toy guns (vent)
thomas walter x5955
We have always made a point NOT to have toy guns in the house (or
real ones, for that matter). So at our son's 5th birthday party
a friend gave our son a set of plastic toy pistols (THEIR SON
picked it out for him.) Since it was his birthday party, we just
said "thanks" and put them away.
Well, our oldest has a sharp memory and kept asking for them. So we
let him play with them, but have explained that we do NOT aim at
people nor animals, toy or no toy!
Also that if he is every at a friends house. And anyone shows him a
real gun... to NOT touch it, but call us immediately and we will
pick him up!
[We live in Central Texas, most homes here will have more than
one gun. Yes, I know other parents who keep loaded firearms
in "quick reach" - sorry, just plain dumb with children in the
house!].
So what is the lastest toy that shows up... a water pistol
that pulls back the chamber just like a real 9mm! Egads... it
went back to WalMart once we discovered that neat "feature".
If they want water pistols, I figure OK... but atleast make it
something a little more like a "toy" and not how to cock an
automatic! At least the 'super squirters' are clearly water
toys that do not look like "the real McCoy")
Sheesh... sorry just venting, but have always felt any fire arm
should be always stored unloaded and kept locked up! A neighbor
keeps a 9mm loaded in a drawer... when I asked about it being loaded
with kids in the house, came the reply "they don't know how to cock
it, and it they ever touched it they know I would 'spank their but'
--- err, I just KNOW kids a curious, especially when you tell them
something is off limits! (how many of you remember being a little
sneaky about that "off limits" stuff!)
Cheers,
Tom (no I am NOT in the photo album.... sorry couldn't resist)
papa to Emerson (3/30/90) and Liam (8/29/92)
JONNA L. HAMRICK
>From: wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955)
>Subject: toy guns (vent)
>Date: 12 Jun 1995 20:08:04 GMT
{toy gun snip}
>Sheesh... sorry just venting, but have always felt any fire arm
>should be always stored unloaded and kept locked up! A neighbor
>keeps a 9mm loaded in a drawer... when I asked about it being loaded
>with kids in the house, came the reply "they don't know how to cock
>it, and it they ever touched it they know I would 'spank their but'
>--- err, I just KNOW kids a curious, especially when you tell them
>something is off limits! (how many of you remember being a little
>sneaky about that "off limits" stuff!)
EXACTLY! If it's made out to be mysterious and off limits, kids will sneak
and check it out on their own. When I was married, we owned guns, they were
always locked away. We showed them to our kids, let them hold them (unloaded
of course) and explained the dangers of guns...EXPLICITLY. Guns don't kill
ppl, ppl kill ppl whether its with a gun or a kitchen knife or their bare
hands. Responsible education is the key. And our children never did touch
them or sneak to peek at them, we took the curiousity away.
My dad had guns, even had one loaded in a dresser drawer. I knew where it
was, I knew it was loaded, I knew it was off limits. I would always 'help'
him clean his guns and when I got older, he took me shooting, never did I
sneak and handle his guns...no curiosity
=====================================================================
Cherokee ==> Kee
Jonna (jham...@afit.af.mil)
Mom to Roni--2 Jan 92 and Jeremy--28 Apr 85
Full-time mom, full-time outside job, full-time student
Who says there isn't enough time to do EVERYTHING! :->
Hey don't knock it...it's the chaos that holds me together ;-)
Cleota Gambino
John Cobarruvias <john...@blkbox.com> wrote:
>Kevran Day (day_k...@tandem.com) wrote:
>> In article <3ri6r4$e...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com
>
>> > Toy Gun's.... hope this is not too much of a hot patato for misc.kids. ;-)
>> >
>
>Yep. An if yous tinks yous can comes heres in Texass, and steel from
>me, den yous got an udder ting coming. Like ma 357 Magnum wit dum dum
>bullets.
>
>And oh, buy da way, wecome two texass.
>
>
Personally, John, I take offense to the above. Not all
Texans sound that dumb. Most of us have graduated from
high school and know how to talk and spell correctly.
Just because our legislature thinks it is better for us
to have concealed weapons, doesn't mean we all think that
it is right. I for one don't agree with the law.
Yes, we *did* have guns in our house. Locked in a cedar
cabinet (without windows) with the key out of sight/out
of reach. Now we don't have them anymore. One reason
we had them was my husband goes deer hunting each year.
He now uses a bow instead. And yes we do eat the vinison.
I was raised on it - no cholestrol and saves a lot on
meat at the grocery store. My husband sold the guns,
because he found something he would rather spend the money
on - a '65 Pontiac GTO. - Not that it is any of your
business.
Just venting.
Cleota Gambino
mama to C. J. and Trentyn
pg 53 in '95 album
John Cobarruvias
> In article <3rilca$g...@news.blkbox.com>,
> John Cobarruvias <john...@blkbox.com> wrote:
> >Kevran Day (day_k...@tandem.com) wrote:
> >> In article <3ri6r4$e...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com
> >> (thomas walter x5955) wrote:
> >
> >> > Toy Gun's.... hope this is not too much of a hot patato for misc.kids. ;-)
> >> >
> >> AMEN! And now your lovely state allows concealed weapons -- progress...
> >
> >Yep. An if yous tinks yous can comes heres in Texass, and steel from
> >me, den yous got an udder ting coming. Like ma 357 Magnum wit dum dum
> >bullets.
> >
> >And oh, buy da way, wecome two texass.
> >
> >
> Personally, John, I take offense to the above. Not all
> Texans sound that dumb. Most of us have graduated from
> high school and know how to talk and spell correctly.
If the above offended anyone, I am sorry. It was not meant to say all
Texans cant spell or like the idea of carrying a loaded 357 Magnum
with dum dum bullets, just some.
Hum.........Boy, does the above sound like something the nra said when
apologizing for the jack booted thugs comments?
Hey, dont be o-fend-ed. I werent doin nutten more den foolin.
Really. Hey! I got an education from Texas A&M, so I am allowed to
misspell.
Susan Miller
>In article <3rilca$g...@news.blkbox.com>,
>John Cobarruvias <john...@blkbox.com> wrote:
>>
>>And oh, buy da way, wecome two texass.
>>
>>
>
>Personally, John, I take offense to the above. Not all
snip
Not to mention the fact that he's not even close with that there Texas accent.
:-)
Susan Miller
Texas Instruments
Semiconductor R & D / Technology
mil...@spdc.ti.com
Lynda Seehusen
: In article <3ri6r4$e...@newsgate.sps.mot.com> wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com (tho
mas walter x5955) writes:
: >From: wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955)
: >Subject: toy guns (vent)
: >Date: 12 Jun 1995 20:08:04 GMT
: {toy gun snip}
My husband's parents allowed him to have a toy cap gun and he says
that it taught him gun safety because their #1 rule was that he never
ever point it at anyone. If they ever saw him point it at someone,
he would have it taken away.
We have two rifles in our house that are NEVER kept loaded and the
bullets are locked away in a seperate location. I think the neighbor
of the original poster is being totally stupid to think that his kids
are "safe" from that loaded gun in the house.
I will ask in the future if there are any guns in the house of Emma's
friends and if so, where are they kept, etc. I would never allow her
to play in a house where a loaded gun was kept.
Lynda, mom to Emma Rose, 2.8 and "Junior" due Oct. 3.
_______________________________________________________________________________
"Cleaning the house while your kids are still growing is like shoveling the
sidewalk before it quits snowing." From "Taste of Home" magazine.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michal Peri
How do you know what your kids did when you weren't around
to observe? Are you sure they never peeked? Are you *really* sure?
-- Michal, who did lots of things her parents don't know about
Ron & Sheila Kimball
says...
>>> In article <3ri6r4$e...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>,
wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com
>>> (thomas walter x5955) wrote:
>>
>>> > Toy Gun's.... hope this is not too much of a hot patato for
misc.kids. ;-)
>>> >
>>> AMEN! And now your lovely state allows concealed weapons --
progress...
>>
>>Yep. An if yous tinks yous can comes heres in Texass, and steel from
>>me, den yous got an udder ting coming. Like ma 357 Magnum wit dum dum
>>bullets.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Personally, John, I take offense to the above. Not all
>high school and know how to talk and spell correctly.
>
>to have concealed weapons, doesn't mean we all think that
>it is right. I for one don't agree with the law.
>
>Yes, we *did* have guns in our house. Locked in a cedar
>cabinet (without windows) with the key out of sight/out
>of reach. Now we don't have them anymore. One reason
>we had them was my husband goes deer hunting each year.
>He now uses a bow instead. And yes we do eat the vinison.
>I was raised on it - no cholestrol and saves a lot on
>meat at the grocery store. My husband sold the guns,
>because he found something he would rather spend the money
>on - a '65 Pontiac GTO. - Not that it is any of your
>business.
>
>Just venting.
>
>Cleota Gambino
>mama to C. J. and Trentyn
>pg 53 in '95 album
>
grew up with guns everywhere. As a previous poster said, there was no
curiosity b/c we were exposed to them alot and we NEVER had any urge to
play with them any more than we played with the lawnmower!!!
BTW, to the poster of the "texas" accent, get real!!! Texans have
southern accents, not Jersey ones!!!!!!
Sheila
John Cobarruvias
> In article <3ri6r4$e...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com
> (thomas walter x5955) wrote:
> > Toy Gun's.... hope this is not too much of a hot patato for misc.kids. ;-)
> >
> AMEN! And now your lovely state allows concealed weapons -- progress...
Yep. An if yous tinks yous can comes heres in Texass, and steel from
me, den yous got an udder ting coming. Like ma 357 Magnum wit dum dum
bullets.
And oh, buy da way, wecome two texass.
--
___ ____
/ _ \ | _ \
( (_| |_ ___ _ __ _ __ | |_) )
_ \ _ _) _ \| '_ \| |/ / | __/ John R. Cobarruvias
| |___| |( (_) ) | | | / / | | john...@blkbox.com
\_____/ \___/|_| | |__/ |_|
__ __ ___ | |
\ \ / / / _ \ |_|
\ v / ___ | |_) ) __ __ ___ ___ _ _ _________ _ __ ______
> < / _ \| _ < / \/ // _ \ / _ \| | | ( _____ ) |/ \/ / ._)
/ ^ ( (_) ) |_) | () <| |_) ) |_) ) |_| | |_/ \_| | ( () < () )
/_/ \_\___/| __/ \__/\_\ __/| __/ \___/ \___^___/ \_)__/\_\__/
| | | | | |
|_| |_| |_|
Marjorie Peskin
nuts, but I'll risk it again to reiterate my position. If you really
disagree, fine, but leave me alone because you aren't going to change my
position one iota.
Guns are bad things. They are not toys. Even toy guns are bad, imho. I
will never allow any kind of gun play in my home. I think as a parent
you are PERFECTLY within your rights to say, at the bottom of a party
invitation, NO TOY WEAPONS, PLEASE. If your friends disregard your
expressed wishes, they aren't great friends. I haven't had to do this
yet, but this year I think I may have to. My kids school has a strict
policy regarding war toys, guns, and action figures. They aren't allowed
on the premises, period. And, when the subject does come up, as it
inevitably will with preschoolers, the teachers have been trained in
redirecting the discussion gently. I've watched it and it works. Kids
start out talking about explodin' and bashin' and end up talking about
making lunch. Its cool!
From the time my kids comprehended a full sentence, I've been clear
about fighting, hitting, biting, spitting, etc. Recently, I have had to
add guns to the list, since our neighbors play with squirt guns. I have
had to remove squirt guns from our backyard, and have explained in great
detail WHY I don't like them. Guns hurt people, and our family never
wants to hurt anyone intentionally. I grew up this way by an avowed
pacifist (my mother) and I really believe in it.
I will not let my child play in a home where there is a gun, period. And
I will ask every friend's parents first thing if they keep guns. I
honestly believe that if we who are fearful of guns did this routinely,
parents that keep guns in their homes would be more apt to question the
safety of this decision. I have insisted that my cousin, who is
childless and who kept his service revolver from the early 60's in his
home, put the gun in his safety deposit box at the bank when my kids
come to visit. Its not loaded, it hasn't been fired in 30+ years, but I
don't want to expose them to guns ever.
A while ago a someone posted that her husband kept guns, but the
guns were unloaded, on the top shelf of the closet in a locked box,
while the ammunition was in another place, also locked away. I asked her
how on earth the gun could possibly protect her family in a breakin
situation. Did she think an armed intruder was going to wait while her
husband got the gun, got the ammunition, loaded the gun, and then
attacked? I think not. I really don't see any reason whatsoever for
keeping a gun in a house with children, nor do I trust any other
family's safety policies. I know my kids, and they WOULD touch and play
with guns, and they are just too precious to me to EVER, for any reason,
risk their safety.
--
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Marjorie Peskin mpe...@lynx.dac.neu.edu
Mum to Gemma and Graham Topaz, 8/24/92
---Chant of the unknown preschooler: "I can't, I can't, I can't, I DID IT"!!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JONNA L. HAMRICK
>From: mic...@gordian.com (Michal Peri)
>Subject: Re: toy guns (vent)
>Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 23:27:21 GMT
>JONNA L. HAMRICK (jham...@AFIT.AF.MIL) wrote:
>: And our children never did touch
>: them or sneak to peek at them, we took the curiousity away.
>How do you know what your kids did when you weren't around
>to observe? Are you sure they never peeked? Are you *really* sure?
Yes, I am really sure, because I know/knew where my children were. If we
weren't at home, the guns were locked up. And I didn't leave my children at
home alone. If a babysitter was there and we were out, the guns were locked
up and the key was on our person.
Kee
JONNA L. HAMRICK
>From: mpe...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Marjorie Peskin)
>Subject: Re: toy guns (vent)
>I've posted about this before and have been flamed royally by the gun
>nuts, but I'll risk it again to reiterate my position. If you really
>disagree, fine, but leave me alone because you aren't going to change my
>position one iota.
First, this is not a flame, just my comments.
>Guns are bad things. They are not toys. Even toy guns are bad, imho. I
>will never allow any kind of gun play in my home. I think as a parent
>you are PERFECTLY within your rights to say, at the bottom of a party
>invitation, NO TOY WEAPONS, PLEASE. If your friends disregard your
>expressed wishes, they aren't great friends.
We all have a right to feel the way we do and we should all respect others'
wishes. You should be comfortable mentioning that you don't want toy guns in
your house...your house, your rules.
> Guns hurt people, and our family never
>wants to hurt anyone intentionally. I grew up this way by an avowed
>pacifist (my mother) and I really believe in it.
This is where I disagree...People hurt people, many times the means for this
hurt is a gun or similar weapon.
I'm a firm believer in safety, responsibility, and education. And respecting
the feelings of others and never push my NRA afiliation off on someone else.
And as always, there are two sides to any story.
naomi pardue
> A while ago a someone posted that her husband kept guns, but the
> guns were unloaded, on the top shelf of the closet in a locked box,
> while the ammunition was in another place, also locked away. I asked her
> how on earth the gun could possibly protect her family in a breakin
> situation. Did she think an armed intruder was going to wait while her
> husband got the gun, got the ammunition, loaded the gun, and then
One obvious use for a gun in such a situation is that, when the adult
wants to go hunting, s/he can retrieve gun/ammo.
Paul Stoufflet
(Marjorie Peskin) wrote:
>I've posted about this before and have been flamed royally by the gun
>nuts, but I'll risk it again to reiterate my position. If you really
>disagree, fine, but leave me alone because you aren't going to change my
>position one iota.
I don't plan to change your position. You are certainly entitled to
any position you like that doesn't infringe on another person.
>Guns are bad things. They are not toys. Even toy guns are bad, imho. I
>will never allow any kind of gun play in my home. I think as a parent
>you are PERFECTLY within your rights to say, at the bottom of a party
>invitation, NO TOY WEAPONS, PLEASE. If your friends disregard your
>expressed wishes, they aren't great friends. I haven't had to do this
>yet, but this year I think I may have to. My kids school has a strict
>policy regarding war toys, guns, and action figures. They aren't allowed
>on the premises, period. And, when the subject does come up, as it
>inevitably will with preschoolers, the teachers have been trained in
>redirecting the discussion gently. I've watched it and it works. Kids
>start out talking about explodin' and bashin' and end up talking about
>making lunch. Its cool!
Guns are things. Bad people do bad things with guns, good people do
good things with guns. The gun has no say in the matter. There are
over 200 million guns in the US, and around 100,000 gunshot wounds
per year (according to the latest issue of the Journal of the AMA.
