20/20 and Spanking
Chris Himes
on Friday night or not. I found it really eye-opening. Maybe it's because
I'm such a new parent (13 mos) and I haven't yet had to deal with real
rebelliousness, but I was really shocked watching how some parents deal with
children. There was one couple who smacked their children's hands for
playing with their food, not paying attention, playing with their nose,
etc.--these kids were like 2 and 4. The scene that was most disturbing, and
most telling, was when a father asked his twin daughters to come to him for
their spanking. The girls cowered a few feet away, they wanted to obey but
were scared of their father. They slowly inched forward, crying and
shrinking. I couldn't watch without my stomach tightening.
It really reconfirmed our intentions to raise Douglas in a "no-hitting"
household. I know that conviction will be sorely tested over the years, but
I hope my memories of this show will make it easier. Did anyone else have a
similar reaction to the program?
Chris
Nola Van Vugt
In article <92306.13...@psuvm.psu.edu> Chris Himes <CL...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>I don't know if anyone else happened to catch the 20/20 segment on spanking
>on Friday night or not. I found it really eye-opening. Maybe it's because
>I'm such a new parent (13 mos) and I haven't yet had to deal with real
>rebelliousness, but I was really shocked watching how some parents deal with
>children. There was one couple who smacked their children's hands for
>playing with their food, not paying attention, playing with their nose,
I don't have a tv so I didn't see the show but I remember an incident
with some "Friends of friends" that showed up at our annual easter egg
hunt several years ago. Their little boy was just at that age where
kids are amazed that every time they drop something it *always* goes
down and when it hits the floor it stops (with the sole exception of
helium balloons, of course). The parents had already made it
clear that they consider children to be similar to robots that needed
to be programmed before they would function when they described in detail the
great difficulty they had had trying to teach their son how to roll
over ("and then one day he just did it! I don't know what we did
differently to finally get through to him!") They wanted to know how
they could make him stop dropping things, especially food from his
high chair. The mother said,"We slap his hand *every* time he
does it and even when his little hand is bright red and swollen from
being slapped, he still keeps on doing it." And, no, these were not
some semi-literate, drugged-out and otherwise dysfunctional parents --
they were your standard-issue yuppies that really believed they were
doing what was best for their child. I believe I said something about
it being "just a phase" and that if they ignored the behavior it would
go away of its own accord, but I could tell they didn't believe me.
-nvv
David Shackelford
>I'm such a new parent (13 mos) and I haven't yet had to deal with real
>rebelliousness
I wonder if the "experts" on the program have kids. If not, they're
not any better informed than you are.
The scene that was most disturbing, and
>most telling, was when a father asked his twin daughters to come to him for
>their spanking. The girls cowered a few feet away, they wanted to obey but
>were scared of their father.
This was the high point of the show for me. Those girls weren't
afraid of their father, they were afraid of the spanking. IMHO
this is a good thing, as they are probably nearing the point
where fear of the spanking makes them do what they ought to.
That is the point of spanking -- to reach the point that you
don't need to because the children mind.
I know that fear of being smacked won't keep kids in line
forever, and you have to instill values eventually. Between
the ages of ~3 and ~10, however, I don't care _why_ the child
behaves properly, just that she does. Too much of our social
deterioration is due to the failure of parents to manage their
childrens behavior during the "in-between" years.
I know from experience (both giving and receiving) that it works,
and it doesn't necessarily ruin you for life. For some kids
it doesn't work as well as other methods, for some kids it works
much better. Do whatever you feel is right, and works for your
kids -- please make sure they're not brats.
Alan Yasutovich
I am a believer in "spanking". I find it most effective when
they are very young, and less effective as they are older.
But I found that couple's use of continued slapping reprehensible.
Those kids are going to have a twitch. And I personally knew
a guy who did. You'd better not come up behind him and scare
him, or accept the consequences when he jerks in a reflex and
possibly punches you in the head. His mother hit him all the time.
I slapped Stacey (3) last night; once on the bum, for deliberately
ignoring me. I hadn't hit her maybe in months. Don't have to.
But I thought those people were cruel.
--
Alan Yasutovich
"inquiring (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Karen Prestemon
>
>I know that fear of being smacked won't keep kids in line
>forever, and you have to instill values eventually. Between
>the ages of ~3 and ~10, however, I don't care _why_ the child
>behaves properly, just that she does. Too much of our social
>deterioration is due to the failure of parents to manage their
>childrens behavior during the "in-between" years.
My mother smacked my brother around *often*--much moreso than my sister
or myself. For one thing, she didn't grow up with males around the
house (her father left when she was young, with no brothers). So
Mom didn't understand anything about little boys' behavior. Furthermore,
Michael was diagnosed as being hyperactive, a condition he had little
or no control over. In addition, studies show that parents who smoke
during pregnancy and when their children are young, which mine did,
those kids are VERY LIKELY to have behavioral probelms.
My brother, now 21, was VERY rebellious in high school, did a lot of drugs,
is an alcoholic, used to own a gun before he sold it to a friend,
failed the ninth grade at TWO different Fairfax County public high
schools, etc. All that discipline really whipped him into shape. NOT!
Now, are you trying to tell me that none of those factors matter,
and in fact EXCUSE the constant spankings my brother received?
I'd like to add that I saw a news program within the last couple
years (don't remember which, but the focus, I think, was "The
Terrible Two's). They interviewed pediatricians and experts on
children's behavior, who said that parents often expect
behavior of children, long before they are physically and mentally
able to comply. Take potty-training, for example. For obvious
reasons, people rush their kids to potty train them, sometimes
long before their sphincters (sp?) have developed to the point
when they CAN control them!
Andy Lowry
> >I'm such a new parent (13 mos) and I haven't yet had to deal with
> >real rebelliousness
>
> I wonder if the "experts" on the program have kids. If not,
> they're not any better informed than you are.
This is an extremely appealing and yet totally foolish stand. You
don't have to have kids to study statistical correlations between
parenting practices and behavioral patterns in the children. You
don't have to have kids to be able to interview the kids and the
parents, as well as the same kids years later to get a measure of
things like self-esteem, outlook on life, etc. and look for
correlations with child-rearing practices. In general, you don't have
to have experienced a particular situation first-hand to be able to
study those who have and become knowledgeable about it. In fact,
first-hand experience can often color perceptions so as to inhibit
effective study. And by claiming that the original poster (and I) are
not well-informed on the issue of disciplining rebellious children,
just because we haven't yet experienced it, is absurd. There's such a
thing as accumulating the collective experience of generations of
society, analyzing it to see what works and what doesn't, and then
spreading that knowledge in advance so each new parent doesn't have to
go in blind. That's what the experts devote their career to! They do
something valuable!
> The scene that was most disturbing, and
> >most telling, was when a father asked his twin daughters to come
> >to him for their spanking. The girls cowered a few feet away,
> >they wanted to obey but were scared of their father.
>
> This was the high point of the show for me. Those girls weren't
> afraid of their father, they were afraid of the spanking. IMHO
> this is a good thing, as they are probably nearing the point where
> fear of the spanking makes them do what they ought to. That is the
> point of spanking -- to reach the point that you don't need to
> because the children mind.
I don't care whether the girls were afraid of their father or of the
spanking he was about to administer. The fact that he was willfully
causing such fear in them was sickening to me. The point of spanking,
as far as I can see, is to achieve a short-term fix for behavioral
problems, rather than making the investment in longer-term, more
effective alternatives. It's easy to point to the girl who finally
stayed in her bed for her time-out after being spanked and say, "See,
spanking worked!" Well of course it kept her in bed that time. Fear
tends to paralyze people, children and adults alike. But how
effective was that aspect of the discipline in terms of raising a
well-adjusted child who will feel good about life and will treat
people with dignity and respect? The experts that you so readily
dismiss are apparently in nearly universal agreement that spanking not
only does not contribute to this long-term goal, but in fact
undermines it.
> I know that fear of being smacked won't keep kids in line
> forever, and you have to instill values eventually. Between
> the ages of ~3 and ~10, however, I don't care _why_ the child
> behaves properly, just that she does. Too much of our social
> deterioration is due to the failure of parents to manage their
> childrens behavior during the "in-between" years.
Maybe during the in-between years we should just keep our kids chained
to their beds. Then they won't have any opportunity to misbehave, and
by your measure we'll be effective parents. I know this is stretching
your point beyond what you could possibly have had in mind (at least I
*hope* it is), but your statement that you don't care why the child
behaves properly is, to me, outrageous. The ends do not justify the
means in a case like this, where the means can potentially cause
terrible side-effects.
> I know from experience (both giving and receiving) that it works,
> and it doesn't necessarily ruin you for life. For some kids
> it doesn't work as well as other methods, for some kids it works
> much better. Do whatever you feel is right, and works for your
> kids -- please make sure they're not brats.
Yes, this is the primary goal for parents... that their kids not be
brats. The happiness of the child, and the satisfaction they get from
life, are secondary concerns. Just make sure the parents' job isn't
any more difficult than it has to be during the time they're
responsible. After that, the child (now an adult) can deal with
their own miserable life, and the parents will be off the hook.
Sure, spanking "doesn't necessarily ruin you for life," but that's
hardly a recommendation, is it? Some people are able to successfully
recover from lives of crime or drug abuse, so these things don't
necessarily ruin you for life either. But I don't plan on including
these as cornerstones of my child's upbringing!
Think about how easy it is to rationalize spanking:
- the experts don't really know anything (always a popular defense
against an expert who tells you something you don't like)
- the experts keep changing their minds anyway... just look what
they were telling us twenty years ago! (of course they do... it's
the nature of research and discovery of knowledge that what we
know at any given moment is only an approximation to reality;
hopefully the approximation becomes more accurate over time)
- it worked for me (maybe it's not the spanking that worked for you,
but other aspects of your upbringing or your own constitution that
were able to counteract the effects of spanking)
- there's no single answer; everybody should do what feels right for
them (that is, ignore whatever evidence is out there to
countermand this appealing common-sense approach)
- it works (yes, it's very easy for the parents... not much
creativity needed, and very little emotional or time commitment,
and it clearly achieves short-term results and may in many cases
achieve long-term results as well... but at what price?)
- my parents did it, and they raised umpteen kids, so they should
know what works and what doesn't (yeah, and my monther smoked
three packs of cigarettes a day, starting on the advice of her
doctor (at the time it was thought that cigarettes were a good
idea for their relaxing effects), and she's none too healthy for
it today)
- kids in the "in-between" years won't understand any other form of
discipline (after only 13.5 months, I'm constantly amazed at what
my daughter understands; I have no doubt that very shortly she'll
be able to start making correlations between bad behavior and
disciplines like time-out's; until that capability materializes,
any form of discipline seems pretty pointless)
The person who ignores the experts is a fool. So is the person who
blindly accepts what the experts have to say. If you're not in a
position to check what the experts say (e.g. can't spare the time to
check out the studies), you're forced to be one kind of fool or the
other, and the latter kind is usually far less foolish.
--
Andy Lowry, lo...@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7925
IBM Research, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
Allen Warren
>You don't have to have kids to study statistical correlations between
>parenting practices and behavioral patterns in the children. You
>don't have to have kids to be able to interview the kids and the
>parents, as well as the same kids years later to get a measure of
>things like self-esteem, outlook on life, etc. and look for
>correlations with child-rearing practices. In general, you don't have
>to have experienced a particular situation first-hand to be able to
>study those who have and become knowledgeable about it. In fact,
>first-hand experience can often color perceptions so as to inhibit
>effective study. And by claiming that the original poster (and I) are
>not well-informed on the issue of disciplining rebellious children,
>just because we haven't yet experienced it, is absurd. There's such a
>thing as accumulating the collective experience of generations of
>society, analyzing it to see what works and what doesn't, and then
>spreading that knowledge in advance so each new parent doesn't have to
>go in blind. That's what the experts devote their career to! They do
>something valuable!
Study and practicality are totally different ends of the spectrum.
One can collate data and analyze ad infinitum, but that doesn't mean
that the result of data collection & analyzation is right. I will agree
that one doesn't have to have a child or two to analyze the effects of
"spanking", in fact, having a child can possibly prejudice any conclusion.
It should be noted though that in having a child to raise, one can
possibly see why the urge to spank can come rather easily.
>I don't care whether the girls were afraid of their father or of the
>spanking he was about to administer. The fact that he was willfully
>causing such fear in them was sickening to me. The point of spanking,
>as far as I can see, is to achieve a short-term fix for behavioral
>problems, rather than making the investment in longer-term, more
>effective alternatives. It's easy to point to the girl who finally
>stayed in her bed for her time-out after being spanked and say, "See,
>spanking worked!" Well of course it kept her in bed that time. Fear
>tends to paralyze people, children and adults alike. But how
>effective was that aspect of the discipline in terms of raising a
>well-adjusted child who will feel good about life and will treat
>people with dignity and respect? The experts that you so readily
>dismiss are apparently in nearly universal agreement that spanking not
>only does not contribute to this long-term goal, but in fact
>undermines it.
You state that you see spanking as a way for parents "to achieve a
short-term fix for behavioral problems." I disagree. In having two
boys, ages 1.5 years and 3.5 years, we have had a few occasions (maybe
twice a month) to spank our older boy and it's not because of any
problem, it's because he has gotten himself so emotionally charged
about something that the spanking (one rap on the rump, nothing more)
disrupts the rise in his emotional anger and brings him back to reality.
After we spank him, we always bring him in and love and hug him and
ask him if he realizes why we spanked him. In every instance, he
realizes why we did and we then talk about what upset him so much to
take him to this point.
>Think about how easy it is to rationalize spanking:
I don't rationalize spanking. I only see it as a tool to lead to
effective discussion. I don't believe it will need to be used for
years and years and years, but "time-outs" and "go to your room!"
don't work forever.
>The person who ignores the experts is a fool. So is the person who
>blindly accepts what the experts have to say. If you're not in a
>position to check what the experts say (e.g. can't spare the time to
>check out the studies), you're forced to be one kind of fool or the
>other, and the latter kind is usually far less foolish.
It's good to read and read and read, but at some point, the parents
need to figure out what is the best course of action. I think the
best course of action is to simply read as much as possible and work
with your own child(ren). My wife and I view our children as people
who are really kids with open and wonderful minds. Sometimes they
need to be guided and sometimes they need to guide us and we have to
be ready to listen.
allen
Patti Twigg
>
>I'd like to add that I saw a news program within the last couple
>years (don't remember which, but the focus, I think, was "The
>Terrible Two's). They interviewed pediatricians and experts on
>children's behavior, who said that parents often expect
>behavior of children, long before they are physically and mentally
>able to comply. Take potty-training, for example. For obvious
>reasons, people rush their kids to potty train them, sometimes
>long before their sphincters (sp?) have developed to the point
>when they CAN control them!
I went to a seminar 2 weeks ago about alternatives to physical
punishment for kids, and the speaker said potty training is the
number one reason given for physical child abuse. I can believe
that!!
Patti Twigg
Mikemoe
>In article <92306.13...@psuvm.psu.edu> Chris Himes <CL...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>>I don't know if anyone else happened to catch the 20/20 segment on spanking
>>on Friday night or not. I found it really eye-opening. Maybe it's because
>>
>>household. I know that conviction will be sorely tested over the years, but
>>I hope my memories of this show will make it easier. Did anyone else have a
>>similar reaction to the program?
>>
>>Chris
>
> I am a believer in "spanking". I find it most effective when
> they are very young, and less effective as they are older.
>
> But I found that couple's use of continued slapping reprehensible.
> I slapped Stacey (3) last night; once on the bum, for deliberately
> ignoring me. I hadn't hit her maybe in months. Don't have to.
>
> But I thought those people were cruel.
>
>--
> Alan Yasutovich
I also think spanking is a viable part of child-raising. Besides, I enjoyed it as
a kid :)....but seriously,....
I didn't watch the special, nor do I have kids of my own yet, but my wife and
I agree that spanking will be a PART of our parenting. The best rule of thumb
that I have heard was this: Spanking should only be done when the child
deliberately disobeys and/or defies your authority. This implies that the child
is old enough to do so. So, I agree with Alan.
--Mike "not a parent yet" Miller
---
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Michael Miller mil...@oakhill.sps.mot.com |
| (512) 891-8582 Motorola - Semiconductors Austin, TX |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Better not take a dog on the space shuttle, because if he |
| sticks his head out when you're coming home his face might |
| burn up. -- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
cobar...@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov
I am writing to 20/20 to protest their unprofessionalism and irresponsible
journalism! This was not informative. It was SICK! The parents that constantly
hit their kids need help. They are sick.
For 20/20 to air that without detailing alternatives to spanking was wrong! I
watched the report, but it was real hard. I felt sorry for those kids. What
20/20 should have done was provided alternatives to parents who think spanking
is the "right" thing to do. Spanking is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. There
is only very very rare situations that require a ceremonial "pop" and the pop
shouldn't be one that physically hurts the child.
Let me give some ideas about how I would have handled some of the things they
pointed out:
1) The 2-3 year old at the grocery. Although the parent didn't hit the child,
she was about to if the child didn't sit under the basket after the count of
three. WHAT SHOULD SHE HAVE DONE? how about:
a. Dont take a 3 year old to the store! I dont like to shop myself, what
makes anyone think a 3 year old would want to sit under a basket for 30 minutes
while you shop? Disfuse the situation before starting it! Leave her at home!
b. If you have to take the child, go for short controlled buying sprees.
Marathon shopping will not only bore you, but also the child. You cant expect a
child to sit under a basket for 30 minutes. Go to the store more often. Buy
only a few things at one time. Go for specific items with a well prepared list.
c. Give the child something to do while waiting. Coloring book, a childs boom
box to sing with, puzzles, books. But realize they will tire of these fast.
d. Take someone with you. You shop, they chase.
2) The lady who was fighting with her 6 year old daughter over wearing a hat to
bed. WHAT SHOULD SHE HAVE DONE? (at least 20/20 tried to address this, but very
superficially)
a. The parent has to lighten up. So the HELL what if the child wants to wear
a hat to sleep? If the child gets hot, what do you think she will do? HUH?
Maybe like...a lets see....take it off? DUH! Lighten up! What does it hurt?
b. Make light of the situation! If for some unknown reason you just cant go
to sleep knowing she is sleeping with a hat on, then make light of it. Kid with
her about how funny it is. Or exagerate it by getting a 10 gallon hat out of
the closet and lay down with her with it on.
c. Defuse the situation by taking her mind off the hat. (geez this is stupid
to think someone actually hit a kid for wearing a stupid hat to bed) Divert her
attention to something else to wear. This works for little kids like 2-3 year
olds. When you have developed a relation like the one shown and the kid is 6
years old, it becomes very hard!
