my son wears girl clothes, should i allow it
eva thomas
My 7 year old son often wears girl clothes. What should i do?
He started wearing his sisters clothes when playing house and i
didn't see any harm in this. later on he started wearing them
also when he wasn't playing house. Because i didn't want him to
ruin his sisters clothes i gave him her old dresses, skirts,
nightgowns etc. Now when he comes home from school he rushes up
to his room and puts on his girl clothes. He won't take them off
until he goes to bed (he sleeps in a nightgown).
I tried to stop him wearing girl clothes but nothing would help.
When i force him in boy clothes or i hide his girl clothes he
starts to yell or cry for hours. I gave him many boy things and
he has several boy friends to play whith (and who accept him in
his girl clothes).
during my holliday he will stay for six weeks with his aunt.
I fear that if i don't allow him to bring his girl clothes with
him that his aunt will get problems with him (crying, yelling or
stealing the clothes of his nieces). His aunt and nieces have seen
him in girl clothes but i don't think she fully realises what it
means when he lives with them. I also fear of the reactions of
other people. At home people saw him gradually picking up his habbit.
Shall i allow him to bring his girl clothes to his aunt?
At home he may wear girl clothes in and around the house,
at the playground, when he goes to some of his friends and when we
go out to people who accept him in his girl clothes.
Since he has there no safe playground or people who learned to accept
him, what should he be allowed? (his aunt can't keep him inside all the
time)
eva.
GI Trekker
eva thomas wrote:
>
> My 7 year old son often wears girl clothes. What should i do?>
Where's he getting the girls' clothes from? I'm sorry, but at this age I
cannot help but feel this is inappropriate and you should NOT allow it.
Granted, there's a lot of clothes for kids these days where it's kind of
hard to tell, but not ALL of them. Find out WHY he's doing it, and correct
him. If nothing else, he's just asking for trouble if he starts talking
about this -- habit -- at school. It needs to be stopped -- now.
Anne M. B. Peiffer
eva thomas wrote:
>
> My 7 year old son often wears girl clothes. What should i do?
outfits). Can you arrange a compromise?
>
> eva.
--
Anne M. B. Peiffer an...@mutley.mn.org
All moms work,
Some of us have jobs, too,
And a few of us actually get paid!
Danie AA
<< My 7 year old son often wears girl clothes. What should i do? >>
Eva,
I really wouldn't worry. At that age and younger, my little
brother wore my clothes, too. When my Grandma made
nightgowns for me, she'd make them for him, too. He was
doing it because he wanted to be more like me!
You say you're trying to get him to stop wearing girl's
clothes. Why is this?
My little brother is now a man of 21. No, he's not a
transvestite! He's a highly intelligent young man, a licensed
pilot, a great boyfriend to a sweet and gorgeous young lady...
AND a wonderful brother!
Danie
Danie AA
<< Where's he getting the girls' clothes from? I'm sorry, but at this age
I
cannot help but feel this is inappropriate and you should NOT allow it.
Granted, there's a lot of clothes for kids these days where it's kind of
hard to tell, but not ALL of them. Find out WHY he's doing it, and correct
him. If nothing else, he's just asking for trouble if he starts talking
about this -- habit -- at school. It needs to be stopped -- now. >>
Why do you feel so passionately about this? "Correct him"?
I don't think there's anything wrong with it, personally. How
is a 7-year-old child supposed to know about sex stereotypes
unless we teach them to them?
The original poster said that he's getting the clothes from his
sister. Don't you think this says something? :)
Danie
NikChick
dan...@aol.com (Danie AA) wonders about GITrekker's passion:
>>Why do you feel so passionately about this?<<
GITrekker is one of the strongly conservative and "traditional"
participants of m.k, so keep that in mind. He feels strongly about it
because of his overall worldview: masturbation is not normal and healthy
but is a symptom of our overly permissive society; boys should not wear
girls' clothes; the school-year should run from fall to spring, not
year-round, etc.
I'm not slamming his views, just pointing out where they are coming from.
One of the things about soliciting advice from the net is that so much of
it arrives without any sense of where it originates. At least with
regular participants, you can get a sense of how their advice fits in
their world-view.
Nicole
Mommy to Katherine Ellen, 8+ months
Ellen Siska
Not a good sign - check out the newsgroup alt.transgendered and you'll
hear of many instances where crossdressers/transexuals starting doing
that at an early age . . .
Good luck!
Ellen Siska
j...@sophia.inria.fr (Janet Bertot) wrote:
Well, with my first on-the-stomach was the mode of the day and
so he was on his stomach from day one. With the second, it was
an "on-the-side" mode, however, the little guy could not stand
to be on his side ... lots of screaming ... all sorts of little
jumping movements with the arms, etc. i figured he'd be happier
feeling something underneath him and at day two but him on his
stomach
--janet
Not a very wise decision. Tummy sleeping is a risk factor which should
not be overlooked. It is now documented that back sleeping is the
safest position for babies. Sure, your baby *probably* won't die of
SIDS, but if he does, you'll be dealing with the guilt and questions
about sleep position for the rest of your life . . . Do all you can to
reduce the risk!
Ellen Siska
In Loving Memory of Edward David Siska - 6/25/91 - 9/15/91 - SIDS
http://sids-network.org/
Ellen Siska
Anne M. B. Peiffer" <an...@mutley.mn.org> wrote:
--------------
She should be old enough to roll over by herself. That's when
I stopped worrying about my boy. Keep a monitor on her while
you are awake to reassure yourself she is okay. Otherwise, I
think she is fine. Many children sleep on their tummies and
do not give a rip what anyone says about it! :-)
--------------------
I presume when you say "keep a monitor on her while you are awake", you
are talking about the Fisher-Price type so that you can hear the baby in
the room? They are absolutely worthless when it comes to SIDS. We had
them and used them, and our son is dead. SIDS is a silent killer; there
is nothing to hear.
Back sleeping is the safest position; however, if your baby is old enough
to roll over, I don't suggest that you stay up all night watching
him/her. But when they're younger, back sleeping is the safest. Do all
you can to reduce the risk of SIDS!
Ellen Siska
In Loving Memory of Edward David Siska - 6/25/91 - 9/15/91 - SIDS
http://sids-network.org/
Janet Bertot
In article <3220AE...@netrax.net>, Ellen Siska <esi...@netrax.net> writes:
|> j...@sophia.inria.fr (Janet Bertot) wrote:
|> Well, with my first on-the-stomach was the mode of the day and
|> so he was on his stomach from day one. With the second, it was
|> an "on-the-side" mode, however, the little guy could not stand
|> to be on his side ... lots of screaming ... all sorts of little
|> jumping movements with the arms, etc. i figured he'd be happier
|> feeling something underneath him and at day two but him on his
|> stomach
|> Not a very wise decision. Tummy sleeping is a risk factor which should
|> not be overlooked. It is now documented that back sleeping is the
|> safest position for babies. Sure, your baby *probably* won't die of
|> SIDS, but if he does, you'll be dealing with the guilt and questions
|> about sleep position for the rest of your life . . . Do all you can to
|> reduce the risk!
i never said it was a *wise* decision, just one that *i* made given that he
really wouldn't stop screaming when place on side or back. i had read that
sometimes and for certain babies, without physical contact (chest against
the bed) then the baby is distressed due to the lack of sensory input.
And in fact, i just wanted to assure the original poster, L.S.Grob, who had
asked when misc.kidders had thrown up their hands, etc. Voila, mine was
just one of hundred experiences ... i never implied this is scientifically
recommendable approach, just when *i* threw *my* hands up since the baby
seemed so distraught. i know why the recommendation had changed in the
3 yrs between my sons' births. In life, we all must make decisions and
then assume the responsibilities. This is the way of the world.
regards
janet
Petri Kekkonen
: My 7 year old son often wears girl clothes. What should i do?
You haven't denied it which I think is good. It wouldn't solve
the "problem" if you can call it that.
Have you got any reasonable explanation from him why he likes
to wear girl clother so much? Does he feel that he would like
to be a girl? Has he shown interest for any girly things other
than clothes, jewelry for example? Does he like to dress up or
wear just casual clothes?
Or is it only that he likes the girl clothes, not being a girl?
Fetishes often develop at early age, around 5 or 6. (I've had
fetish for pantyhose/tights since I was 5.) If there's some
specific item of clothing he likes most to wear then it is most
likely a fetish.