At most 1 in 2000 guns wounds a person in any given year. The rest
are used for target practice, hunting, sports, or defense. Whenever
a gun appears on the evening news, it is usually because somebody got shot.
Whenever a gun appears in a movie, it is a safe bet that somebody
will get shot. This is not reality, but a very distorted picture
of it.
Swimming pools kill far more children than guns, even though there
are far fewer pools. The average pool is FAR more likely to kill
a child than the average gun.
>From the time my kids comprehended a full sentence, I've been clear
>about fighting, hitting, biting, spitting, etc. Recently, I have had to
>add guns to the list, since our neighbors play with squirt guns. I have
>had to remove squirt guns from our backyard, and have explained in great
>detail WHY I don't like them. Guns hurt people, and our family never
>wants to hurt anyone intentionally. I grew up this way by an avowed
>pacifist (my mother) and I really believe in it.
I agree about toy guns being pointed at a person. I have not decided
about toy guns in my home yet, but I do not want anyone making that decision
for me. I have asked children in other homes to not point their
plastic guns at me, as it makes me uncomfortable. Guns are not toys.
For some reason, children playing with trucks drive them around,
but children playing with guns "shoot" other children. Where do they
learn this behavior?
Guns don't hurt people. I have been around guns for over 20 years,
and I've only got an occasional scrape or finger pinch. Never been
shot, never shot anyone else. Plan on keeping it that way.
>I will not let my child play in a home where there is a gun, period. And
>I will ask every friend's parents first thing if they keep guns. I
>honestly believe that if we who are fearful of guns did this routinely,
>parents that keep guns in their homes would be more apt to question the
>safety of this decision. I have insisted that my cousin, who is
>childless and who kept his service revolver from the early 60's in his
>home, put the gun in his safety deposit box at the bank when my kids
>come to visit. Its not loaded, it hasn't been fired in 30+ years, but I
>don't want to expose them to guns ever.
But they will be exposed to guns. They will see them on TV, they will
see them in movies, they will have playmates with toy guns, and they
will learn that guns are used to shoot people, a biased view.
If you wish them to lead a gun-free life, at least while they are
living at home, at least teach them what to do if they come across
a gun (toy or real, loaded or not):
- STOP
- Leave the area
- Tell an adult
>A while ago a someone posted that her husband kept guns, but the
>guns were unloaded, on the top shelf of the closet in a locked box,
>while the ammunition was in another place, also locked away. I asked her
>how on earth the gun could possibly protect her family in a breakin
>situation. Did she think an armed intruder was going to wait while her
>husband got the gun, got the ammunition, loaded the gun, and then
>attacked? I think not. I really don't see any reason whatsoever for
>keeping a gun in a house with children, nor do I trust any other
>family's safety policies. I know my kids, and they WOULD touch and play
>with guns, and they are just too precious to me to EVER, for any reason,
>risk their safety.
Many people use guns for other reasons than protection. Perhaps her
husband hunts or target shoots, most such firearms are not good for
self defense (although they are better than nothing).
About one half of all homes in the US have a firearm, although it is
probably lower in the Massachusetts Bay area.
Unfortunately, sometimes guns are necessary to save innocent lives.
Firearms are used 600,000 - 1 million times a year to PREVENT crimes,
more often than they are used in crimes. 75% of people sustaining
gunshot wounds live in "large cities". If you want to make your
children safer, move to the country. But be careful, there are a lot
more guns in the country than in the city. They just aren't misused
as much.
Now if you think this was a flame, I'm sorry. I am not flaming you.
I am responding to a one-sided view of guns with the other side.
Finally, if you would like to go to a rifle range and see a peacable
use of firearms in target shooting, email me. You might enjoy it,
everyone else I have taken has, including my wife who had never touched
a gun before.
-Paul (father to Nadia age 21 months)
--
Paul Stoufflet Don't tread on me
Decision Systems Group
Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston
psto...@dsg.harvard.edu
Sarah Louise Duris
My son is still too young for toy guns, but I have worried about this
issue for the future. I DO NOT want toy guns in my home. I do not want
my son to think ANY gun is a toy. A back issue of Parents Magazine (I
think) had a very good article addressing this issue. It stemmed from
the author's 6-yr-old son talking about the gun at his friend's house.
The parent, obviously, was shocked. She (I think) tried to talk with
this friend's mother, asking whether the gun was locked up, how the kids
got a hold of it, etc. The friend's mother was uncooperative. The
solution for the author was to say that her child's friend was welcome at
their home as always, but that her own son would not be visiting at his
friend's. I agree that this is the best solution.
FYI, I grew up around guns. My father had a whole bunch of them around
the house, that he used for hunting. Some of these were even loaded.
While I tried to avoid them (ie, I knew better), my brothers were
fascinated by them. I distinctly remember the terror of having a loaded
gun pointed at me by one of my younger brothers. Fortunately, it did not
end in tragedy; however, every year, such situations do. Young children
do not have the maturity to understand the danger guns present. We can
start to teach them this by teaching them to avoid all guns, even toy
guns.
Sarah Duris (e-mail du...@sfu.ca)
All flames will be publicly posted
Kevran Day (day_k...@tandem.com) wrote:
: In article <3ri6r4$e...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com
: (thomas walter x5955) wrote:
: > Toy Gun's.... hope this is not too much of a hot patato for misc.kids. ;-)
: >
: > We have always made a point NOT to have toy guns in the house (or
: > real ones, for that matter). So at our son's 5th birthday party
: > a friend gave our son a set of plastic toy pistols (THEIR SON
: > picked it out for him.) Since it was his birthday party, we just
: > said "thanks" and put them away.
: We just went through this also. No one gave guns but we had a tank engine
: with machine gun on top and a batman super duper plane that shoots some
: "thing" off the nose and a Power Rangers playdoh set. The other things he
: received were all very reasonable. Since he received the war type toys,
: his play at home has been far less imaginative.
: [Snip]
Constance Stillinger
>Guns are things. Bad people do bad things with guns, good people do
>good things with guns. The gun has no say in the matter.
This argument is made over and over and over in one form or another.
However it contradicts a *mass* of EVIDENCE that *good* people will do
horrendous things when the *circumstances* facilitate it (and *bad*
people will do saintly things when the circumstances facilitate that).
Having a deadly weapon handy constitutes a circumstance that
facilitates violence (and makes accidents more likely as well).
The "guns don't hurt people..." argument is specious. I have
considerably more respect for the argument that gun-control
represents an unacceptable infringement on civil liberties.
Connie
--
Dr. Constance A. (Chana) Stillinger c...@ockham.stanford.edu
EPGY, Stanford University Morris's Mommy choo choo choo choo choo
Tamara Shaffer
c...@astro.as.utexas.edu (Cleota Gambino) writes:
>In article <3rilca$g...@news.blkbox.com>,
>John Cobarruvias <john...@blkbox.com> wrote:
>>> In article <3ri6r4$e...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com
>>> (thomas walter x5955) wrote:
>>
>>> > Toy Gun's.... hope this is not too much of a hot patato for misc.kids. ;-)
>>> >
>>
>>Yep. An if yous tinks yous can comes heres in Texass, and steel from
>>me, den yous got an udder ting coming. Like ma 357 Magnum wit dum dum
>>bullets.
>>
>>And oh, buy da way, wecome two texass.
>>
>>
>
>Texans sound that dumb. Most of us have graduated from
>high school and know how to talk and spell correctly.
>
>Just because our legislature thinks it is better for us
>to have concealed weapons, doesn't mean we all think that
>it is right. I for one don't agree with the law.
>
>Yes, we *did* have guns in our house. Locked in a cedar
>cabinet (without windows) with the key out of sight/out
>of reach. Now we don't have them anymore. One reason
>we had them was my husband goes deer hunting each year.
>He now uses a bow instead. And yes we do eat the vinison.
>I was raised on it - no cholestrol and saves a lot on
>meat at the grocery store. My husband sold the guns,
>because he found something he would rather spend the money
>on - a '65 Pontiac GTO. - Not that it is any of your
>business.
>
>Just venting.
>
>Cleota Gambino
>mama to C. J. and Trentyn
>pg 53 in '95 album
>
While I do not fully support the new bill either, I feel better about
people who are licensed and trained and interested in reducing crime
carrying concealed weapons than just the criminals carrying them.
Greetings from Texas which is indeed lovely.
--
TAMARA
mommy to Melissa (5/1/91) and Sarah (5/3/93)
JONNA L. HAMRICK
>From: c...@Ockham.Stanford.EDU (Constance Stillinger)
>Subject: Re: toy guns (vent)
>In <pstouffl-140...@134.174.81.92> psto...@dsg.harvard.edu (Paul Stoufflet) writes:
>>Guns are things. Bad people do bad things with guns, good people do
>>good things with guns. The gun has no say in the matter.
>This argument is made over and over and over in one form or another.
>However it contradicts a *mass* of EVIDENCE that *good* people will do
>horrendous things when the *circumstances* facilitate it (and *bad*
>people will do saintly things when the circumstances facilitate that).
>Having a deadly weapon handy constitutes a circumstance that
>facilitates violence (and makes accidents more likely as well).
That's right, just like a knife, hammer, letter opener, stapler, candlestick,
rock....etc. Being responsible is the key.
>The "guns don't hurt people..." argument is specious. I have
>considerably more respect for the argument that gun-control
>represents an unacceptable infringement on civil liberties.
>Connie
>--
>Dr. Constance A. (Chana) Stillinger c...@ockham.stanford.edu
>EPGY, Stanford University Morris's Mommy choo choo choo choo choo
=====================================================================
Paul Stoufflet
(Constance Stillinger) wrote:
>In <pstouffl-140...@134.174.81.92> psto...@dsg.harvard.edu
(Paul Stoufflet) writes:
>
>>Guns are things. Bad people do bad things with guns, good people do
>>good things with guns. The gun has no say in the matter.
>
>This argument is made over and over and over in one form or another.
>However it contradicts a *mass* of EVIDENCE that *good* people will do
>horrendous things when the *circumstances* facilitate it (and *bad*
>people will do saintly things when the circumstances facilitate that).
I'm not too sure what you mean here. People do what circumstances
facilitate? I hope not. I like to think that people have some
moral compass that tells them that shooting the guy who cut them
off in traffic is a bad idea, even if they are carrying a gun.
Similarly ramming them is a bad idea, even though they are in
a car and need merely step on the accelerator.
>Having a deadly weapon handy constitutes a circumstance that
>facilitates violence (and makes accidents more likely as well).
I submit that there is no good evidence that this is true.
Restricting deadly weapons from citizens who obey gun control
laws appears to increase homicide rates, as in Washington DC,
since the criminals don't bother to obey the prohibition on
handgun possession.
However, states which allow citizens (no criminal or significant
mental illness history, of a certain age) to carry concealed weapons
have NOT experienced any rise in crime or homicides. In Florida
the homicide rate fell 26% and is now below the national average.
So "having a deadly weapon handy" does not appear to facilitate
violence.
>The "guns don't hurt people..." argument is specious. I have
>considerably more respect for the argument that gun-control
>represents an unacceptable infringement on civil liberties.
The "guns don't hurt people..." argument reminds one that
except for accidents, it requires a conscious act on the part
of a human being to inflict a gunshot wound on a human being.
Banning or controlling guns does not address the motivations
behind that act, but if the victim is thus disarmed it may
facilitate the act.
I agree that the Civil Liberties aspect of gun control is
important, just as important as any other aspect. Unfortunately
the ACLU does not agree that it is an issue.
-Paul
Andy Katz
>
>My husband's parents allowed him to have a toy cap gun and he says
>that it taught him gun safety because their #1 rule was that he never
>ever point it at anyone. If they ever saw him point it at someone,
>he would have it taken away.
Oh Lynda,
You're right. I like handguns, and have owned more than a
dozen over the years. I kept one in a spring holster bolted to
the headboard of our bed for many years. They were awfully
nice to have during the LA Riots, and when gangbangers
moved temporarily onto our block. I taught pistolcraft and
safety years ago. But when Aaron, at about 20 months,
climbed on my chest and placed an exploring hand on the
Pachmyer grip of the .38, I knew it was time to bid them
adieu. I sold the two we had and replaced them with a
little league slugger as my principle attitude adjustment
device for those times when unexpected company drops
in.
I'll buy guns again--when the little one is safely off to college.
I do believe kids should be taught to shoot and handle
weapons. Your husband's point is a good one. Guns are
a fact of American society and even kids whose parents
don't approve of them at all should see to it that they know
basic safety. In LA, hardware can be found lining the
gutters after a busy night, so one never knows how and
when kids might encounter a weapon, and if even one in
a group knows how to unload it, that could save a life.
Anyone who keeps a loaded weapon in a drawer and
assumes kids can't operate is criminally negligent. Kids
always know more about anything than any adult could
reasonably infer from their age and experience.
I think rifles and shotguns are easier to mind. But I know
from experience that if my parents had had a gun in the
house when I was growing up, I would have had it too.
Nothing would have been able to keep me from it for
very long. I have to assume the worst and figure Aaron'll
be like me.
I did, however, just buy him a Supersoaker XP 55.
Superb weapon! Unmatched range and accuracy, with
an adequate magazine. Most unbelievably, he's had
it nearly a month and it still works...!
If only Smith & Wesson had such quality control.
Andy Katz
Andy Katz
>>
>I just wanted to thank you for standing up for Texans!!! I'm from TX and
>grew up with guns everywhere. As a previous poster said, there was no
>curiosity b/c we were exposed to them alot and we NEVER had any urge to
>play with them any more than we played with the lawnmower!!!
This is a good point, actually. I was raised in a house where guns
were a strict no no. I was fascinated by them and dreamed of the
day when I might own one of own. The California legislature made
me wait till I was 21. It was worth it. We had guns in the house for
many years, then Aaron, before he knew how to talk, told me I had
best get rid of them. So I did. I still, however, want him to learn how
to shoot and operate weapons. With this concealed weapons bill
in the Texas legislature, folks might just be leaving their hardware
heaven knows where.
>
>BTW, to the poster of the "texas" accent, get real!!! Texans have
>southern accents, not Jersey ones!!!!!!
In the South?!
Is that why the weather's so darned humid here?
Andy Katz
Andy Katz
point about her view of firearms. I don't agree because
not all guns are used for malign purposes. Nevertheless,
I had no problem ridding my home (in Hollywood!) of guns
before my son's second birthday.
I do believe children should be exposed to firearm safety
and the basic operation of weapons for the same reasons
children should be taught about safe sex and the dangers
inherent in behaviors like needle sharing: not to encourage
their participation in such activities, but to protect their lives,
even should the arc of their existences carry outside of the
values taught by their parents.
Here in South Texas crime in negligible compared to
Los Angeles. A concealed weapons bill works its way
through the Texas legislature and the governer promises
to sign it. Now, without real criminals to shoot at, like they
have in South Florida or LA, I worry about this. Folks will
carry their hardware and if they do, they'll want to use it.
Most people have no idea how far a medium velocity
bullet can travel and how much it can penetrate before
coming to rest. I don't fear malice so much as carelessness.
A bill like this may also increase the liklihood of guns
getting misplaced. Ask any plainclothes cop. It takes
practice and some trial and error to carry a weapon in
a small holster successfully. People may lose them on
buses or restaurants or any public place, especially
where sitting is customary. Because such weapons
will certainly be loaded, I'd want my son to know how
to check it safely and unload it. Telling kids to leave
the area and find an adult is fine, but if they're in a group
of other kids it may not be enough.
Andy "Oh save me from South Texas!" Katz
Fungus The Bogeyman
>Marjorie Peskin (mpe...@lynx.dac.neu.edu) wrote:
>> A while ago a someone posted that her husband kept guns, but the
>> guns were unloaded, on the top shelf of the closet in a locked box,
>> while the ammunition was in another place, also locked away. I asked her
>> how on earth the gun could possibly protect her family in a breakin
>> situation. Did she think an armed intruder was going to wait while her
>> husband got the gun, got the ammunition, loaded the gun, and then
>One obvious use for a gun in such a situation is that, when the adult
>wants to go hunting, s/he can retrieve gun/ammo.
The 10-year-old who blew his brains out on the front steps of his elementary
school in California while the other students were entering retrieved the
pistol and ammunition from separate locked containers in his home.
