a sore bottom
Ryan Hart
I'm a boy. I just turned 15. My Mom is pretty
strict with me. The last time I got spanked was a
month ago. I have always been kind of a brat at
times. Mom never gives in. I used to get spanked
quite frequently. Whenever she spanks me, she makes
sure to give me a real sore bottom. She uses a
hairbrush on me on the bare. I'd like to know, don't
parents think that a spanking should just be light to
get the point across that the kid is being punished?
I think it's unfair to give a kid a sore bottom. Does
anyone agree? I want to talk about this with Mom.
PhreeX
According to Ryan Hart ......
>
>I'm a boy. I just turned 15. My Mom is pretty
>strict with me. The last time I got spanked was a
>month ago.
Thats fucked up! if you let your mom spank you at 15 you and your mom BOTH
need help!
>I have always been kind of a brat at
>times. Mom never gives in. I used to get spanked
>quite frequently. Whenever she spanks me, she makes
>sure to give me a real sore bottom. She uses a
>hairbrush on me on the bare.
Good lord, does she get off on this stuff or something? you need to tell the
bitch to lay off (better yet call HRS then sue her)
>I'd like to know, don't
>parents think that a spanking should just be light to
>get the point across that the kid is being punished?
>I think it's unfair to give a kid a sore bottom. Does
>anyone agree? I want to talk about this with Mom.
Uhh .. spanking is for *LITTLE* kids, BTW using a brush is *NOT* spanking its
beating, a smack on the ass is allright for kids but after the age of 6 or 7
its starting to get weird!
--
**NOTICE** Send all e-mail to phr...@ao.net, replying to the e-mail address
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"I am not one of those weak-spirited, sappy Americans who want
to be liked by all the people around them. I don't care if people
hate my guts; I assume most of them do. The important question
is: 'What are they in a position to do about it?'"
(William S. Burroughs)
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Lori Russell
I'm a mom of a 12-year old boy, and though I don't know you, your mom or
your family, my personal opinion is that 15 is WAY TOO OLD to be getting
spankings. Of any kind. I don't spank my son at all anymore, and instead
send him to his room or ground him or stuff like that.
I think you need to sit down with your mom, and let her know that spanking
embarrasses you, and that you are willing to act a bit more mature than
you have been (remember, you're the one who said you're kind of a brat).
In 3 years, you're out on your own, or could be, so it's time you start
acting like the adult you want to be treated like.
But I really do think you and your mom need to have a talk. It seems to
me like she's still needing to feel she has some control over you, and
maybe she spanks you as a last resort because you won't listen. Talk it
over, find out her reasons, but do tell her that you're WAY too old for a
spanking.
In article <32CB02...@hotmail.com>, Ryan Hart <rh2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm a boy. I just turned 15. My Mom is pretty
>>> strict with me. The last time I got spanked was a
>>> month ago. I have always been kind of a brat at
>>> times. Mom never gives in. I used to get spanked
>>> quite frequently. Whenever she spanks me, she makes
>>> sure to give me a real sore bottom. She uses a
>>> hairbrush on me on the bare. I'd like to know, don't
>>> parents think that a spanking should just be light to
>>> get the point across that the kid is being punished?
>>> I think it's unfair to give a kid a sore bottom. Does
>>> anyone agree? I want to talk about this with Mom.
--
Lori Russell <loru...@rockies.net>
wal...@donovan.com
This may be cynical, but this original post sounds like a troll to me
posted by someone from one of the sexual deviancy groups who likes to
talk about spanking and sore bottoms. This may be wrong -- but we have
a lot of people who come into this group to yank our chains and this
one sure has all the earmarks.
In article <lorusd18-020...@206.87.32.131>, loru...@rockies.net
(Lori Russell) wrote:
k
Ryan Hart
I need to give some background.
I have two younger brothers, 10 and 6. They get
spanked a lot. My baby sister is 4 and she gets
spanked every day. At times, I've tried to stop
my mother from spanking them, but I can never
succeed. She's given me a spanking for trying to
stop her.
My Mom and Dad say that a child needs to be
trained to obey. I've been spanked ever since I
can remember.
Please help. Please give me suggestions on
how to stand up to her. Please remember that I want
to help my younger brothers and sister too. What
should I do?
I'm sure that people can imagine what it's like
to be in my position. I am not embarrassed by a
spanking. I've had too many to be embarrassed. The
main thing I think about is my bottom which is so
sore after a spanking.
I get mad at myself at times because I have never
refused to take a spanking. I'd like to refuse to
let her spank me. But, I guess it's just habit. I've
been spanked ever since I can remember.
My Dad doesn't spank me since I'm a boy. Dad told
me once that it looks cruel for a father to spank a
son because it looks brutal.
My Mom does hug me and hold me after a spanking. She
always did that. I'm very close to my mother. I get
mad when she tells me that she's going to spank me.
I hate to get a spanking, but it does create a strong
personal emotional closeness between my mother and me.
I want to stand up to her and refuse to be spanked.
It is hard for me. Please understand. I was trained to
take a spanking. It's a habit. It feels like I'm doing
something wrong to disobey.
I just want to be treated as an adult in every way.
I am willing to take on the responsibility an adult
has. I am entitled to the dignity an adult has.
I am not allowed to smoke or drink. Whenever
I am caught, I get spanked. I have a midnight curfew,
but I don't observe it. My Mom overlooks that most
of the time. But if I'm real late, she just gives
me a spanking right in the kitchen.
There have been times when I've done some things
even I've been ashamed of. But, I never felt a
spanking was appropriate for anything. When I was
9, I set a big fire in the middle of the lawn and it
got out of control. That's an example.
Mostly now, I get spanked for smoking, drinking,
or flying into a rage when I throw things around. The
biggest problem is smoking and drinking and arguing
when she spanks the young ones. She makes me mad when
she spanks them. I fly into a rage and she spanks me.
She says that the spankings are for defiance.
I continue to smoke and drink. I believe in rebelling
against something that is wrong. I have the right to
smoke and drink no matter what anyone says. I will
fight to the last drop of blood in my body. I will
not stop smoking and drinking.
Kara L. Buntin
In <walker-0201...@129.59.196.38> wal...@donovan.com writes:
>
>
>This may be cynical, but this original post sounds like a troll to me
>posted by someone from one of the sexual deviancy groups who likes to
>talk about spanking and sore bottoms. This may be wrong -- but we
have
>a lot of people who come into this group to yank our chains and this
>one sure has all the earmarks.
>
>
Definitely a troll--when was the last time you heard a 15-yr-old use
the word "bottom" ?
Marshall Hillyer
Ryan Hart <rh2...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<32CCA6...@hotmail.com>...
> I need to give some background.
>
> My Mom and Dad say that a child needs to be
> trained to obey. I've been spanked ever since I
> can remember.
Are you by any chance Christian?
>
> Please help. Please give me suggestions on
> how to stand up to her. Please remember that I want
> to help my younger brothers and sister too. What
> should I do?
>
I really don't think you should stand up to her. If your mother is set on
spanking your sibblings, she will do it while you are not around. If I
were you, I'd keep an eye on her while she spanks them, that way, at least
you know that she's not going too far.
> I'm sure that people can imagine what it's like
> to be in my position. I am not embarrassed by a
> spanking. I've had too many to be embarrassed. The
> main thing I think about is my bottom which is so
> sore after a spanking.
I've had a sore bottom. And so has my step-daughter, and so has my
girlfriend. We all have. It's nothing to gripe about!
>
> My Mom does hug me and hold me after a spanking. She
> always did that. I'm very close to my mother. I get
> mad when she tells me that she's going to spank me.
Well at least you get he hugs and stuff after a spanking. *I* never got
that!!
>
> I hate to get a spanking, but it does create a strong
> personal emotional closeness between my mother and me.
>
No doubt. Spanking is a very intiment time between parent and child. It's
NOT sexual however. (At least not to me)
> I want to stand up to her and refuse to be spanked.
> It is hard for me. Please understand. I was trained to
> take a spanking. It's a habit. It feels like I'm doing
> something wrong to disobey.
From what you are saying, I get the impression that you are Christian.
Read my coments at the bottom.
>
> I just want to be treated as an adult in every way.
> I am willing to take on the responsibility an adult
> has. I am entitled to the dignity an adult has.
You're 15 right? I'd like to point out, that where I live, 15 is not
considered an adult.
>
> I am not allowed to smoke or drink. Whenever
> I am caught, I get spanked. I have a midnight curfew,
> but I don't observe it. My Mom overlooks that most
> of the time. But if I'm real late, she just gives
> me a spanking right in the kitchen.
Where I live, 15 year olds are not allowed to smoke or drink. If my
step-daughter is caught doing that, you can bet she'll have a sore bottom
too!!
> Mostly now, I get spanked for smoking, drinking,
> or flying into a rage when I throw things around. The
> biggest problem is smoking and drinking and arguing
> when she spanks the young ones. She makes me mad when
> she spanks them. I fly into a rage and she spanks me.
> She says that the spankings are for defiance.
>
You sound defiant. I'd spank you too, if you were m kid.
> I continue to smoke and drink. I believe in rebelling
> against something that is wrong. I have the right to
> smoke and drink no matter what anyone says. I will
> fight to the last drop of blood in my body. I will
> not stop smoking and drinking.
Oh, boy, I wish you were my kid. I'd smack your ass till that attitude
changes. A 15yr old has no right to smoke, drink, drive or vote. A 15yr
old has the *obglation* to obey his/her parents, and the law. If you live
in my country (Canada), you are breaking the law.
If you are Christian, (and everything you said suggests that you are),
spanking is deeply rooted in the Bible. I won't get into a reglious debate
with anyone, because I abhor relgion. I can't stand it. If you are not
christian, I think maybe your mother has read books written by James
Dobson, Larry Christianson, Roy Lessin or someone like them.
If I made a mistake, and you are not 15, forgive me. I'm getting confused
with all the e-mail's and posts. I don't know what the legal ages are for
smoking, and drinking where you live, but I'm almost certian that you are
not old enough to be doind these adult activities.
My step-daughter is 11 years old. We will not allow her to wear make-up,
of have boys in the house. She is not allowed to go to a boy's house. If
I ever catch her smoking again, (she's been caught before) she'll be sorry.
As for her age, and still being spanked, well, as long as she lives under
my roof, she is subject to my rules, and my discipline. In 99% of the
cases, that means a spanking.
I wish you luck in the future, but I think that you richly deserve all the
spankings you are getting. As for your sibblings, I don't know. But I
wouldn't try to stop your mother If I were you. If you think that you or
your sibblings are being abused, I would suggest calling your local police
or child protection agency.
Peace in life...
wal...@donovan.com
In article <5ajjie$4...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, bun...@ix.netcom.com(Kara
L. Buntin) wrote:
> >
> >This may be cynical, but this original post sounds like a troll to me
> >posted by someone from one of the sexual deviancy groups who likes to
> >talk about spanking and sore bottoms. This may be wrong -- but we
> have
> >a lot of people who come into this group to yank our chains and this
> >one sure has all the earmarks.
> >
> >
>
> Definitely a troll--when was the last time you heard a 15-yr-old use
> the word "bottom" ?
Good point. That is in fact a dead giveaway that we are dealing with
one of the migrants from one of the perve groups.
k
Mike Duvos
"Marshall Hillyer" <mhil...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>Oh, boy, I wish you were my kid. I'd smack your ass till that attitude
>changes. A 15yr old has no right to smoke, drink, drive or vote. A 15yr
>old has the *obglation* to obey his/her parents, and the law. If you live
>in my country (Canada), you are breaking the law.
>If you are Christian, (and everything you said suggests that you are),
>spanking is deeply rooted in the Bible. I won't get into a reglious debate
>with anyone, because I abhor relgion. I can't stand it. If you are not
>christian, I think maybe your mother has read books written by James
>Dobson, Larry Christianson, Roy Lessin or someone like them.
What an asshole. Parents like this should be beaten to death with
a cast iron frying pan.
The arrogance of some parents, and the way they treat their kids like
doormats, never ceases to amaze me.
Do your kid a favor, and swallow a shotgun.
--
Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $
m...@netcom.com $ via Finger. $
Mike Duvos
Ryan Hart <rh2...@hotmail.com> writes:
> I have two younger brothers, 10 and 6. They get spanked a
> lot. My baby sister is 4 and she gets spanked every day. At
> times, I've tried to stop my mother from spanking them, but
> I can never succeed. She's given me a spanking for trying to
> stop her.
Your mother is a child abuser. It is apalling that any normal
adult would hit a four year old, much less hit her every single
day. Children have a right to grow up in an environment in which
they can feel safe. Your home is obviously not such a place.
Misc.kids is not where you should be seeking help for this
problem. Although parents have a variety of points of view on
their so-called "right" to beat their children, they will usually
stick up for each other against a young person, regardless of how
egregious the behavior of one of them is. Hence, you are likely
to get only unhelpful responses here, or an attempt to avoid the
issue entirely, or claim it is "inappropriate" for the newsgroup.
Your legal redress for this abuse will vary, depending upon where
you live. In some states, beatings are only considered to be
abuse if they leave lasting physical injury, and the CPS workers
will laugh in your face if you attempt to complain. In others,
your plight will be taken seriously, and your mother's violent
behavior will be dealt with in an appropriate fashion.
> My Mom and Dad say that a child needs to be trained to
> obey. I've been spanked ever since I can remember.
This is rationalization and batterer-babble.
> Please help. Please give me suggestions on how to stand up
> to her. Please remember that I want to help my younger
> brothers and sister too. What should I do?
First, you need to tell a responsible adult what your home
environment is like, and keep telling people until something is
done about the problem. You might start with counselors at
school, child protection services, and other such agencies. You
will quickly find out if you live in a state where kids can be
beaten without anything being done about it.
You are 15, and probably as strong as your mother. If everyone
bands together on your mother's side, and refuses to help you,
simply refuse to be assaulted any more and use whatever force is
necessary to enforce your own personal boundaries and limits.
Your siblings will be far better off if they do not have to grow
up in an environment where they are hit every day.
> I get mad at myself at times because I have never refused to
> take a spanking. I'd like to refuse to let her spank me.
> But, I guess it's just habit. I've been spanked ever since I
> can remember.
This sort of abuse by a parent is particularly despicable,
because children have built in inhibitions against injuring
parents or defending themselves when parents become violent. So
parents basically get away with almost anything, and any
emotional problems which result in the child are simply used as
an excuse for why the abuse was "necessary."
> My Mom does hug me and hold me after a spanking. She always
> did that. I'm very close to my mother. I get mad when she
> tells me that she's going to spank me.
This is emotional incest, and will really screw you up. Parents
often play such manipulative games for control purposes. Don't
fall for them, and refuse any expressions of affection you don't
feel comfortable with, or which clearly have an ulterior motive.
> I hate to get a spanking, but it does create a strong
> personal emotional closeness between my mother and me.
