A Room of One's Own
Beliavsky
and 2yo boys and a 1yo girl, if we buy a 4 bedroom house and use one
room as an office, and if we give the girl her own room, the eldest
boy will never have his own room. I think the boys will just have to
live with that, as billions of other kids have. We could look for a 5
bedroom house, but the children may be better off if we spend less on
a house and put the money in their college funds etc.
There is no "right" answer here, but I wonder what opinions people
have about this.
Jeff
You can always have the two younger kids share a room for the next seven
or eight years or so. Or buy a house with a cellar. When the brothers
are around 10 years old, you have a new project: building a cellar bedroom.
jeff
Clisby
I don't think kids *need* their own bedrooms - and especially not at the
ages of your children. My sister, eldest brother, and I all shared a
room until we were 8, 7, and 5, and we enjoyed it. We weren't alone,
so we weren't scared, and it made it easier to sneak out of bed and play
in the dark.
I got a room of my own when I was 14 - and the only way I swung that was
to move into the guest room and promise that any time we had guests, I'd
move back out with no complaint.
What works best may depend partly on what the rest of the house is like.
I like for a house to have places everybody can go for privacy, and
of course separate bedrooms is good for that. I've been in houses that
are basically a big living area, a kitchen, and bedrooms - so if you
don't have a bedroom to yourself, you have nowhere to yourself.
Clisby
Clisby
Beliavsky wrote:
I don't think kids *need* their own bedrooms - and especially not at the
Banty
Beliavsky says...
The boys will be fine with sharing a room, unless they get to be really
incompatible (only time would tell, and there probably won't be a problem).
As they grow to teens what might be better than their own rooms, would be a
finished basement or other area to retreat to, have their own TV, have a pool
table or whatever, for hobbies and entertaining and levels of noise that might
be too loud for the rest of the household.
Banty
jane...@gmail.com
I have two girls 1.5 years apart so my situation is a little bit
different from yours. We have a 4 br house. So we have a master br,
office and two bedrooms to spare. I want my kids to share a room. Just
because there are rooms doesn't mean everyone gets their own room. As
someone else mentioned, it really helped them sleep in their own room.
IIRC, you also want your 2yo out of your bed. Theoretically if he
shares a room with his older brother, he would be more relaxed, less
scared. Also, they have to clean up only one room, not two :)
The fourth bedroom in our house is furnished and labeled "guest room"
though we hardly ever have guests. This sounds like waste of space but
I don't like to over-indulge my kids.
Stephanie
"Beliavsky" <beli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bb3097e2-7790-463e...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
As the youngst of 7 children, I can tell you that need is difined
differently in different families. Where having one's own bedroom is a
physical impossibility, strangely we wind up not needing it. In my case...
ever. Until I moved out to college.
Ericka Kammerer
> I wonder at what age kids "need" to have their own bedrooms. With 4yo
> and 2yo boys and a 1yo girl, if we buy a 4 bedroom house and use one
> room as an office, and if we give the girl her own room, the eldest
> boy will never have his own room. I think the boys will just have to
> live with that, as billions of other kids have. We could look for a 5
> bedroom house, but the children may be better off if we spend less on
> a house and put the money in their college funds etc.
Lots of kids survive sharing rooms. We have a similar
situation. There came a point when the boys were around 8 and
10 when it became clear that they were not doing all that well
sharing a room. Their personalities are too different, and
not having their own space to retreat to was an issue. By the
time they were 10 and 12, our need to have an office was far
less important than their need to be in separate rooms. Now
that they have separate rooms, things are much better for all
of us.
Best wishes,
Ericka
hsch...@aol.com
Depending on your home office needs, it might be possible that office
space could be carved out elsewhere. I work at home, and we have a
four-bedroom house with an office in the upstairs hall (the file
cabinets are kept elsewhere). It's also entirely possible that a five-
bedroom house may be the same price as a four-bedroom, particularly if
one of the bedrooms is pretty small. The enormous price jump seemed to
me to come between three and four bedrooms (anything over three
bedrooms being quite unusual in our market already). The market in
your area may be very different, however.
We did end up remodeling a three-bedroom house into a four-bedroom
one, but there were lots of other problems besides the lack of a
bedroom. Formerly the master bedroom was in a converted attic space
that got very stuffy in the summer and had only a narrow stair going
up: we couldn't get a queen-size bed up the stairs. It also had
windows down by the floor that would have been incredibly unsafe for
young children. *Usable* space isn't always measured by the number of
rooms. We lived in a rental house during our remodel that was smaller
than our own, but had tons of storage, and it worked out quite well.
My daughters don't get along terribly well at the best of times, and
it was a relief to have them in their own rooms. I do think *our*
family is overall much better off for it, along with the other
benefits of enough space. But everyone needs space in a different way.
Some don't at all mind sharing sleeping space, but could really use
some kind of space for special projects. There are lots of creative
ways to handle stuff.
--Helen
Rosalie B.
My father (born in Colorado in 1904 as the second of 5 kids) shared
space with his two parents and his grandparents also lived with them.
They had a one bedroom house. The grandparents slept in the
parlor/living room, and the boys and their dad slept over the store.
My sister and I were 2.5 years apart, and we shared a room until I was
in 8th grade. We had a 3 bedroom house, and the front bedroom was the
'playroom', the middle bedroom was my parent's room, and the back
bedroom was ours. At that point we moved and my mom had one of the
upstairs rooms partitioned into two and added a bathroom up there, so
each of us got our own room, and my mom and dad slept downstairs and
turned the other bedroom down there into a study for my dad.
I have 4 children, but we moved around quite a bit. When we moved to
Key West, the two older girls (2 years apart) shared a room and the
baby (5 years younger) had the third bedroom. This is the way it was
until we moved to RI when I was pg with #4 to a 3 bedroom raised ranch
with a partly finished basement. Then dh and I added two bedrooms in
the basement, and everyone had their own room. When we moved here for
dh to go to Test Pilot School, there were 6 bedrooms, but we turned
one of them into a study and one of them (the little one over the
front hall) became a new bathroom. So the oldest child got her own
room, and the middle two girls shared and ds had his own room. As
soon as dh finished school, we gave her the study as her own bedroom.
When DD#1 got married, DD#3 got her room and we turned her former
bedroom back into a computer room.
Jeff
<...>
> What works best may depend partly on what the rest of the house is like.
> I like for a house to have places everybody can go for privacy, and of
> course separate bedrooms is good for that. I've been in houses that
> are basically a big living area, a kitchen, and bedrooms - so if you
> don't have a bedroom to yourself, you have nowhere to yourself.
I disagree. You can be by yourself in your own area of the bedroom.
My dad grew up with four brothers sharing not only the same room, but
the same bed! (His four sisters also shared a bed and a room.) He didn't
get a room of his own until he was 66, when his wife died. At least when
he went into the military, he was used to sharing the room with other
people, and he probably had more privacy.
He might have had his own room for a while while is brother was in the
military during the Korean war, though.
Jeff
> Clisby
Ericka Kammerer
> Clisby wrote:
>
> <...>
>
>> What works best may depend partly on what the rest of the house is
>> like. I like for a house to have places everybody can go for
>> privacy, and of course separate bedrooms is good for that. I've been
>> in houses that are basically a big living area, a kitchen, and
>> bedrooms - so if you don't have a bedroom to yourself, you have
>> nowhere to yourself.
>
> I disagree. You can be by yourself in your own area of the bedroom.
Some can, and some can't--at least not nearly as
easily. Sure, kids in large families don't have a choice,
but for some it comes at a cost, and children in smaller
families perhaps don't have as many opportunities to learn
the skills that might help them be more successful. There's
also no escaping that the kids in a three child family with
four bedrooms are quite clear that there is a room that could
be a bedroom if it wasn't an office. Knowing the opportunity
is there makes a difference, versus the large family where it's
crystal clear that several more bedrooms aren't going to materialize
out of nowhere.
I could have kept my boys sharing a room. They'd have
survived. They might have even learned to do it gracefully after
some period of time. Meanwhile, we were all dealing with the
fallout. It just wasn't a great situation, and we had the
opportunity to do something differently, and it improved
things fairly dramatically. Definitely worth the tradeoff, in
my opinion. No amount of trying to create private spaces within
the shared bedroom was sufficient to maintain the peace with
my two boys, so I'm glad there was another option for us.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Clisby
Jeff wrote:
> Clisby wrote:
>
> <...>
>
>> What works best may depend partly on what the rest of the house is
>> like. I like for a house to have places everybody can go for
>> privacy, and of course separate bedrooms is good for that. I've been
>> in houses that are basically a big living area, a kitchen, and
>> bedrooms - so if you don't have a bedroom to yourself, you have
>> nowhere to yourself.
>
>
> I disagree. You can be by yourself in your own area of the bedroom.
Sure, if no one else is in the bedroom at the time. Or if the person
you share the bedroom with has the same ideas about privacy and quiet.
Otherwise, no. I'm not talking about what people *need* - I'm talking
about what I think is pleasant.
Clisby
dejablues
"Beliavsky" <beli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bb3097e2-7790-463e...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
We have three boys and three bedrooms. DH and I have one, DS18 has one, and
DS14 and DS10 share the other.
We are in the process of converting our extra junk/office/storage room
into another bedroom so we can separate the younger boys, because they are
at each others' throats.
Office space will have to give way to living space so we don't all end up
dead.
MarieD
I'm very sorry for emailing you privately, I keep clicking the wrong button!
This has happened almost everytime I've posted to newsgroups since we
reformatted the computer and I am using Outlook Express instead of what I am
used to.
I think it's better for kids to have their own bedrooms. My 12 and 11 year
old girls shared a room until a few months ago when we bought a 4 bedroom
house. It was horrible for everyone, they did not have privacy, there was
always fighting whenever one wanted to be alone. It was either the two
oldest share a room and the youngest had her own room, or one of the older
ones had to share with a baby sister who would get into all their things and
mess up stuff. It has been so much more peaceful now that all the kids have
their own rooms. When kids are younger it's not a big deal to me, but when
they hit around 8 or so it seems to matter more.
I've been married for years now, and I STILL sleep better when dh is away
from home(which is one weekend every few years). I always hated when I had
to share a bedroom growing up. Most people I know seem to have enjoyed
sharing a bedroom, and I don't see how lol Where does one go for alone-time
if there is no bedroom? Can't stay in the bathroom, can't be alone in the
living room, if you go outside your siblings can't be stopped from going out
also.
Marie
Me Myself and I
If you want to avoid e-mailing privately instead of group from Outlook.
Make sure you are in the newsgroups bit (ie where you read them) then:
Right click in a blank space to the right of the send, paste, reply,
buttons.
Click "customize" then in the right hand column click on "reply to all"
Click remove (in middle of the two boxes)
Then click on the "reply" and do the remove bit again.
This way you will only click on reply to group when using the newsgroups :)
Also if you do want to reply to someone personally then just click on
'Message" at top of screen, then "Reply To Sender"
If you want to put them back or add or rearrange the icons you can do that
all from here.
--
Pip, in NZ
My girls :
DD1 Jasmine - 5 weeks early - March 02 - 4lb 12oz
Still as small as a peanut but as smart as a whip!
DD2 Abby - 8 weeks early - Feb 05 - 3lb 14oz
Two and a half and still a terror!!
"Yes you can drive me insane just by talking to me!"
"MarieD" <annad...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Hqusj.340$Gm1...@newsfe06.lga...
Jeff
<...>
> We have three boys and three bedrooms. DH and I have one, DS18 has one, and
> DS14 and DS10 share the other.
> We are in the process of converting our extra junk/office/storage room
> into another bedroom so we can separate the younger boys, because they are
> at each others' throats.
> Office space will have to give way to living space so we don't all end up
> dead.
Cheer up: Only one of you will end up dead. B-)
Of course, one will be in juvenile detention or jail.
Jeff
MarieD
news:fou1v3$3ed$1...@aioe.org...
> Pssst Marie
>
> If you want to avoid e-mailing privately instead of group from Outlook.
>
> Make sure you are in the newsgroups bit (ie where you read them) then:
>
> Right click in a blank space to the right of the send, paste, reply,
> buttons.
> Click "customize" then in the right hand column click on "reply to all"
> Click remove (in middle of the two boxes)
> Then click on the "reply" and do the remove bit again.
>
> This way you will only click on reply to group when using the newsgroups
> :) Also if you do want to reply to someone personally then just click on
> 'Message" at top of screen, then "Reply To Sender"
>
> If you want to put them back or add or rearrange the icons you can do that
> all from here.
Thanks so much for reminding me of that! When I am able to I will download
something else but this will help me so much for now.
Marie
Penny Gaines
I think both myself and my son need to have somewhere to go where we can
be on our own. In both our cases it was a bedroom to ourselves, but it
could have been some other corner, perhaps a den outside. (I find the
idea of a dedicated guest room when children are sharing rather odd.)
What would you be using the office for? Does it have to be taken from a
bedroom, or could it come out of some other space. In the UK, I have
seen people creating home-office space from hallways, from cupboards,
from an alcove in a bedroom or living room, from a garage and from a
shed outside.
Personally, with a family of three, we bought a four-bedroomed house and
each child has a bedroom. One of the bedrooms was used as an office
when the children were smaller.
--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three
Cathy Kearns
"Beliavsky" <beli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bb3097e2-7790-463e...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> and 2yo boys and a 1yo girl, if we buy a 4 bedroom house and use one
> room as an office, and if we give the girl her own room, the eldest
> boy will never have his own room. I think the boys will just have to
> live with that, as billions of other kids have. We could look for a 5
> bedroom house, but the children may be better off if we spend less on
> a house and put the money in their college funds etc.
I know we always think of our kids at tiny, but they do grow up, way faster
than we expect. Right now, the boys sharing a room while you have a
dedicated office you can close off so the little ones can't get into stuff
would work out well. When they are bigger (as others said, around 10 and
12) if the boys don't get along you can move the office to more public
space, your youngest would be old enough to know better than to get into
things. And then, in just 6 incredibly short years, you have your office
back. My oldest comes home from college, and though she has her own room,
she likes spending time with her younger sister on those short breaks. If
we had two beds in there I'm not sure she wouldn't prefer to stay in there.
And they don't come home for long, so if it's a bedroom/office, you only
have to share maybe 4 weeks a year. Two years later, you have the office
and a guest room. Three years later you have a big empty house.
jane...@gmail.com
> Beliavsky wrote:
> > I wonder at what age kids "need" to have their own bedrooms. With 4yo
> > and 2yo boys and a 1yo girl, if we buy a 4 bedroom house and use one
> > room as an office, and if we give the girl her own room, the eldest
> > boy will never have his own room. I think the boys will just have to
> > live with that, as billions of other kids have. We could look for a 5
> > bedroom house, but the children may be better off if we spend less on
> > a house and put the money in their college funds etc.
>
> > There is no "right" answer here, but I wonder what opinions people
> > have about this.
>
> I think both myself and my son need to have somewhere to go where we can
> be on our own. In both our cases it was a bedroom to ourselves, but it
> could have been some other corner, perhaps a den outside. (I find the
> idea of a dedicated guest room when children are sharing rather odd.)
Since I'm doing this, I'll chime in.
My kids are preschool age so they get along fine with each other and
actually miss each other if they are not together. As they grow up if
they ask for separate rooms they will have to own up to the duties
that come with "room ownership" like cleaning etc. Until they ask for
separate room, I'm not giving it to them :)
Banty
jane...@gmail.com says...
Sure that's reasonable and makes sense. Your earlier post sounded like you'd
hold back the extra room simply in order not to 'indulge' them. Who knows -
they may get along very well and be very close and continue to be in the same
bedroom.
But maybe not. Hopefully you'll know if and when they'd benefit by having
separate bedrooms even if they don't muster to actually ask for separate rooms.
And/or consider if that 'guest room' might be better used as a play room or TV
room/den or hobby room. In later years if not right now. For them or you
adults, not to get into each others' hair. :)
I think the responses you've seen here is that kids are neither dumb nor
endlessly forgiving - holding back family resources for no other real end other
than not to 'indulge' them would eventually backfire. I know people can and do
get along in tight quarters (I have five cousins all raised in one upstairs
bedroom, until the first girl got a bit older, then they two got a small room
halfway up the stairs ...) and survive nicely, but to have relief in front of
people in the household and have that held back for no real end is quite a
different thing.
Banty
Welches
"Banty" <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:fov5u...@drn.newsguy.com...