: ruin his sisters clothes i gave him her old dresses, skirts,
: nightgowns etc. Now when he comes home from school he rushes up
Maybe he only likes the look and feel of girl clothes. Does
he always wear skirt/dress (I mean more than girls usually
do these days)?
: he has several boy friends to play whith (and who accept him in
: his girl clothes).
That's very good.
: Shall i allow him to bring his girl clothes to his aunt?
I really don't know, but complete denial is not good.
I'm sure he will get over it somehow as he learns in more detail
what he really wants/likes etc.
/ Petri.K...@oulu.fi - RockFord - http://satellite.oulu.fi/~petri \
| Space Physics Group, Dept of Phys. Sciences, Univ. of Oulu, Finland |
\ "Passion Love Sex Money - Violence Religion Injustice Death" - PSB /
Damaged Justice
An entity calling itself Ellen Siska (esi...@netrax.net) allegedly wrote:
: Not a good sign - check out the newsgroup alt.transgendered and you'll
: that at an early age . . .
Oh, the horror. Someone might turn out *different*.
--
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information
EmmaGoldmanCamillePagliaMarieCurieAynRandSapphoDianaToriAmosPJHarvey&Demona
With their nine inch nails and little fascist panties tucked inside the heart
I feel a groove comin' on | of every nice girrrl.. | Freedom...yeah, right.
GI Trekker
Nikchick remarked:
<<GITrekker is one of the strongly conservative and "traditional"
participants of m.k, so keep that in mind. He feels strongly about it
because of his overall worldview: masturbation is not normal and healthy
but is a symptom of our overly permissive society; boys should not wear
girls' clothes>>
Yes, that is true. But your posting seems to indicate that my views
require some sort of explanation or apology. I don't happen to agree with
that assessment. I don't see many other people explaining their
socio-political leanings before offering advice, so kindly don't ask me to
do so.
As for the posted who commented that I should've read the entire post,
whereupon I would have realized that this kid was getting the girl's
clothes from his sister, you're quite right. I should have read the entire
post. I normally do. Sloppy on my part. But this begs the question as to
why the sister is putting up with this.
Why do I feel so "passionately" about this? For the same reason I have
strong reactions towards a lot of the ills of society. No one seems too
interested in correcting them, so those of us that are have to speak that
much more fervently.
Danie AA
<< As for the posted who commented that I should've read the entire post,
whereupon I would have realized that this kid was getting the girl's
clothes from his sister, you're quite right. I should have read the entire
post. I normally do. Sloppy on my part. But this begs the question as to
why the sister is putting up with this. >>
Well, I can't answer for this particular case, but my brother
did the same thing when we were small kids. I didn't "put
up with it", I encouraged it! Basically, he was trying to be
like his big sister (I was about 8 at the time), and it was
probably the last time in his life for a looooooong time he
thought I was "cool". :)
<<Why do I feel so "passionately" about this? For the same reason I have
strong reactions towards a lot of the ills of society. No one seems too
interested in correcting them, so those of us that are have to speak that
much more fervently. >>
I do agree that people who want to see things corrected need
to raise their voices a bit. I just don't understand what's so
wrong with a kid who's wearing his sister's clothes. He's only
7, and probably has no idea what wearing girls' clothes means
to some older members of society. He'll learn all about gender
roles and stereotypes when he's older, I'm sure.
Thanks for taking the time to give a thoughtful response.
Danie
NikChick
I wrote:
>>GITrekker is one of the strongly conservative and "traditional"
participants of m.k, so keep that in mind.<<
To which GITrekker responded:
>>Yes, that is true. But your posting seems to indicate that my views
require some sort of explanation or apology. I don't happen to agree with
that assessment. I don't see many other people explaining their
socio-political leanings before offering advice, so kindly don't ask me to
do so.<<
If I implied that you needed to explain or apologize for your views, it
was not intentional. I only wanted to clarify (for the poster who asked
why it mattered to you what this kid was wearing) that your remarks are
consistent with the other views you have expressed before. I don't
apologize for my views, and I don't expect other people to apologize for
theirs. :)
Now, that isn't to say there aren't some areas where we are going to
disagree, but I can certainly respect people who assess a situation
differently than I do and come to critically thought opinions that are
different than mine.
Nicole
Mommy to Katherine Ellen, 13 Dec 95
GI Trekker
Just to wrap things up on my part:
First of all, to Nikchick, I didn't mean to imply that you expected a
justification from me, and I appreciate that such was not the intent of
your post. However, I have, in other newsgroups, encountered occasional
boneheads who think that I have no right to voice my opinion simply
because it is generally rather conservative. So I get a little defensive
at times. Sorry for any misunderstandings.
To Danieaa: I suppose one matter that concerns me here is one of age. I
feel that by age 7, a child should be aware of the VERY REAL differences
between genders, and be acting accordingly. If this were, for example, a 3
year old, I wouldn't worry. But seven? That's old enough to know the
differences.
Reitemeyer
Research from Australia (sorry I can't give a reference) as reported in
BBC Radio 4 implied that heat shock was a factor in SIDs and that a baby
sleeping on it's tummy could find it hard to lose excess heat especially
if it has a good head of hair. If your baby insists on sleeping face down
then ensure it has enough skin exposed to allow appropriate cooling.
--
Andrew - father to Corina 23 months
kiw...@t-online.de
IN RIVO FIMI SINE REMO SUM
Carolyn Jean Fairman
GI Trekker <gitr...@aol.com> wrote:
[snip]
>[...] I suppose one matter that concerns me here is one of age. I
>feel that by age 7, a child should be aware of the VERY REAL differences
>between genders, and be acting accordingly. If this were, for example, a 3
>year old, I wouldn't worry. But seven? That's old enough to know the
>differences.
Yes, there are real differences in the gender roles demanded of boys
or girls. They have no real relation to the actual sex of the
children. Kids, if respected for what they like and want on gender
things, seem to be far, more variable than girl = feminine and boy =
masculine leads us to believe. There is no reason to expect a boy,
untutored in the ways of how he _suppposedly ought_ to act, would then
fit the gender role of masculine-only. Some will, of course. Some
will not, of course. The difference is that the boys who would anyway
are left alone and the bys who would *not* anyway are told (thankfully
in this case NOT by the parents, who instead respected him for
himself) by some to stop being yourself (and, shame, I imagine, on
those parents "putting up " with the kid being himself) and start
being what *I* think you ought to be, just because you are male.
That the boy is old enough to know the differences expected of him,
and still chooses instead to do the things he likes (and, I mean *come
on*! We are not talking that he likes to hit people, steal from them,
lie, be impolite, not do chores or anything like that!) means that,
well that is what he likes. If he gets pressure to conform, try to
help him find ways to get along without selling out what he likes.
If it had just happened to fit the gender role for boys, then no one
would have minded. But since it didn't, some people seem to think he
ought not to be who he is, because then he would be improperly
*gendered*.
<sigh>
(ever thankful that my parents let me be different and play with Legos
and wear pants and run around and yell a lot. And to the Mom, I'm
married, very happy with being *female* but not so keen on just being
all things feminine just because I am female. So keep on doing what
you are doing, and help your son deal with being a bit different in a
world that is oft-times rude to those who think and folow who they are
versus doing what someone else tells them they should, for no
reasonable reason, ie 'because he is male' is still unsupported as to
why).
--
| Feminism-the notion (apparently radical to some) that women are people
|\O/| ===If equality is viewed as a loss, what does== Carolyn
| _ | ===that tell you about the previous situation?== Fairman
|/ \| http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~cfairman/ or /Humanists/
Carolyn Jean Fairman
Danie AA <dan...@aol.com> wrote:
><< As for the posted who commented that I should've read the entire post,
>whereupon I would have realized that this kid was getting the girl's
>clothes from his sister, you're quite right. I should have read the entire
>post. I normally do. Sloppy on my part. But this begs the question as to
>why the sister is putting up with this. >>
>
>Well, I can't answer for this particular case, but my brother
>did the same thing when we were small kids. I didn't "put
>up with it", I encouraged it! Basically, he was trying to be
>like his big sister (I was about 8 at the time), and it was
>probably the last time in his life for a looooooong time he
>thought I was "cool". :)
My Mom "put up with" my wearing my *brother's clothes*. I know, most
parents find it perfectly ok for a girl to wear boy's clothes, but not
the other way around. But I find it so odd to see reactions like
GITrekker's, though I appreciate the poster who so nicely and calmly
gave some background for his views. And, Trekker, I respect your
right to your views.
I really admired my brother, and wanting to look like him was part of
that. Plus, the more girlish I dressed the less I could run around,
climb trees and get dirty! :-)
Find out why he likes girl's clothing. He may like the brighter
colors (understandably), the soft fabrics, and so on. I prefered the
real sturdiness of boy's clothing. Plus, and I still find this a
funny thing to say, but most girls are trained not to mind having
their underwear shown. No, not the way many kids will *choose* toshow
off Power Ranger undies, but in the way you see all over the place of
girls in skirts or dresses doing anything but sitting and having their
underwear on view. Bugged the heck out of me, so I wore pants, shorts
and so on.
The boy may like some of the (other and postive( things of girls'
stuff. Our society is so biased about boys and girl's gender things,
that people deny this aspect of the bous who like it. You never know,
it may be a phase, too, and he will change again.
The important thing is to accept him for who he is, since this isn't
exactly a dangerous or evil thing, as if he liked to dismember flies
or bully other kids.
And be certain to explain how some peple want to tell him how he
"ought to" dress and what he "ought to like" just because he is a
boy, even if such pronouncements would deny him enjoying things he
likes.
><<Why do I feel so "passionately" about this? For the same reason I have
>strong reactions towards a lot of the ills of society. No one seems too
>interested in correcting them, so those of us that are have to speak that
>much more fervently. >>
>
>I do agree that people who want to see things corrected need
>to raise their voices a bit. I just don't understand what's so
>wrong with a kid who's wearing his sister's clothes. He's only
>7, and probably has no idea what wearing girls' clothes means
>to some older members of society. He'll learn all about gender
>roles and stereotypes when he's older, I'm sure.
And by then he has actually been allowed to enjoy something he likes,
regardless of those who claim gender roles have anything to do with
sex of the child (ie a boy, because he is male, must be of the
masculine gender and NOT of the feminine, when in reality, kids learn
to deny parts of themselves, sometimes, if they don't fit this narrow
defintion). As such, he will then be able to weigh peer pressure to
conform with what he knows about himself, and be more aware of who he
is before the pain of choosinfg being yourself over being popular
comes into play (though thankfully it seems he currently has a peer
group that is not judgemental on groundless issues like gender typed
clothes).
There is nothing ill about this like in this boy. <shrug> He likes
it. It isn't like he is stealing, hitting other kids or refusing to
be polite.
And, being female, I can understand the like of girl's clothes. They
are pretty, and most people, males included, *like* pretty things.
Women get to continue to enjoy them, and boys get told that as men,
they only get to watch other people who are female enjoy this, and to
dote on female daughters if they are lucky. Not too fair, but that is
what rigid gender roles get you -- unfairness.
A.Jante
GI Trekker wrote:
> To Danieaa: I suppose one matter that concerns me here is one of age. I
> feel that by age 7, a child should be aware of the VERY REAL differences
> between genders, and be acting accordingly. If this were, for example, a 3
> year old, I wouldn't worry. But seven? That's old enough to know the
> differences.
I have to agree. I don't have kids yet, but I _remember_ being
seven (and being six, five, four, and even a little of three)
and at that age I knew a lot more than adults seemed to expect.
One thing (some) adults seem to do is confuse verbal communication
with actual comprehension. A child can not completely express
verbally all that he comprehends, but never never imagine
that he only comprehends what he can express.
FWIW,
Alyn
MARGARET MARY-THERESA BROWN, SUNY BUFFALO
In article <4vsr74$7...@news.news.wmich.edu>, frog...@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice) writes:
>An entity calling itself Ellen Siska (esi...@netrax.net) allegedly wrote:
>: Not a good sign - check out the newsgroup alt.transgendered and you'll
>: hear of many instances where crossdressers/transexuals starting doing
>: that at an early age . . .
My son, age 3, likes me to put barretts in his hair. He also likes
jewelry. I suspect he would like any fun/fancy clothes, girl or boy
style, if he had access to them. He likes to be dressed up for
special occasions, wearing special outfits. His teachers says that all
the boys like playing with the toy hair-curling iron and vanity set.
Richard also likes to put on powder and perfume with me.
IMO this does not necessarily mean anything at all, aside from the
fact that kids like to dress up. Put together a box of fancy
dress-up clothes, for both genders, and let him play dressup. Even
better, invite a friend over too.
- Peggy -
Ellen Siska
cfai...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Carolyn Jean Fairman) wrote:
----------------
<snip>
I really admired my brother, and wanting to look like him was part of
that. Plus, the more girlish I dressed the less I could run around,
climb trees and get dirty! :-)
Find out why he likes girl's clothing. He may like the brighter
colors (understandably), the soft fabrics, and so on. <snip>
The boy may like some of the (other and postive( things of girls'
stuff. Our society is so biased about boys and girl's gender things,
that people deny this aspect of the bous who like it. You never know,
it may be a phase, too, and he will change again.
The important thing is to accept him for who he is, since this isn't
exactly a dangerous or evil thing, as if he liked to dismember flies
or bully other kids.
And be certain to explain how some peple want to tell him how he
"ought to" dress and what he "ought to like" just because he is a
boy, even if such pronouncements would deny him enjoying things he
likes.
>I do agree that people who want to see things corrected need
-------
My reply:
I posted previously for the mother (and the members of this ng, if they
are interested) to check out alt.transgendered. Someone (apparently a CD
or TS) posted a sarcastic reply about "how awful, to be different." I
noticed that no one jumped on that post to agree that it's cool for an
adult male to wear women's clothing, though I think that's what the
poster was saying.
What I've quoted above from Carolyn is *exactly* what the adult
crossdressers explain as their justification for their behavior. They
say that they love the feel of the clothes, that they are pretty and feel
soft against their skin. They don't see why they shouldn't be able
to enjoy these pleasurable sensations, and decry society's disapproval.
They feel they are denied their "feminine" side because they face
disapproval for dressing as a woman.
Most of them share that they started at a very young age, i.e. 4, 5, 6
years old, wearing their sister's clothes. As they get older, they
continued, either secretly "borrowing" clothes or going out and buying
their own. When they are old enough to know the "gender rules" and
realize that society disapproves of their wearing women's clothes, they
don't *stop*, as Carolyn suggests; they just go underground and do it in
secret.
I have no problem at all with girls playing with trucks or boys playing
with dolls. It is an identification with clothing that bothers me. Boys
should be allowed to cry and not be called sissies, absolutely! The
"macho" image is not healthy. But males can explore the opposite gender
role without wearing opposite sex clothes. I'm just telling you that I
wouldn't expect it to stop when the child gets older. If a parent tries
to put a stop to it now, it will likely continue to be done "in the
closet".
If you think it's okay for a man to wear women's clothing as an adult,
then you don't need to be concerned about it. You can be open-minded
about it, allow it to continue, and educate the boy to be sure he tells
his future spouse before he marries. The "experts" in the trangendered
community will tell you that you can't stop it anyway. I am not being an
alarmist, I'm just telling you what I've learned in my "research."
Sorry if that offends anyone or if anyone thinks this is jumping to
conclusions. From what I've learned, that's just how it is.
Danie AA
<< Most of them share that they started at a very young age, i.e. 4, 5, 6
years old, wearing their sister's clothes. As they get older, they
continued, either secretly "borrowing" clothes or going out and buying
their own. When they are old enough to know the "gender rules" and
realize that society disapproves of their wearing women's clothes, they
don't *stop*, as Carolyn suggests; they just go underground and do it in
secret. >>
Many cross-dressers may start out this way. That doesn't
mean that most boys that do this become cross-dressers.
Danie
Damaged Justice
An entity calling itself Danie AA (dan...@aol.com) allegedly wrote:
:
: Many cross-dressers may start out this way. That doesn't
: mean that most boys that do this become cross-dressers.
And what, exactly, is wrong with wearing clothes "society" deems to only
be appropriate for the opposite sex, other than the irrational hatred and
disgust most people seem to react with?
--
Ian M. Schirado | Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and
frog...@yakko.cs.wmich.edu | keep the rules. Thus they can govern in such
I may never meet you, but | a way as to prevail over the corrupt.