When the behavior of parents creates this kind of confusion
between love and violence, children often seek out such
relationships in their adult lives, and the cycle continues for
many generations. Break the cycle now! Don't grow up and find
yourself expressing your "love" for your wife and kids by endless
cycles of violence, followed by tearful "making up."
To adapt a slogan from the battered womens' movement
"If your parents hit you and then tell you they love you...
They Don't!"
> I want to stand up to her and refuse to be spanked.
Good for you! Just say "NO" to unwanted personal violations.
> I continue to smoke and drink. I believe in rebelling
> against something that is wrong. I have the right to smoke
> and drink no matter what anyone says. I will fight to the
> last drop of blood in my body. I will not stop smoking and
> drinking.
I understand your point of view here, but self-destructive
behavior is not the answer to escaping from parental tyranny.
Parents often create situations in which the only independent
choices left for a young person are self-destructive ones,
knowing that the inherent need for autonomy will push them in
that direction. Parents then use those bad choices as weapons
against you, and as an excuse for why their continuing domination
is necessary.
This is a very seductive trap, and you should take care not to
fall into it. If your parents make it so that the only decisions
you can make for yourself independent of their control of your
life are things like choosing to smoke and drink, they are
setting you up to fail big time as you get older.
Remember - "Success is the best revenge." Bide your time, plan
your future, and leave the cigarettes and liquor alone.
You might also check out self-defense skills, and learn how to
quickly snap the wrist of a person assaulting you in one simple
motion. Hopefully it will not come to this, but small children
are being mistreated in your home, and it is best to be prepared.
MARSHALL HILLYER
On Mon, 6 Jan 1997 01:06:03 GMT, m...@netcom.com (Mike Duvos) wrote:
>
>What an asshole. Parents like this should be beaten to death with
>a cast iron frying pan.
I'm so sorry you feel that way about me. Well, I won't lose a minutes
sleep over it.
>
>The arrogance of some parents, and the way they treat their kids like
>doormats, never ceases to amaze me.
My children will be rased having respect for their elders, the law,
and humankind. My kids, WON'T be doing gang-bangs, drive by
shootings, and going on murderours sprees.
>
>Do your kid a favor, and swallow a shotgun.
My doctor said I should get more iron in my diet. Thanks for the
suggestion, I think iron supplements will work fine though.
Ham...@krptn.com
In article <32d1e457....@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>,
mhil...@sympatico.ca (MARSHALL HILLYER) wrote:
>
> My children will be rased having respect for their elders, the law,
> and humankind. My kids, WON'T be doing gang-bangs, drive by
> shootings, and going on murderours sprees.
>
Most kids who do this type of thing have been spanked routinely
as children, so don't count on it. The one common thread in the
upbringing of young thugs is corporal punishment.
x
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Ham...@krptn.com wrote:
: In article <32d1e457....@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>,
: mhil...@sympatico.ca (MARSHALL HILLYER) wrote:
: > My children will be rased having respect for their elders, the law,
: > and humankind. My kids, WON'T be doing gang-bangs, drive by
: > shootings, and going on murderours sprees.
: Most kids who do this type of thing have been spanked routinely
: as children, so don't count on it.
Yes. The disproportionately *high* amount of corporal punishment
in the histories of young delinquents has been noted repeatedly in studies
dating back half a century. Not only are criminals more likely to have
been severely physically punished than the population average, criminals
who were *never* physically punished at all are disproportionately
*under*-represented with respect to their proportion in the general
population. (See Straus, 1994, for a review of the research literature).
: The one common thread in the upbringing of young thugs is corporal
: punishment.
How true. Yet the myth that youthful criminality is caused by
*lack* of spanking and/or insufficient severity of spanking, refuses to
die. No evidence, beyond anecdotes, exists in support of this claim. And
all of the research evidence available indicates just the opposite. The
more harshly and more frequently children are spanked, the greater the
statistical likelihood that they will engage in aggressive behavior
(Strassberg, et. al., 1994) and crime (Straus, 1991) as they grow to
adulthood and beyond.
Chris
REFERENCES
Strassberg, Z.; Dodge, K.A.; Petit, G.S. & Bates, J.E. 1994. "Spanking
in the Home and Children's Subsequent Aggression Toward Kindergarten
Peers." _Development and Psychopathology_, 6:445-461.
Straus, M.A. 1991. "Discipline and Deviance: Physical Punishment of
Children and Violence and Other Crime in Adulthood." _Social Problems_
38(2):133-155
Straus, M.A. 1994. _Beating The Devil Out of Them: Corporal Punishment
in American Families._ NYC: Lexington Books.
Dennis Randall
I would bet a dollar to a day old donut that this message is pure troll.
First off, he’s using a phony screen name. rh2...@aol.com - This is not
a known AOL member. (I checked).
This took a bit of snooping to find out – If you have a question about
anyone posting (me included) check the Author’s Profile at
http:www.Dejanews.com (OK, I was bored).
These people are news group freaks who pop in and drop a bomb just to
watch the reaction. (And I can’t believe I’m wasting my time responding
to this tripe.)
"Little" Ryan’s First Message:
Subject: a sore bottom
From: Ryan Hart <rh2...@hotmail.com>
Date: 1997/01/01
Message-Id: <32CB02...@hotmail.com>
>>The last time I got spanked was a
>>month ago. I have always been kind of a brat at
>>times. Mom never gives in. I used to get spanked
>>quite frequently. Whenever she spanks me, she makes
>>sure to give me a real sore bottom. She uses a
>>hairbrush on me on the bare. <CLIP>.
If the first message wasn’t a dead give away then the second was. Note
that this so called 15 year old creative writing youth was "spanked" a
month ago. In the next message <to further fan the flames from
responsible parents> he lets on that his baby sister gets spanked every
day.
Yah! Right.
"Little" Ryan’s Second Message:
Subject: Re: a sore bottom
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 22:26:08 -0800
From: Ryan Hart <rh2...@hotmail.com>
To: Ryan Hart <rh2...@aol.com>
Odd. Hotmail Ryan writes to AOL Ryan. Is he hard up for a pen pal?
>>I have two younger brothers, 10 and 6. They get
>>spanked a lot. My baby sister is 4 and she gets
>>spanked EVERY DAY <CLIP>
>>My Mom and Dad say that a child needs to be
>>trained to obey. I've been spanked ever since I
>>can remember.<CLIP>
>>Please help. Please give me suggestions on
>>how to stand up to her.
<CLIP>>The main thing I think about is my bottom
>>which is so sore after a spanking.
>>My Mom does hug me and hold me after a spanking. She
>>always did that. I'm very close to my mother. I get
>>mad when she tells me that she's going to spank me.<CLIP>
>>I hate to get a spanking, but it does create a strong
>>personal emotional closeness between my mother and me.
>><CLIP>I was trained to take a spanking. It's a habit.
>>It feels like I'm doing something wrong to disobey. <CLIP>
>>I am not allowed to smoke or drink. Whenever
>>I am caught, I get spanked. <CLIP>
>><CLIP>But, I never felt a
>>spanking was appropriate for anything. When I was
>>9, I set a big fire in the middle of the lawn and it
>>got out of control <CLIP>
<CLIP>
>>The biggest problem is smoking and drinking and arguing
>>when she spanks the young ones. She makes me mad when
>>she spanks them. I fly into a rage and she spanks me.
>>She says that the spankings are for defiance.
<EVEN MORE JUNK CLIPPED>
"trained to obey... hairbrush on...the bare... personal emotional
closeness... wrong to disobey... I think about... my bottom ...
appropriate ... rage... spankings are for defiance"
Do you know any raging 15 year olds who talk or write like this? I
don’t.
It’s spanking trolling – pure and simple. Posts which sound too good
--or bad-- to be true are usually not true. This one is a classic.
--
Dennis Randall
================================================
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood."
================================================
wal...@donovan.com
In article <32D476...@familyeducation.com>,
dran...@familyeducation.com wrote:
> I would bet a dollar to a day old donut that this message is pure troll.
> First off, he’s using a phony screen name. rh2...@aol.com - This is not
> a known AOL member. (I checked).
>
>
> "trained to obey... hairbrush on...the bare... personal emotional
> closeness... wrong to disobey... I think about... my bottom ...
> appropriate ... rage... spankings are for defiance"
>
> Do you know any raging 15 year olds who talk or write like this? I
> don’t.
>
> It’s spanking trolling – pure and simple. Posts which sound too good
> --or bad-- to be true are usually not true. This one is a classic.
>
> --
> Dennis Randall
Yes good analysis. And it is not only obviously a troll but
probably posted by someone typing with one hand. They have
a whole newsgroup for people who only get aroused when they
are spanked or talking about getting spanked -- this guy
obviously is trying to get off by getting earnest mothers
to 'sympathize' with his poor sore bottom.
k
Peter Korecek
In article <32D476...@familyeducation.com>,
dran...@familyeducation.com says...
>It’s spanking trolling – pure and simple. Posts which sound too good
>--or bad-- to be true are usually not true. This one is a classic.
>
>--
>Dennis Randall
I agree it's probably a troll. But we can still have a worthwhile
discussion about the issues it raises! And, hey, there's always
the possibility it isn't a troll.
BTW, since when is a 15yo "little"?
Pete
--
Can I have the next slide please?
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!o K++ w(+) O- M- V-- PS+(++) PE- Y+ PGP t+@ !5 X+(++) R-(*) tv
b++++ DI(+) D? G++ e+(--)>++++ h- r++@ y-
Wanda Lewis
There are times when a kid needs a hard spanking. A sore bottom
does wonders for the memory.
Iggy Drougge
Wanda Lewis (a...@aol.com) wrote:
: There are times when a kid needs a hard spanking. A sore bottom
: does wonders for the memory.
Who would be in need of being beaten? No civilized country treats
even criminals in that way, yet you claim that a child would be in need of
such brutal treatment.
--
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WWW: http://www.canit.se/~optimus | Sonic Code: Sal+++!^ | Team AMIGA
Robert W. Wozniak
Oh please... I don't think that a swat on the rear qualifies as "brutal
treatment"!
Iggy Drougge <opt...@canit.se> wrote in article
<5b6al7$8...@dos.canit.se>...
Vernon Quaintance
Iggy Drougge <opt...@canit.se> wrote:
> Wanda Lewis (a...@aol.com) wrote:
> : There are times when a kid needs a hard spanking. A sore bottom
> : does wonders for the memory.
>
> Who would be in need of being beaten? No civilized country treats
> even criminals in that way, yet you claim that a child would be in need of
> such brutal treatment.
Iggy has either never heard, or has chosen to ignore, the very true
saying: "Spare the rod and spoil the child".
Spanking needs to be done sparingly, but must be an option which the
child knows is available. When used the severity of the spanking (how
many strokes and how hard) should be related to both the age of the
child and the severity of the offence.
I would hardly call the Isle of Man - a self-governing part of the
British Isles - 'uncivilised', but they use judicial birching for
certain young offenders. It does a world of good in keeping juvenile
crime off the streets of this lovely little island.
--
Vernon Quaintance
Denny
In article <01bbff67$e5816f00$3c1760cf@agnesw>, "Robert W. Wozniak"
<agn...@erols.com> wrote:
> Oh please... I don't think that a swat on the rear qualifies as "brutal
> treatment"!
>
>
But, wouldn't a hug in reward for good behavior be more effective than violence?
IUL,
--->Denny
For Everything From Handwriting Analysis to UFO's, Check Out...
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Waylan
I was never spanked while growing up and I believe I would have done
better in school, not started smoking at 15, and taken my parents more
seriously if I had occasionally been given a sore bottom.
I have dated women who have children and the better behaved ones
have a mom that will spank them if there is a need to modify their
behavior. The others have moms that will let them throw tantrums at
age seven and even 13. They demand all of the mothers attention when
they want something and will become obnoxious until they are given
their way.
I enjoy adult spanking with a female and particularly as part of
foreplay, but I was never spanked as a child.
kbe...@icgroup.net
Wanda Lewis (a...@aol.com) wrote:
>: There are times when a kid needs a hard spanking. A sore bottom
>: does wonders for the memory.
It's funny, when remembering back on my childhood, the most things I
can remember are the things I got spanked for. I also remembe that I
never did those particular things again. I personally feel that a
well deserved spanking never hurt anyone. My mom and dad used
spanking on me and my three older sisters. There are times I probably
could have used it more! I have to agree with Wanda's statement
though. If your bottom hurts for something you did wrong, you're not
likely to repeat it.
David & Linda Holthaus
Waylan <way...@erols.com> wrote:
I was never spanked while growing up, and as a teenager I never
smoked, drank, used drugs, stayed out past curfew, talked back to my
parents, skipped school, etc. Why don't people focus on cases like
mine, and study what went *right* with kids that weren't spanked?
---Linda
LaVonne Carlson
Wanda Lewis wrote:
>
> There are times when a kid needs a hard spanking. A sore bottom
> does wonders for the memory.
Yes, Wanda, I couldn't agree more. Memories of the anger, hurt, fear,
and betrayal can last a lifetime. It's not easy to forget that the
people whom you love unconditionally, whom you depend on for your very
survival, who are sometimes twice your size, have raised their hand,
have hit, and have hurt your small body.
These are not memories that are easy to erase.
LaVonne
LaVonne Carlson
Denny wrote:
>
> In article <01bbff67$e5816f00$3c1760cf@agnesw>, "Robert W. Wozniak"
> <agn...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > Oh please... I don't think that a swat on the rear qualifies as "brutal
> > treatment"!
> >
> >
>
> But, wouldn't a hug in reward for good behavior be more effective than violence?
Research shows that positive parenting strategies are not only more
effective but do not carry the risk of potential long and short term
harm.
LaVonne
Jörgen carlsson
Are you nuts? They only remember the sore not the reason of it. As a
matter a fact, the deepest sore will always be on the mind.
Wanda Lewis <a...@aol.com> skrev i inlägg <32D60A...@aol.com>...
kbe...@icgroup.net
>Waylan <way...@erols.com> wrote:
Unfortunately, society focuses on the juvenile delinquents whose
parents never laid a hand on them, instead of situations like the
above. However, I was spanked as a child, and I didn't grow up to be a
model citizen. I made my mistakes and plenty of them. There are times
I probably should have been spanked and wasn't and other times I
shouldn't have been and was. Today's controversy is that parents
shouldn't hit their children at all because it's considered child
abuse. But then when the children start getting in trouble in their
teen years, the parents are blamed for not disciplining the child.
It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
Kathy
Zach
> > There are times when a kid needs a hard spanking. A sore bottom
> > does wonders for the memory.
>
> and betrayal can last a lifetime. It's not easy to forget that the
> people whom you love unconditionally, whom you depend on for your very
> survival, who are sometimes twice your size, have raised their hand,
> have hit, and have hurt your small body.
There's a damned textbook answer if I've ever seen one.
> These are not memories that are easy to erase.
