How to stop the night wakings?
cjra
DD is 20 months, and though she went through a few months of 9-11 hour
sleep stretches, for the past few months she's back to waking up 1-2x
night. Always around 4am, and sometimes around 1am. It's getting
wearing on the whole household, although DH deals with it more than I.
We usually nurse to bed sometime between 7-8pm: we start bedtime
process around 7, but if it's bath night bedtime is a bit later.
Usually this works and she's asleep by 8:30 or so. We were all co-
sleeping, but around about November I realized that the All Night
Booby Buffet was keeping her up, so I moved to another room (we don't
really have a room for her yet, hopefully by August). That made her
start sleeping longer for awhile. If she does wake up DH will either
give her some milk, water, or snuggle and she'd fall back to sleep.
Lately, though, she's been having a harder time falling back to sleep.
If I go in to nurse her to sleep she doesn't really sleep, she just
latches on for hours - if I try to remove my nipple gently she
screams, so I know she's not fully asleep, nor am I :(
She has a 1-1.5 hour nap at daycare and is fine during the day with
other kids to distract her all day, but she's really cranky when she
gets home and I think that's because she's so tired. She won't take a
second nap (never has).
Apart from the fact I'd like my bed back, I'd like to get her to
sleep! We do put her in a crib which is in our room, but to do that we
have to let her cry. Usually that only takes a few minutes, but it's
not something I'd like to do. Is that going to be our last resort now
for the 4am wakeup?
cjra
> Apart from the fact I'd like my bed back, I'd like to get her to
> sleep! We do put her in a crib which is in our room, but to do that we
> have to let her cry. Usually that only takes a few minutes, but it's
> not something I'd like to do. Is that going to be our last resort now
> for the 4am wakeup?
let me correct this - at 9pm (which is when we resort to the crib if
she hasn't already fallen asleep), it now only takes a few minutes
before she goes out. But at 4am, the few times we've tried, it's been
30min+ of _screaming_ before we finally give up. So I know it'll take
a long time.
Chris
Babies that age can have nightmares or simply startle themselves with
a dream fall, as they fall quite frequently every day at this age.
They can also be getting their 2-year molars, which can inflame,
subside, inflame again later, etc. I'd get her ears checked if you
haven't already too just to rule it out. I wouldn't let her cry it
out. Move her crib to the side of your bed so that you can reach a
hand in and comfort her telling her shhhh, it's okay, mama's gotchya,
etc. Try some white noise like a small fan. She'll learn that whatever
it is that is waking her (minus anything painful) is only temporary
and nothing to worry about. My 2-y/o loves to hit his Ocean Wonders
mobile button, and he has done so since before the age of 1 actually.
I hear it playing sometimes 4 or 5 times a night on the baby monitor,
but he is obviously able to comfort himself back to sleep with either
the music or the light.
cjra
> On Mar 12, 9:24�am, cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 12, 7:22 am, cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Apart from the fact I'd like my bed back, I'd like to get her to
> > > sleep! We do put her in a crib which is in our room, but to do that we
> > > have to let her cry. Usually that only takes a few minutes, but it's
> > > not something I'd like to do. Is that going to be our last resort now
> > > for the 4am wakeup?
>
> > let me correct this - at 9pm (which is when we resort to the crib if
> > she hasn't already fallen asleep), it now only takes a few minutes
> > before she goes out. But at 4am, the few times we've tried, it's been
> > 30min+ of _screaming_ before we finally give up. So I know it'll take
> > a long time.
>
> Babies that age can have nightmares or simply startle themselves with
> a dream fall, as they fall quite frequently every day at this age.
> They can also be getting their 2-year molars, which can inflame,
> subside, inflame again later, etc. I'd get her ears checked if you
> haven't already too just to rule it out.
We've had the ears checked often, although the last time was early
Feb. No problems there.
> I wouldn't let her cry it
> out. Move her crib to the side of your bed so that you can reach a
> hand in and comfort her telling her shhhh, it's okay, mama's gotchya,
> etc.
That's a good idea..let's see if I can fit the crib there, although
when I sleep in the same room with her now, she knows I'm there but
not as close as she'd like so she screams more. She doesn't so much
when it's just my husband with her.
> Try some white noise like a small fan. She'll learn that whatever
> it is that is waking her (minus anything painful) is only temporary
> and nothing to worry about. My 2-y/o loves to hit his Ocean Wonders
> mobile button, and he has done so since before the age of 1 actually.
> I hear it playing sometimes 4 or 5 times a night on the baby monitor,
> but he is obviously able to comfort himself back to sleep with either
> the music or the light.
We have one of these things which she loves, but to her it means 4am
Dance Time. She starts laughing and singing and carrying on. It
doesn't put her back to sleep :(
jane...@gmail.com
As a mom to two kids (3.5 & 5yo) I empathize. My kids have never slept
through the night and I've given up. They go to bed at 8pm
consistently and fall asleep on their own. They come to our bed any
time after 2am (time varies) and sleep there until it's morning. I've
learnt to cherish the cuddles because I know pretty soon they will
pretend not to recognize me in public :)
As long as you are getting adequate sleep and you're okay with it, let
her come to your bed when she wakes up in the middle of the night.
Instead of you going to her, teach her to come to you.
cjra
> As a mom to two kids (3.5 & 5yo) I empathize. My kids have never slept
> through the night and I've given up. They go to bed at 8pm
> consistently and fall asleep on their own. They come to our bed any
> time after 2am (time varies) and sleep there until it's morning. I've
> learnt to cherish the cuddles because I know pretty soon they will
> pretend not to recognize me in public :)
I told myself that for 20 months, but it's no longer flying.
> As long as you are getting adequate sleep and you're okay with it, let
> her come to your bed when she wakes up in the middle of the night.
> Instead of you going to her, teach her to come to you.
That's the problem. We're not getting adequate sleep and we're not ok
with it, which is why I asked for some help. I can live on little,
but almost 2 years of 4-6 hours per night is getting to be a problem.
My husband can't manage on less than 6. We can't function during the
day. I also don't think DD is getting enough sleep, because she's so
cranky at night and clearly tired but won't sleep.
She doesn't need to 'come to us' as 90% of the time she's already in
our bed. Otherwise she's in a crib. She does know how to crawl off a
bed when she's awake, but asleep she moves around so much I don't
trust her in a bed by herself, so she's either with us or in the crib.
Chris
Hugs to you both! I got lucky there with some sleepers. That's not to
say they didn't have occasional issues, but for the most part,
sleepers. lol. (not trying to rub it in). I'd try the white noise
machine or a fan - I find it helps block out noise, as well as
silence. My last baby was an awesome sleeper because the crib was next
to me and he could probably just be soothed by our breathing/sleeping
noises, but he has been in his own room since age 1 (the same room
though because we converted our family room into a fourth bedroom so
there was no change involved for him) with occasional difficulties.
The other 2 were in their own rooms from pretty much the getgo, the
only exception being the first couple of months with our first (he
would crack open an eye at a week old to see if we were still there!).
lol. I can tell with his cry what has probably occurred - hurting,
sleeping limb with numbness or tingling, scared, etc. He is 2 years
and 5 months old, and he is able to say "it hurts" or hold his
sleeping arm out to me. He definitely doesn't seem to like stone
silence though, hence the tabletop fan in his room pointed into the
closet. All of the kids wound up, and the last one winds up, in our
bed from time to time though. Good luck. Hopefully it will pass soon.
You could try a dose of Tylenol or Motrin just to see if it was due to
teething pain from molars too. You can't always see those ones working
in during the early stages. I have known people who say they haven't
slept a good night since giving birth XX years ago too though. That
gives me shivers!
cjra
pbbbtttthhh!
> I'd try the white noise
> machine or a fan - I find it helps block out noise, as well as
> silence.
Ah yes. I have often considered this and *I* like white noise, but
have a husband who hates it. We had to search for a fan that had NO
noise....I've tried convincing him to sleep in the other room (it's
kind of open, no doors, as it's not really a bedroom, it's just where
we have the spare bed til we finish her room, which is why I can't put
her there), but he claims he can't sleep in that bed. grrrr
>My last baby was an awesome sleeper because the crib was next
> to me and he could probably just be soothed by our breathing/sleeping
> noises, but he has been in his own room since age 1 (the same room
> though because we converted our family room into a fourth bedroom so
> there was no change involved for him) with occasional difficulties.
DD has slept with us since she came home from NICU (I sometimes wonder
if she's trying to make up for those 3 weeks of not being near
us!)...I had visions of moving her out at about a year but we didn't
get to her room yet. We're finally starting now. She's never been a
good sleeper, and I think now, being near us wakes her up more, that's
why my moving out of the room helped for awhile. It's been lousy ever
since she got croup, got better for awhile, but is now really lousy
again.
> The other 2 were in their own rooms from pretty much the getgo, the
> only exception being the first couple of months with our first (he
> would crack open an eye at a week old to see if we were still there!).
> lol. I can tell with his cry what has probably occurred - hurting,
> sleeping limb with numbness or tingling, scared, etc. He is 2 years
> and 5 months old, and he is able to say "it hurts" or hold his
> sleeping arm out to me. He definitely doesn't seem to like stone
> silence though, hence the tabletop fan in his room pointed into the
> closet. All of the kids wound up, and the last one winds up, in our
> bed from time to time though. Good luck. Hopefully it will pass soon.
> You could try a dose of Tylenol or Motrin just to see if it was due to
> teething pain from molars too. You can't always see those ones working
> in during the early stages.
I did think she was teething some of those nights, but tylenol or
motrin don't do much for her. They seem to have no effect. I wonder if
it's because she had such heavy drugs the first week of life (she was
under heavy sedation) that she's too sensitized....I don't know how
valid that is, but I have noticed that the effect of the meds is minor
if at all - if she's really teething it'll calm her down some, but
doesn't help her sleep.
> I have known people who say they haven't
> slept a good night since giving birth XX years ago too though. That
> gives me shivers!
:(
I had such high hopes as it was improving for awhile, but now seems to
be going downhill again. She wasn't eating a lot at nights for awhile,
and I thought that was it, but even when she does eat well, she's
still not sleeping.
Beth Kevles
Hi --
With our kids, we approached things as follows, and had both kids pretty
much sleeping through before age 2:
First, deal with falling asleep at night:
Feed well so the child falls asleep feeling full
Never nurse all the way to sleep
Consistent sleeping place (crib -- I could never sleep through
the night snuffles when in the same room)
Next, deal with morning:
Blackout shades in bedroom
Never feed right on waking. Instead, do morning routine first
(diaper, dress both of us)
Go to kitchen to eat and nurse
Finally, deal with night wakings:
Never feed at night
Be boring at night -- no talking, just "shhh, shhh"
Keep child in crib when he wakes, do not remove to my bed
Let child cry if it doesn't last more than minutes
Consider pain reliever (tylenol, etc) if you suspect teething
pain causing the wakings
The theory is that waking is caused partly by habits that can be
changed. Ie, a child is used to eating right away on waking, so learns
to waken when mildly hungry. But by age two (or earlier) the child
should be able to sleep through a certain amount of hunger.
In the end, we had one night with 10 minutes of crying, one night of two
minutes, and that was it for crying. BUT this was after we had put all
the other steps in place.
Sleeping through the night is GLORIOUS. The kids are 10 and 12 now,
which means we have the opposite problem: getting them out of bed in the
morning.
Good luck,
--Beth Kevles
bethk...@gmail.PUT-THE-COM-HERE
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.
NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the GMAIL one if you would
like me to reply.
Stephanie
"Beth Kevles" <kev...@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:47d845f3$0$291$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
>
> Hi --
>
> With our kids, we approached things as follows, and had both kids pretty
> much sleeping through before age 2:
>
> First, deal with falling asleep at night:
> Feed well so the child falls asleep feeling full
> Never nurse all the way to sleep
> Consistent sleeping place (crib -- I could never sleep through
> the night snuffles when in the same room)
>
Futher the habot and associate will feel sleepy if it is consistent.
Sarah Vaughan
1. Is it possible to get her to bed any earlier than you're already
doing? If she's already really tired when she gets in, that may mean
that by the time she gets to sleep she's worked up enough that she's
more likely to wake in the night. Sometimes an earlier bedtime can help.
2. Will she take a pacifier rather than your nipple to suck on? Helped
a great deal with my son.
3. Do you nurse her to sleep at bedtime? I agree with Beth that it may
be worth tackling this issue first and getting her to complete the final
steps of falling asleep without nursing (i.e. nurse her until nearly
asleep, unlatch, comfort her in other ways but stand firm on not
offering the breast again before she goes to sleep). Spending a week or
two getting her used to going to sleep without nursing may well mean
that when you do tackle the night wakings you have more luck with them
because she's already used to getting to sleep without nursing. (The
advantage of this is that you can work on her getting-to-sleep skills in
the evening rather than in the middle of the night when all you want to
do is to get back to sleep. However, you may prefer just to get it all
over with in one go.) If you do work on the bedtime falling-to-sleep
first, then at 4 a.m. just nurse her straight away or whatever you
normally do to get her to sleep - if she either gets nursed straight
away or has to go to sleep without nursing then she'll figure it out
pretty quickly, but if she sometimes has to go to sleep without nursing
but sometimes gets the breast if she cries long enough then that gives
her an incentive to keep crying for longer as she has reason to think it
might work (see 6 below).
4. If she's waking at a specific time each night, there is a technique
you can use called the wake-to-sleep technique or scheduled awakening.
Basically, you set your alarm, go into your room between 15 and 60
minutes before the time when you expect her to wake (so, between 3 and
3.45 a.m), wake her partway up, and settle her again. This can readjust
the sleep cycle and thus eliminate the habitual waking. Tracy Hogg
gives the most complete description of this that I've got in 'The Baby
Whisperer Solves All Your Problems', and advises that if the child is
still waking up at the usual time after three nights of trying this, you
might as well drop it, but if they seem to be stopping their usual
waking then continue with the scheduled awakening for six nights before
stopping. This has been found to be as effective as CIO techniques, but
it's a pain to implement.
5. If you do use CIO, bear in mind that just because you won't *nurse*
her doesn't mean that you can't comfort her in other ways while she gets
used to going to sleep without nursing. Thus, it may help to stay with
her and cuddle her until she falls asleep. Or, if she's in the crib,
just keep lowering her down every time she stands up and patting and
reassuring her. (Your husband may be better able to do this since he
doesn't have breasts and thus there isn't quite that same "Don't mock me
with what I can't have!" effect that can happen in such circumstances.)
My view when I tried this with my son was that, as long as I was there
with him and cuddling him when he cried and he wasn't actually hungry or
in need of a change, then I was meeting his needs. I might not be
meeting all his *wants*, but that was OK with me because I don't believe
parenthood is about meeting all your child's wants.
6. Don't try this unless you're prepared to see it through. The pattern
of letting her cry for 30 minutes and then nursing her just makes it
harder for you next time, because now she knows that if she holds out
for long enough she'll get nursed. When I tried eliminating nursing to
sleep for my son's bedtime, I read that it can take over an hour in some
cases, so I braced myself for it to take that long. In the end, it took
47 minutes the first night and was much easier thereafter. Keep a note
of how long it takes each time, so that you can see improvement happening.
Good luck!
All the best,
Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com
"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell
cjra
> Hi --
>
> With our kids, we approached things as follows, and had both kids pretty
> much sleeping through before age 2:
>
> First, deal with falling asleep at night:
> Feed well so the child falls asleep feeling full
> Never nurse all the way to sleep
> Consistent sleeping place (crib -- I could never sleep through
> the night snuffles when in the same room)
We have a few issues here - her eating habits are hit and miss these
days. Some nights she gobbles up a storm. Other nights it's a few
bites and NOTHING we do can make her eat more. I figured that was
associated with her sleep issues, but actually last night she ate a
ton and slept very poorly.
The nursing to sleep is an issue. How does one stop this? When I don't
nurse her to sleep, she just cries and cries. That said, when I'm not
here, DH is able to get her to sleep. But if she knows I'm in the
house, she won't stop til she has me.
Our consistent sleep place is our bed, and that's what I'd like to
change to the crib, but the crib is in our room. SO it's like teasing
her - we're there but she can't lay on top of us.
>
> Next, deal with morning:
> Blackout shades in bedroom
> Never feed right on waking. Instead, do morning routine first
> (diaper, dress both of us)
> Go to kitchen to eat and nurse
We do all this already, morning is usually not a problem.
>
> Finally, deal with night wakings:
> Never feed at night
We haven't been consistent here. No feeding at night was working for
awhile, but DH gave in a few times (and ok, I gave in a few times too
and now we're screwed....)
> Be boring at night -- no talking, just "shhh, shhh"
This has been a consistent thing we've done.
> Keep child in crib when he wakes, do not remove to my bed
Well, since she's always co-slept, the whole transition to crib will
be an issue.
> Let child cry if it doesn't last more than minutes
We have tried this, I think we lasted 30 minutes which was too long
for everyone.
> Consider pain reliever (tylenol, etc) if you suspect teething
> pain causing the wakings
Tried that a few times, but as I've said elsewhere, pain relievers
seem to do nothing for her.
>
> The theory is that waking is caused partly by habits that can be
> changed. Ie, a child is used to eating right away on waking, so learns
> to waken when mildly hungry. But by age two (or earlier) the child
> should be able to sleep through a certain amount of hunger.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a habit. That was why my leaving the room
helped. But ever since she had croup (over Thanksgiving) her sleep
pattern got all thrown off and has never recovered. Didn't help that
we travelled soon after that, then I was in hospital for emergency
surgery, and then ill...so everything was off for a good 6 weeks.
We've been trying to get back on track for the past 6 weeks and it's
not working!
> Sleeping through the night is GLORIOUS. The kids are 10 and 12 now,
> which means we have the opposite problem: getting them out of bed in the
> morning.
We already decided that when we get to that stage, we're going to bang
pots in her room as payback ;-)
Thanks for the suggestions. We'll try them out.
cjra
> Thoughts:
>
> 1. Is it possible to get her to bed any earlier than you're already
> doing? If she's already really tired when she gets in, that may mean
> that by the time she gets to sleep she's worked up enough that she's
> more likely to wake in the night. Sometimes an earlier bedtime can help.
We often don't get home til close to 6pm. By the time we're done
eating it's close to 7pm. Not much we can change there,
unfortunately.That's been the schedule for the past year, and for
awhile was fine. I think now it's problematic because she's getting so
little sleep at night. She wasn't acting tired (no rubbing eyes for
example, but after multiple 6pm meltdowns, I figured it was tiredness)
I have tried just putting her down as soon as we get home for a 'nap'
then feeding her afterwards, but it doesn't work. She has no interest
in that.
> 2. Will she take a pacifier rather than your nipple to suck on? Helped
> a great deal with my son.
hahahahaha!
No. No pacifier. I tried many times. I've even tried sneaking it in in
place of my nipple. She's too smart for that ;-) The look on her face
when you give her a pacifier is priceless.
> 3. Do you nurse her to sleep at bedtime?
Yes, although when I'm away (which doesn't happen often but lately has
been ~ 2-3x per month), DH puts her to bed.