I love you anyway. Really. | - Sun Tzu, The Art of War, Book IV
Debbie O'Leary
frog...@yakko.cs.wmich.edu (Damaged Justice) wrote:
>An entity calling itself Danie AA (dan...@aol.com) allegedly wrote:
>:
>: Many cross-dressers may start out this way. That doesn't
>: mean that most boys that do this become cross-dressers.
>
>And what, exactly, is wrong with wearing clothes "society" deems to only
>be appropriate for the opposite sex, other than the irrational hatred and
>disgust most people seem to react with?
It sure does seem ridiculous in the grand scheme of things, doesn't it?
If we started focusing on the important matters that affect our world
instead of social rules with superficial meaning, we'd probably get a
*lot* done!
But we also don't want our children to have to suffer the taunts of mean,
spiteful children and adults. It's just too painful and we want to spare
our children that pain and humiliation.
Debbie
Danie AA
<< : Many cross-dressers may start out this way. That doesn't
: mean that most boys that do this become cross-dressers.
And what, exactly, is wrong with wearing clothes "society" deems to only
be appropriate for the opposite sex, other than the irrational hatred and
disgust most people seem to react with? >>
Relax. I didn't say there's anything wrong with it. I was
correcting some logic, that's all. Get mad at someone
else, please.
Danie
Carolyn Jean Fairman
>My reply:
>I posted previously for the mother (and the members of this ng, if they
>are interested) to check out alt.transgendered. Someone (apparently a CD
>or TS) posted a sarcastic reply about "how awful, to be different." I
>noticed that no one jumped on that post to agree that it's cool for an
>adult male to wear women's clothing, though I think that's what the
>poster was saying.
Well, that bit was, ahem, flame bait IMHO.
But, what I find *so* odd is that NO ONE has ever called me
transgendered. I liked my brother's old jeans. Now Levi's _makes_
jeans for women that are designed for men's bosies. Very odd, that,
but a real thing. No on jumps on that being transgendered. Much of
the transgendered crowd is, rather, trans_sexual_, which is different,
and the main source of concern in parents, IMO.
I _love_ being a woman. I have no interest in being a man.
But I see no logical or reasonable reason why I ought to wear shirts
that button on on side or the other (the way men's and women's shirts
differ, in addition to color and fabric) or why I ought to magically
like dresses just because I have a uterus and love the fact that I hav
one and can make babies and feed them with my breast's milk. :-)
>What I've quoted above from Carolyn is *exactly* what the adult
>crossdressers explain as their justification for their behavior. They
>say that they love the feel of the clothes, that they are pretty and feel
>soft against their skin. They don't see why they shouldn't be able
>to enjoy these pleasurable sensations, and decry society's disapproval.
Hey. Don't be so sexist! You miss all those *women* 'cross dressers'
who got tons of shit in the 1920's for wearing pants and now have
Levis' making them jeans designed for men but marketed to women.
Men should be able to enjoy the clothing they like, as women currently
do *without* being labelled transgendered.
>They feel they are denied their "feminine" side because they face
>disapproval for dressing as a woman.
Or caring for children and staying home with them once their are born,
as their wives go back to work. Men are frequently denied their
"feminine" side in parenting and face disapproval for staying home and
caring for their own children.
Or cooking and shoppping or quilting, or being good at social
interations and not liking aggressive assertiveness. Men *are* denied
the real feminine-typed qualities that they have that *most* humans
have.
Please don't blind yourself to the fact this is more than just
clothing! Or that it somehow only includes men.
>Most of them share that they started at a very young age, i.e. 4, 5, 6
>years old, wearing their sister's clothes.
And I still like "men's" jeans, myself! Go figure.
Many _male_ cross-dressers did not know this about themselves until
they were older, so try to keep your stats in perspective. Likewise
many women who had been denied anything masculine-typed in themselves,
be it clothing like pants or working outside the house or lifting
heavy objects or even, heck, _lifting weights and strength training_,
found that once society opened up to women doing this, that they not
only *liked* it, but were good at it.
>As they get older, they
>continued, either secretly "borrowing" clothes or going out and buying
>their own. When they are old enough to know the "gender rules" and
>realize that society disapproves of their wearing women's clothes, they
>don't *stop*, as Carolyn suggests; they just go underground and do it in
>secret.
Right, and why in secrecy, except that people judge men who
'crossdress' as far weirder than the *currently* more common women who
do so without a thought? How many women wear "men's T shirts"? Well,
now, they are no longer called that, are they? Hmmm.
When I was old enough to know the gender rules, I didn't throw away my
math skills and start learning to cook, even though I hate cooking. I
didn't suddenly decide to learn fashion rules for girls, and to love
wearing dresses, which I still dislike. I wear a bra, but that is
just due to real secondary sex charateristics.
But, because I am a woman no one really seems to mind all that
'crossdressing'. *Why* is that? *Why* do people hold boys to a more
rigid gender role and *why* is a boy not allowed that freedom?
>I have no problem at all with girls playing with trucks or boys playing
>with dolls. It is an identification with clothing that bothers me. Boys
>should be allowed to cry and not be called sissies, absolutely! The
>"macho" image is not healthy. But males can explore the opposite gender
>role without wearing opposite sex clothes. I'm just telling you that I
>wouldn't expect it to stop when the child gets older. If a parent tries
>to put a stop to it now, it will likely continue to be done "in the
>closet".
*Why* do you draw that line? What _reasons_ do you have, other than a
'that is just the way society is' sort of thing? *Why* are some gener
roles ok to share but not others? Is this an arbitraty distinction?
Then be honest about ti.
You have jumped to conclusions because you refuse to analyze the real
social factors that determine gender roles as we see them, and that
generate this unease on clothing. Some boys will prefer feminine
typed clothes and some girls, the mascuine typed ones. If a parent
does not enforce rigid gender roles, only a few end up on this extreme
either way (such as a girl who refuses to touch pants of any sort.
Know any? I don't.) and most kids turn out to be more fluid about
gender, so more boys will wear soft fabrics and maybe even pink and
more girls will wear dark blues and sturdy fabrcis for tree climbing
and maybe even jeans.
<sigh>
Damaged Justice
An entity calling itself Carolyn Jean Fairman (cfai...@leland.Stanford.EDU)
allegedly wrote:
: Ellen Siska <esi...@netrax.net> wrote:
: >cfai...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Carolyn Jean Fairman) wrote:
: [snipped]
: >or TS) posted a sarcastic reply about "how awful, to be different." I
: >noticed that no one jumped on that post to agree that it's cool for an
: >adult male to wear women's clothing, though I think that's what the
: >poster was saying.
:
: Well, that bit was, ahem, flame bait IMHO.
That was me. I contend that the true flame baiters are those who imply,
or state outright, that there is something "wrong" with wearing whatever
clothes one desires.
I also refuse to state whether or not I am a cross-dresser or a transgender,
since that data is completely irrelevant to whether the activity is "wrong."
If I am, I am told that I'm just trying to justify/rationalize my personal
opinion; if not, I am told that I should shut up since I obviously know
nothing about the topic, or that I'm somehow arguing for "anything goes, so
let's all murder, rape and pillage".
One does not have to personally engage in an activity to believe that it
should not be punished by legislation. Just because one has a right to do
something does not necessarily make it "right" to do that thing; however,
it does mean that any legislation which punishes that activity is morally
wrong, and justifable to resist.
: But, what I find *so* odd is that NO ONE has ever called me
: transgendered. I liked my brother's old jeans. Now Levi's _makes_
: jeans for women that are designed for men's bosies. Very odd, that,
: but a real thing. No on jumps on that being transgendered. Much of
: the transgendered crowd is, rather, trans_sexual_, which is different,
: and the main source of concern in parents, IMO.
I contend that most people have a double standard: It's "okay" for women
to wear men's clothes, but not the reverse.
[snip]
:
: Or caring for children and staying home with them once their are born,
: as their wives go back to work. Men are frequently denied their
: "feminine" side in parenting and face disapproval for staying home and
: caring for their own children.
:
: Or cooking and shoppping or quilting, or being good at social
: interations and not liking aggressive assertiveness. Men *are* denied
: the real feminine-typed qualities that they have that *most* humans
: have.
This is the 'culture at large'. Fortunately, there are many people who
don't care about other people's opinions. I don't need my "consciousness
raised" to enjoy childrearing. Nobody is "denying" me the opportunity to
do so, and if anyone disapproves, I laugh and ignore them.
