Group legal services?
Erin
services for its employees. We are expecting our first child this
year and would like to get things in order - wills, health care
directives, etc. However, I am a little skeptical about this program,
as it seems we are paying very little for the services ($17/month).
Are these programs built on the premise that many people will pay for
services they never use? Do attorneys benefit by participating in the
program - that is, do they get paid by MetLife at some negotiated rate
for the time they spend with us, or do we pay additional fees for the
services they provide? Does anyone out there participate in programs
like these (as provider or recipient) who would comment on the pros
and cons?
Erin
Stan Brown
Erin <ejm...@usa.net> wrote in misc.legal.moderated:
>My husband's company is participating in a new offering of group legal
>services for its employees. We are expecting our first child this
>year and would like to get things in order - wills, health care
>directives, etc.
For "health care directives", by which I assume you mean something
like a living will or durable power of attorney to make medical
decisions, you may not need a lawyer. Your doctor's office or a
local hospital probably has a free form you can fill out that will
qualify legally.
If you're going to a lawyer anyway you may want to have her quickly
scan over the filled-in form and make sure it's legal and adequate.
It's often most efficient (sc. cheapest) to do routine stuff on your
own and have a lawyer check it over, rather than have the lawyer
draft it from scratch.
>However, I am a little skeptical about this program,
>as it seems we are paying very little for the services ($17/month).
>Are these programs built on the premise that many people will pay for
>services they never use?
Yes, of course. It's the same principle as fire insurance.
> Do attorneys benefit by participating in the
>program - that is, do they get paid by MetLife at some negotiated rate
>for the time they spend with us, or do we pay additional fees for the
>services they provide?
The payments between MetLife and the attorney don't really matter to
you. If you're interested, ask the company's personnel department
(or the attorney's office); but really it's not your concern.
The second part of your question _is_ your concern, and if you
hadn't raised it I would have. Just at a guess $17 a month probably
pays for the right to get advice from a lawyer on a specified number
of occasions, but it may or may not cover getting work done. Really,
though, it's no good asking us here. That should be disclosed in the
plan document, which your husband should have been given a copy of.
If it's not disclosed, again the personnel department should be
asked, and you need to get an answer _in_writing_ so that you aren't
later surprised with a huge bill.
--
I am not a lawyer; this is not legal advice. When you read anything
legal on the net, always verify it on your own, in light of your
particular circumstances. You may also need to consult a lawyer.
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Michael Jacobs
news:<5f2k2vkel3d1ai22d...@4ax.com>...
These programs can be fine for some people, but look carefully at the
actual terms of the offer, as there is no set format, and you need to
analyze closely what it is you will be getting for your money, and
what extra charges there might be for particular types of services (or
what types of services are not covered at all).
The services most people are likely to need at some time in their
lives fall into IMO 4 categories, 3 of which involve litigation, and 1
of which is a variety of "transactional" or "business" law: (1) civil
defense, (2) civil plaintiffs, (3) criminal defense, and (4) legal
help with transactions such as wills, real estate deals, forming a
business, etc.
As to (1), if you have liability insurance, you already have one kind
of "prepaid legal services" -- your liablity insurer will hire a
lawyer to defend you, at their cost, if you are sued. They get to
pick the lawyer, but that shouldn't be a problem, since they are also
the ones who will pay if you lose, so they have every incentive to
defend you well.
As to (2), almost all personal injury plaintiff lawyers in USA work on
a "contingent fee", meaning they don't get paid unless and until they
win you some money in an insurance claim or lawsuit against the one
who hurt you. There is no need to "pre-pay" to be able to get a
top-notch plaintiff's lawyer. After the injury occurs, you will have
plenty of time to get advice and choose a lawyer you can work with
well, so there's no need to do that in advance either. And the
contingent fee means your lawyer will be just as eager to get a good
result as you are, since the more you win, the more he wins.
As to (3), on the rare chance you might need a criminal lawyer, that
_is_ the kind of situation where you might want to have someone lined
up in advance. But do you really want to be paying monthly, for
perhaps years, in hopes you never need one, instead of just finding
someone you can trust, and having him lined up, at no cost, "in case"
(and then paying him a one-time fee when he actually does represent
you)? Many of the lawyers who do civil plaintiff's work (suing for
damages) also do criminal defense work. Ask your friends and
colleagues who have been injured in an accident (or, if it's not a
breach of etiquette, whom you know have had to defend against criminal
charges), whether they would recommend the atty they worked with. Or
ask attorneys you know socially already; mightn't there be some in
your church, your PTA, your motorcycle club, whatever? If they don't
do that kind of work, they will still probably be familiar with the
ones who do and can recommend someone for you to build a lawyer-client
relationship with. Once you find someone whose work is competent and
whose advice you trust and whom you develop a good rapport with, keep
his or her card in your pocket. And call him when you need him.
There's not much more to it than that.
As to (4), this is probably the area where most foax actually use
these pre-paid plans, and it sounds like that's what you want to do
too. But think carefully about how much it will really cost you, and
what you get in return. If you pay just $17 a month for one year,
that's $204.00; there may be plenty of competent transactional attys
in your area willing to work with you to plan a will, and set up
advance health care directives, etc., for that amount. And then you
still have an atty-client relationship but don't have to keep paying
each month; just call them when you need them and pay "a la carte".
It's your call. Both systems can work, depending on the economics
involved, and also upon your willingness to trust your own choices
(versus letting someone else, an insurer, make them for you) and your
ability to "get on the phone" and just talk to people until you find
someone you like. Good luck,
--
This posting is for discussion purposes, not professional advice.
Anything you post on this Newsgroup is public information.
I am not your lawyer, and you are not my client in any specific legal
matter.
For confidential professional advice, consult a lawyer in a private
communication.
Mike Jacobs
LAW OFFICE OF W. MICHAEL JACOBS
10440 Little Patuxent Pkwy #300
Columbia, MD 21044
(tel) 410-740-5685 (fax) 410-740-4300
Stan Brown
misc.legal.moderated:
>The services most people are likely to need at some time in their
>lives fall into IMO 4 categories, 3 of which involve litigation, and 1
>of which is a variety of "transactional" or "business" law: (1) civil
>defense, (2) civil plaintiffs, (3) criminal defense, and (4) legal
>help with transactions such as wills, real estate deals, forming a
>business, etc.
I don't think divorce fits very neatly into your categories above.
With any luck it's category 4, but all too often it does involve
litigation.
>As to (1), if you have liability insurance, you already have one kind
>of "prepaid legal services" -- your liablity insurer will hire a
>lawyer to defend you, at their cost, if you are sued.
That's fine for liability issues, but people get sued for other
reasons too: disputes over rent or security deposits, warranty
disputes (whether or not lemon laws are available), disputes over
wills, defamation, disputes over debts and other contracts, disputes
over noise or eyesores, and so forth.
>As to (2), almost all personal injury plaintiff lawyers in USA work on
>a "contingent fee", meaning they don't get paid unless and until they
>win you some money in an insurance claim or lawsuit against the one
>who hurt you.
Sure, but there are many other type of civil suits (your category 2)
besides personal injury, and most are _not_ typically done on a
contingent arrangement but on hourly billing. In addition to my list
above there's workers comp, for instance. I _believe_ it is done
hourly since awards are typically not large.
To the extent that you advised looking carefully at the terms and
covered services before signing up for a plan, I agree with you. But
IMHO you went a little too far in ruling out uses for the plan.
Michael Jacobs
news:<0odr2vkhjdvuth0cp...@4ax.com> (after quoting me)...
> Michael Jacobs <mjaco...@comcast.net> wrote in
> misc.legal.moderated:
> >The services most people are likely to need at some time in their
> >lives fall into IMO 4 categories, 3 of which involve litigation, and 1
> >of which is a variety of "transactional" or "business" law: (1) civil
> >defense, (2) civil plaintiffs, (3) criminal defense, and (4) legal
> >help with transactions such as wills, real estate deals, forming a
> >business, etc.
>
> I don't think divorce fits very neatly into your categories above.
> With any luck it's category 4, but all too often it does involve
> litigation.
Well, even if you can work out most of the details amicably, I'm not
aware of any state where you can get a divorce without having to
actually file formal pleadings with a court -- i.e. litigation. And
one problem with divorce cases and prepaid plans is the conflict issue
-- the plan lawyer will have represented both husband and wife in
previous matters, and may be precluded from representing either of
them in a divorce. I'm not saying it can't be done in some cases --
just that these are issues to consider.
> >As to (1), if you have liability insurance, you already have one kind
> >of "prepaid legal services" -- your liablity insurer will hire a
> >lawyer to defend you, at their cost, if you are sued.
>
> That's fine for liability issues, but people get sued for other
> reasons too: disputes over rent or security deposits, warranty
> disputes (whether or not lemon laws are available), disputes over
> wills, defamation, disputes over debts and other contracts, disputes
> over noise or eyesores, and so forth.
True. It may be quite comforting to know that these miscellaneous
matters can be handled by an atty on retainer thru the plan, and for
those foax to whom that is so, the plan may be a good idea --
assuming, of course, that these types of services are covered by the
monthly plan premium, and that the predicted frequency of needing such
services makes the monthly fee worth it.
If one sees the plan like insurance, which in a way it is, the main
thing IMO people need to be aware of is that the most likely "big
ticket" items -- like being sued for injuries, or being injured
oneself -- are most likely not included (and don't need to be
included); or, like divorce, may be practically precluded due to
conflicts of interest. And if someone is in business and expects
they may have serious contract disputes from time to time, IMO they
will be better off with an actual business lawyer on retainer; but
depending on its terms, a prepaid plan _could_ provide equivalent
service, at least for the small business. It really depends on
what's in the plan contract. The plans most likely to be useful IMO
are those which focus on the kinds of things a typical, middle class,
working employee of the company offering the plan would need. If the
_employer_ put some thought into making a good match, great. But
maybe they didn't put that much thought into the choice. The
employee at least needs to have a heads-up so that he should inquire
into which it is.
> >As to (2), almost all personal injury plaintiff lawyers in USA work on
> >a "contingent fee", meaning they don't get paid unless and until they
> >win you some money in an insurance claim or lawsuit against the one
> >who hurt you.
>
> Sure, but there are many other type of civil suits (your category 2)
> besides personal injury, and most are _not_ typically done on a
> contingent arrangement but on hourly billing. In addition to my list
> above there's workers comp, for instance. I _believe_ it is done
> hourly since awards are typically not large.
Victim-side worker's comp, at least in MD, and AFAIK in most USA
states, is a subset of personal injury plaintiff work. The fees, like
the compensation to the injured employee, are either set by statute or
by a commission or panel of decisionmakers who are public officers,
and (along with the rest of the award) is paid by the employer (and
its insurer) when the injured employee wins.
The employer, of course, has WC insurance to cover him for this duty
of indemnification, and also to pay his atty.
> To the extent that you advised looking carefully at the terms and
> covered services before signing up for a plan, I agree with you. But
> IMHO you went a little too far in ruling out uses for the plan.
You're right that there may be uses for such a plan I haven't thought
of. All I'm saying is that the employee who is considering signing up
for such a plan should look carefully at what is covered by the plan
and what isn't, what is included in the monthly fee and what is an
extra charge, and compare that to what his or her anticipated needs
are and then decide whether it will be worthwhile to do this.
One of the big benefits some foax might find in a prepaid plan is
that they do _not_ have to go out and find their own lawyers in a
variety of specialties when the need arises, negotiate fees with them,
worry about whether they picked a good one, worry about whether
they're getting ripped off, etc. Sort of like the "no-haggle" car
dealerships that are also doing a booming business these days. Or
like travelers going to McD's instead of a local greasy spoon where
you aren't sure what you'll find; the consistency in quality and
pricing is comforting, even if it may be (frankly) a mediocre quality.
But for those who actually like the give and take, and participating
more actively in their own legal affairs, they may be able to do
better, and for less money, on their own.
As in all else in life, YMMV. Cheers,