> I agree with Beth that it may
> be worth tackling this issue first and getting her to complete the final
> steps of falling asleep without nursing (i.e. nurse her until nearly
> asleep, unlatch, comfort her in other ways but stand firm on not
> offering the breast again before she goes to sleep). Spending a week or
> two getting her used to going to sleep without nursing may well mean
> that when you do tackle the night wakings you have more luck with them
> because she's already used to getting to sleep without nursing. (The
> advantage of this is that you can work on her getting-to-sleep skills in
> the evening rather than in the middle of the night when all you want to
> do is to get back to sleep. However, you may prefer just to get it all
> over with in one go.) If you do work on the bedtime falling-to-sleep
> first, then at 4 a.m. just nurse her straight away or whatever you
> normally do to get her to sleep - if she either gets nursed straight
> away or has to go to sleep without nursing then she'll figure it out
> pretty quickly, but if she sometimes has to go to sleep without nursing
> but sometimes gets the breast if she cries long enough then that gives
> her an incentive to keep crying for longer as she has reason to think it
> might work (see 6 below).
I think we'll go this route for awhile. I am concerned about her lack
of food - nights when she doesn't eat much I always worry she'll wake
because she's starving, so think that nursing her will help that, but
it doesn't....
> 4. If she's waking at a specific time each night, there is a technique
> you can use called the wake-to-sleep technique or scheduled awakening.
> Basically, you set your alarm, go into your room between 15 and 60
> minutes before the time when you expect her to wake (so, between 3 and
> 3.45 a.m), wake her partway up, and settle her again. This can readjust
> the sleep cycle and thus eliminate the habitual waking. Tracy Hogg
> gives the most complete description of this that I've got in 'The Baby
> Whisperer Solves All Your Problems', and advises that if the child is
> still waking up at the usual time after three nights of trying this, you
> might as well drop it, but if they seem to be stopping their usual
> waking then continue with the scheduled awakening for six nights before
> stopping. This has been found to be as effective as CIO techniques, but
> it's a pain to implement.
Well, she's in 'our' room - although I've been sleeping in another
room lately. She's in bed with DH. I still wake up automatically about
3:45 knowing she'll wake up (I do this even when I'm away, it's so
annoying!). I guess i'd be afraid to try this...the idea is to wake
her a bit before she really wakes up?
For so long I always got to her immediately on the first peep and
could usually settle her back down. But now I've avoided going to her
because she wants to nurse, and then she just nurses non-stop and
doesn't fall asleep. I think this would require my DH waking up before
her and doing it and I don't think he's up to the task, honestly. He
has taken over the night wakings for the most part (not that it helps
my sleep much, but the idea was it helped DD to sleep), but I don't
think I could convince him to wake up before her.
>
> 5. If you do use CIO, bear in mind that just because you won't *nurse*
> her doesn't mean that you can't comfort her in other ways while she gets
> used to going to sleep without nursing. Thus, it may help to stay with
> her and cuddle her until she falls asleep.
I've tried doing this a lot - just rocking her or cuddling rather than
nursing. It usually calms her and that's when I'm sure she's not
waking for hunger. Other times she goes straight for the boobs and
nothing will distract her. Problem has been though that though it
calms her, it doesn't put her to sleep.
> 6. Don't try this unless you're prepared to see it through. The pattern
> of letting her cry for 30 minutes and then nursing her just makes it
> harder for you next time, because now she knows that if she holds out
> for long enough she'll get nursed. When I tried eliminating nursing to
> sleep for my son's bedtime, I read that it can take over an hour in some
> cases, so I braced myself for it to take that long. In the end, it took
> 47 minutes the first night and was much easier thereafter. Keep a note
> of how long it takes each time, so that you can see improvement happening.
Yeah, that's why we haven't really tried it yet...earlier on my DH was
more keen to try it and I wasn't. Now I'm ready and he says it's
cruel...that said I have let her CIO a few times for sleeping (when DH
wasn't home), if she just refused to fall asleep after an hour or more
of me with her. One time it took an hour, but the few other times it
was only a few minutes. We haven't done it consistently though -
hadn't really needed to for bedtime.
We tried once for the 4am wakeup and gave in.
Thanks for the suggestions, it gives me something to work with. I know
I'm supposed to accept all this and be grateful she still wants to be
with me, but one can only function on little sleep for so long....
Nikki
"cjra" <cjro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43520169-54eb-441d...@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> Am I left to resort to scream-it-out?
>
> DD is 20 months, and though she went through a few months of 9-11 hour
> sleep stretches, for the past few months she's back to waking up 1-2x
> night. Always around 4am, and sometimes around 1am.
I'll share my thoughts based on my experiences. I basically suck at night
time parenting - or at least I don't have stellar results so keep that in
mind. My first two boys co-slept and did not sleep through for years. I
did CIO with my second two boys. They are 23mos right now.
1) An earlier bedtime might really do the trick. My boys always go to sleep
at the same time (7:30pm) but if they miss their nap they almost always
wake at night crying. They get up at 6:30-7am and have a 1-1.5hr nap most
days - unless they decide to party through it.
2) I think you might have to decide on co-sleeping or crib sleeping and
embrace one or the other. The combination works for some kids but not all.
I would also take a pretty hard line on the night weaning. My boys both
have sippy cups of water in their crib and I hear the one drink often. I
night weaned one of my older boys at 18mos but continued to co-sleep. He
quit crying about it relatively quickly but he continued to wake at night
and ask to nurse until he was completely weaned at 26mos. After that he
slept through if I was in bed with him. IIRC I had my bed on the floor so I
just laid there and let him crawl around and it didn't last long. He also
had a sippy available. Might not be an option on a regular bed.
3) I tried to do all the right things with my second two boys. I never
nursed to sleep, they always slept in their cribs, they went down awake, we
had a stead fast routine, blah blah blah. They went to sleep in their cribs
like a dream - and still didn't sleep through. I could not get that to
change without night weaning and CIO.
4) They mostly sleep now but if there is a freak night I go to them after
about 5 min. If they are sick I go right away. After illness or other
things where I have gotten up with them 4-5 nights in a row they aren't
giving that up and I do CIO again. I feel terrible about it. They can
sometimes cry for quite some time. I can't figure out what they want, I've
done everything I can think of, and frankly I can not go back to the chronic
sleep deprivation I had with the first two. I just can not do it when I
can't think of anything wrong with them. I was not able to figure out a
gentle way to do it but they don't seem to have suffered from it so.
5) Good luck. I know this is really hard. Oh - one more thing. Mine wake
up most often when the heater kicks on. I moved the crib so it wasn't
blowing down on them and that seemed to help. Maybe there is something
happening at 4am that is waking her?
--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06
cjra
>
> I'll share my thoughts based on my experiences. I basically suck at night
> time parenting - or at least I don't have stellar results so keep that in
> mind. My first two boys co-slept and did not sleep through for years. I
> did CIO with my second two boys. They are 23mos right now.
I'll take whatever insight I can get.
>
> 1) An earlier bedtime might really do the trick. My boys always go to sleep
> at the same time (7:30pm) but if they miss their nap they almost always
> wake at night crying. They get up at 6:30-7am and have a 1-1.5hr nap most
> days - unless they decide to party through it.
We start bedtime at 7pm. If it's bath night that adds in another 15
minutes or so. This may be another issue, but I'm not sure as it's not
consistent. bath time = play time for her. She goes nuts in the bath,
it's not really relaxing. However it doesn't seem to have an effect
either way on the falling to sleep.
Generally we're in bed by 7:30 almost every night, and sometimes
she'll fall to sleep in 10 minutes (~6 songs on the night time CD) and
sometimes it'll take an hour.
SHe's good with her naps at daycare 'cause all the other kids sleep.
One the weekends it's another story, kind of hit or miss.
> 2) I think you might have to decide on co-sleeping or crib sleeping and
> embrace one or the other. The combination works for some kids but not all.
> I would also take a pretty hard line on the night weaning. My boys both
> have sippy cups of water in their crib and I hear the one drink often. I
> night weaned one of my older boys at 18mos but continued to co-sleep. He
> quit crying about it relatively quickly but he continued to wake at night
> and ask to nurse until he was completely weaned at 26mos. After that he
> slept through if I was in bed with him. IIRC I had my bed on the floor so I
> just laid there and let him crawl around and it didn't last long. He also
> had a sippy available. Might not be an option on a regular bed.
Ok. We're at 95% co-sleeping, but I'd like to move her to the crib as
I think that's the only way she's going to sleep. Now I have to
convince my husband...our bed is low to the ground, so she can get off
it easily. The problem is when she sleeps by herself she squirms
everywhere and I've caught her nearly falling off asleep a few times.
She was basically night weaned from about 14 months until almost 17
months when she got croup. During that time it worked just by having
DH there and not me, it wasn't too difficult, but we've never been
able to fully go back to that since that blasted croup.
>
> 3) I tried to do all the right things with my second two boys. I never
> nursed to sleep, they always slept in their cribs, they went down awake, we
> had a stead fast routine, blah blah blah. They went to sleep in their cribs
> like a dream - and still didn't sleep through. I could not get that to
> change without night weaning and CIO.
I guess this is good to hear...when people say her sleep problems are
due to nursing to sleep or co-sleeping...although I had hoped we'd
have better luck the next time around.
> 4) They mostly sleep now but if there is a freak night I go to them after
> about 5 min. If they are sick I go right away. After illness or other
> things where I have gotten up with them 4-5 nights in a row they aren't
> giving that up and I do CIO again. I feel terrible about it. They can
> sometimes cry for quite some time. I can't figure out what they want, I've
> done everything I can think of, and frankly I can not go back to the chronic
> sleep deprivation I had with the first two. I just can not do it when I
> can't think of anything wrong with them. I was not able to figure out a
> gentle way to do it but they don't seem to have suffered from it so.
I really don't like the concept of CIO. The couple of times I've let
her cry have been out of sheer desperation. It's hard for me to do it
in a planned manner, although I'm getting there. I'd prefer to find
something gentler. I really don't care about everyone else telling me
she should be STTN by now. Until recently I was tolerating it ok, but
it's really taking its toll on both DH and myself and I think her too.
>
> 5) Good luck. I know this is really hard. Oh - one more thing. Mine wake
> up most often when the heater kicks on. I moved the crib so it wasn't
> blowing down on them and that seemed to help. Maybe there is something
> happening at 4am that is waking her?
Hmmm. You can barely hear the heater in that room and can't feel the
blowing air really (12 ft ceilings, which make it cold closer to the
floor where the bed is!), I'm not sure what else is happening. Maybe
I'll have to check and see if there's some other environmental noise
going on.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Nikki
I really don't like the concept of CIO. The couple of times I've let
her cry have been out of sheer desperation. It's hard for me to do it
in a planned manner, although I'm getting there. I'd prefer to find
something gentler. I really don't care about everyone else telling me
she should be STTN by now. Until recently I was tolerating it ok, but
it's really taking its toll on both DH and myself and I think her too.
I understand. Two more thoughts.....
I would really not worry about her needing food at night. She might eat a
lot when nursed but unless she has a weight gain issue she will be fine.
Kids this age will have days when they eat hardly anything. It just works
that way. She'll eat a big breakfast if she's hungry. I also give my boys
smoothies before bed. I make them with yogurt, whole milk, banana, berries.
It is quite filling I think. They have sort of quit eating them of their
own accord but that has only been recently. Oh - if the bed is low to the
ground I wouldn't be overly worried about her on that either. Each of my
big kids only fell off a bed once.
I have to be honest and say I don't see a way to get a 95% co-sleeping
toddler that night nurses on occasion to move to a crib on her own without
some serious crying. I'd either bite the bullet and let the crying commence
and stick with it for 5-7 days before throwing in the towel or figure out a
way to make co-sleeping work better for all.
You might consider taking a hard line at the night weaning while going back
to all sleeping together again. There will probably be crying involved but
IME it is different to have her crying next to you because she is mad you've
changed the plan then it is crying totally confused in a crib. It will also
probably be much less intense. You can refuse to nurse and say - 'We only
nurse when the sun is shining' or 'only in our rocking chair' and then just
lay there and let her work through it. If you don't do anything more then
say a few gentle words and lay your hand on her back to comfort her I think
she'll quit the midnight party behavior and go back to sleep in a fairly
timely way, without many antics. It was easy for me to lay there and ignore
because I was so flipp'n tired, lol. After the initial shock even though
he woke a couple times a night asking to nurse it was just a blip - didn't
really mess with my sleep much because I'd just say no and he'd go back to
sleep. My issue was that they would not sleep without me in the bed with
them.
I also learned that I had to promise myself to stick with something for x
amount of time - like I'd suggest at least two weeks for the above scenario.
Changes happen fast for some kids but 3 of mine were a little more stubborn
and needed much longer to accept a new plan.
lu-lu
> 4. If she's waking at a specific time each night, there is a technique
> you can use called the wake-to-sleep technique or scheduled awakening.
> Basically, you set your alarm, go into your room between 15 and 60
> minutes before the time when you expect her to wake (so, between 3 and
> 3.45 a.m), wake her partway up, and settle her again. This can readjust
> the sleep cycle and thus eliminate the habitual waking. Tracy Hogg
> gives the most complete description of this that I've got in 'The Baby
> Whisperer Solves All Your Problems', and advises that if the child is
> still waking up at the usual time after three nights of trying this, you
> might as well drop it, but if they seem to be stopping their usual
> waking then continue with the scheduled awakening for six nights before
> stopping. This has been found to be as effective as CIO techniques, but
> it's a pain to implement.
Well, she's in 'our' room - although I've been sleeping in another
room lately. She's in bed with DH. I still wake up automatically about
3:45 knowing she'll wake up (I do this even when I'm away, it's so
annoying!). I guess i'd be afraid to try this...the idea is to wake
her a bit before she really wakes up?
Hi Cjra
I did this with Jessica. When she was 6 weeks, she used to go to sleep at
9pm, sleep til midnight, nurse and then sleep until 6am. I started going im
at about 23.50 and nursing her without waking her properly. That eliminated
the need for her to wake fully (as with you waking while you're away, it'll
have become part of her routine too) and she very quickly learnt to sleep
through. I don't know how it will work for an older child, as Jessie was
still at the newborn 'I can sleep and eat at the same time' stage, but I
think it's worth trying. I think part of it is the surprise at being woken
when they're sleeping peacefully and the gratitude of being allowed back to
sleep!
In regards to the 6pm meltdowns, it kinda sounds like Jessica when it all
gets too much for her. You might find she's tired *and* hungry, and
therefore unhappy too. If dinner's going to be later than madam would like,
I give her something little in the car like a roll or some fruit. It
occupies her while she's waiting, takes the edge off her hunger and gives
her a little energy boost.
How much does she sleep duing the day? I tried cutting Jessie's naps out in
the day, but she just wasn't ready for that, and if she doesn't sleep at
all, she's pretty evil by 7pm. I try to get her to nap for about an hour
after lunch and then gently wake her up. If she's desperate to stay asleep,
I let her have an another half an hour or so. Her bed time hasn't changed
since she was born, and she's always grateful to go to bed when we take her,
and impatient if the milk/pyjamas etc aren't ready!
Not saying it's perfect, but here's her routine. I'm not advising you have
to follow it or anything, but it's here just to give an outline of her day.
7.30 Up. Breakfast (2 x Toast, sometimes cereal too). That takes about half
an hour or so, longer if she's trying to run off to play with the animals.
Then washing/teeth/dressing etc.
10.00 Snack, Ususally an apple or something.
12.30 Cooked lunch. I normally try to give her something like stew and
mashed potato as it fills her up and makes her sleepy.
1.30-2.30/3pm Sleep.
4pm. Small snack, raisins or a roll
7pm Cooked Dinner
8-9pm Bedtime routine, Bath, pyjamas and nappy, saying goodnight to all the
animals and me (Note they come first lol) bedtime CD on and she switches the
light off herself. She has no nightlights on at all, neither during her milk
nor overnight. DH cuddles her while she has her milk and puts her in her cot
when she's asleep..
Heh... It looks like we just sleep and eat here!! She does munch a lot
during the day, but the snacks are little, and I normally keep packets of
raisins in my handbag so that she can have them while we're out. If she's
hungry, her energy levels drop, and we get (extra) tantrums :) All I need to
do now is to get her to stop screaming when I put reins on her!
Sorry for the long post, Cjra, it was only going to be a quick one! Hope you
get some sleep soon hun.
Lucy x
Clisby
>
> 5) Good luck. I know this is really hard. Oh - one more thing. Mine wake
> up most often when the heater kicks on. I moved the crib so it wasn't
> blowing down on them and that seemed to help. Maybe there is something
> happening at 4am that is waking her?
>
>
That's worth checking. When my son was about a year old, he'd go to bed
at 7:30 p.m. and sleep until 3 or 4 a.m. Suddenly, he started waking
up, like clockwork, at 10 p.m. We had recently moved him to a room down
the hall - It took me about a week to realize my across-the-street
neighbor let his dogs out for their final run about 10, and the barking
was waking Joseph up (his new room was on the front of the house instead
of the back, so the dogs were a lot closer). You might wonder why it
took me a week to figure this out, but I didn't really 'hear' normal
city noises - it was all just background noise to me.
Clisby
Sue
> sleep! We do put her in a crib which is in our room, but to do that we
> have to let her cry. Usually that only takes a few minutes, but it's
> not something I'd like to do. Is that going to be our last resort now
> for the 4am wakeup?
In my opinion, you are waffling on what you want to do and confusing her by
sometimes having her in the crib and sometimes in the bed with you. Pick one
and stick to it and really stick to it and be consistent. If there is one
thing I have learned about parenting, is that you have to be consistent with
whatever you decide to do. I have read it takes 21 days to change or break a
habit, so you might want to take that in consideration. Also, you may have
to have your husband handle all the night wakings and putting her to bed
until she gets used to sleeping through the night (which honestly, I do
think she should be able to do this by now. I think it is a habit and
because you are waffling, she is picking up on that). You have gotten some
good advice and its seems that anything anyone is suggesting, you are coming
up with excuses for why it won't work, house isn't set up right, she doesn't
have a room, etc. Put her crib in another room and be done with it. I think
she needs to go to bed earlier because it sounds like she is getting
overtired and by that time, you won't be able to settle her. Just my humble
opinion, take it for what its worth.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
Ericka Kammerer
> The nursing to sleep is an issue. How does one stop this? When I don't
> nurse her to sleep, she just cries and cries. That said, when I'm not
> here, DH is able to get her to sleep. But if she knows I'm in the
> house, she won't stop til she has me.
You may need to absent yourself at every bedtime for
a while.
> Our consistent sleep place is our bed, and that's what I'd like to
> change to the crib, but the crib is in our room. SO it's like teasing
> her - we're there but she can't lay on top of us.
Any chance of expediting completion of her room?
> We haven't been consistent here. No feeding at night was working for
> awhile, but DH gave in a few times (and ok, I gave in a few times too
> and now we're screwed....)
Not necessarily, but it does make it more of a
challenge.
>> The theory is that waking is caused partly by habits that can be
>> changed. Ie, a child is used to eating right away on waking, so learns
>> to waken when mildly hungry. But by age two (or earlier) the child
>> should be able to sleep through a certain amount of hunger.
>
> Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a habit. That was why my leaving the room
> helped. But ever since she had croup (over Thanksgiving) her sleep
> pattern got all thrown off and has never recovered. Didn't help that
> we travelled soon after that, then I was in hospital for emergency
> surgery, and then ill...so everything was off for a good 6 weeks.
> We've been trying to get back on track for the past 6 weeks and it's
> not working!
It does take a while to get back on track after upheaval
like that. You may just need to be patient and consistent. You
might also introduce another upheaval, but this time deliberately
in order to do things like get her to bed earlier, remove mom
from bedtime, stop feeding at night, etc.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> I've tried doing this a lot - just rocking her or cuddling rather than
> nursing. It usually calms her and that's when I'm sure she's not
> waking for hunger. Other times she goes straight for the boobs and
> nothing will distract her. Problem has been though that though it
> calms her, it doesn't put her to sleep.
It can be multiple reasons for waking at night--sometimes
habitual, sometimes hunger, sometimes something else, sometimes
two or more of the above. I know you can't force feed during the
day, but sometimes you can gently encourage more food by feeding
more often. What's the schedule at daycare? Can they introduce
more food there?
Also, for the comforting at night, you may not be able
to go as far as rocking and cuddling. You may need to keep her
in the crib and limit it to patting her back and such. Getting
her up may be enough to reorient her to playtime/cuddle time
rather than to sleep time.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> On Mar 12, 10:12 pm, "Nikki" <skavan...@iw.net> wrote:
> We start bedtime at 7pm. If it's bath night that adds in another 15
> minutes or so. This may be another issue, but I'm not sure as it's not
> consistent. bath time = play time for her. She goes nuts in the bath,
> it's not really relaxing. However it doesn't seem to have an effect
> either way on the falling to sleep.
You might try moving bath time to another time, then. That
may be tricky with your schedules, but maybe there's another time
that would suit.
> Generally we're in bed by 7:30 almost every night, and sometimes
> she'll fall to sleep in 10 minutes (~6 songs on the night time CD) and
> sometimes it'll take an hour.
See, that seems a bit wonky to me. If she's well into
a routine, I just wouldn't expect to see that much variation in
how long it takes her to get to sleep. I'm not sure if that's
being overtired, being overstimulated, having you nearby, or
what.
> SHe's good with her naps at daycare 'cause all the other kids sleep.
> One the weekends it's another story, kind of hit or miss.
Having two days a week where her daytime sleep is
messed up can keep the chaos alive with her nighttime sleep
during the week.
> I really don't like the concept of CIO. The couple of times I've let
> her cry have been out of sheer desperation. It's hard for me to do it
> in a planned manner, although I'm getting there. I'd prefer to find
> something gentler. I really don't care about everyone else telling me
> she should be STTN by now. Until recently I was tolerating it ok, but
> it's really taking its toll on both DH and myself and I think her too.
I am also not a big fan of CIO, but I do also believe there
are some personalities that will take you for a ride if you are not
willing to be firm. With those kids, it is not kind to be wishy
washy on boundaries, because it puts them on a roller coaster where
nothing is to be depended upon. It also makes life difficult for
you. Your daughter is not an infant anymore, so you are not dealing
with infant issues and needs, so you should not frame them that way
to yourself.
I think you have to make some distinctions here. If you
are nearby and she is screaming at night, one of two things is
most likely happening (assuming she's not sick): she's hungry
or she just wants to play with you. The ultimate solution to
the former is more food during the day. You can work that issue
on the positive side (trying to get more in during the day), the
negative side (refusing to further the habit of eating at night
so she'll be hungrier during the day), or both. If she wants play
time (whether that's active play time or cuddle time), you cannot
afford to feed that habit if you want any of you to get a good
night's sleep. Some kids are very flexible, but it sounds like
your daughter is much more determined than that, so if you give
in once, that's good for a month's worth of effort to break the
habit again.
You've also got the added wrinkle of wanting to change
the habit of having her sleep with you. That will also require
a change process.
So, you've got three habits to change. Often it's easier
to change a habit by substituting something else for it, rather
than just eliminating it. I'd pick one habit at a time to change
rather than trying to do them all at once. If I felt I needed to
do it all at once, I'd do something radical like go on vacation
somewhere, have a day or two where you *totally* mess up the
schedule, and then take several more days to settle into the
schedule you want, and then try to transition the new schedule
home. That can be tough to arrange, though.
To change the co-sleeping, you may have to make a big
hairy deal out of it. Can you move the crib, change the bedding,
change something about your bed, and then consistently start using
the crib? Develop some new ritual.
To change the night eating, you'll have to decide whether
to work it from the day side, the night side, or both and then be
consistent about it. Enlist help from daycare if you're working
the day side and see if they can get more food into her. If it
takes offering favorite foods to do that, go with it. A little
while of a less than ideal diet isn't going to kill her, though
you'll have some recovering to do on that front afterwards.
To change the play time, I think you're only option is
to completely refuse to give in unless she's sick or something.
If she's in the crib, you can rub or pat her back or something,
but don't pick her up or take her out of the crib. She will
likely pitch a huge fit over this, but the thing to keep in
mind is that you're right there when she's doing it. She's not
hungry (either deal with the food issue before attempting to
deal with the play issue, or feed her before trying to resettle
her), she's not in pain or anything like that, so this is just
the two of you having a disagreement over appropriate nighttime
activities. She can pitch a tantrum over that. If you're there
patting her back or whatever, she's clearly not scared or anything
like that. This is a simple clashing of wills. Sounds like you've
been blessed with one of those kids who are very strong willed.
That has its benefits, but you can't afford to be a pushover.
You can be judicious about the things you take a stand on, but
you can't fold on the things that are important or you do her
a terrific disservice. It is very hard on strong-willed children
to have weak willed parents. It forces them to shoulder the
responsibility for making decisions too early because they know
they can browbeat you into caving. It makes the world a much
scarier place because they don't know that they can count on you
to keep them safe.
Now, the tricky bit with this is that especially with
some strong-willed children, having you standing there patting her
on the back may actually prolong the crying because it keeps giving
her hope that you'll cave. That's something you just have to decide
for yourself. I know it's awful to walk away with them crying,
but it's also awful to stand there with them crying. And, of
course, it's awful to continue a habit that's detrimental to
both of you. No easy answers. Personally, I'd likely tackle this
issue last and hope tackling the others magically solves it ;-)
The other thing that may be a factor is that she might
be trying to get her Mommy time at night since you're at work
during the day. That can make it hard to make a commitment to
insisting on no play/cuddle time at night because of all the
feelings involved with that. However, if you think that's part
of the issue, then maybe you need to look at ways to address it.
Could you jiggle schedules in such a way as to allow a little
extra Mommy time somewhere else? Could you stop by for lunch at
daycare? Could you do something different in the mornings? Could
you make some of the evening Mommy time more salient somehow?
I have some very stubborn kids, but they pretty much
slept in their cribs (which I think was lucky in hindsight,
given what I know of them now). We did have the nighttime
hunger issue until around 15 months, and mostly worked it from
the day side. When I tried to work it from the night side at
around 12 months with #1, it was an unmitigated disaster, but
it did convince me that it really was hunger. We scheduled the
night feeding at a more convenient time (woke him right before
I went to bed with occasional tests to see if he was ready to
go without) and the wakings to eat went away on their own around
15 months. With #3 we would have occasional nights where she
wanted to get up and play. For her, I found that it was better
for me to leave her and come back periodically to resettle than
to stay; however, these were infrequent and she was starting from
a base of sleeping in her crib and sleeping through the night most
nights, so the tantrums didn't go on as long and it didn't usually
take more than one night to get back on track.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Penny Gaines
[snip]
> Our consistent sleep place is our bed, and that's what I'd like to
> change to the crib, but the crib is in our room. SO it's like teasing
> her - we're there but she can't lay on top of us.
>> Keep child in crib when he wakes, do not remove to my bed
>
> Well, since she's always co-slept, the whole transition to crib will
> be an issue.
>
Personally I wouldn't bother with a crib any more, I'd get her her own
bed. If you are worried she'd fall out, you could either put cushions
next to it, or have a very low one, possiby just a matress on the floor.
--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three
cjra
> cjra wrote:
> > The nursing to sleep is an issue. How does one stop this? When I don't
> > nurse her to sleep, she just cries and cries. That said, when I'm not
> > here, DH is able to get her to sleep. But if she knows I'm in the
> > house, she won't stop til she has me.
>
> You may need to absent yourself at every bedtime for
> a while.
I think DH is getting softer though, so he's not helping! He used to
be more consistent with her, but lack of sleep is weaing him down too.
> > Our consistent sleep place is our bed, and that's what I'd like to
> > change to the crib, but the crib is in our room. SO it's like teasing
> > her - we're there but she can't lay on top of us.
>
> Any chance of expediting completion of her room?
Not unless we win the lottery and can pay someone to do it. We
scheduled out every weekend based on what needs to be done, and came
up with a September end date. No other rooms are 'complete' except our
bedroom.
Just for the record, things we need to do:
4 windows:
1. Remove lead paint from casing, strip windows (stripping to be done
off-site)
2. Sand, paint casing
(1&2 have to be done when she's out of the house)
3. re-glaze 4 windows (each double hung) and paint
4. frames: strip (done off-site), sand and stain, then rehang
4. Rehang with weights
2 doors, which include transom windows
1. strip, sand, paint
2. rehang
walls:
tape and float, sand, paint
floor:
complete stripping of linoleum (most is off, but there's a
particularly stubborn part)
lay new flooring
Having done one room almost completely, and about 90% of the kitchen,
we have a good idea of how long each task takes.
Rosalie B.
walls) who came home from the second shift and put his car in the
garage. The garages were in the basement and had overhead doors, and
when the garage doors went up and down, you could hear them through
the walls. I formed the habit of bringing her back to bed with me
when that happened because I didn't want her crying to wake up the
neighbors (my own children would sleep through). She was 8-14 months
at the time.
I've been following this along, but don't really have much advice
because although I bf all four of mine, I almost never co-slept (with
the exception above) and I was a SAHM.
My mom advised me never to have the children sleep in the room with me
because I would not get any sleep. She said that often if the
children woke up, they'd go back to sleep if nobody went in and it was
dark etc. She said to let them fuss for a couple of minutes first.
Maybe as a result of that, mine slept through the night relatively
early - well before a year.
Thinking back on what people have said --
I agree with Erika and Sue - your child has got your number and she is
NOT going to go to her crib and sleep through the night without a
determined and protracted struggle to keep things the way she wants
them.
If you or she is sick, then it is going to set the program back a
little bit, but you don't have to give up on it because you feel sorry
for her.
Erika wrote
>I do also believe there are some personalities that will take you for a ride if you are not willing to be firm....
>Your daughter is not an infant anymore, so you are not dealing with infant issues and needs, so you should not frame them that way to yourself.
> I think you have to make some distinctions here. If you are nearby and she is screaming at night, one of two things is most likely happening (assuming she's not sick): she's hungry or she just wants to play with you....
>If she wants play time (whether that's active play time or cuddle time), you cannot afford to feed that habit if you want any of you to get a good night's sleep. Some kids are very flexible, but it sounds like your daughter is much more determined than that, so if you give in once, that's good for a month's worth of effort to break the habit again.
So - I think you are going to have to bite the bullet. Either have
her sleep with you and let your dh get his sleep in another room (I
don't remember whether this has been mentioned and rejected as a
solution), or just put her firmly in the crib and let her CIO.
I also think the bath time needs to be at a different time in the day.
If I didn't get home until 6, I'd feed her (and maybe feed her in the
car before you get home or stop somewhere to feed her), and put her
straight to bed before you and your dh eat. If everyone went to bed
earlier, then maybe you could get up earlier and do the bath then.
cjra
>
> I've been following this along, but don't really have much advice
> because although I bf all four of mine, I almost never co-slept (with
> the exception above) and I was a SAHM.
>
> My mom advised me never to have the children sleep in the room with me
> because I would not get any sleep. She said that often if the
> children woke up, they'd go back to sleep if nobody went in and it was
> dark etc. She said to let them fuss for a couple of minutes first.
> Maybe as a result of that, mine slept through the night relatively
> early - well before a year.
See, co-sleeping was a life saver the first year. She always fell back
to sleep right away and I slept fine. I'm not sure if she would have
slept better in a crib or not. I never slept well as a child even
though my mom had the same advice as yours. Co-sleeping was the only
way I could deal with the night feedings and still make it to work the
next day. She also reverse cycled as soon as I went back to work.
It was around 14 months or so that it wasn't working as well.
>
> Thinking back on what people have said --
>
> I agree with Erika and Sue - your child has got your number and she is
> NOT going to go to her crib and sleep through the night without a
> determined and protracted struggle to keep things the way she wants
> them.
Yeah, I'm sure of that. I'm much more of a softy than I expected to
be.
> So - I think you are going to have to bite the bullet. Either have
> her sleep with you and let your dh get his sleep in another room (I
> don't remember whether this has been mentioned and rejected as a
> solution), or just put her firmly in the crib and let her CIO.
The problem here is DH. he claims he doesn't sleep well in the other
bed (it hurts his back) and every time I bring it up (like daily) he
says No, he'll manage (but he has a hard time with it...). Until he
took over night duty, he always slept through her wakings just fine.
He never knew how many times she woke up. Last night I actually slept
through for a change, and I thought she didn't wake at all...hah. He
told me no, she woke up just past midnight, and another 2 times at
least after that. She had been put to sleep in the crib, and at one
waking he left her to fall back to sleep, but the next one he went to
her and she handed him her pillow and blanket and he couldn't resist
so brought her to bed.
> I also think the bath time needs to be at a different time in the day.
> If I didn't get home until 6, I'd feed her (and maybe feed her in the
> car before you get home or stop somewhere to feed her), and put her
> straight to bed before you and your dh eat. If everyone went to bed
> earlier, then maybe you could get up earlier and do the bath then.
This isn't a solution for us. It's only 15 mins or so commute home
from daycare, not worth stopping and as it is she refuses to eat
anyway more than 1/2 the time. I've noticed ont he few nights she's
awake later, she's hungry later. I've also tried putting her straight
to bed when we get home and it doesn't fly. She has no desire to sleep
at that time. Last night we didn't have a meltdown for a change.
I'm actually wondering if she's eating too much at daycare. I send her
b'fast, snack and lunch, and the babysitter feeds her whatever the
other kids are eating. I've considered not sending anything and let
her eat only what she has there, but I supply more 'healthy' stuff so
I want her to at least have that stuff first. So I think at 5-6pm
she's not that hungry, but it kicks in later.
DH and I already gets up at 5am (he goes tobed at 9pm) and I get up by
6am, I really don't *want* to push that any earlier, frankly.
cjra
> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Aha! You mean the "Dream Feed"? Yes, I used to do that about 10pm in
the first 4 months or so. Then she started waking up like clockwork at
10pm and I was convinced it was because I got her used to eating at
that time and swore never to do that again. I finally broke her of
that habit. I honestly am not willing to try that one again at this
age, I fear she'll get so used to it she'll be hungry at that hour. I
don't think it's hunger waking her but habit.
> In regards to the 6pm meltdowns, it kinda sounds like Jessica when it all
> gets too much for her. You might find she's tired *and* hungry, and
> therefore unhappy too. If dinner's going to be later than madam would like,
> I give her something little in the car like a roll or some fruit. It
> occupies her while she's waiting, takes the edge off her hunger and gives
> her a little energy boost.
I think the problem is that she's not hungry. For a long time DH would
give her a snack in the car on the way home, then she wouldn't eat at
all. As it is it seems 6pm is sometimes too early for her to eat (but
on the odd nights she's up much later, she's all happy to eat at 8pm -
I think she's a European baby with these late dinners ;-)).
She gets offered food now as soon as we walk in the door and she's not
interested.
> How much does she sleep duing the day? I tried cutting Jessie's naps out in
> the day, but she just wasn't ready for that, and if she doesn't sleep at
> all, she's pretty evil by 7pm. I try to get her to nap for about an hour
> after lunch and then gently wake her up. If she's desperate to stay asleep,
> I let her have an another half an hour or so. Her bed time hasn't changed
> since she was born, and she's always grateful to go to bed when we take her,
> and impatient if the milk/pyjamas etc aren't ready!
At daycare she sleeps ~1.5 hours. She stopped a morning nap at about 9
months as she wouldn't sleep when the older kids were up. I've told
the babysitter to let her sleep as long as she needs, but she's
usually ready to get up when the other kids do.
> Heh... It looks like we just sleep and eat here!! She does munch a lot
> during the day, but the snacks are little, and I normally keep packets of
> raisins in my handbag so that she can have them while we're out. If she's
> hungry, her energy levels drop, and we get (extra) tantrums :) All I need to
> do now is to get her to stop screaming when I put reins on her!
There are some weekends it seems that's all we *try* to do and not
succeed. She began throwing tantrums recently with the high chair,
refusing to sit in it (I think the time out at daycare was in a high
chair and since then, at least at home, she sees it as a torture
chamber...). However we've let her scream and now she only resists for
a minute, down from 30 minutes.
cjra
> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:57491199-294c-405f...@n36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> I really don't like the concept of CIO. The couple of times I've let
> her cry have been out of sheer desperation. It's hard for me to do it
> in a planned manner, although I'm getting there. I'd prefer to find
> something gentler. I really don't care about everyone else telling me
> she should be STTN by now. Until recently I was tolerating it ok, but
> it's really taking its toll on both DH and myself and I think her too.
>
> I understand. Two more thoughts.....
>
> I would really not worry about her needing food at night. She might eat a
> lot when nursed but unless she has a weight gain issue she will be fine.
She was off the bottom of the charts in weight until recently, so I
was worried. Although her doc wasn't particularly concerned. She had
been 50% through one year so it made me nervous. In the last month
she's gained and is back on the charts, so I'm less concerned now.
> Kids this age will have days when they eat hardly anything. It just works
> that way. She'll eat a big breakfast if she's hungry. I also give my boys
> smoothies before bed. I make them with yogurt, whole milk, banana, berries.
> It is quite filling I think.
Yeah, she LOVES yoghurt so we've been having those before bed, I also
mix with cereal. I was hoping it was filling, but she's still waking
so that's why I think it's not always hunger but habit now.
> They have sort of quit eating them of their
> own accord but that has only been recently. Oh - if the bed is low to the
> ground I wouldn't be overly worried about her on that either. Each of my
> big kids only fell off a bed once.
Maybe we'll take the arms off the crib and try that.
> I have to be honest and say I don't see a way to get a 95% co-sleeping
> toddler that night nurses on occasion to move to a crib on her own without
> some serious crying. I'd either bite the bullet and let the crying commence
> and stick with it for 5-7 days before throwing in the towel or figure out a
> way to make co-sleeping work better for all.
I was hoping to try other options first. Tonight I'm going to
rearrange furniture and put the crib next to the bed and see if I can
get her back to sleep without getting her out of it.
> You might consider taking a hard line at the night weaning while going back
> to all sleeping together again. There will probably be crying involved but
> IME it is different to have her crying next to you because she is mad you've
> changed the plan then it is crying totally confused in a crib. It will also
> probably be much less intense. You can refuse to nurse and say - 'We only
> nurse when the sun is shining' or 'only in our rocking chair' and then just
> lay there and let her work through it.
Well, to be honest she doesn't nurse every night. For a long time she
wasn't at all, just before bed then about 6-7am when she woke up.
Since that stopped working we've not been consistent. I try to see
what kind of cry it is - if it's just 'i'm awake and mad' cry I've not
nursed her, but then there are other "I'm so desperate/sick/hungry'
cry and I have... DH wasn't entirely sticking with the program though.
When I was unavailable a few times he started giving her milk during
those wake ups because it put her back to sleep. I've convinced him
now to stop that.
Last night for example I didn't nurse her at all, but she did wake up
a number of times.
If you don't do anything more then
> say a few gentle words and lay your hand on her back to comfort her I think
> she'll quit the midnight party behavior and go back to sleep in a fairly
> timely way, without many antics. It was easy for me to lay there and ignore
> because I was so flipp'n tired, lol. After the initial shock even though
> he woke a couple times a night asking to nurse it was just a blip - didn't
> really mess with my sleep much because I'd just say no and he'd go back to
> sleep. My issue was that they would not sleep without me in the bed with
> them.
I hear ya loud and clear. She "needs" to be touching someone. When
it's just DH, she's almost on top of him - and she's been like that
since she came home from NICU at 3 weeks. We couldn't even touch her
the first week of her life, and didn't hold her til she was 10 days
old, so in those first months we held her as much as she needed us
too, figuring she'd grow out of it as time passed. She hasn't. I've
tried giving her stuffed animals or a blanket to hold onto and she
knows the difference. She wants a warm body!
> I also learned that I had to promise myself to stick with something for x
> amount of time - like I'd suggest at least two weeks for the above scenario.
> Changes happen fast for some kids but 3 of mine were a little more stubborn
> and needed much longer to accept a new plan.
I think that's what we need to do, and I need to get DH on the same
page. Devise a plan and a timeline and stick to it, then re-evaluate
when the time's up. I think we've gotten so desperate that we do just
whatever we can to get through the night now, which isn't a solution.
cjra
> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > Apart from the fact I'd like my bed back, I'd like to get her to
> > sleep! We do put her in a crib which is in our room, but to do that we
> > have to let her cry. Usually that only takes a few minutes, but it's
> > not something I'd like to do. Is that going to be our last resort now
> > for the 4am wakeup?
>
> In my opinion, you are waffling on what you want to do and confusing her by
> sometimes having her in the crib and sometimes in the bed with you. Pick one
> and stick to it and really stick to it and be consistent.
Yeah, I think you are right there. Now we have to decide which option
to try first. I think first up is putting the crib next to the bed and
just touching her but not picking her up. We'll try that for a week
and see where we are then.
If there is one
> thing I have learned about parenting, is that you have to be consistent with
> whatever you decide to do. I have read it takes 21 days to change or break a
> habit, so you might want to take that in consideration. Also, you may have
> to have your husband handle all the night wakings and putting her to bed
> until she gets used to sleeping through the night
He has been for the most part for many months now (except when he was
out of town), but I still wake up.
(which honestly, I do
> think she should be able to do this by now. I think it is a habit and
> because you are waffling, she is picking up on that). You have gotten some
> good advice and its seems that anything anyone is suggesting, you are coming
> up with excuses for why it won't work, house isn't set up right, she doesn't
> have a room, etc.
I was waiting for someone to say that ;-)
Honestly, I didn't write every single thing we'd already tried or
considered because that would be a ridiculously long post. Perhaps I
should have.
> Put her crib in another room and be done with it.
Simply put, we do NOT have another room to put her in at this time.
The room I sleep in is in the middle of the house with no doors, so
can not be closed off. We are working on a room for her, but it'll be
some months before it's done (see my response to Erika).
I think
> she needs to go to bed earlier because it sounds like she is getting
> overtired and by that time, you won't be able to settle her. Just my humble
> opinion, take it for what its worth.
Problem isn't so much getting her to sleep, although some nights
that's problematic, most nights she falls to sleep ok. It's the waking
after midnight. I do think she's not getting enough sleep overall, but
that's because she's taking 'naps' at night.
One problem, and I've addressed this with DH, is that sometimes he
gets her excited at night claiming it'll wear her out. I think I've
finally convinced him it's the opposite - esp as he's the one who
suffers most. I do think the bath is part of the problem too, as she
sees that as play time and gets very excited, so instead of its
calming effect it's the opposite. It had been part of our bedtime
routine but clearly is not working. I may try to move that to right
when we get home before dinner (although if she makes a huge mess at
dinner, it's easier to clean her in the bath) and see if that helps. I
think she does need some more wind down time after dinner tho.
Rosalie B.
How about switching the beds? So he's in the bed that he likes but in
another room.
OK - then offer her food when you get home and if she doesn't want to
eat, give her the bath then, and eat afterwards. Maybe a later
bedtime will be the thing. Experiment.
Although I found that counter-intuitively- if I put dd#2 to bed later
than normal, that she woke up earlier than normal. So if she went
down at her normal bedtime at 7, she'd sleep through until 7 the next
morning. (This was when she was a baby.) But if she didn't get to
bed until 8 pm, she'd be up at 6 am or earlier.
I also used to not go in right away in the morning. I'd hear her in
there playing in her crib for a bit before everyone had to be up.
cjra
> >The problem here is DH. he claims he doesn't sleep well in the other
> >bed (it hurts his back) and every time I bring it up (like daily) he
>
> How about switching the beds? So he's in the bed that he likes but in
> another room.
Oh I've considered this many times. This will be experiment #2, after
I try with her in the crib next to the bed for awhile. Moving it is a
major PITA, so I've been hesitant (it's large and awkward with the
door frames). Worth it if it helps, but I'll wait to see if the first
attempt has some success.
> OK - then offer her food when you get home and if she doesn't want to
> eat, give her the bath then, and eat afterwards. Maybe a later
> bedtime will be the thing. Experiment.
That's my plan starting tonight!
As I said elsewhere, for awhile DH was giving her a snack in the car
on the way home - it kept her from screaming all the way home...she
has never ever tolerated driving :(. I don't think it was hunger so
much as keeping her occupied. In any case, I thought that was making
her less hungry so not eating dinner, so we tried stopping that. She's
still not eating many days.
> Although I found that counter-intuitively- if I put dd#2 to bed later
> than normal, that she woke up earlier than normal. So if she went
> down at her normal bedtime at 7, she'd sleep through until 7 the next
> morning. (This was when she was a baby.) But if she didn't get to
> bed until 8 pm, she'd be up at 6 am or earlier.
this is definitely true. Those nights she falls asleep later she's
always up earlier. We try to keep it as consistent as possible.
lu-lu
I don't know if your DD's up for a change, but I recently bought Jessica
alittle table and chair. I guess you guys have the same thing over there -
it's one of the plastic ones that looks like mini garden furniture. She's a
real girlie-girl, so I found one in pink and she loves it. I make sure she
sits when she eats anything at all, and so even when I make her toast in the
mornings, she gets the plate, runs to her "big girl" table and sits really
nicely. I bought her some little cutlery too, and she's doing really well
with it now. Like A, she was really screaming with the high chair, but she's
finding eating at her table her real pleasure. We've been doing that for a
couple of months now.
Hope this helps
Lucy x
cjra
> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Hmmm, she does have a little chair, and she has plenty of cutlery
(although she always wants the big stuff), but no table. I'm not sure
she'd like it because she's not on the same level as us.
She was fine with the high chair until about 6 weeks ago. But she's
starting to calm down about it. Yoghurt is her favourite and she's
learning she doesn't get it unless she's seated in the high chair. I
don't like using food as a weapon though, but she's accepted it for
the most part.
Ericka Kammerer
> On Mar 13, 11:48 am, Rosalie B. <gmbeas...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> I agree with Erika and Sue - your child has got your number and she is
>> NOT going to go to her crib and sleep through the night without a
>> determined and protracted struggle to keep things the way she wants
>> them.
>
> Yeah, I'm sure of that. I'm much more of a softy than I expected to
> be.
Sometimes it's not about being "soft" but about the child
moving on to a different developmental stage and the parent taking
a little extra time to clue in that behavior that used to be
appropriate is no longer so. Those darned kids are a moving target!
Just when you think you've got a stage figured out, they move on
to something new and you're left scratching your head and wondering
why the old tricks don't work anymore! ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Anne Rogers
> Not unless we win the lottery and can pay someone to do it. We
> scheduled out every weekend based on what needs to be done, and came
> up with a September end date. No other rooms are 'complete' except our
> bedroom.
I think you're stuck between a rock and a hard place here, I honestly
think that to both continue nursing and cosleeping and also sleep
through the night is a VERY hard task, something that I cannot recall a
single person I've come across having done it (that could be because if
it was easy and not a problem it doesn't get mentioned). I know plenty
of people who nursed toddlers and had them sleeping through the night in
a separate room and I also know of non nursing cosleeping though the
night toddlers - I've had one of each myself!
So this is where you have to get creative, is there anyway at all you
can create a space for her - even if it means moving something every
night all a room has to be is a space where you can put a crib that is
not within reach of anything that can do her harm, which mean placing
something in the middle of an otherwise empty and undecorated room is an
option - it's what my parents do at their house, they have a room with
shelving all around the walls and precious things on them, it's a small
room, but a crib in the middle is far enough from everything. I had
friends who's baby slept in the kitchen, they moved the crib from the
hall to the kitchen every single night and every nap, it was a pain but
their kid had a normal or even better than normal sleep routine at every
age.
It may feel like you can only survive so long, but believe me, you do
survive, it's not fun, but you do.
Anne
Anne Rogers
> See, that seems a bit wonky to me. If she's well into
> a routine, I just wouldn't expect to see that much variation in
> how long it takes her to get to sleep. I'm not sure if that's
> being overtired, being overstimulated, having you nearby, or
> what.
you'd better come to our house then! seriously, we are fairly habitual
in the day time at the moment, sometimes DD makes a fuss and naps late,
I'll warn DH it might make her slow to sleep at bedtime and it will make
no difference and other times despite wake up, food and nap all being on
the normal schedule, she can fail to fall asleep by upto 2 hours,
luckily the vast majority of her failure to fall asleep is done without
a fuss. DS is similar, he's past the stage of daytime naps, but he still
from time to time doesn't fall asleep, he's wired a bit differently
and this will then muck his wake up time the next morning, whereas DD
wakes up fairly consistently at the same time. So it doesn't sound
particularly wonky from where I'm standing.
Anne
cjra
>
> So this is where you have to get creative, is there anyway at all you
> can create a space for her - even if it means moving something every
> night all a room has to be is a space where you can put a crib that is
> not within reach of anything that can do her harm, which mean placing
> something in the middle of an otherwise empty and undecorated room is an
> option - it's what my parents do at their house, they have a room with
> shelving all around the walls and precious things on them, it's a small
> room, but a crib in the middle is far enough from everything. I had
> friends who's baby slept in the kitchen, they moved the crib from the
> hall to the kitchen every single night and every nap, it was a pain but
> their kid had a normal or even better than normal sleep routine at every
> age.
Our problem is lack of doors - all the doors have been removed and
sent of for stripping (lead paint removal), . So without doors,
there's no way to make the area quiet for her to sleep and still have
us do anything else in the house. That's why I don' t put her in the
room I've been using. There are only two other rooms which *can* be
closed off and are otherwise safe, we don't have *that* many rooms in
the house to begin with. Well, there is the bathroom but I'd rather
not put her to sleep in there....
If the next few options don't work we'll consider re-arranging beds
and closing off a room somehow. I'm trying to do this without totally
re-structuring the house, if at all possible.
Anne Rogers
> Yeah, I think you are right there. Now we have to decide which option
> to try first. I think first up is putting the crib next to the bed and
> just touching her but not picking her up. We'll try that for a week
> and see where we are then.
I must have seen the same info as Sue, it does take a long time to form
a habit. For ages, I didn't really believe this, they say a similar
thing about new foods, it takes umpteen times of it being on the plate
for children to try something. Given I'd be making the different meal
components anyway, I kept dumping them on the plate, it was no skin off
my nose, now, there are still a whole heap of things DS doesn't like,
but also lots of things that he now does eat when previously he didn't,
the 21 days to make a habit comes from similar sources, so I've no
reason to disbelieve it. Which means you have to make a smart choice as
to which option to try and then really do it, 100% for at least 3 weeks,
not just one. It's quite clear from all you've said that she's a
sensitive child, I just don't think she is going to be one that gets it
in a few days and not getting it after a week doesn't mean it's doomed
to failure, it may even teach her the opposite, don't underestimate the
possibility she has the ability to figure out that if she fussy for a
week you'll give in. If you decide you aren't going to night nurse then
stick to it, giving in after half an hour is worse than doing it at the
moment of waking - we had night weaned DD, but when we travelled or she
was sick, I gave myself permission to nurse at the moment of waking and
it seemed to work.
Habit forming is HARD WORK. I was lucky with DD, she was a text book
baby, we had great nap habits with no problem, until we switched to a
bed. I determined that I was not going to give in, I saw no evidence she
was ready to not nap and it really did take sheer bloody mindedness from
me that she was going to do it and she was going to do it when I said
she did it and how I said she did it. Some afternoons I put her back in
bed 20+ times over up to about 2 hours time, it meant her nap was
sometimes very late and doing that every afternoon for a couple of weeks
was hard work, but it was worth it, it was August that I did that and
she's still napping every afternoon and rarely to I have to take her
back to her room (we had one day last week where we were back in double
figures, but it seems to have been a one off). I was nowhere near so
strong minded with DS and we never got anywhere near the reliability I
have with DD, I viewed things in to short a time frame, each day it was
easier to not have that fight and do something else, even now, that day
last week, it would have been easier to give in and it did give me a
back ache carrying her that many times - sometimes she was very quiet
and managed to get downstairs before I noticed, mostly I'm on the same
floor and hear the click of the door and get her right back in.
Cheers
Anne
lu-lu
room she's in at the moment, and your DH sleep in the room you're in (with
you)?
Lucy x
cjra
> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I've been trying to convince him of that. He's resisted for a variety
of reasons, not least of which he hates the bed and though moving it
is possible, it's a PITA so I was just hoping to find another solution
before we went that route. We may do that soon.
btw - it's not that I'm making excuses, it's just that I'm trying to
not do a bunch of different things that require substantial effort and
lifestyle change in the hope that _one_ works. Many things we have
tried, and now I'll just take it one by one and see how it goes.
Rosalie B.
>On Mar 13, 4:13 pm, Anne Rogers <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> So this is where you have to get creative, is there anyway at all you
>> can create a space for her - even if it means moving something every
>> night all a room has to be is a space where you can put a crib that is
>> not within reach of anything that can do her harm, which mean placing
>> something in the middle of an otherwise empty and undecorated room is an
>> option - it's what my parents do at their house, they have a room with
>> shelving all around the walls and precious things on them, it's a small
>> room, but a crib in the middle is far enough from everything. I had
>> friends who's baby slept in the kitchen, they moved the crib from the
>> hall to the kitchen every single night and every nap, it was a pain but
>> their kid had a normal or even better than normal sleep routine at every
>> age.
>
>Our problem is lack of doors - all the doors have been removed and
>sent of for stripping (lead paint removal), . So without doors,
Why does the area have to be quiet? One of the other things that my
mom told me was not to tiptoe around when the baby was asleep because
then she would wake at every noise. Whereas when you are running the
vacuum or dishwasher or whatever, or if she had siblings playing
around, she'd get used to some noise. Is it that quiet at the daycare
when she takes her nap?
Really it is better to do this - otherwise every time you go on a trip
she won't sleep.
MarieD
news:s6ejt3lj1scn94ack...@4ax.com...
> Why does the area have to be quiet? One of the other things that my
> mom told me was not to tiptoe around when the baby was asleep because
> then she would wake at every noise. Whereas when you are running the
> vacuum or dishwasher or whatever, or if she had siblings playing
> around, she'd get used to some noise. Is it that quiet at the daycare
> when she takes her nap?
There are babies who will not sleep through normal noises. My first two
babies slept through everything, but my youngest did not. She can't sleep in
total silence, either. She sleeps with a fan. When she was a baby, if we
were not silent, she would not sleep. She was already a horrible sleeper,
and because I knew you weren't supposed to be quiet when babies were
sleeping it was quite awhile before we tried being really quiet during her
napping. It did help somewhat. I can't sleep through things, either. The
husband, he can sleep through absolutely anything. Really.
Marie
Nikki
"lu-lu" <l...@lululu.com> wrote in message
news:GtmdnRdgtoCW5ETa...@bt.com...
> I don't know if your DD's up for a change, but I recently bought Jessica
> alittle table and chair. I guess you guys have the same thing over there -
> it's one of the plastic ones that looks like mini garden furniture. She's
> a
> real girlie-girl, so I found one in pink and she loves it.
My boys use the little tables as jungle gyms mainly but Ben was always mad
at his highchair. They have been at boosters at the regular table for
some time now. She's at an age to try that out if the she decides she is
anti-highchair again.
--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06
Nikki
> This isn't a solution for us. It's only 15 mins or so commute home
> from daycare, not worth stopping and as it is she refuses to eat
> anyway more than 1/2 the time. I've noticed ont he few nights she's
> awake later, she's hungry later. I've also tried putting her straight
> to bed when we get home and it doesn't fly. She has no desire to sleep
> at that time. Last night we didn't have a meltdown for a change.
> I'm actually wondering if she's eating too much at daycare. I send her
> b'fast, snack and lunch, and the babysitter feeds her whatever the
> other kids are eating. I've considered not sending anything and let
> her eat only what she has there, but I supply more 'healthy' stuff so
> I want her to at least have that stuff first. So I think at 5-6pm
> she's not that hungry, but it kicks in later.
The witching hour is very common, especially with kids that go to daycare.
Ben is sometimes a fright at that time of day and he doesn't even go to
daycare. He is high strung and when he tips over the edge he just can't
eat - no matter if he was hungry. Then he is crying because he's unhappy,
because he's hungry, mad at his chair, he doesn't know what he wants. I've
had to just let him work it out for the most part because I have other kids
to feed but if you think this might be something you are dealing with you
might consider just coming home and doing nothing. Put a few finger snacks
(like peas, cheese, or other healthy things) down and then just sitting with
her. Sort of try to make that witching hour more calm. It might not work,
or might not be the issue - just throwing it out there.
Anne Rogers
I think it's one of those things that in an ideal world would be fine.
But we live in the real world, there is both the individual level of
sensitivity and the fact that we know that sleep goes in cycles. There
is also the sense of a physical barrier, in a room open and close to the
rest of the house, there will be awareness of parental activities that
the child may want to be involved in. Shutting a door is more than just
blocking out sound - we've had a few issues here, DS and DD share, DD is
younger and closing the door seems to be very symbolic to her, she knows
that means you stay in bed. For a while DS struggled with the dark and
wanted the door open, which would mean DD wouldn't stay in bed, even if
she didn't come out of the room, the door was a symbolic barrier between
staying in bed and going to sleep and getting out and playing.
Anne
Nikki
I do think the bath is part of the problem too, as she
> sees that as play time and gets very excited, so instead of its
> calming effect it's the opposite. It had been part of our bedtime
> routine but clearly is not working. I may try to move that to right
> when we get home before dinner
I think that sounds like a really good idea.