3) Spanking the kid for soiling her pants. HOW BARBARIC! HOW PATHETIC! The poor
kid is in a learning stage. In time she will realize that crapping in her
diaper not only feels bad, it smells bad. In time and with some encouragement
she will out grow this. Shoot, when was the last you saw a teenager crap in
their pants? WHAT SHOULD HE HAVE DONE?
a. How about talking with the kid and encouraging using the potty? It is
obvious that this parent wanted the "shortcut" method and didn't want to take
the time to teach his kid. Instead a good down home beatting would do the
trick.
b. How about reading a book and learning the techniques for potty training a
kid?
c. How about realizing some kids learn faster than others and have patience.
(Remember, teenagers dont crap in their pants!)
4) How do you keep kids from going into the street? The trash parents just
wacked the hell outa their kids when they followed them into the street. WHAT
SHOULD HE HAVE DONE?
a. Verbally and forcefully tell the kid not to go into the street. It works.
b. Tell the kids something positive to do instead of using the DONT word. Such
as instead of "Dont go into the street!" say "Lets stay on the sidewalk". (If
there is a possible situation where the child is in danger of getting hurt,
then do WHAT EVER IS NECESSARY to get the child out of danger!)
c. In that particular case, the trash mother was just watching the kid. How
about staying closer to the child. Or how about the trash father taking the
child with him by the hand?
It was obvious one pair of parents that I consider trash, didn't want to take
the time to train, develop or grow with their children. Instead they wanted to
control and hit their kids into submission. It is just pathetic!
As you can see, I am very much against spanking. I bought a 3 cassette course
prior to my 2 1/2 year old daughter was born. I thought at first it was stupid,
what could a cassette course teach me that I know already? But what the heck it
was only $15.00. It was full of revelations. And the one that I have learned
the most from was the part about not spanking your children. It was
informative. It gave suggestions like the ones above. It has kept me from
spanking my daughter since day one, except for the 2 times I used the
ceremonial "pop" on the leg, which is designed to defuse an out of control
child, BUT NOT TO INFLICT PAIN! Because of this my wife and I NEVER spank our
baby. We dont have a discipline problem and we dont have a loud mouth, back
taling, manipulating child either.
If anyone is interested in this course, I would be more than happy to let you
have the copy I have just as long as you pass it on when finished. I can
provide you a phone number also.
*****************************************************************
John R. Cobarruvias, Texas A&M Class of '78,
NASA Johnson Space Center Houston Tx.
(713)483-9357
"And to think..................I hesitated" (Hellraiser II)
*****************************************************************
Anne-Marie Olinger
I didn't see 20/20 and had no desire to. The commercial alone were
repulsive.
It all comes down to respect. Just because these people are children
they don't deserve respect? Would you slap your adult friend for
entering your house with muddy feet or yell at them for spilling
their drink? I seriously doubt it? Why then would you do the same
to children?
--
Thanks, Anne-Marie
*--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Anne-Marie L. Olinger E-MAIL: a...@unx.sas.com
Software Production Systems MA-BELL: (919) 677-8000 x.6890
SAS Institute Inc. Cary, NC
Leigh Ann Tanner
|> In article <92306.13...@psuvm.psu.edu> CL...@psuvm.psu.edu (Chris Himes) writes:
|> >I'm such a new parent (13 mos) and I haven't yet had to deal with real
|> >rebelliousness
|>
|> I wonder if the "experts" on the program have kids. If not, they're
|> not any better informed than you are.
|>
|> The scene that was most disturbing, and
|> >most telling, was when a father asked his twin daughters to come to him for
|> >their spanking. The girls cowered a few feet away, they wanted to obey but
|> >were scared of their father.
|>
|> This was the high point of the show for me. Those girls weren't
|> afraid of their father, they were afraid of the spanking. IMHO
That depends on how much they've been spanked!! They could very
well have been afraid of the father. Eventually they will if
it keeps up long enough. I can state that for a fact!!
|> this is a good thing, as they are probably nearing the point
|> where fear of the spanking makes them do what they ought to.
And why does spanking make them do what they "ought to"? And
what does spanking have to do with the offending behavior?
|> That is the point of spanking -- to reach the point that you
|> don't need to because the children mind.
|>
|> I know that fear of being smacked won't keep kids in line
|> forever, and you have to instill values eventually. Between
|> the ages of ~3 and ~10, however, I don't care _why_ the child
|> behaves properly, just that she does. Too much of our social
|> deterioration is due to the failure of parents to manage their
|> childrens behavior during the "in-between" years.
|>
|> I know from experience (both giving and receiving) that it works,
|> and it doesn't necessarily ruin you for life. For some kids
|> it doesn't work as well as other methods, for some kids it works
|> much better. Do whatever you feel is right, and works for your
|> kids -- please make sure they're not brats.
|>
And not spanking does not make them "brats".
Leigh Ann
tan...@sundog.nas.nasa.gov
M17...@mwvm.mitre.org
a perfect opportunity to encourage non-spanking, but instead of showing useful
alternatives, they focused on one particularly cruel set of parents. I love to
listen to the experts give advice on 'time-outs, and revoking privileges'--
something that is essentially useless with anyone that isn't old enough yet to
speak or have privileges (ie., a 1 year old). My son is perfectly capable
of manipulating adults, he does it with ease with my parents, to such an extent
that they have NO IDEA he's doing it. He's just too cute.
I agree that spanking is not the means you should begin with, but I also believ
e that if nothing else works(including timeouts) a slap on the hand for touchin
g something. Or a swat on the behind for mouthing off, can be appropriate.
BUT ONLY if you have COMPLETE control, and are not truly angry. If you are
truly angry, put the child in their room and explain you are angry with them,
and they can come out when they learn how to listen. Don't deal with a child
of any age when you are angry, you will only hurt them physically or mentally
both are horrible.
Ellie Blackwell
Kathy Wilk
sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>>I'm such a new parent (13 mos) and I haven't yet had to deal with real
>>rebelliousness
>I wonder if the "experts" on the program have kids. If not, they're
>not any better informed than you are.
> The scene that was most disturbing, and
>>most telling, was when a father asked his twin daughters to come to him for
>>their spanking. The girls cowered a few feet away, they wanted to obey but
>>were scared of their father.
>
>This was the high point of the show for me. Those girls weren't
>afraid of their father, they were afraid of the spanking. IMHO
>this is a good thing, as they are probably nearing the point
>where fear of the spanking makes them do what they ought to.
>That is the point of spanking -- to reach the point that you
>don't need to because the children mind.
>
or pediatrician, who probably IS a parent) said that the behavior of those
parents bothered him because it came near to being abuse.
There were several suggestions about how to discipline (teach) children
without spanking. They were good suggestions, but the point was made that
they take more of a parent's time. One couple took the suggestions and said
that they worked! The parents mentioned above said they didn't work and the
impression I got was that they basically weren't interested. They were very
adamant that what they were doing was the ONLY way for their kids. They
spanked for almost everything - in most cases, a sharp slap, sometimes, more
than that. They spanked a child in training pants because she got her pants
dirty (toilet training by spanking?).
K. Wilk
M18...@MBVM.MITRE.ORG
<--********************************-->
'Thrusting my nose firmly between his teeth, I threw him to the ground
on top of me.' - Mark Twain
<--********************************-->
cobar...@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov
mil...@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Mikemoe) writes:
>In article 10...@ll.mit.edu, ya...@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>>
>I also think spanking is a viable part of child-raising. Besides, I enjoyed it
as
>a kid :)....but seriously,....
>
>I didn't watch the special, nor do I have kids of my own yet, but my wife and
>I agree that spanking will be a PART of our parenting. The best rule of thumb
>that I have heard was this: Spanking should only be done when the child
>deliberately disobeys and/or defies your authority. This implies that the
child
>is old enough to do so. So, I agree with Alan.
This also implies the child disobeys and/or defies your authority for a
particular reason. Maybe you should spank the person who has instill
disobedience and attack the underlying problem.
>
>--Mike "not a parent yet" Miller
>
>---
>+--------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Michael Miller mil...@oakhill.sps.mot.com |
>| (512) 891-8582 Motorola - Semiconductors Austin, TX |
>+--------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Better not take a dog on the space shuttle, because if he |
>| sticks his head out when you're coming home his face might |
>| burn up. -- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey |
>+--------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>
*****************************************************************
Cindy Windham
I _am_ a parent, and I have a 3 1/2yo boy, who gets extremely
out of control after eating candy. We've suspected it for awhile,
but Halloween really confirmed it. When "under the influence",
he throws things at our heads, jumps from one bed to another,
tries to climb the walls, etc. I am absolutely certain that there
would be no way to discipline him with spanking when he is on a
sugar-high, unless you consider "beating" the same thing as "spanking".
Furthermore, it wouldn't be fair to spank a child for disobedience
when they cannot control themselves because of something they've
eaten, would it?
- Cindy
Andy Lowry
> lo...@watson.ibm.com (Andy Lowry) writes:
>
> >You don't have to have kids to study statistical correlations
> >between parenting practices and behavioral patterns in the
> >children.
> Study and practicality are totally different ends of the spectrum.
I agree that they don't necessarily coincide, but I wouldn't
characterize them as totally different ends of the spectrum either.
But thanks for pointing out that in practice much depends on good,
situation-dependent judgment, an important point that I omitted.
...
> It should be noted though that in having a child to raise, one can
> possibly see why the urge to spank can come rather easily.
Yes, I expect to have my beliefs about spanking sorely tested from
time to time. :-(
> You state that you see spanking as a way for parents "to achieve a
> short-term fix for behavioral problems." I disagree.
I was more all-inclusive than I should have been here. I should have
said that in all-too-many cases, I expect that this is what's going on
despite whatever the parent may tell you. The family with the twin
girls in the 20/20 report struck me as a case in point; I didn't
believe for a minute what the parents were saying in defense of their
constant spanking. I'm not saying they weren't sincere, just that I
don't believe they understand their own motives. I could be wrong,
but that's how it appeared to me after all of 5-10 minutes.
> In having two boys, ages 1.5 years and 3.5 years, we have had a few
> occasions (maybe twice a month) to spank our older boy and it's not
> because of any problem, it's because he has gotten himself so
> emotionally charged about something that the spanking (one rap on
> the rump, nothing more) disrupts the rise in his emotional anger
> and brings him back to reality.
I've heard this argument before, and while I'm not convinced, we're
clearly talking about something very different from the use of
spanking as punishment. If I understand you correctly, you're using
it for its shock effect, just to pull the brakes on an otherwise
out-of-control situation (an effect that would be totally lost if you
were to use it routinely as punishment anyway). But then I'm
wondering if something else couldn't be used equally effectively for
the same purpose. Like clapping your hands loudly. I seem to recall
a teacher who would slap a yardstick sharply on her desk whenever the
class was getting out of control. It was pretty effective at
arresting whatever was going on momentarily, and that was usually all
she needed to get back some control.
> After we spank him, we always bring him in and love and hug him and
> ask him if he realizes why we spanked him. In every instance, he
> realizes why we did and we then talk about what upset him so much
> to take him to this point.
If you're going to spank, I'm glad you're overcompensating. I think
you'd have to be very careful about sending mixed messages. I know
from personal experience how hollow "You know I love you" can sound
when it's interspersed with verbal abuse from a drunken parent.
[Allen, I don't mean to imply anything about your situation at all...
just making a general comment about words of love mixed with actions
or other words that can send a contrary message.]
...
> It's good to read and read and read, but at some point, the parents
> need to figure out what is the best course of action. I think the
> best course of action is to simply read as much as possible and work
> with your own child(ren). My wife and I view our children as people
> who are really kids with open and wonderful minds. Sometimes they
> need to be guided and sometimes they need to guide us and we have to
> be ready to listen.
Well put.
Lady Dragon
It seemed to me (just from the commercials, I didn't get to see the show) that
they were going to show parents that almost everyone would think was overdoing
it. You don't really need to spank your kids in the fashion of holding them
down and whacking them a bunch of times. My mom did this occasionally and I only
resented it. I do occasionally have to whack my children to show them that I
mean what I said. It is only to ge their attention, not to punish.
For instance, often my son will go to bed and play around with me and try to get
up form bed. He will try to turn it into a game, despite my saying in a firm
voice that he must stay in bed. I sometimes will have to spank (one whack only)
him to show him that I am not playing and he must listen to what I'm saying.
It does not have to be an all-or-nothing deal. Just as in all things, moderation.
* * email address: nuchat!xcluud!glnserv!kati * Houston, Texas, USA, Earth * *
Lady Dragon
>
> In article <92306.13...@psuvm.psu.edu> Chris Himes <CL...@psuvm.psu.edu>
My ex- would do something simular to this to our daughter. He would whack
her bottom for any little thing she did wrong in an effort to be "consistant".
He wouldn't even try to talk to her or attempt any other methods of discipline
because he was afraid of confusing her, I guess. One of the reasons, he's an ex-
Paulette Leeper
>This was the high point of the show for me. Those girls weren't
>afraid of their father, they were afraid of the spanking. IMHO
>this is a good thing, as they are probably nearing the point
>where fear of the spanking makes them do what they ought to.
>That is the point of spanking -- to reach the point that you
>don't need to because the children mind.
Or, you THINK they are minding. For me, being physically
intimidated by my parents did not teach me to mind them...it
taught me not to trust them with my physical well-being.
So, I hid myself from them...and learned how to lie.
This overwhelming fear taught me to isolate myself from
them, even when I wasn't hiding any wrong-doing, because
I just feared THEM.
>I know that fear of being smacked won't keep kids in line
>forever, and you have to instill values eventually. Between
>the ages of ~3 and ~10, however, I don't care _why_ the child
>behaves properly, just that she does.
It doesn't matter what means are used, just so they're effective?
It doesn't matter what lasting effect such means have on
your future relationship?
>I know from experience (both giving and receiving) that it works,
>and it doesn't necessarily ruin you for life.
And, I know from experience (just the receiving end, thank you)
that it DOESN'T work and the effects of it came damn close
to ruining my marriage.
Paulette Leeper
Proud mom to Sarah (4-28-89), well-behaved and NEVER spanked.
--
Paulette Leeper paulett...@daytonOH.NCR.COM
NCR Corporate Data Planning & Admin ...!uunet!ncrcom!wtcp!pleeper
++++++++++++++++513-445-6289 VP 622-6289 FAX 513-445-2468+++++++++++++++++
Karen Prestemon
>short-term fix for behavioral problems." I disagree. In having two
>boys, ages 1.5 years and 3.5 years, we have had a few occasions (maybe
>twice a month) to spank our older boy and it's not because of any
>problem, it's because he has gotten himself so emotionally charged
>about something that the spanking (one rap on the rump, nothing more)
>disrupts the rise in his emotional anger and brings him back to reality.
>After we spank him, we always bring him in and love and hug him and
>ask him if he realizes why we spanked him. In every instance, he
>realizes why we did and we then talk about what upset him so much to
>take him to this point.
>
>effective discussion. I don't believe it will need to be used for
>years and years and years, but "time-outs" and "go to your room!"
>don't work forever.
>
me that you can only have an effective discussion with him after
you've slapped him on his behind? (In my opinion, one slap is one
too many) Whe you get a little stressed out and "emotionally charged"
over something that happened at work, do you need someone to spank
you in order to wind down? If your son can discuss what got him
so upset after you smack him, have you tried discussiong it BEFORE
you hit him? And how are you going to facilitate "effective
discussion" when the child is a teenager?
For one who doesn't rationalize spanking, you've attempted to justify
it here by telling netters about your kids. Your argument is hardly
convincing.
No, I do not have kids, but I was one once. I posted about my brother,
the drug addict, who was spanked more often than myself or my sister.
Yeah, my mother and father were trying to do the same thing--head him
off the emotional pass when he acted out as a young child. Well,
when he got to be the rebelious teenager that he became, my father,
who HATES to hit people, found that this was the only way to get
his 17 year-old son to listen to him, because it was the only
way they'd used to get his attention as a child. My father today
is regretful that he and Michael are not close. Hey, you reap what
you sow!
--Karen
P.S. I love my parents, but I strongly disagree with some of their
methods.
Karen Prestemon
about, but I do have a serious question for the parents who DO spank,
and who have more than one child.
If your oldest hits one of his/her younger siblings, what do you do?
Donald Newell
>In article <24...@optima.cs.arizona.edu> sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David
>Shackelford) writes:
>
>>This was the high point of the show for me. Those girls weren't
>>afraid of their father, they were afraid of the spanking. IMHO
>>this is a good thing, as they are probably nearing the point
>>where fear of the spanking makes them do what they ought to.
>>That is the point of spanking -- to reach the point that you
>>don't need to because the children mind.
>
>Or, you THINK they are minding. For me, being physically
>intimidated by my parents did not teach me to mind them...it
>taught me not to trust them with my physical well-being.
>So, I hid myself from them...and learned how to lie.
>This overwhelming fear taught me to isolate myself from
>them, even when I wasn't hiding any wrong-doing, because
>I just feared THEM.
>
>
>--
>Paulette Leeper paulett...@daytonOH.NCR.COM
>NCR Corporate Data Planning & Admin ...!uunet!ncrcom!wtcp!pleeper
I have to agree that Think is the operative word here. My wife is always
having kids over for various activities. The kids who are spanked are
absolutely the worst behaved once their parents leave. I've basically
come to the conclusion that parents - myself included - are often
clueless about the behavior of their children when they are not around.
Imagine having a 350 lb. weightlifting hells-angel hang around our homes
telling you us how to behave. I'm sure we'd only need to be beaten up
once or twice before we learned not to "defy" his will (or is that mouth
back, I can never get it straight which ones require we assult our
children). In any case, I'm sure we would have different behaviors for
our protector than for our friends. Its no different with kids.
Don N.
Rich Littell
cobar...@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
> In article <92306.13...@psuvm.psu.edu> Chris Himes <CL...@psuvm.psu.edu>
> writes:
> [stuff about the 20/20 spanking report]
>
> I am writing to 20/20 to protest their unprofessionalism and irresponsible
> journalism! This was not informative. It was SICK! The parents that
constantly
> hit their kids need help. They are sick.
>
> For 20/20 to air that without detailing alternatives to spanking was wrong! I
> watched the report, but it was real hard. I felt sorry for those kids. What
> 20/20 should have done was provided alternatives to parents who think
spanking
> is the "right" thing to do. Spanking is wrong and shouldn't be
tolerated. There
> is only very very rare situations that require a ceremonial "pop" and the pop
> shouldn't be one that physically hurts the child.
>
>
>
> *****************************************************************
> John R. Cobarruvias, Texas A&M Class of '78,
> NASA Johnson Space Center Houston Tx.
> (713)483-9357
>
> "And to think..................I hesitated" (Hellraiser II)
> *****************************************************************
>
John,
I agree with you 100 percent. I am sick and tired of documentarys that
point out a problem and don't offer any solution.