I think the "guns as protection" argument is a bit specious. When we lived in
LA, people were killed: sitting in their living rooms when high-power rounds
came through the walls; getting into their cars at the local Safeway (corner
of Pico and Lincoln in Santa Monica) when rounds fired almost a mile away in
Venice fell from the sky; running into the front yard or down the street in
front of their houses (numerous small drive-by victims); stopping their
cars at "safe" Westside neighbourhood stoplights; and sitting next to a
student whose pistol-containing backpack dropped to the ground. Hard to see
how owning or carrying a weapon could have protected them. I realize these
are just incidents, but they aren't all that isolated (with weekend deathrates
from gunshots running in the mid-20's week after week), and they *do* affect
people's feelings of safety.
Fungus
thomas walter x5955
>I taught pistolcraft and
>safety years ago.
[snip to save space]
>basic safety. In LA, hardware can be found lining the
>gutters after a busy night, so one never knows how and
>when kids might encounter a weapon, and if even one in
>a group knows how to unload it, that could save a life.
Interesting thought! Admitted a skill level for a four
year old is quite different from a 15 year old. I
have friends who do Olympic shooting - one of the pistols
has a 5 gram trigger... admitted something you'd never
find laying in a gutter, but just MOVING the weapon if
loaded could trigger it. For my five year old... I'll
explain not to touch it. When he is 15, it would be a
different matter.
Quite a good bit of feed back from my original post.
Quick recap:
If you do not like any weapon, toys, etc. in your house
then putting a note on the bottom of a birthday card
with "no toy weapons, please" should be more than acceptable
for your 5 year old's birthday party.
Also "check you toy guns" at the door. Your house, and
if that is the house rule, that is acceptable.
If toy guns are acceptable, the "no pointing at any
person or animal".
If guns are kept in the house: keep the bullets seperate,
and BOTH guns and bullets locked up.
Never assume a child will not touch a weapon when you
are not in the room!
If you have weapons in the house, teach them gun safety.
Always ASSUME any weapon is loaded! (never keep it loaded,
but what if a 'rascal' loaded it?).
If at a friends house, Do NOT handle any weapon. If another
child wants to 'play with it' leave and call US immediately
(our oldest is 5... like me, I love mechanical things...
so I want him to understand not to handle ANY weapon UNLESS
I am present. No I do not have guns in the house, but I
do metal work... other night a neighbor asked if I could
machine something for him... turned out to be a gun sight. ;-(
[When talking with a coworker, they mentioned finding GUNS during
a community clean up project! Thankfully one girl knew not to
pick it up, and left it there. Police were called, and they came
to pick it up... i.e. if tossed onto the side of the road, someone
wanted to get rid of it quickly. ;-( ].
Cheers,
Tom
Nigel Higgs
British point of view I find the 'self-protection' reason for carrying
a gun rather pointless. It would seem to me to lead to escalation -
"if I have a gun and you have a gun we can both take pot shots at each
other.... " But what about the poor sods (eng. Colq.) in the middle.
If everyone carries guns then there will be more accidents. When it
comes down to it a gun is an implement - a tool, its the people who
hold it or have it in their possesion who are dangerous. So if it is
the people who are dangerous why let them be more dangerous by allowing
them to carry a gun!
Another arguement may be: If a person is going to carry a gun then
they should be prepared to use it. If they are prepared to carry and use
a gun then they shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun. If they aren't
prepared to and have no intention to use it why do they NEED to carry a
gun?
Or maybe I'm missing something.
Nigel Higgs EMail: Ni...@actor.demon.co.uk
Actors Mean Business Tel/fax: (+44) 0121 355 4554
"The mind is like a parachute - it works better when its open....."
Michelle Thomas
people kill" seems specious to me. Where I live there are incredible
numbers of people killed all the time by guns, and it isn't always
murder. How about the 16 year old boy who was showing his new pistol to
his mother, father and five siblings and managed to kill a brother? This
scenario happens with depressing frequency here and the people
involved always
are heartbroken and surprised. Heartbroken I understand, surprised is a
little more difficult. One year there were 13 children killed by guns
before the end of February. Obviously, a lot of people are not respon-
sible, protests to the contrary.
There was a case in the recent past where a vis-
itor to Houston was drunk and knocked on someone's door. From inside the
house the homeowner called 911 and then shot through the door, killing
the man. His family in Scotland still cannot believe this happened.
Neither do I. I can understand why you might feel constrained to defend
yourself with a weapon IF someone broke into your house. But having
access to 911, why the man did not wait until he was actually threatened
is beyond me. Knocking on a door is different from trying to break in
to a door or window.
Michele Thomas
Kath Oltsher
>
>In article <3ri6r4$e...@newsgate.sps.mot.com> wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com
>>From: wal...@roadster.sps.mot.com (thomas walter x5955)
>>Subject: toy guns (vent)
>>Date: 12 Jun 1995 20:08:04 GMT
>
>{toy gun snip}
>
>>should be always stored unloaded and kept locked up! A neighbor
>>keeps a 9mm loaded in a drawer... when I asked about it being loaded
>>with kids in the house, came the reply "they don't know how to cock
>>it, and it they ever touched it they know I would 'spank their but'
>>--- err, I just KNOW kids a curious, especially when you tell them
>>something is off limits! (how many of you remember being a little
>>sneaky about that "off limits" stuff!)
>
>EXACTLY! If it's made out to be mysterious and off limits, kids will sneak
>and check it out on their own. When I was married, we owned guns, they were
>always locked away. We showed them to our kids, let them hold them (unloaded
>of course) and explained the dangers of guns...EXPLICITLY. Guns don't kill
>ppl, ppl kill ppl whether its with a gun or a kitchen knife or their bare
>
>was, I knew it was loaded, I knew it was off limits. I would always 'help'
>him clean his guns and when I got older, he took me shooting, never did I
>sneak and handle his guns...no curiosity
>
>
>=====================================================================
when it comes to safety I take the same position on guns, in homes or
anywhere that I have on water safety. Educate, educate,educate and at
the same time keep it locked and barred and as unusable as possible.
For pools this means fences, locks and alarms for guns this means
unloaded, disabled and or locked up and inaccesible. Kids are kids and
they need all the help they can get to avoid making life threatening
mistakes. To me, letting my children play in a home were a loaded gun
was this easily available would be the same as letting my children play
in a home where there was an unfenced, unsupervised pool because the
owners felt that "hey, they know better than to play there, besides I'll
smack them if they do!" Tragedy occurs and then what you smack an injured
or dead child? Personal experience is important in decision making but
when it comes to kids, they come in so many varieties and are so different
from each other that I don't beleive you can count on what worked with one
to be the norm. The point behind things like cupboard locks etc. is to
slow kids down, even with guns stored the way I prefer to see them stored
I am sure that somewhere there is a kid who will try their darndest to
unlock, and peice together a gun! There, I feel better...should I post
this? Yeah, what the heck...my opinion and proud of it!
Kath (parent to Dylan 4 1/2 and Katie 1 1/2 and dayhome provider to
Tyson,5,& Riley,6, & Bowman,11,-they said they wanted to see their
names here too!
Paul Stoufflet
<mth...@bite.db.uth.tmc.edu> wrote:
> There was a case in the recent past where a vis-
>itor to Houston was drunk and knocked on someone's door. From inside the
>house the homeowner called 911 and then shot through the door, killing
>the man. His family in Scotland still cannot believe this happened.
>Neither do I. I can understand why you might feel constrained to defend
>yourself with a weapon IF someone broke into your house. But having
>access to 911, why the man did not wait until he was actually threatened
>is beyond me. Knocking on a door is different from trying to break in
>to a door or window.
The man in question knocked on the front door of the house, then hid
in the bushes. He repeated this behavior. At this point the homeowner
became concerned, called 911, and retrieved a handgun. The man went
around to the back of the house and hammered on the back door with his
fist, demanding to be let in, and damaging the door in the process. At
this point, the homeowner, in fear of his life (there had been several
home invasions in Houston at the time) fired through the door, striking
the intruder and causing his death.
The man felt constrained to defend himself with a weapon, as an invader
was breaking through a door.
The DA declined to press charges, and the shooting was ruled
justifiable.
Diane Wells
1st is this thread about toy guns or real guns? It seems to be mixed.
My comment is about toy guns. I am trying very hard not to buy my son
anything violent, including Ninja turtle stuff and those Morphin
things. However, we have one of those big water guns to squirt at
stray animals that come into our yard (we recently had a stray German
Shepard jump on our 2 yo and knock him down. I was not happy.) It
seems the only defense we have against strays. Anyway, whenever Sam
gets a hold of it, which is rare, i let him know its not a toy.
A week or two ago we had a garage sale. My SIL sent a lot of old toys
from her sons which included a lot of guns, army stuff, etc. There was
no way I could display this stuff for sale and keep it away from Sam
and his friends so Sam learned to "shoot" much to my dismay. Well, we
got rid of all that stuff and I though I was okay until yesterday...
Sam picked up a stick that "resembled" a gun and began to "shoot." Now
I know that he is going to learn a lot more than this as he gets older
and makes new friends at school. My question is "Exactly how to let
him know that playing guns etc. is not really acceptable play"
Especially when his friends are doing it. AND we had water pistols and
played army when we were young.
--
Netfully Yours
Diane Wells
Samsmom 7-14-93
naomi pardue
> In article <3rmue0$c...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (naomi pardue) writes:
> >> A while ago a someone posted that her husband kept guns, but the
> >> guns were unloaded, on the top shelf of the closet in a locked box,
> >> while the ammunition was in another place, also locked away. I asked her
> >One obvious use for a gun in such a situation is that, when the adult
> >wants to go hunting, s/he can retrieve gun/ammo.
> The 10-year-old who blew his brains out on the front steps of his elementary
> school in California while the other students were entering retrieved the
> pistol and ammunition from separate locked containers in his home.
If a child is determined enough to commit suicide that he is going to
take the keys from his parent's wallet, climb up, retrieve the gun and
ammo from separate locked containers, load rifle and take it to school,
somehow keeping gun hidden from all bystanders; he is determined enough
to find some other method to kill himself if the gun was not in the
house. (And
if said gun was NOT a hunting rifle, why else was it in the house? As
Marjorie noted, if it was for protection, how could it possibly help if
it was kept locked up?)
Naomi
Jan Silbermann
naomi pardue <npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>> >> A while ago a someone posted that her husband kept guns, but the
>> >> guns were unloaded, on the top shelf of the closet in a locked box,
>> >> while the ammunition was in another place, also locked away. I asked her
>Marjorie noted, if it was for protection, how could it possibly help if
>it was kept locked up?)
That was me she was posting about (right, Marjorie?). Our apartment
house is fairly safe and hard to gain access to. An assailant would have to
pass four doors in a lit hallway to get to our apartment. I don't feel
the need to have the guns accessible in such a situation. I, do,
however, definately feel the need to carry a gun with me when I go
out alone at night. This is a very dangerous city and there are times I need
to be out at night (so no one suggest that I just stay home). I don't
take it when I have the kids and feel that it should be locked up when
I am at home. So, there is a legitimate use for a gun locked in a closet.
My kids have been taught gun safety and will be taken to the range when
they are old enough. They are allowed touch our guns when they ask.
They are told never to even point a toy gun at another person.
When they see guns on TV, they are told that guns kill people
and are not to be touched unless they ask us. They have watched 'Eddie
Eagle' tons of times. I teach them safety. I also teach them swimming
pool safety, cleaning product safety, knife safety, car safety etc..
They are going to encounter all of the above and it is my duty to make them
prepared, not to hide my head in the sand.
Jan
Fungus The Bogeyman
There's a concern specific to toy guns in a world of real guns - one may be
mistaken for the other. Two years ago in South Central LA a policeman
investigating a apparantly-deserted apartment whose door had been broken down
shot and killed a 10-year old who emerged from one of the rooms carrying a toy
pistol. The policeman was devastated, but to what avail? Could anyone really
fault him for what he'd done?
Andy Katz
>
>In article <3rsii9$8...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>,
>thomas walter x5955 <wal...@roadster.UUCP> wrote:
>
>I'd question teaching children to pick up and unload a
>found weapon. Consider the chances that the weapon might be
>poorly maintained (I've not seen gutter storage suggested
>as a valid approach to lubrication) or possible evidence,
>and that picking it up would likely violate laws in many
>municipal areas. Even for an adult, "leave it there and
>notify law enforcement authorities" would seem to be the
>best approach in LA. And despite moderate familiarity with
>handguns, I know I had a devil of a time figuring out how
>to unload a Luger the first time I saw one.
Very good point. It certainly is best to leave found weapons
untouched--I mean, who wants their fingerprints on what
might be a murder weapon anyway? But I can only teach
my own child effectively. Were he in a group of others who
had not been similarly taught, he could still suffer the
consequences of another's error. I don't worry about it
at this stage because he won't be out on the streets
without me or his mother for a while yet. I don't even know
when his first shooting lesson might be, probably not for
another six or seven years. But I do think even when
parents believe firearms have no legitimate purpose in
modern society, some basic training in their safe handling
is as important as teaching the consequences of
unprotected sex for their children. More so perhaps,
because it seems to be lots harder for parents to instill
permanent attitudes about firearms into their children
than it is to make them sexually neurotic.
Andy Katz
naomi pardue
> In article <3rsii9$8...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>,
> thomas walter x5955 <wal...@roadster.UUCP> wrote:
> >In article <3rq9tq$b...@empire.texas.net> a...@texasnet.com (Andy Katz) writes:
> >If you do not like any weapon, toys, etc. in your house
> >then putting a note on the bottom of a birthday card
> >with "no toy weapons, please" should be more than acceptable
> >for your 5 year old's birthday party.
> Actually, the violation of etiquette here is not in the
> enforcement of house rules--it is in the presumption that
> gifts are expected. As Miss Manners hammers home year
> after year, gifts are never required in reciprocation for
> a party invitation (including weddings) and any reference
> to such gifts, including a request that they *not* be given,
> is a breach of etiquette.
This is one area in which I disagree with Miss Manners. I believe that
there are certain events, children's b-day parties and weddings being
the two biggies, where EVERYONE KNOWS that a gift is normally expected.
I see nothing rude about noting that certain types of gifts are
unacceptable, or that the honoree requests that no gifts be brought at
all. (It is absurd to assume that the invitee will not think to buy a
gift if the subject isn't mentioned.) As a recipeint, I much prefer to
receive things that i can use. (Rather than having to throw them
out/give them to good will, or whatever.) As a giver, I like to give
things that will be wanted and appreciated. (And will not be thrown out
or given to good will!) And if, (as is often the case as adult parties),
the party giver truly does not want a gift, I am grateful to be spared
the hassle of shopping and the expense of purchasing a gift that will,
again, be thrown out or given to good will! (If i want to give to
charity I will do so myself, without shelling out big bucks for wrapping
papers and ribbon!)
Naomi
Christopher Biow
thomas walter x5955 <wal...@roadster.UUCP> wrote:
>In article <3rq9tq$b...@empire.texas.net> a...@texasnet.com (Andy Katz) writes:
>>basic safety. In LA, hardware can be found lining the
>>gutters after a busy night, so one never knows how and
>>when kids might encounter a weapon, and if even one in
>>a group knows how to unload it, that could save a life.
I'd question teaching children to pick up and unload a
found weapon. Consider the chances that the weapon might be
poorly maintained (I've not seen gutter storage suggested
as a valid approach to lubrication) or possible evidence,
and that picking it up would likely violate laws in many
municipal areas. Even for an adult, "leave it there and
notify law enforcement authorities" would seem to be the
best approach in LA. And despite moderate familiarity with
handguns, I know I had a devil of a time figuring out how
to unload a Luger the first time I saw one.
>Quick recap:
>If you do not like any weapon, toys, etc. in your house
>then putting a note on the bottom of a birthday card
>with "no toy weapons, please" should be more than acceptable
>for your 5 year old's birthday party.
Actually, the violation of etiquette here is not in the
enforcement of house rules--it is in the presumption that
gifts are expected. As Miss Manners hammers home year
after year, gifts are never required in reciprocation for
a party invitation (including weddings) and any reference
to such gifts, including a request that they *not* be given,
is a breach of etiquette.
That said, many people believe that one or another opinion
that they hold warrants breaching etiquette.
>Also "check you toy guns" at the door. Your house, and
>if that is the house rule, that is acceptable.
That is certainly the case. I'd even suppose the one could
simply state the house rule against toy weapons in the
invitation (if only as a matter of dress), thus circumventing
the entire question of toy weapons as gifts.