MarieD
news:ed8745b5-89bc-4da2...@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> sees that as play time and gets very excited, so instead of its
> calming effect it's the opposite. It had been part of our bedtime
> routine but clearly is not working.
That's how it was for us, too. I always wondered where all the kids were who
became relaxed from taking a bath!
>I may try to move that to right
> when we get home before dinner (although if she makes a huge mess at
> dinner, it's easier to clean her in the bath) and see if that helps. I
> think she does need some more wind down time after dinner tho.
I know it's hard to not play with her after you've been working and haven't
seen her all day!
Have you tried a fan in the room while she's sleeping? Since the noise is
constant and soothing, *maybe* if she woke in the night it would let her
drift back down into sleep without fully waking up. Alot of people can't
sleep with total silence (I hear this constant high-pitched noise if music
or a fan is not on). Of course you many have already tried it, I haven't
read all the posts. Other than that I can't think of anything else to try.
Good luck!
Marie
MarieD
news:1c83cd17-9180-4d80...@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> My 2-y/o loves to hit his Ocean Wonders
>mobile button, and he has done so since before the age of 1 actually.
>I hear it playing sometimes 4 or 5 times a night on the baby monitor,
>but he is obviously able to comfort himself back to sleep with either
>the music or the light.
I always loved to hear the babies/toddlers playing before they fall back to
sleep!! It feels like such a magical time for me, sweet and private, to hear
them singing or laughing in the bed. My husband and I used to sit at the
kid's bedroom door and listen for so long. Now we live in a 2-story home and
the kids are all upstairs, but sometimes I can hear the 5 year old singing
before she falls asleep. It's so lovely!
Marie
MarieD
>The nursing to sleep is an issue. How does one stop this? When I don't
>nurse her to sleep, she just cries and cries. That said, when I'm not
>here, DH is able to get her to sleep. But if she knows I'm in the
>house, she won't stop til she has me.
I experienced that with my own family. My youngest grew out of nursing to
sleep, but would nurse a few minutes before bedtime until she was almost 5.
If I was away from home though, my husband had no trouble and she'd even
fall asleep while they were rocking (I rocked all of my children before bed
when they were little)
>Well, since she's always co-slept, the whole transition to crib will
>be an issue.
Just so you know- co-sleeping isn't always the cause of sleeping problems.
Alot of people seem to blame co-sleeping, but many babies who have only
slept in cribs have sleep problems also. My youngest wouldn't sleep alone or
with us, she just didn't sleep more than 2 hours at a time until she hit
about 14 months. Just wanted to reassure you. I've known many co-sleepers,
and I haven't known any teenagers who can't sleep alone :o)
>We already decided that when we get to that stage, we're going to bang
>pots in her room as payback ;-)
My oldest is almost 13, and I sometimes throw her stuffed animals at her
until she gets up.
The older kids can be helpful if they happen to wake up before me; they will
get the little one breakfast and let me sleep. But that's rare these days
lol.
Marie
cjra
> cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Our problem is lack of doors - all the doors have been removed and
> >sent of for stripping (lead paint removal), . So without doors,
>
> Why does the area have to be quiet?
Lights on, tv (sometimes), computer etc. all within a few feet of her?
Maybe your child can fall asleep with that, mine has never been able
to. All the usual 'house' noises. Frankly I don't expect anyone to be
able to sleep through all that. Perfectly silent? no, but constant
stimulation in the form of lights, talking etc, she can't handle that.
>One of the other things that my
> mom told me was not to tiptoe around when the baby was asleep because
> then she would wake at every noise. Whereas when you are running the
> vacuum or dishwasher or whatever, or if she had siblings playing
> around, she'd get used to some noise. Is it that quiet at the daycare
> when she takes her nap?
Yes, it's an in-home daycare and all the kids nap at the same time.
> Really it is better to do this - otherwise every time you go on a trip
> she won't sleep.
Oddly enough, as we've travelled with her a lot, she sleeps well on
the road.
cjra
> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0a75911f-03ca-4c3c...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >The nursing to sleep is an issue. How does one stop this? When I don't
> >nurse her to sleep, she just cries and cries. That said, when I'm not
> >here, DH is able to get her to sleep. But if she knows I'm in the
> >house, she won't stop til she has me.
>
> I experienced that with my own family. My youngest grew out of nursing to
> sleep, but would nurse a few minutes before bedtime until she was almost 5.
> If I was away from home though, my husband had no trouble and she'd even
> fall asleep while they were rocking (I rocked all of my children before bed
> when they were little)
>
> >Well, since she's always co-slept, the whole transition to crib will
> >be an issue.
>
> Just so you know- co-sleeping isn't always the cause of sleeping problems.
> Alot of people seem to blame co-sleeping, but many babies who have only
> slept in cribs have sleep problems also. My youngest wouldn't sleep alone or
> with us, she just didn't sleep more than 2 hours at a time until she hit
> about 14 months. Just wanted to reassure you. I've known many co-sleepers,
> and I haven't known any teenagers who can't sleep alone :o)
Thanks for this reassurance, everyone always blames co-sleeping, but
we would not have survived the first year if we didn't co-sleep.She
reverse cycled at 12 weeks, and that was that.
cjra
> >On Mar 13, 4:13 pm, Anne Rogers <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >> So this is where you have to get creative, is there anyway at all you
> >> can create a space for her - even if it means moving something every
> >> night all a room has to be is a space where you can put a crib that is
> >> not within reach of anything that can do her harm, which mean placing
> >> something in the middle of an otherwise empty and undecorated room is an
> >> option - it's what my parents do at their house, they have a room with
> >> shelving all around the walls and precious things on them, it's a small
> >> room, but a crib in the middle is far enough from everything. I had
> >> friends who's baby slept in the kitchen, they moved the crib from the
> >> hall to the kitchen every single night and every nap, it was a pain but
> >> their kid had a normal or even better than normal sleep routine at every
> >> age.
>
> >Our problem is lack of doors - all the doors have been removed and
> >sent of for stripping (lead paint removal), . So without doors,
>
> Why does the area have to be quiet? One of the other things that my
> mom told me was not to tiptoe around when the baby was asleep because
> then she would wake at every noise. Whereas when you are running the
> vacuum or dishwasher or whatever, or if she had siblings playing
> around, she'd get used to some noise. Is it that quiet at the daycare
> when she takes her nap?
Let me add also that I'm not concerned about total silence. But if she
can see/hear mommy and daddy a few feet away from her, that's not a
signal to sleep, that's a signal to play.
She doesn't have siblings yet, but I wouldn't expect the siblings to
be playing within a few feet of where a baby was trying to sleep. I
don't think that's realistic. I couldn't sleep with such commotion
going on, why should a child be able to? We're not that loud in the
evening, but we're present. DH and I talk, we read with the light on,
we interact. That interferes with her 'calm' time to sleep.
cjra
> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
That's kind of what I've been doing lately. SHe likes to run around
outside, so she gets little finger foods as she's playing
outside...sometimes that's the only way to get her to eat.
Oddly enough, the last few nights she hasn't had these meltdowns at
6pm, but her sleep has been even worse than normal.
cjra
> Have you tried a fan in the room while she's sleeping? Since the noise is
> constant and soothing, *maybe* if she woke in the night it would let her
> drift back down into sleep without fully waking up. Alot of people can't
> sleep with total silence (I hear this constant high-pitched noise if music
> or a fan is not on). Of course you many have already tried it, I haven't
> read all the posts. Other than that I can't think of anything else to try.
No, and I blame DH on this one. Because he sleeps in the same room,
and can not tolerate 'white' noise*, we have no fan. I have been
insisting since about 6 weeks old that we need that...I can't wait to
finish her room!
(*oddly enough, we live in the city with a fair amount of city noise
such as cars and railroad whistles every freaking hour...as well as
'nature' noises of geckos, cats, birds, squirrels, rats, etc. so there
is a lot of noise around outside that kind of goes into the
background, but DH is a fussbucket against white noise in the house)
I've been hoping for the past year that once we have a room to put her
in, I can do all that stuff and my problem will be magically
resolved ;-) at least that's what I keep telling DH about why we have
to sweat every weekend to get this done!
While I'm at it, let me describe the setting - the house is 1600 SF,
with two bedrooms on one side and a living room and 'study' on the
other, separated by a wide hall way/entry way and central dining area.
The bathrooms are at the back, one off the bedroom adn another off the
dining area, both of which were the porch area enclosed for indoor
plumbing. One of those bedrooms will be hers, right now we're just
moving all the tools out...the living room and study are linked by a
large opening with pocket doors which at the moment don't work. The
study leads into a butler's pantry and the kitchen. The whole side of
the house is open. The central hall/dining area is not that big, it's
maybe 8 feet across between the bedroom and the "study". The study is
currently where our spare bed is kept. It's a great layout for a hot
climate - wonderful air flow, not so great a layout for keeping areas
'separate'. I describe this because I think it's a different layout
than what most suburbanites are accustomed to unless they've lived in
c. 1890s houses. There are not 'wings' as in a ranch, or bedroom areas
set away from living areas, or multiple floors.The walls are thick
which helps with noise, but if I was to put her in the study, there's
no way we could do anything else in the house except go to bed without
distracting her. It's just not fair to ask her to sleep with such
distractions, IMO.
don_tspamme
both my kids have strong demanding personalities where we pretty much
had to stay on it or they'd take us for a ride - for instance we
cannot cosleep as much as I love it because no one would get any sleep
(and I know what you mean by the all night boobie buffet). I am an
attachment parent emotionally, so CIO seemed like the worst thing in
the world to me, but in the end that's what we had to do. I took
comfort in the fact that although my son made it sound as if he was
being murdered (I think he's got a future on the stage, actually) he
was always totally fine, and in the morning it was as if nothing had
happened. I felt traumatized for life, and he was busy playing and
enjoying his morning. So when I had my daughter, I threw out a lot of
the attachment stuff I originally did with my DS, for instance, with
my daughter I pretty much used scheduled sleep times and never nursed
to sleep. She sleeps much better than my son did, both naps and
nighttime, I think because our boundaries are consistent and she
learned how to go to sleep by herself - which she learned because no
matter how much she cried she knew she was going to have a nap or go
to bed. Now she goes to sleep happily, and wakes up happily. With my
DS, we finally realized the attachment stuff wasn't working and had to
do some really brutal CIO when he was 2 1/2 (lasted several horrible
weeks) but now at 3 1/2 he sleeps wonderfully, with no after effects,
and he always woke up happy as if nothing had happened the night
before. This time I didn't want to go through what we went through
with him (he only napped in the car, had trouble going to sleep
without us lying down with him or nursing him etc.) so with my
daughter we went the other direction. The only thing I can tell you is
the CIO is much harder on the parents than it is on the child. I still
love attachment stuff, but it doesn't seem to work with my kids. I did
wear both of them for as long as I could however!
emoberg...@gmail.com
you!! Micah has always been a horrible sleeper. We (meaning I; DH
escaped to the nursery) co-slept with him for 5 months, then
transitioned him to the crib -- and that was pretty horrific, since he
routinely screamed for 1/2 hour before giving up and going to sleep.
ROUTINELY. None of this "oh it was so bad the first night, but by the
third night it was only 5 minutes, and a week later baby went right
down." Micah did not read that book. :P This went on for at least a
month -- maybe longer; I've blocked it out. :P And temperamentally,
he sounds very much like your A -- stubborn, sensitive, doesn't want
to miss out on anything. We've since come to realize that he also
gets night terrors which adds a delightful element to the sleeping
mix, but it doesn't sound like this is an issue for A.
Anyway, I want to sympathize. We really tried almost everything with
Micah. I was getting up in the middle of the night nursing him for 15
months (he weaned at 17), and he still wakes up in the middle of the
night now (he's 3 1/2). For a LONG time he'd come barging into our
room and try to climb into bed with us, and co-sleeping does *not*
work for my husband (I'm lucky he'll sleep with *me*!! ;) -- so there
were many nighttime battles about that.
I'm afraid this isn't sounding too positive for you... but, there is
somewhat of a light at the end of the tunnel thus far. :) For the
last few months, he brings his blanket and pillow into our bedroom and
sleeps on our floor -- doesn't try to talk to us or climb into bed or
wake us up. Now, he's also begun boycotting his bed, and will only go
to sleep in the hallway -- I think he's afraid he's missing out on all
the wonderful things DH and I are doing on the other side of the
hallway door. ;) But I'm fine with these compromises -- we almost
never have bedtime tantrums or middle-of-the-night dramas anymore.
And one more word of encouragement: Shiloh is a *great* sleeper. :)
I've got a couple suggestions which you are of course free to
ignore. ;)
1. Instead of night time bath, how about taking a quick shower with
her in the morning? Do you have time for that? I can get in and out
with both boys in under 10 minutes, and that's giving them time to
play.
2. I hate to say it, but I think you may have to do CIO. We did it
with Micah; it sucked; we had to do it for a LONG time; I felt like a
horrible mother -- but he still loves me and wants to hang out with
me. ;) It might make you feel better to sit down with her in advance
and explain what's going to happen -- she may or may not understand
(although she sounds like a smart cookie and I'm guessing she'll get
the gist). And I hate to admit it, but listening to his shrieking got
easier over time -- I guess we became desensitized. We also
discovered that if he *didn't* howl for his 1/2 hour, he'd be up again
about an hour later..
3. Remember that your get-her-to-sleep strategies will change, and
different things will work at different times. In other words, she
will not be crying herself to sleep forever. Maybe she'll be sleeping
in the newly-renovated lead-free hallway in a few months. ;)
Good luck. I know how frustrating the sleep thing can be. And I
honestly believe that although parenting strategies can exacerbate
things, kids come hardwired to be easy or challenging sleepers. If I
had been you, I'd have co-slept/night-nursed just as long for all the
same reasons.
Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04; Shiloh, 4/22/07
Linda
"Anne Rogers" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:R5udncr4yfRhBUTa...@comcast.com...
>
>> Not unless we win the lottery and can pay someone to do it. We
>> scheduled out every weekend based on what needs to be done, and came
>> up with a September end date. No other rooms are 'complete' except our
>> bedroom.
>
> I think you're stuck between a rock and a hard place here, I honestly
> think that to both continue nursing and cosleeping and also sleep through
> the night is a VERY hard task, something that I cannot recall a single
> person I've come across having done it (that could be because if it was
> easy and not a problem it doesn't get mentioned). I know plenty of people
> who nursed toddlers and had them sleeping through the night in a separate
> room and I also know of non nursing cosleeping though the night toddlers -
> I've had one of each myself!
>
This is what we did. DD still sleeps with us and is now just over 2. At
around 18 months or so I was sick of her waking to feed, often 2 or 3 times
a night (and we were wanting to try for another child and my period hadn't
returned yet) , so I'd suggest she just have a cuddle first, and if she
still wanted to nurse afterwards she could. She would still nurse to sleep
at that point, and I introduced it by saying let's just have a cuddle, and
then she can nurse. Then when she would wake in the night and want to nurse
I would do the same thing - the first few nights she woke, and I didn't
nurse her straight away she cried and I told her I was just going to cuddle
her first and then she could nurse - which I did. After a few days she
accepted it and it wasn't long before she woke up, cuddled and went straight
back to sleep without nursing at all. Then when she woke up after that time
I would say - "No, you don't nurse in the middle of the night!! (Like it
was a funny thing to want) - How about a cuddle, or a sip of water?" And
she would be fine, and pretty much after that time she started sleeping
through without a problem.
HTH
lu-lu
"Nikki" <skav...@iw.net> wrote in message
news:h-adnUYrY4fxfUTa...@prairiewave.com...
Yeah, that was the other thing I was going to suggest - Jessie has one of
these so that she can eat with us, and she loves it.
Lucy x
deja.blues
> On Mar 13, 5:03 pm, "lu-lu" <l...@lululu.com> wrote:
>> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> not do a bunch of different things that require substantial effort and
> lifestyle change in the hope that _one_ works. Many things we have
> tried, and now I'll just take it one by one and see how it goes.
???????
It sounds like great change and effort is exactly what you need to do.
Rosalie B.
>On Mar 13, 6:34 pm, Rosalie B. <gmbeas...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >Our problem is lack of doors - all the doors have been removed and
>> >sent of for stripping (lead paint removal), . So without doors,
>>
>> Why does the area have to be quiet?
>
>Lights on, tv (sometimes), computer etc. all within a few feet of her?
>Maybe your child can fall asleep with that, mine has never been able
>to. All the usual 'house' noises. Frankly I don't expect anyone to be
>able to sleep through all that. Perfectly silent? no, but constant
>stimulation in the form of lights, talking etc, she can't handle that.
Are you putting her to bed in the living room or something? I would
expect a child to be able to sleep through noise of conversation, but
maybe music or a fan or something would mask that. My DIL does that
(for herself).
How about a crib tent? (I've never seen one, but I envision something
like one of those tings that they put over bird cages to make the
birds shut up and go to sleep. That would take care of the lights.
Mine of course didn't have the computer to deal with, but I don't
think my computer makes much noise - when dh wants to go to bed before
I do, and I'm still working on the laptop, I may mute it so that it
doesn't make ANY noise.
Once we HAD a TV in the bedroom, I would often go to sleep with it on
- actually now I refuse to have a TV that doesn't have a sleep setting
so that it goes off within x number of minutes of when I set it.
Otherwise I wake at about 2 am and it's still on. (It used to be that
the off-air tone would wake me.) It's like the sleep setting on a
clock radio (which is different from the snooze alarm).
[One of dh's and my real disagreements was that when we lived in
California, he'd have the radio set to play the Ira Blue show from SF
- this was a radio phone in-talk show. He would go to sleep. I would
get so worked up thinking of answers to say that I wouldn't sleep at
all. So he'd be snoring away and I'd turn the radio off, at which
time he'd wake up and turn it back on again, saying "I was listening
to that". Eventually I made it my routine to stay in the living room
watching the Tonight show with Johnny Carson on the TV. When that was
over and the radio had turned off, then I went to bed.]
>
>>One of the other things that my
>> mom told me was not to tiptoe around when the baby was asleep because
>> then she would wake at every noise. Whereas when you are running the
>> vacuum or dishwasher or whatever, or if she had siblings playing
>> around, she'd get used to some noise. Is it that quiet at the daycare
>> when she takes her nap?
>
>Yes, it's an in-home daycare and all the kids nap at the same time.
>
>> Really it is better to do this - otherwise every time you go on a trip
>> she won't sleep.
>
>Oddly enough, as we've travelled with her a lot, she sleeps well on
>the road.
Well that's interesting. Why do you think that is? What is different
then?
cjra
> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1675786e-226f-4268...@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Mar 13, 5:03 pm, "lu-lu" <l...@lululu.com> wrote:
> >> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > btw - it's not that I'm making excuses, it's just that I'm trying to
> > not do a bunch of different things that require substantial effort and
> > lifestyle change in the hope that _one_ works. Many things we have
> > tried, and now I'll just take it one by one and see how it goes.
>
> ???????
> It sounds like great change and effort is exactly what you need to do.
I mean like going to the effort of moving the large awkward difficult
to move bed into another room temporarily in the hopes that it will
make a difference.
