Rights of mentally ill vs. neighbors
sm...@solongspammers.com
voices in my head harassing me. The episodes in which I talk or yell
are infrequent. Sometimes neighbors hear me, and over the years a few
have complained about the noise. I have never been evicted or
threatened with eviction.
However, I am now moving to a different part of the country, into a
house, and I don't know what the neighbors will be like. I wonder
what legal rights I, as a mentally ill person, would have if a
neighbor heard my episodes and decided to try to get me out of my
home.
What could they do?
What legal rights and protections would I have?
Barry Gold
[OP has a psychosis which causes him to -- infrequently -- yell at voices
in his head. There have been a few complaints from neighbors about this,
but no follow-up.]
>However, I am now moving to a different part of the country, into a
>house, and I don't know what the neighbors will be like. I wonder
>what legal rights I, as a mentally ill person, would have if a
>neighbor heard my episodes and decided to try to get me out of my
>home.
>
>What could they do?
By "moving...into a house," do you mean
a) a single-family house, which you own,
b) a single-family house, which you rent, or
c) a group home of some sort?
If you buy in a house (or a friend or family member does so for you),
the neighbors can complain to the police. The cops will come out and
tell you to quiet down. If you are sane again when they show up, you
just promise to do so, thank them politely, and they go away. If you
are still in a psychotic episode, I can't predict what will happen.
In the worst case you might frighten them enough that they would kill
you. Or if they recognize that you are psychotic, they *might* haul
you off to the county mental hospital. This could be unpleasant, but
once you are clearly stable again they will release you. (I know
somebody who stopped taking her meds and ended up at LA County General.
She considered the experience an incentive to take her meds.) And
once you show them documentation that you have a rare episodic problem,
they will just send you home as soon as you calm down and start
talking rationally. Keeping you there costs them money and they are
*always* short of money, staff, beds, etc.
It is _possible_ that a neighbor could sue for "abatement of private
nuisance" (the noise), but if it's only occasional it would hardly be
worth their while. Since you have a defined mental illness, it is
unlikely that a court will issue an injunction -- it would be pretty
much unenforceable. Money damages might be possible -- the difference
in the value of their home with and without a neighbor who yells and
screams at unpredictable but rare times. I don't think they would
amount to much, and I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
If you rent a house, the neighbors could call the cops, as above.
They can also complain to your landlord. The landlord *could* serve
you with a 3-day notice to "correct" your violation of the lease
terms. Then you would need to go to court and convince the judge that
your mental illness makes this impossible -- and that allowing for an
occasional noise episode is a "reasonable accomodation" under the ADA(*).
For that matter, you might be able to raise this issue if you own a
house and a neighbor sues over the noise. *But* if it ever gets that
far (unlikely), you should have a lawyer make that argument for you --
don't try to go it alone. If you want to know why, read the threads
by "hilary" in this group. She has been trying to sue over what she
feels is unfair treatment and lack of reasonable accomodation, and
simply doesn't know enough to know she is out of her depth. (Or maybe
she does now, but she didn't when she started posting a month or so
ago.)
One other, purely practical matter: in a single-family house, you may
find that it simply isn't an issue. Where I live, each house must be
set back at least 8 feet from the property line. This means that you
are separated from your neighbors by:
1. A wall, consisting of a 1/2" of plaster or wallboard, 2" of
airspace, and 1/2" or more of external plaster ("stucco"), or wood
or aluminum siding.
2. 16 _or more_ feet of air
3. Another wall of similar construction.
Frankly, you have to yell pretty damn loud to be a problem to your
neighbors in single-family residences. Suggestion: if your house does
not already have air-conditioning, install it at least in the room you
sleep in. You can get stand-alone A/C units with a duct that you lead
outside, and be comfortable in most weather. Sleeping with the
windows open might not be a good idea if you are likely to start
screaming at voices in your head at 3AM.
Now, if you are going into a group home of some sort, you might have
problems with other tenants in the home. But such a home would be
expected to be used to handling problems like this, and again it
_should_ not be an issue. Again, if they try to evict you over this,
you can argue that it is an ADA issue.
One thing you can do in _any_ rental situation where you might be
targeted over one problem: make yourself a model tenant in all other
ways. Always pay your rent on time. Report problems promptly before
they become more serious, but don't bother the landlord over minor
things. (e.g., a wet spot in the ceiling should be reported
immediately. "The heater is too loud when it cycles on and off, and
has been that way since I moved in" isn't.)
This is for discussion purposes only, and is not legal advice. I'm
not a lawyer. If you want legal advice, hire a lawyer.
--
Barry Gold, webmaster:
Alarums & Excursions, Xenofilkia: http://places.to/xeno
Conchord: http://www.conchord.org
Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society, Inc.: http://www.lasfsinc.org
Dick Adams
> My psychosis occasionally causes me to talk and even yell at the
> voices in my head harassing me. The episodes in which I talk or yell
> are infrequent. Sometimes neighbors hear me, and over the years a few
> have complained about the noise. I have never been evicted or
> threatened with eviction.
I empathize with your situation. There are memories in my head
of my first wife and her mother AND they often cause me to shout
and curse. Since I live in a detached home, my childbride and
our children are the only ones who hear my rages. They do not
complain, but my childbride often mocks me for retaining these
memories. My solution is to block these memories by recalling
the love and the passion of those years.
Monsters of the id only exist because we don't tell them to get lost.
This is NOT a legal opinion. Just a common sense approach to
dealing with the wrongs of the past.
Dick - I never was an Attorney
Cy Pres
>However, I am now moving to a different part of the country, into a
>house, and I don't know what the neighbors will be like. I wonder
>what legal rights I, as a mentally ill person, would have if a
>neighbor heard my episodes and decided to try to get me out of my
>home.
>What could they do?
>What legal rights and protections would I have?
This would partly depend on what you mean by "house." Is this a house
with other people in it? Would you be renting, or would you own it?
If you own your own house, there's very little they can do to get you
out of it.
If you're renting, it still isn't their decision. Whoever you're
renting the house from would be who you'd have to deal with. You can
generally not have your lease terminated because you have a
disability. I'm not sure about refusing to renew a lease, claiming it
to be for no reason.
If you know about this potential problem in advance, it might be worth
talkign to any local disabled advocacy organization, or specifically
mental health advocacy organization, to find out about the local laws
so that you know in advance what you're moving into.
While it also might be nice to be able to be up front with a potential
landlord, there are pretty obvious reasons the stigma of mental
illness might invite someone not to sign a lease with you in the first
place. While illegal, that could be difficult to prosecute, and in
the meantime, you wouldn't have a place to move into.
You really need to know two sets of laws. The federal laws against
housing discrimination are the same across the country (but whether
enforced in federal or state courts may vary somewhat). In addition,
some states have particularly strong (or weak) laws against housing
discrimination.
David Martel
You are psychotic. A manifestation of your illness is occasional bouts of
yelling at the "voices in your head". You ask for advice.
This is interesting and timely here. You seem to ask whether your
neighbors have diminished rights due to your illness. I doubt this. I hope
that others will respond so you may get other viewpoints.
Unless your neighbors have specifically given up their rights you will
not be allowed to disturb the peace. If your illness compels you to be noisy
and there are complaints, the police will arrest you. A defense lawyer will
be able to argue an "insanity" not guilty plea. I think that defense will
work but still, you'll have spent a night in jail.
If you have family or a friend to help it might be better to call an
ambulance rather than the cops, and spend the night in the ER or somewhere
other than jail. I do not think that the police will do this. They are not
competent to decide whether you are just noisy or really crazy.
Of course you may just wish to live away from other people and their
complaints. I'd think that apartments, condos or even suburbs might be
problematic.
Good luck,
Dave M.
slide
[shouts at imaginary people. Moving to new locale. Concerned about
neighbors]
>
> What could they do?
>
> What legal rights and protections would I have?
The question is if your behavior would rise to the level of nuisance as
defined in local law or custom. You'll surely get off to the wrong foot
in your new location if you just run around screaming at things nobody
else can see. Your new neighbors would reasonably be concerned about
their own safety as well at their children's.
Probably the best tactic would be divulging your situation upon arrival.
Mention to your neighbors your condition and warn them that you may make
some noise due to circumstances not entirely under your control. This
will forestall at least some alarm. Also inform your local police precinct.
A great deal depends on how harmful you are to the neighbors. If your
behavior only amounts to occasional shouts, I doubt you'll be in any hot
water especially if you explain yourself ahead of time. If your behavior
includes aggressions, then that's another issue but I'm taking you at
your word that you are sometimes noise only.
MillerT
wrote:
> sm...@solongspammers.com wrote:
>
> [shouts at imaginary people. Moving to new locale. Concerned about
> neighbors]
>
>>
>> What could they do?
>>
>> What legal rights and protections would I have?
<snip>
>
> Probably the best tactic would be divulging your situation upon arrival.
> Mention to your neighbors your condition and warn them that you may make
> some noise due to circumstances not entirely under your control. This
> will forestall at least some alarm. Also inform your local police precinct.
This may not be such wise advice, due to the stigma mental illness still
carries. Few people are well enough informed to understand the OP doesn't
present a danger to them or their children, which could result in widespread
hostility, punitive behavior, difficulty forming congenial relationships
with neighbors and preemptive attempts to have him evicted (if renting), or
attempts to make him so uncomfortable (if buying) that he chooses to sell
and leave the neighborhood.
When I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and had to take a brief
leave-of-absence from my job, the Human Resources Department circulated
articles about office violence and workplace homicide to the Department
Managers I worked with (despite the fact that I had worked for the company
for 9 years, had received a number of promotions and recognition for
innovation, got along well with others, and never engaged in inappropriate
behavior). I was essentially blackballed, and lost my job shortly after
returning from leave.
Maybe it would be wiser for the OP to contact a legal aid society (if one
exists in his new area) before problems arise. He may also consider working
with a mental health advocacy group so he has a support network, if needed.
Imo, it would be a good idea to get to know the neighbors first, learn whom
he can trust, and confide only in those individuals. That way, if problems
do arise, he'll have some allies who can intervene with the other neighbors.
<snip>
Ian Michael Gumby
> sm...@solongspammers.com wrote:
>
> [shouts at imaginary people. Moving to new locale. Concerned about
> neighbors]
> Probably the best tactic would be divulging your situation upon arrival.
> Mention to your neighbors your condition and warn them that you may make
> some noise due to circumstances not entirely under your control. This
> will forestall at least some alarm. Also inform your local police precinct.
>
Actually no.
You are under no obligation to divulge anything.
The problem with this question is that the OP doesn't describe the
type of home/house/condo/etc that they are moving to.
If its a single family home that is not part of an HOA, the OP doesn't
have to report anything.
If the OP creates a disturbance, obviously the OP's new neighbors are
within their rights to call the police and register the complaint and
the police will investigate. As long as the OP is *not* a threat to
neighbors or to himself, then outside of a noise complaint, there
isn't much the neighbors could do.
With respect to the FHA, the OP could purchase the house thus FHA
isn't being violated.
If the OP becomes agitated and violent or threatens violence then its
possible that he could be taken in for an observation/psych hold.
Pending the results he'd be in a psych ward.
I would suggest that the OP contact his physician and see what he/she
has to say and to make sure that any documentation regarding the OP's
mental illness is easily accessible in case the police are called.
If the OP is moving in to a condo/HOA, then if a noise complaint is
raised, the OP needs to talk with the HOA BoD and their lawyer,
alerting them to his medical condition. If they attempt to fine him
for his outbursts, then it could become a HUD issue once the OP
notifies the HOA BoD of his condition.
Definitely the OP should talk to his doctor(s) and get their advice.
Assuming that OP is seeing a physician and is taking medication.
slide
neighbors may be put off by living next to a mentally ill person]
>
> Maybe it would be wiser for the OP to contact a legal aid society (if one
> exists in his new area) before problems arise. He may also consider working
> with a mental health advocacy group so he has a support network, if needed.
>
There is no legal right to be a nuisance. If he is one, he can only hope
to enlist the sympathy of those he'd be a nuisance to. Frex, barking
dogs are by far the most nuisance causing element in my city. I would
suppose that neighbors may be less inclined to take official action
against a barking dog if the owner had a justifiable reason for the
barking. One reason might be she's an old crippled up lady who is in
great fear except for believing the noisy dog is scaring away attackers.
So the neighbors may tolerate the barking if they feel their forbearance
is providing a safe feeling for the pathetic owner.
> Imo, it would be a good idea to get to know the neighbors first, learn whom
> he can trust, and confide only in those individuals. That way, if problems
> do arise, he'll have some allies who can intervene with the other neighbors.
>
Well, I said discuss it with the neighbors. That's getting to know them
but what if the OP had one of his episodes while getting to know a
neighbor? Wouldn't lack of disclosure ruin any chance he'd have of
establishing good relationships? I think so.
You are right. Folks are scared of mentally ill persons especially
demonstrative ones. You can see it as unjustified but I don't and
neither would they. Just check out the headlines.
slide
> On Apr 22, 9:57 am, slide <dryadsda...@xxyahxxoo.com> wrote:
>> sm...@solongspammers.com wrote:
>>
>> [shouts at imaginary people. Moving to new locale. Concerned about
>> neighbors]
>
>> Probably the best tactic would be divulging your situation upon arrival.
>> Mention to your neighbors your condition and warn them that you may make
>> some noise due to circumstances not entirely under your control. This
>> will forestall at least some alarm. Also inform your local police precinct.
>>
>
> Actually no.
> You are under no obligation to divulge anything.
Point out to me where the word obligation or its synonym appears
anywhere in my reply to the OP.
> The problem with this question is that the OP doesn't describe the
> type of home/house/condo/etc that they are moving to.
An irrelevancy. The OP is concerned about being misunderstood by
neighbors. It isn't relevant if this is a condo or single family
dwelling or a termite mound. There are neighbors who may think he's
dangerous and take action due to his acting out fantasies.
>
> If its a single family home that is not part of an HOA, the OP doesn't
> have to report anything.
> If the OP creates a disturbance, obviously the OP's new neighbors are
> within their rights to call the police and register the complaint and
> the police will investigate. As long as the OP is *not* a threat to
> neighbors or to himself, then outside of a noise complaint, there
> isn't much the neighbors could do.
I never said the neighbors lacked a 'right' to call the police. Only
that it was this which he wished to avoid. Since this isn't a behavioral
group, I didn't offer any such advice but only legal.
>
> With respect to the FHA, the OP could purchase the house thus FHA
> isn't being violated.
Why are you bringing in the FHA? Why not also bring in the UN or the
Foreign Relations Council?
>
> If the OP becomes agitated and violent or threatens violence then its
> possible that he could be taken in for an observation/psych hold.
> Pending the results he'd be in a psych ward.
Right - that's why he queried the group - to avoid that. Did you read
his OP?
MillerT
wrote:
> MillerT wrote:
>
> neighbors may be put off by living next to a mentally ill person]
>>
>> Maybe it would be wiser for the OP to contact a legal aid society (if one
>> exists in his new area) before problems arise. He may also consider working
>> with a mental health advocacy group so he has a support network, if needed.
>>
>
> There is no legal right to be a nuisance.
There is no legal obligation to disclose personal medical information to the
general public, either.
I think it's unreasonable for you to infer, based on the OP's report of
occasional outbursts, that his behavior would be frequent enough or
disruptive enough to qualify as a public nuisance.
> If he is one, he can only hope
> to enlist the sympathy of those he'd be a nuisance to.
Have you ever heard the saying, "don't borrow trouble"? He hasn't indicated
the neighbors in his current living situation consider him a nuisance, so
there's no reason to take preemptive action and declare that he "might"
become one. Disclosing his mental illness to strangers almost certainly
assures some of them will believe he's dangerous, even in the absence of
supporting evidence.
<snip>
>
> You are right. Folks are scared of mentally ill persons especially
> demonstrative ones. You can see it as unjustified but I don't and
> neither would they.
I do see it as unjustified because the OP already stated he has no history
of violence. There's no reason to anticipate he'll become violent in the
future, either, simply because he carries a psychiatric dx.
> Just check out the headlines.