Lynn & Joel Gazis-Sax
>Path: news1.best.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!ezinfo!npardue
>From: npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (naomi pardue)
>Newsgroups: misc.kids
>Subject: Re: Gift etiquette (was toy guns)
>This is one area in which I disagree with Miss Manners. I believe that
>there are certain events, children's b-day parties and weddings being
>the two biggies, where EVERYONE KNOWS that a gift is normally expected.
>I see nothing rude about noting that certain types of gifts are
>unacceptable, or that the honoree requests that no gifts be brought at
>all. (It is absurd to assume that the invitee will not think to buy a
>gift if the subject isn't mentioned.)
I actually do try to follow Miss Manners' rules when it comes to adult gifts.
I figure the worst that can happen from my not volunteering which gifts I
would or wouldn't like is that I'll get a gift I don't much care for - not
that big a deal (and generally, I'm happy with whatever people give me
anyway). But, what worries me about following it where children are involved
is that the alternatives to a "no guns please" statement look possibly worse -
it would be terribly rude to give the gun back to the child bringing it, and
having my child receive the gun, be thankful in public, and then dispose of it
in private seems a lot harder than not having the toy gun cross my doorstep to
begin with. I'm sure people who know me wouldn't give any child of mine toy
weapons to begin with, since I am Quaker, but parents of kids my child might
know from school wouldn't know. So, for those people who do follow Miss
Manners' advice, how do you deal with presents which violate your religious
beliefs?
Lynn Gazis-Sax (still childless, and not looking forward to action figures)
Jo Pitesky UCLA Astronomy
naomi pardue <npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>Christopher Biow (bi...@cs.umd.edu) wrote:
>> In article <3rsii9$8...@newsgate.sps.mot.com>,
>> thomas walter x5955 <wal...@roadster.UUCP> wrote:
>
>> >If you do not like any weapon, toys, etc. in your house
>> >then putting a note on the bottom of a birthday card
>> >with "no toy weapons, please" should be more than acceptable
>> >for your 5 year old's birthday party.
>
>> Actually, the violation of etiquette here is not in the
>> enforcement of house rules--it is in the presumption that
>> gifts are expected. As Miss Manners hammers home year
>> after year, gifts are never required in reciprocation for
>> a party invitation (including weddings) and any reference
>> to such gifts, including a request that they *not* be given,
>> is a breach of etiquette.
>
>there are certain events, children's b-day parties and weddings being
>the two biggies, where EVERYONE KNOWS that a gift is normally expected.
Well, you're actually in agreement with Miss Manners as far as
children's birthday parties go (we won't get into the wedding
story here), since she refers to present unwrapping as being
part of the entertainment at a child's birthday party.
Anyway, here is what the divine Miss M has to say about the
issue (from Miss Manners' Guide for the Turn of the Millenium):
Dear Miss Manners:
I am planning to have a party for my daughter's third birthday. Is
there a polite way to tell the guests, if they are planning to bring
a gift, to bring a book for her? She has a closet full of stuffed
animals that she never plays with.
Gentle Reader:
There is a way to do this, but Miss Manners won't tell you what it
is unless you promise not to allow this child to grow up with the
idea that she can demand cash payments on graduations and
anniversaries on the grounds that she doesn't want all that junk
that people might think of themselves to give her. Is that agreed?
For childhood birthday use only, you may declare a literary theme
party. Send out invitations with pictures of books or characters
from children's books and call it something cute, such as "a
little Great Books party." That should give them the idea.
Miss Maners requests you to teach your daughter that she
must welcome all presents with equal warmth.
I also like where MM refers to there being two types of presents:
those that the parent likes, and those that the children wants ;-)
Jo Pitesky
pit...@bonnie.astro.ucla.edu
Christopher Biow
Lynn & Joel Gazis-Sax <gazi...@best.com> wrote:
>So, for those people who do follow Miss
>Manners' advice, how do you deal with presents which violate your religious
>beliefs?
In the case of the party invitations, I've already mentioned
my alternative: simply request "no toy weapons" in specifying
dress for the party. That will implicitly cover gifts.
If a toy is received that you believe to be inappropriate,
it would certainly be terribly crass to refuse it. Yes, the
child may be disappointed later when he learns that he can't
keep it, but the explanation of why it is inappropriate
(according to your beliefs and rules) and why it was accepted
anyway is what they call a "teachable moment."
Kathleen Cooke
> In article <3s4oea$4...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
> naomi pardue <npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
> >Christopher Biow (bi...@cs.umd.edu) wrote:
>>
> >This is one area in which I disagree with Miss Manners. I believe that
> >there are certain events, children's b-day parties and weddings being
> >the two biggies, where EVERYONE KNOWS that a gift is normally expected.
>
> Well, you're actually in agreement with Miss Manners as far as
> children's birthday parties go (we won't get into the wedding
> story here), since she refers to present unwrapping as being
> part of the entertainment at a child's birthday party.
I am having a birthday party for my 2 yr old this weekend. Proper ettiquitte or not.....
I put a note on the bottom of the invite..."while no gift is expected, if you do want to bring a treat for Ian, we
will be buying him a Brio train set, so any additional cars or accessories would be great. He also loves
books."
I know that its hard to buy a present for a kid with a roomfull of toys....and I hate geting stupid presents for
him.This way people have an idea and can add to the theme. BTW this party was billed as a
party "Celebrating two years of parenthood". It will be mainly our friends, some kids - maim\nly older that
our boy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.\\.|.//.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kathleen Cooke "Even if you're on the right track,
Technical Recruiter you'll get run over,
CINTECH Corporation if you just sit there."
335 Parkplace Ste 109 Will Greer
Kirkland WA 98033 ____________________________
FAX 206/828-9697 kco...@cintech.com
Phone 206/828-6220
Martha Blum Lindstrom
Cooke) wrote:
> I am having a birthday party for my 2 yr old this weekend. Proper
ettiquitte or not.....
> I put a note on the bottom of the invite..."while no gift is expected,
if you do want to bring a treat for Ian, we
> will be buying him a Brio train set, so any additional cars or
accessories would be great. He also loves
> books."
Gosh, this really rubs me the wrong way. Because I have some very
stubborn German blood in me, I would probably a totally different gift
just to see what you would do! What we do is keep a list of toys we think
Sarah would like, and when someone asks for hints, we tell them. Since
she has two sets of grandparents, and a gaggle of aunts and uncles this is
really helpful, and THEY ask; I don't tell them what to buy.
> I know that its hard to buy a present for a kid with a roomfull of
toys....and I hate geting stupid presents for
> him.This way people have an idea and can add to the theme. BTW this
party was billed as a
> party "Celebrating two years of parenthood". It will be mainly our
friends, some kids - maim\nly older that
> our boy.
Why do you find some presents "stupid"? I may find a gift inapprorpiate
and not something I personally would buy, but I do feel that you accept
all gifts graciously because somebody thought you would like the gift. At
a later time, if the gift is still inappropriate, exchange it or donate it
to a shelter.
Martha
--
.sig under construction but you can reach me at mbli...@facstaff.wisc.edu
Jo Pitesky UCLA Astronomy
Martha Blum Lindstrom <mbli...@facstaff.wisc.edu> wrote:
>In article <3s7jk5$r...@kaleka.seanet.com>, kco...@cintech.com(Kathleen
>Cooke) wrote:
>
>> I know that its hard to buy a present for a kid with a roomfull of
>toys....and I hate geting stupid presents for
>
>Why do you find some presents "stupid"? I may find a gift inapprorpiate
>and not something I personally would buy, but I do feel that you accept
>all gifts graciously because somebody thought you would like the gift. At
>a later time, if the gift is still inappropriate, exchange it or donate it
>to a shelter.
Okay, what are the stupidest presents that your child has received?
I mean, which are the ones that had you saying "what were they
_thinking_?!?!?!?!
I think our winner is the silver-plated 2" square coin bank shaped
like a wee cunning baby block. Like, I even have time to keep our
useful silver polished....
I'm generally pretty tolerant on presents, though: a snowsuit could
be useful for a cold snap here in LA (e.g. temperature falls below
60 ;-) or when we go on a trip. A toddler-sized satin strapless
dress makes a great dressup costume. Etc.
Jo Pitesky
pit...@bonnie.astro.ucla.edu
Andy Katz
>
>In the case of the party invitations, I've already mentioned
>my alternative: simply request "no toy weapons" in specifying
>dress for the party. That will implicitly cover gifts.
>
Hmmm, no *toy* weapons. . . ?
Won't that tempt them to bring their real ones instead?
Okay, sorry, sorry.
I do have a serious question since two threads converged on
a timely topic. I mentioned earlier that we had bought Aaron a
Supersoaker XP55, and having had some experience with
water weapons myself, I was, and am, genuinely impressed
with it. It shoots about the same quantity of water about the
actual distance it's supposed to; doesn't leak, and after 5
weeks of combat remains unbroken. That's a pretty impressive
action toy for ten bucks.
So, okay, one of Aaron's friends at school is having his fifth
birthday party. We're invited. I bought this kid a Supersoaker
just like Aaron's. Now, we're in South Texas, but the kid and
his family are Jewish, as are we. So I have no idea where they
stand on guns, real, play and imaginary. The gift itself seemed
to be well received by the recipient and his parents.
Now, the Supersoaker is not something that could ever be
mistaken for a real firearm, not with its garish plastic and huge
water cylinder straddling the top. I would not give a realistic
looking toy gun, or any gun that shoots any solid projectile
to a kid unless I knew him or her and the family well. If an
invitation included a request to not bring toy guns, I would err
on the side of safety and not buy even a Supersoaker. But
for those that don't specify. . . ?
What I'm wondering is how many people include water weapons
that look like water weapons in their rejection of toy guns.
(We prefer Aaron not play with toy guns, but occasionally he
borrows a playmate's cap six shooter and we prefer not to
make this forbidden fruit by fussing over it--for the most part,
he hasn't shown much interest in anything that doesn't shoot
water). And, if so, are they different from, say, squirting the hose
on a hot day, or getting into an old fashioned water fight?
Call me curious. . . .
. . . But dry for the moment.
Andy Katz
Sarah C F Eastman
>Okay, what are the stupidest presents that your child has received?
>I mean, which are the ones that had you saying "what were they
>_thinking_?!?!?!?!
>
>pit...@bonnie.astro.ucla.edu
For us it was the "Baby Watch". A friend of my mother gave Hannah a
real, working, tiny wristwatch when she was born. It actually fit her
tiny 12-week-old wrist perfectly. It also fit in her tiny 12-week-old
mouth, and was of limited value to someone who obviously didn't know
the difference between night and day anyway. We weren't really
surprised about it as this was the same woman who gave us an
industrial meat slicer as a wedding gift (given away as we had neither
the desire nor the courage to use it).
-SE, Mama to Hannah Banana (5/3/94) Topic of the Week: Toddler property law
Lynda Seehusen
: In article <mblindst-210...@fund.medsch.wisc.edu>,
: Martha Blum Lindstrom <mbli...@facstaff.wisc.edu> wrote:
: >In article <3s7jk5$r...@kaleka.seanet.com>, kco...@cintech.com(Kathleen
: >Cooke) wrote:
: Okay, what are the stupidest presents that your child has received?
: I mean, which are the ones that had you saying "what were they
: _thinking_?!?!?!?!
Well, it's not *stupid* per se but it was totally impractical. Emma
got a terribly adorable preemie-size dress as a baby gift. It's made
for babies 3-6 pounds. What's so bad about that you ask? Well, part
of the deal w/ being a preemie is that you have no body fat and you
have to be kept warm all the time. So while the dress was totally
cute, she couldn't really wear it b/c she had to have warm clothes
and blankets on. She did end up wearing it maybe 2 x when she was
about 7 pounds.
It'll be something I hang onto though in for the future, if only to
show her how tiny she was.
Lynda, mom to Emma Rose, 2.9 and "Junior" due Oct. 3.
_______________________________________________________________________________
"Cleaning the house while your kids are still growing is like shoveling the
sidewalk before it quits snowing." From "Taste of Home" magazine.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyen Hache
Jo Pitesky UCLA Astronomy (pitesky@mira) writes:
>>
>
> Okay, what are the stupidest presents that your child has received?
> I mean, which are the ones that had you saying "what were they
> _thinking_?!?!?!?!
>
> like a wee cunning baby block. Like, I even have time to keep our
> useful silver polished....
>
agree! A 'well-meaning' but irritating gift from a grandparent was a
TIME_OUT clock, you know, the ones you wind for 5 min, to punish the kid,
making him sit in the corner.Once this disappointingly ugly gift was
unwrapped,and the purpose explained, my son expressed his views on it by
promptly breaking it!...No kidding, the grandparent inclosed a note asking
my son NOT be told who it was from!!:)
Lyen
Lori Thompson
aren't bugging me to get off the computer. First some background: Both my
daughters were totally breastfed, Michelle (7) until she weaned at three and
Clara (2.11) is still going at it to get to sleep. So I'm "one of those
radicals" :) My kids went from breast to tippy cup, so we didn't have
bottles around much. At two years Clara decided she realy liked bottles as
she had seen her cousins with them and seen play bottles at friends homes. We
had a great big BBQ birthday party for Clara's second at our home last year
with every family coming of the same parenting philosophy as us, except for my
brother and sisiter in law who think I'm nuts.
Well My "good" friend Melissa thought it would be hysterical to wrap up a
cartoon character bottle and a packet of kool-aid as a practical joke gift for
Clara. Well Clara opened the bottle and went nuts she wanted to go directly to
the hose and fill it up and started screaming and throwing one of those
classic two year old temper trantrums, it was quite embarrassing, my SIL said
very sacastically, "why don't you give her the bottle, it's obviously what she
wants, (jab, stab,)" All my breastfeeding friends just glared at my other
friend and thought it was not in great taste for a child's party. What was so
embarrassing was my reaction, I freaked out and got really angry, went in the
kitchen and threw the bottle and kool-aid in the trash while some other
friends tryed to distract Clara with other gifts.
I'm all for practical jokes, as long as I'm in on them.....this was probably
the stupidest gift anyone has ever given my one of my children, although the
Barbie with 20 matching outfits sure started a trend in our house after my
MIL gave it to Michelle for Christmas one year.
Lori
Claudia Breves
: anyway). But, what worries me about following it where children are involved
: is that the alternatives to a "no guns please" statement look possibly worse -
: it would be terribly rude to give the gun back to the child bringing it, and
: having my child receive the gun, be thankful in public, and then dispose of it
: in private seems a lot harder than not having the toy gun cross my doorstep to
I've been there, and it actually isn't that hard. I would never give a
gift back. Aside from being rude, I think the giver would have big time
hurt feelings. We accept all gifts, have a big thank you and then I go
ahead and trash what I don't want for my children (which, so far, has only
been gun stuff, and only a few times, though one gun was an ouzi (sp?)).
If possible, I can take it back to the toy store and exchange for
something else, actually, I will let the kids pick out a substitute. And
I'm quite up front about it. I'll explain, "Some moms don't mind if their
kids play with guns and such, but this mom doesn't like guns and so we'll
find something creative, rather than destructive, to play". I'll also add
that "I'm sure <whoever> thought this would be an okay gift, and he/she
did spend time going to choose it for you, and look how nice it was
wrapped, and isn't the card nice, so we will thank them and appreciate
them for the effort and thought. But the gun's outta here."
Claudia
cbr...@amanda.dorsai.org
Mother of Casey 8 and Dylan 4 3/4
ahel...@umiami.ir.miami.edu
> I'm sure people who know me wouldn't give any child of mine toy
> weapons to begin with, since I am Quaker, but parents of kids my child might
> beliefs?
Well toy guns are one of my very few knee-jerk, absolute, no exceptions, no
discussion forbidden items. This is so ironclad that to be honest I don't
think anyone has ever given my son or daughter a toy gun! Although come to
think of it once for a birthday he did get some kind of dart gun toy. It just
wasn't a problem; he knew he couldn't have it so there wasn't an issue with
him getting upset at having it given away (which it immediately was).
So from my perspective I do follow Miss Manners' rule, and I wouldn't dream of
specifying on an invitation what is or is not acceptable. This to me violates
the very essence of a *gift*: that it is an offering given because one wishes
to do so, not because it is required. Given that premise how in the world can
one ever justify dictating what type, style or manner of expression the
kindness takes? Now, if the giver ASKS, that is a different matter. The
etiquette among our group of moms is that one asks the parent of the birth-
day child (for example) a general "What is X interested in?" and then gets a
general idea of what would be appreciated.
(NB: My toy gun ban extends to giving as well, I would never buy one for
another child either).
Ann Helmers
Kate Gregory
Jo Pitesky UCLA Astronomy <pit...@mira.astro.ucla.edu> wrote:
>I think our winner is the silver-plated 2" square coin bank shaped
>like a wee cunning baby block. Like, I even have time to keep our
>useful silver polished....
I must be weird. I have one of these for each kid, and love
them. Mind, I don't polish them. I will later, and they'll
have a patina (black in the crevices) like they should.
My idea of stupid presents is books that the giver KNOWS
the parents will not read to the child, given to a prereader.
My kids have 4 or 5 explicitly religious books, given by my MIL,
because she knows we won't be covering these topics (teaching
prayers, telling bible stories, etc.) Does she expect that
we will read them anyway? Or that a newborn will read them
to himself? Beth is just starting to read but she needs
major participation from an adult. My MIL never offers
to reads these books to my kids so why did she give them?
Kate
Jo Pitesky UCLA Astronomy
Paula Burch <pbu...@roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu> wrote:
>
>Jo Pitesky UCLA Astronomy <pit...@mira.astro.ucla.edu> wrote:
>>I think our winner is the silver-plated 2" square coin bank shaped
>>like a wee cunning baby block. Like, I even have time to keep our
>>useful silver polished....
>
>dumb-looking for anyone not a baby, and too breakable and dangerous
>for a baby. What were they *thinking* of?! Why does this even exist?
>At least the silver baby block bank isn't dangerous to the baby!
>Uh, well, unless you put coins into it, or something weird like
>that. :-)
This reminds me of those nursery snow-globe things that get sold
as nursery decorator items: there's Mickey or some other kid-friendly
character in one of those fragile snow-globes, and the box legend
says "not a plaything."
Sigh.
Jo Pitesky
pit...@bonnie.astro.ucla.edu
Ed Hughes
In article <3sernr$p...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>, pbu...@roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu (Paula Burch) writes:
>
>Jo Pitesky UCLA Astronomy <pit...@mira.astro.ucla.edu> wrote:
>>I think our winner is the silver-plated 2" square coin bank shaped
>>like a wee cunning baby block. Like, I even have time to keep our
>>useful silver polished....
>
>I can beat this! We were given a crystal glass rocking horse. Too
>dumb-looking for anyone not a baby, and too breakable and dangerous
>for a baby. What were they *thinking* of?! Why does this even exist?
>At least the silver baby block bank isn't dangerous to the baby!
>Uh, well, unless you put coins into it, or something weird like
>that. :-)
>
who on occasion enjoys banging things on his head! I've seen that
bank, and it's got some serious corners (six of 'em :->). It's also
got a decent amount of weight, even empty. I remember looking for a
bank as a baby gift for someone, seeing that silver block bank, and
thinking, "Yeah. Right." Miraculously, Murphy's Law of Gift Revenge
did not kick in, and Paul did not receive one of these!
--Ed
--
Ed Hughes, SAS Institute | "See no evil...well, maybe just a little...yeah!"
Cary, NC | --Joel, "Women of the Prehistoric Planet,"
| MST3000
Lynn & Joel Gazis-Sax
>Path:
>Well toy guns are one of my very few knee-jerk, absolute, no exceptions, no
>discussion forbidden items. This is so ironclad that to be honest I don't
>think anyone has ever given my son or daughter a toy gun! Although come to
>think of it once for a birthday he did get some kind of dart gun toy. It just
>wasn't a problem; he knew he couldn't have it so there wasn't an issue with
>him getting upset at having it given away (which it immediately was).
That's reassuring. I'm not really troubled at the prospect of having accept a
toy gun as a present and then tell the child it will be given up *once*; I
just had this worrying image of having a party where half the guests decided
to bring my child a toy gun.
>So from my perspective I do follow Miss Manners' rule, and I wouldn't dream of
>specifying on an invitation what is or is not acceptable. This to me violates
>the very essence of a *gift*: that it is an offering given because one wishes
>to do so, not because it is required. Given that premise how in the world can
>one ever justify dictating what type, style or manner of expression the
>kindness takes? Now, if the giver ASKS, that is a different matter. The
>etiquette among our group of moms is that one asks the parent of the birth-
>day child (for example) a general "What is X interested in?" and then gets a
>general idea of what would be appreciated.
After hearing the responses, I am feeling better about Miss Manners' rule. I
liked the suggestion of theme parties, and I figure, if worst comes to worst
and I find I can't be sure people will ask or realize that I wouldn't want
toy guns given as presents, there are a lot of different kinds of theme
parties I could do which would suggest other presents (books theme party,
trains theme party, ball games theme party, or whatever, just so long as it
has a theme which has nothing to do with toy guns). (Really, a children's
birthday party is the only place I'd even be tempted to ignore Miss Manners'
rule, because specifying presents seems wrong to me too. And since there seem
to be other ways to make it unlikely that people will show up at my kid's
birthday party with toy guns, that satisfies me.)
Lynn Gazis-Sax
Heather Madrone
In article <3s9sqk$8...@insosf1.netins.net>, <lyn...@dordt.edu> writes:
> Well, it's not *stupid* per se but it was totally impractical. Emma
> got a terribly adorable preemie-size dress as a baby gift. It's made
> for babies 3-6 pounds. What's so bad about that you ask? Well, part
> of the deal w/ being a preemie is that you have no body fat and you
> have to be kept warm all the time. So while the dress was totally
> cute, she couldn't really wear it b/c she had to have warm clothes
> and blankets on. She did end up wearing it maybe 2 x when she was
> about 7 pounds.
Dresses for any baby who can't yet walk are stupid, IMO. Tiny babies
tend to scrunch up their legs and the dress gets wadded up around their
ears. Crawlers trip on them.
--
Heather Madrone
(hea...@madrone.com)
Dwayne May
>tend to scrunch up their legs and the dress gets wadded up around their
>ears. Crawlers trip on them.
Just in case anyone is attempting to buy a baby a present for the summer
heat...I disagree. My 2nd daughter was born in a very hot summer. The only
clothes we put her in were little sun dresses. She had clothing on to protect
her from the sun, but nothing was tight against her body. On our first baby, we
never put on dresses because she was born in the winter, but they were wonderful
for our 9lb summer baby.
Marie
MLS, Online,13 gigs, (14) 28.8 lines 716-454-5555
Lori L. Grzybowski
you could color with the (included) sparkly gel, and add
to the original toy.
Unfortunately, we did not have the original toy, had
never *heard* of the original toy and had no idea where
to obtain it! I'm pretty sure it was from a closeout
of unpopular toys....
It sat in our junk drawer for about 3 years, until I
got the courage to toss it out. But don't tell
Rachel! :)
Lori G.
naomi pardue
We found dresses impractical only during the crawling stage. Earlier she
did fine in them (though she only wore them for "dress-up" occassions ..
another argument against buying lots of frilly dresses for infants. She
wore each dress, on average, 2ce before outgrowing it. Now, at 3 1/2,
Shaina likes to wear them to school, so she has lots of casual drsses.)
Naomi
Maurine Neiberg
> In article <00190...@mlstand.com> Dwayn...@mlstand.com (Dwayne May) writes:
>
> >Dresses for any baby who can't yet walk are stupid, IMO. Tiny babies
> >tend to scrunch up their legs and the dress gets wadded up around their
> >ears. Crawlers trip on them.
>
> Just in case anyone is attempting to buy a baby a present for the summer
> heat...I disagree. My 2nd daughter was born in a very hot summer. The only
> clothes we put her in were little sun dresses. She had clothing on to protect
> her from the sun, but nothing was tight against her body. On our first baby, we
> never put on dresses because she was born in the winter, but they were wonderful
> for our 9lb summer baby.
But in that case, buy the proper size for the baby. Rose received
several very cute summer dresses in one year sizes. She was 6 lbs, 6
oz. at birth. I figure she'll fit into these dresses in about
November, and several of them are not returnable. Usually it's nice
to buy larger items as baby gifts, but Rose has many light summer
outfits in a variety of sizes, ranging from newborn (which she should
outgrow next week or so) to 24 months, and nothing for winter.
Sigh.
Maury
--
Maurine Neiberg ma...@turing.eecs.uic.edu
3L, University of Chicago Law School mjne...@midway.uchicago.edu
On maternity leave until Fall Quarter, 1995
Mommy to Rose 4/24/95
--
Maurine Neiberg ma...@turing.eecs.uic.edu
3L, University of Chicago Law School mjne...@midway.uchicago.edu
On maternity leave until Fall Quarter, 1995
Mommy to Rose 4/24/95
Sally Fay
> >Dresses for any baby who can't yet walk are stupid, IMO. Tiny babies
> >tend to scrunch up their legs and the dress gets wadded up around their
> >ears. Crawlers trip on them.
> Just in case anyone is attempting to buy a baby a present for the summer
> heat...I disagree. My 2nd daughter was born in a very hot summer. The only
> clothes we put her in were little sun dresses. She had clothing on to protect
> her from the sun, but nothing was tight against her body. On our first baby,
we
> never put on dresses because she was born in the winter, but they were
wonderful
> for our 9lb summer baby.
> Marie
Our little girl was born in June and she did wear some dresses, but a lot of
them
were just for dress up. The one thing I didn't like about some of the little
dresses
is that they had collars that seemed to always be sticking up, and if they had
lace, they tended to irritate and chap her cheeks and chin.
Personally, I preferred onsie type outfits -- made out of cotton for the hot
weather.
Just my 0.02 worth.
Sally - mom to Sarah, who was born in the hottest summer I remember.
I believe we had a record number of days over 100 degrees and Sarah
had heat rash. She survived--she's 7 YO now!
Kate Gregory
>dumb-looking for anyone not a baby, and too breakable and dangerous
>for a baby. What were they *thinking* of?! Why does this even exist?
>At least the silver baby block bank isn't dangerous to the baby!
>Uh, well, unless you put coins into it, or something weird like
>that. :-)
Oh, I suddenly remembered something! (I think our minds block the
really stupid stuff.) A CRYSTAL SOOTHER! Given to me while I was
pregnant with my first, who ended up being Beth. Complete with little
blue accent crystal, and on a blue ribbon. Too small to hang
as a decoration, too fragile to allow near the baby (actually
the damn thing was a choking hazard), and not particularly attractive.
On top of that, soothers and bottles as baby symbols push my
buttons big time.
The same uncle gave Kevin, as a newborn, a baseball bat, ball,
and glove (Beth appropriated them, of course) and a baby bottle
with Pepsi symbols all over it, which has never been used.
I really like this uncle but as you can tell our childraising
approaches are a little different (his kids are 27 and 25.)
Kate
Chirlian Lisa E
>In article <3sernr$p...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>,
>Paula Burch <pbu...@roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu> wrote:
>>I can beat this! We were given a crystal glass rocking horse. Too
>>dumb-looking for anyone not a baby, and too breakable and dangerous
>>for a baby. What were they *thinking* of?! Why does this even exist?
>>At least the silver baby block bank isn't dangerous to the baby!
>>Uh, well, unless you put coins into it, or something weird like
>>that. :-)
>
>Oh, I suddenly remembered something! (I think our minds block the
>really stupid stuff.) A CRYSTAL SOOTHER! Given to me while I was
>pregnant with my first, who ended up being Beth. Complete with little
>blue accent crystal, and on a blue ribbon. Too small to hang
>as a decoration, too fragile to allow near the baby (actually
>the damn thing was a choking hazard), and not particularly attractive.
I think that a tasteful piece of crystal is an ok gift for a
baby. Of course, tasteful is as tasteful does so someone else might
have a hard time picking out a gift of crystal for my baby. It might
not be useful to the baby, but would make a nice keepsake for later
on. I would love to have a crystal do-dad that someone gave me when I
was a baby (but I like to collect crystal and china knick-knacks).
I tend to buy clothing as gifts because I love buying baby
clothes, but also because, if the recepient does not find them to be
as appealing as I do they will be outgrown shortly and/or make a good
outfit for the diaper bag. And if the recepient loves them, that's
another outfit (and babies always need another outfit :-)). I would
not buy a piece of china/crystal unless it was someone who I was sure
would appreciate the item.
Lisa
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lisa Chirlian lchi...@cc.brynmawr.edu
Department of Chemistry, Bryn Mawr College, Bryn Mawr, PA 19010
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
or...@skydivskylit.dseg.ti.com
--
In article <3st4tn$s...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (naomi pardue) writes:
|>Jo Pitesky UCLA Astronomy (pitesky@mira) wrote:
|>
|>> Okay, what are the stupidest presents that your child has received?
|>> I mean, which are the ones that had you saying "what were they
|>> _thinking_?!?!?!?!
|>
|>I was just flipping through a Tiffany Gift Catalog while sitting in the
|>lobby of the Y today. They offered, along with several sterling silver
|>rattles (including one lovely Man in the Moon one ... it would make a
|>beautiful decorative piece) two *porcelain* baby dish sets. The
|>two piece set (divided dish and mug) was $50. The 3 piece (plate, bowl
|>and mug) was $60. Lovely to be sure. But china? For infants?
|>
|>Naomi
|>
Bobby got a sterling rattle and bonked himself in the head with it once or
twice before I put it away for good.
Regards, Bonnie
Mama to Bobby 9/5/91 and Aunt Bonnie to Hayden 3/7/95
*******************************************************************
Email: or...@lobby.ti.com
Michal Peri
: Jo Pitesky UCLA Astronomy (pitesky@mira) wrote:
: > Okay, what are the stupidest presents that your child has received?
: > I mean, which are the ones that had you saying "what were they
: > _thinking_?!?!?!?!
: I was just flipping through a Tiffany Gift Catalog while sitting in the
: lobby of the Y today. They offered, along with several sterling silver
: rattles (including one lovely Man in the Moon one ... it would make a
: beautiful decorative piece) two *porcelain* baby dish sets. The
: two piece set (divided dish and mug) was $50. The 3 piece (plate, bowl
: and mug) was $60. Lovely to be sure. But china? For infants?
I remember finding in a catalog an ad for a 24% leaded crystal
baby bottle, advertised as fitting conventional nipples. Not
just stupid, but dangerous too (since crystal can leach lead
into beverages served therein).
-- Michal
naomi pardue
> Okay, what are the stupidest presents that your child has received?
> I mean, which are the ones that had you saying "what were they
> _thinking_?!?!?!?!
I was just flipping through a Tiffany Gift Catalog while sitting in the
lobby of the Y today. They offered, along with several sterling silver
rattles (including one lovely Man in the Moon one ... it would make a
beautiful decorative piece) two *porcelain* baby dish sets. The
two piece set (divided dish and mug) was $50. The 3 piece (plate, bowl
and mug) was $60. Lovely to be sure. But china? For infants?
Naomi
Noel-Marie
> Okay, what are the stupidest presents that your child has received?
> I mean, which are the ones that had you saying "what were they
> _thinking_?!?!?!?!
Not one that Maura received, but still one that makes me laugh...
A sterling silver teething ring????
It's very pretty... nice engravings all around a ring. Looks a bit
like the water-filled rings, but... in silver?
*sigh*
Noel-Marie
mama to Maura Rhiannon, 1/18/95
deb alrutz
not being a collector myself, i thought the
plate (one of those bradford collection sort of things)
from the mil was strange -- i mean what am i suppose
to do with it -- display it in her room i guess....
it doesn't exactly match my peter rabbit theme!!
naomi pardue
> Jo Pitesky UCLA Astronomy (pitesky@mira) wrote:
> I was just flipping through a Tiffany Gift Catalog while sitting in the
> lobby of the Y today. They offered, along with several sterling silver
> rattles (including one lovely Man in the Moon one ... it would make a
> beautiful decorative piece) two *porcelain* baby dish sets. The
> two piece set (divided dish and mug) was $50. The 3 piece (plate, bowl
> and mug) was $60. Lovely to be sure. But china? For infants?
Oh, and I forgot to mention the sterling silver infant feeding spoon.
(The long handled kind that is only useful until baby starts self
feeding.) I don't recall the price, but it was definitely outlandish.
Naomi
K. A. Weiss
naomi pardue <npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote:
>naomi pardue (npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu) wrote:
>Oh, and I forgot to mention the sterling silver infant feeding spoon.
>(The long handled kind that is only useful until baby starts self
>feeding.) I don't recall the price, but it was definitely outlandish.
My daughter received one of these, and I thought it was a very nice baby
gift. After all, baby gifts should be for babies, and a silver spoon
isn't likely to get broken over the years. When Alexandra started eating
solids, my mother dug out the silver spoon that I had received as a baby,
so that one at least is starting to become an heirloom. I use both of
them with my baby son now, too. (I should also add that when Alexandra
first started solids, the local dollar store got a stock of Reed & Barton
silver baby spoons, and they were selling them for a dollar a piece. I
bought five or six, and I'm still using them.)
My vote for an impractical baby gift is the ceramic two-handled mug with
a little statue of Pooh Bear inside it. It's definitely designed for a
toddler, not a baby, and even a toddler could smash it into smithereens
at the drop of a cup. I realized that Alexandra (who just turned four)
is finally mature enough to drink from it without me having to worry
about her breaking it, but she really doesn't need the double handles
anymore.
Kimberly Weiss
Mommy to Alexandra (6/16/91) and Michael (10/7/94)
Susan Hough
I wanted to chime into this thread from the perspective of someone
with relatively old youngsters (11, 8, 4.5...last time I checked, anyway :o).
While I certainly wouldn't want a house full of crystal doo-dads or
collectable plates, two of my all-time favorite baby gifts would
fall squarely on the 'useless' list--a porcelain teddy bear that plays
Teddy Bear's Picnic (but is too fragile to ever be played with by a young
child), and a personalized porcelain plate with my daughter's name and
birthday incorporated on the front design. The latter is from my
grandmother, who was 77 at the time and wanted her first great-grandbaby
to have something from her that she could keep as she grew older.
Happily, my grandmother is still around at age 88 and still a wonderful
influence in my kids' lives :o) , but her mobility has delined markedly
over the last 10 years and she has long-since given up trying to actually
shop for gifts (she sends the kids money & cards on their birthdays and
Christmas). So I think the plate will be special for Sarah as she goes
through life, a small tangible token of how special *she* was to a very
wonderful lady.
Sue
Shawn McNulty
Now, they were from a relative, and I know she put a great deal of
thought and effort into them, but *bibs*? I wrote a lovely thank-you,
and put them away!
Also, from the same relative, Christopher received, as a newborn, a
framed embroidered piece, personalized with his name, etc. It was a
teddy bear motif, which didn't go with the nursery, but I didn't really
mind that. Except now that he's a big boy, we're ready to redecorate,
and it will really look out of place. Do ya'll (sorry, my Texan is
showing) think it would be O.K. for me to move it to my sewing room, or
Patrick's nursery (until he's a big boy)?
Domestically yours,
Julie
SAHM to Christopher (4) and Patrick (3.5 mos)
Enid Karr
by giving you a present. If you don't like it, return it, or put it away
or give it to the Salvation Army. People are NOT mind readers, and I think it
IS the thought that counts.
Enid
Dale Gerdemann
Get the kid one of those aluminum tv dinner trays. They're shiny, they
make noise when you push on them and they're light, easy to pick up
and throw around. Babys love them. And you can get them for just the
price of your tv dinner.
-- Dale Gerdemann
jen hassler
: Also, from the same relative, Christopher received, as a newborn, a
: teddy bear motif, which didn't go with the nursery, but I didn't really
: mind that. Except now that he's a big boy, we're ready to redecorate,
: and it will really look out of place. Do ya'll (sorry, my Texan is
: showing) think it would be O.K. for me to move it to my sewing room, or
: Patrick's nursery (until he's a big boy)?
My grandmother and grandfather each painted and embroidered a bunch of
things for my and my brothers and sister when we were born. Most of them
did not go with our "decor" or "tastes" when we were groing up. And so
my mother put them in a closet in the den. I discovered them when I was
moving away to go to college. And I took all that were mine and began to
display them proudly on my walls. They hang today in my bedroom and
hallway and livingroom.
What ever you do with them, do try to keep them (not that you implied
that you wouldn't) for him when he is an adult; who knows, perhaps he
will choose to decorate his children's rooms with them (as I did once
with mine).
Now I try to embroider something for each child born to a friend or
relative of mine - though I tend ask in advance what the nursery will
look like. If I don't know, though, I just make something vaguely
neutral. :-)
--
Jen Hassler...@freenet.ufl.edu "If they give you
Libertarian Party of Alachua County ruled paper, write
SAH for Elspeth Jon (Beth) 11-16-87 the other way."
and Moira Lenore 10-13-90 -- de los Pasos
Claudia Breves
: > I was just flipping through a Tiffany Gift Catalog while sitting in the
: > lobby of the Y today. They offered, along with several sterling silver
: > rattles (including one lovely Man in the Moon one ... it would make a
: > beautiful decorative piece) two *porcelain* baby dish sets. The
: > two piece set (divided dish and mug) was $50. The 3 piece (plate, bowl
: > and mug) was $60. Lovely to be sure. But china? For infants?
We received one Tiffany porcelain baby dish set for each of our two kids.
From business associates in both cases. It was a nice gift, I thought. I
was able to use the dishes until the point that the children fed
themselves, but then I used the bowl for other things (like water for the
cat). We have no pieces surviving (8 years after the first set), but I
think up until last year I had a squirrel bowl. In fact, I was the one
who broke it, ultimately. :-D
Claudia
cbr...@amanda.dorsai.org
mother of two boys, Casey 8, and Dylan (almost 5)
Karen Wysopal
what you really want to do! I think the "lovely thank-you note"
is probably the most important thing.
-Karen
Wendy Marsden
We have dust allergies, for one thing, and for another they usually
had glass eyes or ribbons insecurely tied or were otherwise inappropriate
for babies. But the all time winner (loser) is a huge shaggy dog
(about 3 feet long by 18 inches wide) that someone must have won at
a fair or something. The kids always loved it, but I would love to
toss its dusty little hide out the door!
Wendy Marsden, who thinks Puffalumps are great
naomi pardue
> Enid
"Women's Day" magazine had an excellent opinion peice on this topic a
few months ago. The author's point (that I agree with) is that a
drastically inappopriate gift (not just one that doesn't match the decor
in the nursery..) shows that their WAS no thought on the part of the
gift giver. One example in the article was of a married couple where the
husband was in school full time, studying for the ministry, and the wife
was barely holding the family together. The couple got endless streams
of guest towels embroidered with praying hands, Bibles (like a minister
wouldn't already have one...), and knick-knacks. The couple was never so
thrilled as when they got a ham as a gift, or a package of fancy jams.
These useless gifts were all from people who knew them fairly well,
KNEW that
money was very tight, but never THOUGHT that the couple might like
something with a bit of practicality to it.
At my previous job, the director one year gave everyone holiday gifts.
My gift was one of those gift packs of food, with cheese, sausage, jam,
etc. Now, she knew I was Jewish. As it happens, I DON"T keep kosher,
but she didn't know that. Isn't a gift of pork sausage a rather
THOUGHTLESS gift for a Jewish person, if you are not POSITIVE that they
eat pork in their home? Even if everyone else in the
office got that same pack, if she had given the matter some thought, she
surely could have ordered me some candy, or a cheese-only sampler.
Yes, I thanked her nicely, as I'm sure the couple mentioned above
thanked their benefactors nicely. But, as both giver and recipient, I
MUCH prefer to give/get a gift that will not end up in the salvation
army box. (I should add here that everything need not be useful. I
cherish the x-stich baby samplers I got, because they showed love and
care on the part of the givers. Same for the stack of baby quilts I got
from ALL my friends and relatives. I got enough quilts to keep a baby
warm at the north pole, but we keep them all, because I value the time
that went into them.)
Naomi
K. A. Weiss
>I received (or rather Patrick did) some lovely hand embroidered *bibs*!
>Now, they were from a relative, and I know she put a great deal of
>thought and effort into them, but *bibs*? I wrote a lovely thank-you,
>and put them away!
We got a couple of embroidered bibs for our daughter too, and we
actually did use them. Yes, they have a few stains on them, but the
person who gave them to us had three children of her own (I haven't
figured out yet when she had time to stich them -- I've pretty much given
up my needlework until my kids are in elementary school), so I figured
she knew what they were for and what would happen to them. We're even
using them with our 8mo son now, even the one that says 'Kathryn' (which
is Alexandra's first name).
>Also, from the same relative, Christopher received, as a newborn, a
>framed embroidered piece, personalized with his name, etc. It was a
>teddy bear motif, which didn't go with the nursery, but I didn't really
>mind that. Except now that he's a big boy, we're ready to redecorate,
>and it will really look out of place. Do ya'll (sorry, my Texan is
>showing) think it would be O.K. for me to move it to my sewing room, or
>Patrick's nursery (until he's a big boy)?
I think it would be perfectly appropriate to put it in your sewing room.
That way everyone would still see it on occasion.
Martha Blum Lindstrom
npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu (naomi pardue) wrote:
> "Women's Day" magazine had an excellent opinion peice on this topic a
> few months ago. The author's point (that I agree with) is that a
> drastically inappopriate gift (not just one that doesn't match the decor
> in the nursery..) shows that their WAS no thought on the part of the
> gift giver. One example in the article was of a married couple where the
> husband was in school full time, studying for the ministry, and the wife
> was barely holding the family together. The couple got endless streams
> of guest towels embroidered with praying hands, Bibles (like a minister
> wouldn't already have one...), and knick-knacks. The couple was never so
> thrilled as when they got a ham as a gift, or a package of fancy jams.
> These useless gifts were all from people who knew them fairly well,
> KNEW that
> money was very tight, but never THOUGHT that the couple might like
> something with a bit of practicality to it.
Well, some folks are much better gift givers than others! My MIL usually
sides on the edge of the not so good. I think she buys stuff that she
would like. For example, for Sarah's first Christmas (she was 6 months),
my MIL gave her this beige romper thing with pastel flowers and smocking.
Well, I prefer to dress Sarah in bright clothes, usually in the non-frilly
sort. What did I do? I had Sarah's picture taken in the outfit, sent it
to MIL for her birthday and put the outfit in the drawer. The times that
Sarah is around my MIL, I do try to dress her in bright outfits so my MIL
see what kind of clothes we like, but that's all I can do. She'll still
buy stuff that I wouldn't buy.
> (I should add here that everything need not be useful. I
> cherish the x-stich baby samplers I got, because they showed love and
> care on the part of the givers. Same for the stack of baby quilts I got
> from ALL my friends and relatives. I got enough quilts to keep a baby
> warm at the north pole, but we keep them all, because I value the time
> that went into them.)
I got a ton of knitted and crocheted things, too. Now I like to knit
(when I find the time) and I know how much time and energy went into
making them. But do I need 10? No. But like you, I still have them.
:-)
--
.sig under construction but you can reach me at mbli...@facstaff.wisc.edu
Robin Netherton
> ...The author's point (that I agree with) is that a
> drastically inappopriate gift (not just one that doesn't match the decor
> in the nursery..) shows that their WAS no thought on the part of the
> At my previous job, the director one year gave everyone holiday gifts.
> My gift was one of those gift packs of food, with cheese, sausage, jam,
> etc. Now, she knew I was Jewish. As it happens, I DON"T keep kosher,
> but she didn't know that. Isn't a gift of pork sausage a rather
> THOUGHTLESS gift for a Jewish person, if you are not POSITIVE that they
Amen to all this. We run into it every holiday and birthday from certain
of my husband's sweet but completely clueless relatives. They know
we're raising our baby as a Jew (I'm Jewish, my husband's Episcopalian,
his family members are various flavors of Protestants), and for the most
part, they wouldn't dream of working against our wishes. But several of
those who belong to more evangelical sects can't seem to avoid giving
primarily religious gifts. I don't think it's a conscious effort to
undermine our choices; rather, I speculate that one reason is that they do
their gift shopping in mostly Christian-oriented shops and catalogs, and
almost everything they own themselves has a religious connotation--so
maybe they just don't recognize that many things they give us are
particularly inappropriate for use or display in our home.
We've gotten baby rattles and bibs that say "Jesus loves me," albums of
Christmas music, huge ornaments meant for a large Christmas tree,
Christmas-themed tableclothes, guest towels, and napkins, etc. We accept
these in good spirit because we know they're all things the relatives
would have liked to receive themselves, and I write carefully worded but
cordial thank-yous. But of course the gifts go into a box, and will
eventually be donated. I think it simply shows that they understand
little about us, and don't even realize that there are any differences
they might want to take into account (despite our repeated gentle hints).
For our part, we make a point of asking each year what the recipients'
children are interested in, and choosing things that are secular enough
for me to feel comfortable giving but that are appropriate (we hope) for
the other families. Our gifts get raves from the nieces and nephews. But
this one-way effort sure gets tiring after a while.
Robin N.
Rick Davis
in my case, what we find people do is give us monogrammed gifts with a D on
it for my husband's not my last name. This is from people who know us really
well and know I haven't taken Rick's name (my MIL does it, but I don't
expect better from her).
I have piles of things from people given to me (including stationery with my
Myriam Davis on it. I've never been Myriam Davis, never will be but
convincing people of that has been fruitless. I occasionally get a chuckle,
though out of some list that has failed to understand the gender of Myriam
and sends mail to Mr. Richard Godfrey or Mr. Myriam Davis. You'd think that
the mailing list would get better.....
Myriam
--
Rick Davis and Myriam Godfrey
r...@well.com http://www.hooked.net:80/users/rld
Alison
npa...@ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
>At my previous job, the director one year gave everyone holiday gifts.
>My gift was one of those gift packs of food, with cheese, sausage, jam,
>etc. Now, she knew I was Jewish. As it happens, I DON"T keep kosher,
>but she didn't know that. Isn't a gift of pork sausage a rather
>THOUGHTLESS gift for a Jewish person, if you are not POSITIVE that they
>office got that same pack, if she had given the matter some thought, she
>surely could have ordered me some candy, or a cheese-only sampler.
Are you positive your boss knew you were Jewish? I have this problem
myself every year around December, because I want to give holiday cards
or treats to my co-workers, but I'm not sure who celebrates what. It is
tricky when you have 30 or more people in your department to know who is
Jewish or not, and some people that I know are Jewish (like my boss) do
celebrate Christmas. We also have many Asian & Middle Eastern people at
my company, which also makes it tricky. I usually just get some generic
candy and some "Happy Holidays" cards. Also, I'll bet there are a lot of
people who honestly have no idea a lot of Jewish people don't eat pork.
I do know it, but I might not think of it when buying gifts for everyone.
(I actually went to a Passover feast at a church, and they served ham
because they couldn't find any lamb!! I almost flipped.)
Anyway, on the subject of thoughtless gifts, my mother tends to give
people what she thinks they SHOULD have, even if she knows they won't
like it! She gives me all sorts of clothes I'll never wear, because she
thinks I should wear those styles. And she has already bought several
things for my future child (I'm not even pregnant), even though I told
her I didn't see any point in having those things (such as those sterling
silver things other people mentioned). I am sure when I actually do
have a child, she will buy whatever she likes, even if I tell her I'd
prefer something different. (For instance, she's already bought a couple
of Peter Rabbit things for my nursery, even though I told her I was
probably going to do a Winnie-the-Pooh theme.)
--Alison
Barb Luongo
KAW> Subject: Re: Stupid Presents (was Gift etiquette)
KAW>
KAW> In article <3t1l4m$m...@netaxs.com>, Shawn McNulty <mcn...@netaxs.com>
KAW> wrote: >I received (or rather Patrick did) some lovely hand embroidered *
>Now, they were from a relative, and I know she put a great deal of
>thought and effort into them, but *bibs*? I wrote a lovely thank-you,
>and put them away!
What is stupid about hand embroidered bibs? I have given them as gifts.
I find them beautiful yet useful. Being handmade, they showed I cared
to put so much work into them.
**************************************************************
* Barb (pg 100) *
* Mama to Willy (9-23-82), Mary (10-08-85) & Laury (2-23-93) *
* barbl...@aol.com or barb....@wolverine.com *
**************************************************************
... i r a gradieate uv outcum bassed edducayshun.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
John Federkins
>people what she thinks they SHOULD have, even if she knows they won't
>like it! She gives me all sorts of clothes I'll never wear, because she
>thinks I should wear those styles. And she has already bought several
>things for my future child (I'm not even pregnant), even though I told
>her I didn't see any point in having those things (such as those sterling
>silver things other people mentioned). I am sure when I actually do
>have a child, she will buy whatever she likes, even if I tell her I'd
>prefer something different. (For instance, she's already bought a couple
>of Peter Rabbit things for my nursery, even though I told her I was
>probably going to do a Winnie-the-Pooh theme.)
>--Alison
Also on the subject of thoughtless gifts, my mother-in-law tends to
try to give everyone duplicate gifts. There is a 3 1/2-year age
difference between my older son Nicholas & his only cousin (for now)
on my husband's side of the family, & before Nicholas was even born,
she was buying gifts for him that were the same as the things she was
giving to his cousin. She still does it, even though a lot of things
are age-inappropriate for Nicholas, & I don't want to have to keep
putting things away until he's old enough to play with them. I also
have another son, Kevin, who was born in May, & my husband's brother
is expecting a girl in the fall. I have no doubt she's going to buy
the same gifts for the 2 new babies.
Same things goes for us 4 adults. Last Christmas, I wasn't on very
good speaking terms with my mother-in-law (long story!), & she never
asked if there was anything I could use as a gift. But apparently she
had asked my sister-in-law, & so I got exactly the same things as she
did, even though I couldn't use any of it. (We always get one joint
present per couple at X-mas, & a bunch of smaller things. Luckily we
can pick out our own larger gift without *too* much hassle.) My
husband & his older brother have been getting basically the same
presents for their whole lives. We even received a lot of duplicate
shower gifts when we got married (his brother married 8 months before
we did). When we were expecting Nicholas, we had to put up a fight
for her not to buy us the same baby gift as she got for them. She
even asked us what we needed, & we told her a highchair, but I can't
count the number of times she kept saying that she bought a stroller
for them. At the time, we did not have a stroller, but I wasn't going
to let her get us the same gift. She thinks she can just do whatever
she wants, but I don't appreciate the fact that she thinks she can
walk all over us & we'll just lay there like doormats.
I know it's not necessarily polite to complain about the presents one
receives from someone, and I know I probably sound ungrateful, but I
object to always receiving duplicate gifts as people who have
different interests than I do, & whom I don't particularly like
anyway. But it's really irritating to be asked what I want & then to
have someone else's choices pushed at me. She can't seem to get it
through her head that John & I are not carbon copies of his brother &
wife, who aren't even that great of human beings, and that our kids
aren't the same & may not have the same interests. If it turns out
that they do, I don't object to duplicate gifts, but my children are
individuals, not clones of their cousins. What makes it even worse is
that for a long time, my in-laws were not on speaking terms with their
older son & his wife, & even during that whole estrangement period, we
still got the same gifts!
Is there a newsgroup for in-law bashing? It's not something I
necessarily enjoy, but my husband doesn't always want to hear it (he
does agree with me on a lot of points), & I need to vent somewhere!
I've always wanted to have a good relationship with my in-laws, & for
a while we were doing fine, but that was when we let them walk all
over us (yes, I know - our first mistake, & we've been paying for it
ever since). It's just worse now that we have kids of our own.
Jenny, mother to Nicholas (1/20/94) and Kevin (5/4/95)
Beth Weiss
>Also on the subject of thoughtless gifts, my mother-in-law tends to
>try to give everyone duplicate gifts.
Is this due to a mis-placed sense of trying to keep everything equal?
My mother sometimes tries to do that so noone feels slighted, even if
it would make more sense to buy different things for each person.
>Same things goes for us 4 adults. Last Christmas, I wasn't on very
>good speaking terms with my mother-in-law (long story!), & she never
>asked if there was anything I could use as a gift.
I wouldn't expect someone to ask me what I could use (or might want)
as a gift. They can, of course. But if they don't, and choose to buy
me something, there's no reason for me to think they should have asked
what I wanted.
>present per couple at X-mas, & a bunch of smaller things. Luckily we
>can pick out our own larger gift without *too* much hassle.)
This sounds as if you think your 'larger gift' is something that you
can pick out and get someone else to pay for. That's not how I think
of gifts, myself.
>we did). When we were expecting Nicholas, we had to put up a fight
>for her not to buy us the same baby gift as she got for them. She
>even asked us what we needed, & we told her a highchair, but I can't
>count the number of times she kept saying that she bought a stroller
>for them. At the time, we did not have a stroller, but I wasn't going
>to let her get us the same gift.
You weren't going to LET HER get you the same gift? Sheesh. The
woman wants to buy you a gift, and you don't want to LET HER decide
what it's going to be? I find this unbelievable--and rude.
>She thinks she can just do whatever
>she wants, but I don't appreciate the fact that she thinks she can
>walk all over us & we'll just lay there like doormats.
Well, from my point of view, if buying you a stroller is walking all
over you like a doormat, then she should spend her money on herself
and not on you.
>I know it's not necessarily polite to complain about the presents one
>receives from someone,
It is not polite--you can leave the word 'necessarily' out--it is not
polite.
>and I know I probably sound ungrateful, but I
Yes you do
>object to always receiving duplicate gifts as people who have
>different interests than I do, & whom I don't particularly like
>anyway.
I can see that you object, but it does strike me as rude and
ungrateful. Personally, I find it more productive to be tolerantly
amused that my mother thinks that we still will fight and be jealous
if she doesn't treat us identically--even if we are all grown up.
>She can't seem to get it
>through her head that John & I are not carbon copies of his brother &
>wife, who aren't even that great of human beings,
How charming of you.
>and that our kids
>aren't the same & may not have the same interests. If it turns out
>that they do, I don't object to duplicate gifts, but my children are
>individuals, not clones of their cousins. What makes it even worse is
>that for a long time, my in-laws were not on speaking terms with their
>older son & his wife, & even during that whole estrangement period, we
>still got the same gifts!
During that estrangement time, they still BOUGHT gifts--and for you
when you weren't on speaking terms with them, they bought gifts for
you too. Sounds as if they're being incredibly nice.
>Is there a newsgroup for in-law bashing? It's not something I
>necessarily enjoy, but my husband doesn't always want to hear it (he
>does agree with me on a lot of points), & I need to vent somewhere!
>I've always wanted to have a good relationship with my in-laws, & for
>a while we were doing fine, but that was when we let them walk all
>over us (yes, I know - our first mistake, & we've been paying for it
>ever since). It's just worse now that we have kids of our own.
Personally, I don't consider letting someone choose what gifts to buy
for you to be walking all over you. There may be other issues
involved, but as for this one, I think you've got a heck of a lot of
nerve being mad because they don't buy you what you want them to.
--
--Beth Weiss
bwe...@cs.arizona.edu
Catherine M. Taylor
i
zona.edu>
Organization: Illinois State University
Distribution:
Geez, alittle rough on her weren't ya Beth? You having a bad day or what?
Kitty - mom to Emmy (3.6YO) and Abby (1.6YO)
--
************************************************************************
Kitty Taylor ki...@mhsgate.mlb.ilstu.edu
Illinois State University cmt...@RS6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
Milner LIbrary ACM Dept phone: (309) 438-2863
Beth Weiss
>bwe...@CS.Arizona.EDU (Beth Weiss) wrote:
>I don't think of gifts that way either. But my in-laws are the ones
>who insist on doing it this way. THEY were the ones who said that
>they'd like to get us one large gift each year that we can use around
>the house or whatever we'd like, and because they'd like it to be
>something we can use, THEY insist that we pick it out.
You know, your MIL sounds a lot like my mother :-). What she really
wants, I suspect is for you to mindread and GUESS what they want to
give you, and then ask for that. That's all but impossible, of
course, but that would probably make them very happy.
>If they don't want our opinion, then fine- they shouldn't ask.
Gotta agree with that.
I'm not going to respond to the rest of this--it's clear that when I
responded to what Jenny wrote the first time, but not knowing the
whole story, I didn't give Jenny enough credit.
If she manages to stay polite to her in-laws and then vents to the
rest of us when her MIL drives her crazy, that's probably fair :-).
<teasing voice) But Jenny, next time, give us enough context so that
we can all agree with you that your MIL is out of line! :-)
--
--Beth Weiss
bwe...@cs.arizona.edu
John Federkins
>Is this due to a mis-placed sense of trying to keep everything equal?
>My mother sometimes tries to do that so noone feels slighted, even if
>it would make more sense to buy different things for each person.
I know that she does try to keep everything equal, & I do give her
credit for that. But with her method of trying to keep things equal,
she forgets that we are individuals. It wouldn't bother me in the
least if we received the same gifts once in a while, but it has been a
constant thing in the 8 1/2 years that I've known her.
>I wouldn't expect someone to ask me what I could use (or might want)
>as a gift. They can, of course. But if they don't, and choose to buy
>me something, there's no reason for me to think they should have asked
>what I wanted.
>This sounds as if you think your 'larger gift' is something that you
>can pick out and get someone else to pay for. That's not how I think
>of gifts, myself.
I don't think of gifts that way either. But my in-laws are the ones
who insist on doing it this way. THEY were the ones who said that
they'd like to get us one large gift each year that we can use around
the house or whatever we'd like, and because they'd like it to be
something we can use, THEY insist that we pick it out. We're just
trying to play by their rules. This is not what I have a problem
with. The thing that bothers me is that they say they want our
opinion, but when we mention something that we could use, our opinion
is never good enough. I wouldn't mind if they did mention that they
were getting something else for John's brother, because maybe it might
be something that we could use that we hadn't seriously considered.
But we hear about it over & over, & it really feels like our opinion
means very little to them. If they don't want our opinion, then fine
- they shouldn't ask. If they just wanted to give us a gift that they
picked out for us, that's fine - we'd thank them properly, since it is
the thought that counts. But because they make such a big fuss about
it, it really ruins the spirit of gift giving and often the situation
for which the gift was being given. (We've even tried leaving it in
their hands by sometimes saying there was nothing we really needed,
which was the truth at the time, but that wasn't good enough either.
We have to do it their way or forget it.) But it just creates a lot
of tension where there doesn't have to be any.
And I don't expect anyone to check with me first before they give me a
gift. The fact that I was never consulted about what I wanted for
Christmas wasn't the problem. I objected to the fact that I received
the same gifts as my sister-in-law because we are completely different
individuals who have very little in common, and I would have hoped
that my mother-in-law would have known this after knowing me for 8 1/2
years. It has been abundantly obvious for a long time that she really
cares very little for whom I am as an individual, but that doesn't
mean that it can't bother me. But she was properly thanked at the
time for the gifts that she did give.
>You weren't going to LET HER get you the same gift? Sheesh. The
>woman wants to buy you a gift, and you don't want to LET HER decide
>what it's going to be? I find this unbelievable--and rude.
She asked us what we could use & we told her a high chair, which we
really did need. This was before she ever said anything about a
stroller. But once again, she asked for our opinion, but how we
responded was not good enough for her. She did not know at the time
that we did not have a stroller, and we've never enlightened her. But
for me, it was the principle of the thing. If she wanted to buy us a
stroller, she should have just done so. The woman wants to buy us a
gift and insists that WE should decide what it's going to be, but
doesn't like our answer when we tell her what we do need.
>Well, from my point of view, if buying you a stroller is walking all
>over you like a doormat, then she should spend her money on herself
>and not on you.
I agree that she should spend her money on herself. It would save a
whole lot of aggravation for everybody if she did. But she asks our
opinion & then keeps bringing up the fact that she gave a different
gift to John's brother. Not just once or twice, but time after time,
giving us the impression that our opinion means nothing and that we
should just let her do whatever she wants (hence the doormat remark).
If that's how she wants to handle it, then she shouldn't ask to begin
with. This kind of thing has been going on for a long, long time, and
it does not only apply to gifts.
>I can see that you object, but it does strike me as rude and
>ungrateful. Personally, I find it more productive to be tolerantly
>amused that my mother thinks that we still will fight and be jealous
>if she doesn't treat us identically--even if we are all grown up.
It might be amusing if it wasn't treated so seriously by my in-laws.
They're the ones that make such a big deal of it. And we have tried
discussing this with them, trying to explain - very nicely - how we
feel about it. The whole thing boils down to the fact that they don't
want our opinion. If they want to treat us like we're still children
who are supposed to be seen & not heard, then they shouldn't ask. But
they don't want to discuss things with us, like one might expect close
family members to do. They want things done their way, since they are
"too old to try to change their ways" - their words, not mine. We
don't expect anyone to do any changing - but a little compromise would
go a long way. I, for one, would be very willing to compromise, but
there is no give on their side.
>>She can't seem to get it
>>through her head that John & I are not carbon copies of his brother &
>>wife, who aren't even that great of human beings,
>How charming of you.
Suffice to say, you don't know my brother-in-law & his wife.
>During that estrangement time, they still BOUGHT gifts--and for you
>when you weren't on speaking terms with them, they bought gifts for
>you too. Sounds as if they're being incredibly nice.
We were speaking to them at X-mas, but our relationship was (and is)
very strained. I'd rather try to work things out and have a decent
relationship with them - that would mean a LOT more to me than any
gifts they could buy for us. I don't consider someone who doesn't
care enough to want to treat me like an adult as being "incredibly
nice".
>Personally, I don't consider letting someone choose what gifts to buy
>for you to be walking all over you. There may be other issues
>involved, but as for this one, I think you've got a heck of a lot of
>nerve being mad because they don't buy you what you want them to.
There is much, MUCH more to this entire situation and our entire
relationship with my in-laws than is evident here. To give an example
of the emotional blackmail that we have had to put up with in this
family, during their estrangement period & especially at Christmas, my
brother-in-law & his wife gave pictures to my in-laws - a large
quantity, and some large in size - of their son, the grandchild that
my in-laws were not allowed to see. (At the time, he was the only
grandchild & everyone knew how much they wanted grandchildren.) At
other times of the year, it was hard for them too, but what could be
more of a slap in the face at Christmas, when more emphasis should be
placed on being with your family and on the spirit of the holiday than
on the gifts that are given, than having the whole sordid situation
thrown up in your face like that? As I said earlier, you objected to
me saying that John's brother & his wife aren't even that great of
human beings, but you have no idea the things that have gone on
between them & my in-laws, which John & I had nothing to do with but
were pulled right into the middle of.
Once again, it's not a matter of me not getting what I want out of
them. I don't care about material gifts. The only thing that I
really want from them is a little respect as a human being. I know
that both sides need to compromise, but for John and I, it's a case of
meeting an immovable force. We have heard the phrase used many times,
but we never thought we'd actually get stuck "between a rock and a
hard place".
Jenny, mother of Nicholas (1/20/94) and Kevin (5/4/95)
Alison C. Hendley
: g...@natinst.com> <8057813...@federkin.demon.co.uk> <3u96pe$4...@nofret.cs.a
: i
: zona.edu>
: Organization: Illinois State University
: Distribution:
: Geez, alittle rough on her weren't ya Beth? You having a bad day or what?
: Kitty - mom to Emmy (3.6YO) and Abby (1.6YO)
I actually agree fully with Beth Weiss. I realize the original poster
wants to be treated like an individual, but when it comes to the
reception of gifts, any other response but "thank you" is inappropriate.
If the present bothered her that much, the next response, albeit a tacky
one, is "this doesn't fit our decor/child/whatever, would you be offended
if I exchange it for something else."
Ali Hendley
ahen...@nmsu.edu
John Federkins
>I actually agree fully with Beth Weiss. I realize the original poster
>wants to be treated like an individual, but when it comes to the
>reception of gifts, any other response but "thank you" is inappropriate.
>If the present bothered her that much, the next response, albeit a tacky
>one, is "this doesn't fit our decor/child/whatever, would you be offended
>if I exchange it for something else."
Upon receiving any gift from my mother-in-law or anybody else for that
matter, they do not receive any other response except the appropriate
"thank you" from me. Contrary to what may be believed by my original
post, I am not a rude person. I believe, in her own way, that my
mother-in-law really wants to get us things that do fit our
"decor/child/whatever". (I also know she would probably be mortally
offended if she ever found out that we did exchange or return one of
her gifts, so the second response could never be utilized.) To
summarize my answer to Beth (the full explanation can be found posted
by her response), what I object to is being asked by my mother-in-law
what we would like to receive and then having my response completely
disregarded. As stated in the full explanation, this is how my
in-laws choose to handle the gift-giving situation. We're just trying
to do it their way, but how can we when they keep changing the rules?
Jenny, mother to Nicholas (1/20/94) and Kevin (5/4/95)
John Federkins
I guess I didn't give enough info the first time, but sometimes I get
so ticked off when I think about the whole mess that I don't think too
clearly. I did sound like a rude & ungrateful wretch, didn't I? :-)
If only my in-laws were willing to discuss things with us & try to
work out our problems, this gift thing & a lot of other problems could
probably be resolved to everyone's mutual satisfaction.
The main thing that bothers me is that I don't want to have a
superficial relationship with my in-laws, the kind reserved for very
casual acquaintances where you're polite to each other & observe the
social niceties but never get very close. But it seems that's what
our relationship is doomed to be like from now on, if we can even
remain civil to each other (that's the main thing my husband asks for,
but sometimes that's even hard). I just always wanted something
better. I never really believed the old stereotype of the
mother-in-law from hell, but now I know they exist. And I guess you
can't have it all - I have a wonderful husband & 2 wonderful kids, so
my in-laws must be the dark clouds in the silver lining.
Teri Miller
Beth Weiss <bwe...@CS.Arizona.EDU> wrote:
>John Federkins <jo...@federkin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I don't think of gifts that way either. But my in-laws are the ones
>>who insist on doing it this way. THEY were the ones who said that
>>they'd like to get us one large gift each year that we can use around
>>the house or whatever we'd like, and because they'd like it to be
>>something we can use, THEY insist that we pick it out.
>
>wants, I suspect is for you to mindread and GUESS what they want to
>give you, and then ask for that. That's all but impossible, of
>course, but that would probably make them very happy.
>
each of them, "independently", to ask the MIL for something that's
completely outrageous, like stuffed mooseheads. Can you imagine the
look on her face? If she historically gets the brother just what he
wants, this could really throw her for a loop. Especially when she
goes to the other brother, and he asks for the same dippy thing!
OK, maybe I'm the daughter-in-law from h*ll, but personally, I think
that any inlaw that is playing the kind of games the MIL is playing
deserves to have someone play 'em right back at her.
Teri
--
Teri Miller <sha...@rahul.net>
Ellen Boyle
John Federkins <jo...@federkin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>I guess I didn't give enough info the first time, but sometimes I get
>so ticked off when I think about the whole mess that I don't think too
>clearly. I did sound like a rude & ungrateful wretch, didn't I? :-)
>If only my in-laws were willing to discuss things with us & try to
>work out our problems, this gift thing & a lot of other problems could
>probably be resolved to everyone's mutual satisfaction.
>
>The main thing that bothers me is that I don't want to have a
>superficial relationship with my in-laws, the kind reserved for very
>casual acquaintances where you're polite to each other & observe the
>social niceties but never get very close. But it seems that's what
>our relationship is doomed to be like from now on, if we can even
>remain civil to each other (that's the main thing my husband asks for,
>but sometimes that's even hard). I just always wanted something
>better. I never really believed the old stereotype of the
>mother-in-law from hell, but now I know they exist. And I guess you
>can't have it all - I have a wonderful husband & 2 wonderful kids, so
>my in-laws must be the dark clouds in the silver lining.
>
I have a similar situation to Jenny's with my in-laws and gift-giving
can be particularly excruciating. My MIL insists on giving me gifts
that are what she wants me to be like, rather than what I am like.
(She has known me for over 15 years!)
I.e., for some reason, it really bugs her that I like & usually only wear
100% cotton. She makes it a point to buy me clothing that isn't (mentions
it: "Oh, I know it's not cotton, but I have it and just love it" - now
she is 30 years older than me!). I smile, say thank you & some honest
remark like "this is a lovely color, sweaters come in handy, etc." Then
my MIL says "If you don't like it please let me know so I can return it.
I would hate for it to go to waste". So I believe her & later on I say,
"It really doesn't look good on me (true!)" and she gets pissed off.
Every xmas she asks what we need, and she proceeds to buy us something
else. I feel just like Jenny -- why ask? Also, I would just rather
say thanks, take all the gifts (she buys us each a half dozen or so),
and return the ones I don't want. I have done this and when she visits
mentions she doesn't see a particular item she has given us and tells my
husband the hardships she went through to get it for us. UGH. I don't
want ANY presents from this woman!!! She sort of knows that I don't like
them, is kind of testing me somehow. She gives us so many gifts (she's
a shopping fiend) we couldn't possibly use or keep all of them in our
very small home. One xmas she offered to help us buy a sofa instead of
individual gifts since we were "so hard to please". It was great! But
we liked it too much so now we're back to individual gifts.
I think it is some kind of control issue. It is threatening to her that
we have different tastes and wants than hers. My mother fortunately
honors that difference and when I open a present from her I can tell she
put on her "Ellen" glasses to pick it out. When buying gifts I try to
think of the person I am buying for. I think my MIL does this, she also
is trying to improve or change who she is buying for.
-Ellen
Chirlian Lisa E
not be demanding in advance, and appriciate the thought involved,
etc., etc., isn't there some ettiquette rules for the _giver_ as well?
For example, isn't it rude if I someone gives me a workout tape
because _she_ thinks I am overweight?
A family friend gave me an XXX as a wedding shower gift.
Nothing wrong there, right? Well, she had received XXX as a gift
herself, and showed it to another member of my family, describing at
as "hideous". My family member was quite upset at the time (although
I don't think anything was ever said to the family friend, and the
family friend was thanked, by me, appropriately)). Was that rude? (I
wasn't upset by the whole affair, although I wasn't particularly fond
of XXX. My SIL loved it, so I gave it to her and everyone was happy!)
Also, is it appropriate to _demand_ that your gift be used?
After my wedding friends came over and _searched_ our house for their
gift (a vase). I was quite embarrased because I couldn't find it and
didn't remember until later that it had been taken to the florist to
be fitted with a silk flower arrangement. I sensed that my friend
thought that we returned the vase and it was an awkward moment until I
remembered where it was.
To bring this back to kids, I think that people concentrate on
teaching kids how to receive gifts graciously, but less on how to give
gifts graciously. Thoughts?
Lisa
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lisa Chirlian lchi...@cc.brynmawr.edu
Department of Chemistry, Bryn Mawr College, Bryn Mawr, PA 19010
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
jen hassler
: To bring this back to kids, I think that people concentrate on
: teaching kids how to receive gifts graciously, but less on how to give
: gifts graciously. Thoughts?
I have made a concerted effort to help my girls learn to give gifts
graciously. It isn't as easy as it sounds. As we looked for a birthday
gift for Dad recently, I ended up sounding ridiculous, repeating "Is that
something you want or something that your Dad would enjoy" over and over
as they picked out things like Power Ranger toys and books on sharks as
gifts. Mind you, if either girl had said "Yes, I think that Dad would
really like this talking Power Ranger doll." I would have expressed my
doubt, but told them that the decision was theirs.
In the end, they choose to buy him a Far Side t-shirt (he has several
that he wears all the time) and several packs of Magic: the Gathering
cards (our current addiction).
But, come Christmas, I am sure that I will once again spend alot of time
reminding the girls that the gift they give should refect the tastes of
the reciever, not their own.
Sue Meger
>
>Personally, I don't consider letting someone choose what gifts to buy
>for you to be walking all over you. There may be other issues
>involved, but as for this one, I think you've got a heck of a lot of
>nerve being mad because they don't buy you what you want them to.
I agree that the post the above paragraph was in reference to had
some rather impolite and ungracious sentiments.
OTOH, maybe the anger the original poster felt had more to do
with what she did get and what that signifies, rather than that
she's mad about not getting something else.
Like the time my MIL (not my *legal* MIL--my partner and I aren't
legally married) gave me a cubic zirconium ring as a Christmas
gift, because it was high time that *someone* give me an engagement
ring.
Sue
Leah and Shawn Johnson
at the beginning.
Beth Weiss (bwe...@CS.Arizona.EDU) wrote:
: John Federkins <jo...@federkin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: >Also on the subject of thoughtless gifts, my mother-in-law tends to
: >try to give everyone duplicate gifts.
: Is this due to a mis-placed sense of trying to keep everything equal?
^^^^^^^^^^
: My mother sometimes tries to do that so noone feels slighted, even if
: it would make more sense to buy different things for each person.
^^^^^
So instead you should let a person make a senseless ass of themselves, it
is the only decent thing to do.
: >Same things goes for us 4 adults. Last Christmas, I wasn't on very
: >good speaking terms with my mother-in-law (long story!), & she never
: >asked if there was anything I could use as a gift.
: I wouldn't expect someone to ask me what I could use (or might want)
: as a gift. They can, of course. But if they don't, and choose to buy
: me something, there's no reason for me to think they should have asked
: what I wanted.
I can. After a number of errors, no one in my family or my husband's
tries to buy me clothing without my trying it on first. Also my interests
and tastes are radically different than anyone elses.
: >present per couple at X-mas, & a bunch of smaller things. Luckily we
: >can pick out our own larger gift without *too* much hassle.)
: This sounds as if you think your 'larger gift' is something that you
: can pick out and get someone else to pay for. That's not how I think
: of gifts, myself.
Much better to have people feel that their money is wasted when it turns
out that the gift is useless to you.
: >we did). When we were expecting Nicholas, we had to put up a fight
: >for her not to buy us the same baby gift as she got for them. She
: >even asked us what we needed, & we told her a highchair, but I can't
: >count the number of times she kept saying that she bought a stroller
: >for them. At the time, we did not have a stroller, but I wasn't going
: >to let her get us the same gift.
: You weren't going to LET HER get you the same gift? Sheesh. The
: woman wants to buy you a gift, and you don't want to LET HER decide
: what it's going to be? I find this unbelievable--and rude.
What I find unbelievably rude is that someone is so insensitive and
uncaring that they don't recognize that you are an individual and not a
clone. When it is the thought that counts, no one should have to deal
with a COMPLETE LACK THEREOF.
: >She thinks she can just do whatever
: >she wants, but I don't appreciate the fact that she thinks she can
: >walk all over us & we'll just lay there like doormats.
: Well, from my point of view, if buying you a stroller is walking all
: over you like a doormat, then she should spend her money on herself
: and not on you.
If she got a stroller when a high chair is what was needed, then it seems
to me that she did spend the money on herself, because she certainly
didn't have anyone elses best interests at heart.
: >I know it's not necessarily polite to complain about the presents one
: >receives from someone,
: It is not polite--you can leave the word 'necessarily' out--it is not
: polite.
: >and I know I probably sound ungrateful, but I
: Yes you do
: >object to always receiving duplicate gifts as people who have
: >different interests than I do, & whom I don't particularly like
: >anyway.
: I can see that you object, but it does strike me as rude and
: ungrateful. Personally, I find it more productive to be tolerantly
: amused that my mother thinks that we still will fight and be jealous
: if she doesn't treat us identically--even if we are all grown up.
Nothing says love like being thoughtless when it is the thought that
counts, right Beth? Better to suck it up and pretend everything is
alright than to point out to someone that what they are doing is hurting
you. After all, pointing such a thing out is 'rude'.
: >She can't seem to get it
: >through her head that John & I are not carbon copies of his brother &
: >wife, who aren't even that great of human beings,
: How charming of you.
I find HONESTY charming, but if you prefer omissions or lying, at least
I'll recognize your individuality.
: >and that our kids
: >aren't the same & may not have the same interests. If it turns out
: >that they do, I don't object to duplicate gifts, but my children are
: >individuals, not clones of their cousins. What makes it even worse is
: >that for a long time, my in-laws were not on speaking terms with their
: >older son & his wife, & even during that whole estrangement period, we
: >still got the same gifts!
: During that estrangement time, they still BOUGHT gifts--and for you
: when you weren't on speaking terms with them, they bought gifts for
: you too. Sounds as if they're being incredibly nice.
: >Is there a newsgroup for in-law bashing? It's not something I
: >necessarily enjoy, but my husband doesn't always want to hear it (he
: >does agree with me on a lot of points), & I need to vent somewhere!
: >I've always wanted to have a good relationship with my in-laws, & for
: >a while we were doing fine, but that was when we let them walk all
: >over us (yes, I know - our first mistake, & we've been paying for it
: >ever since). It's just worse now that we have kids of our own.
: Personally, I don't consider letting someone choose what gifts to buy
: for you to be walking all over you. There may be other issues
: involved, but as for this one, I think you've got a heck of a lot of
: nerve being mad because they don't buy you what you want them to.
I don't consider letting someone choose what gifts to buy for someone
else to be walking over them *unless* they show a complete lack of
thought in the choice of gift. Arizona Beth? How'd you like a heavy
winter coat........or how about a surf board?
Leah Johnson
(hint: Don't try buying clothes for people unless you know basically what
size they wear and what colors they look good in. Also, try getting at
least the tiniest clue of what the person's lifestyle is.)
(biggest hint of all: do what is necessary to let the person know that
you really care about them, and not just yourself.)
John Federkins
> Also, is it appropriate to _demand_ that your gift be used?
>After my wedding friends came over and _searched_ our house for their
>gift (a vase). I was quite embarrased because I couldn't find it and
>didn't remember until later that it had been taken to the florist to
>be fitted with a silk flower arrangement. I sensed that my friend
>thought that we returned the vase and it was an awkward moment until I
>remembered where it was.
I hate to keep harping on the mother-in-law subject, but it has
happened several times in the past where my MIL has come over & looks
for things that they gave us (she tries not to be real obvious about
looking, but you can tell by the way she noses around). She always
makes a point of commenting on things she does see, but if she doesn't
see something & if it'll fit into the conversation, she'll say "didn't
we give you such and such?" I have even heard her make comments to
another relative who was present at the time.
I didn't think this was appropriate. After someone gives you a gift
and you thank them properly, the present should be yours to do with
what you will, right? If it's something that you can use & it's on
display in your home or wherever, I'm sure the giver would feel
complimented that you are using their gift. But if you can't use it
or don't like it or whatever, I don't think you should be forced to
account for its whereabouts. It does put the receiver in a very
awkward position.
Chirlian Lisa E
> >Now, they were from a relative, and I know she put a great deal of
> >thought and effort into them, but *bibs*? I wrote a lovely thank-you,
> >and put them away!
>
> What is stupid about hand embroidered bibs? I have given them as gifts.
> I find them beautiful yet useful. Being handmade, they showed I cared
> to put so much work into them.
YMMV! Abby received a hand made bib as a gift. At first, I
didn't want to use it, because I was afraid it would get dirty. But,
what are bibs for? I compromised, the hand made bib is Abby's "dress"
bib. I use it when we go out so it gets used once or twice a week,
and it still looks fine. I don't use it for vitamins or for Abby's
favorite "utensils optional" meals :-).
I like having one nice bib. All the rest of Abby's bibs are
hand-me-downs from Libby so it is extra special. This bib is also
functional (large, pulls over the head, absorbs well, can double as a
face cloth...). Personally, I wouldn't use a "decorative" bib (small,
ties around the neck, non-absorbant), but then neither of my kids are
major spitters/droolers (at least not to date).
Lisa (Liby's (3.75 years) and Abby's (13.5 months) mom)
Alison
jo...@federkin.demon.co.uk writes:
>. After someone gives you a gift
>and you thank them properly, the present should be yours to do with
>what you will, right? If it's something that you can use & it's on
>display in your home or wherever, I'm sure the giver would feel
>complimented that you are using their gift. But if you can't use it
>or don't like it or whatever, I don't think you should be forced to
>account for its whereabouts.
I agree with this, and it has reminded me of something else horrible. My
grandmother does not seem to understand the idea that once she gives a
gift, it isn't hers anymore. One time when I was in high school, she
came over and asked me where a certain toy was she had given me when I
was little. I said I didn't know, and she said if I wasn't going to use
it, she wanted it back! She has also laid claim to some silverware she
originally bought for my mother's wedding, and to a gold bracelet she
bought for my mother (my mother moved out of the house without getting
those items, and was never able to get them back...). But the worst
thing she did was to come and confiscate a child's table and chair set
she had given me when I was young. After I outgrew it, I passed it on to
my little brother, and he had it for several years. One day she saw it
in his room (he was 7 or 8), went in there while he was away, and took
the table and chair away! She just threw his stuff on the floor. She
said she'd given the table to ME, not HIM, and if I weren't using it, she
was taking it back. Naturally, she had no use for it and just threw it
in a junk room in her house. He cried for hours because it seemed she
didn't love him. At 20, he still talks about it.
--Alison
Merle Finch
In article <3uk1fj$i...@natinst.com>, Alison <alison.de...@natinst.com> writes:
:
:I agree with this, and it has reminded me of something else horrible. My
:grandmother does not seem to understand the idea that once she gives a
:gift, it isn't hers anymore.
This is the most amazing thing about some gift-givers: the notion that they
can take the gift back when they want. This has happened to me on several
occasions and, under some circumstances, it is particularly distressing.
There's an inherent cruelty in this behaviour when it's directed towards
an adult, but it's unforgivably cruel when it's directed toward a child.
--
Merle Finch me...@sas.com SAS Institute Inc,
SAS Campus Dr, Cary NC USA 27513-2414.
Opinions expressed probably never reflect those of SAS Institute Inc.