First I'll try smaller steps such as moving the crib close to the bed
and removing the 'arms' on it and not moving her when she wakes but
being close by to soothe her. If after some time of this it turns out
that having us in the room *is* the problem, then we'll go to the
hassle of moving our bed to another room for awhile.
Step by step.
cjra
> cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Mar 13, 6:34 pm, Rosalie B. <gmbeas...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >Our problem is lack of doors - all the doors have been removed and
> >> >sent of for stripping (lead paint removal), . So without doors,
>
> >> Why does the area have to be quiet?
>
> >Lights on, tv (sometimes), computer etc. all within a few feet of her?
> >Maybe your child can fall asleep with that, mine has never been able
> >to. All the usual 'house' noises. Frankly I don't expect anyone to be
> >able to sleep through all that. Perfectly silent? no, but constant
> >stimulation in the form of lights, talking etc, she can't handle that.
>
> Are you putting her to bed in the living room or something? I would
> expect a child to be able to sleep through noise of conversation, but
> maybe music or a fan or something would mask that. My DIL does that
> (for herself).
I have described the house set up repeatedly, perhaps you missed it.
There are not very many rooms in the house. Every other area is OPEN.
It's a smallish house. There's not some side area to put her, so yeah,
wherever she'd be outside the bedroom would be in a common living
space.
My child does NOT sleep through noise of conversation, no matter how
tired she is. Maybe she's an oddball, but so be it. I never was able
to sleep with commotion either.
> How about a crib tent? (I've never seen one, but I envision something
> like one of those tings that they put over bird cages to make the
> birds shut up and go to sleep. That would take care of the lights.
but not the noise.
> Mine of course didn't have the computer to deal with, but I don't
> think my computer makes much noise - when dh wants to go to bed before
> I do, and I'm still working on the laptop, I may mute it so that it
> doesn't make ANY noise.
> Once we HAD a TV in the bedroom, I would often go to sleep with it on
> - actually now I refuse to have a TV that doesn't have a sleep setting
> so that it goes off within x number of minutes of when I set it.
> Otherwise I wake at about 2 am and it's still on. (It used to be that
> the off-air tone would wake me.) It's like the sleep setting on a
> clock radio (which is different from the snooze alarm).
I can't sleep with a TV on.
> >Oddly enough, as we've travelled with her a lot, she sleeps well on
> >the road.
>
> Well that's interesting. Why do you think that is? What is different
> then?
Probably because she's with us 24/7 and I've always nursed her more
often when we've been travelling, because I don't want to disturb the
other people with her screams.
Ericka Kammerer
> On Mar 14, 6:53 am, "deja.blues" <deja.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1675786e-226f-4268...@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>> On Mar 13, 5:03 pm, "lu-lu" <l...@lululu.com> wrote:
>>>> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> btw - it's not that I'm making excuses, it's just that I'm trying to
>>> not do a bunch of different things that require substantial effort and
>>> lifestyle change in the hope that _one_ works. Many things we have
>>> tried, and now I'll just take it one by one and see how it goes.
>> ???????
>> It sounds like great change and effort is exactly what you need to do.
>
>
> I mean like going to the effort of moving the large awkward difficult
> to move bed into another room temporarily in the hopes that it will
> make a difference.
Any possibility of making the other bed more comfortable?
A better mattress or mattress topper or some such thing?
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> Thanks for this reassurance, everyone always blames co-sleeping, but
> we would not have survived the first year if we didn't co-sleep.She
> reverse cycled at 12 weeks, and that was that.
And there are certainly people who co-sleep with non-nursing
older kids without much trouble. I don't think it's the co-sleeping
per se, but a combination of temperament and environment and so on
that can make a particular situation untenable. I suspect the very
same things that made co-sleeping so important for you all in the
first year are the things that are making it challenging for everyone
to get a good night's sleep now ;-) Oh, the irony of parenthood ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> I am an
> attachment parent emotionally, so CIO seemed like the worst thing in
> the world to me, but in the end that's what we had to do. I took
> comfort in the fact that although my son made it sound as if he was
> being murdered (I think he's got a future on the stage, actually) he
> was always totally fine, and in the morning it was as if nothing had
> happened. I felt traumatized for life, and he was busy playing and
> enjoying his morning.
People often talk about the mismatch in styles where
a parent who is less touchy-feely gets a child who needs constant
touch/carrying/etc., but you rarely seem to hear about the opposite
situation. None of mine liked being carried or held all that much
and they all have very, very strong personalities and require very
firm boundaries. I find it exhausting, because it just doesn't
sit well with my own nature. But, that's what they need, so that's
what we have to be for them. Fortunately, there are lots of good
things as well, but some days I just wish I didn't have to be so
precise all the time.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> "cjra" <cjro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ed8745b5-89bc-4da2...@b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>> I do think the bath is part of the problem too, as she
>> sees that as play time and gets very excited, so instead of its
>> calming effect it's the opposite. It had been part of our bedtime
>> routine but clearly is not working.
>
> That's how it was for us, too. I always wondered where all the kids were
> who became relaxed from taking a bath!
Yeah, mine never did. Bath time was fun time!
>> I may try to move that to right
>> when we get home before dinner (although if she makes a huge mess at
>> dinner, it's easier to clean her in the bath) and see if that helps. I
>> think she does need some more wind down time after dinner tho.
>
> I know it's hard to not play with her after you've been working and
> haven't seen her all day!
Well, you can play with them while they're in the bath.
DD especially has a blast in there, and still loves to have
someone in the room to play/talk with/show her creations to/etc.
Best wishes,
Ericka
cjra
Sure. We could lay out the cash for a new bed instead of on
construction materials for DD's room. But as I said, I really don't
want to go to such major extremes when it's a temporary fix which very
well may not work. I am not complaining that the bed is the source of
all our problems. Rather, I am explaining why 'simply moving DH to
another room' isn't as simple as it might seem to some...not to
mention the fact that his bed is from Europe, and he's very fussy
about it. The mattress I have that he doesn't like is perfectly fine
and I like it well enough and honestly it'd be ridiculous to replace
it.
Kind of like having brain surgery for a headache. I'm trying to figure
out the simpler, pain med route first.
cjra
> MarieD wrote:
> > "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Oh yeah, we don't leave DD alone in the bath and either one or both of
us are playing with her throughout (usually DH).
cjra
<emobergrobin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh wow, coming (back) of out lurkdom to say I SO sympathize with
> you!! Micah has always been a horrible sleeper. We (meaning I; DH
> escaped to the nursery) co-slept with him for 5 months, then
> transitioned him to the crib -- and that was pretty horrific, since he
> routinely screamed for 1/2 hour before giving up and going to sleep.
> ROUTINELY. None of this "oh it was so bad the first night, but by the
> third night it was only 5 minutes, and a week later baby went right
> down." Micah did not read that book. :P This went on for at least a
> month -- maybe longer; I've blocked it out. :P And temperamentally,
> he sounds very much like your A -- stubborn, sensitive, doesn't want
> to miss out on anything. We've since come to realize that he also
> gets night terrors which adds a delightful element to the sleeping
> mix, but it doesn't sound like this is an issue for A.
I don't know...how do you know if they have night terrors. She does
wake regularly, but occasionally she'll wake shrieking.
> Anyway, I want to sympathize. We really tried almost everything with
> Micah. I was getting up in the middle of the night nursing him for 15
> months (he weaned at 17), and he still wakes up in the middle of the
> night now (he's 3 1/2). For a LONG time he'd come barging into our
> room and try to climb into bed with us, and co-sleeping does *not*
> work for my husband (I'm lucky he'll sleep with *me*!! ;) -- so there
> were many nighttime battles about that.
>
> I'm afraid this isn't sounding too positive for you... but, there is
> somewhat of a light at the end of the tunnel thus far. :) For the
> last few months, he brings his blanket and pillow into our bedroom and
> sleeps on our floor -- doesn't try to talk to us or climb into bed or
> wake us up. Now, he's also begun boycotting his bed, and will only go
> to sleep in the hallway -- I think he's afraid he's missing out on all
> the wonderful things DH and I are doing on the other side of the
> hallway door. ;) But I'm fine with these compromises -- we almost
> never have bedtime tantrums or middle-of-the-night dramas anymore.
> And one more word of encouragement: Shiloh is a *great* sleeper. :)
I appreciate the empathy. If anything it's nice to know my kid's not
the only non-sleeper out there.
> I've got a couple suggestions which you are of course free to
> ignore. ;)
>
> 1. Instead of night time bath, how about taking a quick shower with
> her in the morning? Do you have time for that? I can get in and out
> with both boys in under 10 minutes, and that's giving them time to
> play.
We haven't gotten her to like the shower, which is odd because she
loves, LOVES running into the hose shower spray outside, but for some
reason the few times we've tried to shower with her she hates it. I
don't know why. We haven't pushed it for that reason. We could
probably do it time-wise, we're just always trying to get her to sleep
as long as possible int he morning so we can get ready!
> 2. I hate to say it, but I think you may have to do CIO. We did it
> with Micah; it sucked; we had to do it for a LONG time; I felt like a
> horrible mother -- but he still loves me and wants to hang out with
> me. ;) It might make you feel better to sit down with her in advance
> and explain what's going to happen -- she may or may not understand
> (although she sounds like a smart cookie and I'm guessing she'll get
> the gist). And I hate to admit it, but listening to his shrieking got
> easier over time -- I guess we became desensitized. We also
> discovered that if he *didn't* howl for his 1/2 hour, he'd be up again
> about an hour later..
I have learned to tolerate her crying a bit more. I'm just keep hoping
a gentler route will work :(
> 3. Remember that your get-her-to-sleep strategies will change, and
> different things will work at different times. In other words, she
> will not be crying herself to sleep forever. Maybe she'll be sleeping
> in the newly-renovated lead-free hallway in a few months. ;)
That's my hope. By the time the room is done, I think she'll
understand a lot more and we're going to make such a big deal out of
it that maybe she'll see it as exciting. One can dream, eh? She's
actually a very independent child otherwise, except when she sleeps.
The bedrooms have a connecting door, so maybe that will help to make
her feel she's not too far away....we shall see!
> Good luck. I know how frustrating the sleep thing can be. And I
> honestly believe that although parenting strategies can exacerbate
> things, kids come hardwired to be easy or challenging sleepers. If I
> had been you, I'd have co-slept/night-nursed just as long for all the
> same reasons.
Thanks :)
cjra
btw - I don't mean to sound so flippant. I really appreciate all the
helpful advice from this thread and I'm processing it to figure out
what might and what might not be feasible in our situation. I find,
though, that more and more extreme suggestions are offered, getting
away from the original problem, and then I'm accused of making excuses
when I say those just aren't reasonable in the current situation. As a
last resort, maybe, but I don't think we're there yet.
Banty
says...
Yeah. I'm not real touchy-feely (but not the opposite either), but I was ready
to apply many of the attachment methods. I'd be fine with the baby strapped to
me; I didn't like the idea of co-sleeping with my infant as I sleep real
heavily, but I had him in a portable crib right next to my bed.
Turned out - he *hated* being held closely or wrapped tightly, from day 0 in the
hospital. All those swaddling techniques I learned?? Nada - he would cry and
struggle and struggle and kick and kick. So the nurse would come in and show me
a slightly different 'right' way the next day - he'd cry and struggle and
struggle and kick and kick until he was free. He had to be held *always* facing
out (bye bye baby sling) and his favorite hold was the running-back football
hold. Even a *poor* running back football hold with him held on my side and not
tucked in. Good thing there aren't too many people looking to force-fumble a
baby ;-)
The crib by the bed worked fine, but at about 2 1/2 months his hours were
dragging later and later and I was exhausted and finally tried CIO. It only
took one night of that. All along the real problem probably was partly that I
was overstimulating him some.
As long as I didn't force him he actually was I think a relatively easy baby and
little kid (why I don't have much to say about night wakings? He slept at least
six hours straight from day 0 - don't hate me ;) We're actually meshed fairly
well as far as personality. But it took a little time to figure him out, and
that the stuff I had read about what babies need that was most recent and
up-to-date just wasn't going to be applicable.
Banty
cjra
> cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Mar 13, 6:34 pm, Rosalie B. <gmbeas...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >Our problem is lack of doors - all the doors have been removed and
> >> >sent of for stripping (lead paint removal), . So without doors,
>
> >> Why does the area have to be quiet?
>
> >Lights on, tv (sometimes), computer etc. all within a few feet of her?
> >Maybe your child can fall asleep with that, mine has never been able
> >to. All the usual 'house' noises. Frankly I don't expect anyone to be
> >able to sleep through all that. Perfectly silent? no, but constant
> >stimulation in the form of lights, talking etc, she can't handle that.
>
> Are you putting her to bed in the living room or something? I would
> expect a child to be able to sleep through noise of conversation, but
> maybe music or a fan or something would mask that. My DIL does that
> (for herself).
Ok, here's a link. I'm not sure you get the full idea since we've done
a lot of work since these pictures were taken. And those pocket doors
between the rooms aren't functioning at the moment and are in the
'open' position. http://cheriseandfredo.blogspot.com/2006/02/living-room-and-entry-hall.html.
Also all the other doors have been removed for stripping (some are
done, but then they have to be sanded and painted before we put them
back up, and we're waiting to strip, sand, and paint the frames before
doing that which we have to do with DD out of the house). If you look
at the very bottom picture, the bedrooms are off to the left and the
'study' where the spare bed is is off to the right.
Nan
wrote:
>Ok, here's a link. I'm not sure you get the full idea since we've done
>a lot of work since these pictures were taken. And those pocket doors
>between the rooms aren't functioning at the moment and are in the
>'open' position. http://cheriseandfredo.blogspot.com/2006/02/living-room-and-entry-hall.html.
>Also all the other doors have been removed for stripping (some are
>done, but then they have to be sanded and painted before we put them
>back up, and we're waiting to strip, sand, and paint the frames before
>doing that which we have to do with DD out of the house). If you look
>at the very bottom picture, the bedrooms are off to the left and the
>'study' where the spare bed is is off to the right.
This is OT, but I wanted to say that I love your home! I've always
wanted to take an older home and do renovations. Good luck in your
endeavor!
Nan
cjra
> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:11:24 -0700 (PDT), cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Ok, here's a link. I'm not sure you get the full idea since we've done
> >a lot of work since these pictures were taken. And those pocket doors
> >between the rooms aren't functioning at the moment and are in the
> >Also all the other doors have been removed for stripping (some are
> >done, but then they have to be sanded and painted before we put them
> >back up, and we're waiting to strip, sand, and paint the frames before
> >doing that which we have to do with DD out of the house). If you look
> >at the very bottom picture, the bedrooms are off to the left and the
> >'study' where the spare bed is is off to the right.
>
> This is OT, but I wanted to say that I love your home! I've always
> wanted to take an older home and do renovations. Good luck in your
> endeavor!
Thanks :)
We love it too, most of the time. It's just taking A LOT longer than
we intended, as other surprises keep coming up. Not to mention a
little someone who makes it hard to work. She likes to pick up the
tools and try to use them...last Sunday I was trying to plant grass
plugs and she kept digging them up.
Rosalie B.
>I have described the house set up repeatedly, perhaps you missed it.
>There are not very many rooms in the house. Every other area is OPEN.
>It's a smallish house. There's not some side area to put her, so yeah,
>wherever she'd be outside the bedroom would be in a common living
>space.
Yes I answered before I read the post where you described it again,
and I was not paying attention in the beginning as I did not co-sleep
and did not have much trouble with night waking after about 6 months.
I do live in a pre Civil War house (in the US), but it is two stories.
And very well insulated for noise. Dd#2 was determined that she was
going to be in the band playing with her sister, but we had just moved
and the school system we moved to started instrumental music in 3rd
grade, and she was in 5th grade so way behind. She wanted to get up
and practice before school, but dh said absolutely not, that he wasn't
going to be wakened up at O dark 30 with the screeching of a clarinet.
So DD#2 went downstairs into the 'new' wing (c 1930) and shut herself
in the half bath off the kitchen and she could practice there without
waking her dad. And my son's rock band used to practice in the
living room which is right under our bedroom - made the house vibrate
a bit.
It sounds like you are a whole family of problem sleepers.<g>. And
that's the problem more than the house.
cjra
> It sounds like you are a whole family of problem sleepers.<g>. And
> that's the problem more than the house.
Oh, my parents laugh hysterically when I complain about DD's sleep
issues. Karma they say. I don't know why I have this problem since
both my parents and some of my siblings can sleep anywhere and
everywhere.
DH actually has no problem sleeping, but he is particular about the
surface and the noise.
However, I've never complained the house was the problem. I've
explained why the solutions offered of putting DD somewhere else in
the house are not practical in our particular home at this time.
There actually is a reasonable amount of noise insulation, but it
requires the doors to be closed. With no doors in some areas, it's
hard to block out noise and lights.
Banty
cjra says...
>
>On Mar 14, 9:12 am, Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> cjra wrote:
>> > On Mar 14, 6:53 am, "deja.blues" <deja.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:1675786e-226f-4268...@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >>> On Mar 13, 5:03 pm, "lu-lu" <l...@lululu.com> wrote:
>> >>>> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >>> btw - it's not that I'm making excuses, it's just that I'm trying to
>> >>> not do a bunch of different things that require substantial effort and
>> >>> lifestyle change in the hope that _one_ works. Many things we have
>> >>> tried, and now I'll just take it one by one and see how it goes.
>> >> ???????
>> >> It sounds like great change and effort is exactly what you need to do.
>>
>> > I mean like going to the effort of moving the large awkward difficult
>> > to move bed into another room temporarily in the hopes that it will
>> > make a difference.
>>
>> Any possibility of making the other bed more comfortable?
>> A better mattress or mattress topper or some such thing?
>
>Sure. We could lay out the cash for a new bed instead of on
>construction materials for DD's room. But as I said, I really don't
>want to go to such major extremes when it's a temporary fix which very
>well may not work.
A mattress or mattress topper. She suggested a mattress or mattress topper.
Not a whole bed.
This is where I'm beginning to think you're discarding ideas too fast, looking
for some magic fix.
With this, you might as well just put up with it until the house remod is done.
Because you need to be of a mind to be giving any option a chance to work, and
how it will be when all the work is done on the house is the only way you seem
to really be able to envision things finally working.
Sometimes muddling through is the only thing that people seem to be able to get
to work. For whatever reason. And it *is* an option. Folks here are trying to
come up with *better* options for you, but it is an option.
Banty
Banty
cjra says...
Sometimes it just gets down to practicalities where you just live out a
situation day by day. For whatever reason - I can't tell from here whats
actually not workable vs. what you're just not willing to try because you don't
want anything that you think is too much a hassle to you to try. But it
actually in the end may not make a difference exactly why you don't take any of
these suggestions, and you just muddle though day by day. Because every path
seems hard.
Maybe one night you won't be able to stand it anymore and try CIO ;-) or not.
But it's really not so extreme.
Either way, she won't be doing this when she's eighteen .. ;-)
Cheers,
Banty
cjra
> In article <c86b7b3c-5103-429a-9470-585983655...@m34g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Sorry I said bed but was thinking mattress. They're not cheap and we
have a good one already. DH doesn't happen to like it, but it's not
worth spending money on another (and then what to do with the old? We
try very hard to limit our purchases not just for $$ reasons but
because we aim not to be over consumers).
