Thumbelina: sexist movie perpetuating ethnic stereotypes
Julia Rodriguez
Friday. I was shocked that such sexist, ethnicly biased children's
movies continued to be made.
Scenes that really made me angry:
1) Bad guys are the only ones with "foreign" spanish accents. Of
course, they are drawn as characatures of latins. There was no
need for this. These characters were toads!
2) Latin music is imputed to be screeching. When they want Thumbelina
to sing they step on her foot and she starts sceaming. Everyone
thinks its great singing.
3) When one of the "bad guys" is acting stupid, one of the other
characters slaps him in the face and says "SPEAK ENGLISH"
4) The career option is held out by the kidnappers (the bad guys) as
an alternative to cooking and cleaning for the good guy prince.
5) Males do not take no for an answer when making advances to
Thumbelina and when they continue flattering her she begins smiling
and goes along with them.
I was able to discuss the sexism with my daughter, but I had a harder
time with the racial stereotypes. I almost felt that my discussion
might reinforce the stereotype presented.
Suggestions as to how to deal with this would be appreciated.
--
Julia Rodriguez
Scott Macomber
: jul...@cup.hp.com (Julia Rodriguez) writes:
:
: >My father-in-law took my 6 year old daughter and I to Thumbelina last
: >Friday. I was shocked that such sexist, ethnicly biased children's
: >movies continued to be made.
Jamesy (SUK...@MVS.sas.com) wrote:
: Y Much bleating drivel deleted.
: Where are all the smilies?
: Are you really serious Julia? Aha! Got it. Julia _Rodriguez_ .....
: anti-latino film ...... is see.
: If you were so 'shocked' at Thumbelina, (I can't believe I'm writing
: this <g>) then don't for Christ's sake step outside your front door.
: Sheesh.
: Jamesy
:
: --
: +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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: ¦ 'CIVILISE ENGLAND'S LICENCING LAWS.... ' ¦
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Hi Julia,
I was shocked to read your message, because it's hard to believe there's
a _new_ movie for children full of such nasty stereotypes!
But I really wasn't prepared for the ignorant drivel from "Jamesy"
My only suggestions are the obvious: ignore him.
BUT, write to the makers and distributors of the movie.
As a matter of fact I'd bet letters from hundreds of
misc.kidders saying we will NOT spend our hard earned money
on so-called "entertainment" for our kids which
perpetuate racist and sexist stereotypes, might make
a difference. Copies of such letters sent to local papers
might make people think twice about taking their children,
hitting the film-makers and distributors where it hurts most,
their wallets.
If we can come up with nearly 200 people willing to organize a
photoalbum, surely we can get at least that many to write
a letter or two. We've got the meat of a pretty good letter
in Julia's message and her list of specific examples in the movie.
Julia, may we use your list in any letters we write?
So how about it. Can someone find out the names and addresses
of the film makers and distributors? And don't forget local papers.
Let's give the public more to think about than they'll find
just looking in the ads.
scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
sco...@bu.edu Boston University, Center for Remote Sensing
"daddy" or "mommy" to Nathan (11-16-92), depending on what he wants from me :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julie Grinstead
>From: jul...@cup.hp.com (Julia Rodriguez)
>Subject: Thumbelina: sexist movie perpetuating ethnic stereotypes
>Date: Mon, 11 Apr 1994 20:15:45 GMT
>Julia Rodriguez
Let me add to the list of things that irritated me about the movie. I didn't
pick up so much on the latino stereotyping because 1) I grimaced through all
of the music because I thought it was so bad and 2) I was too busy being
bugged by all the stuff being thrown out for little girls to digest...such as:
1) Thumbelina is told by the handsome prince that she is beautiful, so she
believes she is beautiful. She is then told by the beetles that she is
ugly...so she immediately believes she is ugly and is boo-hooing all over the
place with a bad self image. then the bird comes back and tells her
that she is beautiful again, so she perks up...YUCK!
2) Thumbelina thinks that the prince is dead, so she figures she might as well
marry the mean mole who she can't stand. (YIKES...are these the only
options...what if she just decided to escape and live her own life...obviosly
not an option for poor little self-esteem-less Thumbelina)
3) In more than one scene, Thumbelina is just ready to give up and can't think
of a single thing to do to improve her situation until some male character
shows up to rescue her and convince her that she really can do something about
the situation.
I found the movie bad, offensive and just plain boring. Every time another
song came on, my husband and I just looked at each other and stuck our fingers
down our throats! (p.s. I only have sons, but still don't want them to have
these views of women)
Julie Grinstead
Wendy E. Betts
Jamesy <SUK...@MVS.sas.com> wrote:
>In article <Co42y...@cup.hp.com>,
>jul...@cup.hp.com (Julia Rodriguez) writes:
>
>>My father-in-law took my 6 year old daughter and I to Thumbelina last
>>Friday. I was shocked that such sexist, ethnicly biased children's
>Where are all the smilies?
>
>Are you really serious Julia? Aha! Got it. Julia _Rodriguez_ .....
>anti-latino film ...... is see.
>If you were so 'shocked' at Thumbelina, (I can't believe I'm writing
>this <g>) then don't for Christ's sake step outside your front door.
>Sheesh.
>Jamesy
I have not seen "Thumbelina" but I have trouble believing it could be
anything like as offensive as this *reply*. So _only_ a person with a
Spanish name would be disturbed by this movie, eh? No other person
would think the type of sexism and racism she describes is anything to
worry about.
The world outside our doors is bad enough without having to pay for
the privilege of having our children insulted and corrupted.
--
Wendy E. Betts A list is available of ways to access the
Editor, The WEB WEB Online Review. Mail me to receive it.
w...@armory.com
Jan Silbermann
opened her mouth up nice and wide. We didn't even have to
prompt her, one look at those dental tools and it was WIDE open.
Her teeth are not decayed, they are stained. The dentist and I were
at a loss to figure out why. She doesn't drink juice or formula,
the vitamins didn't do it, her anti-convlusants aren't supposed to
have done that. The stains are interesting looking, they look
kind of metallic almost as if she had a filling.
What could be causing this?
Jan
jesse scott campbell
would find this movie offensive and that children should
NOT be exposed to movies with racism from a personal experience.
A few years ago I lived in a Hispanic community,
and became friends with many of my neighbors. One summer
the building had a roach problem, and I was talking about
killing them, making roach voices "Aiiieeeeeee!! You
got me" "You keeled my seester!" I was using a really
cheesy Mexican accent, and my neighbors were VERY offended.
I was not brought up to be racist at all, but as
a child, the small vermin in cartoons always had Mexican
accents. So without even thinking, I used a very bigoted
racial stereotype.
I think that silly cartoons stick in your head
far into adulthood, and racial stereotypes can be buried
underneath and crop up. This can make people, unknowingly
but still offensively say things that are cruel.
There are so many blatant attacks on minorities
that we should try to stamp out the subtle ones, because
they are more easily corrected, and might lead fewer
people to commit racism or lead to thinking that minorities
though it is wrong to hate them, it is ok to mock them.
Jamesy
sco...@bu.edu (Scott Macomber) writes:
>
>: jul...@cup.hp.com (Julia Rodriguez) writes:
>:
>: >My father-in-law took my 6 year old daughter and I to Thumbelina last
>
>I was shocked to read your message, because it's hard to believe there's
>a _new_ movie for children full of such nasty stereotypes!
>
>But I really wasn't prepared for the ignorant drivel from "Jamesy"
>My only suggestions are the obvious: ignore him.
too.
Jamesy
jgri...@indiana.edu (Julie Grinstead) writes:
>In article <Co42y...@cup.hp.com> jul...@cup.hp.com (Julia Rodriguez) writes:
>>From: jul...@cup.hp.com (Julia Rodriguez)
>>Subject: Thumbelina: sexist movie perpetuating ethnic stereotypes
>>Date: Mon, 11 Apr 1994 20:15:45 GMT
>
>pick up so much on the latino stereotyping because 1) I grimaced through all
>of the music because I thought it was so bad and 2) I was too busy being
>bugged by all the stuff being thrown out for little girls to digest...such as:
>
>1) Thumbelina is told by the handsome prince that she is beautiful, so she
>believes she is beautiful. She is then told by the beetles that she is
>ugly...so she immediately believes she is ugly and is boo-hooing all over the
>place with a bad self image. then the bird comes back and tells her
>that she is beautiful again, so she perks up...YUCK!
>
>2) Thumbelina thinks that the prince is dead, so she figures she might as well
>marry the mean mole who she can't stand. (YIKES...are these the only
>options...what if she just decided to escape and live her own life...obviosly
>not an option for poor little self-esteem-less Thumbelina)
>
>3) In more than one scene, Thumbelina is just ready to give up and can't think
>of a single thing to do to improve her situation until some male character
>shows up to rescue her and convince her that she really can do something about
>the situation.
>
>I found the movie bad, offensive and just plain boring. Every time another
>song came on, my husband and I just looked at each other and stuck our fingers
>down our throats! (p.s. I only have sons, but still don't want them to have
>these views of women)
>
>Julie Grinstead
>
>
All this PC (there I've said it now) crap about ban/change every pre
nineties kids/fairy story to make it politically corr-bloody-ect is
about the saddest part of the whole PC scene. I forget who and when
Thumbelina was original written but I seriously doubt that enforcing
a stereotypical sexist, racist, capitulating and discriminatory
female image intended purely to bring down women in the eyes of the
world and thus create a lower class of subservient people was the
idea.
Get a life you people. There are _real_ things to worry about in the
world. _Real_ dangers to educate children about.
Let's think a minute;
Heroine (don't panic not the drug <g>) has ups and downs in her life
happy and sad, on the edge of the abyss and the hero turns up to
marry her, save the day and ride off into the sun-set. It just about
describes every pantomime and fairy story ever written. Are you
going to ban all those as well? Why not go the whole hog and torch
the church hall at christmas time for portraying these evil images
in Panto? Fire bomb bookstores for carrying fairy tales as well, eh.
'Sorry citizen, but I have to kill you. It's the only way to protect my
daughter from your propoganda.'
Jamesy
w...@armory.com (Wendy E. Betts) writes:
>In article <1994041208...@mvs.sas.com>,
>Jamesy <SUK...@MVS.sas.com> wrote:
>>In article <Co42y...@cup.hp.com>,
>>jul...@cup.hp.com (Julia Rodriguez) writes:
>>
>
>I have not seen "Thumbelina" but I have trouble believing it could be
>anything like as offensive as this *reply*. So _only_ a person with a
>Spanish name would be disturbed by this movie, eh? No other person
>would think the type of sexism and racism she describes is anything to
>worry about.
>
>The world outside our doors is bad enough without having to pay for
>the privilege of having our children insulted and corrupted.
>
enough perspective you can find 'corruption and insults' in absolutely
_everything_. My philosophy (FWIW) through life is that the bad things
will find you anyway so devote your energy to looking for the good
stuff. As for your first para, the point I was making is that nigh
on every 'bad' point about the movie made referred to Latino qualms
and 'discrimianation'. Some small coincidence that Julia's surname is
Spanish then. I don't recall saying that no-one else would be
'shocked' by the movie but if you've managed to read that into my
post then thanks for proving the first part of this followup correct.
I've just noticed that the background to my mainframe screen is always
black! Aaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!!! Discrimination!!!!!!!!!! The statue of
Liberty gets crapped on by pigeons! Aaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!! Degrading
females the world over!!!!!
Blimey this is easy isn't it! I think I might become PC! ;-)
Now back to looking for the good things in life....
Jamesy
>Friday. I was shocked that such sexist, ethnicly biased children's
Where are all the smilies?
anti-latino film ...... is see.
If you were so 'shocked' at Thumbelina, (I can't believe I'm writing
this <g>) then don't for Christ's sake step outside your front door.
Sheesh.
Renate Brink
>From: sco...@bu.edu (Scott Macomber)
>Subject: Re: Thumbelina: sexist movie perpetuating ethnic stereotypes
>Date: 12 Apr 1994 14:30:35 GMT
Deleted ...
>BUT, write to the makers and distributors of the movie.
>As a matter of fact I'd bet letters from hundreds of
>misc.kidders saying we will NOT spend our hard earned money
>on so-called "entertainment" for our kids which
>perpetuate racist and sexist stereotypes, might make
>a difference. Copies of such letters sent to local papers
>might make people think twice about taking their children,
>hitting the film-makers and distributors where it hurts most,
>their wallets.
>If we can come up with nearly 200 people willing to organize a
>photoalbum, surely we can get at least that many to write
>a letter or two. We've got the meat of a pretty good letter
>in Julia's message and her list of specific examples in the movie.
>Julia, may we use your list in any letters we write?
>So how about it. Can someone find out the names and addresses
>of the film makers and distributors? And don't forget local papers.
>Let's give the public more to think about than they'll find
>just looking in the ads.
>scott
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>sco...@bu.edu Boston University, Center for Remote Sensing
>"daddy" or "mommy" to Nathan (11-16-92), depending on what he wants from me :)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am not saying that Julia doesn't have some valid criticisms, but I think
Scott's reaction to them scares me. He is willing to judge, and he wants
everyone else to judge, something without first checking it out personally.
It's this type of gung ho vigilante mentality that has caused books (and
witches) to be burned, plays to be closed, movies to flop - when *sometimes*
it's not merited.
I have two youngsters. I had thought about taking them to see this movie and
now I'm probably not going to. I can decide this for my family but I don't
think I should be able to decide for yours.
(Talk about pushing my *hot* button!)
Dan Breslau
[...]
> Get a life you people.
[...]
I'm amazed at how often the folks who give this advice are the ones who
most desparately need to follow it.
We now return you to your regular flame fest, already in progress.
Dan Breslau
da...@corp.logica.com
How does a doo-dah man truck, anyway?
Mark Dolson
:
: And don't forget to ignore the real world and that might go away
: too.
OK, I'll bite, what's your point? That there's racism in the world,
so we should expose our children to it at every opportunity?
--
Laura Dolson
dol...@crl.ucsd.edu
Jamesy
da...@corp.logica.com (Dan Breslau) writes:
>In article <1994041304...@MVS.sas.com>, SUK...@MVS.sas.com (Jamesy)
>
>[...]
>
>> Get a life you people.
>
>[...]
>
>I'm amazed at how often the folks who give this advice are the ones who
>most desparately need to follow it.
>
>We now return you to your regular flame fest, already in progress.
>
Consider a 'complete' life. One does everything, believes everything
and likes everything etc. Got the picture? Completely and utterly
full. Everything that one then excludes from ones life must therefore
reduce it. So each picky little PC piece of rubbish that prevents
one from welcoming an aspect of life into oneself with open arms
reduces the overall quantity of life itself, until one ends up a
crabby, paranoid squealer, too scared to do anything or go
anywhere for fright of offending others or being offended oneself.
Therefore, get a life.
Renate Brink
>From: ren...@mcs.com (Renate Brink)
>Subject: Re: Thumbelina: sexist movie perpetuating ethnic stereotypes
>In article <2oebab$4...@news.bu.edu> sco...@bu.edu (Scott Macomber) writes:
>>From: sco...@bu.edu (Scott Macomber)
>>Subject: Re: Thumbelina: sexist movie perpetuating ethnic stereotypes
>>Date: 12 Apr 1994 14:30:35 GMT
>Deleted ...
