In the past with updated iTunes, even those of us on older OS could get
> and buy those services. But if Apple ceases to update older iTunes when
> it comes out with new services, then it loses on a portion fo its
> intslled base. (which I am sure accountants have calculated what the
> loss would be)

That is already happening. iTunes 12.9 includes new Apple Music features
and is available for Windows and Mojave but not High Sierra or earlier.

New iTunes features are now another way to encourage Mac users to
upgrade to the latest macOS.

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Jolly Roger]

So? I never claimed that passwords were included in the backups.

> I occasionally create an unencrypted local backup on my computer (this
> works over WiFi, so I don't even have to go find the device), but daily
> iCloud backups are encrypted and automatic, so they are the real
> backups.

I don’t need my passwords included in my iOS backups.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[Chris]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <031020182335295451%nos...@nospam.invalid> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <pp38re$944$2...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
>> wrote:
>>>> It's my understanding that the itunes backup to computer is total and
>>>> iCloud backup isn't.
>>>>
>>>> Correct?
>>>>
>>>> Plus its far easier to restore the computer backup. One click.
>>>>
>>> Restore from iCloud takes exactely one click as well.
>>> Data is in the cloud anyway.
>
>> not all of it.
>
>>> And it can be done aynwhere in the world without access to the computer.
>
>> true, but restoring is rarely done 'anywhere in the world'. it's
>> normally done at home when the user gets a new phone.
>
> No, it's usually done in the Apple store when the user gets a new phone.
> In fact, the Apple person who gets you your new device and runs your
> card/ApplePay will help you do the restore. And their connection is very
> fast.
>

I've bought 6 iPhones. None from an Apple store.

There is no "usually". Blanket statements are mostly wrong.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-10-04 08:42, Lewis wrote:

> This means you are backing up without encryption, which means non of
> your logins or passwords are saved *at all*. So, not really a "full"
> backup.

iTunes supports encryptyed backups.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-10-04 10:35, David Empson wrote:

> If another update is required for some future device or iOS version, it
> will prompt you when you plug that device into the computer.

OK, an update to the framework on happens on demand and not some
background process that will update it automatically as soon as one is
available.

> I see version 988.200.77.100.1 on a Mac which has iOS 12 device support
> installed.

Wouldn't the date of the update (17-Sep-2018 for me) be more useful in
terms of assuming that this Framework supports all devices and IOS
version as of that date ?

> It didn't do that as part of installing iTunes 12.8. When you
> subsequently ran iTunes 12.8 and installed iOS 12 on your iPhone, that
> will have triggered the device support updater to get the iOS 12 version
> of the device support files.

So this would have been what caused me to say "but I just installed the
new version". So yeah, I probably got that alert.

> Probably (apart from the missing icon), assuming no new capabilities
> were introduced with that model which required other changes to mobile
> device support.

Considering iTunes isn't changing for a specific OS version amymore,
would new capabilities in a new phone or IOS get used by the old iTunes?

> The same place they have always been: various places in /System,
> including some extensions, private frameworks and other parts.

Ahm, so they were always carved out of the iTunes app then?

> That is already the case: Xcode, iTunes and Configurator all use the
> mobile device support files.

I think i understand your previous message now. So, from my freshly
installed virgin 12.8 iTunes, when I tried to apply the IOS 12, iTunes
called the frameowrk as usuall and it was the framework that issued the
alert and did the downloading of the new components needed for IOS 12 ?

With multiple apps making use of this single code, it makes sense to
have it mamage those updates.

> The new automatic updater means that for the bulk of Macs which only
> have iTunes

It was your use of "automatic" that had lead me to ask whether those
updates happened behind the scenes automatically or that they were
on-demand when you first plugged in a device for which the framework
lacked support.




Thanks for your clarifications. Much clearer now.

[Lewis]

That's nice. You are not the usual buyer.

> There is no "usually". Blanket statements are mostly wrong.

Most phones are bought from Apple. Most phones bought from Apple are
bought in an Apple store.

Also, most carrier stores (the next most common place to buy an iPhone)
also have fast WiFi.

--
Why is it so damn hot in here, and why are we all in a handbasket?

[Lewis]

No one said it didn't. Try to keep up. I know reading is very difficult
for you, but TRY.

--
Love seekest only self to please, To bind another to its delight Joys in
another's loss of ease And builds a hell in Heaven's despite!