I know that as a child there were things that I would have loved and never
asked for because I thought there was no way they'd have been granted. In
some of those cases I've mentioned it and got the response that why on earth
didn't I ask because of course it would have been okay. (I have a friend
whose sister never asked for an icecream during the interval of a
performance as she thought she wouldn't be allowed it.-she only mentioned
this after she'd left home, still thinking this at age 18!)
Debbie
Ericka Kammerer
> I know we always think of our kids at tiny, but they do grow up, way
> faster than we expect. Right now, the boys sharing a room while you
> have a dedicated office you can close off so the little ones can't get
> into stuff would work out well. When they are bigger (as others said,
> around 10 and 12) if the boys don't get along you can move the office to
> more public space, your youngest would be old enough to know better than
> to get into things. And then, in just 6 incredibly short years, you
> have your office back. My oldest comes home from college, and though
> she has her own room, she likes spending time with her younger sister on
> those short breaks. If we had two beds in there I'm not sure she
> wouldn't prefer to stay in there. And they don't come home for long, so
> if it's a bedroom/office, you only have to share maybe 4 weeks a year.
> Two years later, you have the office and a guest room. Three years
> later you have a big empty house.
No kidding, the time does fly so very quickly. Every
once in a while I feel like we could stand more room, but then
I get to thinking that it will be only five (gulp!) short years
before we'll be getting DS1 ready to head off to college. I
still think of this as the "new" house, and we've already *been*
here five years! I'm not ready to think about sending the kids
off to college, but occasionally I am ready to think about having
an office back...and then a guest/needlework room...hmmmm... ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Beliavsky
> I think the responses you've seen here is that kids are neither dumb nor
> endlessly forgiving - holding back family resources for no other real end other
> than not to 'indulge' them would eventually backfire. I know people can and do
> get along in tight quarters (I have five cousins all raised in one upstairs
> bedroom, until the first girl got a bit older, then they two got a small room
> halfway up the stairs ...) and survive nicely, but to have relief in front of
> people in the household and have that held back for no real end is quite a
> different thing.
If I did set aside a room for an office rather than a bedroom for one
of the kids, I would try to make it a room the whole family could use
(though not all at the same time) for work/homework. I would not leave
a room unused just to make a point.
Me Myself and I
--
Pip, in NZ
My girls :
DD1 Jasmine - 5 weeks early - March 02 - 4lb 12oz
Still as small as a peanut but as smart as a whip!
DD2 Abby - 8 weeks early - Feb 05 - 3lb 14oz
Two and a half and still a terror!!
"Yes you can drive me insane just by talking to me!"
"MarieD" <annad...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:CZCsj.8$VN...@newsfe05.lga...
Anne Rogers
> I think both myself and my son need to have somewhere to go where we can
> be on our own. In both our cases it was a bedroom to ourselves, but it
> could have been some other corner, perhaps a den outside. (I find the
> idea of a dedicated guest room when children are sharing rather odd.)
Rather depends on the age of the child, we have 3 bedrooms, our room,
kids room and guest room. It won't last forever, particularly as we have
a boy and a girl, but right now the bedroom is only for sleeping and
they don't appear to have any problems with that. In fact my son is all
excited about when he can go on the top of the bunkbed and his sister
can be on the bottom, rather than him on the bottom and her in a toddler
bed.
Cheers
Anne
Anne Rogers
> No kidding, the time does fly so very quickly. Every
> once in a while I feel like we could stand more room, but then
> I get to thinking that it will be only five (gulp!) short years
> before we'll be getting DS1 ready to head off to college.
Realistically though, how many people do either move or convert that
quickly. It's 10 years since I started college, thinking through my
friends, I can think of only two who's parents have moved, one of those
was for a job that came with a house and the was an upsize not a
downsize. However, many of them had and probably still do have a plan to
eventually convert or downsize! My parents are now saying they will move
within the next 3 years, but then they were saying that 5 years ago! A
surprising number have ended up with a child move home or spend
significant time at home. Maybe habits stick and change becomes too much
of an effort, my parents use their house in exactly the same was as when
there was 4 of us living there, they moved their old computer in to what
was my bedroom, but I've never seen any evidence of it actually being
use. Same with storage, most things my sister or I left empty have not
been filled.
Anne
Ericka Kammerer
>
>> No kidding, the time does fly so very quickly. Every
>> once in a while I feel like we could stand more room, but then
>> I get to thinking that it will be only five (gulp!) short years
>> before we'll be getting DS1 ready to head off to college.
>
> Realistically though, how many people do either move or convert that
> quickly.
Can't speak for everyone, but things changed pretty
darned quickly at my parents' home ;-) I was welcomed back,
and there was room for me to stay when needed, and they held
onto my possessions that wouldn't fit in a dorm room/small
apartment until I was in a position to take them, but it
wasn't my room anymore. Same with my sister when she went
off to school.
I don't feel an urge to downsize. My parents are
in pretty much the same home we're in (mirror image floor
plan, but they've made some modifications), and they use
the entire home with just the two of them in there. If I
had no kids, I'd be thrilled to have a library, a needlework
room, an office, and a guest room (two of those would have to
double up, but I haven't decided which two ;-) ). My parents
use the three other bedrooms as an office and two guest rooms
(they have a lot of visitors and one of the guest rooms is
frequently occupied by one or more of my kids).
I would always want to be able to accommodate my
kids coming home for summers from college or for other
short stints if needed, but I don't feel any need to maintain
their childhood rooms for all eternity (or even a decade or
two). I've got plenty of ways to use those rooms, and I
don't see any reason why they should essentially sit unused
for the better part of the year when I can make better use
of them and still accommodate kids when needed.
I think the big question when DS1 leaves is going
to be whether DS2 gets to move into DS1's current room
(downstairs with its own bathroom) or if he'll stay in his
current room. Betcha he wants DS1's room, but that's
the better room for an office. Guess we'll cross that bridge
when we get there.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Nikki
"Beliavsky" <beli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:bb3097e2-7790-463e...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> and 2yo boys and a 1yo girl, if we buy a 4 bedroom house and use one
> room as an office, and if we give the girl her own room, the eldest
> boy will never have his own room. I think the boys will just have to
> live with that, as billions of other kids have. We could look for a 5
> bedroom house, but the children may be better off if we spend less on
> a house and put the money in their college funds etc.
>
> There is no "right" answer here, but I wonder what opinions people
> have about this.
We have two kids in each room. The older two are 6yo and 8yo. I drives us
all nuts. I think for them they still like it but I really wish they had
separate spaces. For one thing, my older son needs quiet time and my
younger son could never get enough people time. We do have other areas of
the house but they are young enough that it is hard to get them to realize
what they need.
Even if we re-do the basement to put a room down there two kids will share.
It isn't the end of the world of course but it is nice if everyone could
have their own.
--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06
Rosalie B.
>Anne Rogers wrote:
>>
>>> No kidding, the time does fly so very quickly. Every
>>> once in a while I feel like we could stand more room, but then
>>> I get to thinking that it will be only five (gulp!) short years
>>> before we'll be getting DS1 ready to head off to college.
>>
>> Realistically though, how many people do either move or convert that
>> quickly.
>
Right after dh and I were married, we lived with my folks for a month.
I moved back with my parents with three kids for about a year and a
half while dh was mostly gone. Also I spend a year living with my mom
(after my dad died) while I was a trainee for a job that was near her
but 100 miles from me.
She spend some time trying to get rid of our 'stuff' but there was
still quite a bit there when she died. It took us 15 months to clear
out the house, and I have to remember to call a cleaning lady and an
organization person to get me ready to finish the job.
My dd#1 moved back with us with her dh when their landlord decided to
redo their apartment. They then moved in with HIS parents for a
couple of years. Then they moved and his parents lived with them in
the basement. Her MIL babysat the kids when they came home from
school and often cooked dinner. Her oldest son lived at home for some
time after HS.
cjra
> "Beliavsky" <beliav...@aol.com> wrote in message
Ditto. As #7 of 8, I lived without my own bedroom and did just fine. I
do have a need for privacy, and somehow learned to find my private
'space" (often that was outside).
My kids won't have their own room (assuming we have more than 1),
simply because that's not an option in our house.
Anne Rogers
> I would always want to be able to accommodate my
> kids coming home for summers from college or for other
> short stints if needed, but I don't feel any need to maintain
> their childhood rooms for all eternity (or even a decade or
> two). I've got plenty of ways to use those rooms, and I
> don't see any reason why they should essentially sit unused
> for the better part of the year when I can make better use
> of them and still accommodate kids when needed.
I can't remember where I read or heard this, but it seems to have
cropped up in several places, the feelings that children have when they
go away to college and return home to find their room converted. I know
we can't hang on to our rooms forever but it seems like there are an
awful lot of negative emotions when a room does get converted as soon as
possible. I know that for the friend whose parents moved very early in
our time at college, although they allocated her a room, moved all her
stuff into it etc. she felt like it wasn't her home, but nor was her
dorm room her home either, I don't think she felt settled until she was
living somewhere year round rather than just term time.
A magazine I picked up yesterday at the doctors office had some real
life stories of women who are turned their lives around, one had been
bulimic, in her account of how that started, she included coming home
for christmas after the first term of college to find her room
converted. I think I'd want to tread very carefully in this area.
I taught first year college students for 5 years and I think it's a very
intense time of life, potentially a very unstable one and one that
different people handle very differently, it's also a time when young
adults are wanting to prove their independence and create a life for
themselves, so it may well be harder to get to the bottom of their
emotions and feelings surrounding rooms and space. There is enough
interweaving of needs and emotions that the face value logic may well
not turn out to be the best solution.
Cheers
Anne
Ericka Kammerer
>
>> I would always want to be able to accommodate my
>> kids coming home for summers from college or for other
>> short stints if needed, but I don't feel any need to maintain
>> their childhood rooms for all eternity (or even a decade or
>> two). I've got plenty of ways to use those rooms, and I
>> don't see any reason why they should essentially sit unused
>> for the better part of the year when I can make better use
>> of them and still accommodate kids when needed.
>
> I can't remember where I read or heard this, but it seems to have
> cropped up in several places, the feelings that children have when they
> go away to college and return home to find their room converted. I know
> we can't hang on to our rooms forever but it seems like there are an
> awful lot of negative emotions when a room does get converted as soon as
> possible. I know that for the friend whose parents moved very early in
> our time at college, although they allocated her a room, moved all her
> stuff into it etc. she felt like it wasn't her home, but nor was her
> dorm room her home either, I don't think she felt settled until she was
> living somewhere year round rather than just term time.
To be perfectly honest, I think at that stage of one's
life, it's time to buck up. You're making the transition to
adulthood. If your parents still have a place for you and welcome
you home during school breaks, the fact that they haven't enshrined
your childhood room for posterity shouldn't be an issue (in my
opinion). I also think that needing to have one's childhood room
enshrined is probably an indication of a larger problem at work.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Banty
Well, yeah. It's taking over what once was one's own, a bit too quick, as if
there was a thought all along that that room could be put to better use, and the
adult child was just taking up needed space. It's human. Like the reaction if
a lover who left got another lover right away, vs. after a few months. Makes a
person feel all the more dumped. Even though it makes no practical difference.
Remember that carpet ad? I think it got changed a bit as it was a bit heavy on
the "good he's finally gone" bit at the beginning.
In my growing up my family moved while I was in college; it wasn't really an
issue (more a matter of other circumstances driving things vs. underlying
attitudes being really clear), but, jees, think about it. I plan to make some
repairs and repainting (same colors), and thoroughly clean my son's bedroom and
downstairs den/hobby area as soon as he's in college. But taking right over and
converting the areas and making him something like a guest in the home where he
grew up would be a bit cold.
Banty
Banty
says...
I think it's a matter of timing. Transition times are good. And most adult
kids have some back-and-forth during the first years - a place to crash if the
new roommate doesn't turn out to be so pleasant, college breaks, etc.
Now if there is some pressing need like an elder moving in, that would be a
factor. But coming home to a bedroom turned into a home office, for the holiday
break freshman year of college would be a bit chilling to most young people I
think.
Banty
Ericka Kammerer
Well, and I doubt that most parents would be moving fast
enough to have all that accomplished so quickly anyway ;-) But
I don't think expecting that the childhood room will be the same
upon graduation from college is all that reasonable either, much
less for years beyond that. I mean really, how adult is it to
expect that your parents will have rooms in their house sitting
unused for nine months out of every year?
I wouldn't dismantle the room the day after my child left
for college, but I wouldn't feel compelled to let a room sit
that fallow for years on end while the people living in the
home year round are cramped for space either.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Banty
says...
But Anne was referring to during college years, I think.
I think it depends on the particulars and there's a gradation to graduation :-)
By time job applications are going out and the last summer or two were on a trip
abroad and an internship, it would be one thing, the room being converted the
freshman year would be another. Closing the door to being able to live in the
same surroundings while working the first summer in the old home town, for
example. I think Anne is referring to parents who pull the empty-nest switch a
little too quick as in "yahoo they're gone".
> I wouldn't dismantle the room the day after my child left
>for college, but I wouldn't feel compelled to let a room sit
>that fallow for years on end while the people living in the
>home year round are cramped for space either.
Well, no of course not. Again, it depends on the particulars. Losing a room to
an elder moving in or a little sister finally getting a bedroom to herself would
be quite a different feeling from coming home to find a seldom used guest room
with totally changed decor.
People *do* do those things to purge someone, you know. One of my immediate
neighbor's marriage broke up in a huge dramatic scene with the spouse and kiddos
hastily packing up to move far away :( Once the husband got over the shock and
lawyered up, he painted the lilac out of the dining room and the pink out of the
master bedroom and changed window coverings in just those rooms. And its not
like he's normally a HGTV-watching kind of guy (by a long shot.) He was making
a psychological change. The kiddos' rooms are staying just as they are (for
their future re-occupation, he intends).
Banty
hsch...@aol.com
>
>
> I think it depends on the particulars and there's a gradation to graduation �:-)
>
> By time job applications are going out and the last summer or two were on a trip
> abroad and an internship, it would be one thing, the room being converted the
> freshman year would be another. �Closing the door to being able to live in the
> same surroundings while working the first summer in the old home town, for
> example. �I think Anne is referring to parents who pull the empty-nest switch a
> little too quick as in "yahoo they're gone".
My parents *rented* my room as soon as I went to college. I didn't
mind that much myself, but I could easily see how someone could. My
friends all thought it was pretty cold.
--Helen
Ericka Kammerer
That's what I mean--if the kid's away at college, then
the room is virtually unused for nine months out of the year
(maybe a little less, depending on the college's schedule).
Obviously, I wasn't suggesting booting the student out if
attending a local college and living at home ;-)
And this example of a child whose parents moved early
into the college career and moved the child's stuff and had
a room, but that wasn't good enough because it didn't *feel*
like "home," well, that's a bit over the top to me. What were
the parents supposed to do?
My family moved just before I went off to college,
so I was only in "my" room for a few weeks before heading
off to college. I can't imagine having my nose out of joint
because the room my parents were graciously providing wasn't
"homey" enough, and I certainly didn't feel like it was
inappropriate for them to make the room more suitable so
that they could have a guest room for the majority of the
year I was away, or a desperately needed office (both my
parents were in college at the same time I was).
> People *do* do those things to purge someone, you know.
Sure, and perhaps one might be somewhat justified
if one's parents had rooms out the wazoo such that having
a room unused most of the year made no nevermind. But to
think that one's parents have some obligation to stake out
significant space in the home as largely unusable most of
the year in order to preserve the delicate sensibilities
of a normal, healthy adult whose education the parents are
likely subsidizing is just beyond my comprehension. I'd
agree that if there are larger issues to deal with, then
perhaps one has to proceed with caution, but I just think
it's rather an incredible amount of arrogance and entitlement
to think that everyone else should leave your room as an
untouched shrine when you're not even around to use it most
of the year.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Rosalie B.
I don't agree. My mom kept my room and my sister's room - and we
returned home for various periods and felt welcomed. Mom did
sometimes let other people stay there, and in one case a student lived
with her for a semester upstairs in my room. But it was still my room
until she died.
I have kept my children's bedrooms to a certain extent also. We did
move dd#3 into dd#1s room and made dd#3's original room back into a
study after dd#1 graduated from college and moved into a house, but
they weren't usually here at the same time. Mostly that room is the
default guest room, and ds's room is the room for the grandchildren as
it has bunk beds. DD#1 lived here with her husband for a summer in
her old room.
Ericka Kammerer
> Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I wouldn't dismantle the room the day after my child left
>> for college, but I wouldn't feel compelled to let a room sit
>> that fallow for years on end while the people living in the
>> home year round are cramped for space either.
