Joint physical custody with a commute
an1...@anon.penet.fi
physical custody of a young child (say, between 2 and 5) when the
parents live at least a 30 minute commute apart (because they work 1+
hours apart). I am also interested in any references to how various
schemes help or hurt young children.
For the moment we are looking at switching off on a weekly basis, and
using the same daycare (near one of the parents but 30 minutes from
the other) no matter which parent the child is sleeping with that
night (there is no daycare we would consider at midpoint--geography is
complicated). We plan to pay someone to transport the child to and
from daycare during the weeks he is staying away from the parent who
lives near daycare. One week switch offs seem to be the rule these
days, but we don't know how well this will work given our geographic
problems. For various reasons, it would be extremely difficult to
change either job in the near future.
The divorce is not messy and each of us have every desire to continue
with strong relationships with our son. Our marriage has been set up
so that we almost always deal with our son independantly, so he isn't
really used to having both parents around at the same time, though
this will be a longer period before switching off. We want to know
how any other parents who have had such physical pragmatics have
worked this out. We are interested in books or pointers of any kind.
We are also interested in how one goes about talking to the right kind
of professional to help our son--that is, is there anyone who
specializes in trying to help us make our son's life good given the
constraints we have mentioned? How will things change when he hits
school age?
Please, we are not at the moment interested in how much we are hurting
our son by divorcing. We've each heard millions of stories from
people about how much they hated it when their parents divorced. The
divorce is going to happen: how can we minimize its negative impact on
us and maximize any positive aspects we can think of?
Replies posted or emailed are welcome. If I get enough that there is
something to summarize (and anyone expresses interest), I will do so.
Sorry for the anonymity, but there are good reasons for it right now.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to he...@anon.penet.fi.
Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized,
and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to ad...@anon.penet.fi.
Valerie Jorge Hayes
parents live some distance apart.)
Interesting you say that it is becoming the norm these days, as
my BIL is working with a lawyer right now who tells him that
there were lots of 50/50 arrangements, but that it is NOT the
norm any more, as they don't seem to take the best interest
of the child into consideration.
I would be very reluctant to have a hired driver drive a child
every day, every other week. I would not be comfortable with
that situation at all, and I can't believe it is in the child's
best interest to have a "driver" pick him up from school, communicate
with the daycare about the day's activities, etc.
Also realize that once regular school starts, this 50/50 arrangement
would probably again not be in the best interest of the child.
Geez, if your son is so important, perhaps one of you could move
so you live closer. 30 minutes apart isn't much for this part
of the world (SF Bay Area), but I don't fully understand your
1+ hours apart. Perhaps the parents need to figure out how
they can make this transition less tramatic for the child by taking
some of the burden of driving upon themselves???
My husband has physical custody of his daughter and he and the mother
lived 90 miles apart. The mom saw the daughter 4 days every-other-week
until the daughter started school. She drove one direction, he
drove the other direction. Lots of driving for the parents, but
lots of driving for a little child too (this started when she was about 3).
It helped that the mom didn't work so she was available to take
her daughter on Thursday and Friday without a hardship. Perhaps
you could look into a more flexible work schedule??
Good luck. My stepdaughter spent about 2-3 years in therapy beginning
when she was 4, and another year when she was 10. There are a lot of
additional circumstances (mother is manic/depressive, recovering alcoholic
who basically abandoned her daughter through her continued drinking).
You might want to find a therapist who has experience working with
children. Our's helped my stepdaughter a great deal, and continues
to do so.
Valerie
Remember, he has to do all the commuting with this hired driver!
Rick Kuhn
|> (Long anonymous message about joint custody of 2-3 year old, when
|> parents live some distance apart.)
|>
|> Interesting you say that it is becoming the norm these days, as
|> my BIL is working with a lawyer right now who tells him that
|> there were lots of 50/50 arrangements, but that it is NOT the
|> norm any more, as they don't seem to take the best interest
|> of the child into consideration.
|>
Sorry, I can't let this pass. When I first went to a lawyer, I was told
that "the experts" don't usually recommend joint physical custody. My
lawyer advised me to sue for sole custody, because she expected me to
win. But I started asking more questions and studying all the research
I could find. It turns out that "the experts" she was referring to are
two psychologists in the area who are routinely called as "expert
witnesses" by lawyers seeking sole custody for their clients. Not
coincidentally, they also do custody evaluations to decide between
parents, for upwards of $10,000 a shot. Asking these guys what they think of
sole vs. joint custody is like asking the Tobacco Institute what they think
of the safety of smoking.
I also read as much as I could find on the subject. The empirical
research falls into two categories: one stream of research finds joint
custody to be superior for children's adjustment, the other finds no
difference. Lack of a definitive conclusion is not unusual in social
science research, but the remarkable thing is that I found *no* comparison
study showing sole custody to be better. There are certainly
*opinions* against joint custody of course, but these are generally from
people like those mentioned above, who feed off the divorce industry.