>>BUT, write to the makers and distributors of the movie.
>>As a matter of fact I'd bet letters from hundreds of
>>misc.kidders saying we will NOT spend our hard earned money
>>on so-called "entertainment" for our kids which
>>perpetuate racist and sexist stereotypes, might make
>>a difference. Copies of such letters sent to local papers
>>might make people think twice about taking their children,
>>hitting the film-makers and distributors where it hurts most,
>>their wallets.
>>If we can come up with nearly 200 people willing to organize a
>>photoalbum, surely we can get at least that many to write
>>a letter or two. We've got the meat of a pretty good letter
>>in Julia's message and her list of specific examples in the movie.
>>Julia, may we use your list in any letters we write?
>>So how about it. Can someone find out the names and addresses
>>of the film makers and distributors? And don't forget local papers.
>>Let's give the public more to think about than they'll find
>>just looking in the ads.
>>scott
Deleted sig. ( I didn't realize that it looked like the message ended here and
I certainly don't want it to look like I agree with what was written above ...)
Bill Gates
: In article <2oebab$4...@news.bu.edu> sco...@bu.edu (Scott Macomber) writes:
: >BUT, write to the makers and distributors of the movie.
: >misc.kidders saying we will NOT spend our hard earned money
: >on so-called "entertainment" for our kids which
: >perpetuate racist and sexist stereotypes, might make
: >a difference. Copies of such letters sent to local papers
: >might make people think twice about taking their children,
: >hitting the film-makers and distributors where it hurts most,
: >their wallets.
: I am not saying that Julia doesn't have some valid criticisms, but I think
: Scott's reaction to them scares me. He is willing to judge, and he wants
: everyone else to judge, something without first checking it out personally.
: It's this type of gung ho vigilante mentality that has caused books (and
: witches) to be burned, plays to be closed, movies to flop - when *sometimes*
: it's not merited.
: I have two youngsters. I had thought about taking them to see this movie and
: now I'm probably not going to. I can decide this for my family but I don't
: think I should be able to decide for yours.
I agree with you, Renate. In fact, as I sat here reading through the
responses to this thread, I had a hard time trying to envision making a
movie with any interesting plot at all WITHOUT something that *somebody*
would object to.
So, I open this up with a question: please explain how you'd make a movie,
complete with protagonists and antagonists, crimes, emotions, injustice,
etc. WITHOUT ticking somebody off.
Remember, reverse discrimination won't cut it. The movie would need to have
no discrimination at all. I find the task quite formidable.
For instance, you could say, "Well, let's make a female hero who needs no
male counsel or aid!" OK. I thought "Beauty and the Beast" did that rather
nicely - Belle was a very strong character. But they achieved it by putting
in a very stereotypical macho male. So some men could be offended. This
movie also had the three bimbos who kept hanging around the macho dude, so
some women could be offended.
Perhaps BATB is not a good example. I leave you with the challenge.
Bill
r...@american.edu
>
>So, I open this up with a question: please explain how you'd make a movie,
>complete with protagonists and antagonists, crimes, emotions, injustice,
>etc. WITHOUT ticking somebody off.
>
>Remember, reverse discrimination won't cut it. The movie would need to have
>no discrimination at all. I find the task quite formidable.
>
>For instance, you could say, "Well, let's make a female hero who needs no
>male counsel or aid!" OK. I thought "Beauty and the Beast" did that rather
>nicely - Belle was a very strong character. But they achieved it by putting
>in a very stereotypical macho male. So some men could be offended. This
>movie also had the three bimbos who kept hanging around the macho dude, so
>some women could be offended.
>
>Perhaps BATB is not a good example. I leave you with the challenge.
Interesting that Disney came up. They have been claiming that the
female characters in their animated movies are not the barbie dolls
they used to be. Ariel, Belle, and Jasmine all say they want to learn
more about the world, and to be stronger women, and yet they all
only achieve these objectives through men. Ariel says she wants to
go up to the wolrd above so she can learn, but the final scene is
her getting married. I would rather have seen her get a high school
diploma.
Not to mention the women are STILL very thin with large breasts.
--
Karen Prestemon
Susanne Stolcke
Jan Silbermann <j...@cs.tulane.edu> wrote:
>...... The stains are interesting looking, they look
>kind of metallic almost as if she had a filling.
>What could be causing this?
>Jan
My friend's older daughter has the same problem. She has metallic-greyish
small spots all over her teeth. It doesn't look very nice. Regular and
extended brushing seems to help a little bit but it never goes away completly.
The dentist said he doesn't know the cause (all the medication-related
reasons were out of question). He could clean the teeth with his machines but
doesn't know if it would last (probably not).
Now they found out that the father had the same "problem" with his first teeth.
With the second teeth now the stain isn't too bad, just looks like tartar and
he gets rid of it during his bi-annual teeth-cleaning at the dentist. When they
found out about the daughter's stains he even did't think about HIS teeth!
His mother made the connection.
I know, my post doesn't help you to get the problem solved but it should show
you that there are other people (children) with this problem!
Good luck - and when you find out about the reason, let me know!
Susanne (Mami to Patrick, 3.9 years and Oliver, 2.2 years)
--
Susanne Stolcke sto...@icsi.berkeley.edu
95a Edgecroft Rd., Kensington, CA 94707 (510) 528-1224
Julia Rodriguez
> : Y Much bleating drivel deleted.
> : Where are all the smilies?
> : Are you really serious Julia? Aha! Got it. Julia _Rodriguez_ .....
> : anti-latino film ...... is see.
> : If you were so 'shocked' at Thumbelina, (I can't believe I'm writing
> : this <g>) then don't for Christ's sake step outside your front door.
> : Sheesh.
> : Jamesy
> :
than finding anything specific in my opinion to disagree with. I
would be interested in hearing from people who SAW the movie but had
other opinions. After I got so irritated early in the movie I have to
say that everything after that looked bad to me.
I, also, was irritated that Thumbelina derived her self-image
completely from the opinions of others. That marriage was held as the
only option for a girl, particularly a small girl. Don't all our
daughters feel like small girls?
Actually, I hesitate almost everytime we go to a Disney movie. (We do
go to them, and even have Disney videos.) But I feel that the romantic
idea of a man coming along to solve all your problems and live happily
ever after is a poor one to teach to our youg people. Perhaps it is
this very romance that we all grew up on that leads to the high rate
of divorce today. (I am not pointing my finger at other divorced
people. I am divorced myself. I bought the romance myth hook, line,
and sinker. I cannot really say if a more realistic view would have
changed the course of my life.)
Anyone have any good video suggestions with a different ending than
"happily ever after wedding"? I'll start with _The Last Unicorn_.
The impact of tv and film is great. A couple of anecdotes from
friends of mine:
1) a friends daughter was sure that Wharf in Star Trek: Next
Generation must be a bad guy, because he looked different. Where
did she get this idea but from Disney movies. Cartoon bad guys
never look like "us". It took a lot of discussions and watching
the show to overcome that opinion.
2) a girl that thought (much to the horror of her mother) that women
couldn't be doctors. Mother talked to daughter, no avail. Mother
introduced daughter to women doctors in a hospital setting, no
avail. Finally, watching STNG again daughter says "Look Mom women
can be doctors" because she saw a woman doctor on the show.
I appreciate it when people pass on specifics about films that they
saw. It helps me to make up my mind about seeing them. Maybe you
don't have the same red flags as I do. It helps if we can share our
ideas without reproach.
--
Julia Rodriguez
June Stacey Cummins
Jamesy <SUK...@MVS.sas.com> wrote:
>It's a copy of a donkeys-years old, kiddies FAIRY STORY. Hello?
>All this PC (there I've said it now) crap about ban/change every pre
>nineties kids/fairy story to make it politically corr-bloody-ect is
>about the saddest part of the whole PC scene. I forget who and when
>Thumbelina was original written but I seriously doubt that enforcing
>a stereotypical sexist, racist, capitulating and discriminatory
>female image intended purely to bring down women in the eyes of the
>world and thus create a lower class of subservient people was the
Hello? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I think not.
First of all, the original poster never used the word "ban." Second
of all, what are you suggesting--that she is not entitled to her opinion?
That because something has always been a certain way makes it AOK? Have
you thought about this for more than two seconds? Linda's (sorry if
that wasn't her name) reaction to this movie had nothing to do with being
P.C. It was an honest reaction to something she found offensive from
both a race and sex point of view. Who are you to tell her that her feelings
are invalid?
>Get a life you people. There are _real_ things to worry about in the
>world. _Real_ dangers to educate children about.
No--you should get a brain. There is nothing unreal about worrying about
racist stereotypes. Perhaps you are not a member of an ethnic minority.
Perhaps you have never had to deal with being hated because you belong
to a certain ethnic group. Thos of us who have, or who sympathize
with those who have, know full well how dangerous it is to perpetuate
ethnic stereotypes, especially in children's media. Do you really think
children watch something like this and think "well, I know that people
with Spanish accents are not all bad and this is just one movie's angle
on the subject." Let's get real, shall we?
>Let's think a minute;
>Heroine (don't panic not the drug <g>) has ups and downs in her life
>happy and sad, on the edge of the abyss and the hero turns up to
>marry her, save the day and ride off into the sun-set. It just about
>describes every pantomime and fairy story ever written. Are you
>going to ban all those as well? Why not go the whole hog and torch
Let's just kick back and say "well, that's the way it is. No use trying
to change it." Ahh, how relaxing. And of course we know that no woman
has EVER been influenced by this type of story--no woman has ever waited
for her "prince" or made stupid mistakes because she was force-fed this
drivel all her life. Sorry to disappoint you, buddy, but it just isn't
so.
If you could stop yelling "p.c., p.c." for a minute and thought
about these issues I think you would see both the flaws in your "logic"
and the points being made about sexism and ethnic stereotyping.
June
Jamesy
dol...@ucsd.edu (Mark Dolson) writes:
>Jamesy (SUK...@MVS.sas.com) wrote:
>:
>: And don't forget to ignore the real world and that might go away
>: too.
>
>OK, I'll bite, what's your point? That there's racism in the world,
>so we should expose our children to it at every opportunity?
>
Why thankyou Laura. ;-)
My point is that the world is a jolly big place full of many
different cultures, beliefs and people. Morals, perceptions,
behaviour and such. The opinions expressed in the original post
while ,perhaps, ideologically attempting purity do not and, like it
or not, will never represent the views of everyone that a nipper
will meeet in it's life.
The way that us humans adapt to our enviroment is through _personal_
experience. We analyse the ensuing chaos and create a personal
idea of 'survival' which we can then compare with those of others.
I expect that most people have at some time in their lives had an
accident of some sort or another resulting purely from seeing whether
warning advice was correct or not. After that accident the personal
solution would hace been devised and the accident unlikely to
happen again.
Bleating on about racist, sexist movies is fine if that is what they
generically (sp?) are and were intended to be. Thumbelina is a
very old story written when views of the world were alot more
black and white. (Don't start frothing at the mouth PCers <g>)
The fact that a Latino accent was chosen for the characterisation
is hardly grounds for hysteria. If so, why don't us Brits start
crying our eyes out every time we hear a stereotypical American
phoney English accent?
The answer, and I'm going to get flamed to hell and back for this
one ;-), is that only certain races have had it hammered into them
by do-gooding PCers that they are unequal minorities and should
therefore view every situation that effects them as some form of
discrimination. I'm not saying that racial discrimination does not
exist, but there's a world of difference between a group of
neo-nazis killing a Pakistani and Peter Sellers stereotyped 'Goodness
gracious me' character.
Spend too much time ignoring ill-perceived and self-inflicted
discrimination, and the real stuff will sneak up and smack you in
the gob.
Trust that explains it for you. ;-)
Jamesy
r...@american.edu () writes:
They are stylised kiddies stories based on fairy tales, not
non-fiction adult education. They're fun!!!!!! They make you laugh,
they make you cry they make you happy when good triumphs over evil
and the hero marries the heroine.
Please, please lighten up Karen. So the heroine is thin with big
boobs. The hero's built like a brick shit-house with biceps like
sacks of potatoes. It's called a caricature (probably spelt wrong).
That's why they're cartoons not films.
Dear Mickey Mouse, Why don't you make a film about a completely
normal family, in a completely normal house, leading completely
normal lives, with completely normal people as the players. Yours,
A.N.Idealist.
Now I don't think that that's going to sweep the box-offices is it.
Trif
>So how about it. Can someone find out the names and addresses
>of the film makers and distributors? And don't forget local papers.
>Let's give the public more to think about than they'll find
>just looking in the ads.
I'm in, but I think I'd like a little more confirmation before I shoot
off a letter. Nothing personal to the original poster, but I have
seen people waltz into newsgroups with less than honorable intent
before, and I don't recognize the name as that of a misc.kids regular.
Trif
Jamesy <SUK...@MVS.sas.com> wrote:
>It's a copy of a donkeys-years old, kiddies FAIRY STORY. Hello?
>All this PC (there I've said it now) crap about ban/change every pre
>nineties kids/fairy story to make it politically corr-bloody-ect is
>about the saddest part of the whole PC scene. I forget who and when
>Thumbelina was original written but I seriously doubt that enforcing
>a stereotypical sexist, racist, capitulating and discriminatory
>female image intended purely to bring down women in the eyes of the
>world and thus create a lower class of subservient people was the
Get real. No one here is talking about *banning* the movie or getting
the government involved in any way. We are talking about informing
the makers of this movie of our objections and our intent not to
support this kind of stuff with our money. We are talking about
informing other people about the content of this movie. Nobody is
applying any coercion here. The plot of the story doesn't need to
be changed to make this into a reasonable movie to see. The producers
took liberties with the characterizations that are objectionable to
a lot of people. I doubt the original poster would have taken her
child to see Thumbelina if she objected to the basic story about
Thumbelina.
>Get a life you people. There are _real_ things to worry about in the
>world. _Real_ dangers to educate children about.
>Let's think a minute;
>Heroine (don't panic not the drug <g>) has ups and downs in her life
>happy and sad, on the edge of the abyss and the hero turns up to
>marry her, save the day and ride off into the sun-set. It just about
>describes every pantomime and fairy story ever written. Are you
>going to ban all those as well? Why not go the whole hog and torch
>the church hall at christmas time for portraying these evil images
>in Panto? Fire bomb bookstores for carrying fairy tales as well, eh.
>'Sorry citizen, but I have to kill you. It's the only way to protect my
>daughter from your propoganda.'
Geez, Jamesy, I think *you* need to get a life. You're blowing the
responses here as much out of proportion as you are accusing people
of blowing the movie out of proportion.
amy uhrbach
>Her teeth are not decayed, they are stained. The dentist and I were
>at a loss to figure out why. She doesn't drink juice or formula,
>the vitamins didn't do it, her anti-convlusants aren't supposed to
>have done that. The stains are interesting looking, they look
>kind of metallic almost as if she had a filling.
>What could be causing this?
Assuming they're baby teeth, it could be something that happened early in the
pregnancy while the teeth were forming. Alex has white stains in his front
teeth, and that seems to be the explanation. If so, this should have NO
effect on permanent teeth, which form later.
-Amy
Jamesy
js...@ciao.cc.columbia.edu (June Stacey Cummins) writes:
>In article <1994041304...@MVS.sas.com>,
>Jamesy <SUK...@MVS.sas.com> wrote:
>Hello? Do you have any idea what you are talking about? I think not.
>First of all, the original poster never used the word "ban." Second
action pertaining to the banning of the film.
>of all, what are you suggesting--that she is not entitled to her opinion?
>That because something has always been a certain way makes it AOK? Have
>you thought about this for more than two seconds? Linda's (sorry if
>that wasn't her name) reaction to this movie had nothing to do with being
>P.C. It was an honest reaction to something she found offensive from
>both a race and sex point of view. Who are you to tell her that her feelings
>are invalid?
>
>>Get a life you people. There are _real_ things to worry about in the
>>world. _Real_ dangers to educate children about.
>
>No--you should get a brain. There is nothing unreal about worrying about
>racist stereotypes. Perhaps you are not a member of an ethnic minority.
>Perhaps you have never had to deal with being hated because you belong
>to a certain ethnic group. Thos of us who have, or who sympathize
>with those who have, know full well how dangerous it is to perpetuate
>ethnic stereotypes, especially in children's media. Do you really think
>children watch something like this and think "well, I know that people
>with Spanish accents are not all bad and this is just one movie's angle
>on the subject." Let's get real, shall we?
national pride.
Are you telling me that everyone in the world thinks that Mexicans
speak like Speedy Gonzales and look like the bad guys out of the
Magnificent Seven? I think not.
>
>Let's just kick back and say "well, that's the way it is. No use trying
>to change it." Ahh, how relaxing. And of course we know that no woman
>has EVER been influenced by this type of story--no woman has ever waited
>for her "prince" or made stupid mistakes because she was force-fed this
>drivel all her life. Sorry to disappoint you, buddy, but it just isn't
>so.
assumptions so late in the post. If someone wants to make a PC kids
film, then don't base it on a non-PC kids fairy story. There, that
wasn't too hard was it? Sorry to disappoint you too but I can't see
a future generation of abused and down-trodden women based on the
efforts of Thumbelina. Perhaps these discriminated masses should try
creating their own self-esteem rather than blaming all their
short-commings on the world against them.
>
>If you could stop yelling "p.c., p.c." for a minute and thought
>about these issues I think you would see both the flaws in your "logic"
>and the points being made about sexism and ethnic stereotyping.
>
helping you understand this flawed logic. Perhaps it wouldn't be
quite so flawed to you if you read what I actually write and don't
read what you want me to have written.
Dan Breslau
wrote:
>
> In article <danb-130...@158.234.144.110>,
> da...@corp.logica.com (Dan Breslau) writes:
>
> >In article <1994041304...@MVS.sas.com>, SUK...@MVS.sas.com (Jamesy)
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >> Get a life you people.
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >I'm amazed at how often the folks who give this advice are the ones who
> >most desparately need to follow it.
> >
> >We now return you to your regular flame fest, already in progress.
> >
>
> I don't normally respond to jibes like this one but....
> Consider a 'complete' life. One does everything, believes everything
> and likes everything etc. Got the picture? Completely and utterly
> full. Everything that one then excludes from ones life must therefore
> reduce it. So each picky little PC piece of rubbish that prevents
> one from welcoming an aspect of life into oneself with open arms
> reduces the overall quantity of life itself, until one ends up a
> crabby, paranoid squealer, too scared to do anything or go
> anywhere for fright of offending others or being offended oneself.
> Therefore, get a life.
Thank you for illustrating my point so well. You see, you clearly do not
follow the philosophy you preach. If you did, you would not react so
emotionally to what you call "PC...rubbish"; instead, you might have enough
heart in you to consider rationally that perhaps there is a valid point
behind
the original poster's words. If you had considered it rationally, and then
disagreed, I doubt your conclusion would have been that someone needs to
"get a life".
You seem to think that offending the original poster is OK because she
stepped
on some values you hold dear. Do you not see that she was offended because
"Thumbelina" stepped on some values she held dear? And yet she made no
offsense against any individual; the same can not be said of you.
MaryBeth Delphia
. stuff deleted..
>Bleating on about racist, sexist movies is fine if that is what they
>generically (sp?) are and were intended to be. Thumbelina is a
>very old story written when views of the world were alot more
>black and white. (Don't start frothing at the mouth PCers <g>)
>The fact that a Latino accent was chosen for the characterisation
>is hardly grounds for hysteria. If so, why don't us Brits start
>crying our eyes out every time we hear a stereotypical American
>phoney English accent?
I like to take my 4 yr old to the movies but I think I'll skip this one from
the comments I've read. I'm not completely against sterereotyping in
entertainment because we should be able to poke fun and laugh at
our own falabilities. HOWEVER, when it is almost completely one
sided and used to perpetuate negative values, and when it is directed
towards children who completely absorb it without being able to
evaluate it, then I think it is wrong.
>The answer, and I'm going to get flamed to hell and back for this
>one ;-), is that only certain races have had it hammered into them
>by do-gooding PCers that they are unequal minorities and should
>therefore view every situation that effects them as some form of
>discrimination. I'm not saying that racial discrimination does not
>exist, but there's a world of difference between a group of
>neo-nazis killing a Pakistani and Peter Sellers stereotyped 'Goodness
>gracious me' character.
Yes there is a world of difference at the beggining, but when one can
lead to the other, isn't it better to stop it early? The Holocaust, the
problems in South Africa because of decades of apartheid, etc,
unfortunately history is full of examples of the deadliness of racial
and ethnic hatred.
One excellent documentary I saw several years ago was 'Brown Eyes,
Blue Eyes' (I think, it was years ago). It was about grade school
children in a mid-western state who went through an 'experiment' of
sorts to teach them about racism. These were all white children who
the teacher divided into two groups of blue eyed children, and brown
eyed children. The first week the blue eyed kids were favored, viewed
to be superior, etc. initially first by their teacher, but the kids soon picked
up on it enough that in the playground they were cruel and mean to the
brown eyed kids. The second week things were reversed. As adults we
might think that the brown eyed kids now would have some understanding
of what it felt like to have been stepped on and be nicer, but no they were
just as cruel and revelled in their roles as the superior children. At the end
of the two weeks they talked about it and things went back to normal. In
tracking those children later in life I believe they showed that the children
who went through this experiment were more accepting of others and less
apt to be racist. Even if the result wasn't exactly that, it was interesting
because it really showed you how easily children pick up on their parents,
and peers values and racists views and incorporate them into their own.
anyway, just my 2 cents worth.
MaryBeth
>Spend too much time ignoring ill-perceived and self-inflicted
>discrimination, and the real stuff will sneak up and smack you in
>the gob.
>Trust that explains it for you. ;-)
>
>Jamesy
>--
>+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
>& &
>& KDJ - SUK...@MVS.SAS.COM &
>& 'CIVILISE ENGLAND'S LICENCING LAWS.... ' &
>& &
>& ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN. AND I'M PROUD TO &
>& ADMIT IT TOO. &
>& &
>+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Jamesy
d...@u.washington.edu (Trif) writes:
>In article <1994041304...@mvs.sas.com>,
>Jamesy <SUK...@MVS.sas.com> wrote:
>>It's a copy of a donkeys-years old, kiddies FAIRY STORY. Hello?
>
>the government involved in any way. We are talking about informing
>the makers of this movie of our objections and our intent not to
>support this kind of stuff with our money. We are talking about
>informing other people about the content of this movie. Nobody is
>applying any coercion here. The plot of the story doesn't need to
>be changed to make this into a reasonable movie to see. The producers
>took liberties with the characterizations that are objectionable to
>a lot of people. I doubt the original poster would have taken her
>child to see Thumbelina if she objected to the basic story about
>Thumbelina.
the 'racial discrimination' but to the 'sexist portrayal of females'.
In fact, after her second post it is possible that the storyline
'shocked' her more than the characterization.
>
>>Get a life you people. There are _real_ things to worry about in the
>>world. _Real_ dangers to educate children about.
>>Let's think a minute;
>>Heroine (don't panic not the drug <g>) has ups and downs in her life
>>happy and sad, on the edge of the abyss and the hero turns up to
>>marry her, save the day and ride off into the sun-set. It just about
>>describes every pantomime and fairy story ever written. Are you
>>going to ban all those as well? Why not go the whole hog and torch
>>the church hall at christmas time for portraying these evil images
>>in Panto? Fire bomb bookstores for carrying fairy tales as well, eh.
>>'Sorry citizen, but I have to kill you. It's the only way to protect my
>>daughter from your propoganda.'
>
>Geez, Jamesy, I think *you* need to get a life. You're blowing the
>responses here as much out of proportion as you are accusing people
>of blowing the movie out of proportion.
>
>
Jamesy
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
¦ ¦
¦ KDJ - SUK...@MVS.SAS.COM ¦
¦ ¦
¦ ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED ARE ENTIRELY MY OWN. AND I'M PROUD TO ¦
¦ ADMIT IT TOO. ¦
¦ ¦
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
r...@american.edu
Jamesy <SUK...@MVS.sas.com> wrote:
>They are stylised kiddies stories based on fairy tales, not
>non-fiction adult education. They're fun!!!!!! They make you laugh,
>they make you cry they make you happy when good triumphs over evil
>and the hero marries the heroine.
>Please, please lighten up Karen. So the heroine is thin with big
>boobs. The hero's built like a brick shit-house with biceps like
>sacks of potatoes. It's called a caricature (probably spelt wrong).
>That's why they're cartoons not films.
Uh, excuse me, Sir, but it was the Disney company's assertion that
they were going to change the way women and girls were traditionally
portrayed in their films. I did not make that contention, their
PR people did, and it is my opinion that they are falling flat on
their faces.
The Disney people want to have a reputation for being multicultural.
They want to be known as caring, non-sexist and non-racist. And yet,
the women are still portrayed as needing men to fulfill their dreams.
That is my problem. If the Disney company never tried to make any
such claims to be more progressive in their story-telling, then I
wouldn't be saying anything.
--
Karen Prestemon
Ken Hovanes
> A few years ago I lived in a Hispanic community,
>and became friends with many of my neighbors. One summer
>the building had a roach problem, and I was talking about
>killing them, making roach voices "Aiiieeeeeee!! You
>got me" "You keeled my seester!" I was using a really
>cheesy Mexican accent, and my neighbors were VERY offended.
Might I say, you were just being funny. What bugs the hell
out of me, is the sensitivity level everyone seems to be
living at.
Geez, get a grip people.
I remember one prime example.
Ann Landers printed a story about the horrors of not having
any children.
It was a humorous attempt to make light of all of us who don't
have children yet. It talked about being able to jet off to
Europe, having dinner whenever you wanted, not worrying about
your daughters first date, just lots of things like that.
It was just a humorous article.
Anyway, she got mail from childless households, asking hwo she
could be so insensitive.
IT WAS JUST A FUNNY STORY ABOUT MARRIED COUPLES WITHOUT CHILDREN.
If you cannot for one second step back and look for the humor in
the article, then hold on, cause your life is gonna suck.
If people cannot take responsibility for their own actions,
then the country is really going to go in the toilet. It's always
this, "Hey! That offends ME! Hey, that's not funny.", and that "Watch
out, you might hurt someones feelings."
Well, I think this attitude of Political Correctness/Don't Hurt anyone's
feelings leads to the famous LCD.
WE REACH THE LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATIOR.
Why?
Because we act like we can't help ourselves. And I'm sick of it. I for
one, can help myself. And I don't care to hear people bitching about
how insensitive I am, because I'm not. I love my girlfriend very much,
I love my parents, and I love all my family. BUT FOR GOD SAKES, EVERYBODY
REALLY NEEDS TO LIGHTEN UP.
> I was not brought up to be racist at all, but as
>a child, the small vermin in cartoons always had Mexican
>accents. So without even thinking, I used a very bigoted
>racial stereotype.
Well, I wasn't brought up racist. My fathers parents were from
Eastern Europe, and my mother is from New Zealand. BUT YOU WERE
JUST BEING SILLY. GOOD GRIEF.
> I think that silly cartoons stick in your head
>far into adulthood, and racial stereotypes can be buried
>underneath and crop up. This can make people, unknowingly
>but still offensively say things that are cruel.
I watched the 3 Stooges all through my childhood, but I don't
beat the crap out of someone who disagrees with me. And I
sincerely doubt you made the mental choice to associate the
Mexican Accent with cockroaches.
It could have been from "Scarface", where he says in his heavy
Cuban drawl... "Hesa Cock-a-roach."
Or it could have come from the song Cookarocha (sp), or maybe even
from Taco Bell (where they have more than enough cockroaches to
justify the accent.)
I myself associate cockroaches with tiny squeaky voices, like...
a mother-in-law. Incredibly irritating, and it's always there.
The point is, just be yourself. The effort to act like someone you
are not, modifying behavior because you MIGHT offend someone, and
trying not to offend by being politically correct is completely
assinine.
> There are so many blatant attacks on minorities
>that we should try to stamp out the subtle ones, because
>they are more easily corrected, and might lead fewer
>people to commit racism or lead to thinking that minorities
>though it is wrong to hate them, it is ok to mock them.
You're probably from the same group who thinks that the editing
of cartoons for the violent scenes will help children. Well, if
you are. I think you are an idiot. You try watching one of these
green cartoons like "Captain Planet", and it's filled with violence,
but it's modified to make the kids think they won't possibly get hurt
if they try it. In addition, it gives kids the idea that some
superhero will be around to get the bad guys, when in reality, the
only person to make a differance will be himself/herself.
Why don't you get a grasp. Act like an adult, not a child in a playground.
Running to the teacher (government), and screaming.
"HE hit me! Protect me! I'm not intelligent enough to form my own
conclusions. Help me! I need guidance. I can't think for myself."
Ken "Sick of the Stupidity" Hovanes
Jamesy
jul...@cup.hp.com (Julia Rodriguez) writes:
>> Jamesy (SUK...@MVS.sas.com) wrote:
>It seems that Jamesy is denying my right to have an opinion, rather
>than finding anything specific in my opinion to disagree with. I
>would be interested in hearing from people who SAW the movie but had
>
>
Sorry for chopping the text but it gets tedious paging for new posts.
Julia, it seems to me that you have got a definite downer on this
whole situation that you are manifesting in your hate of Disney
exploitation. Even your very first sentence;
'It seems that Jamesy is denying my right to have an opinion..'
reeks of poor self-esteem and an expectation to be derided or
put down. Rather than embark on a crusade to make kiddies programs
ideologically correct in _your_ eyes, perhaps your time and the
help of this group could be better put to helping you with whatever
has caused this problem.
Before anyone starts on the 'you patronising #(*¢%' flames, that was
a sincere post. Read what you want into it, but I don't mind sticking
my neck out to offer help to a fellow netter.
Jean Jasinski
: Her teeth are not decayed, they are stained. The dentist and I were
: at a loss to figure out why. She doesn't drink juice or formula,
: the vitamins didn't do it, her anti-convlusants aren't supposed to
: have done that. The stains are interesting looking, they look
: kind of metallic almost as if she had a filling.
: What could be causing this?
: Jan
There is a dental condition known as dentinogenesis imperfecta in which
the dentin is formed incorrectly. This can lead to opalescent colored
teeth, yellowish, or even brownish colored teeth. Since the dentin
is formed incorrectly, the enamel flakes off. So what you are seeing
is indeed the inside (dentin) of the tooth. Sometimes the teeth
are brittle and wear down as well over time (chewing surfaces on molars)
but it is also the case that sometimes the teeth are strong. If Ellie
has DI, then all off her teeth would be affected; the front ones more so
for baby teeth (the back ones more so for permanent teeth). In both
primary and secondary teeth, DI affects the teeth that come in first
more severely. Ask your dentist to consider dentinogenesis imperfecta
as a diagnosis if s/he is familiar with DI. DI can be severe and it
can be mild, but the severer cases are what's shown in textbooks.
If only a couple of teeth are stained, then it is possible that injested
flouride (either from vitamins OR from swallowing toothpaste) could have
stained the teeth.
Jean Jasinski
Merle Finch
In article <2oent1$p...@news.cs.tulane.edu>, j...@cs.tulane.edu (Jan Silbermann) writes:
:Well, I took Ellie to the dentist today. She did really well. She
:opened her mouth up nice and wide. We didn't even have to
:prompt her, one look at those dental tools and it was WIDE open.
:
:Her teeth are not decayed, they are stained. The dentist and I were
:at a loss to figure out why. She doesn't drink juice or formula,
:the vitamins didn't do it, her anti-convlusants aren't supposed to
:have done that. The stains are interesting looking, they look
:kind of metallic almost as if she had a filling.
:What could be causing this?
:Jan
My daughter's teeth are stained from the fluoride drops the pediatrician
pushed on us when she was an infant. Our dentist says they will fade with
time. Poly-vi-fluor is the stuff we used.
Merle
--
Merle Finch me...@sas.com SAS Institute Inc, SAS Campus Dr, Cary NC 27513-2414.
Vicki Powers
I just have to jump in here and speak up for the Disney folks --
they did NOT make this movie, it's a Don Bluth effort (formally
employed by Disney, now independent). By all accounts his movies
are far, far below Disney standards.
And now back to our regularly scheduled flame-fest...
--
Vicki Powers | When a student reads in a math book that there are no
Emory University | absolutes, suddenly every value he's been taught is
Dept of Math and CS | destroyed. And the next thing you know, the student
Atlanta, GA 30322 | turns to crime and drugs. - Mel Gabler
June Stacey Cummins
Jamesy <SUK...@MVS.sas.com> wrote:
>>of all, what are you suggesting--that she is not entitled to her opinion?
>
>I don't rmember saying that.
>
>>That because something has always been a certain way makes it AOK? Have
>Or that.
Sorry, Jamesy, but you made this assertion over and over again. You
repeatedly said "but it's an old fairy tale and that's the way it is"
--maybe not those exact same words, but you conveyed that exact same
meaning. I remember the phrase "donkey's-old fairy tale" followed by
the suggestion that these movies have always been this way.
>>both a race and sex point of view. Who are you to tell her that her feelings
>>are invalid?
>
>Hmmmm. Don't remember doing that either.
You may not remember it, but you certainly said it. By screaming that
her opinions were P.C. tripe and unworthy, you were invalidating her
perspective. You didn't say anything like "I realize you have had
a different reaction than mine, but I want to share my way of looking
at this." You just denied everything she was saying.
>>ethnic stereotypes, especially in children's media. Do you really think
>>children watch something like this and think "well, I know that people
>>with Spanish accents are not all bad and this is just one movie's angle
>>on the subject." Let's get real, shall we?
>
>_Everyone_ in the world suffers from racial abuse, it's the result of
>national pride.
>Are you telling me that everyone in the world thinks that Mexicans
>speak like Speedy Gonzales and look like the bad guys out of the
>Magnificent Seven? I think not.
Umm, excuse me, but yes, I think that certain racial stereotypes are
seen as true by a majority of people. Many studies have demonstrated
that. Think about the stereotype of the fundamentalist Muslim. I'm
sure that most people are not aware that most Muslims do not fit
this stereotype.
>>Let's just kick back and say "well, that's the way it is. No use trying
>>to change it." Ahh, how relaxing. And of course we know that no woman
>>has EVER been influenced by this type of story--no woman has ever waited
>>for her "prince" or made stupid mistakes because she was force-fed this
>>drivel all her life. Sorry to disappoint you, buddy, but it just isn't
>>so.
>
>I don't remember saying that either, but why break the thread of your
>assumptions so late in the post. If someone wants to make a PC kids
>film, then don't base it on a non-PC kids fairy story. There, that
>wasn't too hard was it? Sorry to disappoint you too but I can't see
>a future generation of abused and down-trodden women based on the
>efforts of Thumbelina. Perhaps these discriminated masses should try
>creating their own self-esteem rather than blaming all their
>short-commings on the world against them.
I made no assumptions--you implied or said everything I credited you
as implying or saying. I agree with you that making movies based on
sexist and racist assumptions will inevitably be racist and sexist to
a cetain degree. But how are we supposed to change that? We are not
filmmakers--we are consumers. Consumers have every right to voice
grievances when they have them. Things don't change by shrugging our
shoulders and keeping our opinions to ourselves.
Not once have I seen anyone "blame their shortcomings on the world
around them" during this thread. Your statement really makes me
wonder what you think about people who are not just like you. Here,
I am admittedly "assuming" something you have not said--but I think
you need to think twice before writing a sentence like that in order
to avoid having your readers make such an assumption.
>I hope that this and my subsequent posts today will go some way to
>helping you understand this flawed logic. Perhaps it wouldn't be
>quite so flawed to you if you read what I actually write and don't
>read what you want me to have written.
Believe me, I read every word and I stand by what I said you said.
I think you are the one who needs to be more attentive to the words
running out of your mouth. And btw, I have studied and taught logic
and rhetoric at the college level, and I think I am somewhat qualified
to evaluate the logical structure of a piece of writing such as yours.
June
Jamesy
da...@corp.logica.com (Dan Breslau) writes:
>In article <1994041311...@MVS.sas.com>, SUK...@MVS.sas.com (Jamesy)
>wrote:
>>
>> In article <danb-130...@158.234.144.110>,
>> da...@corp.logica.com (Dan Breslau) writes:
>>
>> >In article <1994041304...@MVS.sas.com>, SUK...@MVS.sas.com (Jamesy)
>follow the philosophy you preach. If you did, you would not react so
>emotionally to what you call "PC...rubbish"; instead, you might have enough
>heart in you to consider rationally that perhaps there is a valid point
>behind
>the original poster's words. If you had considered it rationally, and then
>disagreed, I doubt your conclusion would have been that someone needs to
>"get a life".
>
>You seem to think that offending the original poster is OK because she
>stepped
>on some values you hold dear. Do you not see that she was offended because
>"Thumbelina" stepped on some values she held dear? And yet she made no
>offsense against any individual; the same can not be said of you.
>
dialect. If you really read my post that you have so kindly seen fit
to reply to you'll recall the concept of narrowing the multitude of
the channels of life. Everything that PC preaches is based upon
negativity. ie You _mustn't_ do that and you _can't_ say this etc.
At no stage have I derided the principle that Julia is entitled to
her opinion, only the opinion that was stated. That's called a
different point of view. The reason that I react so 'emotionally' to
PC is that I enjoy a life of freedom of thought, action and speech
where each individual is responsible for their own life. If I am
having a crisis then I can regard it philosophically as a learning
experience. If I am insulted either literally or perceptually then I
recognise the cause and try not to visit the situation again.
What I don't do is try and shoulder my burdens on 'them', 'the world'
or my environment. If I am mortally offended by something then I
don't expose myself to it again. What upsets me pleases others and
vice versa and I am honest enough not to be so pretentious as to
demand that things be banned or changed (that others enjoy) just
because I don't. It would be nice if others were that way too.
And before the clever dick's leap to their keyboards please note
my disclaimer;
_WITHIN_THE_LAW_
Jamesy
js...@konichiwa.cc.columbia.edu (June Stacey Cummins) writes:
>In article <1994041405...@MVS.sas.com>,
>Jamesy <SUK...@MVS.sas.com> wrote:
>>>of all, what are you suggesting--that she is not entitled to her opinion?
>
>June
June old fruit. Imply, imply imply. I _do_not_ deal in implications.
What I write, I mean _literally_. If you're not used to people
calling a spade a spade then so be it. It's probably fun trying to
read things into stuff in order to fuel an argument. I see a point
of view, I disagree and post my point of view. As such then, I'm
afraid, your marvellous qualifications are a tad wasted on my stuff.
I'll try to live up to you in the future and riddle my posts with
implied meanings and cross-opinions.
Re:- Your bit about 'that's the way it's always been' etc. I've never
said that in the manner that _you_ implied. What I said was that
_Thumbelina_ (the single fairy story) is a 'donkeys-years old' story
written in a 'donkeys-years old' style. If you want to write a
PC piece that shares none of the devilish attributes of the
_Thumbelina_ story, then you don't base it on _Thumbelina_ and you
don't call it _Thumbelina_. Simple.
In answer to your what can we do then? Why not use the energy being
driven into moaning at film companies (negative) into asking film
to produce more _original_ films (positive). Simple again!
Those last few lines BTW illustrate my radical ideas about stop
spending so much time doing negative stuff and start spending some
time doing positive happy stuff. My god! What an idealist I'm
turning out to be! ;-)
Ever the straight-forward. (Sorry June but...)
Jamesy
khov...@b30news.b30.ingr.com (Ken Hovanes) writes:
>In article <Co6t8...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> jesc...@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (jesse scott campbell) writes:
>
>> A few years ago I lived in a Hispanic community,
>
>"HE hit me! Protect me! I'm not intelligent enough to form my own
>conclusions. Help me! I need guidance. I can't think for myself."
>
>Ken "Sick of the Stupidity" Hovanes
how the world really is out there. ;-)
Mark Dolson
>I forget who and when
>Thumbelina was original written
Hans Christian Anderson (1805-1875). Although
the original was no model of roles for women, I assure you that the
sinister Spanish characters (frogs?) have been added for this movie.
Jamesy (SUK...@MVS.sas.com) wrote:
: In article <2ogue4$2...@network.ucsd.edu>,
: dol...@ucsd.edu (Mark Dolson) writes:
:
: >Jamesy (SUK...@MVS.sas.com) wrote:
: >:
: >: And don't forget to ignore the real world and that might go away
: >: too.
: >
: >OK, I'll bite, what's your point? That there's racism in the world,
: >so we should expose our children to it at every opportunity?
: >
:
: Why thankyou Laura. ;-)
Sigh. I TRIED not to, really I did! ;-) And I've put off answering
this, since I haven't experienced you as someone who listens well,
but here goes:
: My point is that the world is a jolly big place full of many
: different cultures, beliefs and people. Morals, perceptions,
: behaviour and such. The opinions expressed in the original post
: while ,perhaps, ideologically attempting purity do not and, like it
: or not, will never represent the views of everyone that a nipper
: will meeet in it's life.
That wasn't her point, though.
I really, really don't understand what your problem is. Julia posted
some imformation about a movie which she thought, very rightly, that
others of us would be interested in. Some of us, when looking for
media for our children, prefer to select ones that don't perpetuate
damaging stereotypes. And no, it isn't so much any one movie or book.
It's when there is a pervasive pattern. Have you ever tried to find
a video with strong female characters? It's darn hard! I don't
want Emily to see ONLY movies with strong, positive female characters -
after all, there are all kinds of people in the world. BUT, it would
be nice to present a balance.
: The way that us humans adapt to our enviroment is through _personal_
: experience. We analyse the ensuing chaos and create a personal
: idea of 'survival' which we can then compare with those of others.
: I expect that most people have at some time in their lives had an
: accident of some sort or another resulting purely from seeing whether
: warning advice was correct or not. After that accident the personal
: solution would hace been devised and the accident unlikely to
: happen again.
Yes, I agree that personal experience is the best teacher. But we
also learn a LOT "vicariously" - through observing others, both
real and fictional. Luckily, we don't have to make all possible mistakes
to learn!
: Bleating on about racist, sexist movies is fine if that is what they
: generically (sp?) are and were intended to be. Thumbelina is a
: very old story written when views of the world were alot more
: black and white. (Don't start frothing at the mouth PCers <g>)
: The fact that a Latino accent was chosen for the characterisation
: is hardly grounds for hysteria.
This is where I feel you're missing the point. It wouldn't be a concern
IF it hadn't happened over and over and over. I don't expect every
film/book to show every character in a positive light. I do hope,
eventually, for some balance, which is not yet present. And don't
start putting the word "ban" on me like you did with Julia. I'm not
advocating banning anything, but I LOVE exchanging information that
will help me make decisions about what my daughter is exposed to.
: The answer, and I'm going to get flamed to hell and back for this
: one ;-), is that only certain races have had it hammered into them
: by do-gooding PCers that they are unequal minorities and should
: therefore view every situation that effects them as some form of
: discrimination.
I think the civil rights movement and the women's movements had caught
on long before "PC" became the insult of the decade.
I'm not saying that racial discrimination does not
: exist, but there's a world of difference between a group of
: neo-nazis killing a Pakistani and Peter Sellers stereotyped 'Goodness
: gracious me' character.
This relates to an interesting conversation I had recently with an
Iranian friend. He is very much behind the feminist movement in Iran -
in fact, he lives here and publishes and translates feminist Iranian
books and writings. But he is very anti-feminist in this country,
because he feels the movement has "spun out of control" and is attacking
the small details that are of no consequence. I think that this is
what the backlash is all about. It's OK to want equal pay for equal
work, but when you start looking at more subtle forms of discrimination
it calls into question too much of everyday thinking that is more
difficult to change because it is more subtle and pervasive. But it
truly does have an effect. If you think that children growing up
seeing patterns of characterizations based on gender or race don't
have an effect, I'm sorry, but your head is in the sand.
: Trust that explains it for you. ;-)
Yes, thanks, I understand where you're coming from. I don't agree, though!
--
Laura Dolson
dol...@crl.ucsd.edu
Jan Penovich
>
> Hi Julia,
>
> I was shocked to read your message, because it's hard to believe there's
> a _new_ movie for children full of such nasty stereotypes!
>
> But I really wasn't prepared for the ignorant drivel from "Jamesy"
> My only suggestions are the obvious: ignore him.
That is the best advice.
>
> BUT, write to the makers and distributors of the movie.
Also a good idea for Julia.
> As a matter of fact I'd bet letters from hundreds of
> misc.kidders saying we will NOT spend our hard earned money
> on so-called "entertainment" for our kids which
> perpetuate racist and sexist stereotypes, might make
> a difference. Copies of such letters sent to local papers
> might make people think twice about taking their children,
> hitting the film-makers and distributors where it hurts most,
> their wallets.
[stuff about using Julia's posting as a base for the letter deleted]
Hmm. You're saying that a whole bunch of us who have not
seen the movie should write protest letters based on the
opinion of one person who saw the movie? Come on.
Maybe the movie is racist and sexist. I don't know, I
haven't seen it. But I'm certainly not going to voice an
opinion on it without seeing it.
Scott, have you seen the movie?
********************************************************************
TTFN, * jpen...@encore.com
jan penovich
* Encore Computer Corp.
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