>>
> I don't agree. My mom kept my room and my sister's room - and we
> returned home for various periods and felt welcomed. Mom did
> sometimes let other people stay there, and in one case a student lived
> with her for a semester upstairs in my room. But it was still my room
> until she died.
Different strokes, I guess. For myself, I can't make
sense of the idea that a significant portion of my home
should be off limits to more practical uses in order to
maintain a space for children who are grown adults with
homes of their own. Again, I could perhaps make sense of
that if we had more space than we knew what to do with, but
we have good alternative uses for those spaces. I expect
my children to come home during breaks from school, and welcome
them to do so, but I do expect them to fly the nest at some point ;-)
I certainly don't have any hard feelings that my childhood room
no longer exists! I would actually think it rather odd if it
did.
Best wishes,
Ericka
toypup
> Rosalie B. wrote:
>> Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> I wouldn't dismantle the room the day after my child left
>>> for college, but I wouldn't feel compelled to let a room sit
>>> that fallow for years on end while the people living in the
>>> home year round are cramped for space either.
>>>
>> I don't agree. My mom kept my room and my sister's room - and we
>> returned home for various periods and felt welcomed. Mom did
>> sometimes let other people stay there, and in one case a student lived
>> with her for a semester upstairs in my room. But it was still my room
>> until she died.
>
> Different strokes, I guess. For myself, I can't make
> sense of the idea that a significant portion of my home
> should be off limits to more practical uses in order to
> maintain a space for children who are grown adults with
> homes of their own.
I think the key for most people is when the room is converted immediately
when there is no pressing reason and the grown child has just recently
moved out to a dorm or some other temporary college housing and really
doesn't have a "home of their own." Until they actually get a "home of
their own," it is nice to know they actually have a place that feels like
home. A guest room just doesn't feel very inviting to someone who used to
actually live there.
It is different if there is a need, or if more time has elapsed or if the
child has found more permanent housing.
Ericka Kammerer
True, but I think different people have different
interpretations of that timing. I agree with Banty that it's
a time of transition, but I think it's transition on both sides,
not a transition where the child is owed a totally dedicated
private space at the parents' home. The child is gaining independence,
and may not have a permanent home of his or her own, but is building
a life apart from his or her parents. Personally, I don't think it's
unreasonable that one corollary of that is that the child's room at
the parents home starts to transition away from being 100 percent
the child's personal space, *especially* when that space would be
useful to someone else. And I think it's the *reality* that once
one begins that move away from one's parents' home, that place is
no longer home in the way it used to be. You're *supposed* to
be looking forward to making your own way in the world and finding
your own home, even though everyone understands it will take years
to finish that transition.
So, again, I wouldn't gut the room and totally redecorate
and put the child's stuff in long term storage the day after
the child leaves for college, but I wouldn't see a thing wrong
with minor changes to make the room more suitable as a guest room
or office or whatever the family needs, even early in the child's
college career. And I surely wouldn't expect my parents to die
with my childhood room still available in their home, nor would
I even think to maintain my children's rooms after they were gone
and married and with families of their own, as is apparently the
case for Rosalie. (Obviously, it's her prerogative to do so and
I don't have to understand it, but I don't think it's something
that is *owed* to any normal, healthy child--not that she suggested
it was a requirement.)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Akuvikate
>
> - Show quoted text -
Gradually transitioning makes sense, yes. And in all likelihood the
kid can be a part of that process -- ie, take some stuff off the
walls, maybe clear out some space in a bookcase, etc. I wonder too,
Ericka, if part of how you feel about this is shaped by the fact that
you moved a lot as a kid and probably were never that emotionallly
attached to a house or room. My parents have been in the same house
since I was 5 years old, I've moved back in and out a couple of times
as an adult, and it's no longer clear if my old room should be called
"Kate's room" or "The Bug's room", as my daughter now spends one day a
week with that as her playroom when my parents babysit. Our wedding
album starts out with pictures of me and my bridesmaids getting ready
in my old room. My room certainly no longer looks like it did when I
was in high school, but there's still some of my stuff in there
precisely because there's nothing more pressing to do with the space.
Even now, grown and married with a kid (almost two) of my own it'll be
a sad, sad day for me when my parents leave that house. Unless it's
because our family (as in me, DH, the Bug, and Little Dude) is moving
in.
Kate, ignorant foot soldier of the medical cartel
and the Bug, 4 and a half
and something brewing, 4/08
Rosalie B.
But you see, nowadays not everyone moved out/on right away after
college. Especially I understand in Great Britain where the children
may not be able to afford their own housing.
If there is a need for the room - that is if there are younger
siblings that are sharing, then the college person can be a part of
changing the house - they will then understand the need. But just to
have a sewing room or a place to do one's stamp collection or
something - doesn't need to have the room completely redecorated. And
I would not think that a guest room would be any kind of requirement
for the family and I think 'redecorating' for that would be a complete
waste of money. Guests can certainly stay in the absent child's room
without having to redo the room completely.
Once one has the family house, with rooms for the various occupants,
it's not really necessary or even possible to downsize at once unless
one moves house as soon as the children leave the household. With
four children, the last two times we moved, we got or remodeled to
obtain a house with 5 bedrooms and a couple of bathrooms. We lived
out in the country so we could do that. And we are in the same house
that we moved to last - it has 5 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms.
We don't use the rooms most of the time, so we shut off the heat to
those rooms and close the doors. But there's no need to redecorate or
shovel out the children's possessions to the dump because we don't
have any other real use for most of the rooms. They are used for
storage mostly as we have no basement and not much of an attic.
My children have been better than I was about voluntarily cleaning
their stuff out of their rooms. For instance, my mom gave dd#3 an
antique spool bed that belonged to my great great grandparents. She
slept in it as a child, and she has that bed in her home now. (Or
actually her MIL has it in her spare bedroom now.) She also has my
mom's old school desk and dresser in her dd's room.
cjra
This conversation is funny. In my parents' house when one kid moved
out another took over their room. There was no 'transition', you
moved out you gave up your room. My eldest sister always laughs
because she finally got her own room when she was 17, a few months
before she moved out for college. Sister #3 took it over immediately.
When I moved out, 3 siblings still lived at home and everyone had
their own room, so my room became the guest room for couples - out
with the twin beds, they bought a new queen bed. There was nothing of
'mine' left in it.
FTR - I lived in the same house all my growing up years, my parents
sold it only a few years ago (after 35+ years there). However it was
in a state of renovation over 15 years or so, and we all fluctuated
rooms so much no one ever got too attached to one room.
Ericka Kammerer
> Gradually transitioning makes sense, yes. And in all likelihood the
> kid can be a part of that process -- ie, take some stuff off the
> walls, maybe clear out some space in a bookcase, etc. I wonder too,
> Ericka, if part of how you feel about this is shaped by the fact that
> you moved a lot as a kid and probably were never that emotionallly
> attached to a house or room.
I'm sure that's part of it. My focus was always on the
family, and to a lesser extent on the "stuff" rather than the
walls, floor and ceiling. But I think part of it was also just
that I was raised to believe that there would come a time when
I was to be an adult and make my own way in the world. Even as
a freshman in college, I'd have lived on Ramen for a month
rather than call and ask for money from my parents. I felt
that it was a time for me to take care of myself to the
maximum extent possible (which wasn't 100 percent at that time,
but I was darned well going to do what I could). I just wouldn't
have had the gall to tell my parents that they couldn't use
my room while I was gone because I knew I was a short-timer
at that point in my parents' home. Sure, there could have been
circumstances that would have forced me back there longer term,
and they would have been happy to accommodate (in fact I did live
there for a year between undergrad and grad school because I knew
it was only going to be a one year break and they offered), but
I always felt a little like a guest in the home after leaving
for college because in my opinion, I *was* a guest. They'd
fulfilled their obligation to keep a roof over my head, and
the rest was just gravy.
> My parents have been in the same house
> since I was 5 years old, I've moved back in and out a couple of times
> as an adult, and it's no longer clear if my old room should be called
> "Kate's room" or "The Bug's room", as my daughter now spends one day a
> week with that as her playroom when my parents babysit. Our wedding
> album starts out with pictures of me and my bridesmaids getting ready
> in my old room. My room certainly no longer looks like it did when I
> was in high school, but there's still some of my stuff in there
> precisely because there's nothing more pressing to do with the space.
As I said before, if there really is nothing more pressing
to do with the space, that's one thing. That just wasn't the
scenario for my parents when I went off to school, nor will it
likely be the case when my kids go off to school.
> Even now, grown and married with a kid (almost two) of my own it'll be
> a sad, sad day for me when my parents leave that house. Unless it's
> because our family (as in me, DH, the Bug, and Little Dude) is moving
> in.
I can understand being sentimental about a house as
a part of one's history, and I've certainly had those feelings.
Maybe I'm just more ruthless than the average bear, but while
I feel those feelings, I can't see letting past memories stand
in the way of living the life that seems appropriate for the
present. Take a photograph, preserve a bit of memorabilia,
take something from the old and incorporate it into the new,
but life moves on.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> But you see, nowadays not everyone moved out/on right away after
> college. Especially I understand in Great Britain where the children
> may not be able to afford their own housing.
Different cultures have different ground rules, so I
can't speak to what would be appropriate for the UK.
> If there is a need for the room - that is if there are younger
> siblings that are sharing, then the college person can be a part of
> changing the house - they will then understand the need. But just to
> have a sewing room or a place to do one's stamp collection or
> something - doesn't need to have the room completely redecorated. And
> I would not think that a guest room would be any kind of requirement
> for the family and I think 'redecorating' for that would be a complete
> waste of money. Guests can certainly stay in the absent child's room
> without having to redo the room completely.
But my opinion is that it's the parents' home, they've
fulfilled their obligation to the child, having gotten him or
her to adulthood, and further housing is a *favor* to the child,
not a right. I think it would be a bit cold of parents to turn
the kid out and tell them never to come back after the start of
the freshman year, but the notion that the child is somehow
owed that room despite it not being in use for the majority
of the year strikes me as very odd. And it's not the child's
place to judge what the parent or family "needs." If the
younger sibs have shared rooms all along, clearly they don't
absolutely *need* to take over the college-bound sib's room,
but it sure as heck doesn't make a lot of sense to me to insist
they continue sharing. *You* may not see a guest room as
necessary, but my parents have so many houseguests that they
keep *two* guest rooms in pretty hot rotation. Different
families have different needs.
> We don't use the rooms most of the time, so we shut off the heat to
> those rooms and close the doors. But there's no need to redecorate or
> shovel out the children's possessions to the dump because we don't
> have any other real use for most of the rooms. They are used for
> storage mostly as we have no basement and not much of an attic.
Again, *YOU* have the room and feel you don't have much
need for that space. My point, as I said previously, was that
many families, including mine, *do* have alternative uses for
the space that make a lot more sense (to me) than letting
that space lie largely dormant.
> My children have been better than I was about voluntarily cleaning
> their stuff out of their rooms. For instance, my mom gave dd#3 an
> antique spool bed that belonged to my great great grandparents. She
> slept in it as a child, and she has that bed in her home now. (Or
> actually her MIL has it in her spare bedroom now.) She also has my
> mom's old school desk and dresser in her dd's room.
When I had a home of my own that was credibly big enough
to hold all my stuff, my Dad was up in the attic moving my
stuff out ;-) I didn't mind. It wasn't his job to play storage
shed for all my stuff! If it was important enough to keep, it
was important enough for me to find space for it myself. The
funny thing was the ensuing debates with him trying to shove
stuff out of the attic and me standing below saying, "THAT'S
NOT *MINE*, DAD!!!" Now, when they're getting rid of stuff
they think I might be sentimental about, they give me a call
and give me or my sister first dibs on it before it goes out.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Beliavsky
> Sure, there could have been
> circumstances that would have forced me back there longer term,
> and they would have been happy to accommodate (in fact I did live
> there for a year between undergrad and grad school because I knew
> it was only going to be a one year break and they offered), but
> I always felt a little like a guest in the home after leaving
> for college because in my opinion, I *was* a guest. They'd
> fulfilled their obligation to keep a roof over my head, and
> the rest was just gravy.
Legally, the parental obligation to house the child may end at age 18,
but I think when the children should leave home should depend on their
career and educational needs and on when they get married. If my kids
wanted to live at home during college or graduate school to save money
or while they worked after high school, that ought to be fine. What
would just the two of us do with a 4 bedroom house anyway? Since my
wife and I intend to pay for their college expenses (provided they
have worked hard in school and tried to obtain merit-based
scholarships), and since room and board costs about $10K a year, their
living at home during college would save us $40K. Maybe our giving a
child $40K for a down payment on a house after he or she graduated
from college would better encourage independence in the long term.
Of course, when my kids become teenagers, I may be singing a different
tune. But I hope not.
Caledonia
> Rosalie B. wrote:
> > But you see, nowadays not everyone moved out/on right away after
> > college. Especially I understand in Great Britain where the children
> > may not be able to afford their own housing.
>
> Different cultures have different ground rules, so I
> can't speak to what would be appropriate for the UK.
>
> > If there is a need for the room - that is if there are younger
> > siblings that are sharing, then the college person can be a part of
> > changing the house - they will then understand the need. But just to
> > have a sewing room or a place to do one's stamp collection or
> > something - doesn't need to have the room completely redecorated. And
> > I would not think that a guest room would be any kind of requirement
> > for the family and I think 'redecorating' for that would be a complete
> > waste of money. Guests can certainly stay in the absent child's room
> > without having to redo the room completely.
>
> But my opinion is that it's the parents' home, they've
> fulfilled their obligation to the child, having gotten him or
> her to adulthood, and further housing is a *favor* to the child,
> not a right.
For us, once we went to college, we were always welcome to move back
home, with the expectation that we would be paying rent and a share of
other expenses. Our situation sounds similar to cjra's, where siblings
are moving into a 'new' room as someone is packing up to leave.
My parents were emotionally supportive, and did contribute what they
could to our college expenses (I was a Pell Grant recipient), but the
decision-making for what to do during winter break and summers off in
college came down to cold hard financial calculations. It would have
been cheaper to pay rent at home, but the jobs weren't there -- once I
went to college, I never 'lived' at home again, and had no expectation
of doing so. In my family, the standard 'joke' goobye was 'write if
you find work!'
It would have been strange for my parents to maintain a room for
someone who isn't there. I think there are a lot of ways of finding
'alone time and space' even amidst a crowd, and I believe it's a
helpful skill to cultivate; without this skill, living in dorm room
(non-single), working in a cubicle, riding public transportation,
flying coach weekly -- I can't see how this could be bearable.
Caledonia
Banty
Caledonia says...
It's quite a different thing to find alone "mental space" among strangers than
among friends or family.
Banty
Banty
Beliavsky says...
>
>On Feb 15, 7:08=A0am, Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Sure, there could have been
>> circumstances that would have forced me back there longer term,
>> and they would have been happy to accommodate (in fact I did live
>> there for a year between undergrad and grad school because I knew
>> it was only going to be a one year break and they offered), but
>> I always felt a little like a guest in the home after leaving
>> fulfilled their obligation to keep a roof over my head, and
>> the rest was just gravy.
>
>Legally, the parental obligation to house the child may end at age 18,
>but I think when the children should leave home should depend on their
>career and educational needs and on when they get married. If my kids
>wanted to live at home during college or graduate school to save money
>or while they worked after high school, that ought to be fine. What
>would just the two of us do with a 4 bedroom house anyway? Since my
>wife and I intend to pay for their college expenses (provided they
>have worked hard in school and tried to obtain merit-based
>scholarships), and since room and board costs about $10K a year, their
>living at home during college would save us $40K. Maybe our giving a
>child $40K for a down payment on a house after he or she graduated
>from college would better encourage independence in the long term.
>
>Of course, when my kids become teenagers, I may be singing a different
>tune. But I hope not.
This is typical of the attitudes my coworkers have who are from (or are first
generation born in the US from..) India and China. Which is not one bit a
criticism. Family obligations to each other are much more extensive than for a
lot of Americans, with our rather individualistic culture. The parents'
obligations to their children even as they're grown, and children's obligations
to parents until their death. I've had several coworkers drop high-power
technical careers in the U.S. leave to return to India or China upon a parents
death or dotage, sometimes also to take up the family business. If for one
reason or another it falls to them (eldest son, for example). But those same
people also often had down payments for their houses paid for by parents, even
in their 30's, and members of the family will have flown around the world to
take up residence for some years while the childlren are little and both parents
work at said high level careers.
It's not wrong at all, it's just different. Large in both benefits and burdens.
Banty
Rosalie B.