In the end, I agreed to joint custody, rather than see my children torn
apart in a court battle.
That was last year. Things have gone relatively well. The kids
alternate weeks, with dinner visits to the "off duty" parent during
the week. We have houses that are within walking distance,
and that helps. The kids don't seem to feel awkward about the situation,
since they have several friends who alternate weeks
between parents. It's pretty common in this area, since we have a high
percentage of two-income households. Even my two year old seems
comfortable with the idea of "da-eee house" and "ma-eee house".
I'm not saying there aren't problems, but I know kids and parents in
both kinds of custody situations, and the problems we have are minor
compared with what I've seen in the sole custody situations. My kids
have never burst into tears in the middle of a Cub Scout meeting, or
gone running out of the school to hide in the bushes. Their grades are
just as good as before. Joint custody helps reduce conflict between
parents, because both are equal participants in raising the kids.
Last week I watched two other co-parents standing next to each other,
taping the school play. I know the circumstances of their divorce, and
believe me, three years ago no one would have expected them to be able
to be in the same room together. I have been dating a wonderful woman
who is a joint custody parent. I know what a rough situation she had,
but she and her ex have been successfully co-parenting for several
years. It never ceases to amaze me how judges think they can reduce
conflict between parents by taking the kids away from one of them. If
firefighters thought like judges, they would be spraying gasoline
instead of water.
My advice to the original poster of this thread is to go for it; your
child will be much better off, and you will too. But one of you
should try to get a house closer to the other one. A long commute to
work is better than a long commute for your son, especially when he
starts school. Joint custody is inconvenient sometimes, but anyone who
has kids signs up for at least 18 years of inconvenience. You owe it to
your son to protect his relationship with both parents. I knew in my
heart I was doing the right thing for my kids when I was talking to a
friend at work one day. His parents had split up when he was very
young. He had never heard of joint custody, but he understood instantly
when I explained it. "The kids seem comfortable with it ..." I started
saying. He finished the sentence for me: "...because they know they
aren't losing one of you."
I regret not being able to sign my name, but I want to protect the
privacy of the people I've mentioned.
Following are summaries of joint custody studies from Dr. David Garrod,
Purdue U.:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
What follows are papers published on joint custody, primarily theses
because that`s usually the best source. I have started with 1980 as
a starting date arbitrarily because that limits to about 30 titles.
Please note in considering research in this area that it is important
to place more trust on comparative studies than descriptive studies.
There are a lot of subjective conclusions made and comparison studies,
i.e. comparing same-age, same-sex children from different environments
is less subjective than just looking at children from one environment
and trying to come to conclusions from interviews.
The main research papers discussing custody issues:
D.A. Luepnitz. Maternal, paternal and joint custody: A study of families
after divorce. Doctoral thesis 1980. State University of New York at
Buffalo. UMI No. 80-27618.
Luepnitz studied single parent custody and joint custody. Most single
parent children were dissatisfied with the amount of visitation they had,
whereas the children of joint custody arrangements seemed reasonably happy
with their exposure to both their parents. The quality of the parent-child
relationship was determined to be better for joint custody. (The ncp-child
relationship is described as more like an aunt or uncle - child relationship.)
S.A. Nunan. Joint custody versus single custody effects on child
development. Doctoral thesis 1980. California School of Professional
Psychology, Berkeley, UMI No. 81-10142
Nunan compared 20 joint custody children (ages 7-11) with 20 age-matched
children in sole maternal custody. All families were at least two
years after separation or divorce. Joint custody children were found
to have higher ego strengths, superego strengths and self-esteem than
the single custody children. The joint custody children were also
found to be less excitable and less impatient than their sole custody
counterparts. For children under four at the time of separation
the differences were very small.
B. Welsh-Osga. The effects of custody arrangements on children of divorce.
Doctoral thesis 1981. University of South Dakota. UMI No. 82-6914.
Welsh-Osga compared children in intact families with joint custody
and single custody families. Age range 4 1/2 to 10 years old.
Children from joint custody were found to be more satisfied with the
time spent with both parents. Parents in joint custody were found to
be more involved with their children. (Joint custody parents found
to be less overburdened by parenting responsibilities than sole custody
parents.) Children from all four groups (intact families, sole maternal,
sole paternal, joint custody) were found to be equally well adjusted by
their various standardized measures.
D.B. Cowan. Mother Custody versus Joint Custody: Children`s parental
Relationship and Adjustment. Doctoral Thesis 1982. University of
Washington. UMI No. 82-18213.
Cowan compared 20 joint custody and 20 sole (maternal) custody families.
Children in joint physical custody were rated as better adjusted by their
mothers compared with children of sole custody mothers.
The children`s perceptions in sole custody situations correlated with
the amount of time spent with their father! The more time children
from sole maternal custody spent with their fathers, the more accepting
BOTH parents were perceived to be, and the more well-adjusted were the
children.
E.G. Pojman. Emotional Adjustment of Boys in Sole and Joint Custody
compared with Adjustment of Boys in Happy and Unhappy Marriages.