[nospam]

In article <slrnprcp0j....@jaka.local>, Lewis

<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> >>
> >>> true, but restoring is rarely done 'anywhere in the world'. it's
> >>> normally done at home when the user gets a new phone.
> >>
> >> No, it's usually done in the Apple store when the user gets a new phone.
> >> In fact, the Apple person who gets you your new device and runs your
> >> card/ApplePay will help you do the restore. And their connection is very
> >> fast.
>
> > I've bought 6 iPhones. None from an Apple store.
>
> That's nice. You are not the usual buyer.
>
> > There is no "usually". Blanket statements are mostly wrong.
>
> Most phones are bought from Apple. Most phones bought from Apple are
> bought in an Apple store.

actually, no. apple stores are not everywhere.

most are bought online (including from apple) or carrier stores. many
are bought used or gifted to someone else after getting a replacement.

> Also, most carrier stores (the next most common place to buy an iPhone)
> also have fast WiFi.

they probably have wifi, but the clerks there are usually too
incompetent to know how to set up an iphone properly.

[David Empson]

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> On 2018-10-04 10:35, David Empson wrote:
>
> > I see version 988.200.77.100.1 on a Mac which has iOS 12 device support
> > installed.
>
> Wouldn't the date of the update (17-Sep-2018 for me) be more useful in
> terms of assuming that this Framework supports all devices and IOS
> version as of that date ?

Not necessarily.

Due to differences between distributed servers there might be a grey
area during which two people installed the device support at the same
time, but one happened to end up with the old version and one with the
new version. Apple might also pull an updated version and temporarily
resume distributing an older version if a serious bug is found.

The Mobile Device framework also might not need to be updated in some
cases, but other components of the mobile device support could be
updated separately, e.g. the device icons are in
/System/Library/CoreServices/CoreTypes.bundle so a newly introduced
device might only need to update that, not the framework.

As I said, the easiest solution is to plug in a device and see if it
tells you an update is needed.

> > Probably (apart from the missing icon), assuming no new capabilities
> > were introduced with that model which required other changes to mobile
> > device support.
>
> Considering iTunes isn't changing for a specific OS version amymore,
> would new capabilities in a new phone or IOS get used by the old iTunes?

If iTunes 12.9 or later gains new features for syncing some new type of
content (for example) then that would not be done by iTunes 12.8.x on
High Sierra and earlier, mostly because the older macOS doesn't support
the feature.

We've seen that in the past, where the same iTunes version ran on
several macOS versions but some features were only available on the
newer macOS versions. Tying iTunes to the macOS version (starting with
Mojave and iTunes 12.9) means iTunes no longer needs to implement
conditional support for features only available in some macOS versions.

Other "new capabilities" of the device aren't really the concern of
iTunes. For example, it can do backups without needing to understand
what is in the files being backed up.

Something which might affect iTunes compatibility would be metadata
changes in existing synced data, e.g. new information for music. I
expect that older iTunes versions would simply ignore the new metadata.
The mobile device support framework can take care of that level of
detail.

> > The same place they have always been: various places in /System,
> > including some extensions, private frameworks and other parts.
>
> Ahm, so they were always carved out of the iTunes app then?

They were installed by the iTunes application installer, whether that
was done as a standalone install or via Software Update. They aren't
inside /Applications/iTunes.app.

> > That is already the case: Xcode, iTunes and Configurator all use the
> > mobile device support files.
>
> I think i understand your previous message now. So, from my freshly
> installed virgin 12.8 iTunes, when I tried to apply the IOS 12, iTunes
> called the frameowrk as usuall and it was the framework that issued the
> alert and did the downloading of the new components needed for IOS 12 ?

iTunes 12.8 or later has nothing to do with the mobile device support
update process when you plug in an iOS device via USB. It happens even
if iTunes is not running.

The updater launches automatically (via a LaunchAgent) when the system
detects a USB device being plugged in which matches one of the relevant
categories of Apple products. The updater checks compatibility and if an
update is required it displays the alert. If iTunes is running at this
point it would not yet have access to the device because the framework
won't connect to an incompatible iOS version.

While the device support update is being installed, iTunes is required
to quit because it is using the components that get updated. When iTunes
launches again, it now has access to the device because the updated
framework is now allowing connection.

(I can't see mention of a LaunchAgent trigger relating to iTunes Wi-Fi
sync, so there is probably a separate mechanism in iTunes to run the
updater in that case.)