>Akuvikate wrote:
>
>> Gradually transitioning makes sense, yes. And in all likelihood the
>> kid can be a part of that process -- ie, take some stuff off the
>> walls, maybe clear out some space in a bookcase, etc. I wonder too,
>> Ericka, if part of how you feel about this is shaped by the fact that
>> you moved a lot as a kid and probably were never that emotionallly
>> attached to a house or room.
>
> I'm sure that's part of it. My focus was always on the
>family, and to a lesser extent on the "stuff" rather than the
>walls, floor and ceiling. But I think part of it was also just
>that I was raised to believe that there would come a time when
>I was to be an adult and make my own way in the world. Even as
>a freshman in college, I'd have lived on Ramen for a month
>rather than call and ask for money from my parents. I felt
>that it was a time for me to take care of myself to the
>maximum extent possible (which wasn't 100 percent at that time,
Maybe that is the difference. I was expected to manage my money - my
mom gave me $100 in travelers checks at the beginning of the semester
to cover my expenses outside of room and board, and that included
books in those days (this was c 1956), but if I had needed more money,
I could have asked and wouldn't have hesitated to do so. I lived in a
co-op to save money, and typed papers for people (before computers
obviously). But my mom expected a phone call every week, and a lot of
letters. I also sent my laundry home for her to do. So maybe it was
that she wasn't ready to let go and it is more about the attitude of
the parent than the attitude of the child..
She told me that she visited her grandparents every Sunday and that
included time that she was home from college and the year after she
graduated before she married my dad. She did not marry for a year
after college because she promised my grandmother that she would wait,
and she came home during that year and lived with her parents and
worked retail.
She wrote us and she expected us to write back. I have the four years
of letters that she wrote to my grandmother while she was in college,
and also the letters that my grandmother wrote back. My grandmother's
letters usually started out by complaining that she hadn't gotten a
letter, or else that the letter she got wasn't long enough - and my
grandmother wrote just about every day. My grandmother (who lost one
of her two children when he was young) was a very needy woman - my mom
didn't put that kind of pressure on me - thankfully. Whether because
she knew what it was like and didn't want to repeat it or because she
knew me well enough to know that it would not be effective, I don't
know.
As for the child who no longer felt she had a home because her parents
moved - I can understand that, although it is a little extreme. I
will not be going to my 50th college reunion next year because I feel
that I no longer have any real connection to the place. (And I'm not
giving them any money either)
The co-op dorm where I lived and worked and ate for 3 years has been
razed and is a parking lot. The dorm across the street is gone. The
buildings where I did my major classes in zoology and botany are gone.
The library has been reduced to being the admissions office and a big
new one has been built. The gym has been razed and rebuilt. One of
the classroom buildings is now a community art center. The
bakery/college bookstore is gone and there is a new bookstore. The
place where I practiced piano and organ and had music classes is gone
and there's a new building there now. My freshman dorm has been
changed into a men's co-op. The art museum and the auditoriums are
there, and the quad and the old movie theatre, but it isn't really MY
college anymore, and most of my friends were in other classes. I went
to my 45th and saw the friends I wanted to see - I have no need to go
to the 50th.
Jeff
> I lived in a
> co-op to save money, and typed papers for people (before computers
> obviously).
Actually, they had computers back then. They were two expensive for use
a word processor, though.
However, some people did type their papers and theses on punch cards and
just printed what was on punch cards. Of course, you ended up with a
big box of punch cards. you'd better be careful not to drop it and mix
them all up.
Jeff
Rosalie B.
I'm not sure that people when I went to college had the option of
punch cards. DH used punch cards for computer programming in the mid
60s (c 1965), but I don't think that we had that - at least where I
went to school in the mid to late 50s. Any computers that they had
would have been in the business office.
I was using carbon paper - one to four carbons. I think I got 25cents
a page and 5 cents extra for each carbon. Fabric ribbon and no
electric typewriter (although we did have them then). No correcting
tape. Mistakes had to be erased on the original and each carbon and
retyped.
In 1959 when I was hired as a permanent substitute teacher and office
worker at Pensacola HS, I was given the job of calculating the GPAs of
the senior class. Knowing my arithmetic was terrible, I asked for an
adding machine. So they borrowed one from the business department.
Then I said - well this one only adds and subtracts - how about giving
me one that divides too? So they got another machine. But the second
machine didn't produce a hard copy tape, so I added the grades on one
machine, and divided on the second one. Then I wrote the result on
the tape and attached it to the grade card. Someone else went along
behind me and did it all over again by hand, just as a check.
When dh went to Test Pilot School in 1973, he had to buy a
programmable calculator - I remember it as an expensive option - it
cost $500.00.
Anne Rogers
> And this example of a child whose parents moved early
> into the college career and moved the child's stuff and had
> a room, but that wasn't good enough because it didn't *feel*
> like "home," well, that's a bit over the top to me. What were
> the parents supposed to do?
I wasn't suggesting they should have done anything different, nor did
she at the time, it was more that she had a confused an unsettled
feeling, that she hadn't expected she'd have, she was excited about her
parents move, she was excited to be able to invite her college friends
and her school friends for a party as they had the space. It was just
later she commented how unsettled she had felt - I don't think it had
any actual affect on her, it was more just a note of feelings she hadn't
expected.
It amazed me how many apparently well adjusted, happy, content 18 year
olds had some kind of issues over the next couple of years. It seems
that quite often the expectation of the child is quite different to that
of the parents - and I don't think you can place the blame for that on
the child, where do their expectations come from? What the parents might
see as a straight forward and logical use of space might not seem that
way to the kid and it's all very well saying it's "probably an
indication of a larger problem at work", but where did that problem
originate?
Anne
Anne Rogers
> Different strokes, I guess. For myself, I can't make
> sense of the idea that a significant portion of my home
> should be off limits to more practical uses in order to
> maintain a space for children who are grown adults with
> homes of their own.
I think that was my point, that an 18 year old just starting out at
college isn't a grown adult with a home of their own. Sure, a sibling my
have a need for the room, of the office combined with living space is at
breaking point, but at 18, I don't think the parents have some kind of
automatic right to take over and reallocate, I think that's got to be a
discussion that might throw more up into the air than might be expected
and a big pinch of salt needed for the independent teenager who isn't
going to say how important it is to them.
Anne
Jeff
I agree with you.
Just a legal technicality.
If the adult is 18, then, legally, the adult is a grown adult.
If the parents own or rent the home, and the adult is 18, then the adult
is responsible for him or herself, and the parents can do whatever they
want with the room.
Of course, if the parents want to use the legal technicality, then there
is a lot more wrong with the family than wanting more space.
Jeff
Anne Rogers
> Rosalie B. wrote:
>
>> But you see, nowadays not everyone moved out/on right away after
>> college. Especially I understand in Great Britain where the children
>> may not be able to afford their own housing.
>
> Different cultures have different ground rules, so I
> can't speak to what would be appropriate for the UK.
Depends very much where you live, the vast majority of my friends (I'm
from the UK...) rented rooms in shared housed when we finished college,
I rented a room in the only house that any of us bought to cover the
time between when they bought the house and when they got married (they
didn't live together until they got married). We bought a house that
year too and it was a big undertaking, we just got lucky that both of us
had either inherited or saved so we had a deposit and my husbands
starting salary was only just short of what we needed, so my dad signed
as a guarantor - which never involved any money. A reasonable number are
still renting, I can only think of a couple of friends who managed to
buy on their own, rather than part of a couple and both had to
compromise on location and had long commutes. But I'm not sure that's
all that different from the US at least in this area (WA), a lot of
couples we know of a similar age to us are renting and most people are
surprised when they realise we own.
Cheers
Anne
Anne Rogers
> But my opinion is that it's the parents' home, they've
> fulfilled their obligation to the child, having gotten him or
> her to adulthood, and further housing is a *favor* to the child,
> not a right.
So if your child turns 18 before the end of senior year, are you doing
them a favour by letting them finish high school? Lots of things aren't
obligations, but favour is the wrong word to substitute, if you
contribute college fees, is that a favour? No, it's a love gift, you do
it because you love your child and you want the best for them and you
support there desire to go to college.
Anne
Jeff
When a child turns 18, graduates high school or has a child, the child
is considered an adult. There is no legal responsibility.
However, despite the legal status, I would argue that a parent's
obligations are made when the parent decides to rear a child. A parent's
obligation does not end when a child become a legal adult.
A child never stops needing a parent.
Jeff
> Anne
annie
> I wonder at what age kids "need" to have their own bedrooms. With 4yo
> and 2yo boys and a 1yo girl, if we buy a 4 bedroom house and useoneroomas an office, and if we give the girl her ownroom, the eldest
> boy will never have his ownroom. I think the boys will just have to
> live with that, as billions of other kids have. We could look for a 5
> bedroom house, but the children may be better off if we spend less on
> a house and put the money in their college funds etc.
>
> There is no "right" answer here, but I wonder what opinions people
> have about this.
Our boys are almost 12 and 10 and have shared a room since DS2 was
born. Our youngest is 4 and has his own room. The older two get
along really well and when they were little, I loved sitting outside
their room after tucking them in and listening to them talk. I think
it's been a great way for them to bond. We've had occasions where one
will be gone visiting relatives for a few days and the other will
confess to really miss having their brother with them at night. DS3
occasionally asks if he can sleep in the other bedroom and the boys
love inviting him in. It takes a bit longer to get to sleep, but I
think it's good for their relationships.
I think the decision has to be based on how you tend to use bedrooms.
For us, we use them for sleeping and dressing. None of the boys spend
much time in their rooms otherwise, so there's very little conflict on
space issues. We also have a very communal approach to toys. We have
a 2-day rule for presents, meaning it's yours exclusively for 2 days,
but after that, you're expected to share it with others. We have a
few exceptions for really special items. This approach cuts down on
the need for separate rooms because they don't feel the need to
isolate their stuff from everyone else.
We do have other areas in the house where they can spread out when
they need some space. We have a large play room, basement rec room,
and quiet formal living room that works well for escaping with a good
book. If you don't have other space like that, I would think having
their own rooms would be important so that they have a place to get
away to when they need it.
Annie
Ericka Kammerer
>
>> And this example of a child whose parents moved early
>> into the college career and moved the child's stuff and had
>> a room, but that wasn't good enough because it didn't *feel*
>> like "home," well, that's a bit over the top to me. What were
>> the parents supposed to do?
>
> I wasn't suggesting they should have done anything different, nor did
> she at the time, it was more that she had a confused an unsettled
> feeling, that she hadn't expected she'd have, she was excited about her
> parents move, she was excited to be able to invite her college friends
> and her school friends for a party as they had the space. It was just
> later she commented how unsettled she had felt - I don't think it had
> any actual affect on her, it was more just a note of feelings she hadn't
> expected.
I see. I do agree that those feelings are absolutely
normal. Heck, I had pangs moving away from places we'd only lived
a few months! Not to mention that we all go through some ambivalence
as we realize that we're really and truly beginning the process
of becoming independent and responsible for ourselves.
> It amazed me how many apparently well adjusted, happy, content 18 year
> olds had some kind of issues over the next couple of years. It seems
> that quite often the expectation of the child is quite different to that
> of the parents - and I don't think you can place the blame for that on
> the child, where do their expectations come from? What the parents might
> see as a straight forward and logical use of space might not seem that
> way to the kid and it's all very well saying it's "probably an
> indication of a larger problem at work", but where did that problem
> originate?
Oh, I certainly don't place all the blame on the child.
Parent screw things up too ;-) And to some extent, some of it
just happens, even with the best efforts and intentions on both
sides. I just make a distinction between what is *normal* to
feel and what standard we should hold ourselves to. I.e., we
all have some fears and ambivalence about becoming independent
(or having our children become independent), but that doesn't
mean that we shouldn't have expectations about their becoming
independent or that we should coddle them by making it effortless
to remain dependent. At that stage of the game, if both sides
aren't a tad uncomfortable, there's probably something wrong! ;-)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> On Feb 15, 7:08 am, Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Sure, there could have been
>> circumstances that would have forced me back there longer term,
>> and they would have been happy to accommodate (in fact I did live
>> there for a year between undergrad and grad school because I knew
>> it was only going to be a one year break and they offered), but
>> I always felt a little like a guest in the home after leaving
>> for college because in my opinion, I *was* a guest. They'd
>> fulfilled their obligation to keep a roof over my head, and
>> the rest was just gravy.
>
> Legally, the parental obligation to house the child may end at age 18,
> but I think when the children should leave home should depend on their
> career and educational needs and on when they get married. If my kids
> wanted to live at home during college or graduate school to save money
> or while they worked after high school, that ought to be fine.
I think that all depends. Yes, if my kids wanted to
save money by living at home and going to college locally,
then we could work something out, but we'd have to have some
clear ground rules about how that was going to work out.
If my kids decided not to go to college and wanted to live at
home and work, they'd be paying rent and there'd be a limited
amount of time that option would be open to them (under normal
circumstances). If they think they can make it in the world
with only a high school education, then they're going to need
to get on that, not have their parents subsidize that choice
for an unlimited period of time.
Personally, I don't think it's great to have kids at
home for long periods of time after high school. Most kids
need to spread their wings in a way they won't really do at
home. I think it's *possible* to make a good transition, but
it's very difficult. I think it's better for kids to get out
unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise.
> What
> would just the two of us do with a 4 bedroom house anyway?
Are you kidding? I think I could probably make
use of eight bedrooms by myself, if I had the luxury
(and the housekeeper!) ;-) We have a four bedroom house.
I'd have an office/library, a needlework room and a guest
room. If I could have more rooms, I'd have a music room,
his and hers offices, a room for the grandkids to stay
in, and goodness knows what else ;-) I can use four
bedrooms without breaking a sweat! Do I absolutely *need*
those rooms? Of course not. I manage without them, but
only by virtue of a lot of multitasking and having to put
things away and take them out as I use them. All the music
stuff is put away and pulled out daily. Same with the
needlework. Office stuff has to be purged ruthlessly to
stay in the allocated space, and each day I have to get
things out to work on them and then put them away (usually
multiple times a day). It's not the end of the earth,
but I'd love to have nice allocated spaces for all that
stuff.
> Since my
> wife and I intend to pay for their college expenses (provided they
> have worked hard in school and tried to obtain merit-based
> scholarships), and since room and board costs about $10K a year, their
> living at home during college would save us $40K. Maybe our giving a
> child $40K for a down payment on a house after he or she graduated
> from college would better encourage independence in the long term.
Maybe, maybe not. Personally, I'd rather my kid
left home and stretched his wings out from under our daily
supervision, but different folks feel differently about that.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
Could be, although my parents actually would have
been happy to help out financially, if able to do so. I was
just a proud young thing, I suppose. And I lived too far away
to send laundry home ;-)
> She told me that she visited her grandparents every Sunday and that
> included time that she was home from college and the year after she
> graduated before she married my dad. She did not marry for a year
> after college because she promised my grandmother that she would wait,
> and she came home during that year and lived with her parents and
> worked retail.
I was used to living in an extended family situation,
and I live next door to my parents now. However, for us that
works only *because* I'm very independent and have very clear
boundaries with my family. I don't know if I could have those
boundaries if I had never been really out on my own.
> She wrote us and she expected us to write back. I have the four years
> of letters that she wrote to my grandmother while she was in college,
> and also the letters that my grandmother wrote back. My grandmother's
> letters usually started out by complaining that she hadn't gotten a
> letter, or else that the letter she got wasn't long enough - and my
> grandmother wrote just about every day. My grandmother (who lost one
> of her two children when he was young) was a very needy woman - my mom
> didn't put that kind of pressure on me - thankfully. Whether because
> she knew what it was like and didn't want to repeat it or because she
> knew me well enough to know that it would not be effective, I don't
> know.
I talked with my family frequently while I was away
at college--at least weekly and sometimes daily. Shocked
many of my friends, as it shocks them now that we can live
happily next door to my family. Still, talking regularly
is very different from living with parents, especially as
a young adult learning to be independent.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> On Feb 15, 7:19 am, Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> But my opinion is that it's the parents' home, they've
>> fulfilled their obligation to the child, having gotten him or
>> her to adulthood, and further housing is a *favor* to the child,
>> not a right.
>
> For us, once we went to college, we were always welcome to move back
> home, with the expectation that we would be paying rent and a share of
> other expenses. Our situation sounds similar to cjra's, where siblings
> are moving into a 'new' room as someone is packing up to leave.
I only have one sibling, and we each had our own room,
so that wasn't much of an issue. My grandparents also lived with
us, but they had their room and the room I vacated wasn't particularly
better than anyone else's room, so there wasn't much motivation for
anyone to nab it, except that my parents were in fairly desperate
need of an office and a guest room.