--
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information
"There is nothing nobler or more admirable than when two people who see eye
to eye keep house as man and wife, confounding their enemies and delighting
their friends, as they themselves know better than anyone." [Homer's Odyssey]
Petri Kekkonen
Carolyn Jean Fairman (cfai...@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: But I see no logical or reasonable reason why I ought to wear shirts
: that button on on side or the other (the way men's and women's shirts
<snip>
: Men should be able to enjoy the clothing they like, as women currently
: do *without* being labelled transgendered.
<snip>
: But, because I am a woman no one really seems to mind all that
: 'crossdressing'. *Why* is that? *Why* do people hold boys to a more
: rigid gender role and *why* is a boy not allowed that freedom?
<snip>
: <sigh>
I just couldn't agree more! I've asked the same questions many times
from myself and from my girlfriend. And yes, I love being a male.
esi...@netrax.net
> But, what I find *so* odd is that NO ONE has ever called me
> transgendered. I liked my brother's old jeans. Now Levi's _makes_
> jeans for women that are designed for men's bosies. Very odd, that,
> but a real thing. No on jumps on that being transgendered. Much of
>But, what I find *so* odd is that NO ONE has ever called me
>transgendered. I liked my brother's old jeans. Now Levi's _makes_
>jeans for women that are designed for men's bosies. Very odd, that,
>but a real thing. No on jumps on that being transgendered. Much of
>the transgendered crowd is, rather, trans_sexual_, which is different,
>and the main source of concern in parents, IMO.
Apparently Carolyn, you have not read the information you direct others
to on your web page. "Much of the transgendered crowd" may be transexual,
but MOST are not.
>I _love_ being a woman. I have no interest in being a man.
Most transgenderists feel no need to change sex, either. They just feel
strongly compelled to see themselves in the opposite sex, and they do this
by impersonating women in the most extreme sexist stereotypes.
>But I see no logical or reasonable reason why I ought to wear shirts
>that button on on side or the other (the way men's and women's shirts
>differ, in addition to color and fabric) or why I ought to magically
>like dresses just because I have a uterus and love the fact that I hav
>one and can make babies and feed them with my breast's milk. :-)
Fine. No problem here.
>Hey. Don't be so sexist! You miss all those *women* 'cross dressers'
>who got tons of shit in the 1920's for wearing pants and now have
>Levis' making them jeans designed for men but marketed to women.
I'm not being sexist. Read on.
>Men should be able to enjoy the clothing they like, as women currently
>do *without* being labelled transgendered.
>Or caring for children and staying home with them once their are born,
>as their wives go back to work. Men are frequently denied their
>"feminine" side in parenting and face disapproval for staying home and
>caring for their own children.
>Or cooking and shoppping or quilting, or being good at social
>interations and not liking aggressive assertiveness. Men *are* denied
>the real feminine-typed qualities that they have that *most* humans
>have.
>Please don't blind yourself to the fact this is more than just
>clothing! Or that it somehow only includes men.
>Many _male_ cross-dressers did not know this about themselves until
>they were older, so try to keep your stats in perspective. Likewise
>many women who had been denied anything masculine-typed in themselves,
>be it clothing like pants or working outside the house or lifting
>heavy objects or even, heck, _lifting weights and strength training_,
>found that once society opened up to women doing this, that they not
>only *liked* it, but were good at it.
>Right, and why in secrecy, except that people judge men who
>'crossdress' as far weirder than the *currently* more common women who
>do so without a thought? How many women wear "men's T shirts"? Well,
>now, they are no longer called that, are they? Hmmm.
>When I was old enough to know the gender rules, I didn't throw away my
>math skills and start learning to cook, even though I hate cooking. I
>didn't suddenly decide to learn fashion rules for girls, and to love
>wearing dresses, which I still dislike. I wear a bra, but that is
>just due to real secondary sex charateristics.
>*Why* do you draw that line? What _reasons_ do you have, other than a
>'that is just the way society is' sort of thing? *Why* are some gener
>roles ok to share but not others? Is this an arbitraty distinction?
>Then be honest about ti.
>You have jumped to conclusions because you refuse to analyze the real
>social factors that determine gender roles as we see them, and that
>generate this unease on clothing. Some boys will prefer feminine
>typed clothes and some girls, the mascuine typed ones. If a parent
>does not enforce rigid gender roles, only a few end up on this extreme
>either way (such as a girl who refuses to touch pants of any sort.
>Know any? I don't.) and most kids turn out to be more fluid about
>gender, so more boys will wear soft fabrics and maybe even pink and
>more girls will wear dark blues and sturdy fabrcis for tree climbing
>and maybe even jeans.
Carolyn, for someone who thinks she's an expert on feminism, it is
downright funny that you don't get this at all. Of all people, I would
think that a feminist would find the adult crossdressing most offensive.
These crossdressers are not simply "wearing women's clothes." They
impersonate women. Their dearest desire is to "pass" as a woman in public.
They especially feel most "woman-like" when wearing women's lingerie,
corsets, bras, garter belts, very high heels, all the "trappings" which
are connected to women as sex objects. And they don't stop there. They
wear heavy makeup, wigs; many take hormones to develop breasts, even though
they don't have surgery to remove the beloved you-know-what . . .
You would be very hard-pressed to find a transgenderist who would like to
be like, say, Janet Reno; but MOST of them would love to be like Pamela
Anderson Lee . . .
Do you get the point yet?
Women who wear jeans, men's t-shirts, etc., most likely, like you, are
rejecting these sex object stereotypes. Or maybe they're doing it because
it is *comfortable* and *practical*, not to *impersonate* a man. Do most
women who wear jeans feel compelled to paint on a moustache, shave their
head, etc.? I don't think so . . . But do you think that garter belts,
corsets, very high heels are worn by these trangenderists for physical
*comfort* or *practicality*? I think not. It is in their heads that they
feel the *comfort* because they are rejecting the traditional "manly" role
of pursuer and wish to be sex objects. They claim that "imitation is the
sincerest form of flattery", but if Pamela Anderson Lee is who they are
imitating, then they send the same message to women than the most macho
types - "you are worthy only in your sexual attractiveness and value to me."
What's harmful about this? Well, my comments about it going underground should
be self-explanatory. I don't feel this is a matter for legislation, but I DO
feel it is a matter for honesty. There are thousands of women's lives which
have been destroyed because they have discovered that their spouses do this
behind their backs; or they marry the woman without telling her, and when it
comes out, they expect the wife to accept it "because I'm still the same
person I was before, just wearing different clothes." Right - a sexist pig.
If they meet their mate and are up-front about it from the start and it's
okay with her, FINE. I don't have a problem with it, it's their life and their
decision. But that is not usually the case . . .
I would challenge anyone reading this thread to tell me that it would be
perfectly okay for them to discover this about their husband, and that it
wouldn't make a difference in the way they perceive him. And I'm not just
saying this about male-to-female transgenderists. If a man discovered that his
wife was into *impersonating* a man, how would that go over? We're talking
*impersonation* here, not simply wearing a kilt because it *is* comfortable . . .
Like I said before, one doesn't have to impersonate a woman to be a loving
house husband, to cook, clean, take on child care, etc. I think you're behind
the times if you think that kind of behavior is persecuted by the majority
these days. Most women I know would love to have a husband like that and
wouldn't think of him as a "sissy." But put him in lingerie, makeup, and a
wig, and NOT as a Halloween gag or joke, and most women would have a real hard
time thinking of him as a man.
Is this wrong? Well, if it is, so be it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
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roxiblue
I think there have been quite a few really intelligent, well-thought
out posts here about this, but it bothers me to see
"transgendered/transsexual" and "transvestite" being used
interchangably by so many of you. They are not the same thing.