--
David Empson
dem...@actrix.gen.nz

[Rod Speed]

"JF Mezei" <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote in message
news:SettD.127891$8r2....@fx34.iad...

But he does them unencrypted so he can extract
the voicemails etc.

[Lewis]

In message <041020181526187737%nos...@nospam.invalid> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <slrnprcp0j....@jaka.local>, Lewis
> <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> >>
>> >>> true, but restoring is rarely done 'anywhere in the world'. it's
>> >>> normally done at home when the user gets a new phone.
>> >>
>> >> No, it's usually done in the Apple store when the user gets a new phone.
>> >> In fact, the Apple person who gets you your new device and runs your
>> >> card/ApplePay will help you do the restore. And their connection is very
>> >> fast.
>>
>> > I've bought 6 iPhones. None from an Apple store.
>>
>> That's nice. You are not the usual buyer.
>>
>> > There is no "usually". Blanket statements are mostly wrong.
>>
>> Most phones are bought from Apple. Most phones bought from Apple are
>> bought in an Apple store.

> actually, no. apple stores are not everywhere.

I never said they were.

> most are bought online (including from apple) or carrier stores. many
> are bought used or gifted to someone else after getting a replacement.

You made this up.

>> Also, most carrier stores (the next most common place to buy an iPhone)
>> also have fast WiFi.

> they probably have wifi, but the clerks there are usually too
> incompetent to know how to set up an iphone properly.

Good thing it's dead simple that most user can do it themselves.

--
"One of the great tragedies of life is the murder of a beautiful theory
by a gang of brutal facts." - Benjamin Franklin

[Ant]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <pp1gbu$f58$1...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>

> wrote:

> > >> However, these is really no reason to connect your iOS device to a
> > >> computer anyway.
> > >
> > > Well, local backups and restores without iCloud.
> > >
> > Local Backups and a local restore of a mobile device are very old
> > school. Very much so.

> they're much faster, more secure and includes everything on the device.

Ditto.
--
Quote of the Week: "I grew up in airports and on air bases. I know what
flying and airports can be. And most airports make me feel like we're
about three per cent better than ants. Especially U.S. airports. They're
zoos. All civility is gone." --Douglas Coupland
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / http://antfarm.ma.cx
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
| |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link.
\ _ /
( )

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-10-04 19:02, David Empson wrote:

> The updater launches automatically (via a LaunchAgent) when the system
> detects a USB device being plugged in which matches one of the relevant
> categories of Apple products. The updater checks compatibility and if an
> update is required it displays the alert.

Thanks. So done are a lower level than I thought.

So plugging a phone with new IOS version for purpose of charging it
would trigger this process if I understand correctly ?


In my case, old iTunes 12.7.x signaled IOS 12 was available and allowed
me to download it.

Upon trying to install IOS 12, I was told I needed iTunes 12.8

I installed iTunes 12.8

Launched iTunes 12.8, with iPhone 11.x connected.

IOS 12 was downloaded and ready to install. When I pressed the "instal"
button (not sure is the "install" was correct word on button), then I
got an alert whihc is almost certainly the one you are refering to in
terms of downloading more components.

So it would appear iTunes has a separate mechanism to trigger this "get
device support" mechanism in the framework. (as you mentioned for the
Wi-Fi sync). IN my case, it got triggered before applying an IPSW to
the phone that it didn't have support files for.

And this is smart because iTunes ensures that it will be able to talk to
the new phone once its software has been updated.

[Chris]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <pp5l8g$dv7$1...@dont-email.me> Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>> In message <031020182335295451%nos...@nospam.invalid> nospam
>>> <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>>> In article <pp38re$944$2...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> It's my understanding that the itunes backup to computer is total and
>>>>>> iCloud backup isn't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Correct?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plus its far easier to restore the computer backup. One click.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Restore from iCloud takes exactely one click as well.
>>>>> Data is in the cloud anyway.
>>>
>>>> not all of it.
>>>
>>>>> And it can be done aynwhere in the world without access to the computer.
>>>
>>>> true, but restoring is rarely done 'anywhere in the world'. it's
>>>> normally done at home when the user gets a new phone.
>>>
>>> No, it's usually done in the Apple store when the user gets a new phone.
>>> In fact, the Apple person who gets you your new device and runs your
>>> card/ApplePay will help you do the restore. And their connection is very
>>> fast.
>
>> I've bought 6 iPhones. None from an Apple store.
>
> That's nice. You are not the usual buyer.

There's no such thing. That's my point.

>> There is no "usually". Blanket statements are mostly wrong.
>
> Most phones are bought from Apple. Most phones bought from Apple are
> bought in an Apple store.

I'd dispute that. Got evidence?

> Also, most carrier stores (the next most common place to buy an iPhone)
> also have fast WiFi.

Here, I've not heard of anyone having had their iPhone restored at a mobile
network's shop. I wouldn't trust their Wi-Fi either.

[Lewis]

$6,000 in sales per square foot, the most profitable retail space in the
world, just about double Tiffany.

What do you think they're selling?

> Here, I've not heard of anyone having had their iPhone restored at a mobile
> network's shop. I wouldn't trust their Wi-Fi either.

Since the iCloud connections are all secure, it doesn't matter if you
trust the WiFi or not.



--
Elves are wonderful. They provoke wonder. Elves are marvelous. They
cause marvels. Elves are fantastic. They create fantasies. Elves are
glamorous. They project glamour. Elves are enchanting. They weave
enchantment. Elves are terrific. They beget terror.

[Alan Browne]

On 2018-10-05 06:58, Lewis wrote:

> What do you think they're selling?

Many things. That's not proof that most phones sell via Apple stores.

I've bought mine (all both of them) from the cellco and Apple online.

Indeed the only major items I've ever bought from an Apple store were my
first iMac and my son's "off to college with you" MBP.

--
"2/3 of Donald Trump's wives were immigrants. Proof that we
need immigrants to do jobs that most Americans wouldn't do."
- unknown protester

[Lewis]

In message <iaOdnUiHza7BESrG...@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
> On 2018-10-05 06:58, Lewis wrote:

>> What do you think they're selling?

> Many things. That's not proof that most phones sell via Apple stores.

> I've bought mine (all both of them) from the cellco and Apple online.

> Indeed the only major items I've ever bought from an Apple store were my
> first iMac and my son's "off to college with you" MBP.

That's nice. They are still selling more per square foot than any retail
outlet, and about double #2. While YOU may not have bought a lot at an
Apple store it is obvious they are selling a whole lot.

Carriers sell a lot too, and probably more in aggregate since there are
many thousands of cell phone locations from hundreds of companies, but
no single vendor exceeds the ~500 Apple Stores.

[Chris]

All very nice. Doesn't support your statement. Nor is it evidence as that
figure could be made up or only for a particular store just after launch of
a new product, for all I know.

[JF Mezei]

On 2018-10-05 13:22, Lewis wrote:
> Carriers sell a lot too, and probably more in aggregate since there are
> many thousands of cell phone locations from hundreds of companies, but
> no single vendor exceeds the ~500 Apple Stores.

It may not be reflected in their financials though. When you sell an
iPhone for $200 that is all that would show in financials for "sales".
The repayment over contract term is usually part of your cellular
service and would go into the provision of cellular service and included
in ARPU numbers.

There are a lot of legal resons under the hood. Buying a TV from a big
box store with "$10 downpayment" and then monthly payments is considered
a loan and governmed by rules/laws on loans.

Selling you an iPhone for $200 as part of a 2 year cellular contract
allows carriers to avoid the loan issue because they get their money
back through higher service revenues (even if they are sepaarted, it is
still part of your continuing relationship with the cellular carrier)

In canada, and in particular Québec this makes a huge legal difference
as two totally separate laws are in effect depending on whether
something is a loan or a subsidy.

[Alan Browne]

On 2018-10-05 13:22, Lewis wrote:

> In message <iaOdnUiHza7BESrG...@giganews.com> Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:
>> On 2018-10-05 06:58, Lewis wrote:
>
>>> What do you think they're selling?
>
>> Many things. That's not proof that most phones sell via Apple stores.
>
>> I've bought mine (all both of them) from the cellco and Apple online.
>
>> Indeed the only major items I've ever bought from an Apple store were my
>> first iMac and my son's "off to college with you" MBP.
>
> That's nice. They are still selling more per square foot than any retail
> outlet, and about double #2. While YOU may not have bought a lot at an
> Apple store it is obvious they are selling a whole lot.

Regardless of their extraordinary retail sales per square foot, they
don't have stores close to everyone, and those retail sales include
other products.

>
> Carriers sell a lot too, and probably more in aggregate since there are
> many thousands of cell phone locations from hundreds of companies, but
> no single vendor exceeds the ~500 Apple Stores.

That could be, but I wouldn't bet on it.