> My parents were emotionally supportive, and did contribute what they
> could to our college expenses (I was a Pell Grant recipient),
Same here.
> but the
> decision-making for what to do during winter break and summers off in
> college came down to cold hard financial calculations. It would have
> been cheaper to pay rent at home, but the jobs weren't there -- once I
> went to college, I never 'lived' at home again, and had no expectation
> of doing so. In my family, the standard 'joke' goobye was 'write if
> you find work!'
;-) It was a very financial calculation for us as well,
except that that it worked out that the cheaper thing was for
me to live at home during the summer because there *was* good
work there (and the connections to get the good work). I was
working a professional job (with a professional salary) from
my first summer after starting college, which really helped
with the college expenses. I didn't pay rent or utilities because
the money was going to end up going to tuition anyway, whether
from me or from my parents, so it was pretty much a moot point.
> It would have been strange for my parents to maintain a room for
> someone who isn't there. I think there are a lot of ways of finding
> 'alone time and space' even amidst a crowd, and I believe it's a
> helpful skill to cultivate; without this skill, living in dorm room
> (non-single), working in a cubicle, riding public transportation,
> flying coach weekly -- I can't see how this could be bearable.
Eh, I think it is important to learn how to deal with
those situations, but I also believe that there are people whose
temperaments are such that that never comes easily to them. Give
me a good book and I might as well be a thousand miles from
anywhere or anyone. Heck, I don't really even need a book.
One of my sons, on the other hand, has a huge need for private
space--and I mean really private: actual space with no people
in it. Without it, he just can't recharge his batteries. He
is learning to get by when it isn't available, but it's never
going to be ideal for him, I think. I suspect he will make his
life decisions in such a way as to try to ensure that he will
have access to the privacy he requires.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
I didn't say that it wasn't a desirable thing to do.
I simply said that it was a favor, not an obligation. In my
opinion, a polite young adult realizes this and doesn't
take it for granted, just as a caring and thoughtful parent
is happy to support a child's education by providing housing
during college breaks. Just because it's kind and thoughtful
to do something does not mean that it is okay to take it for
granted as something one is entitled to.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> When a child turns 18, graduates high school or has a child, the child
> is considered an adult. There is no legal responsibility.
>
> However, despite the legal status, I would argue that a parent's
> obligations are made when the parent decides to rear a child. A parent's
> obligation does not end when a child become a legal adult.
I would say that caring and loving parents continue to
support their children; however, that doesn't make it an entitlement,
nor does it make it something that a child should take for granted.
> A child never stops needing a parent.
But a child should stop needing parenting at some point.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
>
>> Different strokes, I guess. For myself, I can't make
>> sense of the idea that a significant portion of my home
>> should be off limits to more practical uses in order to
>> maintain a space for children who are grown adults with
>> homes of their own.
>
> I think that was my point, that an 18 year old just starting out at
> college isn't a grown adult with a home of their own.
They aren't, but they should be on their way and
certainly able to grasp the concept that practicality and
concern for the needs of other family members might dictate
an alternate use for the room while they're away. These
kids are not innately fragile. In years past, they'd have
been fully functioning adults with families of their own
by this point. Our society does extend adolescence to some
degree, but normal teenagers are capable of learning to
help out and be considerate of the needs of others even
while still in high school and at home, and can certainly
do the same when old enough to head off to college. Obviously,
one can't just flip a switch and change all the ground rules
the minute they graduate high school. There should have been
discussions and steps towards independence all along.
Best wishes,
Ericka
toto
<beli...@aol.com> wrote:
>I wonder at what age kids "need" to have their own bedrooms. With 4yo
>and 2yo boys and a 1yo girl, if we buy a 4 bedroom house and use one
>room as an office, and if we give the girl her own room, the eldest
>boy will never have his own room. I think the boys will just have to
>live with that, as billions of other kids have. We could look for a 5
>bedroom house, but the children may be better off if we spend less on
>a house and put the money in their college funds etc.
>
>There is no "right" answer here, but I wonder what opinions people
>have about this.
I don't know about boys. I shared a bedroom with my sister for most
of my childhood and it was fine until the teenage years really. At
that point we both wanted privacy and the room was too small for two
of us in terms of our clothing and makeup as well.
--
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
Rosalie B.
>Rosalie B. wrote:
>> Maybe that is the difference. I was expected to manage my money - my
>> mom gave me $100 in travelers checks at the beginning of the semester
>> to cover my expenses outside of room and board, and that included
>> books in those days (this was c 1956), but if I had needed more money,
>> I could have asked and wouldn't have hesitated to do so. I lived in a
>> co-op to save money, and typed papers for people (before computers
>> obviously). But my mom expected a phone call every week, and a lot of
>> letters. I also sent my laundry home for her to do. So maybe it was
>> that she wasn't ready to let go and it is more about the attitude of
>> the parent than the attitude of the child..
>
> Could be, although my parents actually would have
>been happy to help out financially, if able to do so. I was
>just a proud young thing, I suppose. And I lived too far away
>to send laundry home ;-)
Well I went to school in Ohio and my parents lived in MD. Unless you
were in a foreign country, I don't think there would be a 'too far'.
More guys did this than girls though. There were fiberboard 'laundry
cases' that were made for this mailing back and forth. It was going
out of fashion though because the dorms were starting to have coin
washers in the basement.
Of course DH sent his laundry out to be done - they didn't expect
midshipmen to do their own laundry.
Ericka Kammerer
> Well I went to school in Ohio and my parents lived in MD. Unless you
> were in a foreign country, I don't think there would be a 'too far'.
> More guys did this than girls though. There were fiberboard 'laundry
> cases' that were made for this mailing back and forth. It was going
> out of fashion though because the dorms were starting to have coin
> washers in the basement.
My goodness! It's hard to imagine mailing laundry
back and forth! ;-) Of course, when I was in school we
did have coin operated machines in the dorms, so there wasn't
a need.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Banty
says...
But I don't think we're talking about entitlement here, are we.
Like any relationship, how close it is depends on what happens other than the
obligations. If the household switches right quick to fill the space one uses,
without clear good reason, there's a message about the relationship there, which
cools it. Or signals a distancing. And I *do* think the adult-adult
relationship a parent-child relationship evolves to is best served by starting
with a supportive adult-youth relationship, not a "you're 18 you could be out on
your ass" relationship!
I wasn't affected by any of this because I *was* very anxious to get out of the
house for good at 17, plus my parents moved in the middle of my college years
anyway.
But the idea of taking my son's space right over as soon as he goes to college?
I *could* use it as an office, but to me possibly his needing it over the
summer(s) and other breaks clearly takes precedence. And is a heck of a lot
more use than the average use a guest room gets. I have no fear of the empty
nest and even look forward to it (being one of those folks who like a lot of
alone space) but the idea of it still strikes me as - cold. I can use the
kitchen table (as I'm doing now) just fine and dandy for four extra years or
probably less until when it's clear he's struck out on his own pretty much. And
that has nothing to do with keeping it as a 'shrine'.
Also just knowing how a lot of my fellow students were when I was in college.
For many young people especially the early years really is only a start of a
transition.
Banty
Ericka Kammerer
> In article <suudnR74YOU6bSja...@comcast.com>, Ericka Kammerer
> says...
>> Anne Rogers wrote:
>>>> But my opinion is that it's the parents' home, they've
>>>> fulfilled their obligation to the child, having gotten him or
>>>> her to adulthood, and further housing is a *favor* to the child,
>>>> not a right.
>>> So if your child turns 18 before the end of senior year, are you doing
>>> them a favour by letting them finish high school? Lots of things aren't
>>> obligations, but favour is the wrong word to substitute, if you
>>> contribute college fees, is that a favour? No, it's a love gift, you do
>>> it because you love your child and you want the best for them and you
>>> support there desire to go to college.
>> I didn't say that it wasn't a desirable thing to do.
>> I simply said that it was a favor, not an obligation. In my
>> opinion, a polite young adult realizes this and doesn't
>> take it for granted, just as a caring and thoughtful parent
>> is happy to support a child's education by providing housing
>> during college breaks. Just because it's kind and thoughtful
>> to do something does not mean that it is okay to take it for
>> granted as something one is entitled to.
>
> But I don't think we're talking about entitlement here, are we.
I think the notion that one must preserve the room
to avoid devastating the child is tending in that direction.
A normal, healthy young adult shouldn't be devastated at the
notion that a room he or she isn't going to be using most
of the year is going to have some alternate uses and perhaps
not be preserved in every detail.
> Like any relationship, how close it is depends on what happens other than the
> obligations. If the household switches right quick to fill the space one uses,
> without clear good reason, there's a message about the relationship there, which
> cools it. Or signals a distancing. And I *do* think the adult-adult
> relationship a parent-child relationship evolves to is best served by starting
> with a supportive adult-youth relationship, not a "you're 18 you could be out on
> your ass" relationship!
I wasn't advocating the latter, but there's a long way
between that and believing that any use of the room is an
abrogation of the child's rights.
> I wasn't affected by any of this because I *was* very anxious to get out of the
> house for good at 17, plus my parents moved in the middle of my college years
> anyway.
>
> But the idea of taking my son's space right over as soon as he goes to college?
> I *could* use it as an office, but to me possibly his needing it over the
> summer(s) and other breaks clearly takes precedence.
Well, the two need not be in opposition as long as both
are willing to compromise somewhat.
> And is a heck of a lot
> more use than the average use a guest room gets.
Which can vary from family to family, of course.
> I have no fear of the empty
> nest and even look forward to it (being one of those folks who like a lot of
> alone space) but the idea of it still strikes me as - cold. I can use the
> kitchen table (as I'm doing now) just fine and dandy for four extra years or
> probably less until when it's clear he's struck out on his own pretty much. And
> that has nothing to do with keeping it as a 'shrine'.
But it's just the two of you in your home, and you have
an office at work. Other families have different situations and
different needs. Again, I wasn't advocating a down-to-the-studs
renovation the second the kid leaves for college just to make
sure the kid gets the message that it's time to move on. I'm
saying that when the family has a legitimate use for the space,
it's rather selfish of the child to get miffed at the room
serving other needs while he or she is away. Someone mature
enough to be going off to college should be mature enough to
cope with some room multitasking.
> Also just knowing how a lot of my fellow students were when I was in college.
> For many young people especially the early years really is only a start of a
> transition.
Again, no arguments that it's a transition and should be
handled gradually. Just arguing that this notion that the room
must not be touched because it's somehow inherently aggressive
or cold is a bit over the top, in my opinion.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Chookie
toto <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote:
> I don't know about boys. I shared a bedroom with my sister for most
> of my childhood and it was fine until the teenage years really. At
> that point we both wanted privacy and the room was too small for two
> of us in terms of our clothing and makeup as well.
So which of you moved, and to where?
I grew up in a 3-bedroom unit. Problem was that there were four people: Mum,
Grandma, my sister and me. Our room was too small before the teenage years,
but there was nowhere for us to go.
I must admit I'm fascinated by kids in books who suddenly graduate to a Room
of their Own, without any obvious reason like the disappearance of an older
sibling, or building work. I always wonder why they weren't given the room to
start with.
--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)
toypup
> I must admit I'm fascinated by kids in books who suddenly graduate to a Room
> of their Own, without any obvious reason like the disappearance of an older
> sibling, or building work. I always wonder why they weren't given the room to
> start with.
Mabe they slept better as toddlers when there was a sibling in the room
(kept the imaginary monsters away)? Sleeping with sibling was a transition
from sleeping with parent?
Ericka Kammerer
> In article <e8tbr3pi2j2mf5i54...@4ax.com>,
> toto <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote:
>
>> I don't know about boys. I shared a bedroom with my sister for most
>> of my childhood and it was fine until the teenage years really. At
>> that point we both wanted privacy and the room was too small for two
>> of us in terms of our clothing and makeup as well.
>
> So which of you moved, and to where?
>
> I grew up in a 3-bedroom unit. Problem was that there were four people: Mum,
> Grandma, my sister and me. Our room was too small before the teenage years,
> but there was nowhere for us to go.
Similar situation when I was around 13. We had
three bedrooms, but we had my parents, my grandparents,
myself and my sister (who were obviously sharing a room).
It wasn't going well at that point, so my father actually
put in a wall in the family room to create a small bedroom
for me. It was tiny, and didn't have a door (we were renting
at the time, so he was limited in the modifications he could
make--the wall was removable), but it was mine and I was
thrilled. We moved about a year later and always had four
bedrooms after that.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Akuvikate
I've always thought it somewhat of an American oddity to have children
pay their parents "rent". I have no quibbles at all with the idea
that grown children contributing to the economic (and logistic)
functioning of the household. I'd rather have them do some of the
grocery shopping, or cover the utility bills, or some such -- it's
just semantic, but charging your my own child rent would seem strange
to me. But then, when I was in my mid-20s and living at home for two
years my parents hardly let me pay for a gallon of milk, so clearly
different families are different.
> Personally, I don't think it's great to have kids at
> home for long periods of time after high school. Most kids
> need to spread their wings in a way they won't really do at
> home. I think it's *possible* to make a good transition, but
> it's very difficult. I think it's better for kids to get out
> unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise.
Though of course that depends a lot on the kid and the family. I
moved cross-country for college because I couldn't wait to go
somewhere as new as possible. But then between that, a semester
abroad, and Peace Corps in Africa I also moved back in for a total of
3 years after college (in addition to coming home over college
breaks). My brother, on the other hand, just wasn't ready to be out
on his own at 18 and so lived at home while going to junior college
for three years. Those three years were quite important for him and
he probably wouldn't have done nearly as well in college if he left
the house and started a four-year right at 18. I loved the time
living with my parents as an adult -- I felt like that was when our
adult relationship really formed and flourished. And though I'm not
sure if I felt "entitled" to live there, I don't remember if I ever
really even had to ask. I think it was just taken for granted by all
of us that if I didn't have reason to be elsewhere, that's where I'd
be. Perhaps it would have been different if we didn't live in one of
the most expensive housing markets in the country.
I forget the recent statistic, but it's becoming quite common for the
transition from living at home to independence to become a back-and-
forth process for many young adults. Some see that as a step
backward, but the American pattern of this sharp cutoff between being
a part of one's parents' home and then suddenly not is something of a
cultural outlier (and I suspect also something relatively recent in
history). I don't think there's an inherent superiority in one way or
the other, but the more fluid transition of parent/child obligations
appeals to me more. There isn't really a switch that gets flipped
between "dependent" and "independent". And eventually, the parents
may well become gradually more dependent on the children. It makes
sense to me for both of these transitions to evolve naturally rather
than on some preconceived timeline.
Kate, ignorant foot soldier of the medical cartel
and the Bug, 4 and a half
and something brewing, 4/08
Rosalie B.
>On Feb 15, 11:48 am, Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Beliavsky wrote:
>> > On Feb 15, 7:08 am, Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >> Sure, there could have been
>> >> circumstances that would have forced me back there longer term,
>> >> and they would have been happy to accommodate (in fact I did live
>> >> there for a year between undergrad and grad school because I knew
>> >> it was only going to be a one year break and they offered), but
>> >> I always felt a little like a guest in the home after leaving
>> >> for college because in my opinion, I *was* a guest. They'd
>> >> fulfilled their obligation to keep a roof over my head, and
>> >> the rest was just gravy.
>>
>> > Legally, the parental obligation to house the child may end at age 18,
>> > but I think when the children should leave home should depend on their
>> > career and educational needs and on when they get married. If my kids
>> > wanted to live at home during college or graduate school to save money
>> > or while they worked after high school, that ought to be fine.
>>
>> I think that all depends. Yes, if my kids wanted to
>> save money by living at home and going to college locally,
>> then we could work something out, but we'd have to have some
>> clear ground rules about how that was going to work out.
Most of us are talking about generally responsible kids and not
deadbeats. We all seem eager to be independent at an appropriate time
in our lives - some more eager than others, or sooner than others but
at some point we knew we would be out on our own.
If you have (or are) a deadbeat kid who just wants to hang in the
house playing computer games and doesn't have any goals or ambition
except to get someone else to do everything for him/her, then -yes you
do need rules. If you have such a kid you might want to figure out a
way to push him/her out of the nest. Although there is always the
possibility that the deadbeat is that way because of physical or
mental problems.
But I don't think that's what we are talking about here.
>> If my kids decided not to go to college and wanted to live at
>> home and work, they'd be paying rent and there'd be a limited
>> amount of time that option would be open to them (under normal
>> circumstances). If they think they can make it in the world
>> with only a high school education, then they're going to need
>> to get on that, not have their parents subsidize that choice
>> for an unlimited period of time.
>
>I've always thought it somewhat of an American oddity to have children
>pay their parents "rent".
Yes - when my kids were in college they didn't pay me rent. That
would be silly - why waste their time earning money to pay their
parents RENT when they could be studying or earning money to pay their
college expenses. Unless you are going to kick the kid to the curb
and say that they have to pay their own tuition room and board
immediately they turn 18 and/or graduate HS.
Of my 4 kids:
I paid tuition, room and board for #1 until she got married (halfway
through her freshman year) and had a baby (the following fall). I
helped where I could after that (we gave her a car, and she and her
husband moved back with us for the summer, but I didn't charge them
rent. They did pay for their own phone line). She had to work and
get loans to finish school, but she did it (although it took her 7
years)
DD#2 went to the USAFA, and I didn't have tuition to pay, but we did
help out with transportation to and from school, bought her a truck to
drive out there, and took care of her horse for her. When she
graduated, her dad helped her drive to her next duty station(s).
For DD#3, we paid all her room, board and tuition until graduation.
She worked summers and put that money toward incidental expenses. One
summer she worked at Fort Meade and she lived with my mom at that time
- didn't pay any rent. Her DH did have to work his way through school
- his parents didn't pay anything for him.
DS has mostly had to pay his own tuition because he moved away and got
married before he was 21. I would have paid it for him if he was able
to go on a regular basis, but after he had a family, things have often
interfered with college, and I can't afford to pay him a salary that
would support his family to go to school and I don't think he would
want that. He was one that moved out really early, and I wish he had
not done so. If he had stayed at home I think it would have worked
out better.
>I have no quibbles at all with the idea
>that grown children contributing to the economic (and logistic)
>functioning of the household. I'd rather have them do some of the
>grocery shopping, or cover the utility bills, or some such -- it's
>just semantic, but charging your my own child rent would seem strange
>to me. But then, when I was in my mid-20s and living at home for two
>years my parents hardly let me pay for a gallon of milk, so clearly
>different families are different.
>
When I moved home with my folks and my 3 kids (pg with #4), I did the
grocery shopping, paid for my own car expenses, and the kids lessons.
My mom said that the house would be there anyway, and it didn't cost
them any more to live in it with us there. My mom did most of the
cooking because she didn't like anyone else messing around in her
kitchen, and she had a cleaning lady. I did our own wash. We
discussed this beforehand, and I think that is the way it should be
done - not a unilateral decision unless the parents don't really like
their kids very much. Erika's attitude strikes me as being really
cold.
>> Personally, I don't think it's great to have kids at
>> home for long periods of time after high school. Most kids
>> need to spread their wings in a way they won't really do at
>> home. I think it's *possible* to make a good transition, but
>> it's very difficult. I think it's better for kids to get out
>> unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise.
>
>Though of course that depends a lot on the kid and the family. I
>moved cross-country for college because I couldn't wait to go
>somewhere as new as possible. But then between that, a semester
>abroad, and Peace Corps in Africa I also moved back in for a total of
>3 years after college (in addition to coming home over college
>breaks). My brother, on the other hand, just wasn't ready to be out
>on his own at 18 and so lived at home while going to junior college
>for three years. Those three years were quite important for him and
>he probably wouldn't have done nearly as well in college if he left
>the house and started a four-year right at 18. I loved the time
>living with my parents as an adult -- I felt like that was when our
>adult relationship really formed and flourished. And though I'm not
>sure if I felt "entitled" to live there, I don't remember if I ever
>really even had to ask. I think it was just taken for granted by all
>of us that if I didn't have reason to be elsewhere, that's where I'd
>be. Perhaps it would have been different if we didn't live in one of
>the most expensive housing markets in the country.
>
I always asked before I came to stay, and I think mom would have said
if it didn't suit her. After she was widowed, she was quite happy to
have company. Her requirement was that we had to tell her things like
were we going to be out late, and that's just polite.
>I forget the recent statistic, but it's becoming quite common for the
>transition from living at home to independence to become a back-and-
>forth process for many young adults. Some see that as a step
>backward, but the American pattern of this sharp cutoff between being
>a part of one's parents' home and then suddenly not is something of a
>cultural outlier (and I suspect also something relatively recent in
>history). I don't think there's an inherent superiority in one way or
>the other, but the more fluid transition of parent/child obligations
>appeals to me more. There isn't really a switch that gets flipped
>between "dependent" and "independent". And eventually, the parents
>may well become gradually more dependent on the children. It makes
>sense to me for both of these transitions to evolve naturally rather
>than on some preconceived timeline.
>
Right - I'm on that end of things now, since dd#1 is 46, and my baby
is 37 years old. My mom died in 2006, and I think if I had been able
to go and live with her, or have her to live with me that she might
have lived longer. Although maybe not.
In any case, the fact that the upstairs bedroom was set up for
visitors (it had been my room and had some of my furniture in it)
meant that she could have live-in help without too much difficulty and
that meant she could stay in her home almost until the end. There
was a bathroom up there so the only thing missing to make an apartment
out of it was a kitchen.
Ericka Kammerer
> On Feb 15, 11:48 am, Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I think that all depends. Yes, if my kids wanted to
>> save money by living at home and going to college locally,
>> then we could work something out, but we'd have to have some
>> clear ground rules about how that was going to work out.
>> If my kids decided not to go to college and wanted to live at
>> home and work, they'd be paying rent and there'd be a limited
>> amount of time that option would be open to them (under normal
>> circumstances). If they think they can make it in the world
>> with only a high school education, then they're going to need
>> to get on that, not have their parents subsidize that choice
>> for an unlimited period of time.
>
> I've always thought it somewhat of an American oddity to have children
> pay their parents "rent". I have no quibbles at all with the idea
> that grown children contributing to the economic (and logistic)
> functioning of the household. I'd rather have them do some of the
> grocery shopping, or cover the utility bills, or some such -- it's
> just semantic, but charging your my own child rent would seem strange
> to me. But then, when I was in my mid-20s and living at home for two
> years my parents hardly let me pay for a gallon of milk, so clearly
> different families are different.
To me, the situation to avoid is the one where grown
children are permanently ensconced at home sponging off their
parents with little movement toward independence. So, I wouldn't
charge rent to the child home while pursuing his or her education,
or the child who had to move back home due to an emergency or
some such situation. However, if I had a child who was basically
goofing off and using living at home simply as a way to avoid
taking full responsibility for becoming a self-sufficient
adult, then I'd be looking to remove the subsidies at home.
Hence the statement that I wouldn't be looking for rent from
the child who was living at home and attending college, but
would be looking for rent from the child who had no intention
of attending college (or forming some other concrete plan for
getting on the road to self-sufficiency).
>> Personally, I don't think it's great to have kids at
>> home for long periods of time after high school. Most kids
>> need to spread their wings in a way they won't really do at
>> home. I think it's *possible* to make a good transition, but
>> it's very difficult. I think it's better for kids to get out
>> unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise.
>
> Though of course that depends a lot on the kid and the family. I
> moved cross-country for college because I couldn't wait to go
> somewhere as new as possible. But then between that, a semester
> abroad, and Peace Corps in Africa I also moved back in for a total of
> 3 years after college (in addition to coming home over college
> breaks). My brother, on the other hand, just wasn't ready to be out
> on his own at 18 and so lived at home while going to junior college
> for three years. Those three years were quite important for him and
> he probably wouldn't have done nearly as well in college if he left
> the house and started a four-year right at 18.
But in both cases, you had a plan and were making progress
toward the future of becoming a self-supporting adult. That, I
think, is quite a contrast from the person who graduates high
school, doesn't feel like going to college, gets a dead end job
to buy stuff now, and wants to subsidize his or her artificially
inflated lifestyle by living at home rent-free. If your plan is
that you can make a go of things without further education and
without some kind of career plan, then it's time for you to start
learning how to live on the income you've set yourself up to
produce.
> I loved the time
> living with my parents as an adult -- I felt like that was when our
> adult relationship really formed and flourished. And though I'm not
> sure if I felt "entitled" to live there, I don't remember if I ever
> really even had to ask. I think it was just taken for granted by all
> of us that if I didn't have reason to be elsewhere, that's where I'd
> be. Perhaps it would have been different if we didn't live in one of
> the most expensive housing markets in the country.
Housing is very expensive around here, and I did live
with my parents during breaks from college, but it was always
a matter of filling a gap between steps along the way in a
path that was heading towards independence.
> I forget the recent statistic, but it's becoming quite common for the
> transition from living at home to independence to become a back-and-
> forth process for many young adults. Some see that as a step
> backward, but the American pattern of this sharp cutoff between being
> a part of one's parents' home and then suddenly not is something of a
> cultural outlier (and I suspect also something relatively recent in
> history). I don't think there's an inherent superiority in one way or
> the other, but the more fluid transition of parent/child obligations
> appeals to me more. There isn't really a switch that gets flipped
> between "dependent" and "independent". And eventually, the parents
> may well become gradually more dependent on the children. It makes
> sense to me for both of these transitions to evolve naturally rather
> than on some preconceived timeline.
The question to me is less about whether people live
with family or not, but whether they are taking responsibility
for themselves and their choices. I know too many parents whose
children take shameless advantage of them. The children make
choices to get themselves into a lifestyle they can't afford
to support on their own, and then the parents have to step in
to provide housing, child care, or whatever other support is
required. I think the parents are owed something by their
children, and that includes children making their absolute best
effort not to be a burden on their parents once they're capable
of standing on their own two feet.
Of course there are situations that come up despite
everyone's best planning, and you deal with those as they happen,
but I think the parents should be able to do the things
that they've put off for all those years as part and parcel
of raising children. If they want to travel, they should
travel. If they want a guest room/office/library/whatever,
they should have it--it's their house, after all. They should
be able to play with the grandchildren when they *want* to,
not on a schedule determined by their children's needs or wants.
Obviously, I would step up to the plate to help out if my
children needed it (as my parents would do for me), but I hope
to bring up children with the skills and work ethic they need
to make good choices so that they *can* stand on their own
two feet and so that I'll be able to do for them because I
*want* to, not because they'll be in trouble if I don't.
So, I hope to goodness that my children will become
adults who want to live nearby so I can spoil my grandchildren
rotten, but I also hope that they will be thoughtful and
industrious so that they will be able to care for themselves
and their families. My parents were caught in the so-called
sandwich where they were dealing with kids in college and
elderly parents with rapidly failing health at the same
time. I'm used to living in an extended family situation,
and I would gladly care for my parents should that need
ever arise. At the same time, the fact is that having been
through that, my parents are highly motivated to make plans
so that their children won't have to provide elder care for
them. I think the situation works best that way--they don't
want to impose, but we'd be more than happy to help (and
have the wherewithal to do so because we've learned to take
care of ourselves and then some). Similarly, we work to
be able to stand on our own feet and plan for our retirement
so that we won't impose on our children, but would be more
than happy to help our children in a pinch. I hope our children
will work hard to be able to care well for themselves and
their families. If we all work hard to do what we can to
take care of ourselves, others will be that much more willing
to help when there really is a need (not to mention their
resources won't be tapped out and they won't be burned out
when and if that need arises).
Ultimately, therefore, I want the incentives I
provide to my children to line up with what I hope for
their futures. We'll gladly provide a home (or whatever
is needed) to support them in case of emergency or
to help them get an education or work a career path that
will get them somewhere. If they become adults who want
a home (or whatever else) without having a plan for the
future, there may well be some strings attached.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> Erika's attitude strikes me as being really
> cold.
There's a lot about parenting that seems cold.
I tell my kids that they can't have some things, even though
I can afford them and even though perhaps their friends
have them, because I don't think it's good for kids to have
too much "stuff." No matter how much they kick and scream,
if they need the shot at the doctor's, they need the shot--
even if it rips my heart to hear them crying. If they
blow off the assignment until the bitter end and then don't
do well on it, well, they're going to turn in what they've
got and they're going to get a bad grade on it no matter
how much I want to rush in and rescue them. And if they
think they have a roof and maid service for their whole
life regardless of whether they choose to get an education
or a decent job, then they're going to have a bit of a painful
awakening there as well. It may be cold, but I think there
are some things that are too important not to learn in life.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Rosalie B.
I'm not talking about THAT kind of thing being cold - this is not
about putting limits on 'stuff' when they are children, or getting
proper medical care even though it may hurt or doing their schoolwork.
That is not cold - that is parenting and you have their best interests
at heart - not your own.
Turning their room into a guest room as soon as they are out the door
to college, or charging rent if they go locally and commute is having
your own interests in the center and not theirs, especially if they
are otherwise good kids. It seems aimed at deliberately hurting them.
Because who needs a permanent guest room? Do you have that many
guests who couldn't stay in a hotel? (Which we do when we visit our
children because dh doesn't want to impose on them)
Perhaps you have indications now that your child/children will think
they have a roof and maid services for their whole lives, but I would
tend to doubt it from the way you write here. My children certainly
were not that way, nor was I, even though my mom welcomed me back for
extended visit and even though occasionally my children have come back
home for short period. Without paying rent.
Ericka Kammerer
Even if it means that the other kids have to keep
sharing a room? Even if it means telling grandma and grandpa
they have to stay in a hotel? Even if it means that someone
living at home who's working from home or going to school doesn't
have a good place to study/work? No matter what, the college
student's "need" for a sacrosanct room outweighs anyone else
still living full time in the home's needs?
> or charging rent if they go locally and commute
If you'll go back and re-read, you'll see that I never
suggested charging rent to a child who is living at home and
going to school.
> is having
> your own interests in the center and not theirs,
So even though they are at least 18 years old, there
is absolutely no sense that they should ever consider the needs
of anyone else? The parents' lives continue to revolve exclusively
around the desires of the young adult child? By the way, if you
also go back and re-read, I've said several times that I was
not suggesting tearing the room down to the studs and remodeling
the instant the child is out the door. I was merely suggesting
that under normal circumstances, it is unreasonable to insist
that the room be off limits for other uses when it's not being
used nine months out of the year if the family would benefit
from alternate uses of that space. I think to suggest that it's
imperative that the room remain off limits is to infantilize a
normal, healthy young adult who ought to be perfectly capable of
balancing his or her own wants and needs with those of the family
(and should have been doing so for years already by the time he
or she leaves for college). I don't think it does them any favors
to treat them as if they're that self-centered and fragile. I
think they are perfectly capable of having a discussion about
what's best for the family.
> especially if they
> are otherwise good kids. It seems aimed at deliberately hurting them.
> Because who needs a permanent guest room? Do you have that many
> guests who couldn't stay in a hotel?
As I said, my parents have two guests rooms in pretty
heavy rotation. Is it such a bad thing to enjoy hosting guests?
To take in others who might be in a rough spot and in need of a
place to stay? To *wish* to offer the hospitality of your home,
rather than asking folks to stay in a hotel? To wish to decorate
your own home in a way that pleases you and your guests once your
child is perfectly capable of maintaining his or her own home?
> (Which we do when we visit our
> children because dh doesn't want to impose on them)
>
> Perhaps you have indications now that your child/children will think
> they have a roof and maid services for their whole lives, but I would
> tend to doubt it from the way you write here. My children certainly
> were not that way, nor was I, even though my mom welcomed me back for
> extended visit and even though occasionally my children have come back
> home for short period. Without paying rent.
Again, if you re-read, you will see that I never
expressed any intention of charging rent for children home during
college breaks, home during emergencies, or home for some other
similar reason. I would certainly hope that my children would
want to be self-supporting, would make good choices, and would
not feel a sense of entitlement. If they don't, I'll certainly
do what I can to put the incentives in the right place.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Banty
says...
Oh good grief.
This discussion is being unecessarily drawn in extremes.
Did someone say Grandma should live under the stairs so's Junior can have his
room back just the way it was?
Banty
Ericka Kammerer
> Oh good grief.
>
> This discussion is being unecessarily drawn in extremes.
>
> Did someone say Grandma should live under the stairs so's Junior can have his
> room back just the way it was?
My point was that I had not made the extreme comments
that were attributed to me. In addition, I am surprised that
so many seem to think that an 18 year old young adult has
no responsibility to suck it up and cope with sharing space
he or she isn't even inhabiting in order to benefit other
family members, when and if there is in fact some benefit to
the family to share the use of the room while still having
space to accommodate the college student during breaks from
school.
Best wishes,
Ericka
cjra
I don't know. My parents always said that if we chose to live at home
after we finished high school and *didn't * go to college, we were
expected to pay rent. It made perfect sense to me - we would be
adults, with jobs, we'd be expected to contribute to the household
unless we had extreme circumstances. I have no doubt my parents would
have - and still would - welcome us back with open arms and free rent
if the need arose (and some of my siblings have done so on a temporary
basis), but the idea was that we were adults, and should be expected
to act as adults.
That said, none of my siblings ever paid rent. 2 who stayed were
always in school, at least part time, and my brother took over my
father's business when he had a heart attack and dropped out of
school. So the issue never came up. We were all aware of it though
and accepted it happily. It made sense.
I moved out at 17 for college. After that time I lived at 'home' for a
total of about 6 weeks in between undergrad (and post travel) and grad
school...I didn't come home for summers or holidays as I always
worked. I was welcome to, I just didn't see the need to move back in.
Rosalie B.
I said GUEST ROOM, not that the other kids should have to keep
sharing. And why would grandma and grandpa have to stay in a hotel if
the college student was not home they could certainly use his/her
room. I don't mean that the room should be 'sacrosanct'. It's
certainly OK to set up a place to study in it.
But it does seem cold if as soon as the kid is out the door if his mom
completely redecorates his room and makes a permanent guest room out
of it while stowing or throwing out all of the college student's
things.
>> or charging rent if they go locally and commute
>
> If you'll go back and re-read, you'll see that I never
>suggested charging rent to a child who is living at home and
>going to school.
>
You cut what everyone said and all the attributions off when you
protested that what you said wasn't cold. So I can't re-read.
>> is having
>> your own interests in the center and not theirs,
>
> So even though they are at least 18 years old, there
>is absolutely no sense that they should ever consider the needs
>of anyone else? The parents' lives continue to revolve exclusively
I didn't say that either.
>around the desires of the young adult child? By the way, if you
>also go back and re-read, I've said several times that I was
>not suggesting tearing the room down to the studs and remodeling
>the instant the child is out the door. I was merely suggesting
>that under normal circumstances, it is unreasonable to insist
>that the room be off limits for other uses when it's not being
>used nine months out of the year if the family would benefit
>from alternate uses of that space. I think to suggest that it's
>imperative that the room remain off limits is to infantilize a
>normal, healthy young adult who ought to be perfectly capable of
>balancing his or her own wants and needs with those of the family
>(and should have been doing so for years already by the time he
>or she leaves for college). I don't think it does them any favors
>to treat them as if they're that self-centered and fragile. I
>think they are perfectly capable of having a discussion about
>what's best for the family.
>
I don't think the room should be 'off limits' of kept as any kind of
shrine. Just that the person, even though 18 is still part of the
family and his/her input should ALSO be considered. Just because he
has gone out to college, doesn't mean he/she isn't still part of the
family and not to be included in any discussion. As a mother, I WANT
my children to come home and visit me, and I don't want to send any
kind of signal that indicates I'm done with them.
>> especially if they
>> are otherwise good kids. It seems aimed at deliberately hurting them.
>> Because who needs a permanent guest room? Do you have that many
>> guests who couldn't stay in a hotel?
>
> As I said, my parents have two guests rooms in pretty
>heavy rotation. Is it such a bad thing to enjoy hosting guests?
>To take in others who might be in a rough spot and in need of a
>place to stay? To *wish* to offer the hospitality of your home,
>rather than asking folks to stay in a hotel? To wish to decorate
>your own home in a way that pleases you and your guests once your
>child is perfectly capable of maintaining his or her own home?
>
No that's not bad if the child IS maintaining his/her own home. But
at college they aren't doing that yet. I'm sure a reasonable older
teen would not mind his/her room being used while he was gone or even
converted to another use. It was the draconian scenario that I was
objecting to.
Although I've never been much in favor of 'decorating'. As long as
the colors are compatible, I would rather reuse my same furniture and
maybe recover the upholstery. I don't want my home to look like some
kind of magazine layout - not that there's any danger of that anyway.
My house can serve (as Peg Bracken once remarked) as a bad example so
that everyone else can feel superior.
My mom had a friend whose husband was a stamp collector. They had a
two bedroom apartment. My mom's friend would not let her husband
leave a card table up in the guest room overnight to work on his
stamps - he had to put it away. I think that's an unreasonable
attitude and it upsets me to think about it. Kind of a Mrs. Bucket
type. .(Her daughter was a friend of mine and she was a perfectly
reasonable person - must have taken after her dad.)
>> (Which we do when we visit our
>> children because dh doesn't want to impose on them)
>>
We do stay and one daughter's house. But one daughter lives close
enough that we can visit and still drive home in the same day, and ds
has logistic problems so that we don't feel comfortable staying there.
And our other daughter's house is just plain too loud for us.
Basically I have a problem getting dh to visit anyone for more than 3
days, as he thinks that's' the maximum that anyone ought to impose on
anyone else.
>> Perhaps you have indications now that your child/children will think
>> they have a roof and maid services for their whole lives, but I would
>> tend to doubt it from the way you write here. My children certainly
>> were not that way, nor was I, even though my mom welcomed me back for
>> extended visit and even though occasionally my children have come back
>> home for short period. Without paying rent.
>
> Again, if you re-read, you will see that I never
I don't know who said that - it's not on this post.
>expressed any intention of charging rent for children home during
>college breaks, home during emergencies, or home for some other
>similar reason. I would certainly hope that my children would
>want to be self-supporting, would make good choices, and would
>not feel a sense of entitlement. If they don't, I'll certainly
>do what I can to put the incentives in the right place.
>
You did say that you saw many examples of deadbeat kids. I have not
seen that. My grandson did live at home after he dropped out of
college, and his mom did make him pay rent. But he was anxious to get
out on his own (for one thing since he didn't have a driver's license
or a car it was too hard to get to work from where they lived).
Eventually he rethought college. My son was the same way although he
didn't live at home at any time. He could always get jobs and make
enough money, but he eventually decided that he really wanted the
education.
Narelle
Well, I'm with you, Ericka. I am just entering this stage of life, with
DS1 having just finished high school. He has deferred uni for a year
and will be working. Therefore he pays me board. When he starts studying
again, he doesn't have to (here, mostly kids stay at home during
tertiary studies, or flat somewhere..we don't do the "go away to
college" thing). If/when he moves out of home, he'll most likely take
his bed and some other of his furniture with him, and I will use his
room for something else...either DS2 will move in there, or it will
become the junk room. None of this comes as a total shock to him; it's
not like it had never been discussed. If his sensibilities are offended,
then I think that I have done something wrong as the parent. I would
hope that he is more emotionally attached to other, less tangible things
within the family. Eg: just coming home to share a meal with us around
the table, and then playing a game as a family (scrabble, crib, chicken
foot are family traditions), or hanging out in the yard playing cricket
or frisbee.
If there comes a time, after any of my children move out, that they need
to move back, they also know that they are welcome and that I would help
out in any way I can. Just don't expect to sleep in "their" room with
"their" childhood memorabilia still on the shelves/walls.
Narelle
Ericka Kammerer
> Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
> But it does seem cold if as soon as the kid is out the door if his mom
> completely redecorates his room and makes a permanent guest room out
> of it while stowing or throwing out all of the college student's
> things.
Again, I never said they should.
>>> or charging rent if they go locally and commute
>> If you'll go back and re-read, you'll see that I never
>> suggested charging rent to a child who is living at home and
>> going to school.
>>
> You cut what everyone said and all the attributions off when you
> protested that what you said wasn't cold. So I can't re-read.
The posts are all still there if you just go back up
the thread.
>>> is having
>>> your own interests in the center and not theirs,
>> So even though they are at least 18 years old, there
>> is absolutely no sense that they should ever consider the needs
>> of anyone else? The parents' lives continue to revolve exclusively
>
> I didn't say that either.
Then perhaps you are not disagreeing with what *I* have
said and might possibly wish to direct your accusations of being
"cold" to someone else or chalk it up to a misinterpretation on
your part.
> I don't think the room should be 'off limits' of kept as any kind of
> shrine. Just that the person, even though 18 is still part of the
> family and his/her input should ALSO be considered. Just because he
> has gone out to college, doesn't mean he/she isn't still part of the
> family and not to be included in any discussion. As a mother, I WANT
> my children to come home and visit me, and I don't want to send any
> kind of signal that indicates I'm done with them.
Being part of the family does not require that one's
parents maintain all one's stuff well into adulthood. Using
the room for other needed purposes only sends that message if
the child feels a sense of entitlement to the room beyond his
or her ability to use it.
>> As I said, my parents have two guests rooms in pretty
>> heavy rotation. Is it such a bad thing to enjoy hosting guests?
>> To take in others who might be in a rough spot and in need of a
>> place to stay? To *wish* to offer the hospitality of your home,
>> rather than asking folks to stay in a hotel? To wish to decorate
>> your own home in a way that pleases you and your guests once your
>> child is perfectly capable of maintaining his or her own home?
>>
> No that's not bad if the child IS maintaining his/her own home. But
> at college they aren't doing that yet. I'm sure a reasonable older
> teen would not mind his/her room being used while he was gone or even
> converted to another use. It was the draconian scenario that I was
> objecting to.
Then you might consider that you should attribute being
"cold" to someone who actually advocated that scenario.
> Although I've never been much in favor of 'decorating'. As long as
> the colors are compatible, I would rather reuse my same furniture and
> maybe recover the upholstery. I don't want my home to look like some
> kind of magazine layout - not that there's any danger of that anyway.
> My house can serve (as Peg Bracken once remarked) as a bad example so
> that everyone else can feel superior.
Which is fine for you. Others might make a different
choice. That doesn't make them cold or mean that they're
rejecting their child.
>>> Perhaps you have indications now that your child/children will think
>>> they have a roof and maid services for their whole lives, but I would
>>> tend to doubt it from the way you write here. My children certainly
>>> were not that way, nor was I, even though my mom welcomed me back for
>>> extended visit and even though occasionally my children have come back
>>> home for short period. Without paying rent.
>> Again, if you re-read, you will see that I never
>
> I don't know who said that - it's not on this post.
As far as I can tell, *NO ONE* advocated that,
so it would have been difficult to leave such a statement
in the post.
>> expressed any intention of charging rent for children home during
>> college breaks, home during emergencies, or home for some other
>> similar reason. I would certainly hope that my children would
>> want to be self-supporting, would make good choices, and would
>> not feel a sense of entitlement. If they don't, I'll certainly
>> do what I can to put the incentives in the right place.
>>
> You did say that you saw many examples of deadbeat kids.
I said that I have seen many examples of kids taking
shameless advantage of their parents. I wouldn't go so far
as to say they were all deadbeats, but I still think it's
inappropriate behavior to make choices to have a lifestyle
that depends on your parents pitching in to do what you
should be doing for your own family. I don't think it's
all that uncommon. In fact, it seems to be quite a bit of
a trend, between "boomerang children" and grandparents caring
for grandchildren and so on. (There are times when those
things are legitimate or truly by the parent/grandparent's
choice, but often it's about a parent/grandparent stepping
in because they can't bear the alternative for their child/
grandchild after poor choices have been made.)
Best wishes,
Ericka
Sue
> My point was that I had not made the extreme comments
> that were attributed to me. In addition, I am surprised that
> so many seem to think that an 18 year old young adult has
> no responsibility to suck it up and cope with sharing space
> he or she isn't even inhabiting in order to benefit other
> family members, when and if there is in fact some benefit to
> the family to share the use of the room while still having
> space to accommodate the college student during breaks from
> school.
Don't worry Ericka, I get what you're saying and I agree with you 100%.
As far as rent, I personally will only charge rent if the child is a
deadbeat and not helping herself to grow up and move along. Although, I have
always said that I would put the rent money in a special bank account or
investment and then give it back to the child to help in buying a house or
schooling, whatever the child might need.
I have to chuckle though as I am reminded of friends of ours who have 5
children. One boy and four girls. The girls have had to share a room and the
boy did have a room to himself. Once they started moving out/going to
college/getting married, an empty room meant someone was going to get it and
probably pretty quickly. Our friends always were welcoming children back
home, but it was understood that they probably didn't have their room. They
are a very close knit family.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)
Stephanie
I go on record as agreeing with you on this one.
Stephanie
> "Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> My point was that I had not made the extreme comments
>> that were attributed to me. In addition, I am surprised that
>> so many seem to think that an 18 year old young adult has
>> no responsibility to suck it up and cope with sharing space
>> he or she isn't even inhabiting in order to benefit other
>> family members, when and if there is in fact some benefit to
>> the family to share the use of the room while still having
>> space to accommodate the college student during breaks from
>> school.
>
> Don't worry Ericka, I get what you're saying and I agree with you
> 100%.
> As far as rent, I personally will only charge rent if the child is a
> deadbeat and not helping herself to grow up and move along. Although,
> I have always said that I would put the rent money in a special bank
> account or investment and then give it back to the child to help in
> buying a house or schooling, whatever the child might need.
>
When I lived at home after college, my parents charged rent. I was not a
deadbeat. I had a job. I was trying to find a place to live close to my
work, whcih was in Boston. Big city. I was intimidated and wanted to take my
time. My house was originally inhabited by 2 parents, 7 children,
occaissionally a g'ma, etcetera. Big house. Mom, Dad and I were living
there... Not a huge problem. But they felt that since I was working a really
good job, they ought to charge me rent on general principle. I could find no
objection to that.
Banty
I don't think folks are really all that far apart on this one. I think that if
there are youngers sharing, *of course* the room setup will change quickly.
To me, the issue is more of what the timing, circumstances, and apparent
motivations are. It's something to think about, just like in any relationship.
It's sorta like the issue in another thread about sharing rooms when the kids
are younger. Kids can and do manage to get along well enough to share a
bedroom, or have to buck up if they must. But if there's some difficulty and
there's a little-used room just sitting there and for some stubborn reason it
isn't considered available to solve the difficulty, then there would be a
measure of resentment which is a lot different than if there *isn't* such a room
available.
I think when this issue was first brought up, all that was being said is that it
*can be* jarring to find the childhood bedroom changed over too quick.
Banty
Rosalie B.
and unpick every nit.
Erika wrote
>> I mean really, how adult is it to
>>expect that your parents will have rooms in their house sitting
>>unused for nine months out of every year?
You later said
> I don't think it's something
>that is *owed* to any normal, healthy child-
This implies to me that if your parents have the rooms sitting unused
that they are somehow enabling immature behavior.
> I was raised to believe that there would come a time when
>I was to be an adult and make my own way in the world. Even as
>a freshman in college, I'd have lived on Ramen for a month
>rather than call and ask for money from my parents. I felt
>that it was a time for me to take care of myself to the
>maximum extent possible (which wasn't 100 percent at that time,
>but I was darned well going to do what I could). I just wouldn't
>have had the gall to tell my parents that they couldn't use
>my room while I was gone because I knew I was a short-timer
>at that point in my parents' home. Sure, there could have been
>circumstances that would have forced me back there longer term,
>and they would have been happy to accommodate (in fact I did live
>there for a year between undergrad and grad school because I knew
>it was only going to be a one year break and they offered), but
>I always felt a little like a guest in the home after leaving
>for college because in my opinion, I *was* a guest. They'd
>fulfilled their obligation to keep a roof over my head, and
>the rest was just gravy.
I was raised to believe that I was going to be an adult and make my
own way in the world, but that there was nothing wrong with going to
my parents for help if I needed it especially in the transition period
which a freshman in college surely is. This is the main point that I
felt was COLD and I still feel that way. I'm sorry that you think it
is wrong for me to feel that way, but that's the way I feel and I
don't think I should have to justify or defend it.
I was confident that my mom would welcome me back home, even after I
was grown and had a family of my own, and it was still my home. I was
not a guest - I was still part of the family, although of course there
were some things to be discussed like how finances were to be handled.
My grandmother wrote in her 50th anniversary college publication, she
said that she was always homesick for her home in NC (she lived in
PA). And she spent a lot of time at home with her parents when my
mother was a child. My mother actually originally had a southern
accent because I think she was in NC with her mom and grandparents
more than she was in PA.
We've always helped out our children where we could. Having their
rooms available to them was only part of it. DH and I help them move
and DH has done numerous jobs to help our children with their houses -
from helping to re-roof after Hurricane Andrew in Miami to figuring
out the electrical problems which caused the bathroom light switch to
blow a fuse. We've provided them cars, and DH has repaired the cars
for them. I don't think we ever gave them money (except temporarily -
I went to a house closing for dd#1 when she was overseas and they
miscalculated the cash that would be owed at closing, so I wrote a
check for that but she repaid me right away) but when we visit we
always take everyone out to dinner at least once.