I don't even remember the "standard" spanking. I remember being
slapped for no reason--- just because my mother felt like doing
it to vent her anger. Being humiliated in public. Often being in
tears by the time the drive to school was over--- and not remembering
what, if anything, I had done wrong. Later, in the depths of her
depression (and when we literally had lost almost everything of
material value because of it), being sent to counseling because
it was *I* who had something wrong with me (it was suppossed to be
counseling for both of us, but I only remember her showing up to
one session). Being verbally/mentally abused and slapped around
(I was getting too big to bend over a knee) so much that my
brain overloaded and I had a seizure because of it (something that
still amazes me).
But, I was never beaten and shoved around hard enough for her
to put my head through the sheetrock in the garage wall, nor was
I sexually abused as her father had done to her, so I guess there
was _some_ progress made. Too bad I was 18 and out of the house
before she got help for herself.
What is my point, you ask? I have no demons haunting me from
merely being spanked--- I laugh at that. It's all the other
sh*t and more that affected me. I think some (not all) of you
should ask yourselves if you are projecting other problems on
a memory of being slapped on the bottom because you stole Uncle
Bob's pocket knife. Or, if you are projecting such memories
because you, like so many people, won't take responsibility
for how you feel; instead, you blame it on something else.
Grow the hell up.
Zach
Pat Winstanley
In article <us029555-110...@ip81.san-ramon.ca.pub-ip.psi.net>,
Denny <us02...@mindspring.com> writes
>> Oh please... I don't think that a swat on the rear qualifies as "brutal
>> treatment"!
>>
>>
>
>But, wouldn't a hug in reward for good behavior be more effective than violence?
A lot more effective than a hug in reward for bad behaviour!
Pat
=====================================
Pierless Navigation, Wigan, UK
pee...@cix.co.uk
pee...@pierless.demon.co.uk
Pat Winstanley (2:250/107.99@fidonet)
=====================================
Turnpike evaluation. For Turnpike information, mailto:in...@turnpike.com
Lucius
On Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:00:15 GMT, kbe...@icgroup.net wrote:
>Wanda Lewis (a...@aol.com) wrote:
>>: There are times when a kid needs a hard spanking. A sore bottom
>>: does wonders for the memory.
>
>It's funny, when remembering back on my childhood, the most things I
>can remember are the things I got spanked for. I also remembe that I
>never did those particular things again. I personally feel that a
>well deserved spanking never hurt anyone. My mom and dad used
>spanking on me and my three older sisters. There are times I probably
>could have used it more! I have to agree with Wanda's statement
>though. If your bottom hurts for something you did wrong, you're not
>likely to repeat it.
>
>
Funny thing is, when I look back on my childhood, I remember being
spanked *twice*. Once when I was accused of setting fire to the bushes
in front of the house, (Fire Department saved the house, younger
brother actually did the deed), and the other time when I shoved my
mother hard enough to knock her to the ground. (She was going to step
on a squirt gun I had filled with decaying blood matter, and I was
spraying the neighbor kids with. She realized something was not right
when they were vomiting after being sprayed.) About five years later,
my younger brother set fire to the basement of our house. Maybe if he
had received the correct PUNISHMENT, it would not have happened. Let
me tell you, the first words out of my mouth to my mother were, "I did
NOT do this one either!" Of course I remembered what I was spanked
for, I was given 5, bare butt, with a belt, by my 13 year older
brother. (Which made him 22 at the time.) To this day, I feel that the
punishment was APPROPRIATE. I blamed my younger brother, and beat the
shit out of him, for my taking his spanking. I did not, and do not,
blame my older brother or my mother.
I am now 33, and have a 9 year old. He frequently receives a swat on
his clothed bum for innapropriate behaivor. Time out does not work,
even when I experimently extended it to a half hour. He is to
stubborn. Takes after his mother. She used to sit at the dining table
from 5pm til 10pm because her parents would say, "You are not getting
up from this table til that plate is clean". They would finally give
up at bedtime. Sending my boy to his room don't work, he just goes to
sleep, and then gets pissed that I wake him up to let him out.
Grounding dont work, he sits on the couch staring at me, (for days on
end), with a look of pure hatred on his face. And he does not modify
his behaivor. I tried the endurance routine, of holding his arms
straight out in front of him until he was sore, but I caught him
practicing in his room. He is stubborn. A swat on the butt has
demonstrated behaivoral changes in him. He stole some money from me
once. He was given 3, open hand, bare butt, swats for this. He has
NEVER tried that again. He had the problem of running out into the
street, like most kids. I tried explaining the safety rules, praising
him for looking first. I finally spanked him, then and there when he
did it. He looks now.
To all who love their "studies" and research papers, remember
Sturgeon's Law.... 99% of everything is crap....
And the statistics law: 5 out of 5 researchers want an answer, any
answer....
Sorry, sometimes the answer is just not in the data.
(Remember the Carnigie-Mellon report on cyberporn?)
Lucas
Tracy Hornschuch
On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, David & Linda Holthaus wrote:
> Waylan <way...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >I was never spanked while growing up and I believe I would have done
> >better in school, not started smoking at 15, and taken my parents more
> >seriously if I had occasionally been given a sore bottom.
>
> >I have dated women who have children and the better behaved ones
> >have a mom that will spank them if there is a need to modify their
> >behavior. The others have moms that will let them throw tantrums at
> >age seven and even 13. They demand all of the mothers attention when
> >they want something and will become obnoxious until they are given
> >their way.
>
> >I enjoy adult spanking with a female and particularly as part of
> >foreplay, but I was never spanked as a child.
>
> I was never spanked while growing up, and as a teenager I never
> smoked, drank, used drugs, stayed out past curfew, talked back to my
> parents, skipped school, etc. Why don't people focus on cases like
> mine, and study what went *right* with kids that weren't spanked?
>
> ---Linda
>
>
>
Thank-you Linda! A very good point. Please shake your parents' hands and
thank them for me. It is obvious they did do something *right*.
Tracy
school: bro...@engr.orst.edu work: horns...@cof.orst.edu
Computer Science Major College of Forestry at OSU
Oregon State University http://www.cof.orst.edu
http://www.engr.orst.edu/~browntr
Tammy
David & Linda Holthaus <holt...@aonline.com> wrote in article
<5b8mio$1...@anchor.aonline.com>...
<snip>
> >I enjoy adult spanking with a female and particularly as part of
> >foreplay, but I was never spanked as a child.
>
> I was never spanked while growing up, and as a teenager I never
> smoked, drank, used drugs, stayed out past curfew, talked back to my
> parents, skipped school, etc. Why don't people focus on cases like
> mine, and study what went *right* with kids that weren't spanked?
>
> ---Linda
>
>
Alot of us do acknowledge that children who were never spanked turned out
just fine, all we ask is that the anti-spankers acknowledge the same for
children who were spanked. And the fact that it works the other way also,
that some who were never spanked as well as those who were could very
likely end up obnoxius jerks or cirminals as well, and that there are other
contributing factors that determine what a child grows up to be. Making a
broad based assertion like "all children benifit spankings, or no
child benifit from spankings" is as erroneous as saying "all children
benift from [ insert any discipline] or no children benifit from [insert
any discipline]"
--
Tammy
"Resistance is futile....."
Lt. Commander Data
First Contact
dm...@lehigh.edu
In article <5b8mio$1...@anchor.aonline.com>, holt...@aonline.com (David & Linda
Holthaus) writes:
>
>I was never spanked while growing up, and as a teenager I never
>smoked, drank, used drugs, stayed out past curfew, talked back to my
>parents, skipped school, etc. Why don't people focus on cases like
>mine, and study what went *right* with kids that weren't spanked?
>
>---Linda
>
used drugs, stayed out past curfew, talked back to my parents, or skipped
school. Perhaps we could also include cases like mine in your study. What
went *right* with kids that WERE spanked?
Debbie Perkins Lehigh University
"A Thousand Miles From Nowhere"
Tammy
kbe...@icgroup.net wrote in article <5bb1ea$l...@news.icgroup.net>...
>
> Unfortunately, society focuses on the juvenile delinquents whose
> parents never laid a hand on them, instead of situations like the
> above. However, I was spanked as a child, and I didn't grow up to be a
> model citizen. I made my mistakes and plenty of them. There are times
> I probably should have been spanked and wasn't and other times I
> shouldn't have been and was. Today's controversy is that parents
> shouldn't hit their children at all because it's considered child
> abuse. But then when the children start getting in trouble in their
> teen years, the parents are blamed for not disciplining the child.
> It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.
>
>
> Kathy
The fact is what people need is education, it isn't spanking or not
spanking that makes or breaks all children it could be a number of
different combination of experiences that a child has until they reach
adulthood that make up the sum of that person. If parents are consistant,
not abusive and loving and fair using spanking ( openhanded swats on a
fully clothed butt) as only the last resort or for the most serious or
offense's, as well as other discipline and parenting techniques they can
avoid the *damned if you do and damned if you don't* merry go round.
Conan
Ham...@krptn.com wrote:
>
> In article <32d1e457....@news1.ns.sympatico.ca>,
> mhil...@sympatico.ca (MARSHALL HILLYER) wrote:
>
> >
> > My children will be rased having respect for their elders, the law,
> > and humankind. My kids, WON'T be doing gang-bangs, drive by
> > shootings, and going on murderours sprees.
> >
>
> Most kids who do this type of thing have been spanked routinely
> upbringing of young thugs is corporal punishment.
>
SO so true, Corporal Punishment teaches a child that getting caught is
worse than the offense!
--
A human being is a part of the whole called by us "Universe", a part
limited in time and space.... Our task must be to free ourselves by
widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and
the whole (of) nature in it's beauty.
~ Albert Einstein
You are at once a beating heart and a single heartbeat in the body of
humanity.
Daniel J. Myers
In article <Pine.HPP.3.95.97011...@ia.ENGR.ORST.EDU>,
bro...@ENGR.ORST.EDU says...
>On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, David & Linda Holthaus wrote:
>> Waylan <way...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I was never spanked while growing up and I believe I would have done
>> >better in school, not started smoking at 15, and taken my parents more
>> >seriously if I had occasionally been given a sore bottom.
>>
>> >I have dated women who have children and the better behaved ones
>> >have a mom that will spank them if there is a need to modify their
>> >behavior. The others have moms that will let them throw tantrums at
>> >age seven and even 13. They demand all of the mothers attention when
>> >they want something and will become obnoxious until they are given
>> >their way.
>>
>> >I enjoy adult spanking with a female and particularly as part of
>> >foreplay, but I was never spanked as a child.
>>
>> I was never spanked while growing up, and as a teenager I never
>> smoked, drank, used drugs, stayed out past curfew, talked back to my
>> parents, skipped school, etc. Why don't people focus on cases like
>> mine, and study what went *right* with kids that weren't spanked?
>>
>> ---Linda
>>
>>
>>
>Thank-you Linda! A very good point. Please shake your parents' hands and
>thank them for me. It is obvious they did do something *right*.
>
> Tracy
>
> school: bro...@engr.orst.edu work: horns...@cof.orst.edu
> Computer Science Major College of Forestry at OSU
> Oregon State University http://www.cof.orst.edu
> http://www.engr.orst.edu/~browntr
>
There are two huge problems in all these opinions about spanking I've seen
here. The first is that most people seems to be ignoring the complexity of
discipline and how it affect behavior. Spanking is only one (small in some
cases, large in others) factor that plays into a childs actual behavior. There
are many other aspects of the kid's environments and parents which can make
much more of a difference than some instance of spanking.
The second problem is that eveyone seems to think that whatever happened to
them as a child and the outcomes for them are applicable to everyone else. A
paraphrase of these arguments is something like -- I got spanked when I was a
kid and I turned out alright, therefore, it's a good thing to spank kids. This
sort of bias, where we think whatever happens to us and whatever judgements we
make would work for other people is a well known human shortcoming.
Try understanding someone else's circumstances and perspective for once.
Coupled with an appreciation for the complexity of everyone's situation, we
might actually be able to make some progress instead of simply reiterating that
everyone ought to do it my way.
Of course, it's naturally desirable to try to simplify a situation, but
over-doing it leads to mindless credos passed from generation to generation,
regardless of whether they are the most effective, effective at all or even
humane.
Carl Cavendish-Davies
djm...@facstaff.wisc.edu (Daniel J. Myers) wrote:
>>It's funny, when remembering back on my childhood, the most things I
>>can remember are the things I got spanked for. I also remembe that I
>>never did those particular things again. I personally feel that a
>>well deserved spanking never hurt anyone. My mom and dad used
>>spanking on me and my three older sisters. There are times I probably
>>could have used it more! I have to agree with Wanda's statement
>>though. If your bottom hurts for something you did wrong, you're not
>>likely to repeat it.
>I think most people posting in this thread are missing a huge part of this
>whole problem. That is controlling behavior versus internalization. Even if
>it is the case that "if your bottom hurts, you're not likely to repeat it"
>(which is a highly dubious claim -- you might be less likely to get caught
>though), preventing a child from misbehaving out of fear accomplishes very
>little indeed. What children need is to be taught responsibility for their
>actions, not to have someone standing over them controlling their behavior with
>a big stick. What happens when the person with the big stick isn't standing
>there anymore? The child has only learn that they will get punished if they
>get caught doing something; they haven't learned why it's wrong, any genaral
>principles for differentiating right from wrong, or why it is important to
>adjudicate between proper and improper behavior. This sort of punishment dooms
>people to get sytuck in a very early phase of moral reasoning which is based
>completely on hedonism -- if it hurts don't do it, if it doesn't hurt, do it.
>Surely we can teach children to be a little more discerning than this -- after
>all, this is what they use to train rats in laboratories. We can do better.
>Dan
I think you have vastly oversimplified the matter. After reading a
good number of the articles posted it appears to me that most pro
spankers are not proposing spanking as the only method of behavioural
modification. From my experience as a parent I have seen that each
child is different and correspondingly different methods are required.
Sometimes the only way to make your children listen is to inflict pain
of some sort. A smart slap on the bottom is a good attention getter
when other methods are not working.
Daniel J. Myers
David & Linda Holthaus
djm...@facstaff.wisc.edu (Daniel J. Myers) wrote:
>There are two huge problems in all these opinions about spanking I've seen
>here. The first is that most people seems to be ignoring the complexity of
>discipline and how it affect behavior. Spanking is only one (small in some
>cases, large in others) factor that plays into a childs actual behavior. There
>are many other aspects of the kid's environments and parents which can make
>much more of a difference than some instance of spanking.
That is what I was trying to say in my post. The person I responded to
seemed to be saying that kids needed to be spanked. I was using my
case as a 'not neccisarily' example.
>The second problem is that eveyone seems to think that whatever happened to
>them as a child and the outcomes for them are applicable to everyone else. A
>paraphrase of these arguments is something like -- I got spanked when I was a
>kid and I turned out alright, therefore, it's a good thing to spank kids. This
>sort of bias, where we think whatever happens to us and whatever judgements we
>make would work for other people is a well known human shortcoming.
I'm going to say something I should have said in my original post:
I didn't get spanked as a kid, I turned out alright, therefore people
who are unsure of what to do should look at cases like mine, as one
of many ways to get ideas.