Those who are "transgendered/transsexual" have an issue with gender
identification; that is, they have come to realize they are not in the
properly gendered bodies (agree with this concept or don't, but that
isn't the issue). Transgendered people want to be the opposite
sex...sometimes they go through the steps to make that happen. When a
biological man is becoming a woman, he must "live" as a woman for at
least a year and of course that involves dressing as one. In that
sense he is a "crossdresser" because technically he's still a man
(even though he often has more estrogen flowing through his system
than most of us women do due to hormone therapy), but in the
psychological community he is "transitioning" from a man to a woman
and becoming accustomed to one aspect of being female. Most
pre-operative transsexuals do not dress as outrageously as your
typical "drag queen" does. They are trying to be perceived as "real"
women and therefore dress as "real" women (note that I'm using the
term "real" in quotes to denote loose translation of the word), often
in jeans and t-shirts (ironic, huh?) or other "casual" wear. They
often grow their hair out as well. If in their sexual orientation
they prefer men, they will be considered a heterosexual woman. Now
here's the really confusing part to some people: if they prefer
women, after transitioning they will be lesbian women. I know some of
you are wondering "why become a woman who prefers women if you're
already a man who prefers women?" There's are two issues here:
gender identification (what sex you feel you are) and sexual
orientation (what sex you are sexually attracted to). The two issues
are completely separate and have nothing to do with each other,
psychologically speaking. Therefore, it is possible to physically be
a man (who feels he is truly female---there's your gender id) who
transitions and still prefers women (there's your sexual orientation,
which doesn't change regardless of your gender id).
Transvestites are a different breed altogether. They cross-dress for
fun and/or pleasure. They do not take hormones or try to be "real"
women. They are men and happy to be that way. They usually dress
quite flamboyantly as that is part of the fun for them...they normally
do not sport their own hair but rather wear wigs (sometimes really BIG
wigs!). They often end up looking like caricatures of women (the
corsets, garter belts, etc that most women would *never* wear on a
daily basis) but that's part of the point of the whole thing...what
fun is it to "dress like a woman" if you just wear jeans and a
t-shirt? :) Transvestites can be heterosexual or homosexual...sexual
orientation is not an issue here, nor is gender id.
I hope this makes sense...I took *loads* of sociology classes in
college and found this information fascinating and little known to
most people. I also have a close friend currently transitioning from
male to female, where all this info finally came in handy. :)
Please, no email or flames on whether or not you personally feel it's
possible to "be in the wrong body" (as it's commonly stated) or your
views on sexual orientation...this was a post purely for informational
reasons. Hope it accomplished its purpose. :)
-Shauna
**************************
*Fate leads the willing *
*The unwilling, she drags*
**************************
Petri Kekkonen
esi...@netrax.net wrote:
: to on your web page. "Much of the transgendered crowd" may be transexual,
: but MOST are not.
<snip>
: Most transgenderists feel no need to change sex, either. They just feel
: strongly compelled to see themselves in the opposite sex, and they do this
: by impersonating women in the most extreme sexist stereotypes.
This is getting complicated. Woman wearing jeans is not TG, rather
CD, IMHO. A man impersonation woman but living happily as a man
is transvestite, again IMHO. I don't know the exact definition of
TG if there is one. Transsexuals are different story, they just live
in the body of wrong gender.
: These crossdressers are not simply "wearing women's clothes." They
: impersonate women. Their dearest desire is to "pass" as a woman in public.
My point is that not all men wearing womens clothing are transvestites,
TGs or TSes. If I'd like to wear some feminine item of clothing
together with my "normal" clothing I'm not trying to impersonate a
woman. In that case I'd call myself CD or genderbender or something
like that. And being one shouldn't threaten women in any way.
Ellen Siska
Petri Kekkonen wrote:
> This is getting complicated. Woman wearing jeans is not TG, rather
> CD, IMHO. A man impersonation woman but living happily as a man
> is transvestite, again IMHO. I don't know the exact definition of
> TG if there is one. Transsexuals are different story, they just live
> in the body of wrong gender.
>
> TGs or TSes. If I'd like to wear some feminine item of clothing
> together with my "normal" clothing I'm not trying to impersonate a
> woman. In that case I'd call myself CD or genderbender or something
> like that. And being one shouldn't threaten women in any way.
Petri,
You do need your definitions clarified. Transgender is the "catchall"
term for tranvestites and transexuals. Transvestites and cross dressers
(CDs) are the same thing.
And simply wearing lycra (as I've seen you posted to that newsgroup) IS
no big deal . . . you're right, it's not the same thing. Androgynous
dressing is not the same as transvestism.
Carolyn Jean Fairman
In article <8415031...@dejanews.com>, <esi...@netrax.net> wrote:
>cfai...@leland.Stanford.EDU (Carolyn Jean Fairman) wrote:
>>But, what I find *so* odd is that NO ONE has ever called me
>>transgendered. I liked my brother's old jeans. Now Levi's _makes_
>>jeans for women that are designed for men's bosies. Very odd, that,
>>but a real thing. No on jumps on that being transgendered. Much of
>>the transgendered crowd is, rather, trans_sexual_, which is different,
>>and the main source of concern in parents, IMO.
>
>Apparently Carolyn, you have not read the information you direct others
>to on your web page. "Much of the transgendered crowd" may be transexual,
>but MOST are not.
Yet later in this post you keep bringing up men trying to *be* women.
I'm not talking about having an issue with the *sex* of your body,
only the cultural ideas that make other people tell you what you
can't do because of your sex, even if you like than (and, again, we
are not talking raper, murder, pillage, ok? :-).
I have met very few men who are just doing what they like, some of
which people call feminine and who also call themselves
"transgendered". Likewise, I do not consider myself transgender.
I know about a fair number of *transgender* folk, and they really,
IMHE, don't like the SEX they are.
>>I _love_ being a woman. I have no interest in being a man.
>
>Most transgenderists feel no need to change sex, either. They just feel
>strongly compelled to see themselves in the opposite sex, and they do this
>by impersonating women in the most extreme sexist stereotypes.
Well, look, of you want to see youself in the other SEX then we are
not talking gender!
Gender is the social construct. It is not about breasts or facial
hair. It has nothing to do with sexual or secondary sex
chracteristics.
Gender is a woman being assumed to be competant with an infant and a
man being assumed incompetant. Gender is gramparents giving a baby
girl dresses and dolls and praising her mostly only for playing with
those. Gender is gramparents giving a baby boy overalls and dark blue
shirts and trucks and footballs and praising him mostly only for
playing with those, and wearing the right clothes.
Gender is telling a girl that she cannot wear something "because she
is a girl" when that is bogus loigc and fallacious reasoning. She
will still have a uterus if she never once wears a dress!
Gender is encouraging a boy infant in exploring and shouting, and
scooping up a girl child if she moves very far and then shushing her
when she shouts.
Sex is being a male or female human. And sex has nothing to do with
the above. Not liking gender role has nothing at all to do with the
sex of thepeople involved.
>>But I see no logical or reasonable reason why I ought to wear shirts
>>that button on on side or the other (the way men's and women's shirts
>>differ, in addition to color and fabric) or why I ought to magically
>>like dresses just because I have a uterus and love the fact that I hav
>>one and can make babies and feed them with my breast's milk. :-)
>
>Fine. No problem here.
>
>>Hey. Don't be so sexist! You miss all those *women* 'cross dressers'
>>who got tons of shit in the 1920's for wearing pants and now have
>>Levis' making them jeans designed for men but marketed to women.
>
>I'm not being sexist. Read on.
>
>>Men should be able to enjoy the clothing they like, as women currently
>>do *without* being labelled transgendered.
[snip]
>Carolyn, for someone who thinks she's an expert on feminism, it is
>downright funny that you don't get this at all. Of all people, I would
>think that a feminist would find the adult crossdressing most offensive.
Male adult crossdressing, doncha mean? And, men who are not gender
bound are gnerally like I am, people who identify with their *own sex*
and simply see gender roles as the rigid and silly thingsd they are,
so if they want two earrings, or pretty shiny earrings, they get 'em.
>These crossdressers are not simply "wearing women's clothes." They
>impersonate women. Their dearest desire is to "pass" as a woman in
>public.
Ah. Well, there are advantages to the female gender role. I have
passed as a man, but I didn't do it because I wanted to **be** a *male
human*. And this boy may feel way more like me.
I did it because 1)I liked short hair and 2)I lifted weights. Combined
with it being ok for women to dress in jeans and t shirts, I passed if
I had a sweatshirt on.
My _intent_ was never (well, once I could examine gender roles I used
myself as a walking social psych lab, but that was specific) to *be* a
man.
I didn't want to use the men's restroom. I didn't want a penis. I
found it funny to be called 'sir' not because I wanted to be seen as a
man, but because it revealed people's gender stereotypes and I study
those.
>They especially feel most "woman-like" when wearing women's lingerie,
>corsets, bras, garter belts, very high heels, all the "trappings" which
>are connected to women as sex objects. And they don't stop there. They
>wear heavy makeup, wigs; many take hormones to develop breasts, even though
>they don't have surgery to remove the beloved you-know-what . . .