> I wouldn't dismantle the room the day after my child left
>for college, but I wouldn't feel compelled to let a room sit
>that fallow for years on end while the people living in the
>home year round are cramped for space either.
But if they are not cramped for space? It seems like you assume that
everyone is cramped for space and therefore it MUST be wrong that the
rooms are not being used for something else
>. For myself, I can't make
>sense of the idea that a significant portion of my home
>should be off limits to more practical uses in order to
>maintain a space for children who are grown adults with
>homes of their own.... I certainly don't have any hard feelings that my childhood room
>no longer exists! I would actually think it rather odd if it did.
So here you are saying that if I keep my children's rooms and don't do
something else with them that I'm ODD.
We bought the houses we bought and lived in the houses we lived in so
that we would not be cramped for space. We took other options that
cost in other ways - sometimes the house was a complete fixer-upper
which we lived in while we fixed it up (our current house), and
sometimes it was a slightly longer commute - there are always trade
offs.
My sister has a tiny house in town so that they can walk everywhere,
and they are cramped for space. When her children and grandchildren
come to visit they have to stay in a hotel. We chose to have space
and be out in the country (which we prefer anyway). About a mile from
town but it is a small town.
Your whole focus seems to be that the parents MUST be cramped for
space and not repurposing the student's space MUST BE because the
student is immature and selfish.
My point is that if there is no real pressing need for the space, then
repurposing it quickly (or at all) is cold.
> I just make a distinction between what is *normal* to
>feel and what standard we should hold ourselves to. I.e., we
>all have some fears and ambivalence about becoming independent
>(or having our children become independent), but that doesn't
>mean that we shouldn't have expectations about their becoming
>independent or that we should coddle them by making it effortless
>to remain dependent. At that stage of the game, if both sides
>aren't a tad uncomfortable, there's probably something wrong! ;-)
Even though there is a smiley there - I don't agree. Yes children
should become independent. But helping them out isn't necessarily
'coddling'
Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
People who never make poor choices aren't human. Parents who don't
want to help their children after they've made poor choices are cold.
Children who accept the help gratefully and try to pay back the parent
are mature adults. Parents who lead their children to expect that all
their chestnuts will be pulled out of the fire are unwise. Children
who expect that their parents will always step in are mooches and
immature. Probably but not always because of unwise choices on the
part of the parents - who are just human.
>Best wishes,
>Ericka
hedgehog42
> But it does seem cold if as soon as the kid is out the door if his mom
> completely redecorates his room and makes a permanent guest room out
> of it while stowing or throwing out all of the college student's
> things.
When I was away at college my sophomore year, my dad took a new job &
they sold the house & moved out of state. I found out accidentally
when I happened to call home and they were skedaddling out for the
open house . They hadn't planned on telling me until after my final
exams, to avoid "stressing" me. THAT was way more unsettling than
coming home the previous year and seeing my sister moved into "my"
room.
Our 21yo dropped out of college and is living at home, working many
hours and paying rent. Frankly, I prefer having her in a safer
neighborhood than she'd be able to afford on her paycheck (even with a
roommate), and she's close enough to be able to walk to work, (though
it's more challenging with the harsher winter we're having now), thus
avoiding car/bus expenses.
We didn't charge rent when she was a student, but it seems unfair *to
her* not to do so now. At this point, it enables her to see herself as
an adult contributing to the household rather than a freeloader, and
it's been good incentive to manage her money better.
Lori
Banty
hedgehog42 says...
>
>On Feb 16, 10:05 pm, Rosalie B. <gmbeas...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> But it does seem cold if as soon as the kid is out the door if his mom
>> completely redecorates his room and makes a permanent guest room out
>> of it while stowing or throwing out all of the college student's
>> things.
>
>When I was away at college my sophomore year, my dad took a new job &
>they sold the house & moved out of state. I found out accidentally
>when I happened to call home and they were skedaddling out for the
>open house . They hadn't planned on telling me until after my final
>exams, to avoid "stressing" me. THAT was way more unsettling than
>coming home the previous year and seeing my sister moved into "my"
>room.
They said they didn't want to upset you until after finals, but apparently you
didn't hear about your sister moving in, either. I'd say what's upsetting is
being persona non grata suddenly.
>
>Our 21yo dropped out of college and is living at home, working many
>hours and paying rent. Frankly, I prefer having her in a safer
>neighborhood than she'd be able to afford on her paycheck (even with a
>roommate), and she's close enough to be able to walk to work, (though
>it's more challenging with the harsher winter we're having now), thus
>avoiding car/bus expenses.
>
>We didn't charge rent when she was a student, but it seems unfair *to
>her* not to do so now. At this point, it enables her to see herself as
>an adult contributing to the household rather than a freeloader, and
>it's been good incentive to manage her money better.
Yep.
That's pretty much where I'd draw the line, and others I know IRL draw the line.
Kid is living home whole going to college or vocational school - no rent, even
if the I were are not financing the education. (If I am, it'd be dumb to pay
then take back room and board..) Kid working and living at home - time for a
more formal arrangement including rent and a percentage of groceries. And that
can't happen forever either, in normal circumstances (not past, say, 25 at the
outside). He's got an independant streak like I do; I'm confident he won't take
advantage just to hang around or buy a fancy car instead of striking out on his
own. If it gets to that, I'd lobby for him to go. Depends on the
circumstances, y'know.
BTW, some friends of mine with a young man who *did* tend to want to just hang
out, they did have to kick him out. He struggled, so they had an arrangement
that let him return home but made him pay rent, and he got the deal only if he
went to a trade school and got an apartment with his first job(he did; and he
did). They had saved the rent they got and gave it back to him as a surprise
some time after he finally struck out on his own, to get him started on a house.
Gave him the shove *and* the love. :)
Consideration of the period of higher education as different - it just seems to
be the common sense line that's widely recognized. For example, my firm would
allow me to keep him on my health insurance past a certain age *if* he's in
college.
Banty
Ericka Kammerer
> I'm going to top post because this is making me too angry to go back
> and unpick every nit.
>
> Erika wrote
>
>>> I mean really, how adult is it to
>>> expect that your parents will have rooms in their house sitting
>>> unused for nine months out of every year?
>
> You later said
>
>> I don't think it's something
>> that is *owed* to any normal, healthy child-
>
> This implies to me that if your parents have the rooms sitting unused
> that they are somehow enabling immature behavior.
No, I actually meant literally what I wrote: that
a normal, healthy child (i.e., one without physical or mental
disabilities or other issues that would create unusual situations
that would have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis) is
not owed a room at his or her parents' home in perpetuity, or
even during his or her college years. If that were so, it would
be a terrible thing to allow a sibling who'd been sharing a room
to move in. I don't owe my children the latest video game they
want, but choosing to buy it for them doesn't mean that I am
enabling immature behavior. It just means I've chosen to do
something for them that is not mandatory.
>> I was raised to believe that there would come a time when
>> I was to be an adult and make my own way in the world. Even as
>> a freshman in college, I'd have lived on Ramen for a month
>> rather than call and ask for money from my parents. I felt
>> that it was a time for me to take care of myself to the
>> maximum extent possible (which wasn't 100 percent at that time,
>> but I was darned well going to do what I could). I just wouldn't
>> have had the gall to tell my parents that they couldn't use
>> my room while I was gone because I knew I was a short-timer
>> at that point in my parents' home. Sure, there could have been
>> circumstances that would have forced me back there longer term,
>> and they would have been happy to accommodate (in fact I did live
>> there for a year between undergrad and grad school because I knew
>> it was only going to be a one year break and they offered), but
>> I always felt a little like a guest in the home after leaving
>> for college because in my opinion, I *was* a guest. They'd
>> fulfilled their obligation to keep a roof over my head, and
>> the rest was just gravy.
>
> I was raised to believe that I was going to be an adult and make my
> own way in the world, but that there was nothing wrong with going to
> my parents for help if I needed it especially in the transition period
> which a freshman in college surely is.
Again, different folks can feel differently. I believe
that if you want the privileges of being independent, then you
have to shoulder the responsibilities. When I was a freshman,
I wanted the privileges of being independent. I wanted my parents
to know I could handle myself, manage my money, etc. Therefore,
while I knew they would help whenever necessary, I did not want
to ask them to help any more than absolutely necessary, and if
I did not manage my money well, I would do everything in my power
to deal with the consequences myself rather than calling in the
cavalry to rescue my sorry butt. I still think that's appropriate
behavior for an adult. We can certainly agree to disagree.
> This is the main point that I
> felt was COLD and I still feel that way. I'm sorry that you think it
> is wrong for me to feel that way, but that's the way I feel and I
> don't think I should have to justify or defend it.
>
> I was confident that my mom would welcome me back home, even after I
> was grown and had a family of my own, and it was still my home. I was
> not a guest - I was still part of the family, although of course there
> were some things to be discussed like how finances were to be handled.
I am still part of the family, and probably spend more
time in my parents' home than just about anyone here (seeing as
they live next door and I frequently dog sit for them). Nevertheless,
in my opinion it is *their* home and it is *their* right to do with
it absolutely as they please.
>> I wouldn't dismantle the room the day after my child left
>> for college, but I wouldn't feel compelled to let a room sit
>> that fallow for years on end while the people living in the
>> home year round are cramped for space either.
>
> But if they are not cramped for space? It seems like you assume that
> everyone is cramped for space and therefore it MUST be wrong that the
> rooms are not being used for something else
Again, never said that. I said that it made no sense to
me to let the room lie fallow for years WHILE THE PEOPLE LIVING
IN THE HOME YEAR ROUND ARE CRAMPED FOR SPACE. I didn't say anything
about whether it made sense to let the room lie fallow if the people
living in the home weren't cramped for space. And in fact, I said
elsewhere:
"As I said before, if there really is nothing more pressing
to do with the space, that's one thing."
>> . For myself, I can't make
>> sense of the idea that a significant portion of my home
>> should be off limits to more practical uses in order to
>> maintain a space for children who are grown adults with
>> homes of their own.... I certainly don't have any hard feelings that my childhood room
>> no longer exists! I would actually think it rather odd if it did.
>
> So here you are saying that if I keep my children's rooms and don't do
> something else with them that I'm ODD.
Are you determined to make my posts say what you wish
they did instead of what they actually say? Again, I meant
exactly what I typed. I said I would think it odd if my
childhood room still existed. I know my parents' home and my
parents' lives and it makes no sense whatsoever for them to have
maintained my childhood room. I don't need it. They have other
needs for that room. If they were hanging onto it despite their
alternative needs and my total lack of need for it, it would seem
quite odd to me.
>> I just make a distinction between what is *normal* to
>> feel and what standard we should hold ourselves to. I.e., we
>> all have some fears and ambivalence about becoming independent
>> (or having our children become independent), but that doesn't
>> mean that we shouldn't have expectations about their becoming
>> independent or that we should coddle them by making it effortless
>> to remain dependent. At that stage of the game, if both sides
>> aren't a tad uncomfortable, there's probably something wrong! ;-)
>
> Even though there is a smiley there - I don't agree. Yes children
> should become independent. But helping them out isn't necessarily
> 'coddling'
I didn't say that helping them out was coddling. I said
making it effortless to remain dependent was coddling. I think
there's a difference.
>
> Ericka Kammerer <e...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Rosalie B. wrote:
>> I said that I have seen many examples of kids taking
>> shameless advantage of their parents. I wouldn't go so far
>> as to say they were all deadbeats, but I still think it's
>> inappropriate behavior to make choices to have a lifestyle
>> that depends on your parents pitching in to do what you
>> should be doing for your own family. I don't think it's
>> all that uncommon. In fact, it seems to be quite a bit of
>> a trend, between "boomerang children" and grandparents caring
>> for grandchildren and so on. (There are times when those
>> things are legitimate or truly by the parent/grandparent's
>> choice, but often it's about a parent/grandparent stepping
>> in because they can't bear the alternative for their child/
>> grandchild after poor choices have been made.)
>>
> People who never make poor choices aren't human. Parents who don't
> want to help their children after they've made poor choices are cold.
There's a difference between helping and enabling.
> Children who accept the help gratefully and try to pay back the parent
> are mature adults.
...and who stop making the choices that force them to
remain dependent on their parents. The ones who continue to
make choices that force them to be dependent on their parents
are continuing to exhibit immaturity and dependence. That
parents/grandparents who continue to bail them out are enabling.
> Parents who lead their children to expect that all
> their chestnuts will be pulled out of the fire are unwise. Children
> who expect that their parents will always step in are mooches and
> immature. Probably but not always because of unwise choices on the
> part of the parents - who are just human.
I don't quite know why you are so upset (after all, you
weren't the one called "cold" or any other insult), but you are
clearly out to re-interpret my posts to mean what you wish to
force them to mean. I said I knew many cases of children who
took advantage of their parents. You then said that you hadn't
seen that many deadbeats. I clarified that I meant kids taking
advantage of their parents by subsidizing their lifestyle by
depending on their parents to provide housing/money/childcare/
whatever. You then respond by saying everyone makes bad choices
on occasion. However, I wasn't *talking* about people who make
occasional bad choices. I was *talking* about people who
take advantage of their parents, which I think rather implies
a deliberate choice rather than an occasional mistake. Perhaps
you haven't seen this phenomenon, but when I said I know many
who take advantage of their parents, I meant just that. I'm not
too stupid to distinguish between an occasional honest mistake
and someone who simply expects that mom and dad will continually
provide whatever they need but don't elect to provide for themselves.
If you want to pick a fight, go ahead, but please don't
try to put words into my mouth and then pounce on them as if I've
subscribed to positions that I haven't.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> We didn't charge rent when she was a student, but it seems unfair *to
> her* not to do so now. At this point, it enables her to see herself as
> an adult contributing to the household rather than a freeloader, and
> it's been good incentive to manage her money better.
I certainly understand that position. It's like the
person who always takes you out to dinner but never allows
you to reciprocate. It puts you in a subordinate position,
and tells you that they don't see you as an equal or as someone
capable of extending hospitality. My parents are usually good
about this, but I often have to put my foot down. They want
me to dog sit for four or five days later this spring and want
to pay me for it. Once again, I had to say that no way would
I accept money for it, because if they choose to do things for
us sometimes (which they do), they need to allow us the dignity
of being able to do for them on occasion as well. Otherwise,
I'll have to start paying them for babysitting if they're going
to pay me for dogsitting! Once I make that point, they get it
and stand down, but we all get wound up in not wanting to impose
and so on sometimes. If there's going to be a true adult
relationship, however, I think it's important to allow both
sides to contribute. That doesn't always take the form of
rent, but there has to be *something* so that both parties
contribute.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Rosalie B.
> If you want to pick a fight, go ahead, but please don't
>try to put words into my mouth and then pounce on them as if I've
>subscribed to positions that I haven't.
I'm really not trying to pick a fight. I quoted what you said because
you said that I was misquoting you and I should go back and read what
was written. I did read what was written. I just wanted to show you
that I HAD.
I still don't feel that it is necessary to make an across the board
rule of some kind that it is BETTER for parents and children to do as
you have indicated that you and your parents did. i.e. feeling like a
guest in your own parents house and eating noodles for a month. I
think you are overboard on the other side. I wouldn't want to feel
like a guest in my parent's house and I wouldn't want my kids to feel
that way either. I don't want to be told that wanting my children to
feel that this is still their home is wrong or bad for the kids.
Kick the deadbeat kid out (nicely - not enabling by always bailing him
- it's usually a him - out).
And IME if you find kids who take advantage of their parents over and
over - it probably started long before college or HS. And it's going
to be way harder for both sides to get out of the habit of babying the
child if it has lasted until the child is an adult.
But don't take it out on the good kids or expect that it will be a
problem..
My mom did have guests, but she would rather have her children and
grandchildren come and stay with her than any guests. If my mom had
indicated that she wanted to have unrelated guests stay rather than
me, I'd be very hurt.
I feel guilty because ATM I can't have my children come and stay here
because my mom's stuff is still clogging up the rooms. Last time they
all came (Oct 2007) with their families (and this is four children,
four inlaws, 10 grandchildren, one fiance and 5 friends of the oldest
grandchild), I just couldn't have any of them stay here because the
house is not safe for little ones and most of the beds are stowed to
save space. So they all had to drive down for the day (one couple,
three grandchildren, one fiance and 5 friends), or stay in a motel
(the other three couples and 7 grandchildren). I should have been
able to house at least ONE of the families, if not two. We have 4
bedrooms (3 of them that we don't sleep in) which normally have beds
in them, and also a sleep sofa in the family room.