And as for spanking children - those people are rather low as far as
I am concerned.
Let us know what 20/20 response is to your letter.
Rich Littell
David Albert
Is there anyone who taped it who would be willing to send me a copy of
the tape (of course, I'll pay for the tape and the shipping).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Albert | Illegitimi non carborundum est.
alb...@das.harvard.edu |
mark.d.wuest
I didn't mean to pick this person out in particular, but several of
the postings have used arguments that equate children with adults.
eg: "How would YOU feel if...".
This is such an incredibly emotional topic. I would GUESS that those
who feel the most strongly (either way?) were abused by their parents,
but I could be wrong. Either way - when you fill your argument with
false premises, you actually end up lending credibility to the opposing
view, so be careful that your feelings don't control your reasoning.
My wife and I (still childless) have two very good friends who have
three children and who ask us for advice on child rearing (go figure.
Actually, we both have worked with the children at church for a long
time).
This is just one issue we aren't decided on regarding our children.
Neither of us feels strongly either way (though both of us were spanked
some as children). I DO feel STRONGLY that spanking when you are angry
is .... well, it makes me angry to see it because of what it seems to do
to the kids. Believe it or not, teachers can tell a lot about your
home life by how secure and happy your children are...
ANYWAY - we have been observing and questioning the parents of children
that we want OUR kids to be like (happy, secure - yea, I know we're
dreaming ;-)). In every case where we KNOW whether or not they
spank, they DO - in very, very limited situations. We started asking
not so much for our (future) children, but to help the aforementioned
family. He asked me and I told him I thought he was REAL trigger-happy
with the spankings (hey, if he didn't want to know, he shouldn't have
asked). He only does it now for what we call "extreme rebellion".
To me, it seems to have a place, but parents seem to swing to extremes
based on their own experience. What is more interesting is that the
same abusive childhood can create parents who are themselves abusive
(IMHO) AND parents who refuse to spank. They BOTH feel STRONGLY that
their way is right....
Mark (and no, this isn't why we haven't had kids yet!) ;-)
--
Mark Wuest | *MY* opinions, not AT&T's!!
mark....@att.com |
m...@cheshire.att.com (NeXT Mail) |
Clare Chu
>In article <24...@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
>sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>>>I'm such a new parent (13 mos) and I haven't yet had to deal with real
>>>rebelliousness
>>
>without spanking. They were good suggestions, but the point was made that
>they take more of a parent's time. One couple took the suggestions and said
>that they worked! The parents mentioned above said they didn't work and the
>impression I got was that they basically weren't interested. They were very
Maybe I'm naive, but I haven't felt any need to spank either. My son
is 21-months old and very cooperative. Maybe I should knock on wood
because I've heard about terrible twos. But I don't consider what
he does rebellious, it's just his little way of asserting himself.
So I don't get upset. I haven't needed to do time-outs either and
they don't work for his pinching and hair-pulling. What works when
he pinches or pulls my hair is to hold his hands for 30 seconds or
so and tell him not to do it and then distract him. He's also very
sensitive to our feelings so that sometimes he gets upset if we say
"Uh-oh you spilled it." and then we have to tell him, "It's okay,
you didn't do it on purpose." I really have to be careful not to
yell at him because he'll get his feelings hurt. He's really careful
about not spilling things or dropping food on the floor (my m-i-l
is a neat-nick and I know she doesn't spank or even yell). So it seems
like you don't need to spank or yell because most of the things they
do aren't that bad anyway. Am I too lenient? I cannot think of
anything my son does that would require discipline. I certainly
cannot imagine spanking or chastising for toilet-training accidents.
My son has peed on the floor, in fact he thinks it's fun, but I
don't get upset. I just mop it up or if it's on the carpet, I'll put
the super pet-odor carpet cleaning powder on it and then vacuum when
dry? What do people discipline their children for? In other words,
what are appropriate disciplines and what are the "crimes"?
The only thing I can think of is pinching, hair-pulling but in my
son's case he's only doing it for fun, and not out of anger. And
if he throws himself on the floor for a tantrum, I just usually let
him go at it and comfort him because he's having a bad day. He's
also pretty well behaved in stores or at other people's homes so
I don't have to do any disciplining there either.
Clare Chu
>In article <17...@wtcp.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> ple...@wtcp.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Paulette Leeper) writes:
>>Or, you THINK they are minding. For me, being physically
>>intimidated by my parents did not teach me to mind them...it
>>taught me not to trust them with my physical well-being.
>>So, I hid myself from them...and learned how to lie.
>>This overwhelming fear taught me to isolate myself from
>>them, even when I wasn't hiding any wrong-doing, because
>>I just feared THEM.
>
>
> having kids over for various activities. The kids who are spanked are
> absolutely the worst behaved once their parents leave. I've basically
> come to the conclusion that parents - myself included - are often
> clueless about the behavior of their children when they are not around.
> Imagine having a 350 lb. weightlifting hells-angel hang around our homes
> telling you us how to behave. I'm sure we'd only need to be beaten up
> once or twice before we learned not to "defy" his will (or is that mouth
> back, I can never get it straight which ones require we assult our
> children).
I definitely think so too. I was a kid who was spanked, sometimes
for my brother or sister's misbehavior. This was on the grounds that
I'm the oldest (by one year) and therefore I should have been able
to control them. So I figured, if I'm going to get spanked anyway
I might as well join in on the fun instead of being their little
policewoman. So my parents had 3 hell-raising toddlers on their
hands instead of none. In fact my youngest sister used to threaten
us with things like, "If you don't give this to me I'm going to
tell a lie that you hit me." So since we were going to be punished
anyway, we'd go ahead a hit her too!
And spare me the "It hurts me more than it hurts you line." I
always remembered the spanking to be unjustified. I never remember
what I supposedly did to "deserve" it. I'm sure my parents had
their reasons, but to a kid, it just seems like they're mad.
My cousins, who were spanked, used to pull knives under the table
at their parents. They would pretend to comply and go out and
do whatever they wanted. Spanking puts an adversarial relationship
between parents and children. My son is very cooperative and not
defiant at all. He doesn't need to test our limits because we
don't have any limits. Besides if he's defiant, like fighting
diaper changes, it's just his little way of asserting himself.
I don't feel like I should be in power just because I'm the parent.
Too many parents think the biggest crime is "being defiant" and
they are upset not at what the kid did, but "how dare they defy
me." Like they're some God or something.
Allen Warren
>In article <1992Nov2.1...@tessi.com> al...@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
>>
>>You state that you see spanking as a way for parents "to achieve a
>>short-term fix for behavioral problems." I disagree. In having two
>>boys, ages 1.5 years and 3.5 years, we have had a few occasions (maybe
>>twice a month) to spank our older boy and it's not because of any
>>problem, it's because he has gotten himself so emotionally charged
>>about something that the spanking (one rap on the rump, nothing more)
>>disrupts the rise in his emotional anger and brings him back to reality.
>>After we spank him, we always bring him in and love and hug him and
>>ask him if he realizes why we spanked him. In every instance, he
>>realizes why we did and we then talk about what upset him so much to
>>take him to this point.
>>
>>I don't rationalize spanking. I only see it as a tool to lead to
>>effective discussion. I don't believe it will need to be used for
>>years and years and years, but "time-outs" and "go to your room!"
>>don't work forever.
>>
>Your argument for spanking your child is silly. Do you mean to tell
>me that you can only have an effective discussion with him after
>you've slapped him on his behind? (In my opinion, one slap is one
>too many) Whe you get a little stressed out and "emotionally charged"
>over something that happened at work, do you need someone to spank
>you in order to wind down?
You're assuming I get stressed out at work. I don't and you shouldn't assume.
You don't know me, so don't hypothesize or lecture.
> If your son can discuss what got him
>so upset after you smack him, have you tried discussiong it BEFORE
>you hit him?
Yes, I have, many a time. I've read numerous books from experts and have
tried different approaches, trying them for months at a time to see if
they work out, rather than only a week at a time, which would undoubtedly
confuse a child.
>And how are you going to facilitate "effective
>discussion" when the child is a teenager?
My wife and I already talk about this. We have no clearly defined agenda,
but we struggle each and every day to find the right answers. It's not
always easy, but we really try to give our boys the chance to be kids
and yet we want to set limits on them and help guide them through this
crazy world. We try to glean, from books, other parents, our own past
triumphs and failures, a positive way to live with our boys as they grow
up.
>For one who doesn't rationalize spanking, you've attempted to justify
>it here by telling netters about your kids. Your argument is hardly
>convincing.
>No, I do not have kids, but I was one once. I posted about my brother,
>the drug addict, who was spanked more often than myself or my sister.
>Yeah, my mother and father were trying to do the same thing--head him
>off the emotional pass when he acted out as a young child.
I don't consider your history to be relevant in any sense to how my wife
and I are raising our children. You only look at child raising through
what happened to your brother. Since you don't have any children of
your own, you hypothesize how parents should raise children and you also
criticize me without even having an inkling of what it's like. Before
I had kids, it was so damn easy to say what I was going to do to make
sure *MY* kids were raised right. When our first came along, all of
my preconceived thoughts were thrown out the window. My boys are teaching
me a lot about being a kid just as my wife and I are attempting to teach
our boys about love, life, discipline, etc.
Maybe I didn't explain myself well before, but I also have a hard time
listening to your ramblings because you only present one side of the
story: your brother, the drug addict. You can say anything you want
in this group, but I find your criticisms rather empty since you have
done no research in child psychology and you have no experience in
raising children. I'm not saying you have to be a child psychologist
or a parent, but your response to my post does not show practical or
studied knowledge on child-raising other than yourself and your brother.
>P.S. I love my parents, but I strongly disagree with some of their
>methods.
Same here, and I'll bet that some day my kids will say the same about
my wife and I, and so on with their kids.
allen
Allen Warren
>you'd have to be very careful about sending mixed messages. I know
>from personal experience how hollow "You know I love you" can sound
>when it's interspersed with verbal abuse from a drunken parent.
>[Allen, I don't mean to imply anything about your situation at all...
>just making a general comment about words of love mixed with actions
>or other words that can send a contrary message.]
You've brought up a very good point. In fact, I thought about this and
spoke with my wife about it last night. What we decided was to make a
truly concientous effort to look at every situation where we might feel
the need to spank and say, "Hey, why do I really want to spank my son?"
Maybe by questioning myself I can look for a better alternative, like
holding either one out of the room, away from everybody else and talking
to him. I did do this last evening, where my son was looking with VERY
green (jealous) eyes at his younger brother and kicked him and knocked
him down. Instead of spanking or yelling at my oldest, I gently picked
him up and took him to another room, shut the door and, having his full
attention, talked with him about why he was upset and why he hurt his
little brother. We both felt better (at least he seemed to feel
better) about this exchange vs. a spanking and a hugging sometime after
the spanking.
> ...
> > It's good to read and read and read, but at some point, the parents
> > need to figure out what is the best course of action. I think the
> > best course of action is to simply read as much as possible and work
> > with your own child(ren). My wife and I view our children as people
> > who are really kids with open and wonderful minds. Sometimes they
> > need to be guided and sometimes they need to guide us and we have to
> > be ready to listen.
>Well put.
It's also good to converse on the net here, as it gave me new insite as
to other ways to learn to be a better parent and allow my kids to be
what they are: kids. =)
allen
David Albert
>I know that fear of being smacked won't keep kids in line
>forever, and you have to instill values eventually. Between
>the ages of ~3 and ~10, however, I don't care _why_ the child
>behaves properly, just that she does.
I feel the need to respond to this because my viewpoint is
diametrically opposed. I happen to believe that between the ages of
~3 and ~10, the only thing that matters in most cases (certainly in
any case in which you and the children are at home and in private and
there is no immediate threat to life) is _why_ the child is behaving
improperly, not that she is.
>Too much of our social
>deterioration is due to the failure of parents to manage their
>childrens behavior during the "in-between" years.
There are countless examples of children who were "managed" during
these formative years until it was too late to let them think for
themselves. But then, I suppose you believe in mindless obedience
to authority, while I happen to believe that that is just about the
worst possible thing in the world.
>I know from experience (both giving and receiving) that it works,
"It works" is a loaded phrase. Yes, children who are cowed into
submission will be quiet and "obedient" while the authority figure is
around, but for all the wrong reasons. Remove the authority figure
and you get Lord of the Flies. Change the authority figure only
slightly and you get Nazi Germany.
David Albert
>I agree that spanking will be a PART of our parenting. The best rule of thumb
>that I have heard was this: Spanking should only be done when the child
>deliberately disobeys and/or defies your authority. This implies that the
>child is old enough to do so. So, I agree with Alan.
I trusted and loved my parents and wanted to please them. For that reason,
I mostly did what they wanted. If they asked me to do something, they
knew they could count on me to do it unless I had a good reason. In the few
cases that I decided (for what seemed to me good and sound reasons) to
"defy their authority", the result was that they stopped and thought: "If
he won't do what I'm asking, there must be some good reason, or at least some
reason that seems good to him".
Isn't this what you expect from other adults in society?
Can't you give your children the same courtesy?
Susan Dewey
(mark.d.wuest) wrote:
> To me, it seems to have a place, but parents seem to swing to extremes
> based on their own experience. What is more interesting is that the
> same abusive childhood can create parents who are themselves abusive
> (IMHO) AND parents who refuse to spank. They BOTH feel STRONGLY that
> their way is right....
>
There are definately times when it is necessary to get physical with
kids...but
it also depends on the kid. Spanking Zack would probably have little or no
effect as a result of pain...he seems to have a _VERY_ high pain threshold,
falling, banging himself, crashing into things 'cause he was going to fast
or jumping off furniture. The one time I have hit him (a real hard smack
on the hand for playing with an electrical outlet after I told him to stop)
I
also went ballistic. That had more effect than the smack. He hasn't touched
outlets since.
One of his favorite tricks is to bash me in the chin with his head. Rather
than hitting him back, I quickly get him off my lap and sit him on the
floor
and refuse to pick him up until he understands that he mustn't do that
(he's
2yrs). Kicking is the other thing for which I will get him off my lap
quickly.
In neither of these instances do I think answering violence with violence
will teach the appropriate lesson...The lesson I want to teach is "you
shouldn't
hurt other people"...The lesson spanking in return for head butting or
kicking will teach is "I'm bigger, don't mess with me".
Marian H. Nodine
In article <1992Nov2.2...@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> cobar...@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
>This also implies the child disobeys and/or defies your authority for a
>particular reason. Maybe you should spank the person who has instill
>disobedience and attack the underlying problem.
Ummm, you don't usually have to teach a kid disobedience -- it seems to
come naturally. You *can* encourage cooperation, though, which does tend
to help things ...
-- Misty
Kristan Geissel
>r...@Turing.ORG (Karen Prestemon) writes:
>
>> If your son can discuss what got him
>>so upset after you smack him, have you tried discussiong it BEFORE
>>you hit him?
>
>Yes, I have, many a time. I've read numerous books from experts and have
>tried different approaches, trying them for months at a time to see if
>they work out, rather than only a week at a time, which would undoubtedly
>confuse a child.
My best friend (my daughter's godmother and loving "auntie Linlum") is
a Master's in Psychology, working with children and families. She was
shocked that my ex- and I agreed that a well placed swat at extremely
rare times under unusual circumstances was warrented, just as Allen has
noted in his child rearing techniques. After my divorce, and Linda's
subsequent increase in work in with families and various types of abuse,
Linda expressed once again her anger at this decision of mine. At this
point in Gwynne's life (4 years old) she had been swatted once (that I
was aware of - another story). After that, Linda actually became involved
more with Gwynne and the parenting process. Lo and behold, she found that
I was warrented in my general lack of energy at the the end of a work day,
she was amazed that I actually managed to keep from beating my child black
and blue on a daily basis and even came to accept the "one in a blue moon"
swat.
Until she was actually involved in the child rearing process, Linda could
not condone my behavior. I think that Allen is right in stating that Karen
has no basis for her arguement that spanking should never be condoned FROM
THE POINT OF VIEW THAT KAREN HAS NO CHILDREN. I still think everytime that
I spank Gwynne or recall having spanked her that I could have done better
but I am not sure of that. I constantly congratulate myself that over the
past 7 years I haven't deserted my child or beat her daily. The amount
of self-control that any parent has is to be applauded.
Kristan
gwy...@u.washington.edu
Kathy Wilk
>but we struggle each and every day to find the right answers. It's not
>always easy, but we really try to give our boys the chance to be kids
>and yet we want to set limits on them and help guide them through this
>crazy world. We try to glean, from books, other parents, our own past
>triumphs and failures, a positive way to live with our boys as they grow
>
>I don't consider your history to be relevant in any sense to how my wife
>and I are raising our children. You only look at child raising through
>what happened to your brother. Since you don't have any children of
>your own, you hypothesize how parents should raise children and you also
>my preconceived thoughts were thrown out the window. My boys are teaching
>me a lot about being a kid just as my wife and I are attempting to teach
>our boys about love, life, discipline, etc.
>
>Maybe I didn't explain myself well before, but I also have a hard time
>listening to your ramblings because you only present one side of the
>story: your brother, the drug addict. You can say anything you want
>in this group, but I find your criticisms rather empty since you have
>done no research in child psychology and you have no experience in
>
>>P.S. I love my parents, but I strongly disagree with some of their
>>methods.
>
>Same here, and I'll bet that some day my kids will say the same about
>my wife and I, and so on with their kids.
>
>allen
not believe in spanking by saying that she does not have kids and so can't
know what YOU have to deal with. Don't you think this is a shabby way of
discrediting someone's contributions to the discussion? She needn't have
done research in child psychology to offer her opinion. Or have given birth.
Your declarations that you work hard at parenting do not mean that your
choice to spank is right - they merely make you sound like 'good guy, only
means to do the right thing by spanking, etc'.
You probably don't know how your kids feel about your method of discipline.
When they are older and you do find out, remember your humble wish that your
kids will love you anyway. My experience has been that kids have a terribly
tight bond to parents and WANT to love them and will love them. It's a shame
that parents test that bond, indulging themselves by spanking the kids. It
is surprising that parents are shocked when kids tell them they are bitter or
resentful about having been spanked when they were young. Aren't parents to
be responsible for their actions?
By tomorrow, we will have a new president. I thought I heard a story about
how Bill Clinton knocked his stepfather down for hitting his mother (I have
heard other people tell similar stories and I have a cousin who put his own
father in the hospital when he had enough of domestic violence). Most
Americans do spank their kids. Using physical force in the home is the
American way ... and if you are raised with spanking, you will probably feel
comfortable doing it. Doesn't make it right. Having tried some other methods
and gone back to spanking (didn't work AS GOOD is my guess, not that it didn't
work) doesn't make it right either. Makes it your choice is all.