Doctoral thesis 1982. California Graduate Institute. UMI No. ?
Pojman compared children in the age range 5 to 13 years old.
Boys in joint custody were significantly better adjusted than boys in
sole maternal custody. Comparing boys in all groups, boys in joint
custody compared very similarly to boys from happy families.
E.B. Karp. Children`s adjustment in joint and single custody: An
Empirical Study. Doctoral thesis 1982. Californis school of professional
psychology, Berkeley. UMI No. 83-6977.
Age range of children 5 to 12 years, studying early period of separation
or divorce. Boys and girls in sole custody situation had more negative
involvement with their parents than in joint custody situation. There was
in increase reported in sibling rivalry reported for sole custody children
when visiting their father (ncp). Girls in joint custody reported
to have significantly higher self-esteem than girls in sole custody.
D.A. Luepnitz. Child Custody: A Study of Families after Divorce.
Lexington Books 1982.
A summary of the thesis in book form.
J.A. Livingston. Children after Divorce: A Psychosocial analysis of the
effects of custody on self esteem. Doctoral thesis 1983. State University
of New York at Buffalo. UMI No. 83-26981.
Children in joint custody situations were found to be better adjusted
than children in sole custody situations.
L.P. Noonan. Effects of long-tern conflict on personality functioning of
children of divorce. Doctoral thesis 1984. The Wright Institute Graduate
School of Psychology, Berkeley. UMI No. 84-17931.
Long-term effects were studied in joint custody, sole maternal custody
and intact families. Children in joint custody families were found to be
more active than in sole custody families or intact families. In low conflict
situations children did better (demonstrated less withdrawal) than in either
sole custody or intact families.
V. Shiller. Joint and Maternal Custody: The outcome for boys aged 6-11
and their parents. Doctoral thesis 1984. University of Delaware.
UMI No. 85-11219.
The thesis compares 20 boys in joint custody with 20 matched boys in
sole maternal custody. A number of tests were used. Boys from a joint
custody environment were found to be better adjusted than boys from a
sole custody environment.
M.R. Patrician. The effects of legal child-custody status on persuasion
strategy choices and communication goals of fathers. Doctoral Thesis 1984.
University of San Francisco. UMI No. 85-14995.
90 fathers were questioned regarding how unequal recognition of parental
rights might encourage conflict. Joint legal custody was found to
encourage parental cooperation and dis-courage self-interest. Sole custody
in both custodial AND non-custodial status encouraged punishment-oriented
persuasion strategies. Unequal custody power was perceived as inhibiting
parental cooperation by BOTH parents.
G.M. Bredefeld. Joint Custody and Remarriage: its effects on marital
adjustment and children. Doctoral Thesis. California School of Professional
Psychology, Fresno. UMI No. 85-10926
Both sole and joint custody children adjusted well to the remarriage of
their parent; no significant difference found between the groups. The parents
of joint custody situations, however, expressed more satisfaction with
their children and indicated that they appreciated the time alone with their
new spouse. Sole custody children also reported seeing their father less
often after remarriage of the mother; this did not happen in joint custody
situations.
B.H. Granite. An investigation of the relationships among self-concept,
parental behaviors, and the adjustment of children in different living
arrangements following a marital separation and/or divorce. Doctoral
thesis 1985. Unviersity of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia. UMI No. 85-23424.
Parents in sole custodial homes (both maternal and paternal) were perceived
as using psychological pressure techniques to control children. e.g. inducing
guilt. However, in joint custody homes, the perception of the children was
that such techniques were seldom used. No difference in self-concept was
detectable among the different homes. Children`s ages 9-12 years. 15 joint,
15 maternal sole, 15 paternal sole.
S. Handley. The experience of the child in sole and joint custody.
Doctoral thesis 1985. California Graduate School of Marriage and Family
Therapy.
Joint custody children more satisfied than sole custody children.
S.M.H.Hanson. Healthy single parent families. Family Relations v.35,
p.125-132, 1985.
21 joint custody and 21 sole custody families compared. Mothers in joint
custody found in better mental health. Mothers with sole custody sons had
teh least amount of social support and mothers with joint custody of sons
had the most. Joint custody mothers reported best child-parent problem
solving of all.
Wolchik, Braver and Sandler. 1985. I think in Journal of Orthopsychiatry,
but have misplaced reference. Self-esteem found higher in children of
joint custody. Children in joint custody report significantly more
positive experiences than children of sole maternal custody.
J. Pearson and N. Thoennes. The Judges Journal, Winter, 1986.
Child support compared among sole custody and joint custody. Joint
custody shown to produce much better compliance in child support payments
to the mother.
J.S. Wallerstein and R. McKinnon. Joint Custody and the Preschool Child.
Behavioral Sciences and the Law, v.4, p.169-183, 1986.
This paper presents joint custody for young children in a negative light,
however, it is based on descriptive research not comparative research, having
no control or comparison group.