>Try understanding someone else's circumstances and perspective for once.
>Coupled with an appreciation for the complexity of everyone's situation, we
>might actually be able to make some progress instead of simply reiterating that
>everyone ought to do it my way.
>Of course, it's naturally desirable to try to simplify a situation, but
>over-doing it leads to mindless credos passed from generation to generation,
>regardless of whether they are the most effective, effective at all or even
>humane.
Sorry I wasn't clear about my point in my original post.
Cheers,
---Linda
Tammy
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote in article
<5bgmdp$p...@carbon.cudenver.edu>...
> Daniel J. Myers (djm...@facstaff.wisc.edu) wrote:
>
> "Remember this adage, 'When the cat is away, the mice will play'? Well,
> when adult controllers turn their backs, [punitively disciplined]
> youngsters usually show little self-control. Sometimes they rebelliously
> do exactly what the adult authority has previously prohibited them from
> doing.
This could be said of any discipline that the child finds unpleasent.
Beleive it or not there are worse things than a spanking to some children
and they can get very creative in attemps to not be caught even if the
consesquence is not a spanking.
>Remember too what they used to say about 'the preachers's kids':
> obedient, submissive, goody-goody when young, often they turn into rebels
> and troublemakers during adolescence.
This is no more true than saying *all* children of abuse are abusive or
that all children of alcholics, obese, drug addicted, mentaly ill or
violent murders will end up like their parents. While some *may* have a
tendency does not mean that it is their fate.
>Children who meekly submit to
> parental authority often turn into rebellious teenage delinquents later,
> reacting aggressively to _all_ adult authority, incapable of any
> self-control or self-discipline.
This could also be said of children who grow up in a houshold where there
is no discipline at all where they are neglected and ignored allowed to do
as the please.
> however, are those who have always
> been given considerable personal freedom. Why? Because they have been
> allowed the chance to make many of their own choices and decisions.
> Children will learn to control or limit behavior that is disturbing to
> adults only if those adults have shown a similar consideration for them;
> children will use self control to follow the rules when they have been
> given the chance to joing with adults in deciding what those rules should
> be... While it is true that obedient, fearful, submissive, and
subservient
> kids are sometimes produced by adult-imposed discipline, truly
> _self_-disciplined youngsters are not."
>
> : What happens when the person with the big stick isn't standing
> : there anymore? The child has only learn that they will get punished if
they
> : get caught doing something; they haven't learned why it's wrong, any
genaral
> : principles for differentiating right from wrong, or why it is important
to
> : adjudicate between proper and improper behavior.
Again this could be said about any negative consequence that could be
imposed on a child.
>
> Baldwin (1948) and Maccoby and Martin (1983) found that children
> of authoritarian parents tend to lack social competence with peers --
they
> tend to withdraw, to not take social initiative, to lack spontaneity and
> to show lesser evidence of "conscience."
Not all parents who spank are "authoritarian", many are loving and fair
minded people who use it only in the most extreme cases and practice a
large range of postitive parenting skills. Your protrait is one
dimensional as is most of your reasoning.
>
> : This sort of punishment dooms
> : people to get stuck in a very early phase of moral reasoning which is
based
> : completely on hedonism -- if it hurts don't do it, if it doesn't hurt,
do it.
>
> Lippitt and White (1943) found that children in a boy's club that
> had controlling, authoritarian leaders consistently showed more hostile,
> aggressive, and disruptive behavior when the leader left the room than
did
> children in another club that had noncontrolling, democratic leaders
We are talking about loving parents here not "authoritariian" boy scout
leaders. Parents who ( we hope) love and have a lifetime vested interest
in the children that they care for. Not some one who in a non-paretnal role
who is only interested in wimnning a game or having the largest, best or
what ever goal.
Your right about one thing though my family is not a democracy, We the
adults make the decisions. Why because we have life experience that our
children do not and while we may include them in the decisions and we may
give them more responsiblity in these matters as they mature. And it our
responsiblity to be fair and loving in our decisions.
>
> : Surely we can teach children to be a little more discerning than this
-- after
> : all, this is what they use to train rats in laboratories. We can do
better.
>
again this is typical type casting most parents who spank do not fall into
this mold and Chris' constant attempt to push us into it is what ultimately
leads into a flaming confrontation which is what I believe is the goal
here.
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Daniel J. Myers (djm...@facstaff.wisc.edu) wrote:
: I think most people posting in this thread are missing a huge part of this
: whole problem. That is controlling behavior versus internalization. Even if
: it is the case that "if your bottom hurts, you're not likely to repeat it"
: (which is a highly dubious claim -- you might be less likely to get caught
: though), preventing a child from misbehaving out of fear accomplishes very
: little indeed.
It makes life easier for the parent in the short run. But it
definitely does not benefit the child at all. Parents who force their
child to behave through fear are not training a self-disciplined,
empathetic, future citizen. Such children are being trained to base their
behavior on whether or not they will be punished for it rather than on how
it affects others.
: What children need is to be taught responsibility for their
: actions, not to have someone standing over them controlling their behavior
: with a big stick.
The key difference is, where is the locus of control? Is the
locus of control internal (self-discipline)? Or is the locus of control
external, dependent upon the presence of authority figures and the threat
of punishment.
In his excellent book, "Discipline That Works," Dr. Thomas Gordon
(1989, p. 8) writes:
"Remember this adage, 'When the cat is away, the mice will play'? Well,
when adult controllers turn their backs, [punitively disciplined]
youngsters usually show little self-control. Sometimes they rebelliously
do exactly what the adult authority has previously prohibited them from
doing. Remember too what they used to say about 'the preachers's kids':
obedient, submissive, goody-goody when young, often they turn into rebels
and troublemakers during adolescence. Children who meekly submit to
parental authority often turn into rebellious teenage delinquents later,
reacting aggressively to _all_ adult authority, incapable of any
self-control or self-discipline.
"_Self_-disciplined youngsters, however, are those who have always
been given considerable personal freedom. Why? Because they have been
allowed the chance to make many of their own choices and decisions.
Children will learn to control or limit behavior that is disturbing to
adults only if those adults have shown a similar consideration for them;
children will use self control to follow the rules when they have been
given the chance to joing with adults in deciding what those rules should
be... While it is true that obedient, fearful, submissive, and subservient
kids are sometimes produced by adult-imposed discipline, truly
_self_-disciplined youngsters are not."
: What happens when the person with the big stick isn't standing
: there anymore? The child has only learn that they will get punished if they
: get caught doing something; they haven't learned why it's wrong, any genaral
: principles for differentiating right from wrong, or why it is important to
: adjudicate between proper and improper behavior.
Baldwin (1948) and Maccoby and Martin (1983) found that children
of authoritarian parents tend to lack social competence with peers -- they
tend to withdraw, to not take social initiative, to lack spontaneity and
to show lesser evidence of "conscience."
: This sort of punishment dooms
: people to get stuck in a very early phase of moral reasoning which is based
: completely on hedonism -- if it hurts don't do it, if it doesn't hurt, do it.
Lippitt and White (1943) found that children in a boy's club that
had controlling, authoritarian leaders consistently showed more hostile,
aggressive, and disruptive behavior when the leader left the room than did
children in another club that had noncontrolling, democratic leaders. The
latter youngsters were much more apt to continue doing the tasks or
activities initiated before the leader left the room. The youngsters with
controlling, authoritarian leaders, on the other hand, stopped working at
their activities as soon as their adult leaders left the room, and they
promptly engaged in previously prohibited disruptive and aggressive
behaviors.
: Surely we can teach children to be a little more discerning than this -- after
: all, this is what they use to train rats in laboratories. We can do better.
Yes. We certainly can.
: Dan
Chris
REFERENCES
Baldwin, A. 1948. "Socialization and the Parent-Child Relationship."
_Child Development, 19.
Gordon, T. 1989. _Discipline That Works: Promoting Self-Discipline in
Children_. New York: Penguin.
Lippitt, R. and White, R. 1943. "The 'Social Climate' of Children's
Groups." In Barker, Kevnin & Wright (eds.), _Child Behavior and
Development_. New York: McGraw Hill.
Maccoby, E. and Martin, J. 1983. "Socialization in the context of the
Family." Chapter 1 in P. Mussen (ed.), _Handbook of Child Psychology_,
Vol. IV. New York: Wiley.
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Zach (za...@lsil.com) wrote:
[snip]
: I don't even remember the "standard" spanking. I remember being
: slapped for no reason--- just because my mother felt like doing
: it to vent her anger.
Yes. And as long as "spanking" children remains legal and
socially acceptable, thousands of parents will daily use "discipline" as
an excuse for venting anger on their helpless children. Thank you for
making this point.
: Being humiliated in public.
Spanking can wreck a child's self-esteem. This is another good
reason never to do it, in public or elsewhere.
: Often being in
: tears by the time the drive to school was over--- and not remembering
: what, if anything, I had done wrong.
If your mother was just lashing out because she was depressed or
venting her anger, then you wouldn't have ever been able to figure out
what it was that *you* had done since *you* weren't the real cause of her
violent behavior. Yet because her abusive behavior towards you could be
rationalized as "spanking" and "discipline" she had a legal right to
physically take out her frustrations by hitting you; and you had no
alternative except to devote your childhood to coping with and surviving
her assaults. The next generation of children deserves better.
: Later, in the depths of her
: depression (and when we literally had lost almost everything of
: material value because of it), being sent to counseling because
: it was *I* who had something wrong with me (it was suppossed to be
: counseling for both of us, but I only remember her showing up to
: one session).
Because we call the milder forms of parental violence against
children "spanking" and treat it as if it is harmless and beneficial for
the child it was easy for your mother to treat you in this abusive manner
for years on end while rationalizing that it was you, not her, who had the
problem. Once "spanking" has been socially recognized as a form of
domestic violence it will be a whole lot harder for perpetrators to engage
in the sort of denial your mother exhibited. This will come far too late
to help you, of course, but it will definitely benefit future children who
might otherwise grow up suffering the sorts of violent, degrading
treatment which you endured.
: Being verbally/mentally abused and slapped around
: (I was getting too big to bend over a knee) so much that my
: brain overloaded and I had a seizure because of it (something that
: still amazes me).
I am not surprised. I have heard of other cases of people who
exhibited seizures as a result of unintegratable emotional overload as
well. Your mother needed help. And the first step towards her getting
help would have been getting her to admit that *she* owned the problem,
not you. Too bad that the cultural/legal acceptance of "spanking" made it
possible for her to act as if *you* were *causing* her to hit you. She
could rationalize that she was "disciplining" you for your own good, when
in fact she was hitting you purely to meet her own needs, not yours.
: But, I was never beaten and shoved around hard enough for her
: to put my head through the sheetrock in the garage wall, nor was
: I sexually abused as her father had done to her, so I guess there
: was _some_ progress made.
^^^^^^^^
Those of us who are working to abolish all physical punishment of
children see ourselves as facilitating the further development of this
kind of "progress" on a societal scale.
: Too bad I was 18 and out of the house
: before she got help for herself.
I am so sorry this happened to you.
Perhaps your reaching the legal age of majority and leaving the
home precipitated the crisis which drove her into therapy? She could no
longer use her abuse of you as an emotional pressure release valve and
therefore sought help.
: What is my point, you ask? I have no demons haunting me from
: merely being spanked--- I laugh at that.
Laughter about childhood hurts and humiliations *can* in some
cases be indicative of denial. You seem confident that you have clearly
separated out what hurt you emotionally from what didn't, and perhaps you
have. But personally, I am not so certain that you have.
Your mother denied she had a problem for years and years. You may
now be following in her footsteps: deny that you have a problem while
dumping your anger on someone else and identifying *them*, not you, as the
person with the problem. I humbly urge you to seriously think this over
before flaming me.
: It's all the other
: sh*t and more that affected me. I think some (not all) of you
: should ask yourselves if you are projecting other problems on
: a memory of being slapped on the bottom because you stole Uncle
: Bob's pocket knife.
You seem quite certain of what it was which harmed *you*. Perhaps
you can begin to accept that others of us are similarly certain about what
childhood experiences harmed *us*.
: Or, if you are projecting such memories
: because you, like so many people, won't take responsibility
: for how you feel; instead, you blame it on something else.
If people who believe they were harmed by spanking are mistaken,
how do you account for the research which strongly suggests that spanking
is indeed linked to a plethora of long- and not-so-long-term negative
effects (Gelles & Straus, 1990)?
As for "blaming," Zack, you appear to be doing a fair amount of it
yourself. I wonder if you are not doing precisely what you fault others
for doing: not taking responsibility for how you feel, and blaming it on
others. I have a strong hunch that you actually do have unresolved
emotional issues relating to your childhood spankings, and that this is
the source of the rage you feel when you read of other people who complain
that spankings harmed them.
Raging at antispankers on the net is surely much easier and less
painful than reconnecting that rage to one's own mother.
: Grow the hell up.
I continue to sense some rather inappropriate anger here. It
looks to me as if you are now repeating the same pattern your mother
exhibited: dumping anger inappropriately on others rather than facing and
coping with its true sources and causes. Please also consider the
possibility that one source/cause of this anger you are venting on
antispankers today involves unresolved issues related, at least in part,
to your childhood spankings.
Chris, who thinks that people who suffer from long-term negative effects
as a result of domestic violence directed against themselves in childhood
do not deserve to be ridiculed and exhorted to "grow the hell up" any
more than people with stunted limbs due to prenatal exposure to
thalidomide deserve to be exhorted to "grow the hell out."
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Carl Cavendish-Davies (carl.caven...@mail.liberty.co.za) wrote:
: I think you have vastly oversimplified the matter. After reading a
: good number of the articles posted it appears to me that most pro
: spankers are not proposing spanking as the only method of behavioural
: modification.
Whether an authoritarian parent is using spanking, or some other
type of coercive punishment, Dan's points remain valid. Dan was
critiquing authoritarian, punitive parenting in general, not just
spanking.
: From my experience as a parent I have seen that each
: child is different and correspondingly different methods are required.
: Sometimes the only way to make your children listen is to inflict pain
: of some sort.
Inflicting pain is never "the only way to make your children
listen." There are always alternatives to hitting your child. If one
approach doesn't work, try another until you find one that does. A
treasure-trove of relevant tips may be found in Adele Faber and Elaine
Mazlish's "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen And Listen So Kids Will Talk."
On the other hand, if one has already decided in advance that
hitting is sometimes "the only way," one will undoubtedly encounter
repeated instances in which one "has" to do it.
Chris
Mike Duvos
Tammy (ta...@quancon.com) wrote:
: Not all parents who spank are "authoritarian", many are loving and fair
: minded people who use it only in the most extreme cases and practice a
: large range of postitive parenting skills. Your protrait is one
: dimensional as is most of your reasoning.
Not all wife-slapping husbands are "authoritarian", many are loving
and fair minded (even Biblical) people who use this important form
of family discipline in only the most extreme cases, and practice
a wide range of other positive methods of solving family problems.