I have written about my active two-year-old and what he has done to try
my patience. I have 2 kids close in age which is a very stressful spacing
right now. Yesterday, I was amazed to hear his day-care-provider compliment
him because he gets toys to play with and PUTS them away. Wow! Being a
teacher in a Montessori school, she concentrates a lot on being gentle,
reinforcing good behavior a lot, persistently stressing how to keep the
play area in order, and keeping calm. In a room full of toddlers who
have 'ants in their pants' a lot of the time, she and the other 2 teachers
have only had to put a child in a time-out chair once, for agressively
pushing another child down.
Do I think that she just lucked out and has an 'easy' class or an 'easy'
job? No, I think she and the other teachers have developed some skills and
they stick to the job of discipline without physical force. They do that
job day after day. They know that their methods can work if children don't
have SERIOUS behavioral problems (my child biting and being bitten is not
considered a SERIOUS behavioral problem but if biting persisted, we would
all work out a plan of action). I admire the teachers because I know they
believe in gentle methods when working with kids!
Elizabeth Cyr Jones
>
>I know from experience (both giving and receiving) that it works,
>it doesn't work as well as other methods, for some kids it works
>much better. Do whatever you feel is right, and works for your
>kids -- please make sure they're not brats.
Disclaimer to everyone who reads this: I've temporarily lost my
mind, and don't realize I'm in misc.kids, not alt.flame.
This person (man, I think) is absolutely nuts, a wacko. He's not
the sharpest tool in the shed. His elevator doesn't go to the top
floor. Two bricks short of a load. Not enough furniture in the
attic.
There hasn't been anyone this stupid and insensitive since A. Idler
tripped his own idiotic thread a few weeks ago. And I can't believe
I even mentioned his name, because he probably heard me, and that's
going to get him started all over again.
This Chris person is so utterly moronic as to be unbelievable, and
it must be that this is just another case of an unattended monitor.
Liz Jones
Marian H. Nodine
OK, I'll bite. Timmy (age 4.75 ...) has never hit Anna (age 23 months).
I spank for one reason -- disobedience. If he did hit Anna, I would try
to figure out his motives for hitting her. If he did think he was
spanking her for doing something wrong, I would explain to him that
Anna does not need to obey him, therefore there is absolutely no basis
for him to spank her.
-- Misty
Andy Lowry
> ANYWAY - we have been observing and questioning the parents of
> children that we want OUR kids to be like (happy, secure - yea, I
> know we're dreaming ;-)). In every case where we KNOW whether or
> not they spank, they DO - in very, very limited situations.
I'd be interested to hear what you would find if you asked the parents
of kids you *don't* want your kids to be like. In a society in which
spanking is as widespread as I understand it to be in this country,
it's not surprising that you got the answers you got. It's also not
surprising to me that you didn't find anybody that spanks more than
rarely.
I think it's clear that it's possible to include spanking as a small
part of a sound and effective program of discipline. But from what
I've seen it's also possible, and not even very difficult, to develop
a sound and effective program of discpline *without* spanking. If
this is true and all other factors were equal, I don't think anybody
would disagree that spanking is cruel and unacceptable.
But of course, all other factors are not necessarily equal. In
particular, spanking seems to be somewhat easier for the parents in
some cases. It's also a familiar and therefore comfortable approach
for many parents. For me, the former is not a good enough reason, and
I'm fortunate enough not to be in the latter category.
Lynne Chantler
just over 10 months old and I haven't even gotten mad at her yet :-).
Usually when she does something that is a no-no, like touch the VCR, I
make her look at me and firmly say NO NO while I shake my head. At this
point she usually shakes her head too, smiles and continues to touch the
VCR. I will then go and physically remove her to the other side of the
room all the time saying no the VCR is mommy's. I will then give her a
toy and say this (toy) is Grace's.
My biggest problem is trying to keep a straight-face when I am attempting
to disipline her. Maybe that's why babies are so cute!
Now, I was spanked as a child and although I never thought of it as
abuse, thinking back there were some borderline incidents that today
would probably be considered abusive. I don't know if it was the
spankings, but I was a pretty rebellious teenager :-)
I realize that it is easy to fall into the patterns that one is taught in
their own upbringing, but I hope I never ever feel that spanking is the
answer for Grace.
There have to be better alternatives out there rather than hitting a
defenseless child. I want to have a close, open and loving relationship
with my daughter. I do not want her to fear me in the same way I felt
many times with my dad.
just my opinion,
Lynne
Mikemoe
spanking...I have voiced my opinions about the usefulness of
spanking in child-raising...
I wondered if there is a correlation between my (your) opinion of
spanking and what my (your) parents handled spanking in my (your)
childhood.
I personally can't remember be spanked more than 1 or 2 times, though
I KNOW that I was spanked more, but don't remember specific circumstances.
I'm proud of how my parents raised me. I think they did a good job...I had
a stable home, and we seem to respect authority more than others I knew.
Furthermore, I was raised in a devoutly Christian home.
[I know this might sound a little cocky...please forgive me if this is what
it sounds like]
So, if you were raised in a home where your parents spank, and they didn't
do so in an abusive manner, AND you oppose spanking, I'd sure like to hear
briefly why you do....either post, or email and I'll summarize. [I have been
following this thread, so no need to make it a long letter discussing what's
been said already. Please keep it brief]
--Mike
Susan Gauch
>In other words,
>what are appropriate disciplines and what are the "crimes"?
Well, I'm not a big fan of spanking, and have rarely used it.
After noticing what has "caused" Laura's 4 spankings in her
4 years, I notice a trend. In all cases, I was home alone with
her in the evening while her father was working (i.e. we're both
tired and I haven't had a break all evening). In 3 of the cases,
Laura was refusing to stay in her room after bedtime (i.e. it's REALLY
late and I'm REALLY tired and she's disobeying me). Note - bedtime
for Laura is 9:00. We spend 1/2 - 1 hour alone in her room playing,
reading books, getting ready. However, she can pop out of her room
every 5 minutes from 9:00 until 12:00 upon occasion. In these cases,
I tried time-out, I tried "I'll check on you in 5 minutes" I tried
"If you come out again, you'll have a spanking" I spanked. She still
came out of her room afterwards. I don't spank for this reason anymore
because she finally is able to play in her room alone if she's not tired
(Laura is 3.9 now).
The 4th time had some of the same variables - I'm alone with the kids, Laura
is disobeying. I warned her to stop slamming doors but she
persisted. Well, she slammed the bedroom door and trapped the
baby's fingers under it (luckily, we have deep carpet which "gave" and
he just got a minor scrape). However, I'll admit that I "lost it" and
spanked her (3 light swats on the bottom) out of anger. She wasn't
hurt (I'm never THAT angry) but it's a situation that I normally
wouldn't spank for and apologised to her. I only feel comfortable
spanking when there have been warnings in advance.
Oh, I remember a 5th occasion (in 2 years, basically from age 2 - almost 4).
She had a monster tantrum and was way out of control. The spanking served
to break her violent behaviour and cry on my lap rather than throw toys
and furniture around the room. This is the only spanking that, in
retrospect, I would administer again. It changed her behaviour
and allowed her to calm down. Kind of like slapping someone who is
hysterical.
Having identified what causes me to spank when I'd really rather not
(generally, fatigue) I hope to be able to modify MY behaviour in the
future. I remember, vaguely, receiving spankings as a child. I think
that I can recall 2 (but I don't remember what they were about). I
don't harbour ill-will to my parents and I'm sure Laura doesn't against
us. She certainly shows no fear of us :-) and is quite willing to
disobey :-) :-) However, she's now older and able to reason far better
so I doubt there will be many, or any, more.
--
Susan Gauch
sga...@flora.ccs.northeastern.edu
Allen Warren
Kathy, I never stated that she couldn't offer her opinion, I stated that I
found her "criticisms rather empty" because she was only offering a background
of what happened to her before. Then again, in reading back to her response to
my earlier posting, I really didn't offer any evidence to state that it was
okay to spank, no matter if it was once or 100 times. As it is, I have already
started to try to NOT spank at all, mainly because of the postings in this
group on the subject.
> Your declarations that you work hard at parenting do not mean that your
>choice to spank is right - they merely make you sound like 'good guy, only
>means to do the right thing by spanking, etc'.
Agreed.
> You probably don't know how your kids feel about your method of discipline.
>When they are older and you do find out, remember your humble wish that your
>kids will love you anyway. My experience has been that kids have a terribly
>tight bond to parents and WANT to love them and will love them. It's a shame
>that parents test that bond, indulging themselves by spanking the kids. It
>is surprising that parents are shocked when kids tell them they are bitter or
>resentful about having been spanked when they were young. Aren't parents to
>be responsible for their actions?
In all honesty, most parents are not trying to test the bond. We're merely
trying to wade through a sea of right's and wrong's to figure out how best to
raise a child. As a parent yourself, you have to know how difficult this whole
issue is.
Please remember that these people, while having lots of patience and foresight,
only see children during daytime hours and their (teachers) role is to watch
and teach the children. They don't have to fold laundry, clean the house,
go grocery shopping, etc., etc., etc., that my wife and I must do to keep our
household going. My oldest is in preschool and I've taken a few days off to
spend the day with him and find it's pretty great. I mean, he's playing with
other kids his age or a year older, he's got access to finger-painting, a smock
to wear while he's painting, bikes to ride on impulse, all sorts of games to
play, rest time at a specified time with all the other kids, etc. I'm not
putting down the teachers because they really do work their collective butts
off, but the kids get constant, undivided attention either directly from
teachers or from other kids their own age. Interacting at home with siblings
and parents is, I contend, quite a bit different.
allen
Kathy Wilk
gwy...@stein.u.washington.edu (Kristan Geissel) writes:
...
>subsequent increase in work in with families and various types of abuse,
>Linda expressed once again her anger at this decision of mine. At this
>point in Gwynne's life (4 years old) she had been swatted once (that I
>was aware of - another story). After that, Linda actually became involved
>more with Gwynne and the parenting process. Lo and behold, she found that
>I was warrented in my general lack of energy at the the end of a work day,
>she was amazed that I actually managed to keep from beating my child black
>and blue on a daily basis and even came to accept the "one in a blue moon"
>swat.
>
>Until she was actually involved in the child rearing process, Linda could
>not condone my behavior. I think that Allen is right in stating that Karen
>has no basis for her arguement that spanking should never be condoned FROM
>THE POINT OF VIEW THAT KAREN HAS NO CHILDREN. I still think everytime that
>I spank Gwynne or recall having spanked her that I could have done better
This attitude that anyone who has not given birth can't know about how to
treat children is pretty pervasive - I have heard it several times in this
newsgroup. What a crock (excuse my language)! Once in awhile, a friend of
mine babysits for my two kids. She doesn't have any herself, but she and her
husband are considering kids. I let her babysit for a short while and then
my husband and I laugh because she tells us that she didn't have time to do
the dishes, didn't have time to read an article I gave her, didn't put the
leftovers in the refrigerator, etc., because she was too EXHAUSTED!
We laugh about it. We would NEVER tolerate her using physical force on
our kids because the work is exhausting. And we wouldn't want her to strike
a child just because it was our child (=property); WE DON'T DO IT and we don't
think it is right for anyone else to do 'because taking care of kids is such
a tough job...'
Allen Warren
> This attitude that anyone who has not given birth can't know about how to
>treat children is pretty pervasive - I have heard it several times in this
>newsgroup. What a crock (excuse my language)!
Whoa Kathy! Let's get back to square one. My original post stated that I
had difficulty in accepting criticism from someone whose only experience was
relating to the outcome of her drug-abusive brother. I was criticized for
not lending any credence to why a child should be spanked. In retrospect, I
never wanted to give the impression that I thought it entirely okay to spank,
only that I have spanked. In fact, after reading and discussing this subject,
I've talked with my wife and am trying to understand my boys better so as NOT
to spank.
allen
Basil Hamdan
|> My daughter is 2.5 years old and we havent spanked her, but there
|> are I sure harder times ahead.
|> I hope I can continue this AND instill obedience, love, and family values.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Arrrghhhh !!!!!
family values, what's that ??
I have been strongly influenced by Quayle's convention speech.
NOT!!!!
|> *****************************************************************
|> John R. Cobarruvias, Texas A&M Class of '78,
|> NASA Johnson Space Center Houston Tx.
|> (713)483-9357
|>
|> "And to think..................I hesitated" (Hellraiser II)
|> *****************************************************************
____________________________________________________________________
QUOTE OF THE DAY:
Our values are creating jobs in America.
^^^^^^ -- Vice President Dan Quayle answering Chris Wallace's
question: "[The Council on Competitiveness] has made it
easier for businesses to exceed pollution levels, it has
delayed regulations on aircraft noise, it has weakened
regulations to make apartment buildings more accessible to
wheelchairs. Are those your values?"
(ABC's "Prime Time Live," August 10, 1992)
___________________________________________________________________________
;-) ;-) ;-)
Basil
cobar...@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov
writes:
different approach instead of spanking can do a world of good. I have talked
with parents at work who wont even try an alternative or listen to possible
alternatives. My daughter is 2.5 years old and we havent spanked her, but there
are I sure harder times ahead. I hope I can continue this AND instill
obedience, love, and family values.
Andy Lowry
> is a Master's in Psychology, working with children and families.
> She was shocked that my ex- and I agreed that a well placed swat at
> extremely rare times under unusual circumstances was warrented
> After that, Linda actually became involved more with Gwynne and the
> parenting process. Lo and behold, she found that I was warrented
> in my general lack of energy at the the end of a work day, she was
> amazed that I actually managed to keep from beating my child black
> and blue on a daily basis and even came to accept the "one in a
> blue moon" swat.
I think there's an important distinction to be made here. On the one
hand, we've heard people claim that spanking is an appropriate means
of discipline under certain circumstances. What you've said sounds
more like: spanking is not an appropriate means of discipline, but
parents are human and faced with an immensely difficult and stressful
task, and should not be chastised if, very occasionally, they spank in
spite of their own beliefs. I can certainly accept the latter; though
I personally haven't yet been pushed beyond my own limit in this area,
but I won't say it'll never happen. I hope that when my child is an
adult, I'll be able to say it *didn't* happen, but that's as much as
I'll ever be able to say.
> Until she was actually involved in the child rearing process, Linda
> could not condone my behavior. I think that Allen is right in
> stating that Karen has no basis for her arguement that spanking
> should never be condoned FROM THE POINT OF VIEW THAT KAREN HAS NO
> CHILDREN.
If Karen had condemned a parent for small transgressions when severly
tested, I'd agree she should reserve judgment until she has
experienced the stress of parenting first-hand, if not forever. But I
think she was arguing basic philosphy, and I don't believe you need to
be a parent to have a philosphy of discipline that is as valid as that
of any parent.
> I still think everytime that I spank Gwynne or recall having
> spanked her that I could have done better but I am not sure of
> that.
This is part of the basis for my above interpretation of your
position.
Mikemoe
>mil...@oakhill.sps.mot.com writes:
>
>>I agree that spanking will be a PART of our parenting. The best rule of thumb
>>that I have heard was this: Spanking should only be done when the child
>>deliberately disobeys and/or defies your authority. This implies that the
>>child is old enough to do so. So, I agree with Alan.
>
>I trusted and loved my parents and wanted to please them. For that reason,
>I mostly did what they wanted. If they asked me to do something, they
>knew they could count on me to do it unless I had a good reason. In the few
>cases that I decided (for what seemed to me good and sound reasons) to
>"defy their authority", the result was that they stopped and thought: "If
>he won't do what I'm asking, there must be some good reason, or at least some
>reason that seems good to him".
>
>Isn't this what you expect from other adults in society?
>
>Can't you give your children the same courtesy?
Ok, I realize my previous statement above was too vague or general to be
a working definition. Let's hope I can rephrase it better.... :)
Let's start with beliefs....
1) I firmly believe that to spank a child in and of itself is not bad or wrong.
This follows from my literal interpretation of the Bible. (After, God is
'smarter' than any psychologist!)
2) From the same Bible, it says...Father do not provoke your children to wrath..
This means to me...when I use spanking, I need to make sure it's done at the
correct time/reason in the correct frame of mind.
So, briefly, IMO spanking is not wrong...in fact, I feel God gives parents this
responsibility when it is required (<---when is it required....I know, loaded
question).
My 'rule of thumb' above used 'defied authority deliberately' I still stand by
this, but then I need to qualify it better.
* After age XX (5?,6?, 7? who knows, depends on the child) spanking is not
effective, nor is it probably the best form of punishment...
* Reasoning with young children isn't going to have the desired affect all the
time. If you tell a child not to throw food, and he does deliberately...not
because he doesn't know better,...but deliberately, then a spanking would be
necessary.
Please realize (as I hope you do), that I will not look for opportunities to
spank my children.
Now, I know I'm in the minority among those who are participating in this thread.
So, I'll just assume that 90% of the people who want to respond to this will do
so with opposing opinions. So, respond if you like and I will read it...but I'll
be expecting it.
-Mike
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>David Albert | Illegitimi non carborundum est.
>alb...@das.harvard.edu |
---
David Shackelford
>>Alright, I admit this is a topic that I feel VERY STRONGLY and EMOTIONALLY
>>about, but I do have a serious question for the parents who DO spank,
>>and who have more than one child.
>>
>>If your oldest hits one of his/her younger siblings, what do you do?
I have an unusual (?) suggestion. My rule is no hitting EXCEPT AS
PUNISHMENT.
What if the victim were given the right to retaliate via a spanking.
1) If the victim is physically capabile of smacking the culprit,
help the victim to spank the culprit an amout equivalent to
the original offense. (With appropriate lecture eg "You hit
your sister and hurt her. That wasn't nice. To pay for what
you did she gets to spank you")
2) If the victim is too young, spank the culprit yourself, giving
the same explanation.
It's probably too strange for anyone to go along with it. I haven't
had the chance to try it out yet, but probably will someday.
Dave
Andrea Von Ahnen
The spanking segment was so upsetting to watch! I'd be
surprised if Child Protective Services didn't contact the one
couple who was flat out abusive to their children, those parents
can't be allowed to continue to be so cruel. I looked at their
8 month or so old baby and felt so sorry for him/her that he was
so unfortunate to be born into that family and what he had
coming to him when his parents decide he's old enough to endure
the beatings as his siblings do (he probably is already, as that
story was taped six months ago). Really, really sad.
Andi
Mom to Aaron, Alexander, and triplets due 3/3/93
Karen Prestemon
--Karen
Karen Prestemon
>Aren't we ALL learning here? Isn't that what's really important?
>
Grrrrrrrr!! Someone called while I was typing this, and the call waiting
cut me off, and I swear there's a whole lot more to this than the last
sentence you see here. I'm trying to salvage it! Sorry, people!