M.B. Isaacs, G.H. Leon and M. Kline. When is a parent out of the picture?
Different custody, different perceptions. Family Process, v.26, p.101-110,
1987.
This study compares children from five groups: joint physical custody,
joint-legal maternal-physical, joint-legal paternal-physcial, sole maternal
and sole paternal custody. On their measurement of how children perceive
the importance of family members, sole custody children were three times
mores likely to omit one parent than joint custody situations.
F.S. Williams. Child Custody and Parental Cooperation. American Bar Assn,
Family Law, August 1987.
Williams studied high-conflict, high-risk situations. He found that
children in sole custody (typically but not exclusively maternal) much
more likely to be subject to parental kidnapping and/or physical harm.
He found that high-conflict families do better and are more likely to
learn cooperative behavior when given highly detailed orders from the
judge.
E.E. Maccoby, R.H. Mnookin and C.E. Depner. Post-divorce families:
Custodial arrangements compared. American Association of Science,
Philadelphia. May 1986.
Mothers with joint custody were found to be more satisfied, when compared
with mothers in sole custody situation.
V. Shiller. Joint versus maternal families with latency age boys:
Parent characteristics and child adjustment. American Journal of
Orthopsychiatry, v. 56, p. 486-9, 1986.
Interviews with boys asa well as with both parents. Age group 6-11.
Found boys from joint custody families better adjusted than comparison
group of boys from sole maternal custody families.
A GOOD REVIEW PAPER:
J.B. Kelly. Longer term adjustment in children of divorce: Converging
Findings and Implications for Practice. Journal of Family Psychology,
v.2, p.112-140, 1988.
M. Zaslow. Sex Differences in children`s response to parental divorce.
Paper 1. Research methodology and postdivorce family forms. American
J. of Orthopsychiatry. v.58, 355, 1988.
Paper 2. Samples, Variables, Ages and Sources. Am. J. Orthopsychiatry,
v.59, p118, 1989.
J.S. Wallerstein and S. Blakeslee. Second chances: Men, women and
children after divorce. New York,Ticknor and Fields. 1989
M. Kline, J.M. Tschann, J.R. Johnson and J.S. Wallerstein. Children`s
adjustment in joint and sole custody families. Developmental Psychology,
v. 25, p. 430-435, 1989.
This work finds that in non-conflicted joint and sole custody families
there is little measurable difference between a child`s behavior in sole
or joint custody. (Strangely, this paper states "Some quantitative
studies have found no differences in symptomatology between joint and sole
custody children", citing work by Luepnitz and also Wolchik, Braver and
Sandler. However, Luepnitz pointed out that joint custody children retain
a more normal parent-child relationship than sole custody children, Wolchik
et al found that joint custody children have significantly more positive
experiences and higher self-esteem than sole custody counter-parts!)
Lehrman paper
Study of 90 children, equally divided between joint physical, joint-legal
maternal, and sole maternal custody. Sole custody children shown to have
greater self-hate and perceived more rejection from their fathers.
Joint physical and joint legal custody children suffered fewer emotional
problems than sole custody children.
1990 paper, have mis-placed reference.
L.M.C. Bisnaire, P.Firestone and D. Rynard. Factors associated with
academic achievement in children following parent separation.
American J. of Orthopsychiatry. v.60(1), p.67-76, 1990
Visitation found to be a most significant factor in enabling children to
maintain pre-divorce academic standards.
J. Pearson and N. Thoennes. Custody after divorce: Demographic and
attitudinal patterns. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, v.60(2),
p. 233-249, 1990.
Regular visitation shown to be significant in a number of factors
explaining posive adjustment patterns.
R.A. Warshak. The Custody Revolution. 1992.
D. Popenoe, Associate Dean for Social and Behavioral Sciences of Rutgers
University, co-chairman of the Council on Families in America. "The
Controversial Truth: Two-parent Families are Better." Published in
Speak out for Children, v.8 Winter 1992-3.
Various presentations at the Children`s Rights Conferences:
e.g. 7th National conference, "Beyond Rhetoric: Assuring a Child`s
Right to Two Parents", April 1993.
Both Richard Warshak and Nancy Thoennes gave papers at this conference.
Various publications of The Joint Custody Assosiation. James A. Cook,
10606 Wilkins Ave, Los Angeles, CA 90024.
The Best Parent is Both Parents, D.L. Levy, Hampton Roads Publishing Co.,
Norfolk, Virginia. 1 (800) 677-8707. 1993.
Address for obtaining theses:
University Microfilms International, 300 North Zeeb Rd, Ann Arbor,
MI 48106. 1 (800) 521-3042.
I have some more references, but they are not filed appropriately.
I will dig extra stuff out and re-post the whole file at a later date.
David Garrod
If you just want to go to one source, probably, "The Custody Revolution"
by Richard Warshak is as good a source as any. Check your local library.
Extra Comments re visitation schedule:
(My conclusions from testimony given by professionals at the Indiana
Child Support Advisory Committee and from my private discussions with
these people at hearing and at conferences.)
The visitation schedule appropriate for the child VARIES with the age
of the child and very well may not be optimal from the parent`s point
of view. (But are we trying to do the best for the child or the parents?)
Recommended visitation:
Child under 1 year old: Part of each day
Age 1 < child < age 2 years: Every other day
Age 2 < child < age 5 years: Not more than two days without seeing each
parent.
Age 5 < child < age 8 years: Alternate weeks, with the non-custodial parent
getting a mid-week visitation for his/her
non-custody week.
Child > 8 or 9 years: Alternating weeks.
Note: This should not be interpreted as a hard and fast schedule, since
children develop and mature at different rates.
One of the problems associated with visitation is the inflexibility that
often develops between parents as time goes on. I have simply reported
above what is considered by child psychologists as optimal, assuming
parents will cooperate.
David Garrod
From dove!uunet!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!netcomsv!cds8604!Cadence.COM!fran Mon Aug 30 08:07:01 1993
Xref: dove alt.dads-rights:5570 alt.child-support:7616 alt.support.step-parents:444 soc.men:44136 soc.women:40572 misc.legal:42349 sci.psychology:8747
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.step-parents,soc.men,soc.women,misc.legal,sci.psychology
Path: dove!uunet!spool.mu.edu!umn.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!netcomsv!cds8604!Cadence.COM!fran
From: fr...@Cadence.COM (Fran Peterson)
Subject: Re: Mediation - An Idea Whose Time Has Come
Message-ID: <1993Aug27.1...@Cadence.COM>
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
References: <1993Aug25.2...@Cadence.COM> <1993Aug26....@sequent.com> <mblum.7...@berry.cs.brandeis.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1993 17:37:27 GMT
Lines: 23
In article <mblum.7...@berry.cs.brandeis.edu> mb...@cs.brandeis.edu (Cerebus) writes:
>
>My parents used the 3/4 mode of joint custody from the time they
>seperated when I was seven until I decided to reduce the amount of
>time spent with my father when I was fifteen. The comparison to
>spending time at a friend's house is ridiculous - home is with both
>parents, each in turn. I never packed much, and never had a problem.
>I think that at least consideration of this mode, that requires the
>least time spent apart from each parent is a wholly intelligent and
>caring thing,
if the parents really have the child's interests at heart.
This statement says it all.
It's nice to hear from someone like you who has lived the situation
from a childs point of view. It sounds like it was very well thought
out and everyone worked at it which helped its success. Maybe you'd
like to share more indepth info. that might help others.
F [:)
From dove!uunet!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!newell Mon Aug 30 08:07:40 1993
Xref: dove alt.dads-rights:5577 alt.child-support:7623 alt.support.step-parents:447 soc.men:44147 soc.women:40581 misc.legal:42366 sci.psychology:8759
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.step-parents,soc.men,soc.women,misc.legal,sci.psychology
Path: dove!uunet!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!newell
From: new...@sequent.com (Donald Newell)
Subject: Re: Mediation - An Idea Whose Time Has Come
Message-ID: <1993Aug27....@sequent.com>
Sender: use...@sequent.com (usenet )
Nntp-Posting-Host: eng2.sequent.com
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
References: <CCBpA...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> <1993Aug25.2...@Cadence.COM> <1993Aug26....@sequent.com> <1993Aug27.1...@Cadence.COM>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 22:00:39 GMT
Lines: 33
In article <1993Aug27.1...@Cadence.COM> fr...@Cadence.COM (Fran Peterson) writes:
>
>I attended seminars and workshops are parenting and it was surprising
>that most of the people that attend these types of programs were mostly
>step parents and that's where I learned about situations like mine. My
>husband & I also went to Tough Love for awhile and heard simular situtations
>some worse than ours.
>
>If it works for you that's great and that's all that matters. I'd be
>intersted in what type of 3/4 variation you have. Why does your son want
>it rather than alternate weeks?
>
> [... whack whack ...]
The problem with this kind of extrapolation is that you are
working from a self-selected group. It would seem likely that
people who go to these seminars are those who have experienced
problems.
Some weeks my son spends three nights with me and four with his
Mom, some weeks the other way round. The exact days differ from
week to week depending on circumstances, but he usually spends
Monday and Wednesday with me. He alternates weekends between us
and other days are flexible.
He prefers this arrangement as it keeps him from being seperated from
either parent for more than a couple days. If the parents really want
this kind of schedule to work it seems better than any other I've seen.
Don N.
From dove!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!uchinews!iitmax!suriano Mon Aug 30 08:09:52 1993
Xref: dove alt.dads-rights:5575 alt.child-support:7621 alt.support.step-parents:446 soc.men:44145 soc.women:40579 misc.legal:42364 sci.psychology:8757
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.step-parents,soc.men,soc.women,misc.legal,sci.psychology
Path: dove!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!uchinews!iitmax!suriano
From: sur...@iitmax.iit.edu (candice suriano)
Subject: Re: Joint Custody Schedules
Message-ID: <1993Aug27.2...@iitmax.iit.edu>
Organization: Illinois Institute of Technology
References: <1993Aug25.2...@Cadence.COM> <1993Aug26....@sequent.com> <mblum.7...@berry.cs.brandeis.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 93 22:14:42 GMT
Lines: 42
I just have to put by $.02 worth in about joint custody schedules.
We've been doing this for 8 years (from the time she was about 6 months old)
so I have a little experience.
As an infant she spent 3 hours a day 3 days a week with her dad. This
was gradually increased to out current schedule of Tuesday, Wednesday
and alternate weekends at Dad's.
A couple of points. We live about 8 blocks from each other -- in the
same school district. So she can easily go to and from school at
either house. We purposely bought houses to facilitate this. She
has the same set of friends at both houses, i.e. Dad's house friends
are welcome at my house and vice versa. There is no packing. She
has two bedrooms, two sets of clothes, etc. We return only
clean clothes. In other words, when she changes, her dirty clothes
get laundered at the house she was in when she took them off.
About once a month we make an effort to get them back to the
house that bought them. She decides at which house her toys belong.
Usually she keeps them wherever they were bought, but not always.
Since we live so close, if something she wants or needs is at the
wrong house, she just calls and somehow she gets it. (With four
parents and an easy bike ride this isn't really an issue).
She never seems to be confused about where she should be. In fact,
the only time she seems to have problems is after a vacation with one
or the other family. Then it takes about a week for her to get
re-oriented. Not only is she not confused about her schedule, but
neither are any of her friends or teachers. Party invitations
always seem to go to the house that she'll be in on the day of
the party, her friends never call my house on a Dad's house day, etc.
I think a lot of this has to do with our attitudes about this. We
all think this is a perfectly normal, healthy schedule and so does
she.
As always, the above is just my opinion.
From dove!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!candau Tue Aug 31 08:12:45 1993
Xref: dove alt.support.step-parents:453 soc.men:44227 soc.women:40654 alt.dads-rights:5604 alt.child-support:7644
Newsgroups: alt.support.step-parents,soc.men,soc.women,alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support
Path: dove!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!portal.austin.ibm.com!awdprime.austin.ibm.com!candau
From: can...@austin.ibm.com (Rob Candau)
Subject: Visitation Schedules (Was Re: Mediation
Originator: can...@juran.austin.ibm.com
Sender: ne...@austin.ibm.com (News id)
Message-ID: <CCLE3...@austin.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 21:52:17 GMT
Reply-To: can...@austin.ibm.com
References: <CCFpx...@unx.sas.com> <CCHtq...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> <CCJ7...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> <CCJun...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations and Systems, Austin Tx
Lines: 93
In article <CCJun...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, gar...@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (David Garrod) writes:
> In article <CCJ7...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM> el...@NeoSoft.com (Ellyn Mustard) writes:
> >In article <CCHtq...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> gar...@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (David Garrod) writes:
> >>In article <CCFpx...@unx.sas.com> ca...@cherokee.unx.sas.com (Claire Cates) writes:
> >>>
> >>>In article <CCE0A...@austin.ibm.com>, can...@austin.ibm.com (Rob Candau) writes:
> >>>|>
> >>>|> Fran, I'd be interested in hearing some examples of visitation schedules
> >>>|> that you feel do work with your observations as to why they work. Thanks.
> >>> There doesn't need to
> >>>be a fixed rule of 50-50, just like there doesn't need a fixed rule
> >>>of letting one parent see the children just on alternate weekends.
> >>
> >> The alternate weekend approach, which is so common to a sole
> >>maternal custody with paternal visitation, has been shown to be
> >>inferior, ON AVERAGE (from the children`s point of view), by the
> >>great majority of the studies.
> >
> >My ex and I do the alternate weekend thing, but it starts on Thursday
> >night, instead of Saturday. That gives him an extra two days, plus he gets
> >a couple of week nights in which to get involved in school work, and
> >regular week activities. He takes them out to dinner on Tuesday nights,
> >and brings them home at 8:00 pm.
> >
> >> When research shows over 10-15 years, in a ratio of about 5:1,
> >>against sole custody and in favor of joint custody, there comes a
> >>time when society must adjust. I do not particularly care whether
> >>the visitation schedule is convenient for the parents. I care very
> >>much whether it is appropriate for the children. In my opinion,
> >>the parents owe it to the children to give them the most appropriate
> >>schedule for them (the children).
> >>
> >
> >Oh please, don't say that it can't be convenient for the parents. ANYTHING
>
> I did not say it can`t be convenient for the parents.
> I did say the parents owe it to the children to give them the most
> appropriate schedule.
>
> >that makes cooperation possible between the parents has just got to be helpful.
> >
> >Even if the schedule isn't optimum for the kids, if the parents are happy and
> >cooperative then the children will benefit. We used to do 2 week splits, but
> >neither the kids nor I liked it. Dad wasn't happy about the rearrangement,
> >but he recognized that he needed to be flexible, and he was ultimately
> >willing to take less. WE do now split the summer 50/50, and the kids think
> >that is still too much time over at his house, but I am convinced that
> >Dad's feelings have got to be considered, even if they think he is boring,
> >and unfair to them. How will their relationship get better if they don't
>
> What is best for the kids is NOT necessarily what they want or what
> they (the kids) feel is best for them.
>
> I am sure lots of kids who have experienced a sole custody arrangement
> fell that that is best for them and that that is what they want.
> I am sure lots of kids after a sole custody arrangement feel that
> they don`t want to see their father at all.
> However, it has been repeatedly shown that is very important to
> have BOTH parents involved in the child`s life, and most important
> not to be omitted is the parent of the same sex as the child.
>
> >
I agree with several of the points made here. The "Every other weekend"
visitation schedule benefits no one especially not the children. A key
point David makes here regarding what is best for the kids is not
necessarily what they want or feel is best for them, makes sense to me.
Many a time I make decisions as a parent that are not "The popular choice"
in the household, but am doing so in the best interest of my child. The
point of happy/cooperative parents benefiting the children is a very
good one indeed. These philosophies behind what constitutes the best
visitation arrangment are important and informative, but leave me curious
as to what works in real life for y'all. My own arrangement is alternating
one week periods with my 3 year old son. This seems to be working better
than shorter more frequent shifting back and forth, not only for him but
also for my X and I. The only tough part I've found is what I call the
transition day, which is the first day he's back at either place, his
behavior is a little less desirable, but returns to himself the following
day. As I've found one of the best ways to learn is from others experiences,
what have others of you out in netland found to work for you?
I know that there is no one formula that can apply to all situations. There
must be many different arrangements people have made that work for them. I would be curious to hear about some of the not-so-standard visitation
schedules others have seen/experienced. If for anything to possibly learn
from these examples and maybe pass on this information so that others may
learn too. This is one way of changing society's views by sharing and
educating others on this subject.
--
Rob Candau Internet: can...@austin.ibm.com
IBM Corporation, AWS - AIX Quality Management, Austin, Texas
Phone: (512) 838-2454 Tie-Line 678 VNET: CANDAU at AUSVM6
** Opinions expressed are my own......NOT IBM's **
From dove!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!purdue!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu!garrod Thu Sep 9 08:07:07 1993
Xref: dove alt.dads-rights:5728 alt.child-support:7737 alt.support.step-parents:505 soc.men:44485 soc.women:40915 misc.legal:42969 sci.psychology:9075
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,alt.support.step-parents,soc.men,soc.women,misc.legal,sci.psychology
Path: dove!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!purdue!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu!garrod
From: gar...@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (David Garrod)
Subject: Re: Mediation - An Idea Whose Time Has Come
Message-ID: <CD1n0...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>
Sender: ne...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu (USENET news)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
References: <JAC.93Au...@golf.cis.ohio-state.edu> <CCBpA...@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> <26kusb$1...@news.u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 1993 16:26:44 GMT
Lines: 72
In article <26kusb$1...@news.u.washington.edu> sc...@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Scott Goehring) writes:
>
>What I'm wondering is if any of these studies take into account the
>fact that the sort of divorce that results in a sole custody
>determination is more likely to have already harmed the child, and in
>fact any statistical finding that children in sole custody are "worse
>off" than children in joint custody may be that way because of events
>that happened prior to the severance of the noncustodial parent's
>rights. This sort of confounding factor situation plagues all-too-many
>statistical studies.
I can recall reading at least one study which stated a conclusion that
joint custody between non-cooperative parents resulted in better-
adjusted children on average than sole custody.
>
>I'll note that in my parent's divorce my mother was assigned sole
>custody but my brother and I lived with my father as much as with my
>mother. Curiously enough, I find I cannot stand my father anymore; my
>brother seems to have recently come to this conclusion as well.
>
You don`t have to like the person to gain benefit from the role model
represented by that person. I hope, however, you do not consider
(on the basis of one sample) that all children cannot stand their
fathers or that fathers cannot make good parents. That is what you
seem to be implying.
>
>Has anybody ever done a study of the PARENTS in custody cases? After
>reading thru the brief summary of the studies provided I can't rule out
>the possibility that parents that are the sort to demand sole custody
>are more likely to be harmful to their children than parents willing to
>negotiate joint custody. I have doubts that the former type of parents
I disagree. Many parents are motivated primarily by financial
considerations in requesting sole custody, something which has little
correlation with parenting ability.
>would be any better for their kids if they were forced to manage some
>sort of joint custody. Then again there are a lot of cases where
>neither parent is fit and the court generally assigns the kids to
>whomever it feels is least unfit, instead of assigning them to some fit
>person who happens not to be one of the children's parents, which IMHO
>makes a hell of a lot more sense.
There are such things as parental rights!
However, it is interesting that a court in Virginia has just placed a child
with the grandmother rather than a lesbian mother, on the grounds
that the mother had an inappropriate lifestyle in which to raise a
child!
>
>The other situation where sole custody is more likely is when the other
>parent has been actively abusive, and it does not surprise me that the
>children in such cases are less functional; abuse victims generally are
>less functional. However, this does not mean that placing the abusive
>parent in a custodial position is at all a good idea, just becuase some
>statistical study that doesn't take this factor into account says that
>joint custody is better.
>
Given that various studies have shown children to be abused more
often by their mothers than their fathers, this comment strikes me
as somewhat strange in fact.
(Given that the majority of sole custody is with the mother.)
I agree that children should not be placed with abusive parents.
I believe, however, joint custody protects children (unless previous
abuse is known) better than sole custody. With sole custody the
non-custodial parent has little opportunity to act as a watch-dog.
With joint custody the non-abusing parent can and should report
abuse and become the sole custodial parent if abuse is proven.
From dove!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!walter.cray.com!daw Mon Oct 4 08:11:53 1993
Xref: dove alt.dads-rights:6262 sci.psychology:9434
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,sci.psychology
Path: dove!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!walter.cray.com!daw
From: d...@cray.com (Dave Wright)
Subject: Re: siblings and joint custody
Message-ID: <1993Oct1.1...@walter.cray.com>
Lines: 35
Nntp-Posting-Host: nothing.cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
References: <200315Z...@anon.penet.fi>
Date: 1 Oct 93 10:49:51 CDT
In article <200315Z...@anon.penet.fi> an3...@anon.penet.fi writes:
>I have read several books that say joint custody on an alternating
>week schedule is good for kids 5 and over, but that 2 year olds should
>have a primary residence. All of these recommendations seem to be
>talking about kids in isolation, i.e., as if the 2 year old is an only
>child. If the 2 yr old has older siblings who alternate, then shouldn't
>she alternate with them? If she has two siblings, then she always has 3/4
>of her family with her when she alternates. But if she stays with one
>parent, then half of her family members go away when the siblings
>alternate. It seems that there would be more emotional security for the
>2 year old to always be with a parent and siblings, rather than stay
>with one parent. This assumes that care is taken to ensure that the
>2 yr old sees the non-resident parent every two days or so, as I believe
>is currently recommended.
>
>What is the current thinking on how to handle 2 year olds with siblings
>in joint custody? I am more interested in empirical research than in
>opinions, but any input is welcome.
My son will be six in Jan 94, from 2 when divorce was filed until this summer
he lived with me a split week. He has a 13 year old half sister that I do not
have visititation with. From Aug 90 until July 93, I had him from 5pm Thurs to
12noon Sunday and a Tuesday 5-8pm visit. I had been his primary care provider
until This summer when I lost. Now I have him From 5pm Thurs to Tues 7pm every
other week, ie rotating. The security comes from many factors including all
relationships.
The key thing was as close to equal overnights as possible, as few exchanges as possible,
and live in the same school district so the kids can have two homes, not a split
home. My son is separated from his half sister because I am not her father and
have no visiting rights. My son has done quite well, ie exceptional because he
is loved in both homes.
I personally agree that the 2 year old should move with siblings if they interact well.
Through Parents Without Partners, I have met
John Red-Horse
>
>Interesting you say that it is becoming the norm these days, as
>my BIL is working with a lawyer right now who tells him that
>there were lots of 50/50 arrangements, but that it is NOT the
>norm any more, as they don't seem to take the best interest
>of the child into consideration.
>
I'm not sure what you mean here. I have been sharing custody of my 2-1/2
year old daughter 50/50 with my X2B for six months. By all accounts she
is perfectly well adjusted.
When people (always women) ask me if I think that its in her best
interest, I tell them that what *really* is in her best interest is to
have a two loving parents in one home. Everything else is not in her
*best* interest. But given the facts of life, as nonoptimal situations
go, both my wife and I feel that its in her best interest to have two
loving parents in two homes.
>I would be very reluctant to have a hired driver drive a child
>every day, every other week. I would not be comfortable with
>that situation at all, and I can't believe it is in the child's
>best interest to have a "driver" pick him up from school, communicate
>with the daycare about the day's activities, etc.
I agree with this sentiment.
>
>Also realize that once regular school starts, this 50/50 arrangement
>would probably again not be in the best interest of the child.
>
There you go again.
>
>Good luck. My stepdaughter spent about 2-3 years in therapy beginning
>when she was 4, and another year when she was 10. There are a lot of
>additional circumstances (mother is manic/depressive, recovering alcoholic
>who basically abandoned her daughter through her continued drinking).
>You might want to find a therapist who has experience working with
>children. Our's helped my stepdaughter a great deal, and continues
>to do so.
>
Are you implying that this result was, in part, due to the feeling of
abandonment on the part of the child? If so, it absolutely conflicts
with your earlier comments on what's ``best for the child''.
hasta,
john