>
>You would be very hard-pressed to find a transgenderist who would like to
>be like, say, Janet Reno; but MOST of them would love to be like Pamela
>Anderson Lee . . .
>
>Do you get the point yet?
You jumped and that is not fair. You jumped from passing as a woman
(which garter belts and corsets will not really help, just going about
one's day to day life) to dressing up like a Las Vegas showgirl.
You are also only referring to men, again.
>Women who wear jeans, men's t-shirts, etc., most likely, like you, are
>rejecting these sex object stereotypes. Or maybe they're doing it because
>it is *comfortable* and *practical*, not to *impersonate* a man. Do most
>women who wear jeans feel compelled to paint on a moustache, shave their
>head, etc.? I don't think so . . . But do you think that garter belts,
>corsets, very high heels are worn by these trangenderists for physical
>*comfort* or *practicality*? I think not.
Exactly, and many men delve into feminine-typed things not to
impersonate a woman but because they are nice, pretty or they like
them (hell, lots of women like *skirts* of a normal kind. No doubt,
some men would like them to. That is not transgender.).
I sincerely doubt this boy is transgender. I ll bet he likes some
things labelled feminine, as well as tons of things labelled
masculine. Furthermore, I bet he likes things in each category FOR
THE SAME REASON.
The transgender crowd is trying to switch SEX, and that is a far cry
from the issue of restrctive gender roles and being your own *sex* but
being the gender role you like.
>It is in their heads that they
>feel the *comfort* because they are rejecting the traditional "manly" role
>of pursuer and wish to be sex objects. They claim that "imitation is the
>sincerest form of flattery", but if Pamela Anderson Lee is who they are
>imitating, then they send the same message to women than the most macho
>types - "you are worthy only in your sexual attractiveness and value to me."
Yes, and that is why I am not the least bit interested in transgender
issues. The poor Mom is likely totally freaked out now. Look, a man
can reject the pursuer role, and want to be a sex object and *still*
do it in the traditional masculine stereotyped manner. Bad boys and
all. They look sexy and women flock to them and support them. ;-)
I'm talking about a kid who likes things and if he lived in a cultural
vacuum no one would care if he wanted to be feminine as well as
masculine. I just don't see why you have drag it out into the whole
transsexual thing, or that of the transgender who *want* to be the
other SEX. The way more common explanation is that he is a person who
likes a range of things, and some are femininine so, because he is a
_male_ human, some folks get wierd about it.
I like many masculine-typed things. But for the love of life, men's
underwear is stupid for me to wear. Men's underwear is NOT a
masculine typed thing, because it is designe for wholly biological
function. Pants? ONly a gender thing. Pink, soft shirts? ONly a
gender thing. There is no need for a man to wear a bra *unless* he is
not merely interested in free gender role so he can enjoy the things
he likes but is rather aiming for trying to pretend he is the other
SEX. Hence he is transsexual.
>What's harmful about this? Well, my comments about it going underground should
>be self-explanatory. I don't feel this is a matter for legislation, but I DO
>feel it is a matter for honesty. There are thousands of women's lives which
>have been destroyed because they have discovered that their spouses do this
>behind their backs; or they marry the woman without telling her, and when it
>comes out, they expect the wife to accept it "because I'm still the same
>person I was before, just wearing different clothes." Right - a sexist pig.
>If they meet their mate and are up-front about it from the start and it's
>okay with her, FINE. I don't have a problem with it, it's their life and their
>decision. But that is not usually the case . . .
Again, you have lept off into a transexual person, from a case of a
boy who likes somethings feminine. There doesn't seem to be evidence
that the kid doesn't want to be MALE, or that he wants to pretend he
is FEMALE, but just that he likes, as a male, some things feminine.
That means he is _not_ transgendered and he is _not_ transsexual. He
is simply not confined within the narrow all-masculine male gender
role.
>I would challenge anyone reading this thread to tell me that it would
>be perfectly okay for them to discover this about their husband, and
>that it wouldn't make a difference in the way they perceive him. And
>I'm not just saying this about male-to-female transgenderists. If a
>man discovered that his wife was into *impersonating* a man, how would
>that go over? We're talking *impersonation* here, not simply wearing
>a kilt because it *is* comfortable . . .
*You* are talking impersonation (which is transsexual to me, because
if you are out aiming to impersonate, you want to be the other sex).
I am not, and it really didn't seem to be an issue with the boy,
either.
I agree that transgendered folk who go as far as being transexual in
terms of impersonations should be up front about it.
A man who likes femininie things will have them on the surface,
because crossing a gender barrier does NOT mean things to the level of
underwear and corsets, for crying out loud!
>Like I said before, one doesn't have to impersonate a woman to be a
>loving house husband, to cook, clean, take on child care, etc. I
>think you're behind the times if you think that kind of behavior is
>persecuted by the majority these days.
You are a fool to think it is not. One need not be _"persecuted" to
have disapproval, subtle comments and stares. Men here have related
being asked if they like to "babysit" their own kid!
And on soc.men, my husband was called a woman because he cooks and has
long hair.
I think you are being deliberately blind to think that gender roles
have done more than loosen a bit. REad any, *any*, of the stay at
home Dads newsletters. They get massive pressure. They are called
women.
It is still a common playground taunt to call a boy a girl if he is
not masculine enough, or even just throws poorly.
And a boy who wants to grow up to care for children is called a wuss,
a puss, a sissy, -- a girl.
No, only at the smallest increments, has it become ok for men to move
into these realms. That's great though, because then the men who,
hey, liked pink or liked children, can be free to be that.
>Most women I know would love to have a husband like that and wouldn't
>think of him as a "sissy." But put him in lingerie, makeup, and a
>wig, and NOT as a Halloween gag or joke, and most women would have a
>real hard time thinking of him as a man.
Well, does *he* want to think of himself as a man in that situation?
Is he being a male human, who does what he likes despite gender roles,
or is he trying to *be a woman*? Because the latter is not at all
relelvant and the former is what I am talking about.
And, you are quite simply wrong that most women want involved fathers.
Some women define themselves as Mother and see the maternal gender
role as all theirs and they " gatekeep", or make it very hard for the
father to gain competance with childrearing. How many women out there
correct how your spouse cleans (assuming it is clean)? Women
rearrange dishes that would work just fine in the dishwasher and they
fix functionally fine diapers their husbands put on.
Lingerie and a wig (a *wig*? Why the hell can't he grow his own hair?
If he can't, he can't. Some women can't grow long hair, and if they
wore a wig I woulf find it equally odd) are trying to not be a male.
One can be male and express feminine traits but do so because you like
them -- not to **impersonate a woman**.
Can you not see these are two vastly separate and different issue?
The boy was in the former. Transsexuals, even if they call themselves
transgendererd folk, but then go on and impersonate the other sex, are
not in the category of the boy (or myself. I would never want to wear
men's underwear or to paint on facial hair!).
Carolyn Jean Fairman
Petri Kekkonen <kekk...@sun1.oulu.fi> wrote:
>esi...@netrax.net wrote:
>: to on your web page. "Much of the transgendered crowd" may be transexual,
>: but MOST are not.
>
><snip>
>
>: Most transgenderists feel no need to change sex, either. They just feel
>: strongly compelled to see themselves in the opposite sex, and they do this
>: by impersonating women in the most extreme sexist stereotypes.
>
> CD, IMHO. A man impersonation woman but living happily as a man
> is transvestite, again IMHO. I don't know the exact definition of
> TG if there is one. Transsexuals are different story, they just live
> in the body of wrong gender.
But few people actually think a woman in jeans is _crossdressing)_ and
just about nobody thinks it odd. I agree with the def for
transvestite.
Transexuals live in the body of the wrong **SEX**, not gender!
_Please_ get this right! Gender is a social thing, about what toys
you ought to like (boys _ought_ to like trains, 'because they are
boys', and that is *gender* because in reality is has nothing
whatsoever to do with the child being a boy).
Sex is the biolgoical reality. Any man who wears a bra is a
transexual, because no man needs that piece of clothing! Any man who
wears a skirt is bending gender rules, just as the men with long hair
and earrings have. But the latter men are not trying to *impersonate*
or even _pass for_ the other sex.
Transgender is a complicated word, because it seems that some folks
don't like to have to use the word sex to refer to biolgiocal sex. :-)
Really! So they slop the word gender over, when gender (well, the
gender that isn't language and the gender of words...) ONLY refers to
non-sex related social norms which many people presume to tie to sex.