Karen Prestemon
>>Until she was actually involved in the child rearing process, Linda could
>>not condone my behavior. I think that Allen is right in stating that Karen
>>has no basis for her arguement that spanking should never be condoned FROM
>>THE POINT OF VIEW THAT KAREN HAS NO CHILDREN. I still think everytime that
>>I spank Gwynne or recall having spanked her that I could have done better
>>but I am not sure of that...
>
> This attitude that anyone who has not given birth can't know about how to
>treat children is pretty pervasive - I have heard it several times in this
>newsgroup. What a crock (excuse my language)! Once in awhile, a friend of
>mine babysits for my two kids. She doesn't have any herself, but she and her
>husband are considering kids. I let her babysit for a short while and then
>my husband and I laugh because she tells us that she didn't have time to do
>the dishes, didn't have time to read an article I gave her, didn't put the
>leftovers in the refrigerator, etc., because she was too EXHAUSTED!
> We laugh about it. We would NEVER tolerate her using physical force on
>our kids because the work is exhausting. And we wouldn't want her to strike
>a child just because it was our child (=property); WE DON'T DO IT and we don't
>think it is right for anyone else to do 'because taking care of kids is such
>a tough job...'
>
At 22, I am lacking a great many things required to raise children,
including MATURITY!! I readily admit it. However, to invalidate
my argument by pointing this out is wrong. I do not have to commit
murder to know that murder is wrong. I may come close with kids someday,
(that was a joke! :) but I still know it is wrong.
OK, I've talked about my brother, etc. I've also had a number of discussions
with other friends about spanking, my age of course, and based on the
experiences of others, I can still draw the same conclusions. I also just
recently had a discussion about spanking with my parents, and they
agree that spanking us was the wrong way to go. They didn't come
to this conclusion after I sat and argued with them, as I have tried
with Allen, here. Instead, as soon as the topic came up, they jumped
on the "no spanking" bandwagon. And they have been parents for nearly
23 years. I think I trust them on this one--we brought our two
experiences as spanker and spankee together, and still reached the
same conclusions. It was a great feeling!
One more thing (AND PLEASE, DON'T LAUGH AT ME!!). My husband and I have
a kitten. She is four+ months old. Although cats ARE NOT children,
we are still learning a lot from this experience. We know that it
there is a constant frustration in having to say "no" this and "no"
that all the live long day. There are some moments when I find myself
thinking that if I have to yell at the cat one more time, I am going
to blow! My cat-owning friends keep saying to smack her when she
misbehaves. Well, we have tried, and we can tell that she does things
to rebel against us. If an animal that operates almost totally
on the instincts "eat", "sleep", and "run" will defy us for giving her
a little pat on her butt to get her attention, I can only imagine what
it will be like to have a thinking, reasoning four-year-old child.
The one drawback to the cat is that she can't speak English.
I read this group because I want to be armed with as much knowledge
as possible when I become a parent. I could read books until I'm
blue in the face, but listening to your experiences is off much
greater value in my mind. I see the cat as a learning
experience too, because here is a living, breathing being who depends
entirely on me to feed her and take care of her. High school
students carry around eggs and sacks of flour and it is considered
a highly effective tool to teach them that babies require responsibility.
Parenting is a learned experience that only comes one step at a
time, just like everything else. The kitten has us starting small.
Sure, we already say things like, "We'll never do THAT when WE'RE
parents!" And of course, we'll find some of our theories
disproved. I don't want to spank, and enough people have posted
about their happy, well-behaved kids who have NEVER been spanked,
that I know it can be done. AND, I'd also like to add that a
couple of you spankers have already posted saying that you are
thinking twice now before giving a smack. You can't see me, but
I am cheering!
Aren't we ALL learning here? Isn't that what's really important?
--Karen
David Shackelford
>
>I feel the need to respond to this because my viewpoint is
>diametrically opposed. I happen to believe that between the ages of
>~3 and ~10, the only thing that matters in most cases (certainly in
>any case in which you and the children are at home and in private and
>there is no immediate threat to life) is _why_ the child is behaving
>improperly, not that she is.
>
But disobediance might imply a threat to life. If I catch a 7 YO
playing with matches, he's going to get spanked. If I catch him
doing it again, he'll get spanked harder. Absolutely no playing
with matches will be tolerated. If spanking doesn't work, I'll
go through everything I can think of, and get help if nothing
works.
The result in this situation is all that matters to me. If you can
achieve 100% results using another method, go ahead. Just be sure
either it's 100% effective or you have a good insurance policy.
Playing with knives is another example of something
I won't tolerate. I still remember an experience I had when
sitting with three boys ages 10, 8, and 7. I had the mother's
permission to use my judgement and do whatever seemed necessary.
The 8 YO found a knife and was slashing at his brothers and me.
I took the knife away and spanked him. When I told his mother
what happened, she spanked him again. As far as I know, he has
no irrational fear of knives, no wish to kill people, and is
generally well adjusted. I consider the event a success --
nobody was injured (sure, his bottom was red for a couple of
hours, but it wasn't life-threatening) and he got the message.
David Shackelford
>
>>I agree that spanking will be a PART of our parenting. The best rule of thumb
>>that I have heard was this: Spanking should only be done when the child
>>deliberately disobeys and/or defies your authority. This implies that the
>>child is old enough to do so. So, I agree with Alan.
>
>I trusted and loved my parents and wanted to please them. For that reason,
>I mostly did what they wanted. If they asked me to do something, they
>knew they could count on me to do it unless I had a good reason. In the few
>cases that I decided (for what seemed to me good and sound reasons) to
>"defy their authority", the result was that they stopped and thought: "If
>he won't do what I'm asking, there must be some good reason, or at least some
>reason that seems good to him".
>
What if it's something dangerous like playing with matches or throwing
knives etc. Is ANY reason for your child doing these things sufficient
to make you let him do them? As for me, these are some things that
I will not tolerate.
David Shackelford
Huh? I don't see what your comments have to do with the
referenced article.
Dave
Terri Macko
I remember when I was growing up, the times I hit my sister was when she
annoyed me to the point where I lost control because I didn't know how
to get her to stop her behavior. The only choice I had in my repertoire
was to hit. I always felt misjudged by my parents, if they would only
correct my behavior, instead of both our behaviors, and I vowed never to
be that kind of parent when I grew up. So here's what I do:
First off, let me confess that I'm not a parent myself, but I'm an "aunt"
to my friend's 3 boys, Scott (8yrs.), Steve (4.9yrs.) and James(17mo.).
Anyway, I recognize that whenever one of the older boys is having a problem
with a younger brother, he's attempting to control a situation to the best
of his abilities. In fact, both boys are doing something positive for
themselves, relative to their capabilities and age levels.
The first thing I do is to stop the "bad" behavior. I usually have my
face show anger and loudly ask "What's going on here?" I do this to get
their attention on me and off of each other. If needed, I'll grab whoever's
being abusive at the moment and restrict their movement. I try not to have
to do this, because I find they just get angrier and then I have to spend
time defusing that anger (at me).
Next, I get the older boy to tell me what the younger boy was doing.
(Sometimes it's the other way around.) I change my demeaner to a calm
and understanding tone and I try to find out what the older boy was trying
to control. Then I agree with him and say something like: "Yes, getting
your turn is important." or "Yes, protecting your toy is a good thing to
do." I let him know that I understand his position.
Finally, I offer him an alternative behavior, another way of preventing
the situation in the first place, or just "well next time, come get me
and I'll take care of it". I always try to get him to offer his own
idea of what he could do next time a like situation happens. Then I
praise him for being so smart or clever, no matter what idea he came up
with. I try to give him a mental reward now, so that in the future he
will remember the "good" behavior instead of the "bad". Sometimes this
learning is slow because kids tend to want the outcome NOW!, but by
patience and repetition, they will internalize the new behavior into
their repertoire.
This method has worked great with these boys. Scott learned at age 4 how
to cope with Steve, and Steve is great with James. The boy's parents
basically have also used this method, so it's not just mine. Sometimes
Scott and Steve will have a squabble in another room and their dad will
shout: "figure it out". It amazes me how often they do!
-Terri
--
Terri Macko, Motorola Cellular 1501 W. Shure Drive, IL27-2237
ma...@orange.rtsg.mot.com Arlington Heights, IL 60004-1497
These are my thoughts, not Motorola's. (They normally take
two years to catch on.)
Diane Lin
[...]>
>* After age XX (5?,6?, 7? who knows, depends on the child) spanking is not
> effective, nor is it probably the best form of punishment...
So why is it effective before age XX?
>* Reasoning with young children isn't going to have the desired affect all the
> time. If you tell a child not to throw food, and he does deliberately...not
> because he doesn't know better,...but deliberately, then a spanking would be
> necessary.
A spanking is "necessary" when a child throws food deliberately? Oh
please, say it ain't so! I've been doing it all wrong, then! :-0
When our son threw food (he no longer does it), we would simply
remind him that we eat food (positive action), we don't throw it.
We would also warn him that throwing food would signal to us that he
was done eating. So, if he threw the food again, we would clean him
up and get him out of his chair. A few times with this method got
the point across to him, and it works with other undesirable
behaviors as well. Logical consequences are great, IMHO. Also,
once our son was old enough to help clean up messes, a natural
consequence of throwing food or making other messes, would be to
help clean it up.
It certainly sounds like spanking is used as punishment for a whole
range of misbehaviors. If that is the case, then how does a child
distinguish one type of transgression from another? By the
severity of the spanking? Does lying get you 10 hits but throwing
your food only rates 3 hits? Exactly how do you teach your child
that different behaviors result in different consequences?
>So, I'll just assume that 90% of the people who want to respond to this will do
>so with opposing opinions. So, respond if you like and I will read it...but
>I'll be expecting it.
>
It might help the non-spankers among us understand the rationale
behind spanking if you could give an indication of cases of behavior
or misbehavior that clearly cannot be handled without spanking. And
it would *really* help me if you could make your argument stand on
its own, without any appeal to religious beliefs. Thanks in
advance.
--
Diane C. Lin "Live now; make *now* always the
dl...@weber.ucsd.edu most precious time. Now will
(Dylan's mom, 23 months) never come again." (ST:TNG)
Angus H Rodgers
sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>In article <1992Nov3.1...@das.harvard.edu>
alb...@endor.uucp (David Albert) writes:
>But disobediance might imply a threat to life. If I catch a 7 YO
>playing with matches, he's going to get spanked. If I catch him
>doing it again, he'll get spanked harder. Absolutely no playing
>with matches will be tolerated. If spanking doesn't work, I'll
>go through everything I can think of, and get help if nothing
>works.
>The result in this situation is all that matters to me. If you can
>achieve 100% results using another method, go ahead. Just be sure
>either it's 100% effective or you have a good insurance policy.
As you seem to be genuinely concerned with getting results, for the
sake of the child's safety, presumably you have investigated the
effectiveness of spanking as a deterrent? Presumably, also, you have
considered the possible harmful effects of the spanking itself?
But these must remain mere presumptions, because you haven't
actually said what your reasons are for adopting this practice,
in preference to other available techniques (or sheer abstinence).
This is in contrast to several of the anti-spanking contributors,
and it weakens your case.
(Apologies if I've missed something you wrote.)
--
Angus H. Rodgers (PhD student), | arod...@dcs.qmw.ac.uk
Dept. of Computer Science, Queen | [ +44 | 0 ] 71 975 5241
Mary & Westfield College, Mile | "But what is contact? No two points
End Rd., London E1 4NS, England | are in contact." -- A.N. Whitehead.
Eric Lee Green
> I know from experience (both giving and receiving) that it works,
> and it doesn't necessarily ruin you for life. For some kids
> it doesn't work as well as other methods, for some kids it works
> much better. Do whatever you feel is right, and works for your
> kids -- please make sure they're not brats.
Given that the "experts" are divided about the usefulness of spanking...
Spanking is one of a broad group of obediance training methods called "pain
compliance methods." These were once widely used in American institutions
prior to the 1950's, when concern arose that perhaps inflicting pain was
not a particularly humane thing to do. That was when exclusionary methods
began to come into vogue. Exclusionary methods rely upon having a
reinforcement-rich environment which is earned by the child for good
behavior. Bad behavior means exclusion from reinforcement for a period of
time. "Timeout" is a particular exclusionary method which has become
popular over the past twenty years. Some people claim that timeout doesn't
work with "difficult" children. It does -- it just requires a lot of
patience, a willingness to wait the child out, and the ability to withdraw
all priviliges and reinforcement during the period that you're waiting for
the kid to comply with timeout procedures. I've used it with street kids in
my classroom, and it does seem to work, though I've had to keep a kid in
the timeout area for over an hour before he came to the realization that I
was just going to sit there until he politely asked me to turn on his
timer (I turn off the timer and reset it whenever a child misbehaves in
timeout, and don't turn it back on until they comply with timeout rules and
politely ask for it to be turned back on).
The most important thing to keep in mind about timeout is that you must do
it with a minimum of emotion and few words. Tell the kid what he needs to
do in order to get the timer going, lock away the Nintendo if necessary,
and then wait. If a kid tells me "I'm not going," I just shrug and list the
choices and consequences -- then follow through with whatever choice he
makes. No go, no priviliges. No big deal. The reason the "no big deal" part
is important is because if I make a big deal of it, the situation escalates
-- I'm reinforcing arguing, so I get argument. Shrugging and saying "Well,
let me know when you're ready to put your timer on" has worked much better
-- reducing one kid to the point of tears from frustration, even. Without a
single bit of physical pain being inflicted.
If I can do this with "street kids" in a public school classroom... kids
who are put into my classroom because no regular teacher on campus can deal
with them... and then have regular teachers make positive comments about
the behavior of my children...
then surely parents can do the very same with their very own children, hmm?
No matter how "difficult"?
It all depends, I guess, on whether you like inflicting pain or not. I
don't like inflicting pain. So I don't do it. (Not that I could legally do
it anyhow, in my position, but there are teachers who do it anyhow, legal
or no).
--
Eric Lee Green e...@elgamy.taronga.com Dodson Elementary
(713) 664-6446 Houston, TX
"Kids are kids, no matter what"
Andy Lowry
Please don't! This doesn't sound strange, it sounds stupid and
irresponsible.
This is not the way our society works, at least the more civilized
parts of it. If somebody attacks me and leaves me unconscious in the
street, I do not, once I've recovered, go seek him out with some of my
larger friends and beat him to a bloody pulp (I know that's how parts
of our society work, but it's not the way our laws say it should work,
and it's not the way I want it to work). I have legal options
available to me, none of which is based on the eye-for-an-eye
mentality.
There are good reasons why we don't do this in society. For one
thing, there's the idea that we, as a society, consider certain types
of behavior as fundamentally wrong. Physical assault is one of them.
We (again, as a society) tolerate these behaviors in very limited
circumstances, such as physical assault for purposes of self defense.
Physical assault for retaliation is *not* tolerated. To do so would
be to lower our moral standards regarding physical assault. Some
members of our society would probably like that, but most would not,
so it ends up being disallowed.
For another thing, adding retaliation to the list of reasons for
tolerating otherwise disallowed behavior will make it that much harder
to administer justice properly. How easy would it be to disprove
somebody's claim that their crime was a just retaliation for some
wrong that their victim had earlier commited toward them? Very
difficult indeed. Does an insult to one's mother warrant a punch in
the stomach? Should I walk into your house and relieve you of your
expensive sound system in exchange for the $1000 in damages to my car
that you smashed into? It's completely unworkable.
So given that this is not how society works (and even if you're among
the minority who think it *should* work this way), isn't one goal of
parenting to prepare our children for participation in this society?
How does this absurd disciplining scheme do that? It does just the
opposite. And I can't begin to unravel what it's supposed to teach
about the morality of hitting... I don't know how you expect young
children to get it.
Andy Lowry
> >I feel the need to respond to this because my viewpoint is
> >diametrically opposed. I happen to believe that between the ages
> >of ~3 and ~10, the only thing that matters in most cases
> >(certainly in any case in which you and the children are at home
> >and in private and there is no immediate threat to life) is _why_
> >the child is behaving improperly, not that she is.
>
> But disobediance might imply a threat to life. If I catch a 7 YO
> playing with matches, he's going to get spanked. If I catch him
> doing it again, he'll get spanked harder. Absolutely no playing
> with matches will be tolerated. If spanking doesn't work, I'll go
> through everything I can think of, and get help if nothing works.
>
> The result in this situation is all that matters to me. If you can
> achieve 100% results using another method, go ahead. Just be sure
> either it's 100% effective or you have a good insurance policy.
You're implying that spanking in these situations is 100% successful.
Disciplining a child for something they did can send a number of
messages, among them:
- What I did was wrong, and I shouldn't ever do it again.
- What I did made Daddy or Mommy so mad they spanked me, so I
shouldn't ever get caught doing it again.
Obviously, the former is what we hope for. I can certainly conceive
of spanking instilling this message in some children in some
circumstances. But I can also very easily see it instilling the
second message. The reason is that the punishment had no logical
tie-in with the offense. If you can find a way to demonstrate the
potential harmfulness of what they did, that's one way to instill the
first message. Sometimes that's not practical, especially right on
the spot (e.g. maybe at some point you'll have the opportunity to show
your child a burning building as the fire department is fighting it,
and talk about how awful it must be to have your home and belongings
go up in smoke, and then relate it all back to matches; but it's not
likely to be an option immediately). In those situations you can at
least explain to the child why the behavior was wrong and then use
something like time-out that will at least encourage them to think
about what they did and about what you said to them. After all,
they'll have to think about *something* during that quiet time since
there won't be anything to distract them (assuming you've implemented
time-outs effectively).
If my goal in administering punishment is to make the child understand
that the behavior was wrong, then I honestly can't see any
justification for spanking, since it just seems so obviously
ineffective. Arguments about "life threatening" situations do nothing
to change that, though they have at times made me doublecheck my
reasoning, simply because they sound so alarming. Throw away the
shock value, and I don't see any persuasive argument at all.
cobar...@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov
writes:
>In article <24...@optima.cs.arizona.edu> sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David
Shackelford) writes:
>[stuff deleted here]
>>
>>and it doesn't necessarily ruin you for life. For some kids
>>it doesn't work as well as other methods, for some kids it works
>>much better. Do whatever you feel is right, and works for your
>>kids -- please make sure they're not brats.
>
>
>mind, and don't realize I'm in misc.kids, not alt.flame.
>
>This person (man, I think) is absolutely nuts, a wacko. He's not
>the sharpest tool in the shed. His elevator doesn't go to the top
>floor. Two bricks short of a load. Not enough furniture in the
>attic.