Not all wives who have "a sore face" go on to have emotional problems
or to need psychiatric care, and in any case, loving application
of such discipline is far better than homes where the wife is
just allowed to do whatever she wants and max out the credit cards.
People who disagree with this are engaging in one-dimensional
reasoning. Just ask OJ Simpson!
--
Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $
m...@netcom.com $ via Finger. $
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Tammy (ta...@quancon.com) wrote:
: Chris (cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu) wrote:
: > [a quotation from Dr. Thomas Gordon]
: > "Remember this adage, 'When the cat is away, the mice will play'? Well,
: > when adult controllers turn their backs, [punitively disciplined]
: > youngsters usually show little self-control. Sometimes they rebelliously
: > do exactly what the adult authority has previously prohibited them from
: > doing.
: This could be said of any discipline that the child finds unpleasent.
Thanks for making this point, Tammy. This is a major argument in
favor of avoiding punishment in general as a discipline technique.
: Beleive it or not there are worse things than a spanking to some children
: and they can get very creative in attemps to not be caught even if the
: consesquence is not a spanking.
Thanks again, Tammy, for making an important point. What you
describe above is an accurate picture of how children *really* react to
punitive control (as opposed to authoritarian myths about how well
punishment supposedly "works.").
Those interested in learning more about nonpunitive discipline are
urged to read "Discipline That Works" by Dr. Thomas Gordon.
Chris, who just *loves* it when prospankers make his points for him. :-)
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Mike Duvos (m...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Tammy (ta...@quancon.com) wrote:
: : Not all parents who spank are "authoritarian", many are loving and fair
: : minded people who use it only in the most extreme cases and practice a
: : large range of postitive parenting skills. Your protrait is one
: : dimensional as is most of your reasoning.
: Not all wife-slapping husbands are "authoritarian", many are loving
: and fair minded (even Biblical) people who use this important form
: of family discipline in only the most extreme cases, and practice
: a wide range of other positive methods of solving family problems.
In other words, arguments in favor of spanking don't "travel
well." As soon as all the mealy-mouthed justifications for hitting
children are applied to *any* other class of persons, their offensiveness
and absurdity become obvious.
We live in a society in which even a single slap to an adult
constitutes abuse. Yet we have a less-stringent standard with regard to
children, who are the most dependent, emotionally-vulnerable, easily
traumatized members of society. This does not add up.
Chris
Tammy
In a effort to keep cross posting to a minimum, I will only reply to this
thread on alt.parenting.spanking. I am posting this so that those who are
interested in this thread and it's replies can go there and read them and
for those not interested this is my last post to the other ng's.
Sorry for the inconvience and
Thanks
Tammy
Mike Duvos <m...@netcom.com> wrote in article <mpdE40...@netcom.com>...
> Tammy (ta...@quancon.com) wrote:
> <snip>
Tammy
Another prime example of attempting to make spanking something it is not,
face slappping by a mentally ill parent who is simply lashing out, most
times due to pain felt from their own past abuse, is not discipline and it
is not spanking. And no matter how many times say it is won't make it so.
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote in article
<5bgjuf$p...@carbon.cudenver.edu>...
> Zach (za...@lsil.com) wrote:
> [snip]
> : I don't even remember the "standard" spanking. I remember being
> : slapped for no reason--- just because my mother felt like doing
> : it to vent her anger.
>
> Yes. And as long as "spanking" children remains legal and
> socially acceptable, thousands of parents will daily use "discipline" as
> an excuse for venting anger on their helpless children. Thank you for
> making this point.
No we are talking about being slapped in the face for little or no reason.
This is neither discipline nor spanking.
>
> : Being humiliated in public.
>
> Spanking can wreck a child's self-esteem. This is another good
> reason never to do it, in public or elsewhere.
Parents who spank are no more guilty of this than parents who discipline in
other ways if it is done in front of anyone other than in private between
the parent(s) and the child.
><snip>
>
> Raging at antispankers on the net is surely much easier and less
> painful than reconnecting that rage to one's own mother.
I guess this could be said about those anti-spankers, raging at spankers on
the net is surely much easier and less painful than reconnecting that rage
to one's own mother.
>
> : Grow the hell up.
>
> I continue to sense some rather inappropriate anger here. It
> looks to me as if you are now repeating the same pattern your mother
> exhibited: dumping anger inappropriately on others rather than facing and
> coping with its true sources and causes. Please also consider the
> possibility that one source/cause of this anger you are venting on
> antispankers today involves unresolved issues related, at least in part,
> to your childhood spankings.
Again he was not spanked as a child what he was, was physically and
mentally abused by a mentally unstable mother who was the result of the
same. Regardless of *your* distrorted perspective spanking may be alot of
things but it is not face slapping nor not many of the things you'd like to
pertend it to be.
Don Tyler
Spanking kids.
Some kids are docile. Some are rambunctious. Some need more
disciplining, some less. I was rarely spanked as a kid. I remember,
though the threat of Dad's Belt. I remember him patiently and
carefully explaining why he was using it, and that helped. But he was
wrong. The punishment was inappropriate to the circumstance, and was
'way too late to be effective. ("Wait 'til your father gets
home"--wrong!)
I never thought I'd ever spank my kids, but that lasted almost into
the firstborn's second year. In any punishment, the important thing is
not the severity as much as the swiftness, sureness, and the clear
connection between the punishment and the crime.
Once you cross that line, though, look out. I've probably spanked my
kids too often, and I =know= I've done it too hard. (When that little
hand gets thrust in the way, or you miss the part God padded so well,
you can really do injury without intent.) I've done it when it was
uncalled for. I've sworn up one side and down the other that I'll
never strike a kid again, but then there will come a point....
Whenever I hear someone say, "My father never struck me," I can only
think, you weren't a member of MY family line, I can tell that! Sigh!
There is no easy, or right answer.
Once they're beyond a certain age, however, if the lesson of AUTHORITY
which spanking teaches is no longer possible with that technique. As
with an ultrabratty young relative we had with us for several months
last year: I would be back in her face just as much as she'd be in
mine, and she'd try to pull what she pulled on her "violence"-fearing
mother: "I don't need this," she'd say. No, I'd reply, what you needed
was a good spanking when you were a kid, but it's too late for that
now, that's why we have to use words, and less physical restraint.
(Actually, she and I did come to clinches now and then, and she even
tried to claim I'd hit her, but I never did. =I= got bruised and
scarred, though.)
Like capital punishment, IN THEORY, there's justice in spanking, but
IN PRACTICE, it's usually administered too precipitously. Avoid it if
possible. Find alternatives, if possible. But don't rule it out.
Siiiiggghhhh. Parenting is no picnic. Mine are 15, 11, and 11.
:Don Tyler, Wash.Co., Okla.
LaVonne Carlson
Tammy wrote:
>
> Another prime example of attempting to make spanking something it is not,
> face slappping by a mentally ill parent who is simply lashing out, most
> times due to pain felt from their own past abuse, is not discipline and it
> is not spanking. And no matter how many times say it is won't make it so.
Like Chris said in a previous post
"people who claim that spankings never did them
> any harm are telling it like it is, and their opinions constitute
> "real-life" evidence more telling than any number of huge, representative,
> population studies published in journals. On the other hand, people who
> claim that spankings *did* harm them are just a bunch of immature whiney
> liberals who need to grow up, get a life, and take responsibility for what
> pathetic excuses for human beings they really are. Of course the fact
> that they grew up in a home in which their parents physically assaulted
> them on repeated occasions *couldn't* have any connection to why they are
> now unhappy, troubled adults..."
Here was an individual who had the courage to post that yes, spankings
were indeed painful and harmful personally, but you felt the need to
discount the post on the grounds that what he experienced wasn't a
spanking. You illustrated Chris' point quickly and well.
LaVonne
Zach
> : Not all parents who spank are "authoritarian", many are loving and fair
> : minded people who use it only in the most extreme cases and practice a
> : large range of postitive parenting skills. Your protrait is one
> : dimensional as is most of your reasoning.
>
> Not all wife-slapping husbands are "authoritarian", many are loving
> and fair minded (even Biblical) people who use this important form
> of family discipline in only the most extreme cases, and practice
> a wide range of other positive methods of solving family problems.
Demonstrate how spousal abuse equates with using spanking as a
disciplinary action towards children. While amusing, your reasoning
is fallacious.
The problem I've seen here (for the past few years I've been keeping
an eye on this debate) is that both sides are arguing two different
issues; thus, no progress is really made.
Zach
LaVonne Carlson
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote:
>
> Tammy (ta...@quancon.com) wrote:
> : Chris (cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu) wrote:
> : > [a quotation from Dr. Thomas Gordon]
> : > when adult controllers turn their backs, [punitively disciplined]
> : > youngsters usually show little self-control. Sometimes they rebelliously
> : > do exactly what the adult authority has previously prohibited them from
> : > doing.
>
>
> Thanks for making this point, Tammy. This is a major argument in
> favor of avoiding punishment in general as a discipline technique.
I am glad Tammy posted this. Having argued against authoritarian
parenting and punitive discipline as a method of instilling
self-control (actually, the opposite generally occurs) I was delighted
to see this quote.
> : Beleive it or not there are worse things than a spanking to some children
> : and they can get very creative in attemps to not be caught even if the
> : consesquence is not a spanking.
Spanking is part of authoritarian parenting (adult controllers) and is
definitely punitive discipline. This type of parenting does indeed,
as Gordon stated and Tammy quoted, contribute to children with
diminished self-control.
LaVonne
LaVonne Carlson
Sure it does, Chris. Children are dependent, vulnerable, and easily
tramatized -- and most importantly -- chronologically children.
Therefore we hit them. We can do to them what we can do to no other
member of society, regardless of cognitive functioning, independent
status, or vulnerability. We do this because they are different from
adults -- ***they are younger***. Hopefully we now all understand.
LaVonne
Macrummet Stockholms UB
Like capital punishment, IN THEORY, there's justice in spanking, but
> IN PRACTICE, it's usually administered too precipitously. Avoid it if
> possible. Find alternatives, if possible. But don't rule it out.
>
> Siiiiggghhhh. Parenting is no picnic. Mine are 15, 11, and 11.
As with capital punishment, there is no justice, only unfair
used force, in spanking.
Pat Winstanley
In article <5bgmuh$p...@carbon.cudenver.edu>, cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
writes
>: From my experience as a parent I have seen that each
>: child is different and correspondingly different methods are required.
>: Sometimes the only way to make your children listen is to inflict pain
>: of some sort.
>
> Inflicting pain is never "the only way to make your children
>listen."
Oh yes it is... sometimes, be it physical or emotional pain.
My son (12) has both a physical (awkward teeth in mouth) and a 'brain'
speech impediment. He has had to be taught to *listen* to other people's
comments and take them on board. Of *course* it is embarrassing, however
subtle one tries to be, but the difference it makes in his relationship
with his peer groups is worth it to him.
Now he (unsolicited) says "Thanks Mum, for telling me the right way to
do it" when I (quietly) correct his verbal pronunciation/grammar. (His
written work is fine).
My elder son (almost 14) on the other hand is well into the local idiom
which refuses to recognise the word 'borrow':
Him: I'll lend it off my friend
Me: Borrow it
Him: No... he's lending it to me
Me: Yes, he's lending it to you and you are borrowing it from him
Him: No, I'm lending it off him
Me: You're *borrowing* it *from* him
Him: I'm off now, Mum, see you later when I've lent this from him!
Aaaaargh!
The worst of it is, he does this on purpose! HELP!!!! ;-))
Pat
=====================================
Pierless Navigation, Wigan, UK
pee...@cix.co.uk
pee...@pierless.demon.co.uk
Pat Winstanley (2:250/107.99@fidonet)
=====================================
Turnpike evaluation. For information, see http://www.turnpike.com/
brys...@aol.com
Arguaments about abuse, self esteem and all that aside, one of my main
reasons to not spank is simply because I don't believe that it works. I
have never seen a child not repeat a certain behaviour because of fear of
a spanking (beating maybe, but I don't think that anyone condones
that!!!!), in fact I remember friends that would weigh out their options.
They knew that they would be spanked, but decided that it (whatever 'it'
was) was worth it!! I got spanked exactly 3 times in my life and I
remember each time. Each time was deserved by the way!!! I think perhaps
my mother took the perfect middle route. The spankings were only for the
ultimate 'bad behaviour'! Since I spend the majority of my time trying to
persuade my 23 month old son that hitting is not acceptable, I really
don't think that my spanking him would set a good example - after all, in
his eyes, Mummy can behave pretty badly too!!!
Bridget Bryson - first time posting on a bulletin board! Hope I did
ok.....
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Zach (za...@lsil.com) wrote:
: Demonstrate how spousal abuse equates with using spanking as a
: disciplinary action towards children. While amusing, your reasoning
: is fallacious.
Physical punishment of children, and spousal abuse are interlinked
issues. The more often a child is physically punished, the higher the
statistical likelihood that they will physically abuse their spouse later
in life (Straus, 1991).
Chris
REFERENCE
Straus, M.A. 1991. "Discipline and Deviance: Physical Punishment of
Children and Violence and Other Crime in Adulthood." _Social Problems_
38(2):133-155
Iggy Drougge
Zach (za...@lsil.com) wrote:
: > : Not all parents who spank are "authoritarian", many are loving and fair
: > : minded people who use it only in the most extreme cases and practice a
: > : large range of postitive parenting skills. Your protrait is one
: > : dimensional as is most of your reasoning.
: >
: > Not all wife-slapping husbands are "authoritarian", many are loving
: > and fair minded (even Biblical) people who use this important form
: > of family discipline in only the most extreme cases, and practice
: > a wide range of other positive methods of solving family problems.
: disciplinary action towards children. While amusing, your reasoning
: is fallacious.
As LaVonne (?) stated, there is one difference. Children are smaller,
younger, and without rights. Anyway, the previous poster wasn't talking
about spusal abuse, just disciplining the spouse. You'll have to see the
difference between discipline and abuse.
: The problem I've seen here (for the past few years I've been keeping
: an eye on this debate) is that both sides are arguing two different
: issues; thus, no progress is really made.
Yes, the anti-violence side sees children as persons, unlike the
"pro-spankers".
--
__ ____ ____ ____ __ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____
/_/ / __/ / __/ / / / / \ / . / / / / / / / __/ / __/ / __/
/ / / / / / / / _\ / __ / / / / _/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / __/
/_/ /___/ /___/ /___/ /_/ /___/ /_/_/ /___/ /___/ /___/ /___/ /___/
Mike Duvos
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote:
: Physical punishment of children, and spousal abuse are interlinked
: issues. The more often a child is physically punished, the higher the
: statistical likelihood that they will physically abuse their spouse later
: in life (Straus, 1991).
Not to mention that other classes in society have the right not to have
their personal boundaries violated in an egregious fashion independent
of arguments about whether such treatment "works" to modify undesired
behavior.
In a civilized society, this argument would be about a child's right
not to be hurt by adult caregivers, rather than being about whether
hurting a child has later negative consequences for the society that
permits the practice.
John Alan Swanson
We reward our children for good behavior but do not discipline our children
for bad behavior. This is also the position of social workers across the
country.
A drunk driver kills a mother and her children. This is bad behavior, then
we do nothing, right? Do you see the problem?
Iggy Drougge
John Alan Swanson (jswa...@cyber-wizard.com) wrote:
: We reward our children for good behavior but do not discipline our children
: for bad behavior. This is also the position of social workers across the
: country.
Who is "we"? Has it ever occured to you that there can be non-violent
methods of discipline? Anyway, encouragement of the good actions is good.
: A drunk driver kills a mother and her children. This is bad behavior, then
: we do nothing, right? Do you see the problem?
"We", as in the government, probably puts the driver in jail or applies
some other form of punishment. Observe, howeverm that the court does not
use caning as a punishment in the western world.
--
____ ____ ____ __ ____ ____ ____ __ ____ __ __ ____
/ // . //_ //_// \ / / // _ / /_ \ __ /_ / /_/ / \ / . /
/ / // __/ / // // / / // / //\ \/ __/ / \/ / __/ / / / / / / __/
/___//_/ /_//_//_/_/_/ \__//___/ /___/ /___/ /_/ /_/_/ /___/
an...@zzz.com
Daniel J. Myers wrote:
> I think most people posting in this thread are missing a huge part of this
> whole problem. That is controlling behavior versus internalization. Even if
> it is the case that "if your bottom hurts, you're not likely to repeat it"
> (which is a highly dubious claim -- you might be less likely to get caught
> though), preventing a child from misbehaving out of fear accomplishes very
> little indeed. What children need is to be taught responsibility for their
> actions, not to have someone standing over them controlling their behavior with
> a big stick. What happens when the person with the big stick isn't standing
> there anymore? The child has only learn that they will get punished if they
> get caught doing something; they haven't learned why it's wrong, any genaral
> principles for differentiating right from wrong, or why it is important to
> adjudicate between proper and improper behavior.
The same can be said for discipline practices such as time-out, withdrawing
privilage, logical consequences, etc.. If they aren't caught, there is no
"punishment". One of the reasons that I've seen posted for spanking is that the
child is beyond reasoning with them at the time. The spanking is not end result of
their action, it is the beginning, by getting their attention, allowing some sort
of reason discussion to take place. If you already have the child's attention in
reasoning with them, I don't see many here advocating spanking. Positive
reinforcement is a great tool the great majority of the time, but it isn't always
effective. I'm not advocating spanking per se, but any sort of "punishment"
involves having gotten "caught".
Plato disucssed ethics as told through the story of Gyges Ring, which when worn,
would make a person invisible. The test of ethical behavior was then whether a
person would act exactly the same way while visible as while invisible. I would
think this is how most parents would want their children to behave. You haven't
mentioned how you *would* achieve this goal, only the way in which you do not
believe it can be achieved; as a parent to be, I would be most interested in an
explanation.
Amy
"Chance favors the prepared" ;-)
Antoon Pardon
: : : Not all parents who spank are "authoritarian", many are loving and fair
: : : minded people who use it only in the most extreme cases and practice a
: : : large range of postitive parenting skills. Your protrait is one
: : : dimensional as is most of your reasoning.
: : Not all wife-slapping husbands are "authoritarian", many are loving
: : and fair minded (even Biblical) people who use this important form
: : of family discipline in only the most extreme cases, and practice
: : a wide range of other positive methods of solving family problems.
: In other words, arguments in favor of spanking don't "travel
: well." As soon as all the mealy-mouthed justifications for hitting
: children are applied to *any* other class of persons, their offensiveness
: and absurdity become obvious.
Only the absurdity of placing the argument in a situation where
it doesn't apply. No matter what method one uses to discipline
kids and the arguments one uses to argument the use of this
method. That argument becomes absurd when applied to methods for
treating other adults. I'm not married to my kids and I don't
have to raise my kids. So I think it is very natural that I treat
the two differently and that an argument for treating my kids one
way would indeed sound very absurd should I use it to treat my
wife the same way. Taking this kind of reasoning into the extreme
would mean I couldn't feed a baby because all the argumnets to do
so would indeed sound very absurd if applied to my wife.
: We live in a society in which even a single slap to an adult
: constitutes abuse. Yet we have a less-stringent standard with regard to
: children, who are the most dependent, emotionally-vulnerable, easily
: traumatized members of society. This does not add up.
But what you always forget? to mention, is that spanking is not
the only action in that regard. The assault laws usually include
containment without consent and things like that as offenses. So
we live in a society where removing an adult forcefully is con-
sidered assault, yet I don't see anti-spankers arguing that kids
can't be forcefully removed from situations.
These kind of arguments from the anti-spankers is just special
pleading. They tell us: See kids get treated different here and
with less protection of the law then adults. This is wrong. How-
ever they remain silent of other situation that are just like
this and which they want to keep as it is, because they need it
in order to be allowed to use their method of choice. If kids
would be treated as adults for assault laws then it would be for-
bidden to put kids in a box or to move them without their con-
sent.
--
All opinions expressed herein are currently under revision
==========================================================
Antoon Pardon Brussels Free University Computing Centre
==========================================================
M. Spiteri
I have often said in the past that when I have kids I will not spank
them. Now that two of my closest friends have children I realize that
this is a naive statement. Both of them have spanked their children.
One out of reaction and frustration and one out of conscious choice. I
don't think the appropriate answer to discipline will ever be found. I
have a degree in psychology and a degree in sociology and I could debate
the issue until I am blue in the face.
It is my hope that whatever happens actions will be taken in the TRUE
best interests of the child. One course of action that I am completely
against is using physical force when disciplining a child for using such
force themselves, this will teach them nothing.
msde...@aol.com
>
>The problem I've seen here (for the past few years I've been keeping
>an eye on this debate) is that both sides are arguing two different
>issues; thus, no progress is really made.
>
>
well, actually, if you will remember that the original poster of " A Sore
Bottom" was a spanking fetish troll, you will see that this debate has
succeeded in saving him alot of money on 1-900 calls.
devane ***********************************************************
Gee, it seems that someone has put a stop payment
on your reality check. - Dr. Laura
***********************************************************************
Tammy
LaVonne Carlson <carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote in article
<32DD39...@maroon.tc.umn.edu>...
Lavonne as per usual your reading impairment is hindering you comprehension
skills. He was not *spanked*, so that you are not confused let me clarify
the definition for you. To spank is to hit the bottom, buttocks,rear end,
backside, hiney, behind, derierre, fanny, tushie, rump, or what ever you
want to call them ( feel free to supply your favorite term) with a open
hand. Aprox. about two to three swats, firmly to a fully clothed butt (
again feel free to use your favorite term for that part of the anatomy).
It is not face slapping, beating with canes, sticks or straps ( and yes I
am aware that some on this ng have admitted to doing so, most notably
Orenda. And she may have been wrong I don't know but we have heard from
her son on this manner and would presume that if he didn't think it was
abuseive than it most likely wasn't and just as all anti-spankers have
differing opinions so do pro-spankers) punching or rape. All of which have
been euqated to spanking ( see above defintion) here on this ng by a large
portion of the anti-spankers. He said he was often randomly slapped by his
mother and abused to the point of tears on many occasions and that he was
saddened that she did not get the *Help* she needed to stop abusing him
until after he was grown. He also stated that she was abused probably more
so than he.
And you can call it a "spanking" all day long if you want it still won't be
the truth.
You make my point extremly well thank you.
Vernon Quaintance
John Alan Swanson <jswa...@cyber-wizard.com> wrote:
> We reward our children for good behavior but do not discipline our children
> for bad behavior. This is also the position of social workers across the
> country.
>
And Social Workers have usually been responsible for the most monumental
mistakes in handling disturbed kids.
--
Vernon Quaintance
grandma
John Alan Swanson <jswa...@cyber-wizard.com> wrote:
We reward our children for good behavior but do not discipline our children
for bad behavior. This is also the position of social workers across the
country.
Vernon Quaintance <ver...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
And Social Workers have usually been responsible for the most monumental
mistakes in handling disturbed kids.
Grandma says:
Having been a therapeutic foster parent for awhile, and having had to deal
with social workers, I have reason to AGREE wholeheartedly with Vernain
Quaintance!
Blessings,
Grandma
Visit Grandma's Answer Pages at
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/6501
or send e-mail to Grandma at gra...@access.mountain.net
Antoon Pardon
LaVonne Carlson (carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote:
: >
: > Tammy (ta...@quancon.com) wrote:
: > : Chris (cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu) wrote:
: > : > [a quotation from Dr. Thomas Gordon]
: > : > "Remember this adage, 'When the cat is away, the mice will play'? Well,
: > : > when adult controllers turn their backs, [punitively disciplined]
: > : > youngsters usually show little self-control. Sometimes they rebelliously
: > : > do exactly what the adult authority has previously prohibited them from
: > : > doing.
: >
: > : This could be said of any discipline that the child finds unpleasent.
: >
: > Thanks for making this point, Tammy. This is a major argument in
: > favor of avoiding punishment in general as a discipline technique.
: I am glad Tammy posted this. Having argued against authoritarian
: parenting and punitive discipline as a method of instilling
: self-control (actually, the opposite generally occurs) I was delighted
: to see this quote.
Yes since you seemed to have misread it entirely. Using a non-
authoritarian parenting method doesn't mean the kid won't find
some limitations put on him unpleasant. And what ever method you
may use the precense of others is always a social controling fac-
tor. So when that controling factor falls away you will find some
mice playing whatever method you used.
Some time ago someone gave some advice about none punitive
methods. One rule of advice was to not leave your kid in a si-
tuation he was not ready for, mature enough etc. Well if this is
sound advice it is IMO admission that none punitive methods can't
avoid the mice play either.
If your kid wants badly to experiment with something and you as a
parent don't think he is ready for it then the chance exists that
your kid will try his experiment when you are not near. What
ever parenting method you use.
: > : Beleive it or not there are worse things than a spanking to some children
: > : and they can get very creative in attemps to not be caught even if the
: > : consesquence is not a spanking.
: Spanking is part of authoritarian parenting (adult controllers)
So is removing your kid from a situation. So is every situation
in which for whatever reason you as a parent wanted the last
word.
: and is
: definitely punitive discipline. This type of parenting does indeed,
: as Gordon stated and Tammy quoted, contribute to children with
: diminished self-control.
: LaVonne
: >
: > Thanks again, Tammy, for making an important point. What you
: > describe above is an accurate picture of how children *really* react to
: > punitive control (as opposed to authoritarian myths about how well
: > punishment supposedly "works.").
: >
: > Those interested in learning more about nonpunitive discipline are
: > urged to read "Discipline That Works" by Dr. Thomas Gordon.
: >
: > Chris, who just *loves* it when prospankers make his points for him. :-)
So much he doesn't care to read carefully but jumps on every op-
portunity that seems to present itself.
Richard Schwarz
> IN PRACTICE, it's usually administered too precipitously. Avoid it if
> possible. Find alternatives, if possible. But don't rule it out.
>
> Siiiiggghhhh. Parenting is no picnic. Mine are 15, 11, and 11.
>
AMEN!!!
Richard
Tammy
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote in article
<5bm8kr$n...@carbon.cudenver.edu>...
> Zach (za...@lsil.com) wrote:
>
> : Demonstrate how spousal abuse equates with using spanking as a
> : disciplinary action towards children. While amusing, your reasoning
> : is fallacious.
>
> Physical punishment of children, and spousal abuse are interlinked
> issues. The more often a child is physically punished, the higher the
> statistical likelihood that they will physically abuse their spouse later
> in life (Straus, 1991).
>
> Chris
Did Chris forget that in "Intimate Violence" by Straus that he says that a
child that witness' spousal abuse is more likely to engage in the behavior
than one who was physically punished.
--
Tammy
"Resistance is futile....."
Lt. Commander Data
First Contact
>
Amy Windmill
>My elder son (almost 14) on the other hand is well into the local idiom
>which refuses to recognise the word 'borrow':
>
>Him: I'll lend it off my friend
>
>Me: Borrow it
>
>Him: No... he's lending it to me
>
>Me: Yes, he's lending it to you and you are borrowing it from him
>
>Him: No, I'm lending it off him
>
>Me: You're *borrowing* it *from* him
>
>Him: I'm off now, Mum, see you later when I've lent this from him!
>
>Aaaaargh!
>
>The worst of it is, he does this on purpose! HELP!!!! ;-))
>
>Pat
I wonder if he does it in school and around his friends--when I was
14, I used to use the local idiom "warsh" for "wash" just to make my
mother go crazy, but never used it outside of the house, because I
knew it sounded silly. Now my youngest sister is 14, and she looks for
every possible way to drive our mom up the wall. I guess it's the fun
of being 14. I may be posting far off the point, but reading your
account made me remember my own teenagerdom. :)
Amy M. Windmill
a...@wfmm.com
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
an...@zzz.com wrote:
: Daniel J. Myers wrote:
: > I think most people posting in this thread are missing a huge part of this
: > whole problem. That is controlling behavior versus internalization. Even if
: > it is the case that "if your bottom hurts, you're not likely to repeat it"
: > (which is a highly dubious claim -- you might be less likely to get caught
: > though), preventing a child from misbehaving out of fear accomplishes very
: > little indeed. What children need is to be taught responsibility for their
: > actions, not to have someone standing over them controlling their behavior with
: > a big stick. What happens when the person with the big stick isn't standing
: > there anymore? The child has only learn that they will get punished if they
: > get caught doing something; they haven't learned why it's wrong, any genaral
: > principles for differentiating right from wrong, or why it is important to
: > adjudicate between proper and improper behavior.
: The same can be said for discipline practices such as time-out, withdrawing
: privilage, logical consequences, etc.. If they aren't caught, there is no
: "punishment". One of the reasons that I've seen posted for spanking is that the
: child is beyond reasoning with them at the time. The spanking is not end result of
: their action, it is the beginning, by getting their attention, allowing some sort
: of reason discussion to take place.
Sometimes adults behave unreasonably, won't listen, etc. Does
this justify hitting *them* to get *their* attention? If not, why should
a more protective standard apply to adults than to children?
: If you already have the child's attention in
: reasoning with them, I don't see many here advocating spanking. Positive
: reinforcement is a great tool the great majority of the time, but it isn't always
: effective. I'm not advocating spanking per se, but any sort of "punishment"
: involves having gotten "caught".
Both punishment and reward have problems and side effects. I
advocate Dr. Thomas Gordon's approach, outlined in his book "Discipline
That Works," which uses neither.
The fact that spanking isn't the only form of punishment which
creates additional problems does not constitute an argument in favor of
tolerating the practice.
Chris
LaVonne Carlson
Tammy wrote:
>
> cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote in article
> <5bm8kr$n...@carbon.cudenver.edu>...