Patients with severe mental illness commit approximately 1 in 20 violent
crimes:
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/41/17/25-a
Only a small percentage of the mentally ill become violent; they are far
more likely to be victims than perpetrators.
Given this information, it seems at least as reasonable that everyone in the
new neighborhood inform the OP of their personal history of violence and
aberrant behavior, including any bad acts performed under the influence of
drugs or alcohol, so he can take steps to protect himself from them.
Don't help propagate hysteria.
slide
>
> There is no legal obligation to disclose personal medical information to the
> general public, either.
>
> I think it's unreasonable for you to infer, based on the OP's report of
> occasional outbursts, that his behavior would be frequent enough or
> disruptive enough to qualify as a public nuisance.
>
I'm not going to teach another poster to read. Instead refer to my
answer to the other fellow (your sock puppet maybe?) who claims I used
the word 'obligation' or its synonym in any of my replies. My answer is
below in the hierarchy.
As to frequency, it is the OP who is concerned that it's enough to cause
problems. I don't know nor can I know this. If you don't like it, take
it up with him.
As to spreading hysteria, well, I'm not doing it. The headlines are. The
head of Homeland Security just made a big announcement that returning
soldiers are so crazy that they may foment a civil war in the US.
Here's one link:
Ian Michael Gumby
> Ian Michael Gumby wrote:
> > Actually no.
> > You are under no obligation to divulge anything.
>
> Point out to me where the word obligation or its synonym appears
> anywhere in my reply to the OP.
>
The OP was wondering how he should handle the situation. He has stated
that he's had issues before with neighbors and was wondering what his
legal rights were.
Because of this, it is his legal right to not divulge anything until
after a complaint has occurred.
> > The problem with this question is that the OP doesn't describe the
> > type of home/house/condo/etc that they are moving to.
>
> An irrelevancy. The OP is concerned about being misunderstood by
> neighbors. It isn't relevant if this is a condo or single family
> dwelling or a termite mound. There are neighbors who may think he's
> dangerous and take action due to his acting out fantasies.
>
>
Again, no. Whether its a condo, apartment, townhome, single family
home within an HOA and single family home outside of an HOA is *very*
relevant. Both the OP and his neighbors have rights. In this case the
proximity is an issue. The closer the neighbor, the more likely the
chance of a noise complaint. Also HOA residents sign away some of
their rights under the T's and C's of the HOA so this will have a
*direct* impact on what happens when a complaint occurs.
In an HOA, the 'neighbors' could call the police, but would more
likely raise the issue with the HOA's BoD. Also, if/when the OP moves
in to an HOA, he may want to consider disclosing his illness to the
HOA BoD in confidence ahead of any such complaints. One of the key
issues under FHA, the member of the protected class, he has to give
the BoD notice that he is a member of the protected class before he
could ask for a reasonable accommodation.
If the OP is moving in to a single family home outside of an HOA, then
any neighbor's complaints would be to the police.
With respect to the FHA, its the law which will come in to play if
things get bad. Its the law that protects the OP...
Ironically, this is a case which is the reverse side of Hilary's
posts....
In Hilary's case, she wants to sue the Apartment complex for not
making a reasonable accommodation in her favor.
However, consider the rights of the 'noisy neighbor' who also would be
protected under the same law. If we looked at her case in the flip
side, the 'noisy neighbor' lived in his apartment first. None of his
neighbors complained about loud noises except for Hilary. So when you
have a conflict, the apartment complex has to determine who's rights
under the FHA trump who, or how you can settle this with making a
reasonable accommodation to the complaining party.
While this is OT to this thread, its important to note that Hilary has
said several things in her many posts which indicate that she doesn't
have a case.
Seth
David Martel <mart...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Unless your neighbors have specifically given up their rights you will
>not be allowed to disturb the peace. If your illness compels you to be noisy
>and there are complaints, the police will arrest you.
Why doesn't that apply to, say, sports fans who get loud when watching
a game on television?
"My next-door neighbor is yelling" is not exactly a high-priority issue.
> A defense lawyer will
>be able to argue an "insanity" not guilty plea. I think that defense will
>work but still, you'll have spent a night in jail.
I take it you've never called the police about a noisy neighbor. If
you did, what happened?
Seth