>
discipline. I cant understand why someone would not take the time to learn
other forms of child development instead of hitting, even when the alternatives
achieves the same goals! Hopefully he/she doesnt have kids yet.
>Liz Jones
cobar...@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov
bh43...@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan) writes:
>In article <1992Nov3.2...@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>,
cobar...@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
>
>|> My daughter is 2.5 years old and we havent spanked her, but there
>|> are I sure harder times ahead.
>|> I hope I can continue this AND instill obedience, love, and family values.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Arrrghhhh !!!!!
>family values, what's that ??
>I have been strongly influenced by Quayle's convention speech.
>
>NOT!!!!
I dont think Quayle knew how to spell family values. Maybe he can take a course
since he will have some spare time on his hands. :-)
mark.d.wuest
>In article <25...@optima.cs.arizona.edu> sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
> > I have an unusual (?) suggestion. My rule is no hitting EXCEPT AS
> > PUNISHMENT.
> >
> > What if the victim were given the right to retaliate via a spanking.
>irresponsible.
I wasn't sure how to respond to this myself. ;-)
I imagine David is sitting there embarrassed, wondering why he sent that
post without re-reading it.
A famous man (Jesus) once started a sentence with, "You have heard that
it was said, 'eye for eye, and tooth for tooth,' but...". It is probably
worth looking in a copy of a Bible to see what he said after "but".
An author (Calvin Miller) said something to the effect that if we truly
lived by "eye for eye", none of us would have any eyes or teeth!
I sure don't want to teach my children that vengeance is good, or that
discipline = vengeance.
Mark
--
Mark Wuest | *MY* opinions, not AT&T's!!
mark....@att.com |
m...@cheshire.att.com (NeXT Mail) |
mark.d.wuest
>> ANYWAY - we have been observing and questioning the parents of
>> children that we want OUR kids to be like (happy, secure - yea, I
>> know we're dreaming ;-)). In every case where we KNOW whether or
>> not they spank, they DO - in very, very limited situations.
>
>I'd be interested to hear what you would find if you asked the parents
>of kids you *don't* want your kids to be like.
Well, some do and some don't. I sincerely believe a lot of people
who are avidly against spanking at any time are over-reacting. Kind
of like reading about a plane crash and refusing to fly. I will say
this (remember, this is just IMHO): *Most* people who spank do so in
anger and damage trust and self-esteem. So who am I to think I won't?
I don't know. I'll just pray and read and get help from people I
respect. BUT - most people who discipline in ANY way do so in anger
and damage trust and self-esteem! Not all. Most.
>I think it's clear that it's possible to include spanking as a small
>part of a sound and effective program of discipline. But from what
>I've seen it's also possible, and not even very difficult, to develop
>a sound and effective program of discpline *without* spanking. If
>this is true and all other factors were equal, I don't think anybody
>would disagree that spanking is cruel and unacceptable.
I think it is possible with some kids, not possible with others. We
have kept other peoples' children for several days several times. We
have never spanked them. (To be honest with you, we never would, even
if the parents asked us to, but this has little to do with my beliefs
about spanking in general and everything to do with my beliefs about
spanking someone else's child.) They always responded to other forms.
When 2.5 YO Jessica re-arranged all of my CD's, I sat on the floor by
her, told her she wasn't to play with them, and got her to say, "I
won't play with these." She's left them alone since, happy to play
with her toys.
OTOH, we teach classes at church occasionally. Our policy for
disruptive children is a warning, a timeout, and then they need
to leave the classroom and sit with their parent(s). For the kids
whose parents do not spank at all, this is ineffective (except that
it gets the class back under control with them gone ;-). The same
kids end up going out every 5 weeks or so. The one kid we had to
send out whose parents *do* spank (admittedly very rarely), only
needed it once, and I'll also admit he did not get spanked for
this instance.
A funny sidelight - the kids love us and get excited when we teach
their classes (we kinda like them too ;-), though we are probably
among the strictest teachers there. I *hated* strict teachers when
I was kid.
Kathy Wilk
al...@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
>> K. Wilk writes:
>
>> You probably don't know how your kids feel about your method of discipline.
>>When they are older and you do find out, remember your humble wish that your
>>kids will love you anyway. My experience has been that kids have a terribly
>>tight bond to parents and WANT to love them and will love them. It's a shame
>>that parents test that bond, indulging themselves by spanking the kids. It
>>is surprising that parents are shocked when kids tell them they are bitter or
>>resentful about having been spanked when they were young. Aren't parents to
>>be responsible for their actions?
>
>In all honesty, most parents are not trying to test the bond. We're merely
>trying to wade through a sea of right's and wrong's to figure out how best to
>
Whether I am a parent or not, it is easy to see that this is a difficult
issue.
And if we are going to defend phrases, I never said that parents are
consciously trying to test the bond. But I think they DO test the bond
by assuming the right to hit, the 'protection of parenthood' that they
can hit a kid if it is their kid (whacking someone else's is out of the
question, of course!) If I WANT to whack my kid, I can come up with lots
of rationalizations (wading through a sea of rights and wrongs) and tell you
that I am doing right.
>> I have written about my active two-year-old and what he has done to try
>>my patience. I have 2 kids close in age which is a very stressful spacing
>>right now. Yesterday, I was amazed to hear his day-care-provider compliment
>>him because he gets toys to play with and PUTS them away. Wow! Being a
>>teacher in a Montessori school, she concentrates a lot on being gentle,
>>reinforcing good behavior a lot, persistently stressing how to keep the
>>play area in order, and keeping calm. In a room full of toddlers who
>>have 'ants in their pants' a lot of the time, she and the other 2 teachers
>>have only had to put a child in a time-out chair once, for agressively
>>pushing another child down.
>> Do I think that she just lucked out and has an 'easy' class or an 'easy'
>>job? No, I think she and the other teachers have developed some skills and
>>they stick to the job of discipline without physical force. They do that
>>job day after day. They know that their methods can work if children don't
>>have SERIOUS behavioral problems (my child biting and being bitten is not
>>considered a SERIOUS behavioral problem but if biting persisted, we would
>>all work out a plan of action). I admire the teachers because I know they
>>believe in gentle methods when working with kids!
>and teach the children. They don't have to fold laundry, clean the house,
>go grocery shopping, etc., etc., etc., that my wife and I must do to keep our
>household going. My oldest is in preschool and I've taken a few days off to
>spend the day with him and find it's pretty great. I mean, he's playing with
>play, rest time at a specified time with all the other kids, etc. I'm not
>putting down the teachers because they really do work their collective butts
>off, but the kids get constant, undivided attention either directly from
>teachers or from other kids their own age. Interacting at home with siblings
>and parents is, I contend, quite a bit different.
kids constantly. They have to plan ahead constantly and still keep flexible
while giving children good routines. You and your wife have to do grocery
shopping, laundry, etc.? SO DO THESE TEACHERS! They have homes to go to and
kids and stress just as we do and make a lot less money, (I'm guessing that
you make a lot more money than a day care provider).
I don't know what kind of hours you and your wife work but when my kids are
in daycare, they are there for 8 hours. I see them for almost three hours
before they go to bed. So what is your point - that the day care people get
to see the kids while they are awake and the parents spend more time with
them while they are asleep?
Sure, YOU find it fun to be in day care watching your son. The teacher did
not take off and tell you to do her work. You're a guest in a lively, color-
ful environment; I hope while you are visiting, you look closely: the kids are
being taught to clean up after themselves. The teacher is behind them, gently
prodding (not whacking because she is in a hurry!) and she still has to do the
work that little hands can't do. AND get them dressed to go outside, AND
mediate disputes, and get them geared up to eat lunch and handle their
utensils.
Sure, you say, they work their collective butts off. My point was, they
do work very hard and their work is herding, helping, and teaching, all with-
out smacking - parents should be able to do that, too. Don't try to make
it sound like they don't have stressful jobs because it looked like fun to
you!
About the interaction with other siblings versus the interaction with other
playmates: when the kids are acting up at the end of the day, I call another
mother and say, 'Can you send your kid over to play?' Then my kids have a
playmate to distract them for awhile. And I don't have to do all the work
of a daycare provider - and that is a lot of work and stress - I can send
that child back to her home when it is time for my own family to eat dinner.
This is something I don't think I would have thought of if my kids weren't
in daycare and I didn't see how helpful other kids can be FOR A SHORT TIME.
And while the kids are playing as I make dinner, I don't bother if the place
is getting messy. I don't edit behavior. I just tell them that they have
to clean up one room before they go to another, and I'll pitch in and help
but they have to do some cleanup work.
Angus H Rodgers
lo...@watson.ibm.com (Andy Lowry) writes:
>In article <25...@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
>sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
> > [...]
> > I have an unusual (?) suggestion. My rule is no hitting EXCEPT AS
> > PUNISHMENT.
"Evil is never better done than when it is done with a good conscience."
(Nietzsche)
> > It's probably too strange for anyone to go along with it. I haven't
> > had the chance to try it out yet, but probably will someday.
>Please don't! This doesn't sound strange, it sounds stupid and
>irresponsible.
It sounds stupid and irresponsible, all right, but not at all strange;
rather, it sounds terribly familiar [ = of the family]; in fact,
it sounds just like "normal" practice -- in "this society". (See below.)
>This is not the way our society works, at least the more civilized
>parts of it. If somebody attacks me and leaves me unconscious in the
>street, I do not, once I've recovered, go seek him out with some of my
>larger friends and beat him to a bloody pulp (I know that's how parts
>of our society work, but it's not the way our laws say it should work,
>and it's not the way I want it to work).
But say, we gave that Saddam a bloody nose, didn't we? :-)
>There are good reasons why we don't do this in society. For one
>thing, there's the idea that we, as a society, consider certain types
>of behavior as fundamentally wrong. Physical assault is one of them.
What's (fundamentally!) wrong with this argument is that homosexuality,
marijuana smoking, and (in certain states) teaching evolutionary biology
(am I right? -- no great U.S.A. expert here!) are also things which "we,
as a society, consider ... as fundamentally wrong"; but they just aren't
fundamentally wrong (although they might -- take your pick -- be unwise,
dangerous, mistaken, unusual ... ).
I'm not just carping (as you might think at first). It weakens one's
position, in these arguments, to base it on outright moral relativism,
as you have done. Certain things just *are* fundamentally wrong; and,
IMO, much (not all!) spanking of children comes under this heading.
In case this sounds extreme, may I quote a very sensible statement
from another newsgroup a year or so ago?
-----
Article 1390 of talk.philosophy.misc:
From: ram...@math.harvard.edu (Keith Ramsay)
Newsgroups: alt.sex,sci.philosophy.tech,sci.philosophy.meta,talk.philosophy.misc
Subject: Re: Absolute values
Message-ID: <RAMSAY.91A...@brauer.harvard.edu>
Date: 28 Apr 91 00:32:44 GMT
Sender: ne...@husc6.harvard.edu
Organization: Harvard University Dept. of Mathematics
In article <6R4&V...@cck.cov.ac.uk>, Myrddin writes:
> I too must ask here for an elucidation of the term absolute.When ever I
> come across the term absolute I have often implicit within this the idea
> "that it is something that is beyond question" and eternallly valid.I don't
> there can be room in philosophy for something that can't be questioned.
I think we need to distinguish the question of the absoluteness of a
thing and the issue of how we are to deal with it. Even if it is
absolutely true that the Earth is round, it does not mean that we, in
our process of learning about and coping with reality, should not
doubt this assertion, commensurate with our degree of uncertainty
about it.
I believe in "absolute" morality, in the sense that when asking
questions of right and wrong, I believe the questions to be
meaningful, without necessarily specifying "according moral code X".
The question of how much certainty I can invest in my conclusions
about it is a different story.
It appears to me that I could be much more dogmatic if I were a moral
relativist, for then I could at least assert for sure that something
is wrong "by my moral code", and that could be the end of the inquiry.
As it is, there always remains the possibility that I've made a
mistake, not merely in determining what sort of technology and
methodology is needed to achieve ends which I value, but in my values
themselves.
--
Keith Ramsay
ram...@zariski.harvard.edu
-----
My point (sorry about the length of this message) is that spankers
will often feel that they have Absolute Right on their side (we
don't have to look far for examples!); and it only reinforces this
moralistic attitude, if their opponents resort to quoting the
norms of "this society" -- which can all-too-easily be demonised
as "Political Correctness" -- so that we then get the kind of response
from the spanking addict which goes, "Well, it may not be
*Politically Correct*, but I spank my children, so that they learn
something about right and wrong, and ... and ... values, and stuff
like that".
Of course, what these children "learn" is either (a) "might is right",
or (b) "I am always wrong"/"I have no value". (I was one of the latter;
and I have had a very hard struggle indeed to unlearn the lessons that
were beaten into me in childhod; and I doubt if I will ever succeed
very completely in this.)
>We (again, as a society) tolerate these behaviors in very limited
>circumstances, such as physical assault for purposes of self defense.
>Physical assault for retaliation is *not* tolerated.
Except by governments, when it is mandatory, and resistance to it is
despised (oh, and I forgot, retaliation is then called "defense", or
in another context, "law and order").
>To do so would
>be to lower our moral standards regarding physical assault. Some
>members of our society would probably like that, but most would not,
>so it ends up being disallowed.
So it's all just a matter of statistical facts? What happens, then,
when most citizens of a country support a Fascist regime? Does it
then become wrong to oppose it?
(Basically, I agree with you! -- It's just your arguments which
are wrong, not the conclusions.)
>So given that this is not how society works (and even if you're among
>the minority who think it *should* work this way), isn't one goal of
>parenting to prepare our children for participation in this society?
>How does this absurd disciplining scheme do that?
Very well indeed, unfortunately! :-)
>And I can't begin to unravel what it's supposed to teach
>about the morality of hitting... I don't know how you expect young
>children to get it.
Oh, just let them listen to a few politicians for a while, and
they'll soon get the hang of it. :-)
[Sits back and waits to be consumed by flames.]
Kathy Wilk
>knives etc. Is ANY reason for your child doing these things sufficient
>to make you let him do them? As for me, these are some things that
>I will not tolerate.
behavior without spanking him?'
There are people who assume you can't and they go to spanking first.
For minor OR major (matches, knives) infractions.
There are people who say you can talk a lot about the small things but
when a kid does something seriously wrong, get out the big guns (whack!)
If you believe you can establish a rapport with a child and he can learn
through means other than physical force, you won't spend much time construc-
ting the rationalizations of either of the above groups.
Hunting for reasons to spank (well, what if... or how about if... well,
surely if...) won't be a mental activity.
Judy E. Drake
Allan Warren wrote:
>>story: your brother, the drug addict. You can say anything you want
>>in this group, but I find your criticisms rather empty since you have
>>done no research in child psychology and you have no experience in
>>raising children.
Kristan Geissel wrote:
>Until she was actually involved in the child rearing process, Linda could
>not condone my behavior. I think that Allen is right in stating that Karen
>has no basis for her arguement that spanking should never be condoned FROM
>THE POINT OF VIEW THAT KAREN HAS NO CHILDREN.
What is with this crap that you have to be raising kids to have a
legitimate understanding about spanking them???? So what if Karen
has no children? Karen obviously knows how civilized people treat
each other, and that is they DON'T hit each other. What makes
kids different that it's OK to hit them under particular circumstances?
What makes Karen's experiences as a child any less relevant to this
issue than Allen's and Kristan's experiences as a parent??
Before I had kids, I couldn't think of a single good reason why I
should hit someone (other than in self defense, but that's another
thread, isn't it?), children included. After I had kids, that opinion
didn't change. Was it invalid before I became a mother, and now only
validated by the presence of my kids? I don't think so.
Like Allen, I also have a 3 1/2-year-old son, but unlike Allen's son,
mine has never been spanked. Not that I haven't had the urge to once
in a while, but I just don't. I don't hit my husband either. He doesn't
hit me or the kids either. That's just how we feel people should be
treated, no matter how old they are.
There are NO circumstances in which I have felt it was appropriate to
hit my son. Sure, there have been times he has been out of control,
a few times when he has misbehaved deliberately, other times when he
has done potentially dangerous things, etc., but I have found
I can communicate with him effectively using a certain tone of voice, or
by removing him from the situation he's in and waiting for him to calm
down. I can't think of any time when hitting him would have ever made
anything better. He's a very well-behaved little boy, but I don't think
he's out of the ordinary. He doesn't go around running into streets and
putting his fingers in light sockets either.
Someone in this thread said that time-outs won't work forever. Why ever
not? I was raised to be a normal, responsible adult without being
spanked by my parents (timeouts only, although they weren't called that
at the time), and I plan to do the same with my kids. My parents didn't
spank, and I have always appreciated how enlightened and effective their
parenting methods were, especially now that I am a parent.
Someone else in this thread said you can't treat kids as you treat
adults. Why not? I treat my kids as my equals, which they are. I am
no better and no smarter than they are just because I'm bigger. I do
have more experience in life than they do, and I see my role as guiding
them through childhood and into adulthood gently and humanely.
I think a salient point was brought up in the 20/20 episode when the
abusive family claimed that they tried not spanking and it "didn't
work." The psychologist pointed out that spanking the kids didn't work
either, since they had to do it constantly.
The bottom line _for_me_ is that spanking is never necessary or justified,
and in some cases, as Karen pointed out, can be very damaging.
Judy Drake
Allen Warren
>>only see children during daytime hours and their (teachers) role is to watch
>>and teach the children. They don't have to fold laundry, clean the house,
>>go grocery shopping, etc., etc., etc., that my wife and I must do to keep our
>>household going. My oldest is in preschool and I've taken a few days off to
>>spend the day with him and find it's pretty great. I mean, he's playing with
>>to wear while he's painting, bikes to ride on impulse, all sorts of games to
>>play, rest time at a specified time with all the other kids, etc. I'm not
>>putting down the teachers because they really do work their collective butts
>>off, but the kids get constant, undivided attention either directly from
>>teachers or from other kids their own age. Interacting at home with siblings
>>and parents is, I contend, quite a bit different.
>
> Well, here we disagree in a BIG way. The teachers have to clean up after the
>kids constantly. They have to plan ahead constantly and still keep flexible
>while giving children good routines. You and your wife have to do grocery
>shopping, laundry, etc.? SO DO THESE TEACHERS! They have homes to go to and
>kids and stress just as we do and make a lot less money, (I'm guessing that
>you make a lot more money than a day care provider).
Guess I didn't explain myself very well on this one. I meant to say that we
(okay, I'll just speak for myself here and not generalize for those I don't
know about) have to grocery shop, clean house, etc. during daylight hours while
also stimulating the kids and make sure both child and household are taken care
of. I do not in any way demean preschool instructors.
> I don't know what kind of hours you and your wife work but when my kids are
>in daycare, they are there for 8 hours. I see them for almost three hours
>before they go to bed. So what is your point - that the day care people get
>to see the kids while they are awake and the parents spend more time with
>them while they are asleep?