> > Zach (za...@lsil.com) wrote:
> >
> > : Demonstrate how spousal abuse equates with using spanking as a
> > : disciplinary action towards children. While amusing, your reasoning
> > : is fallacious.
> >
> > Physical punishment of children, and spousal abuse are interlinked
> > issues. The more often a child is physically punished, the higher the
> > statistical likelihood that they will physically abuse their spouse later
> > in life (Straus, 1991).
> >
> > Chris
>
> Did Chris forget that in "Intimate Violence" by Straus that he says that a
> child that witness' spousal abuse is more likely to engage in the behavior
> than one who was physically punished.
Did Tammy forget that children who are physically punished are more
likely to engage in spousal abuse than children who are not
physicallly punished? Physical punishment of children can help create
the spousal abuse children witness.
LaVonne
>
> --
> Tammy
an...@zzz.com
LaVonne Carlson wrote (to Tammy):
> Here was an individual who had the courage to post that yes, spankings
> were indeed painful and harmful personally, but you felt the need to
> discount the post on the grounds that what he experienced wasn't a
> spanking. You illustrated Chris' point quickly and well.
Tammy has had a well-defined and consistent definition of what she considers a
"spanking". She didn't claim that the poster's hurt, pain, and harm was
unjustified. She simply pointed out that what happened to whoever posted, was
not part of what she defines as spanking and, as such, irrelevent to that which
she was speaking. That, of course, is what we are here to debate: not abortion,
not spanking for pleasure, and not beating by the psychologically imbalanced.
an...@zzz.com
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote:
>
> an...@zzz.com wrote:
> : Daniel J. Myers wrote:
>
> : > I think most people posting in this thread are missing a huge part of this
> : > whole problem. That is controlling behavior versus internalization. Even if
> : > it is the case that "if your bottom hurts, you're not likely to repeat it"
> : > (which is a highly dubious claim -- you might be less likely to get caught
> : > though), preventing a child from misbehaving out of fear accomplishes very
> : > little indeed. What children need is to be taught responsibility for their
> : > actions, not to have someone standing over them controlling their behavior with
> : > a big stick. What happens when the person with the big stick isn't standing
> : > there anymore? The child has only learn that they will get punished if they
> : > get caught doing something; they haven't learned why it's wrong, any genaral
> : > principles for differentiating right from wrong, or why it is important to
> : > adjudicate between proper and improper behavior.
>
> : The same can be said for discipline practices such as time-out, withdrawing
> : privilage, logical consequences, etc.. If they aren't caught, there is no
> : "punishment". One of the reasons that I've seen posted for spanking is that the
> : child is beyond reasoning with them at the time. The spanking is not end result of
> : their action, it is the beginning, by getting their attention, allowing some sort
> : of reason discussion to take place.
>
> Sometimes adults behave unreasonably, won't listen, etc. Does
> this justify hitting *them* to get *their* attention? If not, why should
> a more protective standard apply to adults than to children?
If you can't acknowledge that the relationship between a parent and a child *is*
different from the relationship between one adult to another, we won't be able to have
much of a discussion. An adult is *not* "in charge of" or "responsible for" another
adult. We hope that somewhere, somehow, someway, that adult was taught to be able to
control him/herself in some acceptable manner the great majority of the time, or that
adult will suffer the "adult" consequences (loss of job, family, home, (extreme) life).
> : If you already have the child's attention in
> : reasoning with them, I don't see many here advocating spanking. Positive
> : reinforcement is a great tool the great majority of the time, but it isn't always
> : effective. I'm not advocating spanking per se, but any sort of "punishment"
> : involves having gotten "caught".
>
> Both punishment and reward have problems and side effects. I
> advocate Dr. Thomas Gordon's approach, outlined in his book "Discipline
> That Works," which uses neither.
Can you elaborate a bit? I haven't seen the book, but will look for it.
> The fact that spanking isn't the only form of punishment which
> creates additional problems does not constitute an argument in favor of
> tolerating the practice.
Please don't assign to me an arguement I didn't make --I didn't make an arguement in
favor of spanking, nor did I say that *because* other methods of punishment create
additional problems, spanking is ok. I stated my understanding of why some parents decide
to spank, which seemed to be different than the one presented by the original poster. I
also pointed out that *any* punishment involves having gotten caught (the original
poster's point was that spanking doesn't work because it only occurs when one gets
caught). I (sincerely) asked for an elaboration on a method of discipline which somehow
avoids this complexity, and teaches a child to behave the same, regardless of who is
around. I will look up the book you referred, thank you.
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Antoon Pardon (apa...@rc4.vub.ac.be) wrote:
[snip]
: These kind of arguments from the anti-spankers is just special
: pleading. They tell us: See kids get treated different here and
: with less protection of the law then adults. This is wrong.
Okay. I get it. When prospankers argue that hitting and hurting
children in ways which would be "assault" if done to an adult are not
"assault" when done to a child because "children are different," this is
*not* "special pleading. But when antispankers argue for a uniform
standard - hitting people is wrong, regardless of age - this *is* "special
pleading." Thank you for setting the record straight, Antoon...
Chris, who wonders where this newsgroup would be without Antoon to correct
our flaws of logic for us.
LaVonne Carlson
Antoon Pardon wrote:
>
> LaVonne Carlson (carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
> : cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote:
> : >
> : > Tammy (ta...@quancon.com) wrote:
> : > : Chris (cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu) wrote:
> : > : > [a quotation from Dr. Thomas Gordon]
> : > : > "Remember this adage, 'When the cat is away, the mice will play'? Well,
> : > : > when adult controllers turn their backs, [punitively disciplined]
> : > : > youngsters usually show little self-control. Sometimes they rebelliously
> : > : > do exactly what the adult authority has previously prohibited them from
> : > : > doing.
> : >
> : I am glad Tammy posted this. Having argued against authoritarian
> : parenting and punitive discipline as a method of instilling
> : self-control (actually, the opposite generally occurs) I was delighted
> : to see this quote.
>
> Yes since you seemed to have misread it entirely. Using a non-
> authoritarian parenting method doesn't mean the kid won't find
> some limitations put on him unpleasant. And what ever method you
> may use the precense of others is always a social controling fac-
> tor. So when that controling factor falls away you will find some
> mice playing whatever method you used.
No, Antoon, I didn't misread anything. I was responding to the
passage of Gordon's book which Tammy posted: -- " Well,
when adult controllers turn their backs, [punitively disciplined]
youngsters usually show little self-control. Sometimes they
rebelliously do exactly what the adult authority has previously
prohibited them from doing."
Hitting/hurting a child is punishment and is a tool of adult
controllers who engage in punitive discipline. I was agreeing with
the portion Tammy quoted.
>
> Some time ago someone gave some advice about none punitive
> methods. One rule of advice was to not leave your kid in a si-
> tuation he was not ready for, mature enough etc. Well if this is
> sound advice it is IMO admission that none punitive methods can't
> avoid the mice play either.
Of course not (I was one individual who mentioned the above). There
is no magic pill, magic hit, magic strategy that will immediately turn
a child into an adult. Discipline is teaching. We choose the best
teaching strategies available. Putting a child in a situation he/she
is not ready to handle is not the fault of the child, but a reflection
on the judgement of the parent.
LaVonne
>
Orenda
Iggy Drougge wrote:
>
> John Alan Swanson (jswa...@cyber-wizard.com) wrote:
> : We reward our children for good behavior but do not discipline our children
> : for bad behavior. This is also the position of social workers across the
> : country.
>
> methods of discipline? Anyway, encouragement of the good actions is good.
>
Of course there are non violent methods of discipline, no one has said
we shouldn't use them ( we..... parents of children we love and care for
) And you always encourage good behavior... but how do you encourage
every little thing your child does right? I would have never had time
for any other discussions with my children if I would have praised all
their good behavior. ( which was 99.9999999999999999999999999% of the
time)
> : A drunk driver kills a mother and her children. This is bad behavior, then
> : we do nothing, right? Do you see the problem?
This is comparing the treating children as equal as adults that so many
of you seem so fond of...... and turning it around. That you DON'T
treat adults like you do children. Treat kids as adults?? Silly,
isn't it?
>
> "We", as in the government, probably puts the driver in jail or applies
> some other form of punishment. Observe, howeverm that the court does not
> use caning as a punishment in the western world.
Of course we don't ignore the bad behavior. That's the point. And no
one has recommended caning our kids either, at least not that I've seen.
Try to read what is said, comprehend it, and then make a valid argument
IF you have one.
Orenda
mama to Christopher and Marilyn
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Mike Duvos (m...@netcom.com) wrote:
: cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote:
: : Physical punishment of children, and spousal abuse are interlinked
: : issues. The more often a child is physically punished, the higher the
: : statistical likelihood that they will physically abuse their spouse later
: : in life (Straus, 1991).
: Not to mention that other classes in society have the right not to have
: their personal boundaries violated in an egregious fashion independent
: of arguments about whether such treatment "works" to modify undesired
: behavior.
No one on this newsgroup has yet managed to come up with any
evidence (aside from unverifiable anecdotes and testimonials) that
spanking "works" in any way other than stopping an undesirable behavior in
the short run. But even if such evidence existed it would not settle the
issue. Just because something "works" does not mean that it is harmless,
advisable, or ethically defensible. Forcing a chloroform-soaked rag over
the child's nose to render her unconscious would certainly "work" for
getting her not to resist going to sleep at bedtime. But the fact that
this technique "works" does not mean that chloroform exposure doesn't
correlate with increased incidence of cancers in the longer run.
Imagine an alt.parenting.chloroform newsgroup in which the
anti-chloroform faction posted citations of studies showing that children
dosed with chloroform have a statistically-significant elevation in their
rates of cancer in adulthood, and that the more often a person was forced
to breath chloroform vapors as a child the greater their risk of cancer.
The the pro-chloroformers retort with, "Yes but... it WORKS!" What is
wrong with this picture.
: In a civilized society, this argument would be about a child's right
: not to be hurt by adult caregivers, rather than being about whether
: hurting a child has later negative consequences for the society that
: permits the practice.
Yes... in a *civilized* society, perhaps... But in *this*
society, the argument needs to be about both the consequences for the
child *and* the consequences for society (which contains *adults* as well
as just mere *children*). Since spanking meets the needs of adults, not of
children, arguments about how it can harm the child lack political clout,
regardless of how much supporting evidence antispankers mobilize.
Therefore, it is also necessary to demonstrate that spanking correlates
with children who are more aggressive and less well behaved in the medium
run (Strassberg, 1994), and also correlates with a variety of antisocial
and criminal behaviors in adulthood (Straus, 1991). *These* arguments
carry more political weight because they demonstrate that spanking
children can cause problems for *adults* as well: aggressive, acting-out
children in the home and higher rates of violent crime on the streets.
In short, despite all the protestations of love one hears from
prospankers for the children they are hitting and hurting, it is next to
impossible to arouse any empathy or compassion in them for the negative
psychological/emotional effects of spankings on the child. But when one
addresses the needs, wants, and convenience of *adults*, it is much easier
to get their attention.
Chris, who thinks some parents *never* grow up...
Definition of "persons": adults.
-from "The Child Abuser's Dictionary"
REFERENCES
Strassberg, Z.; Dodge, K.A.; Petit, G.S. & Bates, J.E. 1994. "Spanking
in the Home and Children's Subsequent Aggression Toward Kindergarten
Peers." _Development and Psychopathology_, 6:445-461.
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
LaVonne Carlson (carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: Tammy wrote:
: > Chris <cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu> wrote:
: > >
: > > Physical punishment of children, and spousal abuse are interlinked
: > > issues. The more often a child is physically punished, the higher the
: > > statistical likelihood that they will physically abuse their spouse later
: > > in life (Straus, 1991).
: >
: > child that witness' spousal abuse is more likely to engage in the behavior
: > than one who was physically punished.
: Did Tammy forget that children who are physically punished are more
: likely to engage in spousal abuse than children who are not
: physicallly punished? Physical punishment of children can help create
: the spousal abuse children witness.
The National Family Violence Surveys and other research has shown
that the reasons abusive spouses give for hitting are the same kinds of
reasons prospank parents give for hitting: he wouldn't do what I asked, he
wouldn't listen, he wouldn't be reasonable, etc. Spankings are spouse
abuse training. When parents explain afterwards why they spanked, they
are not only modeling hitting behavior to their child but also teaching
their child what to say in order to rationalize hitting a loved one
(Gelles & Straus, 1990).
Chris
REFERENCE
Gelles, R.J. & Straus, M.A. 1990. _Physical Violence In American
Families: Risk Factors and Adaptations To Violence In 8,145 Families_.
New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers.
can...@hotmail.com
In article <21tvZJCN...@pierless.demon.co.uk>,
Pat Winstanley <pee...@pierless.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> My elder son (almost 14) on the other hand is well into the local idiom
> which refuses to recognise the word 'borrow':
>
> Him: I'll lend it off my friend
> Me: Borrow it
> Him: No... he's lending it to me
[snip]
Annoying perhaps. But is it a big thing?
In Canada we "hire" a person and "rent" a thing.
We might "rent" a car and "hire" a driver.
In England you would "hire" a car, even a drive-it-yourself car.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Pat Dugal
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote:
> : Not all wife-slapping husbands are "authoritarian", many are loving
> : and fair minded (even Biblical) people who use this important form
> : of family discipline in only the most extreme cases, and practice
> : a wide range of other positive methods of solving family problems.
>
> In other words, arguments in favor of spanking don't "travel
> well." As soon as all the mealy-mouthed justifications for hitting
> children are applied to *any* other class of persons, their offensiveness
> and absurdity become obvious.
>
> We live in a society in which even a single slap to an adult
> constitutes abuse. Yet we have a less-stringent standard with regard to
> children, who are the most dependent, emotionally-vulnerable, easily
> traumatized members of society. This does not add up.
>
> Chris
I've been reading many of your posts, Chris..
I'd just thought I'd let you know that you're making excellent and valid
arguments... in this post as well as many others...
Good job man!
--
************************************************
My Contribution to the 'Net': http://www.synapse.net/~kreator
CAST Web Page: http://www.ftn.net/~cast/index.htm
My E-mail: mailto:kre...@synapse.net
Note: This E-mail is best viewed with Netscape, if you don't use it...
you suck
************************************************
Enid Yvonne Karr
In <853600...@dejanews.com> can...@hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>In England you would "hire" a car, even a drive-it-yourself car.
>
Yeah, but once you hire the darn car, it expects
benefits....
Steve Myers
In alt.parents-teens, can...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> My elder son (almost 14) on the other hand is well into the local idiom
>> which refuses to recognise the word 'borrow':
I'm afraid it is probably a losing battle to try to get your son to
resist talking in the same way that others do in the locality. It
could be worse - a far more serious condition is to start using
'irregular' verbs, such as:
He steals; You steal; I borrow
He shouts; You shout; I make myself heard
He bullies; You bully; I'm only joking
etc..