For example, if you call your baby girls a boy, people will never give
her a a doll, and will instead choose a mmore masculine toy to offer.
Clearly these adults are not responding to sex -- they are responding
to what they think ought to be done to create a gender for a boy.
>: These crossdressers are not simply "wearing women's clothes." They
>: impersonate women. Their dearest desire is to "pass" as a woman in public.
>
> My point is that not all men wearing womens clothing are transvestites,
> TGs or TSes. If I'd like to wear some feminine item of clothing
> together with my "normal" clothing I'm not trying to impersonate a
> woman. In that case I'd call myself CD or genderbender or something
> like that. And being one shouldn't threaten women in any way.
Precisely. I like 'gender bender' because it deals with how gender is
a restrictive social role, and that by simply doing something you like
that doesn't fit it, you are 'bending' the rules. One can do this a
lot and have no desire or intent to *impersonate*, much less campily
try to impersonate a Las Vega showgirl!
My husband has very long hair and is often called ma'am from the back.
he is neither transsexual nor transgendered; he simply likes long hair
and _other_ people impose their idea of the gender role for women
upon him. But he has no interest in trying to _impersonate_ a woman.
Really, this is not that complicated, if one remembers that sex is the
male or female body and gender is the socially-generated role that
people force upon and assume (well some do) the sexes, regardless of
whether or not the person likes it.
Damaged Justice
An entity calling itself Debbie O'Leary (dol...@indiana.edu) allegedly wrote:
: >And what, exactly, is wrong with wearing clothes "society" deems to only
: >be appropriate for the opposite sex, other than the irrational hatred and
: >disgust most people seem to react with?
: It sure does seem ridiculous in the grand scheme of things, doesn't it?
: instead of social rules with superficial meaning, we'd probably get a
: *lot* done!
I note, in passing, that Danie (who I was originally responding to) sees
nothing wrong with wearing whatever clothes one wishes, and I reacted overly
hastily, for which I have apologized.
: But we also don't want our children to have to suffer the taunts of mean,
: spiteful children and adults. It's just too painful and we want to spare
: our children that pain and humiliation.
I suffered a great deal of "pain and humiliation" at the hands of children
when I was forced to attend school; thus, I conclude that I would rather have
been homeschooled from the beginning. I am not an advocate of trial by fire,
nor would I deliberately place a child in a potentially painful/humiliating
situation merely for the purpose of "toughening them up". However, I believe
that children will be much better prepared for this sort of thing if they
are taught from a very early age that not everyone's opinion is worthy of
respect. Witness the recent post here about the 12-year old boy who hung
himself because of the emotional abuse his "classmates" heaped on him for
being overweight [by whose standards?]. Some will argue that since he can't
"hide from the world", it was better for him to "get out there and face it".
So what happens? He kills himself (which I contemplated more times than I
care to remember).
Pain is to be avoided, when possible. Teach your children self-esteem, and
of the stupidity of others, and they will be better prepared to ignore any
knuckle-dragging cretins who get their jollies by causing others pain. And
if that pain extends into the physical realm, teach them self-defense. (One
of the things I hated most about government schools was that self-defense
was punished as vigorously as aggression; hence, I concluded that those who
ran the place were just as evil as those trying to aggress upon me.)
--
http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information
EmmaGoldmanCamillePagliaMarieCurieAynRandSapphoDianaToriAmosPJHarvey&Demona
Living in dread with your fragile brain and the executioner's got your number
I feel a groove comin' on -:- Freedom...yeah, right.
David Wasser
In article <505f4o$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> dan...@aol.com (Danie AA)
writes:
><< Most of them share that they started at a very young age, i.e. 4, 5, 6
>years old, wearing their sister's clothes. As they get older, they
>continued, either secretly "borrowing" clothes or going out and buying
>their own. When they are old enough to know the "gender rules" and
>realize that society disapproves of their wearing women's clothes, they
>don't *stop*, as Carolyn suggests; they just go underground and do it in
>secret. >>
>
>Many cross-dressers may start out this way. That doesn't
>mean that most boys that do this become cross-dressers.
Do you know what would be really funny? If we all woke up tomaorrow and didn't
have any pre-conceived notions about "what boys wear" and "what girls wear".
Then there would be no stigma involved in wearing anything that took your
fancy.
Imagine.
Do you know what is really stupid? In western civilization--except for the
Celts and Scots, those clever guys-- it is "appropriate" for men to wear pants
and not skirts, but anatomically I have to believe a skirt is a heck of a lot
more comfortable for a man than pants. Does anyone know how or why this came
about? Any history of fashion people out there?
Liza (Dave has great legs and should wear skirts, IMO.)
---
David & Liza Wasser email: DW...@valhalla.rhein-main.de
Hainburg Germany (near Frankfurt, on the banks of the River Main)
"Let us think the unthinkable, let us do the undoable. Let us prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all!"
-- Dirk Gently
Alison Wyld - SunSoft ICNC
I think once the baby starts rolling onto its tummy of its own
accord it is OK to allow tummy sleeping (how you'd prevent it
is a mystery to me). My 7.5 month old slept on her tummy last night
for the 1st time. Since she HATES being on her tummy usually I was
surprised. I was not surprised to be woken by shrieks of outrage
at 6.15am when she woke up and noticed she was on her tummy :-)
I think watching out for overheating is important as well, though.
We don't have cot bumpers or a quilt or anything - she has a
sleepsuit then cotton knit blankies that she can kick off when
she's hot.
Cheers
Slison
Ellen Siska
Ellen Siska wrote:
> I'd suggest that anyone who is interested in more information can go to
> http://www.ren.com That's the web page of Renaissance, a gender
> education organization.
Oop! Sorry - that's http://www.ren.org
Ellen Siska
cat...@cris.com wrote:
>I think there have been quite a few really intelligent, well-thought
>out posts here about this, but it bothers me to see
>"transgendered/transsexual" and "transvestite" being used
>interchangably by so many of you. They are not the same thing.
>Those who are "transgendered/transsexual" have an issue with gender
>identification; <snip>
>Transvestites are a different breed altogether. They cross-dress for
>fun and/or pleasure. <snip>
Shauna,
*You* are in error here. Transvestites (another word for cross dressers)
are NOT "a different breed altogether. As I stated in my prior posts,
the term "transgendered" is an umbrella term which includes transvestites
*and* transexuals. In other words, both transvestites *and* transexuals
consider themselves "transgendered." Sometimes they will call themselves
"bi-gendered." You are correct that transvestites do not wish to
permanently change their sex by undergoing sexual reassignment surgery,
while transexuals do.
Bigkit...@yahoo.com
> My 7 year old son often wears girl clothes. What should i do?
> He started wearing his sisters clothes when playing house and i
> didn't see any harm in this. later on he started wearing them
> also when he wasn't playing house. Because i didn't want him to
> ruin his sisters clothes i gave him her old dresses, skirts,
> nightgowns etc. Now when he comes home from school he rushes up
> to his room and puts on his girl clothes. He won't take them off
> until he goes to bed (he sleeps in a nightgown).
>
> I tried to stop him wearing girl clothes but nothing would help.
> When i force him in boy clothes or i hide his girl clothes he
> starts to yell or cry for hours. I gave him many boy things and
> he has several boy friends to play whith (and who accept him in
> his girl clothes).
>
> during my holliday he will stay for six weeks with his aunt.
> I fear that if i don't allow him to bring his girl clothes with
> him that his aunt will get problems with him (crying, yelling or
> stealing the clothes of his nieces). His aunt and nieces have seen
> him in girl clothes but i don't think she fu.
Bigkit...@yahoo.com
> means when he lives with them. I also fear of the reactions of
> other people. At home people saw him gradually picking up his habbit.
>
> Shall i allow him to bring his girl clothes to his aunt?
>
> At home he may wear girl clothes in and around the house,
> at the playground, when he goes to some of his friends and when we
> go out to people who accept him in his girl clothes.
> Since he has there no safe playground or people who learned to accept
> him, what should he be allowed? (his aunt can't keep him inside all the
> time)
>
> eva.
Lit him wear what he likes and while he is with your ant just pack all girls clothes and tell your aunt to let him wear the clothes and help him look like a girl if that is what he wants to do. You cant change how a person feels when they like a different way of dress. Just support him and let him dress the way he wants.