Lighten up, Kathy. My oldest is in daycare only on Tuesday's and Thursday's,
so in my case, my oldest is in daycare for about 10-16 hours a week.
> Sure, YOU find it fun to be in day care watching your son. The teacher did
>not take off and tell you to do her work. You're a guest in a lively, color-
>ful environment; I hope while you are visiting, you look closely: the kids are
>being taught to clean up after themselves. The teacher is behind them, gently
>prodding (not whacking because she is in a hurry!) and she still has to do the
>work that little hands can't do. AND get them dressed to go outside, AND
>mediate disputes, and get them geared up to eat lunch and handle their
>utensils.
> Sure, you say, they work their collective butts off. My point was, they
>do work very hard and their work is herding, helping, and teaching, all with-
>out smacking - parents should be able to do that, too. Don't try to make
>it sound like they don't have stressful jobs because it looked like fun to
>you!
DAMNIT KATHY, I NEVER SAID THAT!! If I made that impression, then I'm terribly
sorry.
Sigh . . .
My original posting to this discussion talked of how I spanked my oldest.
Since then I've posted much in the way of how I've revisited how I am
dealing with child-raising and my new efforts into not spanking, etc.
I thought I was discussing issues in an enlightened environment so as
to learn by interacting and sharing my thoughts (troubled and good) with
others. I've gotten some wonderful email from a few people and will
continue speaking with them offline, but I think that my posting on this
particular issue in this group will end. I just don't see any further
dialogue which is constructive between us, Kathy. I feel like I'm
answering to attacks from you and I don't need to do this anymore in the
best interests of this group.
allen
Elise Wade
>In article <1992Nov3.1...@sequent.com> new...@sequent.com (Donald Newell) writes:
>>In article <17...@wtcp.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> ple...@wtcp.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Paulette Leeper) writes:
[... deleted for brevity ...]
> do whatever they wanted. Spanking puts an adversarial relationship
> between parents and children. My son is very cooperative and not
> defiant at all. He doesn't need to test our limits because we
> don't have any limits. Besides if he's defiant, like fighting
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> diaper changes, it's just his little way of asserting himself.
> I don't feel like I should be in power just because I'm the parent.
> Too many parents think the biggest crime is "being defiant" and
> they are upset not at what the kid did, but "how dare they defy
> me." Like they're some God or something.
I kind of doubt that you really don't have any limits. For instance,
what if your son wants to play with the stove/oven? Suppose he insists
on this behavior no matter what you say to him. Is that going
to be "just his little way of asserting himself"? I suppose if he gets
burned (or blows up the house in the case a gas stove) its ok
since you wouldn't want to be "God or something".
Really, the no-limits idea is pretty half-baked. I think what you
mean is that you haven't given any thought to what your limits are
or should be. That makes it hard for your son to understand what
his limits should be too. Fortunately, you are blessed with a
child who has a cooperative and sensitive personality. But, even
so, I suspect your attitude dosen't do the child any true favor.
Why is the idea of limit-testing negative? Children are always
doing this. Even infants are constantly trying to do things they
can't quite yet -- like sit, crawl, or stand. Its a generally
positive response to the world. As a parent, you have the
responsibility to be sure this positive tendency doesn't corrupt
into something distructive. Just because you aren't always right
and because the responsibility is large, is no reason to shirk
your repsonsibility to set limits as a parent.
Elise.
Diane Lin
>But disobediance might imply a threat to life. If I catch a 7 YO
>playing with matches, he's going to get spanked. If I catch him
>doing it again, he'll get spanked harder. Absolutely no playing
>with matches will be tolerated. If spanking doesn't work, I'll
>go through everything I can think of, and get help if nothing
>works.
>
>The result in this situation is all that matters to me. If you can
>achieve 100% results using another method, go ahead. Just be sure
>either it's 100% effective or you have a good insurance policy.
>
>Playing with knives is another example of something
>I won't tolerate.
[...]
Another of the old "ends justifies the means" logic at work. Did it
ever occur to you that matches and knives and other dangerous
objects should not be within a child's access? That's what
childproofing is all about, you know. As a parent (just for the
heck of it, David, are you a parent?) one of my jobs is to create a
safe environment for my child, and included in that is removing
unsafe items from his reach. Of course, as children age, you can
then explain why certain objects are dangerous and not to be used as
toys. Spanking a child for playing with matches will not instill in
him a healthy respect for the danger inherent in that action, IMHO.
Rather, it might even heighten his curiosity about the object.
Kathy Wilk
m...@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest) writes:
>OTOH, we teach classes at church occasionally. Our policy for
>disruptive children is a warning, a timeout, and then they need
>to leave the classroom and sit with their parent(s). For the kids
>whose parents do not spank at all, this is ineffective (except that
>it gets the class back under control with them gone ;-). The same
>kids end up going out every 5 weeks or so. The one kid we had to
>send out whose parents *do* spank (admittedly very rarely), only
>needed it once, and I'll also admit he did not get spanked for
>this instance.
those of parents who don't (in your experience), gives spanking greater
value than it deserves, in my opinion.
You are careful to say that the kids you are talking about (whom you
teach in Sunday School) really like you. To me, you are jumping ahead to
ward off the obvious conclusion I draw - that kids who are spanked may feel
that if they misbehave, they may be spanked (even by another adult). They
toe the line with you in the Sunday School setting - do you think that means
that they may believe, in their childish little hearts, that if they do some-
thing wrong, you might either spank them or tell their parents who WILL? Any-
way you slice it, fear is the operative word here. They can still have fun and
enjoy your Sunday School class, even if the motivation to obey you is fear of
physical punishment.
And the kids who aren't spanked - you say that they might get a timeout
every 5 weeks? Around my house, a kid may get a timeout 5 times a day and then
I really wonder what's going on because that is a day of misbehaving a lot!
My neighbor's child told me the other day that her mother made her eat black
pepper because she stuck her tongue out at her mother at the dinner table. I
don't know if her parents spank her but I don't plan to ask. What is true
from my observation of this little girl (who is 4) is that she is quick to run
to me and tell me that she didn't do anything wrong (before I even have an
inkling that milk has spilled or something was knocked over). Maybe she didn't
do anything wrong - what impresses me is that she is so constantly on guard,
even a little TOO well behaved (I want to tell her to relax sometimes!)
There's not much difference between the damage done by her or my daughter
when they are playing. And I prefer a more relaxed kid (and yes, I think my
daughter has less fear and is just as happy).
Valerie Noronha
My mother raised six kids with very little spanking. I think I can remember
just one spanking from her, though my father occasionally used a belt.
My mother's argument against physical punishment is that with her first, he
was misbehaving in the bathtub when she slapped him. This caused him to loose
his balance and hit his head against the water knob. She was so frightened
that she may have caused real harm to her child that she resolved that the
risks weren't worth it as a method of disipline. After that, her usual
method was to use timeouts in a corner chair.
This story really scares me. Anytime we react violently, there is the
potential that real harm my be done. This is a risk that I would not be
prepared to take.
Valerie
Kathleen Riggle
Good lord, I don't tolerate Rachel playing with knives or matches
either. Also, she isn't allowed to dance around in the bathtub, jump
on our bed, run out into the street, throw food at us during dinner,
play with my sewing supplies or tear up my books. She seems to cope
rather well with these rules without me having to spank her.
Not tolerating doesn't equate to spanking. I've learned other methods
to help her learn our rules and she actually does learn the rules and
obey us. It takes time, but it works.
If I catch her with something dangerous, the tone in my voice changes
enough for her to know something is really wrong and she will almost
always hand over the offending item (sewing shears come to mind). If
she doesn't hand the item over pronto, I take it away from her. I try
not to take things away from her; I think that's almost as bad as
spanking, but if it is a dangerous item, I will. If it's something
else (like the diaper I want to put on her) I reason with her and give
her a choice. For other things that aren't quite as life-threatening
(jumping on our bed) she's given options and I immediately remove her
from our room if she jumps. She knows that and hates it, so she
complies.
She hasn't tested the running in the street rule. I always hold her
hand when we are near a street, so it's not a problem. When I'm
dealing with getting into the car in a parking lot, I position her in
front of me and tell her to be careful, there are cars. She always
says, "Don't want to get squished." That was my husband's
terminology. He told her if she ran in the street, she might get
squished by a car. That seems to have worked.
As for throwing food at the table, well that's one of those times when
it's good to look at why she's doing it. I don't really mind the
food-throwing; it's just when it lands on me that bugs me! We've
realized, though, that Rachel really hates having anything on her tray
that she doesn't want to eat. So she throws it. We've given her an
option; hand the food to us. Since we've started doing this, she
rarely throws food anymore. What good would a spanking have done in
this case? Her overwhelming desire is to have her tray cleared of
undesirable food. If we hit her, I'm sure she would still be throwing
food, because we hadn't solved the basic problem. I admit it's a
little quirky to not want the food on her plate, but that's her
option.
Rachel isn't an easy child to manage. Sometimes she drives me to
tears and I'd like to throw her out the window. But that is almost
always when I am tired. So, should I hit her because I'm out of
control? Thank heavens that I have a supportive husband that is
willing to take over when I'm over the edge and I do the same for him.
When Dave isn't around to take over, I give myself a timeout.
David Albert's point is good; I also don't think he was talking about
letting your child play with matches. Children get into things
because they are curious; I don't want to squelch that curiousity in
my child. I also don't want her killed, so I make a few rules. And I
think it's my responsiblity to keep those dangerous things out of her
reach. If she's getting into knives and matches, then my house isn't
set up properly for a curious 2 year old and I'm at fault.
In the cases where her defiance is over something harmless, I examine
my rule. A lot of times the rule is senseless and we get rid of it.
Kathie
Angus H Rodgers
m...@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest) writes:
>[...] I sincerely believe a lot of people
>who are avidly against spanking at any time are over-reacting. Kind
>of like reading about a plane crash and refusing to fly.
The analogy is bad. A plane crash is just a fact; but spanking is,
in the strict sense, an intentional act (however thoughtlessly or
routinely it may be performed); and it's the intention which people
are reacting so strongly against. (And, yes, we sometimes overreact.)
Several people who have advocated spanking during this thread have,
to my mind, shown good intentions; and indeed, my own fall-back
position, should things become too tough with Emma (now only 10.5
months [and walking!], so spanking is not even an issue yet), would
be along the lines of the "give them a pat on the butt and a good hug
and a talk afterwards" school of thought.
But many, and I would even say *most*, people who advocate spanking
do so in what I can only call bad faith: they have never seriously
considered either the alternatives to the practice or its possible
consequences; and they produce rationalisations and religious dogmas
instead of reasons or feelings.
And I am afraid that that gives me a serious pain in the butt. :-)
cobar...@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov
in a place they can get to anyway. They are kids, they are curious and if its
in their view they will find out what it does.
Dave,
take a course. learn other ways. In fact I will send you my copy of what I
learned from. It might not be the best, but it helped the heck out of me. So
the offer is I will send you my copy of the course. You take 90 minutes to
listen to it. And when finished send it back. Total cost to you $1.50 postage
and 90 minutes of your time. Give it a shot.
Kristan Geissel
>tears and I'd like to throw her out the window. But that is almost
>always when I am tired. So, should I hit her because I'm out of
>control? Thank heavens that I have a supportive husband that is
>willing to take over when I'm over the edge and I do the same for him.
>When Dave isn't around to take over, I give myself a timeout.
>
Kathie's points here were excellent. I, of course, being a self-
center and "me" oriented person :) picked up on Kathie's remarks
that she lets her husband take over when she is near the edge.
I didn't want to put this in my original post on this issue as I
try very hard not to point out that my life is different than
the traditional two parent home (whether both are working or not).
The days that my SO or best friend or parents are with my daughter
and me (for either an overnight or some significant holiday) it is
MUCH EASIER for me to take time out and if I can do that, I hold
that feeling with me and am able to apply it at home for a period
of time; a vacation from child-rearing if you will.
What are the ways that single parents out there take the time to come
back from the brink of hitting their child? And, I am very sorry and
I don't mean to insult or maim any bi-parents households, but I don't
mean business trips where one parent is responsible for X number of
time periods. You KNOW that is going to end. It's anyone's guess
when single parenthood ends.
Kristan
gwy...@u.washington.edu
David Shackelford
>In article <25...@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
>sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>>
>>What if it's something dangerous like playing with matches or throwing
>>knives etc. Is ANY reason for your child doing these things sufficient
>>to make you let him do them? As for me, these are some things that
>>I will not tolerate.
>
> One question in this spanking thread is 'Can you change a child's
>behavior without spanking him?'
As I have said numerous times, for some children you can, for some you
can't.
> There are people who assume you can't and they go to spanking first.
There are a few people like me who don't assume you can. I'm saying
that when the situation comes up, ALL options are open. I'm not
going to sit here and say "I'll never spank" or "I'll always spank".
I will decide when the time comes, not before.
Patti Twigg
>
> This attitude that anyone who has not given birth can't know about how to
>treat children is pretty pervasive - I have heard it several times in this
>newsgroup. What a crock (excuse my language)!
> (other stuff deleted)
Well, I would like to offer one example that may put this difference
of opinions into perspective. My son's special ed teacher has a son
who just turned 3. She told me last year that she was finally starting
to realize that all that good advice she gave parents of children in
her classes doesn't always work. She has tried it on her son, in the
trenches, so to speak, and seen how things taught in psychology
classes don't always fly. My point is, that book knowledge is good,
but applying it does not always work as expected. Now, I would
think a childless person who has dealt with kids personally, and
not just in books, would be more knowledgeable about the ins and outs
of dealing with kids. Just one data point.
Patti Twigg
Beth Weiss
|> >> Absolutely no playing
|> >> with matches will be tolerated. If spanking doesn't work, I'll go
|> >> through everything I can think of, and get help if nothing works.
|> This looks like an admission that it might not be 100% successful.
|> It also looks like a committment to do whatever it takes.
What I still don't understand, and you haven't justified at all, is why
spanking should be the _first_ level of discipline in any case
whatsoever. Perhaps talking would be effective, and so the physical
force might not ever be needed. Perhaps a trip to a burnt building
would be effective, so a spanking wouldn't be required. Why in the
world would you want to _start_ by bullying your child.
BTW, I was spanked (in today's terms, it would be beaten--it might even
have been then), and I am well-adjusted. My brothers, who were beaten
more, aren't. And there is _still_ a lot of resentment towards my
mother for her physical abuse--using her power to try and make us
behave. Love, affection, and respect are much better motivators than
fear.
--
--Beth Weiss
bwe...@cs.arizona.edu
Beth Weiss
|> Does timeout count as a "natural consequence"? If not, is it an acceptable
|> "unnatural" consequence?
I think it can. For example, "Noone wants to be with people who hit,
so if you hit, you have to be by yourself for X minutes."
--
--Beth Weiss
bwe...@cs.arizona.edu
David Albert
>Another thing I might do that sounds cruel to anti-spankers is to
>scold, tell him he's going to get spanked, and make him wait for
>it (and think about it during the wait). This is how my parents
>connected the offense to the punishment, and I can attest to its
>effectiveness.
I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to answer this article. Maybe
I shouldn't. I am so shocked as I read this that I probably ought
to let this reply wait overnight, but since I'm having a hard time
putting into words the flame response I'm feeling, maybe I'll
just let this article slip by and stop writing on this topic for
a while. How anyone could deliberately apply mental torture to a
child and then brag about it is beyond me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Albert | Illegitimi non carborundum est.
alb...@das.harvard.edu |
David Albert
>(David Albert) writes:
>
> >.... I happen to believe that between the ages of
> >~3 and ~10, the only thing that matters in most cases (certainly in
> >any case in which you and the children are at home and in private and
> >there is no immediate threat to life) is _why_ the child is behaving
> >improperly, not that she is....
>But disobediance might imply a threat to life.
I did specifically rule out threats to life in the part of my article
which you quoted. Do you advocate spanking *only* when a child is in
immediate life-threatening danger? It certainly doesn't sound like it
from your other posts. (Note: even in cases of life-threatening danger,
I would not spank. I don't think it's necessary, and I think spanking
is automatically wrong-unless-necessary, hence I don't think it's right.
But if those are the only times you spank, we've been having the wrong
argument.)
David Shackleford now writes both of the following:
>If I catch a 7 YO playing with matches, he's going to get spanked. If I
>catch him doing it again, he'll get spanked harder.
and
>The result in this situation is all that matters to me. If you can
>achieve 100% results using another method, go ahead. Just be sure
>either it's 100% effective or you have a good insurance policy.
It certainly sounds from your first point as if you don't expect spanking
to be a 100% effective method. If it were, why would you ever "catch him
doing it again"? But then, since it's not 100% effective, why do you
use it?
David Shackelford
>In article <25...@optima.cs.arizona.edu> sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>
>>But disobediance might imply a threat to life. If I catch a 7 YO
>>playing with matches, he's going to get spanked.
>
>ever occur to you that matches and knives and other dangerous
>objects should not be within a child's access?
Please enlighten me on how I'm supposed to childproof against a 7 YO??
I have had a frightening experience with older children & matches:
Kids are playing with matches *under* a mobile home. A gas leak
develops, and the gas company is called in. They discover burned
matches under the house and inform the mother.
She jumps all over the kids about it and their reaction was "If it was
so bad, why didn't you do something like spank us for it when you
caught us before?" That's a DIRECT quote -- I was there. (She wasn't
a spanker at the time)
Diane Lin
>In article <1d8sn4...@network.ucsd.edu> dl...@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin) writes:
>>In article <25...@optima.cs.arizona.edu> sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>>
> >>But disobediance might imply a threat to life. If I catch a 7 YO
> ^^^
> >>playing with matches, he's going to get spanked.
> >
> >Another of the old "ends justifies the means" logic at work. Did it
> >ever occur to you that matches and knives and other dangerous
> >objects should not be within a child's access?
>
>Please enlighten me on how I'm supposed to childproof against a 7 YO??
>
so I would hope that their parents or other responsible adults have
taught them that lesson. As other people have suggested in
misc.kids before, a trip to the local fire station is a great
education, and usually a fascinating, and fun, experience for the
kdis. Before a child is able to understand the dangers involved
with matches, knives, etc., though, it is the parent's
responsibility to keep such hazardous materials away from him or
her, and to supervise the child at all times. IMHO, of course.
Beth Schwindt
going both directions.
Did anyone whose parents didn't spank ever wish they did, rather than
the punishment they actually received?
Many times, my father would scream and yell at me for a long time.
Gradually, I learned to tune him out. He would have been much more
effective in disciplining me if he *had* spanked, instead .....