-----------
Steve Myers
http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk
Antoon Pardon
LaVonne Carlson (carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: Antoon Pardon wrote:
: >
: > LaVonne Carlson (carl...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
: > : cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote:
: > : >
: > : > Tammy (ta...@quancon.com) wrote:
: > : > : Chris (cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu) wrote:
: > : > : > [a quotation from Dr. Thomas Gordon]
: > : > : > "Remember this adage, 'When the cat is away, the mice will play'? Well,
: > : > : > when adult controllers turn their backs, [punitively disciplined]
: > : > : > youngsters usually show little self-control. Sometimes they rebelliously
: > : > : > do exactly what the adult authority has previously prohibited them from
: > : > : > doing.
: > : >
: (snip)
: > : I am glad Tammy posted this. Having argued against authoritarian
: > : parenting and punitive discipline as a method of instilling
: > : self-control (actually, the opposite generally occurs) I was delighted
: > : to see this quote.
: >
: > Yes since you seemed to have misread it entirely. Using a non-
: > authoritarian parenting method doesn't mean the kid won't find
: > some limitations put on him unpleasant. And what ever method you
: > may use the precense of others is always a social controling fac-
: > tor. So when that controling factor falls away you will find some
: > mice playing whatever method you used.
: No, Antoon, I didn't misread anything. I was responding to the
: passage of Gordon's book which Tammy posted: -- " Well,
That quotation seems to been done by chris. The comment from Tam-
my that you snipped was. "That can be said of any method the kid
finds unpleasant." To this Chris commented something about puni-
tive and authoritarian parents on which you jumped. Both of you
jumping from "a method the kid finds unpleasant" to punitive and
authoritarian parenting as if the two are the same. It still
looks like you have a reading problem.
Marking following paragraph (1) for further reference
: when adult controllers turn their backs, [punitively disciplined]
: youngsters usually show little self-control. Sometimes they
: rebelliously do exactly what the adult authority has previously
: prohibited them from doing."
: Hitting/hurting a child is punishment and is a tool of adult
: controllers who engage in punitive discipline. I was agreeing with
: the portion Tammy quoted.
: >
: > Some time ago someone gave some advice about none punitive
: > methods. One rule of advice was to not leave your kid in a si-
: > tuation he was not ready for, mature enough etc. Well if this is
: > sound advice it is IMO admission that none punitive methods can't
: > avoid the mice play either.
Marking following paragraph (2) for further reference
: Of course not (I was one individual who mentioned the above). There
: is no magic pill, magic hit, magic strategy that will immediately turn
: a child into an adult. Discipline is teaching. We choose the best
: teaching strategies available. Putting a child in a situation he/she
: is not ready to handle is not the fault of the child, but a reflection
: on the judgement of the parent.
Well LaVonne and that is exactly what I find dishonest about the
way some of the anti-spankers make their arguments.
First as you do in (1) you point to a particular method and say
see this method has problems with behaviour X. (implying this is
a particular short coming of this method). But you admit in (2)
this is a problem inherent in raising kids. Of course you you
choose your words carefully to make them look different. When the
cat is away, the mice will play is reworded in: Putting a child
in a situation he/she is not ready to handle is not the fault of
the child. Very correct. But it is then dishonest to pick out one
method and one situation to which this applies and then say: see
it can't handle this.
Antoon Pardon
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu wrote:
: Antoon Pardon (apa...@rc4.vub.ac.be) wrote:
: [snip]
: : These kind of arguments from the anti-spankers is just special
: : pleading. They tell us: See kids get treated different here and
: Okay. I get it. When prospankers argue that hitting and hurting
: children in ways which would be "assault" if done to an adult are not
: "assault" when done to a child because "children are different," this is
: *not* "special pleading. But when antispankers argue for a uniform
: standard - hitting people is wrong, regardless of age - this *is* "special
: pleading." Thank you for setting the record straight, Antoon...
This is an ad hominem.
There may have been a number of (choice) spankers who worded
their argument as you paraprase it and made the same error. So?
That doesn't make your error here any less.
Stating your view as arguing for a uniform standard is IMO
misrepresentation. You only are arguing for a uniform standard
in a particular aspect.
You are not arguing for a general uniform standard in which chil-
dren would be treated exactly like adults. So you seem to recog-
nize a uniform standard is not always a good solution. Using the
uniform standard as if this in itself implies a good solution,
for argueing against spanking is special pleading.
: Chris, who wonders where this newsgroup would be without Antoon to correct
: our flaws of logic for us.
Antoon: who think it makes very little different if people choose
to respond with heckling instead of trying to improve their argu-
ments.
Watzit Tuya
On 20 Jan 1997 10:02:25 GMT, apa...@rc4.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
wrote:
>Well LaVonne and that is exactly what I find dishonest about the
>way some of the anti-spankers make their arguments.
>
>First as you do in (1) you point to a particular method and say
>see this method has problems with behaviour X. (implying this is
>a particular short coming of this method). But you admit in (2)
>this is a problem inherent in raising kids. Of course you you
>choose your words carefully to make them look different. When the
>cat is away, the mice will play is reworded in: Putting a child
>in a situation he/she is not ready to handle is not the fault of
>the child. Very correct. But it is then dishonest to pick out one
>method and one situation to which this applies and then say: see
>it can't handle this.
>
>--
>All opinions expressed herein are currently under revision
>==========================================================
>Antoon Pardon Brussels Free University Computing Centre
>==========================================================
>
What about bad behavior in situations that they can handle? Also
avoiding putting a child in a situation that they can't handle
doesn't teach them responsibility. guidance through the situation is
teaching responsibility.
Steak...@msn.com
Jörgen carlsson <jorgen....@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote in article
<01bbfff6$c373bb40$154b...@win95.swipnet.se>...
> Are you nuts? They only remember the sore not the reason of it. As a
> matter a fact, the deepest sore will always be on the mind.
>
> Wanda Lewis <a...@aol.com> skrev i inlägg <32D60A...@aol.com>...
> > There are times when a kid needs a hard spanking. A sore bottom
> > does wonders for the memory.
> >
>
Children are smarter than you are giving them credit for being. Children
remember the reason and the sore bottom. Don't tell me that you don't
remember making an "F" and whether you got a sore bottom, you did not want
to make another one. An "F" is the intellectual equal of a sore bottom.
However, it is not as effective for some offenses. A ticket for speeding is
the intellectual equal of a sore bottom. It is a little more effective,
because some times you are fined, and that is a really sore bottom.
Therefore, pain makes a crime stick out in your mind, and makes you
remember no to do that again. If you stick your finger in a light socket,
you get shocked. That's a sore bottom. You remember the sore bottom, the
details of the incident, and you don't do it again.
See 'ya,
Dan
LaVonne Carlson
Steak...@msn.com wrote:
>
> Jörgen carlsson <jorgen....@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote in article
> <01bbfff6$c373bb40$154b...@win95.swipnet.se>...
> > Are you nuts? They only remember the sore not the reason of it. As a
> > matter a fact, the deepest sore will always be on the mind.
> >
> > Wanda Lewis <a...@aol.com> skrev i inlägg <32D60A...@aol.com>...
> > > There are times when a kid needs a hard spanking. A sore bottom
> > > does wonders for the memory.
> > >
> >
> Children are smarter than you are giving them credit for being. Children
> remember the reason and the sore bottom. Don't tell me that you don't
> remember making an "F" and whether you got a sore bottom, you did not want
> to make another one. An "F" is the intellectual equal of a sore bottom.
No, an F is a result of you not knowing the material. A sore bottom
is the result of being hit. You cannot legally be hit for not knowing
the material.
> However, it is not as effective for some offenses. A ticket for speeding is
> the intellectual equal of a sore bottom. It is a little more effective,
> because some times you are fined, and that is a really sore bottom.
A fine is a result of ignoring speeding laws. A sore bottom is the
result of being hit. You cannot be legally hit for speeding.
> Therefore, pain makes a crime stick out in your mind, and makes you
> remember no to do that again. If you stick your finger in a light socket,
> you get shocked. That's a sore bottom.
Being shocked is a result of sticking your finger in a light socket.
A sore bottom is a result of being hit.
You remember the sore bottom, the
> details of the incident, and you don't do it again.
You remember the sore bottom, which has nothing to do with the
incident. You remember that hitting others is a way to express
displeasure -- you solve problems by hitting. You remember that it is
especially effective if the person you hit is younger, smaller, and
weaker than you. You remember how to be a bully.
LaVonne
> See 'ya,
> Dan
rhood
I remember a time when corporal punishment was more widely used, and
there were not as many crimes committed as there are today!
Everyone today is a victim of somebody else's actions. We have become
a nation of victims, and whiners. What are you a victim of LaVonne?!
Peace,
Rich
Collins-Russell
Steak...@msn.com wrote in article
<01bc1451$59b56d60$LocalHost@default>...
>
>
> Jörgen carlsson <jorgen....@mailbox.swipnet.se> wrote in article
> <01bbfff6$c373bb40$154b...@win95.swipnet.se>...
> > Are you nuts? They only remember the sore not the reason of it. As a
> > matter a fact, the deepest sore will always be on the mind.
> Children are smarter than you are giving them credit for being. Children
> remember the reason and the sore bottom. Don't tell me that you don't
> remember making an "F" and whether you got a sore bottom, you did not
want
now i just remember how much i despised and feared my parents
> to make another one. An "F" is the intellectual equal of a sore bottom.
> However, it is not as effective for some offenses. A ticket for speeding
is
> the intellectual equal of a sore bottom. It is a little more effective,
it doesn't caused bodily injury...you'd sue a cop if he hit you. and cops
are supposed to enforce the law....they don't have the added responsibility
of teaching love and respect.
> because some times you are fined, and that is a really sore bottom.
no...it's having to give one of your toys away.
> remember no to do that again. If you stick your finger in a light socket,
> you get shocked. That's a sore bottom. You remember the sore bottom, the
> details of the incident, and you don't do it again.
if you teach your child to avoid things that hurt them by hitting them,
they will learn....soon they'll avoid you.
Gillian
> You remember the sore bottom, which has nothing to do with the
> incident. You remember that hitting others is a way to express
> displeasure -- you solve problems by hitting. You remember that it is
> especially effective if the person you hit is younger, smaller, and
> weaker than you. You remember how to be a bully.
>
> LaVonne
You said it! My father spanked me when I was a kid, thinking he was
teaching me "respect." It took me years to get over my fear and loathing
for him. Twelve years ago, when my husband and I first started seeing
eachother, he brought it to my attention that whenever I was exhasperated
with him, I'd slap him--hard-- on the leg. I never thought this was
abusive until he called it to my attention. Hmmm....Where do you think I
learned that behavior...? Incidentally, I stopped doing it, and I have
never--and will never--hit my child.
Gillian
Collins-Russell
> You said it! My father spanked me when I was a kid, thinking he was
> teaching me "respect." It took me years to get over my fear and loathing
> for him. Twelve years ago, when my husband and I first started seeing
> eachother, he brought it to my attention that whenever I was exhasperated
> with him, I'd slap him--hard-- on the leg. I never thought this was
> abusive until he called it to my attention. Hmmm....Where do you think I
> learned that behavior...? Incidentally, I stopped doing it, and I have
> never--and will never--hit my child.
i 2nd this....i had -exactly- the same experience.
Marcy Thompson
rhood <ri...@cland.net> wrote:
>I remember a time when corporal punishment was more widely used, and
>there were not as many crimes committed as there are today!
I remember a time when you could not buy disposable diapers and there
were not as many crimes committed as there are today.
I remember a time when poll taxes were common throughout the South and
there were not as many crimes committed as there are today.
I remember a time when the only television programs that were broadcast
in America were in Black and White, and there were not as many crimes
committed as there are today.
I remeber a time when no one had walked on the moon, and there were not
as many crimes committed as ther are today.
There was a time before I was born when no one drove around in automobiles,
and there were not as many crimes committed as there are today (and no one
used a semi-automatic weapon in the commission of a felony, either).
There was time before I was born when a school teacher had to quit her
job when she married, and there were not as many crimes committed as
there are today.
A corrolation does not a causal relation make. You cannot observe that
A and B happened at the same time and claim that THEREFORE A caused B.
Marcy
--
Marcy Thompson
home: ma...@squirrel.com (working again as of 1/1/1997)
work: m...@criinc.com (new as of 11/11/1996)
Usenet only: ma...@world.std.com (some things never change)
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Gillian (cul...@aloha.net) wrote:
[snip]
: You said it! My father spanked me when I was a kid, thinking he was
: teaching me "respect." It took me years to get over my fear and loathing
: for him.
In prospank argot, "respect" is a code-word for "fear."
: Twelve years ago, when my husband and I first started seeing
: eachother, he brought it to my attention that whenever I was exhasperated
: with him, I'd slap him--hard-- on the leg. I never thought this was
: abusive until he called it to my attention.
We learn how to interact with others at an early age by
experiencing how our parents interact with us. If our parents hit us
whenever our behavior exasperates them, this will later on seem like the
"natural" thing for *us* to do when someone exasperates *us*.
: Hmmm....Where do you think I
: learned that behavior...? Incidentally, I stopped doing it, and I have
: never--and will never--hit my child.
: Gillian
Chris
cdd...@ouray.cudenver.edu
Collins-Russell (frus...@bga.com) wrote:
: Steak...@msn.com wrote:
[snip]
: > remember no to do that again. If you stick your finger in a light socket,
: > you get shocked. That's a sore bottom. You remember the sore bottom, the
: > details of the incident, and you don't do it again.
: if you teach your child to avoid things that hurt them by hitting them,
: they will learn....soon they'll avoid you.
Many parents respond to this kind of comment by saying "*My* kids
don't avoid ME!" But once these spanked children reach adolescence, that
is all-too-often precisely what they *do* do. Even if they aren't
*physically* absent, they remove themselves by not telling their parents
what is on their minds, etc. Others may barricade themselves in their
rooms and passively withdraw from family life. The parents wonder, "why
don't our teenagers *talk* to us anymore?" and may blame MTV,
permissiveness, and liberalism among other things. The one place they
generally don't place the blame is on themselves for raising their child
to regard them as light sockets which hurt.
Chris
nhz...@ezdial.com
"Collins-Russell" <frus...@bga.com> wrote:
>now i just remember how much i despised and feared my parents
Funny, I feel the same way, but not because they spanked me. Rather,
they took away money, restricted me to my room, grounded me, etc.
That frustrated me even more than a swat would have.
>if you teach your child to avoid things that hurt them by hitting them,
>they will learn....soon they'll avoid you.
I avoid my parents anyway, and they didn't spank me.
nhz...@ezdial.com
<Steak...@msn.com> wrote:
>However, it is not as effective for some offenses. A ticket for speeding is
>the intellectual equal of a sore bottom. It is a little more effective,
screwed up law enforcement system even more than you already do.
Besides, parents don't go out of their way to entrap their kids when
they have a constitutional and legal obligation to be protecting them.