> This is where I'm beginning to think you're discarding ideas too fast, looking
> for some magic fix.
oooh, i'd love a magic fix!
I know there is none.
I've not discarded any ideas except that of buying a new mattress for
DH that isn't really necessary. All are possible things we're
considering, just in an order that seems most reasonable. The
suggestions seem to be getting grander, while I'm still working on the
initial, smaller steps.
This went from having DH sleep in another room, but as the other bed
hurts his back, switch beds. That's a lot of work. Not impossible, and
if seems like it's our only real option, we will consider it. (the
frames are totally different so just swapping out the mattreses with
out the frames doesn't work, and for a variety of reasons, I won't put
the mattresses on the floor in this house). So the next suggestion is
what I consider to be more extreme: get a new mattress/bed whatever
you want to call it. I'm trying to stick to the simpler, less drastic
solutions.
> With this, you might as well just put up with it until the house remod is done.
> Because you need to be of a mind to be giving any option a chance to work, and
> how it will be when all the work is done on the house is the only way you seem
> to really be able to envision things finally working.
No, I'm envisioning DD sleeping peacefully in our bed or in the crib
that's in our room. I'm trying to figure out how best to get there
with a drastic overhaul of our house. Hey, we can move out and find
new house with multiple rooms and we can each sleep in our room and
problem solved. But you know, that's a drastic measure, dontcha
think?
All in all, I've responded to quite a few suggestions that we're going
to try out.
Nan
wrote:
>Thanks :)
>We love it too, most of the time. It's just taking A LOT longer than
>we intended, as other surprises keep coming up. Not to mention a
>little someone who makes it hard to work. She likes to pick up the
>tools and try to use them...last Sunday I was trying to plant grass
>plugs and she kept digging them up.
LOL, bless her cuteness :-)
Older homes can definitely be a challenge. My parents completely
remodeled my childhood home and it was a lot of work, but the result
was absolutely beautiful.
Nan
cjra
> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:28:05 -0700 (PDT), cjra <cjroh...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Thanks :)
> >We love it too, most of the time. It's just taking A LOT longer than
> >we intended, as other surprises keep coming up. Not to mention a
> >little someone who makes it hard to work. She likes to pick up the
> >tools and try to use them...last Sunday I was trying to plant grass
> >plugs and she kept digging them up.
>
> LOL, bless her cuteness :-)
For the first 30 minutes or so I was laughing at how cute she was,
laying down on the dirt next to me, patting down the earth where I'd
planted, picking up the tool and trying to dig a new hole. Then after
another 30 minutes of the digging what I'd just planted, it stopped
being so cute!
Jamie Clark
news:fredb...@drn.newsguy.com...
When talking about mattresses, I refer to them as beds as well. So I
understood her to mean that she couldn't afford/didn't want to spend that
much money on a new bed/mattress. A new mattress can run a few thousand
dollars, so it's not a minor thing. Even a mattress pad or topper can be a
few hundred for a really good one. And if her dh is as picky as I am, you
can't just throw a $30 pad on top of a bed that you consider to be
uncomfortable -- it just doesn't do anything.
> This is where I'm beginning to think you're discarding ideas too fast,
> looking
> for some magic fix.
>
> With this, you might as well just put up with it until the house remod is
> done.
> Because you need to be of a mind to be giving any option a chance to work,
> and
> how it will be when all the work is done on the house is the only way you
> seem
> to really be able to envision things finally working.
>
> Sometimes muddling through is the only thing that people seem to be able
> to get
> to work. For whatever reason. And it *is* an option. Folks here are
> trying to
> come up with *better* options for you, but it is an option.
>
> Banty
>
I totally understand where she is coming from. She wants to start small and
simple and work up to the bigger possible solutions. As she said, it's like
going for brain surgery for a headache, or burning down your house to kill a
rat. Yes, it might solve the problem, but so would several other less
extreme measures. Obviously you want to solve the problem with the
easiest/fastest solution if at all possible. I'm sure if she discovers that
the easy solutions don't work, she'll keep trying other things until she
gets to the more difficult ones.
--
Jamie Clark
Jamie Clark
news:ur9lt3lc5mirrssqd...@4ax.com...
It sounds to me like she has a family of light sleepers, not problem
sleepers. And she clearly has a small ranch style house, where every room
pretty much opens onto the public rooms -- be it living room, kitchen or
dinning room. I've lived in houses and apartments like that, where life
went on as usual on the other side of your door. Now I live in a large 2
story home, and there are all sorts of places I can go to be out of sight or
earshot from my dh or kids, with or without shutting a door.
I am a very light sleeper. I can't sleep with noise or lights. I can't
sleep sitting up (in an airplane, train, or car, for example). I don't fall
asleep with the TV on, either in bed, or downstairs while watching. Dh
can't stay up in bed and read, or even use a laptop, as that would be too
much light for me and it would keep me awake.
Dh, on the other hand, can sleep almost anywhere. He is a heavy sleeper,
and routinely falls asleep on the sofa in the middle of a show, or during a
movie, or in bed while I have the overhead light on and am getting ready for
bed, etc. It takes a bit to wake him in the middle of the night. The kids
can be up and down 3-4 times, in and out of our room, talking, etc, and he
hears none of it.
--
Jamie Clark
cjra
> "Rosalie B." <gmbeas...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
Basically, yes. Not ranch style but yes all the rooms open onto the
center of the house/public rooms (and all are interconnected).
> I am a very light sleeper. I can't sleep with noise or lights. I can't
> sleep sitting up (in an airplane, train, or car, for example). I don't fall
> asleep with the TV on, either in bed, or downstairs while watching. Dh
> can't stay up in bed and read, or even use a laptop, as that would be too
> much light for me and it would keep me awake.
Yes! Now that is true. I am definitely a light sleeper, all the same
issues Jaime described. Really stinks on 20+ hour plane flights :( but
life goes on. I had sleep issues as a kid though, according to my
parents, and as a teen had bouts of insomnia frequently.
> Dh, on the other hand, can sleep almost anywhere. He is a heavy sleeper,
> and routinely falls asleep on the sofa in the middle of a show, or during a
> movie, or in bed while I have the overhead light on and am getting ready for
> bed, etc. It takes a bit to wake him in the middle of the night. The kids
> can be up and down 3-4 times, in and out of our room, talking, etc, and he
> hears none of it.
My DH is now conditioned to it. DH is actually not a light sleeper at
all. For more than a year he slept right through DD's night wakings
even tho she was 2 inches from him (except when she really screamed,
which was rare then). Since he took over night duty though, he does
wake all the time. Unfortunately I do too. I think part of the reason
her night wakings are getting harder to deal with is that I also have
to deal with DH's lack of sleep grumpiness ;-). I can handle lack of
sleep much better than he can, although even I have my limits!
Jamie Clark
I saw the photos. It looks like it has some beautiful bones! Obviously
life will get easier once you get the doors back up...
>> I am a very light sleeper. I can't sleep with noise or lights. I can't
>> sleep sitting up (in an airplane, train, or car, for example). I don't
>> fall
>> asleep with the TV on, either in bed, or downstairs while watching. Dh
>> can't stay up in bed and read, or even use a laptop, as that would be too
>> much light for me and it would keep me awake.
>
> Yes! Now that is true. I am definitely a light sleeper, all the same
> issues Jaime described. Really stinks on 20+ hour plane flights :( but
> life goes on. I had sleep issues as a kid though, according to my
> parents, and as a teen had bouts of insomnia frequently.
Ah, see, I never had "sleep issues" as a child, and don't have insomnia.
Once I'm asleep, I'm good to go. I wake multiple times a night for various
reasons -- have to pee, kid has nightmare, dh is snoring (or breathing
towards me), but I can roll over and go back to sleep easily. I have taken
to sleeping with a pillow over my head. It makes it dark and quiet, all in
one fell swoop. I have also used earplugs and an eye mask in the past.
>> Dh, on the other hand, can sleep almost anywhere. He is a heavy sleeper,
>> and routinely falls asleep on the sofa in the middle of a show, or during
>> a
>> movie, or in bed while I have the overhead light on and am getting ready
>> for
>> bed, etc. It takes a bit to wake him in the middle of the night. The
>> kids
>> can be up and down 3-4 times, in and out of our room, talking, etc, and
>> he
>> hears none of it.
>
> My DH is now conditioned to it. DH is actually not a light sleeper at
> all. For more than a year he slept right through DD's night wakings
> even tho she was 2 inches from him (except when she really screamed,
> which was rare then). Since he took over night duty though, he does
> wake all the time. Unfortunately I do too. I think part of the reason
> her night wakings are getting harder to deal with is that I also have
> to deal with DH's lack of sleep grumpiness ;-). I can handle lack of
> sleep much better than he can, although even I have my limits!
Dh was conditioned to it for a while, but as the kids got older and wake
less and less frequently, he's basically given up night wakings back to me.
On the plus side, though, he gets up with the girls every morning and lets
me sleep in for another hour or so. While both girls were babies though,
he'd pop right up and get them if he needed to. We would alternate nights
On Duty, and on his nights, he was great. On my nights, he'd sleep through.
Sometimes I'd have to go to "Holiday Inn" which is what we named our
downstairs guest room, so that I wouldn't wake up when the baby cried.
--
Jamie Clark
cjra
>
> Dh was conditioned to it for a while, but as the kids got older and wake
> less and less frequently, he's basically given up night wakings back to me.
> On the plus side, though, he gets up with the girls every morning and lets
> me sleep in for another hour or so. While both girls were babies though,
> he'd pop right up and get them if he needed to. We would alternate nights
> On Duty, and on his nights, he was great. On my nights, he'd sleep through.
> Sometimes I'd have to go to "Holiday Inn" which is what we named our
> downstairs guest room, so that I wouldn't wake up when the baby cried.
I am so conditioned that when I really am at a real Holiday Inn (or
hotel of some sort, away on business overnight) , I still wake up at
the same time she does. That's also why I'm fairly certain it's a
habit all around.
Banty
OK, thats fine.
It's just that when there are sooo many limits placed on a problem, it may never
converge to a solution.
Blame the engineer in me.
Not only are there things about the people involved being sensitive to various
things (not criticizing) that limit the options, theres all kinds of limits on
cost, effort, 'consumerism', etc. etc. I understand wanting to go for the
simplest effective solution. But one needs to give the problem enough latitude
to actually be able to *have* an effective solution at all!
Which is when I say, if everything's so hard, consider just staying the way
things are since at least when the house is done things should settle down.
There's a natural time limit to the problem, so maybe sheer endurance is the
solution. I don't think we'll be reading about any suicides ;-) Thats the
only point I'm making.
Now, myself as a mom who was single from the beginning and bought a house when
my son was 18 months old, I had the house remods done a little at a time, so as
to not corner myself with this kind of grand undertaking. But they are where
they are with that ..
Banty
Banty
cjra says...
>
>> I am a very light sleeper. I can't sleep with noise or lights. I can't
>> sleep sitting up (in an airplane, train, or car, for example). I don't fall
>> asleep with the TV on, either in bed, or downstairs while watching. Dh
>> can't stay up in bed and read, or even use a laptop, as that would be too
>> much light for me and it would keep me awake.
>
>Yes! Now that is true. I am definitely a light sleeper, all the same
>issues Jaime described. Really stinks on 20+ hour plane flights :( but
>life goes on. I had sleep issues as a kid though, according to my
>parents, and as a teen had bouts of insomnia frequently.
I sleep deeply pretty much as soon as my head hits the pillow; but I could
*never* sleep or even doze much in the half-sitting position that is the best
that can be managed in an airplane. In cattle-class, anyway :-)
There's only so mucn one can do about that sort of thing. Other than trying not
to make is worse by getting PO'ed if one is awakened.
Banty
cjra
> In article <UdOdnYEpRfX9VUfanZ2dnUVZ_vyin...@comcast.com>, Jamie Clark says...
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Banty" <Banty_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> >news:fredb...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >> In article
> >> <c86b7b3c-5103-429a-9470-585983655...@m34g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
I'm guessing you missed the first 20-30 or so posts in this thread,
where a number of solutions were offered and discussed, and I said I
was going to try some of them for a certain length of time to see how
they worked. Some I've already tried and they didn't work, so I'm on
to the next step. or they worked for awhile but now no longer.
I rejected other solutions as not feasible or just simply more extreme
than I felt was warranted initially. Those rejected solutions are what
led to more extreme options. The perfectly feasible and realistic
options are in the works. I think that's sufficient latitude.
If you can't see all the messages on your newsreader, try reading
through google groups, as then you can see all the messages and you'll
find all the ones where we discussed those things I'm about to try. If
you don't feel like reading all the messages I can't blame you, but
you must also understand that if you jump into a discussion late, you
can't draw any conclusions as you've missed a lot.
> Which is when I say, if everything's so hard, consider just staying the way
> things are since at least when the house is done things should settle down.
> There's a natural time limit to the problem, so maybe sheer endurance is the
> solution.
But everything is not so hard. I never said it was. There were plenty
of suggestions that were quite simple. Others took those a step
further to offer what they felt were simple suggestions, but in our
situation were not. I simply expained why those suggestions were not
realistic at this time. I haven't rejected the simpler suggestions at
all.
> Now, myself as a mom who was single from the beginning and bought a house when
> my son was 18 months old, I had the house remods done a little at a time, so as
> to not corner myself with this kind of grand undertaking.
Good for you.
Our house was not livable when we purchased it. We tore it down to the
studs. We rented for about 6 months, but could no longer afford to pay
a mortgage and rent and made the house livable. We are working on it
one room at a time, in the midst of having a family. There are a
variety of reasons why we chose the house we did, in the circumstances
we had. I have yet to complain about the house and am not 'blaming' it
for my daughter's sleep issues. I described it up only because the
suggestions some had didn't fit with our current housing circumstances
and it was clear from some responses that folks didn't quite
understand the type of housing situation we were in.
Banty
I *have* been reading. Just not commenting as I didnt have the same issue. But
I think there is some reaching for the simple, but likely ineffective going on.
Like the failed dieter saying "i tried this; i tried that...."...
>
>If you can't see all the messages on your newsreader, try reading
>through google groups, as then you can see all the messages and you'll
>find all the ones where we discussed those things I'm about to try. If
>you don't feel like reading all the messages I can't blame you, but
>you must also understand that if you jump into a discussion late, you
>can't draw any conclusions as you've missed a lot.
Oh thank you very much :-/, after 15 years on Usenet without you I would have
had no clue how to read a newsgroup.
>
>> Which is when I say, if everything's so hard, consider just staying the way
>> things are since at least when the house is done things should settle down.
>> There's a natural time limit to the problem, so maybe sheer endurance is the
>> solution.
>
>But everything is not so hard. I never said it was. There were plenty
>of suggestions that were quite simple. Others took those a step
>further to offer what they felt were simple suggestions, but in our
>situation were not. I simply expained why those suggestions were not
>realistic at this time. I haven't rejected the simpler suggestions at
>all.
>
>>Now, myself as a mom who was single from the beginning and bought a house when
>>my son was 18 months old, I had the house remods done a little at a time, so as
>> to not corner myself with this kind of grand undertaking.
>
>Good for you.
>
>Our house was not livable when we purchased it. We tore it down to the
>studs. We rented for about 6 months, but could no longer afford to pay
>a mortgage and rent and made the house livable. We are working on it
>one room at a time, in the midst of having a family. There are a
>variety of reasons why we chose the house we did, in the circumstances
>we had. I have yet to complain about the house and am not 'blaming' it
>for my daughter's sleep issues. I described it up only because the
>suggestions some had didn't fit with our current housing circumstances
>and it was clear from some responses that folks didn't quite
>understand the type of housing situation we were in.
>
Well, getting a pretty much livable house, although a fixer, would have been
easier (but I'm sure you'll list your reasons why you couldn't do *that*). But
that's water under the bridge. I'm guessing you just underestimated the amount
of upheaval all the remod would be. But that's just human.
All I'm saying is.. maybe the bottom line of all this is that, between changes
you can't, or won't, do, it doesnt really in the end matter all that much which
is which, and you can maybe just hold on until the house is all done.
Banty
cjra
> "Anne Rogers" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
> news:R5udncr4yfRhBUTa...@comcast.com...
>
>
>
> >> Not unless we win the lottery and can pay someone to do it. We
> >> scheduled out every weekend based on what needs to be done, and came
> >> up with a September end date. No other rooms are 'complete' except our
> >> bedroom.
>
> > I think you're stuck between a rock and a hard place here, I honestly
> > think that to both continue nursing and cosleeping and also sleep through
> > the night is a VERY hard task, something that I cannot recall a single
> > person I've come across having done it (that could be because if it was
> > easy and not a problem it doesn't get mentioned). I know plenty of people
> > who nursed toddlers and had them sleeping through the night in a separate
> > room and I also know of non nursing cosleeping though the night toddlers -
> > I've had one of each myself!
>
> This is what we did. DD still sleeps with us and is now just over 2. At
> around 18 months or so I was sick of her waking to feed, often 2 or 3 times
> a night (and we were wanting to try for another child and my period hadn't
> returned yet) , so I'd suggest she just have a cuddle first, and if she
> still wanted to nurse afterwards she could. She would still nurse to sleep
> at that point, and I introduced it by saying let's just have a cuddle, and
> then she can nurse. Then when she would wake in the night and want to nurse
> I would do the same thing - the first few nights she woke, and I didn't
> nurse her straight away she cried and I told her I was just going to cuddle
> her first and then she could nurse - which I did. After a few days she
> accepted it and it wasn't long before she woke up, cuddled and went straight
> back to sleep without nursing at all. Then when she woke up after that time
> I would say - "No, you don't nurse in the middle of the night!! (Like it
> was a funny thing to want) - How about a cuddle, or a sip of water?" And
> she would be fine, and pretty much after that time she started sleeping
> through without a problem.
> HTH
Yeah, I think this is part of the problem. When I first moved out of
the room, about 14 months, it took a few days but she started sleeping
longer stretched and eventually got to 9-10 hour stretches almost
consistently. She she'd stopped nursing during the night, but would
nurse when she woke up and before sleeping. All was well. I didn't
even have to go through the whole 'you don't want to nurse' thing - I
wasn't there so she didn't notice. Well, she did try to nurse DH a few
times, but she quickly learned that didn't work and fell back to
sleep.
Then she got sick, would eat or drink *nothing* and I nursed her like
a newborn...she got better fairly quickly, at least over the worst,
and her appetite did come back, but not to quite the same level. She
developed a sinus infection around that time, which improved with
antibiotics and then we were travelling and again nursing more than
normal. This got compounded by a short hospital stay by me, and DH
started giving her milk again at night because it usually worked to
help her sleep, but eventually that turned into her waking up for it.
Since then things haven't been as consistent as they should have been.
I've gone in to nurse her a number of times, because she'll scream
like she's in pain or desperate, but I realize now it's just that
she's smart ;-)
So I think you're right in that we really need to decide no nursing at
night at all, and no milk from Papa either and just be prepared to
stick it out a lot longer this time.
What I noticed last night is that even though she's not nursing, she's
touching me. She'll doze off, I even hear snoring. I inch away (I
can't sleep that close anymore) and as soon as I move away, no matter
how gentle, she sits up and yells. Stinker.
lu-lu
> On Mar 14, 2:49 pm, Banty <Banty_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> > In article <UdOdnYEpRfX9VUfanZ2dnUVZ_vyin...@comcast.com>, Jamie Clark
says...
> >
various
> > things (not criticizing) that limit the options, theres all kinds of
limits on
> > cost, effort, 'consumerism', etc. etc. I understand wanting to go for
the
> > simplest effective solution. But one needs to give the problem enough
latitude
> > to actually be able to *have* an effective solution at all!
>
> I'm guessing you missed the first 20-30 or so posts in this thread,
> where a number of solutions were offered and discussed, and I said I
> was going to try some of them for a certain length of time to see how
> they worked. Some I've already tried and they didn't work, so I'm on
> to the next step. or they worked for awhile but now no longer.
>
> I rejected other solutions as not feasible or just simply more extreme
> than I felt was warranted initially. Those rejected solutions are what
> led to more extreme options. The perfectly feasible and realistic
> options are in the works. I think that's sufficient latitude.
>
> If you can't see all the messages on your newsreader, try reading
> through google groups, as then you can see all the messages and you'll
> find all the ones where we discussed those things I'm about to try. If
> you don't feel like reading all the messages I can't blame you, but
> you must also understand that if you jump into a discussion late, you
> can't draw any conclusions as you've missed a lot.
>
were offered to help resolve simpler situations that apparently couldn't be
used. For example, you and DH can't share a room at the moment as DD's in
there and you want to sleep.. DD can't move in to your room due to the lack
of doors. Therefore, it was suggested DH and you sleep in your room, but due
to you not wanting to move the beds at the moment, it was suggested you get
a mattress topper as a tempory solution to aid DH's back.
This isn't me saying you're rejecting all ideas, it's me trying to explain
why the ideas appeared to have escalated. At the start of the thread, no one
was saying that you should buy DH a new mattress etc, those ideas only came
about later when others were said to be unfeasable. The bigger ideas only
came about to help you acheive the simpler ones - i.e., DD sleeping in a
room of her own in a house that's not ready yet, as you said you felt like
it was teasing her to have her crib in your room. Not sleeping well until
the completion is due in september seems like a long time to be tired to me.
Whatever you decide to do, I hope you all get a night's sleep soon!
Lucy x
cjra
> >> OK, thats fine.
>
> >>It's just that when there are sooo many limits placed on a problem, it may never
> >> converge to a solution.
>
> >> Blame the engineer in me.
>
> >>Not only are there things about the people involved being sensitive to various
> >>things (not criticizing) that limit the options, theres all kinds of limits on
> >> cost, effort, 'consumerism', etc. etc. I understand wanting to go for the
> >>simplest effective solution. But one needs to give the problem enough latitude
> >> to actually be able to *have* an effective solution at all!
>
> >I'm guessing you missed the first 20-30 or so posts in this thread,
> >where a number of solutions were offered and discussed, and I said I
> >was going to try some of them for a certain length of time to see how
> >they worked. Some I've already tried and they didn't work, so I'm on
> >to the next step. or they worked for awhile but now no longer.
>
> >I rejected other solutions as not feasible or just simply more extreme
> >than I felt was warranted initially. Those rejected solutions are what
> >led to more extreme options. The perfectly feasible and realistic
> >options are in the works. I think that's sufficient latitude.
>
> I *have* been reading. Just not commenting as I didnt have the same issue. But
> I think there is some reaching for the simple, but likely ineffective going on.
> Like the failed dieter saying "i tried this; i tried that...."...
Then you're wilfully ignoring quite a lot of responses where I
specifically said "I will try that."
> Well, getting a pretty much livable house, although a fixer, would have been
> easier (but I'm sure you'll list your reasons why you couldn't do *that*).
That's not the topic for discussion. We had reasons for our choice,
which as I've said are not really relevant here. We're happy with our
choice. The situation just is as it is, and it's different than it
would be for someone with a new house. Ok. It's hard for many to
picture the layout or circumstances if it's not something they've ever
experienced.
> But
> that's water under the bridge. I'm guessing you just underestimated the amount
> of upheaval all the remod would be. But that's just human.
Yes and no. We've both done/lived in houses throughout renovations
before (my parents' house took about 15 years), and we'd looked at
about 10-15 houses over a year before settling on this one. We did
know how much work was involved, but we did underestimate the time,
and we've made some mistakes along the way with certain contractors.
We also wrongly assumed we could do much more when DD was born than
we've been able to.
> All I'm saying is.. maybe the bottom line of all this is that, between changes
> you can't, or won't, do, it doesnt really in the end matter all that much which
> is which, and you can maybe just hold on until the house is all done.
Maybe. I liked many of the suggestions offered which can be addressed
immediately without major structural changes to our household (moving
the crib next to the bed, removing the arms of it, not nursing, for
example are all things first on the list). As I've said, too many
times to count, if these steps don't work after a reasonable amount of
time, we go to the next step.
cjra
> "cjra" <cjroh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I guess I wasn't clear enough early on. So let me clarify now:
I chose to sleep in another room because for some months that seemed
to help DD sleep. It's not now. The situation we're currently faced
with is that she must sleep in this particular room. I don't know if
DH being there is a problem or not. I know my being there is
potentially problematic. I'm trying to figure out how I can still have
her in that room, with DH, and sleep.
Some suggestions have been very helpful, and we're trying them.
I certainly haven't said all the situations suggested can't be used!
Banty
cjra says...
For all of two days...
I think that your solution will probably have to come in some combination of
conditioning her (crying it out or similar), which will take some sheer will and
consistency, and getting yourselves set up more ideally as far as bedroom
separation and doors and beds and so on. Which you don't have access to right
now. You can try moving the crib and stuff like that - it's what we call in
problem solving "low hanging fruit". But it often doesn't get at the cause -
they're the cheap things that might work on an off-chance.
Not saying you shouldn't try it first :)
>
>
>> Well, getting a pretty much livable house, although a fixer, would have been
>> easier (but I'm sure you'll list your reasons why you couldn't do *that*).
>
>That's not the topic for discussion. We had reasons for our choice,
>which as I've said are not really relevant here. We're happy with our
>choice. The situation just is as it is, and it's different than it
>would be for someone with a new house. Ok. It's hard for many to
>picture the layout or circumstances if it's not something they've ever
>experienced.
That's what I said (below) - it is what it is.
>
>> But
>>that's water under the bridge. I'm guessing you just underestimated the amount
>> of upheaval all the remod would be. But that's just human.
>
>Yes and no. We've both done/lived in houses throughout renovations
>before (my parents' house took about 15 years), and we'd looked at
>about 10-15 houses over a year before settling on this one. We did
>know how much work was involved, but we did underestimate the time,
>and we've made some mistakes along the way with certain contractors.
>We also wrongly assumed we could do much more when DD was born than
>we've been able to.
Yep. That's all I'm saying. It's human. *Everyone* underestimates that stuff.
Yes, even those who have done it before.
>
>>All I'm saying is.. maybe the bottom line of all this is that, between changes
>>you can't, or won't, do, it doesnt really in the end matter all that much which
>> is which, and you can maybe just hold on until the house is all done.
>
>Maybe. I liked many of the suggestions offered which can be addressed
>immediately without major structural changes to our household (moving
>the crib next to the bed, removing the arms of it, not nursing, for
>example are all things first on the list). As I've said, too many
>times to count, if these steps don't work after a reasonable amount of
>time, we go to the next step.
>
OK.
Good luck.
Banty
cjra
options with DH, here's what we're going to do for at least 10 days.
Pantley claims 10 days, if at that point it's not working, we'll
reevaluate and if it looks like we're making progress, we'll try
another 10 days. If not at all, then we'll re-think it.
*keep DD in our room where she is now
*take the arms off the crib (it converts to a toddler bed)
*move the crib right next to our bed
*when she wakes, not pick her up, not nurse her, but try to soothe her
back to sleep with pats on the back. This may require me to have an
arm on her for awhile.
*if she gets to screaming stage I might sit with her or walk to calm
her down, though I'm not sure if this will throw things out of whack
or not
*make sure as much as is possible that she's well fed before dinner
(although we always try this, some nights she just won't eat)
*keep a consistent bedtime of 7:30
*keep the bath at night for now, since overall that works best - it's
not every night, more like every 3rd, but if it appears that the bath
is winding her up, we'll change that
*offer her only water if she does wake up
*On nursing to sleep, I think I will still nurse her, but do it
sitting up and then lay her down awake rather than nursing laying down
to sleep on the bed as we do now. She fights this already, but I'll be
tough.
I'm holding off on the white noise for now as DH is unwilling to move
beds at the moment and that's not yet a battle I feel I need to fight.
If we're making no progress with all of the above, I may insist upon
it for at least a few nights and try a fan in the room (and he can
either move rooms or tolerate the fan. He is getting to desperation
stage but he's not quite there yet).
If after a month or so we're nowhere near close to sleeping longer
stretches, I'll see if it seems our presence is the problem, and then
we'll move to another room and I'll fight the battle with DH on the
bed. I won't be buying a new mattress. We won't be buying a new house
with lots of rooms ;-) I'm also not inclined to do a lot of work on
another room as a temporary solution since every weekend doing that is
a weekend away from working on DD's room, which is the priority (we
have too much experience of starting our priority project, only to
have another project come up requiring our immediate attention and
then everything else gets pushed back another month).
I've decided we'll tolerate the night wakings or resort to CIO at that
point if we have to.
Thanks again for all your suggestions. I really appreciate the help.
I've decided for my next child, I'm ordering a sleeper, with a really
calm personality ;-)
cjra
> In article <d417448b-b1ca-40ad-bc64-adec26644...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
???I said I was only going to try these solutions for two days? If so,
that's not what I meant. I was originally thinking a week. Ann and Sue
both discussed 21 days as optimum. Elizabeth Pantley says 10 days.
We'll start there and see where we are then.
I'm not following.
Anne Rogers
>> Thanks for this reassurance, everyone always blames co-sleeping, but
>> we would not have survived the first year if we didn't co-sleep.She
>> reverse cycled at 12 weeks, and that was that.
>
> And there are certainly people who co-sleep with non-nursing
> older kids without much trouble.
I've always struggled with having a child in the bed, so cosleeping
never meant getting more sleep, though it may have suited DS. He weaned
when I fell pregnant, we then moved to Korea, he had never been a good
sleeper, but at home had been mostly in his own bed in his own room. It
ended up that the vast majority of the time he shared a bed with dad and
slept through whilst I slept by myself. Co sleeping was what made him
sleep through, not the opposite, if DH didn't go and join him when he
went to bed, DS would wake up in the middle of the night and end up in
our bed. We discovered that this was entirely normal in that culture.
One time, I had to go the the ER and a friend came to take DS once it
got late and I wasn't going anywhere, he took DS to bed with him - in
the UK or the US we'd freak about paedaphilia, but it didn't occur to
this chap that it was even worth attempting to do anything different.
Anne
cjra
> > We start bedtime at 7pm. If it's bath night that adds in another 15
> > minutes or so. This may be another issue, but I'm not sure as it's not
> > consistent. bath time = play time for her. She goes nuts in the bath,
> > it's not really relaxing. However it doesn't seem to have an effect
> > either way on the falling to sleep.
>
> You might try moving bath time to another time, then. That
> may be tricky with your schedules, but maybe there's another time
> that would suit.
We've considered trying the bath as soon as we get home. Maybe a
solution, though now it's so nice out she's enjoying running around
outside when we get home!
>
> > Generally we're in bed by 7:30 almost every night, and sometimes
> > she'll fall to sleep in 10 minutes (~6 songs on the night time CD) and
> > sometimes it'll take an hour.
>
> See, that seems a bit wonky to me. If she's well into
> a routine, I just wouldn't expect to see that much variation in
> how long it takes her to get to sleep. I'm not sure if that's
> being overtired, being overstimulated, having you nearby, or
> what.
It's not that often that it takes so long, or it wasn't. Lately it has
been more of a problem. I really don't know why, there's nothing
consistent in either the stimulation or the sleep patterns. Now, that
said there were some nights DH was playing with her too much and
getting her wound up. I've finally convinced him to stop that I think.
> > SHe's good with her naps at daycare 'cause all the other kids sleep.
> > One the weekends it's another story, kind of hit or miss.
>
> Having two days a week where her daytime sleep is
> messed up can keep the chaos alive with her nighttime sleep
> during the week.
I know. This has been a consistent problem all her life. I assumed
early on it was just that she wanted to maximize her Mama and Papa
time. There are many weekends I've spent the better part of the day
trying to get her to nap.
> > I really don't like the concept of CIO. The couple of times I've let
> > her cry have been out of sheer desperation. It's hard for me to do it
> > in a planned manner, although I'm getting there. I'd prefer to find
> > something gentler. I really don't care about everyone else telling me
> > she should be STTN by now. Until recently I was tolerating it ok, but
> > it's really taking its toll on both DH and myself and I think her too.
>
> I am also not a big fan of CIO, but I do also believe there
> are some personalities that will take you for a ride if you are not
> willing to be firm. With those kids, it is not kind to be wishy
> washy on boundaries, because it puts them on a roller coaster where
> nothing is to be depended upon. It also makes life difficult for
> you. Your daughter is not an infant anymore, so you are not dealing
> with infant issues and needs, so you should not frame them that way
> to yourself.
Good point. It's hard to make that transition, although as she gets
more stubborn it's a little easier to see her as a child and not a
baby ;-). I agree I think that's been the problem. Though we have a
routine, the sleeping situation isn't as consistent as it should be,
with sometimes nursing at night.
> I think you have to make some distinctions here. If you
> are nearby and she is screaming at night, one of two things is
> most likely happening (assuming she's not sick): she's hungry
> or she just wants to play with you. The ultimate solution to
> the former is more food during the day. You can work that issue
> on the positive side (trying to get more in during the day), the
> negative side (refusing to further the habit of eating at night
> so she'll be hungrier during the day), or both.
We've been working the positive side a lot, but how do you get a kid
to eat more? I am sure I said this elsewhere in this thread, but I
think part of it is that she does eat a lot during the day at daycare,
so at 6pm she's not so hungry. The few nights she hasn't fallen asleep
and it's 8pm, I give her food and she gobbles it down. So I'm not sure
if we should try to cut back on food during the day. I think she eats
a little less during the day at home on the weekends just because
we're doing other stuff more, so she tends to eat more at night, but
doesn't necessarily sleep better.
If she wants play
> time (whether that's active play time or cuddle time), you cannot
> afford to feed that habit if you want any of you to get a good
> night's sleep. Some kids are very flexible, but it sounds like
> your daughter is much more determined than that, so if you give
> in once, that's good for a month's worth of effort to break the
> habit again.
I think you know my daughter ;-). Yeah, she's determined, so this is
clear where we need to stop this habit. She has often been middle of
the night party girl. We keep everything quiet and calm, but she'd do
things like push the button on the gloworm and start dancing to the
music.
> You've also got the added wrinkle of wanting to change
> the habit of having her sleep with you. That will also require
> a change process.
I want to change it only because I think it's part of the problem. I'm
not opposed to her continuing to sleep in our bed if she actually
*sleeps*.
>
> So, you've got three habits to change. Often it's easier
> to change a habit by substituting something else for it, rather
> than just eliminating it. I'd pick one habit at a time to change
> rather than trying to do them all at once. If I felt I needed to
> do it all at once, I'd do something radical like go on vacation
> somewhere, have a day or two where you *totally* mess up the
> schedule, and then take several more days to settle into the
> schedule you want, and then try to transition the new schedule
> home. That can be tough to arrange, though.
Well......we did have a major vacation late December which made the
problem worse I think. However we had more fluctuations when we
returned with the surgery and all, so everything was out of whack. She
slept at our neighbor's the night I went in (as DH was still out of
the country), and they said that with their 2.5 yr old, DD slept like
an angel, waking up briefly once and falling back to sleep. Ditto
their own daughter, who usually is up often. I wish I could give her a
kid to share the bed ;-)
> To change the play time, I think you're only option is
> to completely refuse to give in unless she's sick or something.
> If she's in the crib, you can rub or pat her back or something,
> but don't pick her up or take her out of the crib. She will
> likely pitch a huge fit over this, but the thing to keep in
> mind is that you're right there when she's doing it. She's not
> hungry (either deal with the food issue before attempting to
> deal with the play issue, or feed her before trying to resettle
> her), she's not in pain or anything like that, so this is just
> the two of you having a disagreement over appropriate nighttime
> activities. She can pitch a tantrum over that. If you're there
> patting her back or whatever, she's clearly not scared or anything
> like that. This is a simple clashing of wills. Sounds like you've
> been blessed with one of those kids who are very strong willed.
> That has its benefits, but you can't afford to be a pushover.
> You can be judicious about the things you take a stand on, but
> you can't fold on the things that are important or you do her
> a terrific disservice. It is very hard on strong-willed children
> to have weak willed parents. It forces them to shoulder the
> responsibility for making decisions too early because they know
> they can browbeat you into caving. It makes the world a much
> scarier place because they don't know that they can count on you
> to keep them safe.
Very good point. What's funny is that in everything else in life, she
has very strong-willed parents. She just turned out to be stronger! I
never worried about being a weak willed parent before since it's so
totally opposite of my personality, but this little one figured out
how to work us....
> Now, the tricky bit with this is that especially with
> some strong-willed children, having you standing there patting her
> on the back may actually prolong the crying because it keeps giving
> her hope that you'll cave. That's something you just have to decide
> for yourself. I know it's awful to walk away with them crying,
> but it's also awful to stand there with them crying. And, of
> course, it's awful to continue a habit that's detrimental to
> both of you. No easy answers. Personally, I'd likely tackle this
> issue last and hope tackling the others magically solves it ;-)
Well, that's my hope. But as time goes by and I get more desperate,
I'm more able to walk away from her screaming.
> The other thing that may be a factor is that she might
> be trying to get her Mommy time at night since you're at work
> during the day. That can make it hard to make a commitment to
> insisting on no play/cuddle time at night because of all the
> feelings involved with that. However, if you think that's part
> of the issue, then maybe you need to look at ways to address it.
> Could you jiggle schedules in such a way as to allow a little
> extra Mommy time somewhere else? Could you stop by for lunch at
> daycare? Could you do something different in the mornings? Could
> you make some of the evening Mommy time more salient somehow?
That was definitely an issue early on with the reverse cycling. I'm
not sure how much of an issue it is now. She loves her play time at
daycare so much, she doesn't seem to miss us, but maybe that's
possible. My work schedule is not flexible at all,unfortunately. Back
when I worked near her daycare I used to go for lunch every day.
However 1) we moved daycares almost a year ago and after a few times
going, the babysitter felt it was disrupting her because she wasn't
settling back in well, so I stopped going then and 2)now I work quite
far away and it takes too long to get there. We've considered changing
daycares to a closer one, but nixed that because 1)she's really really
happy where she is, as are we and 2)I often have days where I'm not
at the office but work off-site, and with traffic would be *really*
inconvenient for DH to go so far out of his way to get her, they'd get
home much later.
Now with better weather we're spending more time outside in the
evenings playing, and I'm with her all evening til she sleeps, and
then all day on the weekends (which is why it's so hard to work on our
house!).