Beth
--
"We are not free; it was never intended we should be. A book of rules
is placed in our cradles, and we never get rid of it until we reach
our graves."--E.W. Howe, 1924
be...@matt.ksu.ksu.edu be...@ksuvm.ksu.edu
Pete Lancashire
>The spanking segment was so upsetting to watch! I'd be
>surprised if Child Protective Services didn't contact the one
>couple who was flat out abusive to their children, those parents
>can't be allowed to continue to be so cruel. I looked at their
I don't know about CPS/CSD/xxx in your state but in mine,
espically with older children, unless there is direct evidence of
physical abuse, CSD does not get much involved.
-pete
Shirl Grant
My father spanked me once, just once. My mother used a tree switch
(the end of the branch, that thin little green path that the leaves
have to be stripped from) across the backs of my legs when I wouldn't
listen, and I am told I usually had to go fetch it for her.
I NEVER got along with my parents. God knows I tried. They just
didn't understand me (they were 40+ years older than I, which was alot
in the 60-70's).
I never respected my father, even though he was the one against spanking.
I got the above mentioned when I was 12. He asked me "Do you want me
to get up and spank you?", and I said "Why don't you just go ahead?" -
there's no accounting for that pre-teen fresh mouth, eh? My mom had to
pull him and his belt off me.
How do I feel about it all? I told my Dad later that week that he
waited too long to start punishment. I asked him did he think he could
really reverse 12 years of sparing the rod?
I was spoiled, and really screwed my life up once I got out on my own
at 16. I'm glad I burned out fast and got a life (as opposed to
getting one's life back pn track).
Andy Lowry
> >There are good reasons why we don't do this in society. For one
> >thing, there's the idea that we, as a society, consider certain types
> >of behavior as fundamentally wrong. Physical assault is one of them.
>
> What's (fundamentally!) wrong with this argument is that homosexuality,
> marijuana smoking, and (in certain states) teaching evolutionary biology
> (am I right? -- no great U.S.A. expert here!) are also things which "we,
> as a society, consider ... as fundamentally wrong"; but they just aren't
> fundamentally wrong (although they might -- take your pick -- be unwise,
> dangerous, mistaken, unusual ... ).
>
> I'm not just carping (as you might think at first). It weakens one's
> position, in these arguments, to base it on outright moral relativism,
> as you have done. Certain things just *are* fundamentally wrong; and,
> IMO, much (not all!) spanking of children comes under this heading.
I'd say we have a fundamental (there's that word again! :-)
disagreement, since I really can't conceive of a notion of morality
that has any validity outside the context of individuals or groups
making choices that do or do not conform. If it were our nature to
accept or relish homicide, I'd say that in our society homicide would
be perfectly moral. But I wouldn't expect such a society to last very
long. It seems to me that a certain amount of natural selection has
likely shaped some basic instincts that give rise to our common moral
views. Believing this, unless preservation of the human species is
taken axiomatically as being fundamentally good, it's hard to accept
any other moral judgment as being fundamentally good or bad.
...
> My point (sorry about the length of this message) is that spankers
> will often feel that they have Absolute Right on their side (we
> don't have to look far for examples!); and it only reinforces this
> moralistic attitude, if their opponents resort to quoting the
> norms of "this society" -- which can all-too-easily be demonised
> as "Political Correctness" -- so that we then get the kind of response
> from the spanking addict which goes, "Well, it may not be
> *Politically Correct*, but I spank my children, so that they learn
> something about right and wrong, and ... and ... values, and stuff
> like that".
You're absolutely correct that arguments can be twisted and
interpreted to the advantage of whoever feels so inclined. But I
can't argue my case any other way than the way I feel is right.
Among my hopes for my child are (1) that she will grow up with a
morality that is largely in line with mine and that of my wife; (2)
that her moral views will not be so dramatically inconsistent with
those of the society in which she lives as to cause her great distress
or difficulty; (3) that she will be able to compromise, to a certain
extent, in order to live by society's rules even when those rules are
inconsistent with her own moral judgments, and in order to interact
beneficially with other individuals with whom she has moral conflicts;
and (4) that she will have some power to change society when her
morality conflicts with that of society. I believe I can affect the
realization of these goals in some ways, but I know I cannot guarantee
any of them.
> >We (again, as a society) tolerate these behaviors in very limited
> >circumstances, such as physical assault for purposes of self defense.
> >Physical assault for retaliation is *not* tolerated.
>
> Except by governments, when it is mandatory, and resistance to it is
> despised (oh, and I forgot, retaliation is then called "defense", or
> in another context, "law and order").
Yes, clearly my simplistic statement above doesn't hold up under even
fairly mild scrutiny. I'd still say that, at least on an individual
scale, physical assault for retaliation is not generally tolerated,
and that's what I was responding to.
> >To do so would be to lower our moral standards regarding physical
> >assault. Some members of our society would probably like that,
> >but most would not, so it ends up being disallowed.
>
> So it's all just a matter of statistical facts? What happens, then,
> when most citizens of a country support a Fascist regime? Does it
> then become wrong to oppose it?
Well, to most members of that society, probably it does. To others
who perceive the regime has wrong, it does not.
> (Basically, I agree with you! -- It's just your arguments which
> are wrong, not the conclusions.)
I'd rather say you don't find my arguments convincing... relative
instead of absolute again!
> [Sits back and waits to be consumed by flames.]
I hope you don't view this as one... your post was very interesting.
On the other hand, this discussion is a bit off the topic of spanking,
and pretty tenuously in the realm of misc.kids, so if it goes very far
we should probably move it elsewhere (I've already renamed it), lest
we impinge on the collective morality of misc.kids, where it's WRONG
to discuss issues not related to kids! :-)
--
Andy Lowry, lo...@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7925
IBM Research, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY 10598
David Shackelford
>In article <25...@optima.cs.arizona.edu> sh...@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>>
>> But disobediance might imply a threat to life. If I catch a 7 YO
>> with matches will be tolerated. If spanking doesn't work, I'll go
>> through everything I can think of, and get help if nothing works.
>>
>> achieve 100% results using another method, go ahead. Just be sure
>> either it's 100% effective or you have a good insurance policy.
>
I repeat for the hearing impaired :-)
>> Absolutely no playing
>> with matches will be tolerated. If spanking doesn't work, I'll go
>> through everything I can think of, and get help if nothing works.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This looks like an admission that it might not be 100% successful.
It also looks like a committment to do whatever it takes.
>Disciplining a child for something they did can send a number of
>messages, among them:
>
> - What I did was wrong, and I shouldn't ever do it again.
> - What I did made Daddy or Mommy so mad they spanked me, so I
> shouldn't ever get caught doing it again.
I forgot to mention that from the earliest age possible I would
take steps to ensure the child THINKS that it's impossible to do
it without getting caught. I'm not to that point yet, so don't
know offhand how I'll accomplish this. I can say, however, that
as a child I was certain that my mother knew everything I did.
>Obviously, the former is what we hope for. I can certainly conceive
>of spanking instilling this message in some children in some
>circumstances. But I can also very easily see it instilling the
>second message.
Granted, the message might not get through. That's why we also
talk to the kid in addition to smacking him.
> The reason is that the punishment had no logical
>tie-in with the offense. If you can find a way to demonstrate the
>potential harmfulness of what they did, that's one way to instill the
>first message. Sometimes that's not practical, especially right on
>the spot (e.g. maybe at some point you'll have the opportunity to show
>your child a burning building as the fire department is fighting it,
>and talk about how awful it must be to have your home and belongings
>go up in smoke, and then relate it all back to matches; but it's not
>likely to be an option immediately). In those situations you can at
>least explain to the child why the behavior was wrong and then use
>something like time-out that will at least encourage them to think
>about what they did and about what you said to them. After all,
>they'll have to think about *something* during that quiet time since
>there won't be anything to distract them (assuming you've implemented
>time-outs effectively).
Another thing I might do that sounds cruel to anti-spankers is to
scold, tell him he's going to get spanked, and make him wait for
it (and think about it during the wait). This is how my parents
connected the offense to the punishment, and I can attest to its
effectiveness.
>
>If my goal in administering punishment is to make the child understand
>that the behavior was wrong, then I honestly can't see any
>justification for spanking, since it just seems so obviously
>ineffective.
It is not ineffective. Proof by contradiction. I was spanked by
my parents. I am well-adjusted and have normal (if somewhat
conservative) values. Spanking was effective with me. Therefore
it is not ineffective. QED.
Judy Leedom Tyrer
>brats. The happiness of the child, and the satisfaction they get from
>life, are secondary concerns. Just make sure the parents' job isn't
>any more difficult than it has to be during the time they're
>responsible. After that, the child (now an adult) can deal with
>their own miserable life, and the parents will be off the hook.
I realize you are being sarcastic here, but I think you are being highly
unfair to parents with this statement. If you look around you at the adults
yuo know that are still brats you might find that not one of them is a happy
well adjusted adult. Life requires self-discipline. We, as adults, must
learn to put aside momentary pleasures for long term gain. This is the core
of discipline, from the religious person who fasts as a form of self discipline
to the athlete that takes time for weight training so improve their performance.
There is no way to make parenting easier. We can only make it less stressful
and keep ourselves sane. And to do this we must have a peaceful household
and a good relationship with our children.
You are clearly not a parent and I find your attitude toward parents insulting.
While you may be able to quote study after study (and ALL the experts don't
agree on spanking, by the way) you are like a military strategist complaining
that the infantry cannot hike 40 miles a day having never walked more than
from your desk to the bathroom. "Hey, I've studies statistics and know the
capacity of the human body. These infrantrymen are just wimps."
Next time you go home from work, grab a drink, and relax to some soothing
music or a favorite television program, remember that your collegues who
are parents are now home changing diapers, wiping snotty noses, listening
to siblings fight, doing 6 loads of laundry, trying to talk to their spouses
and failing, helping with homework, fixing toys, and will not have a chance
to relax until they fall dead tired into bed only to be woken up at least
three times in the middle of the night with nightmares, sick children,
hungry babies, ghosts under the bed, etc. Add to that the fact that their
children are busy stirring up within them all the emotional baggage of their
own childhood which they have not fully resolved. Now, if you have a very
good imagination you have a 10% inkling of what it is like to parent.
No, I don't listen to advice on parenting from people who don't have children
older than mine! I don't care how many degrees they have. Because an expert
is someone who can DO the job, not someone who has read books or interviewed
people about it. If you're that interested in chidlren, why not have a few
and then talk.
--
Judy Leedom Tyrer
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" - William Blake
Judy Leedom Tyrer
>
>I went to a seminar 2 weeks ago about alternatives to physical
>punishment for kids, and the speaker said potty training is the
>number one reason given for physical child abuse. I can believe
>that!!
> Patti Twigg
I can't. I mean, potty training is really easy if you let it be the child's
responsibility and not yours (actually, I'm coming to learn that parenting
is easier this way as well). When a child is capable of toileting, interested
in toileting, and willing to please their parents (i.e., don't try this in
the throes of their contrary phase) toilet training becomes a no-op. Sure,
you'll have some accidents to clean up, but what's a little urine or poop
on the floor (or in your shoes, for that matter)?
With Mitchell we realized he had to be toilet trained to start pre-school.
So the day after he got in (in May) we took his diapers off and put him
in underwear. He was 2 yrs. 9 mos. 3 weeks later he was trained both in
the daytime and 70% of the night time. About a month later he regressed for
a week, but we just rode with it.
Erin was toilet trained all summer. But she doesn't have the dexterity to
pull pants on and off and now that she has to be in clothes she wants to
be in diapers as well. She just toileted so she could go naked. No problem.
We have until next September when she starts school so we put her back
in diapers. I thought she was too young anyway. She's only 2 and 4 mos.
I believe child abuse happens when parents allow themselves to get caught
up in a power struggle with their children and insist on winning. I've been
mildly abusive (verbally, a quick swat on the butt, nothing society would
frown on but behavior I don't approve of for myself) for the same reasons.
I guess I've become a zealot on this, but giving children power to make their
own decisions and only having responsibility to enforce the consequences of
their choices has been such a solution for us. My home life has gone from
chaos in which I was always exhausted into a peaceful (mostly) routine. I
decide how I'm going to behave. The children decide how they are going to
behave and the power struggles are fewer and further between. (Out of the
house with a 2 YO Olympic track star is another story, but she can run faster
than I can so that's why I get so exhausted there).
Parenting isn't easy. But there are methods that can make it a whole lot
less stressful. We all need to find those and they are probably different
for each family. But they do exist.
Pete Lancashire
Shirl,
To close, except for your mother using a switch. I said the IDENTICAL
thing to my father, a father who 'did not know if I existed'. My mother
did not know how to punish.
-pete
Judy Leedom Tyrer
> ... WE DON'T DO IT and we don't
>think it is right for anyone else to do 'because taking care of kids is such
>a tough job...'
If you were to take this sentence and apply it to almost any socially
controversial behavior, would you still believe the same.
Abortion - WE DON'T DO IT and we don't think it is right for anyone else to do
because pregnancy, labor, and delivery is so hard on the body.
Drink Alcohol - WE DON'T DO IT and we don't think it is right for anyone else
to do because life is so stressful.
Put children in daycare - WE DON'T DO IT and we don't think it is right for
anyone else to do because living on one salary is so difficult.
I hope you see my point. I know that you have always advocated tolerance in
this newsgroup. I think you could do with some on this issue. I would have
expected the comment "We don't spank and feel that we have made the right
decisions for our child and our family." I don't even mind that in your
heart of hearts you think it is the right decision for everyone. I just have
to object to the way you state your case here.
Judy Leedom Tyrer
>Alright, I admit this is a topic that I feel VERY STRONGLY and EMOTIONALLY
>about, but I do have a serious question for the parents who DO spank,
>and who have more than one child.
>
>If your oldest hits one of his/her younger siblings, what do you do?
Well, we used the "pow-wow" method of spanking (quick painless pop on the
butt through diapers, pants, jackets etc. to get the child's attention). At
about 3.5 Mitchell matured and we found other methods of discipline and have
not used it with him since. My last estimate of number of spankings was about
8 and all between the ages of 2 to 3.5. Erin has had one such spanking and
that was for running in the street (after all the recommended approaches to
keeping her from it).
And my children DO fight. I fear it is my fault. I used to get down on
the floor an wrestle with them and they love it. So one of the games at
our house is Erin pulls a rather large chunk of Mitchell's hair and runs
away as fast as she can while he chases her and finally catches her and
slugs her. She giggles, pulls his hair, and the game repeats itself.
However, Mitchell is aware that he is not allowed to hit his sister and now
will call us to intervene when Erin is annoying him. I have chosen to
prefer tattling to hitting. Erin is in her room. If they are both fighting
they are both in their rooms (i.e., when Mitchell retaliate instead of
calling for help). Mitchell is amply rewarded for "controlling himself"
(remember to phrase those commands positively - "control yourself" vs.
"don't hit").
The problem in our house isn't the older child. It is the younger one. She
loves to fight. She doesn't mind getting hurt and just comes back for more.
She is a LOT like the baby on dinosaurs. "AGAIN!" Erin spends a LOT of
time in her room.
One thing we have started when both children are fighting (Hey, he's come
a long way, but he isn't perfect) is to treat them as a unit. You're fighting,
you have to separate and go to your rooms. As they get older it becomes
possible to find out what is happening. But with a non-verbal child "In your
room" is as good as it gets.
Daniel G Knierim
>In article <1992Nov3.1...@cbfsb.cb.att.com> m...@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest) writes:
> > ANYWAY - we have been observing and questioning the parents of
> > children that we want OUR kids to be like (happy, secure - yea, I
> > know we're dreaming ;-)). In every case where we KNOW whether or
> > not they spank, they DO - in very, very limited situations.
>I'd be interested to hear what you would find if you asked the parents
>of kids you *don't* want your kids to be like. In a society in which
>spanking is as widespread as I understand it to be in this country,
>it's not surprising that you got the answers you got. It's also not
>surprising to me that you didn't find anybody that spanks more than
>rarely.
>I think it's clear that it's possible to include spanking as a small
>part of a sound and effective program of discipline.
I agree.
>But from what
>I've seen it's also possible, and not even very difficult, to develop
>a sound and effective program of discpline *without* spanking.
I agree, with the exception that I think developing a sound and effective
program of discipline is difficult no matter what approach you take.
>If this is true and all other factors were equal, I don't think anybody
>would disagree that spanking is cruel and unacceptable.
I strongly disagree. If you agree that spanking can be part of a sound and
effective program of discipline, why would you call its use in that manner
cruel and unacceptable? I certainly agree spanking *can* be cruel, but I
really don't understand why people take examples of cruel use of spanking
to mean that any use of spanking is cruel.
In another post someone likened spanking to arsenic poisoning: Large doses
are known to be bad, but obviously small doses are also bad, even if the
effects aren't immediately obvious. By the same line of reasoning, since
sitting a small child on the bottom of a 10' deep swimming pool is known to
be bad, it is obviously also bad to put children in the bathtub. Isn't it?
- Dan Knierim
These opinions aren't worth the standard disclaimer form they're printed on!
Grace Sylvan
Ok, I'm curious...many people have voiced their opinions against
spanking...I have voiced my opinions about the usefulness of
spanking in child-raising...
[....]
So, if you were raised in a home where your parents spank, and they didn't
do so in an abusive manner, AND you oppose spanking, I'd sure like to hear
briefly why you do....either post, or email and I'll summarize. [I have been
following this thread, so no need to make it a long letter discussing what's
been said already. Please keep it brief]
My parents didn't spank or hit often. But a family story is how I
powdered my napping mom's black pants with my baby bro's baby powder,
and how I 'got it' for that.
I was raised in an extremely autocratic (and Christian) home, where
there was always the danger of getting in trouble (punished) for
'wrong' behaviors. This upbringing caused me to avoid telling my
parents anything about my life that I could, for fear of unexpected
(or expected) reprisals. My sister had the same reaction, and once we
could move out and had control of our own lives, we told our parents
next to nothing about anything going on for us. The lack of trust that
I felt for my parents has indeed followed me to my marriage. I often
felt that I couldn't trust Kayvan to be honestly concerned with my
wellbeing, and to be making suggestions to me that *would* be good for
me, not just 'what he thought I should be doing'.
Katherine has been raised w/o spanking, and without much punishment. I
believe (as I'm sure many who punish their child do) that my job is
to guide/teach my daughter about expected social behaviors, to care
for others, and so on. While parts of being a parent came naturally -
we've also done a lot to LEARN techniques (and, as time went on, our
attitudes shifted some, too). But that will be another post, I am
going to answer the 'alternatives to spanking' query.
--
Tigger (Grace Sylvan) Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tig...@satyr.sylvan.com Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
Robin Gregory born 2/28/92
"It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
children become humane and strong."
- Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish