Circumcision

0 views
Skip to the first unread message

Magenta Margurite

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 18:37:5001/02/2001
to
I'm English, and I find it utterly amazing that it's taken so for granted in
America that boy babies are circumcised as a matter of routine, and that you
have to opt out in birth plans to avoid it.
I understand that some religions require this, but I cannot see what
possible reason there could be to do this otherwise.

Magenta.


Circe

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 19:07:4301/02/2001
to
In article <brme6.4583$LQ2....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
It is really not routine in the US any more to circumcize, especially
on the coasts. It may be more common in the interior parts of the
country, but here in California, boys are circumcized only on the
request of parents and it is completely unnecessary to state in one's
birth plan that one does not want circumcision, as no baby boy is ever
carted off for this procedure without parental consent.
--
Be well, Barbara (Julian [7/22/97] and Aurora's [7/19/99] mom)
Check out our website at http://dreamwater.net/guavaln


Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

Patti & David Folkerts

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 19:32:2701/02/2001
to
Circumcision dramatically reduces the boys' risk of penile cancer, urinary
tract infections, and other random infections as well. It is also
considered cleaner and easier to care for, although that alone would not be
sufficient reason. My uncle was not circumcised as a baby and HAD to be
circumcised as a teenager due to a severe and extremely painful infection
(which the doctors all agreed he would never had gotten had he been
circumcised in the first place). Therefore, for my family there was no
question. We insisted upon it.

--
patti
mom of 3 boys, 9-1-1 !!!


Rhonda

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 18:53:1201/02/2001
to
Thanks, I was just about to take a poll, now I don't have to :)

Magenta Margurite wrote:

--
If you think this is bad.. just remember, an elephant is pregnant for 645 days!
(that's 21 1/2 months!!)


SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 20:14:4101/02/2001
to
Rhonda said: >Thanks, I was just about to take a poll, now I don't have to
:)


What kind of poll exactly? (Curious now.)

Later, Sophie


Circe

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 19:55:0001/02/2001
to
In article <95cv8p$rrr$1...@newsflood.tokyo.att.ne.jp>,
Uh-oh, here we go...

Gwendolen

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 20:00:4201/02/2001
to
Well I promised not to get involved, but you're info is not necessarily
correct. I have three adult uncircumcised brothers who've never had any
problems and an uncircumcised son who has never even had a diaper rash. I
know I'm going to regret this but should we remove everyone's appendix in
case it needs removing later?

And wait before I get flamed I think it's a personal decision, I am not,
repeat am not, judging anyone who has opted for circumcision. I just get
tired of these endless arguments which I realize I have just contributed to.
Please excuse me, my due date is tomorrow and I'm rather irritable. : )

Gwendolen

"Patti & David Folkerts" <patt...@yta.attmil.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:95cv8p$rrr$1...@newsflood.tokyo.att.ne.jp...

ellen

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 20:01:5301/02/2001
to
There seems to be a trend away from doing this now. I attended a pre-natal
lecture not too long ago and the pediatrician said that nationally only about
60% of boys are circumcised, but in the area where I live (New England) about
80% still are. I'm not sure if it's really "routine" any more here, I think
you have to request it.

My mother is an R.N. and she once said that following WWII, there was a big
push to circumcise all newborn boys in this country so that they would all look
alike. Apparently the Nazis used to look to see if a man was circumcised to
determine whether or not he was Jewish. There was a lot of hysteria here during
the cold war. I've never read or heard this anyplace else, so I don't know if
it's true, but then again I haven't really researched the topic much either.

-Ellen
(edd 3/24/01)


j47

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 19:53:5501/02/2001
to
Magenta Margurite wrote in message ...

Well, once it was a social custom in Britain to circ about 30% of newborn males.
Then rational thinking prevailed in the early 1950's. The circ rate is now
falling in the US as well. Circing newborn boys is certainly a disgusting bad
habit.

Ellis Bell

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 20:08:0501/02/2001
to

"Circe" <gua...@my-deja.com> wrote in message

> >
> Uh-oh, here we go...
> --

Maybe someone shout start a misc.kids.circumcision ng, or an alt
one for all this discussion, or is there one already??


--
Andrea
Mum of 9 to...
Rhys (12), Jayden (11), Tessa (9), Tyler (8),
Paige (6), Grace (5), Zachary (3), Rose and Amelia (16mths) and
Angel baby (1/01)

"Welcome to this Place I'll show you everything with arms wide
open"....Creed


iphigenia

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 20:53:0501/02/2001
to
"ellen" <e...@poetic.com> wrote:
:
: My mother is an R.N. and she once said that following WWII, there was a

big
: push to circumcise all newborn boys in this country so that they would all
look
: alike. Apparently the Nazis used to look to see if a man was circumcised
to
: determine whether or not he was Jewish. There was a lot of hysteria here
during
: the cold war. I've never read or heard this anyplace else, so I don't know
if
: it's true, but then again I haven't really researched the topic much
either.

Yes, but why would the US be worried about that after the war ended?

I've read that circumcision was promoted as it was thought to discourage
masturbation.

--
iphigenia
be my voice in my midnight meditation...
when I wake, be my heart's flotation.

SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 21:23:1301/02/2001
to
>Please excuse me, my due date is tomorrow and I'm rather irritable. : )
>Gwendolen


No way!! Since it's not in your sig line I actually never knew when you
were due. I didn't realize it was now! Lol.

Can't wait for the birth story. :)

Later, Sophie


Michelle in Canada

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 21:22:3001/02/2001
to

Magenta Margurite <magenta.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:brme6.4583$LQ2....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...


While circ. may be quite common here...by no means do you "have to opt out
in births plans"!!! By reading some of the recent threads I think you've
been sort of misled. Doctors will NOT come into your room, grab your son
and go cut his foreskin off if you forget to mention it in your birth plan
LOL!!!

The reason for it in the birth plan is rather to designate who will be with
the baby...and whether or not meds are used!!!

--
Michelle in Canada mom to:
Matthew(25/06/93)
Ryan(04/05/00)
and #3 EDD(17/07/01)


Michelle in Canada

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 21:23:1101/02/2001
to

Circe <gua...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:95d0h1$or2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> In article <95cv8p$rrr$1...@newsflood.tokyo.att.ne.jp>,
> "Patti & David Folkerts" <patt...@yta.attmil.ne.jp> wrote:
> > Circumcision dramatically reduces the boys' risk of penile cancer,
> urinary
> > tract infections, and other random infections as well. It is also
> > considered cleaner and easier to care for, although that alone would
> not be
> > sufficient reason. My uncle was not circumcised as a baby and HAD to
> be
> > circumcised as a teenager due to a severe and extremely painful
> infection
> > (which the doctors all agreed he would never had gotten had he been
> > circumcised in the first place). Therefore, for my family there was
> no
> > question. We insisted upon it.
> >
> Uh-oh, here we go...
> --


LOL Barbara...just what I was about to type!!!

Jkknfollett

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 21:46:4601/02/2001
to
>I've read that circumcision was promoted as it was thought to discourage
>masturbation.
>
>--
>iphigenia


He He -- Didn't work very well! :)

Kari
mom to Kaylie (5) and Noah (21mos)

Michelle in Canada

unread,
1 Feb 2001, 21:57:0101/02/2001
to

Jkknfollett <jkknf...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20010201214646...@ng-fk1.news.cs.com...

ROTFLMAO!!!! too funny Kari :)

michelle downunder

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 02:38:5002/02/2001
to
On Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:23:13 -0500, "SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee"
<fakea...@home.com> oracled :

;-)>Please excuse me, my due date is tomorrow and I'm rather irritable. : )
;-)>Gwendolen
;-)
;-)
;-)No way!! Since it's not in your sig line I actually never knew when you
;-)were due. I didn't realize it was now! Lol.
;-)
;-)Can't wait for the birth story. :)
;-)
;-)Later, Sophie
;-)

Gwendolen.... can you please email me...

Tatjana (Germany)

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 07:15:5502/02/2001
to

ellen <e...@poetic.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
3A7A0874...@poetic.com...

It is true.
Jews that were found hiding out somewhere and who claimed upon arrest that
they weren't Jewish, would have their pants pulled down for checking. If
they were indeed circumcised, they would have had no chance whatsoever -
circumcision is not and has never been done in Germany except for medical
indications, such as phimosis.

Tatjana


Tatjana (Germany)

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 07:22:1302/02/2001
to

Patti & David Folkerts <patt...@yta.attmil.ne.jp> schrieb in im
Newsbeitrag: 95cv8p$rrr$1...@newsflood.tokyo.att.ne.jp...

Don't flame me, I'll try to stay on fact.
Yes, it reduces the risk of penile cancer. A minuscule risk. But I do
understand that you want to shelter your kid from every possible risk even
if it might be blown out of proportion. I have *never* heard of a case of
penile cancer - be it media or my personal environment. Yes, it does exist
no doubt, but it no doubt is so rare that it is not recommended here because
of all the *possible* side effects of circs.
My brother had to have a partial circumcision due to phimosis and my df was
unfortunately circ'ed at his Bris (he's Jewish). He's one of those who have
problems due to it, mainly a loss of sensation in the tip (it dries out
without protection from the foreskin) that can only be helped in water, and
quite an amount of infections due to skin cracks. But then, YMMV, of course.

Tatjana
(whose Jewish boys will stay intact)

iphigenia

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 09:26:0902/02/2001
to
"Tatjana (Germany)" wrote::
: It is true.

: Jews that were found hiding out somewhere and who claimed upon arrest that
: they weren't Jewish, would have their pants pulled down for checking. If
: they were indeed circumcised, they would have had no chance whatsoever -
: circumcision is not and has never been done in Germany except for medical
: indications, such as phimosis.

It's well known that this was a common practice for identifying Jews in Nazi
Germany, but I still don't see why that would translate to an American
post-war surge in circing...

iphigenia

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 09:29:2902/02/2001
to
"Jkknfollett" wrote...
: >I've read that circumcision was promoted as it was thought to discourage
: >masturbation.
:
:
: He He -- Didn't work very well! :)
:

Oh, well, that's what I thought too "yeah, that'll stop 'em"

Apparently though, having a foreskin that had to be handled for cleaning
would encourage, uh, recreational handling.
I don't know if they thought that circed guys wouldn't touch their penises
in the bath or what.

ellen

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 11:03:1002/02/2001
to
iphigenia wrote:

> "ellen" <e...@poetic.com> wrote:
> :
> : My mother is an R.N. and she once said that following WWII, there was a
> big
> : push to circumcise all newborn boys in this country so that they would all
> look
> : alike. Apparently the Nazis used to look to see if a man was circumcised
> to
> : determine whether or not he was Jewish. There was a lot of hysteria here
> during
> : the cold war. I've never read or heard this anyplace else, so I don't know
> if
> : it's true, but then again I haven't really researched the topic much
> either.
>
> Yes, but why would the US be worried about that after the war ended?
>

Because once WWII ended the "Cold War," marked by suspicion and fear, began.
People were very afraid that something similar to the holocaust could happen
here. Circumcising everyone was just one manifestation of this fear.

-Ellen

Gwendolen

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 11:05:3402/02/2001
to
Hey Sophie, I'm piggybacking 'cause I can't see your message. Yes it is now
officially today and I hope it's soon 'cause dh works out of town and he's
here for the next few days so think happy labour thoughts.

Michelle, I just emailed you back!

Gwendolen
DUE TODAY!!!!!

"michelle downunder" <shel...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:svok7tkvufh1md8rs...@4ax.com...

Rhonda

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 12:44:1902/02/2001
to
I was kidding, actually.. I was just being sarcastic, as I would never be brave
enough to just fuel such a controversial topic such as circumcision in the way
that post was written.. (which is obviously going to get people going.. )

As circe so eloquently stated: "uh oh.. here we go" :)

Rhonda


Rhonda
Likes to stay away from stay at home, circumcision, homeschool, daycare and
breastfeeding debates

--

SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 14:17:1002/02/2001
to
Rhonda,

Oh okay. I just thought you were gonna ask who had it done to their sons or
something. We had Patrick done and will have any future sons done. I don't
blame you for staying away from those topics. Geez. Lol.

Later, Sophie


SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 14:18:4802/02/2001
to
Gwendolen said: >Hey Sophie, I'm piggybacking 'cause I can't see your

message. Yes it >is now
>officially today and I hope it's soon 'cause dh works out of town and he's
>here for the next few days so think happy labour thoughts.

Uh oh. Okay. Sending labor vibes your way!! :)

Later, Sophie


Joanna Kimball

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 15:08:4302/02/2001
to

Michelle wrote:


>
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2001 23:37:50 -0000, "Magenta Margurite"
> <magenta.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm English, and I find it utterly amazing that it's taken so for granted in
> >America that boy babies are circumcised as a matter of routine, and that you
> >have to opt out in birth plans to avoid it.
>

> I hope Magenta isn't just another troll ... anyway, you're not
> exactly correct. You don't necessarily have to opt out in order
> to avoid it. These days, you have to consent to it in advance.
> And it is less common than it used to be.


>
> >I understand that some religions require this, but I cannot see what
> >possible reason there could be to do this otherwise.
>

> Whether you can see it or not, there are one or two possible
> reasons. You don't have to agree with them, but there are
> reasons.

And PLEASE let that be the last post on it... please? Please?

Joanna
Meriwether, 3
Honour, 2

cv123

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 15:10:1602/02/2001
to
Personal decison my ass. its mutilation, how would you like having the hood
of your clitoris chopped off? sound like fun? i didnt think so, as far as
hygenie is concerned that was disproven years ago... try reading Say no to
Circumsion, 40 compelling reasons. Besides relgious reasons, males should be
free to grow up and decide for themselves if they wish a healthy normal part
of their penis removed.
"Gwendolen" <gwend...@home.com> wrote in message
news:_Ene6.55714$K8.26...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...

Gwendolen

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 15:30:0602/02/2001
to
Thanks! : )

Gwendolen

"SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee" <fakea...@home.com> wrote in message
news:t7m11oi...@corp.supernews.com...

JenniRoa

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 16:13:0802/02/2001
to
>
>America that boy babies are circumcised as a matter of routine, and that you
>have to opt out in birth plans to avoid it.

This was not my experience at all. I was provided with the information (pro
and con) of circumcision and was asked to make a choice. It was not assumed
that we would do it at all.

Jenni

Larry McMahan

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 12:40:1302/02/2001
to
Patti & David Folkerts <patt...@yta.attmil.ne.jp> writes:

: Circumcision dramatically reduces the boys' risk of penile cancer, urinary


: tract infections, and other random infections as well.

This is an absolute lie, totally unsupported by the medical evidence.
There is a small decrease in UTIs, but the other "dramatic reductions"
simply do not exist. The slightly higher rate of UTIs for intect
babies could be caused by improper cleaning methods (retraction of
the foreskin). This needs further research.

: It is also


: considered cleaner and easier to care for, although that alone would not be
: sufficient reason.

As I stated above, this is primarily because parents of intect babies are
taught improper cleaning methods.

: My uncle was not circumcised as a baby and HAD to be


: circumcised as a teenager due to a severe and extremely painful infection
: (which the doctors all agreed he would never had gotten had he been
: circumcised in the first place).

There is an occasional need for a circumcision, but not enough to justify
it as a routine infant procedure.

: circumcised in the first place). Therefore, for my family there was no


: question. We insisted upon it.

That is something you have a right to do. But the reasons you give
above are misleading and are not compelling reasons for recommending
it as a general public health policy.

: --


: patti
: mom of 3 boys, 9-1-1 !!!

I predict that this thread will erupt into one of the typical
circ flame wars which have been absent from mkp for a long time.

Larry

Rhonda

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 15:37:2502/02/2001
to
Yeah.. I am not against it either.. :) I think alot of things are personal
choice... too bad we just can't all get along.. haha

"SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee" wrote:

--

sue...@my-deja.com

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 17:14:1502/02/2001
to
In article <brme6.4583$LQ2....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,

"Magenta Margurite" <magenta.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I'm English, and I find it utterly amazing that it's taken so for
granted in America that boy babies are circumcised as a matter of

routine, and that you have to opt out in birth plans to avoid it.
> I understand that some religions require this, but I cannot see what
> possible reason there could be to do this otherwise.
>
> Magenta.
>
> "Troll, troll, troll, troll"
everybody sing along with me now.....


Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

Helen Arias

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 17:52:2902/02/2001
to
}>America that boy babies are circumcised as a matter of routine, and that you
}>have to opt out in birth plans to avoid it.

Well, not quite. Circumcision in the U.S., is considered by many,
to be "routine" (RIC). However, a circumcision cannot be performed
without the written consent of the parent.

H.

Rhonda

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 17:50:4602/02/2001
to
What irritates me more then the discussion happening, is the original poster didn't
even stick around for the aftermath.. I mean, maybe she's not a troll, but she
might as well be - stir it up.. then take off.. just like a troll.

Rhonda


Joanna Kimball wrote:

> snip


>
> And PLEASE let that be the last post on it... please? Please?
>
> Joanna
> Meriwether, 3
> Honour, 2

--

j47

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 20:36:1102/02/2001
to
ellen wrote in message <3A7ADBB2...@poetic.com>...

>iphigenia wrote:
>
>> "ellen" <e...@poetic.com> wrote:
>> :
>> : My mother is an R.N. and she once said that following WWII, there was a big
>> : push to circumcise all newborn boys in this country so that they would all look
>> : alike. Apparently the Nazis used to look to see if a man was circumcised to
>> : determine whether or not he was Jewish. There was a lot of hysteria here during
>> : the cold war. I've never read or heard this anyplace else, so I don't know if
>> : it's true, but then again I haven't really researched the topic much either.
>>
>> Yes, but why would the US be worried about that after the war ended?
>>
>Because once WWII ended the "Cold War," marked by suspicion and fear, began.
>People were very afraid that something similar to the holocaust could happen
>here. Circumcising everyone was just one manifestation of this fear.
>
>-Ellen

Because most of the OBs were Jewish?
http://www.apfmed.org/chevra/jewishmd.htm

Magenta Margurite

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 20:53:2702/02/2001
to

"Michelle" <any...@anywhere.us> wrote in message
news:00kk7tohof7tosu7s...@4ax.com...

> I hope Magenta isn't just another troll ... anyway, you're not
> exactly correct. You don't necessarily have to opt out in order
> to avoid it. These days, you have to consent to it in advance.
> And it is less common than it used to be.

No, I'm not a Troll, I just had never realised that so many American boys
were circumcised as a matter of routine, I'm actually a Nurse, so I see a
lot of penises, but Ive only ever seen one that's been circumcised in about
10 years, and it's only rarely I've come accross problems, usually in older
men who are unable to care for their own hygene. Even then, this can usually
be solved by improving their hygene or antibiotics.
To me 60% seems a huge proportion.
The midwife gave me a standard book which is given to all pregnant women
here, with information on everything from conception to bathing, and there
is no mention of circumcision at all, it's not even an issue.

Magenta.

Magenta Margurite

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 21:02:5302/02/2001
to

<sue...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:95fbfd$pd8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <brme6.4583$LQ2....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,

> > "Troll, troll, troll, troll"
> everybody sing along with me now.....

Since when has it been Trolling to express an opinion?
It seems to me that some peoples definition of a troll includes anyone who
expresses a different opinion to their own.
I never expected a simple question would bring a response like this.

Magenta.

Larry McMahan

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 16:43:0002/02/2001
to
Rhonda <ron...@yahoo.com> writes:

: Rhonda


: Likes to stay away from stay at home, circumcision, homeschool, daycare and
: breastfeeding debates

Then why do you post here. :-)

Larry

Magenta Margurite

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 21:23:4302/02/2001
to

"Magenta Margurite" <magenta.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:brme6.4583$LQ2....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...

> I'm English, and I find it utterly amazing that it's taken so for granted
in
> America that boy babies are circumcised as a matter of routine, and that

you
> have to opt out in birth plans to avoid it.

Thank you to everyone who responded with useful information. I'm very glad
that parental permission is needed before a circumcision is carried out, I
was a little confused by it's inclusion in so many birth plans.
Although I'm still quite mystified that so many parents feel it's necessary,
and also that so many people feel so defensive about it. I merely wondered
these parents and their doctors percived as reasons for circumcision as a
routine.
Obviously you have had this discussion before, is there an FAQ I could look
at to avoid further upset?

Magenta.

Magenta Margurite

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 21:37:2402/02/2001
to

"Rhonda" <ron...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3A7B39C6...@yahoo.com...

> What irritates me more then the discussion happening, is the original
poster didn't
> even stick around for the aftermath.. I mean, maybe she's not a troll,
but she
> might as well be - stir it up.. then take off.. just like a troll.

I posted the original message approximately 24 hours ago, maybe some people
here can sit by their computers all day, but sometimes it's two or three
days before I can get back to the newsgroups.

Magenta.


SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 22:17:3102/02/2001
to
>I never expected a simple question would bring a response like this.
>Magenta.

No question about circumcision is ever *simple*. Lol.

Later, Sophie


sue...@my-deja.com

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 22:12:4402/02/2001
to
In article <7FJe6.5090$Ee3.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,

Magenta wrote:
"in America that boy babies are circumcised as a matter of routine"

"that you have to opt out in birth plans to avoid it"

"I understand that some religions require this, but I cannot see what
possible reason there could be to do this otherwise"

What was your question? Why cross post to mkp AND alt.circ??
It is only ok in your opinion if for religious reasons? Resurecting a
much pounded highly charged issue? I dunno, sounds like trolling to me.
Maybe lurk more before you post.

Sue
AND you Don't know my opinion on this, breastfeeding or diapers

Magenta Margurite

unread,
2 Feb 2001, 23:01:5402/02/2001
to

<sue...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:95fsv8$7vj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> In article <7FJe6.5090$Ee3.1...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
> "Magenta Margurite" <magenta.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> > Since when has it been Trolling to express an opinion?
> > It seems to me that some peoples definition of a troll includes
> anyone who
> > expresses a different opinion to their own.
> > I never expected a simple question would bring a response like this.
> >
> > Magenta.

> What was your question? Why cross post to mkp AND alt.circ??

I didn't cross post. I didn't even know there was alt.circ.

> It is only ok in your opinion if for religious reasons?

That's a whole other issue I wasn't going to get into, there are a lot of
things which happen for religious reasons I don't agree with.

Resurecting a
> much pounded highly charged issue? I dunno, sounds like trolling to me.

I didn't realise it was so highly charged.

> Maybe lurk more before you post.

I have been lurking for weeks.

> Sue
> AND you Don't know my opinion on this, breastfeeding or diapers

Why would breastfeeding and 'Daipers' be highly charged issues? Even so,
what's wrong with discussing them?

Magenta.

Jenni T

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 01:27:0803/02/2001
to

SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee <fakea...@home.com> wrote in message
news:t7mt3eg...@corp.supernews.com...

That seems to be the OP's point - in the US it's a big issue, in the UK it's
just not an issue (except for some religious people).


--
Jenni T
mother of Gabriel (6), Casper (4) and Theo (Aug '00)
London, UK

Hugh Young

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 02:57:2103/02/2001
to
On Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:36:11 -0600, "j47" <j...@j47.net.invalid> said:

>ellen wrote in message <3A7ADBB2...@poetic.com>...
>>iphigenia wrote:
>>
>>> "ellen" <e...@poetic.com> wrote:
>>> :
>>> : My mother is an R.N. and she once said that following WWII, there was a big
>>> : push to circumcise all newborn boys in this country so that they would all look
>>> : alike. Apparently the Nazis used to look to see if a man was circumcised to
>>> : determine whether or not he was Jewish. There was a lot of hysteria here during
>>> : the cold war. I've never read or heard this anyplace else, so I don't know if
>>> : it's true, but then again I haven't really researched the topic much either.

Sounds like someone tried to find a rational explanation for US
circumcision mania - and failed yet again.

Remember, anti-Semitism was quite respectable until well after the war
and the full horror of the Holocaust was known (remember that ship
full of Jews that couldn't find anywhere to land?). So it's hardly
likely that circumcision to protect Jews would ever have got a
foothold.

>>> Yes, but why would the US be worried about that after the war ended?
>>>
>>Because once WWII ended the "Cold War," marked by suspicion and fear, began.
>>People were very afraid that something similar to the holocaust could happen
>>here. Circumcising everyone was just one manifestation of this fear.

Just ONE Jewish woman is on record as suggesting universal c. to
protect Jews, but that was within the last couple of decades or so,
not right after the war, and nobody seems to have agreed with her.

Still, you are right that Cold War suspicion, fear AND THE CONFORMITY
THEY ENGENDERED, could have had something to do with the post-war
passion to circumcise.
--
Hugh Young, Pukerua Bay, Nuclear-free Aotearoa / New Zealand
Intactivism at http://www.circumstitions.com
"A voice from heaven should be ignored if it is not on the side of justice." - Isaac Bashevis Singer

Magenta Margurite

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 09:58:2403/02/2001
to

"Michelle" <any...@anywhere.us> wrote in message
news:751n7t4rj81a3tui9...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 03:12:44 GMT, sue...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >What was your question? Why cross post to mkp AND alt.circ??
> >It is only ok in your opinion if for religious reasons? Resurecting a
> >much pounded highly charged issue? I dunno, sounds like trolling to me.
> >Maybe lurk more before you post.
> >
> >Sue
> >AND you Don't know my opinion on this, breastfeeding or diapers
>
> Interesting! I hadn't noticed that the original post was
> cross-posted to alt.circ. Is that a real newsgroup? If it is,
> I'll bet the post was more like FROM alt.circ than just
> cross-posted to alt.circ.

I repeat, I did not cross post. If any of you had bothered to look as I just
did, you would have seen that the message was cross posted later by j47, at
00.53 02/02/01.

Magenta.


Magenta Margurite

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 09:59:5803/02/2001
to

"Jenni T" <nosp...@jennit.co.uk> wrote in message
news:95g8gb$gpj5r$1...@ID-30007.news.dfncis.de...

>
> SSgt. Dylan W. McGehee <fakea...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:t7mt3eg...@corp.supernews.com...
> > >I never expected a simple question would bring a response like this.
> > >Magenta.
> >
> > No question about circumcision is ever *simple*. Lol.
> >
> > Later, Sophie
> >
> >
>
> That seems to be the OP's point - in the US it's a big issue, in the UK
it's
> just not an issue (except for some religious people).

Pretty much, yes.

Magenta.


Magenta Margurite

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 10:03:2803/02/2001
to

"Michelle" <any...@anywhere.us> wrote in message
news:ga1n7to0knklhnov9...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:23:43 -0000, "Magenta Margurite"
> <magenta.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >Although I'm still quite mystified that so many parents feel it's
necessary,
>
> What makes you think that they feel it's necessary? Maybe they
> just think that it's a good idea.

If it's not necessary, then why is it such a 'Good Idea'?
why not just leave it as nature intended?

Magenta.


j47

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 10:23:4803/02/2001
to
Michelle wrote in message ...

>On Sat, 3 Feb 2001 02:23:43 -0000, "Magenta Margurite"
><magenta.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>Although I'm still quite mystified that so many parents feel it's
necessary,
>
>What makes you think that they feel it's necessary? Maybe they
>just think that it's a good idea.

Or maybe most parents know nothing about it but assume its necessary
because they are asked to consent to it.

Ruthie

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 10:35:2803/02/2001
to

> If it's not necessary, then why is it such a 'Good Idea'?
> why not just leave it as nature intended?
>
> Magenta.

So....nature intended my mom to get breast cancer. Should she have let it
kill her so as not to disturb its intentions?

--
Ruthie, proud momma of Rachel, 1-22-98, and ??????, EDD 9-10-01

Dave

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 10:56:2303/02/2001
to
Tatjana (Germany) (yanata...@yahoo.com) wrote:

: Patti & David Folkerts <patt...@yta.attmil.ne.jp> schrieb in im
: Newsbeitrag: 95cv8p$rrr$1...@newsflood.tokyo.att.ne.jp...


: > Circumcision dramatically reduces the boys' risk of penile cancer, urinary

: > tract infections, and other random infections as well. It is also


: > considered cleaner and easier to care for, although that alone would not
: be

: > sufficient reason. My uncle was not circumcised as a baby and HAD to be


: > circumcised as a teenager due to a severe and extremely painful infection
: > (which the doctors all agreed he would never had gotten had he been

: > circumcised in the first place). Therefore, for my family there was no
: > question. We insisted upon it.

: Don't flame me, I'll try to stay on fact.
: Yes, it reduces the risk of penile cancer. A minuscule risk. But I do
: understand that you want to shelter your kid from every possible risk even
: if it might be blown out of proportion. I have *never* heard of a case of
: penile cancer - be it media or my personal environment. Yes, it does exist
: no doubt, but it no doubt is so rare that it is not recommended here because
: of all the *possible* side effects of circs.

Penile cancer occurs mainly among indigent men who do not follow normal
hygeine practices.

: My brother had to have a partial circumcision due to phimosis and my df was
: unfortunately circ'ed at his Bris (he's Jewish). He's one of those who have
: problems due to it, mainly a loss of sensation in the tip (it dries out
: without protection from the foreskin) that can only be helped in water, and
: quite an amount of infections due to skin cracks. But then, YMMV, of course.

One of the main reasons that we chose not to circ is that during the early
months of life the baby's relatively immature brain is developing, and we
didn't want pain to be one of the first neural pathways laid down. Many
mothers post their sons are asleep when they return from their circ. Some
experts state that's due to shock. I can't imagine removing the part of a
boy's body that has the most nerve endings per square inch just because
<insert common reasons here>.

Also, the risk of urinary tract infections among intact boys is about the same
as for a girl. It's not like it's some astromonical figure. Or should we start
doing labial surgery on all our newborn girls, too? (Or would it be clitoral
hood?) We do a strange ritual to prevent uti's called a bath. Oh, and we avoid
high sugar diet and drink enough pure (as we can get anyway; heh-heh ;-) water.

: (whose Jewish boys will stay intact)

My husband is Jewish, and there's no way he'd let anyone do that do our son.
(or sons if we we were fortunate to have another)
--
Colette (posting from Dave's acct.)

Dave

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 10:58:5503/02/2001
to
iphigenia (preter...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: "Jkknfollett" wrote...
: : >I've read that circumcision was promoted as it was thought to discourage
: : >masturbation.
: :
: :
: : He He -- Didn't work very well! :)
: :

: Oh, well, that's what I thought too "yeah, that'll stop 'em"

: Apparently though, having a foreskin that had to be handled for cleaning
: would encourage, uh, recreational handling.
: I don't know if they thought that circed guys wouldn't touch their penises
: in the bath or what.

Actually, though, the opposite is found to be true. Due too lack of
sensitivity, males with amputated foreskins tend to do it more and require
rougher stimulation b/c they are missing the same amount of foreskin, as an
adult, as a 3 X5 card. (This is doulbe sking, so fold the card lengthwise, and
you'll see what I mean. And of course that's an average.

Magenta Margurite

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 11:57:0903/02/2001
to

"Ruthie" <journ...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4zVe6.159849$ge4.56...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...

>
> > If it's not necessary, then why is it such a 'Good Idea'?
> > why not just leave it as nature intended?
> >
> > Magenta.
>
> So....nature intended my mom to get breast cancer. Should she have let it
> kill her so as not to disturb its intentions?

So, you think she should have had her breasts removed as a teenager to
prevent it?

Magenta.


Michelle

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 11:59:0003/02/2001
to
On 3 Feb 2001 15:58:55 GMT, lnrp...@ripco.com (Dave) wrote:

>Actually, though, the opposite is found to be true. Due too lack of
>sensitivity, males with amputated foreskins tend to do it more and require
>rougher stimulation b/c they are missing the same amount of foreskin,

Actually, the study done by Lauman (sp?) which found that they
"do it more" didn't give a reason, so you are just making up that
part of it. I could make up a reason too: they do it more because
they enjoy it more, but I wouldn't go around spreading that
made-up reason like it was a fact like you did. Of course you
didn't bother to mention that the same study found that older
uncircumcised men experienced *more* sexual *dysfunction* than
circumcised men.

>as an adult, as a 3 X5 card. (This is doulbe sking, so fold the card lengthwise,
>and you'll see what I mean. And of course that's an average.

Oh sure it's an average. Not! That's an exaggeration.
Circumcision doesn't usually remove the whole foreskin.

Magenta Margurite

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 11:58:0303/02/2001
to

"j47" <j...@j47.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:AuVe6.136$Ni4....@nnrp1.sbc.net...

This is what worries me, I think this is very likely what happens.

Magenta.


Magenta Margurite

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 12:02:5703/02/2001
to

"Magenta Margurite" <magenta.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:uLWe6.12812$LQ2.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...

PS, I'm sorry your Mum got breast cancer:(

Magenta.


mar...@my-deja.com

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 12:32:4803/02/2001
to
Thing is Ruthie, penile cancer is very, very rare - in my country
(Canada), we have something like 100 cases a year in the entire country.
Urinary tract infections are usually no big deal either and MUCH more
rare in males than females, regardless of circumcision because of the
length of their urethras. Most women have had at least one in their lives
(I've had zillions), so I can't get my knickers too knotted up about my
sons having one. If they were having a chronic problem that circumcision
might fix, I might consider it - but so far, they are 10 and 7 and we've
never had a hint of a problem due to being intact.

Circumcising every boy to prevent UTIs or penile cancer is like killing a
ant with an atomic bomb. I mean, to prevent breast cancer in women,
should we remove the breasts of every girl? Do surgery on every girl to
fix her inherently poorly designed urethra so she won't get UTIs?

I figure if down the road something happens to my boys that makes
circumcision an idea to correct some medical concern, we'll cross the
bridge when we come to it - and hopefully, they will have some say in
what goes on.

Mary G.

Ruthie

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 12:58:5503/02/2001
to
I'm glad she didn't let nature take it's course. I really like having a
mother.

--
Ruthie, proud momma of Rachel, 1-22-98, and ??????, EDD 9-10-01

"Magenta Margurite" <magenta.m...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:uLWe6.12812$LQ2.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...

Ruthie

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 13:05:1603/02/2001
to
I don't remember saying anything about penile cancer. Luckily I have never
known anyone who had it (or if they did they didn't tell me). All I meant in
my post to Magenta was nature intends a lot of things that the majority of
us agree need to be fixed, helped, changed, cured.

--
Ruthie, proud momma of Rachel, 1-22-98, and ??????, EDD 9-10-01

<mar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:95hfc0$boa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

Michelle

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 16:28:0603/02/2001
to
On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 17:32:48 GMT, mar...@my-deja.com wrote:

>Thing is Ruthie, penile cancer is very, very rare - in my country
>(Canada), we have something like 100 cases a year in the entire country.

I did a lot of reading about this before our youngest was born.
From what I read, it's rare here in the U.S. too. Lot's more than
100 cases a year, though. More like 1500.

>Urinary tract infections are usually no big deal either and MUCH more
>rare in males than females, regardless of circumcision because of the
>length of their urethras.

From what I read, it depends on whether you're talking about
circumcised boys or uncircumcised boys. Uncircumcised boys have
just about as many urinary tract infections as girls. More at
some ages


>I figure if down the road something happens to my boys that makes
>circumcision an idea to correct some medical concern, we'll cross the
>bridge when we come to it - and hopefully, they will have some say in
>what goes on.

I used to feel that way too. I read all that stuff and got
completely turned off about circumcision. Our youngest son wasn't
circumcised (in spite of dad's wishes). Now he says he wishes he
had been because all his friends are. You can't win 'em all!

Magenta Margurite

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 20:26:4403/02/2001
to

"Ruthie" <journ...@home.com> wrote in message
news:zFXe6.160202$ge4.57...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...

> I'm glad she didn't let nature take it's course. I really like having a
> mother.

I'm beginning to think there's something wrong with your brain, how you can
think the two situations are comparable beats be.
Or maybe at the moment you're too upset to think clearly.

Magenta.


cv123

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 22:24:1703/02/2001
to
true story

lets call the little boy Jack...hes about four..playing with his next door
neighbor, Ken also 4. Eventually they start "comparing" (like most kids do)
Jack is uncircumsised, ken isnt. so jack went home and asked his mom what
was wrong with his penis..and when sheexplained why,he was asking,Jacks mom
said, "well son, when ken was a baby, they cut off skin on the tip of his
penis"....horrified Jack asked " but mommy dont kens parents love thier
babies?" ..and beofre she could stop him jack runs out the door and tell
ken what his mom said and ken goes screaming to his parents.....

I personally thought this was amusing..it happend to a *jewish* woman i
know,who chose to leave her sons intact so that one day if they wish they
have the option "looking like eveyronesle"
"Dave {Reply Address in.sig}" <noone$@llondel.org> wrote in message
news:abbaryybaqrybet...@sharra.llondel.org...


> On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 13:28:06 -0800, Michelle wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 17:32:48 GMT, mar...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >>Thing is Ruthie, penile cancer is very, very rare - in my country
> >>(Canada), we have something like 100 cases a year in the entire country.
> >
> >I did a lot of reading about this before our youngest was born.
> >From what I read, it's rare here in the U.S. too. Lot's more than
> >100 cases a year, though. More like 1500.
> >

> Probably both the same percentage of the population, not sure of
> current figures but I'd guess Canada has about 10% of the population of
> the US.


>
> >From what I read, it depends on whether you're talking about
> >circumcised boys or uncircumcised boys. Uncircumcised boys have
> >just about as many urinary tract infections as girls. More at
> >some ages
>

> I've only ever had one and that was at a time when I seemed to be
> getting all sorts of things so I don't think it was necessarily related
> to the presence or absence of a foreskin.


>
> >>I figure if down the road something happens to my boys that makes
> >>circumcision an idea to correct some medical concern, we'll cross the
> >>bridge when we come to it - and hopefully, they will have some say in
> >>what goes on.
> >
> >I used to feel that way too. I read all that stuff and got
> >completely turned off about circumcision. Our youngest son wasn't
> >circumcised (in spite of dad's wishes). Now he says he wishes he
> >had been because all his friends are. You can't win 'em all!
>

> He's still got the choice now he's old enough to decide. It would be
> harder if he was the only one circumcised. But this is one of the key
> arguments in the for/against flame war so I guess I'm going to regret
> mentioning it.
>
> Dave
> --
> mail da v...@llondel.org (without the space)
> http://www.llondel.org/
> Logic is what you use when you run out of ideas
>
>


Rhonda

unread,
3 Feb 2001, 22:47:3803/02/2001
to
Like I said.. not a troll, but might as well be.

Jkknfollett

unread,
4 Feb 2001, 08:58:1804/02/2001