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Re: Regaining US citizenship ?
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Roy
Nov 23, 2022, 4:06:07 PM11/23/22
to
On 11/23/2022 11:34 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
> I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister, renounced his
> US citizenship that was acquired by right of his being born in NY.
>
> That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
>
> The amendment that gave him citizenship still stands, so the facts that
> provided for him to be a citizen haven't changed, so is there a case for
> saying the process of renunciation is open to legal challenge up to
> SCOTUS ?
>
Basically you can voluntary give up US citizenship. No reason is needed
The process:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html
Court rulings:
https://fam.state.gov/fam/07fam/07fam1200apB.html
Almost all of these are about losing US citizenship by some act.
Example: Joining a foreign army
> I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister, renounced his
> US citizenship that was acquired by right of his being born in NY.
>
> That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
>
> The amendment that gave him citizenship still stands, so the facts that
> provided for him to be a citizen haven't changed, so is there a case for
> saying the process of renunciation is open to legal challenge up to
> SCOTUS ?
>
Basically you can voluntary give up US citizenship. No reason is needed
The process:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html
Court rulings:
https://fam.state.gov/fam/07fam/07fam1200apB.html
Almost all of these are about losing US citizenship by some act.
Example: Joining a foreign army
Stuart O. Bronstein
Nov 23, 2022, 7:46:26 PM11/23/22
to
was an American citizen married a man who was not a citizen, the
woman lost her citizenship. That is no longer the case.
--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com
John Levine
Nov 23, 2022, 7:47:05 PM11/23/22
to
According to Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com>:
In the US, people born in a US state who were not slaves have always
been citizens with very narrow exceptions for children of diplomats,
which he was not. No amendment needed.
As someone else said, anyone can renounce US citizenship although the
process is tedious and can be expensive if you would otherwise be
paying a lot of US tax.
--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
>I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister, renounced his
>US citizenship that was acquired by right of his being born in NY.
>
>That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
>
>The amendment that gave him citizenship still stands, ...
>US citizenship that was acquired by right of his being born in NY.
>
>That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
>
In the US, people born in a US state who were not slaves have always
been citizens with very narrow exceptions for children of diplomats,
which he was not. No amendment needed.
As someone else said, anyone can renounce US citizenship although the
process is tedious and can be expensive if you would otherwise be
paying a lot of US tax.
--
Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
micky
Nov 24, 2022, 10:44:28 AM11/24/22
to
In misc.legal.moderated, on Wed, 23 Nov 2022 11:34:31 -0800 (PST),
they'd take away someone's citizenship for iirc several sorts of things.
The ones I remember were accepting citizenship in another country, or
even if not a citizen, serving in another country's military, because
people who did that would swear allegiance to the country. Israel had a
lot of volunteers from the US and I think their system was like that but
because of American law they changed it so that a foreigner could serve
without swearing alllegiance to anything, almost just by showing up. (He
probably had to say something, like "i'll do my best" ;-) .
I used to think some Israel case was the stimulus for the law in the US
changing, but I was wrong. But now, nothing one does can cost him his
citizenship except actively renouncing it in person before an officer of
the Department of State. (You can find them in embassies around the
world.)
Now that Johnson has done that, I don't think they'll let him retract
it.
But could he marry an American and get a green card, and then after 5
years become a citizen again.
Could he move to a country in turmoil and then come here as a refugee?
Do we have any special arrangements like we used to have with Cuba?
Before 2014 or so, could he have moved to Cuba, become a Cuban citizen,
and then fled Cuba and enter the US under wet feet, dry feet, with dry
feet of course, and be eligible for citizenship?
Could he join the US military? Several years of honroable service there
is usually a help to getting citizenship.
--
I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
I am not a lawyer.
Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
>I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister, renounced his
>US citizenship that was acquired by right of his being born in NY.
>
>That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
>
>I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister, renounced his
>US citizenship that was acquired by right of his being born in NY.
>
>That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
>
>The amendment that gave him citizenship still stands, so the facts that
>provided for him to be a citizen haven't changed, so is there a case for
>saying the process of renunciation is open to legal challenge up to
>SCOTUS ?
The trend in US law has been going the other direction. It used to be
>provided for him to be a citizen haven't changed, so is there a case for
>saying the process of renunciation is open to legal challenge up to
>SCOTUS ?
they'd take away someone's citizenship for iirc several sorts of things.
The ones I remember were accepting citizenship in another country, or
even if not a citizen, serving in another country's military, because
people who did that would swear allegiance to the country. Israel had a
lot of volunteers from the US and I think their system was like that but
because of American law they changed it so that a foreigner could serve
without swearing alllegiance to anything, almost just by showing up. (He
probably had to say something, like "i'll do my best" ;-) .
I used to think some Israel case was the stimulus for the law in the US
changing, but I was wrong. But now, nothing one does can cost him his
citizenship except actively renouncing it in person before an officer of
the Department of State. (You can find them in embassies around the
world.)
Now that Johnson has done that, I don't think they'll let him retract
it.
But could he marry an American and get a green card, and then after 5
years become a citizen again.
Could he move to a country in turmoil and then come here as a refugee?
Do we have any special arrangements like we used to have with Cuba?
Before 2014 or so, could he have moved to Cuba, become a Cuban citizen,
and then fled Cuba and enter the US under wet feet, dry feet, with dry
feet of course, and be eligible for citizenship?
Could he join the US military? Several years of honroable service there
is usually a help to getting citizenship.
--
I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
I am not a lawyer.
John Levine
Nov 24, 2022, 11:34:55 PM11/24/22
to
According to micky <mis...@fmguy.com>:
and the IRS sent him a large bill, which he eventually paid under
protest. The whole episode was ridiculous since he could easily have
avoided the US tax by giving his share of the house to his non-citizen
wife first.
Most people renounce US citizenship to avoid US tax (we are nearly the
only country to tax non-resident citizens) and I'm sure there have
been court tests.
>But could he marry an American and get a green card, and then after 5
>years become a citizen again.
>
>Could he move to a country in turmoil and then come here as a refugee?
Well, maybe. INS and CBP are pretty sceptical of people who have
strange routes to citizenship.
>In misc.legal.moderated, on Wed, 23 Nov 2022 11:34:31 -0800 (PST),
>Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
>
>>I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister, renounced his
>>US citizenship that was acquired by right of his being born in NY.
>>
>>That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
Boris renounced his US citizenship after he sold his house in London
>Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
>
>>I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister, renounced his
>>US citizenship that was acquired by right of his being born in NY.
>>
>>That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
and the IRS sent him a large bill, which he eventually paid under
protest. The whole episode was ridiculous since he could easily have
avoided the US tax by giving his share of the house to his non-citizen
wife first.
Most people renounce US citizenship to avoid US tax (we are nearly the
only country to tax non-resident citizens) and I'm sure there have
been court tests.
>But could he marry an American and get a green card, and then after 5
>years become a citizen again.
>
>Could he move to a country in turmoil and then come here as a refugee?
strange routes to citizenship.
Barry Gold
Nov 24, 2022, 11:35:38 PM11/24/22
to
On 11/23/2022 11:34 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:
> I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister, renounced his
> US citizenship that was acquired by right of his being born in NY.
>
> That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
>
> I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister, renounced his
> US citizenship that was acquired by right of his being born in NY.
>
> That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
>
> The amendment that gave him citizenship still stands, so the facts that
> provided for him to be a citizen haven't changed, so is there a case for
> saying the process of renunciation is open to legal challenge up to
> SCOTUS ?
>
AFAIK, a knowing renunciation of US citizenship is valid and binding.
> provided for him to be a citizen haven't changed, so is there a case for
> saying the process of renunciation is open to legal challenge up to
> SCOTUS ?
>
That's assuming that Johnson followed the steps in
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html#:~:text=A%20person%20wishing%20to%20renounce,sign%20an%20oath%20of%20renunciation
There's also the matter of accepting a policy-making position in a
foreign government. Again, it depends on the person's intent to give up
US citizenship.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Loss-US-Nationality-Foreign-State.html
--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...
Nobody Special
Nov 24, 2022, 11:37:05 PM11/24/22
to
On 24/11/2022 15:44, micky wrote:
> The trend in US law has been going the other direction. It used to be
> they'd take away someone's citizenship for iirc several sorts of things.
>
We've got a case currently going on about a woman who was born in the UK
> The trend in US law has been going the other direction. It used to be
> they'd take away someone's citizenship for iirc several sorts of things.
>
but decided to join IS in Syria and her citizenship was revoked by our
Home Minister on the grounds that her presence in the UK is likely to
pose security risk. Her lawyers are challenging the decision on the
grounds that UK can't take away somebody's nationality and make the
person stateless. Tomorrow is the last day of the hearing from both
sides and decision will come sometimes in the future.
The lady in question lost her 3 children in the Syrian camp where she is
currently resident because of the IS collapse. She wants to come back to
the UK but she can't because she hasn't got any valid travel documents.
She was British by virtue of her birth in London.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63699503>
micky
Nov 25, 2022, 10:09:47 AM11/25/22
to
In misc.legal.moderated, on Thu, 24 Nov 2022 20:34:52 -0800 (PST), "John
Did the US have more problems than other countries with (rich) citizens
moving outside the country to avoid taxes?
Or was it more Congressmen clamoring to stop it?
Levine" <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>
>Most people renounce US citizenship to avoid US tax (we are nearly the
>only country to tax non-resident citizens) and I'm sure there have
>been court tests.
I presume we didn't always do that.
>
>
>Most people renounce US citizenship to avoid US tax (we are nearly the
>only country to tax non-resident citizens) and I'm sure there have
>been court tests.
Did the US have more problems than other countries with (rich) citizens
moving outside the country to avoid taxes?
Or was it more Congressmen clamoring to stop it?
Stuart O. Bronstein
Nov 25, 2022, 1:48:42 PM11/25/22
to
"John Levine" <jo...@taugh.com> wrote:
> According to micky <mis...@fmguy.com>:
purposes, he's responsible for US taxes even after the renunciation
for some period of time. I have a recollection that it's for ten
years, but I wasn't able to quickly find verification for that.
>>But could he marry an American and get a green card, and then
>>after 5 years become a citizen again.
>>
>>Could he move to a country in turmoil and then come here as a
>>refugee?
>
> Well, maybe. INS and CBP are pretty sceptical of people who have
> strange routes to citizenship.
>
--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com
> According to micky <mis...@fmguy.com>:
>>Jethro_uk <jeth...@hotmailbin.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister,
>>>renounced his US citizenship that was acquired by right of his
>>>being born in NY.
>>>
>>>That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
>
> Boris renounced his US citizenship after he sold his house in
> London and the IRS sent him a large bill, which he eventually paid
> under protest. The whole episode was ridiculous since he could
> easily have avoided the US tax by giving his share of the house to
> his non-citizen wife first.
>
> Most people renounce US citizenship to avoid US tax (we are nearly
> the only country to tax non-resident citizens) and I'm sure there
> have been court tests.
The law provides that if someone renounces his citizenship for tax
>>
>>>I note that Boris Johnson, the UKs comedy prime minister,
>>>renounced his US citizenship that was acquired by right of his
>>>being born in NY.
>>>
>>>That being said, have such renunciations been tested in court ?
>
> Boris renounced his US citizenship after he sold his house in
> London and the IRS sent him a large bill, which he eventually paid
> under protest. The whole episode was ridiculous since he could
> easily have avoided the US tax by giving his share of the house to
> his non-citizen wife first.
>
> Most people renounce US citizenship to avoid US tax (we are nearly
> the only country to tax non-resident citizens) and I'm sure there
> have been court tests.
purposes, he's responsible for US taxes even after the renunciation
for some period of time. I have a recollection that it's for ten
years, but I wasn't able to quickly find verification for that.
>>But could he marry an American and get a green card, and then
>>after 5 years become a citizen again.
>>
>>Could he move to a country in turmoil and then come here as a
>>refugee?
>
> Well, maybe. INS and CBP are pretty sceptical of people who have
> strange routes to citizenship.
>
--
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com
Roy
Nov 26, 2022, 2:00:48 AM11/26/22
to
On 11/25/2022 10:44 PM, Jethro_uk wrote:
> question is which wife ? Or mistress.
>
> Interesting follow up question would be around any citizenship Boris
> uncounted offspring might have. Or not. Presumably born before revocation
> they could be US citizens, and after - even in the same marriage
> (unlikely admittedly) - not. Fascinating.
>
I don't know the status of his children but US citizenship of a child
born to one US parent and an alien is subject to rules. Example: For
birth on or after November 14, 1986 outside the US, the U.S. citizen
parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of
its outlying possessions for five years prior to the person’s birth, at
least two of which were after the age of 14.
According to Wikipedia, the family last moved from the US in 1969 with
Boris age 5 or so. Unless one of the mothers was a US Citizen or the
child born in the US then it is doubtful that any of his children qualified.
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 20:34:52 -0800, John Levine wrote:
>
>> According to micky <mis...@fmguy.com>:
>>> [quoted text muted]
>
>> According to micky <mis...@fmguy.com>:
>>
>> Boris renounced his US citizenship after he sold his house in London and
>> the IRS sent him a large bill, which he eventually paid under protest.
>> The whole episode was ridiculous since he could easily have avoided the
>> US tax by giving his share of the house to his non-citizen wife first.
>
> Ah, you clearly haven't got the inside track on Boris then. First
>> Boris renounced his US citizenship after he sold his house in London and
>> the IRS sent him a large bill, which he eventually paid under protest.
>> The whole episode was ridiculous since he could easily have avoided the
>> US tax by giving his share of the house to his non-citizen wife first.
>
> question is which wife ? Or mistress.
>
> Interesting follow up question would be around any citizenship Boris
> uncounted offspring might have. Or not. Presumably born before revocation
> they could be US citizens, and after - even in the same marriage
> (unlikely admittedly) - not. Fascinating.
>
I don't know the status of his children but US citizenship of a child
born to one US parent and an alien is subject to rules. Example: For
birth on or after November 14, 1986 outside the US, the U.S. citizen
parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of
its outlying possessions for five years prior to the person’s birth, at
least two of which were after the age of 14.
According to Wikipedia, the family last moved from the US in 1969 with
Boris age 5 or so. Unless one of the mothers was a US Citizen or the
child born in the US then it is doubtful that any of his children qualified.
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