Anti-Vac Arrogance

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P.r.o.b.e.r.t 04-05-04@limbarcartel.com M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 5, 2004

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Apr 6, 2004, 9:19:07 AM4/6/04
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http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-607804,00.html

Who Needs Shots?
A lot of parents are still choosing not to vaccinate their babies. But at
what risk?
By CHRISTINE GORMAN

Monday, Apr. 12, 2004
When an Iowa College student returned from a class trip to India last month,
he brought back more than the usual souvenirs. The man, 19, was infected
with measles, a disease that is largely under control in the U.S. but is
endemic in India and can cause high fevers, deafness, inflammation of the
brain and even death. He wound up infecting at least one other person on the
plane, and Iowa health officials confirmed last week that a third person
later developed the disease on the ground.

What happened? It turns out the young man, like several others in his
college group, comes from a family that doesn't believe in vaccination, and
so he had never had his measles shots. Altogether, six people in the group
developed the illness while in India. When doctors at the Iowa Department of
Public Health learned about their condition, they asked the ailing students
and their unvaccinated traveling companions to delay their return to the
U.S. so as not to spread the infection. Instead, says Kevin Teale, a
spokesman for the public-health department, the 19year-old "came back early
against our advice."

----
Comment: An excellent example of 'free choice not to vaccinate' arrogance.

With any luck, the Iowa outbreak may be limited to just the three cases. But
it raises an important question: Why would anyone choose not to get
vaccinated? For some it's a matter of religion. For others it's a concern
about possible side effects. All vaccines have some small risk. Some parents
and even a few doctors also are worried that recent increases in the rate of
autism and earlier occurrences of Type 1 diabetes could have been caused by
routine childhood vaccines.

It has taken a while, but the best and largest studies have shown that not
to be the case. Eighteen months ago, a giant study of practically every
child in Denmark found no causative link between autism and the so-called
MMR shot - the triple vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella. Another
big Danish study last week found no link between various childhood vaccines
and Type 1 diabetes.

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for any reason - not
to vaccinate, they are endangering not just themselves but everyone around
them.

From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine


mdd

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Apr 6, 2004, 10:35:38 AM4/6/04
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"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 5, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
04-0...@limbarcartel.com> wrote in message
news:f7ycc.25993$7r2.4...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Well, I guess you should hide in your house then, because the great
un-vaccinated are out there.


Brook

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Apr 6, 2004, 12:53:44 PM4/6/04
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"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 5, 2004" wrote:

> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-607804,00.html
>
> Who Needs Shots?
> A lot of parents are still choosing not to vaccinate their babies. But at
> what risk?

That measles vaccine half killed me. And I still got the measles. You can keep
it.

JG

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Apr 6, 2004, 1:38:55 PM4/6/04
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"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 5, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
04-0...@limbarcartel.com> wrote in message
news:f7ycc.25993$7r2.4...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040412-607804,00.html

(Yet another example of crappy reporting!)

> Who Needs Shots?
> A lot of parents are still choosing not to vaccinate their babies. But
at
> what risk?

> By CHRISTINE GORMAN

> Monday, Apr. 12, 2004
> When an Iowa College student returned from a class trip to India last
month,
> he brought back more than the usual souvenirs. The man, 19, was
infected
> with measles, a disease that is largely under control in the U.S. but
is
> endemic in India and can cause high fevers, deafness, inflammation of
the
> brain and even death.

lol....Virtually *anything* can cause death.

He wound up infecting at least one other person on the
> plane, and Iowa health officials confirmed last week that a third
person
> later developed the disease on the ground.

Ages? Vaccination status? I'm betting those infected were also adults,
simply because if they were kids, health officials would use that fact
in their propaganda.

> What happened? It turns out the young man, like several others in his
> college group, comes from a family that doesn't believe in
vaccination, and
> so he had never had his measles shots. Altogether, six people in the
group
> developed the illness while in India.

Again, age and vaccination status? I'm inclined to believe most, if not
all, of the others infected *were* vaccinated, for the same reason as
above. (I think health officials would announce that they--the others
infected--also were not vaccinated, if that was the case. No value, and
perhaps some harm, in publicizing the fact that they were vaccinated.)

When doctors at the Iowa Department of
> Public Health learned about their condition, they asked the ailing
students
> and their unvaccinated traveling companions to delay their return to
the
> U.S. so as not to spread the infection. Instead, says Kevin Teale, a
> spokesman for the public-health department, the 19year-old "came back
early
> against our advice."

> ----
> Comment: An excellent example of 'free choice not to vaccinate'
arrogance.

> With any luck, the Iowa outbreak may be limited to just the three
cases. But
> it raises an important question: Why would anyone choose not to get
> vaccinated? For some it's a matter of religion. For others it's a
concern
> about possible side effects. All vaccines have some small risk. Some
parents
> and even a few doctors also are worried that recent increases in the
rate of
> autism and earlier occurrences of Type 1 diabetes could have been
caused by
> routine childhood vaccines.

Forgoing vaccination boils down to three reasons: Safety, efficacy,
and/or necessity. IME, the majority of non-vaccinators cite the third
reason, and their beliefs/opinions are not predicated upon "herd
immunity"; they're simply, despite the dire warnings of possible
complications/sequelae of a disease, no more afraid of formerly routine
(endemic) diseases than they are of, say, a cold or the flu.

> It has taken a while, but the best and largest studies have shown that
not
> to be the case. Eighteen months ago, a giant study of practically
every
> child in Denmark found no causative link between autism and the
so-called
> MMR shot - the triple vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella.
Another
> big Danish study last week found no link between various childhood
vaccines
> and Type 1 diabetes.

Guess Ms. Gorman decided to cram as many vaccine/vaccination issues into
her article as possible! <g>

> The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for any
reason - not
> to vaccinate, they are endangering not just themselves but everyone
around
> them.

Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or hunt, or (if a
physician/surgeon) prescibe drugs/operate, or... Being unvaccinated, in
and of itself, poses a danger TO NO ONE. You might assert that an
individual poses a *potential* danger once he/she is infected, but
vaccinated individuals who've nonetheless contracted a given disease
pose the same danger.

> From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine

(If you want to read the vaccination opinions views of another Gorman
[Linda; the director of the Independence Institute's Health Care Policy
Center], you can find some at http://i2i.org/author.aspx?AuthorID=7.
The II HCPC's February bulletin had a good article, "Do We Spend Too
Much on Immunizations?" in its February issue;
http://i2i.org/hcpcfeb2004.aspx#1.)


Roger Schlafly

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Apr 6, 2004, 3:12:37 PM4/6/04
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"JG" <jg03...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> > The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for any
> > reason - not
> > to vaccinate, they are endangering not just themselves but everyone
> > around them.
> Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or hunt, or (if a
> physician/surgeon) prescibe drugs/operate, or... Being unvaccinated, in
> and of itself, poses a danger TO NO ONE. ...

The article could have just as well concluded:

The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for any reason

- to visit Third World countries, they are endangering not just


themselves but everyone around them.

or:

The Iowa incident reminds us that airplanes from India can be
bringing disease.


john

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Apr 6, 2004, 6:39:18 PM4/6/04
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> From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine

Time! that has to be the main mouthpiece of the cartel, if there ever
was one. Last time I looked at that piece of propaganda it was cover
to cover bin laden and co fearmongering--just another patsy for the
Illuminati fake war on terror http://www.whale.to/b/bin_laden.html

Peter Bowditch

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Apr 6, 2004, 7:02:24 PM4/6/04
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"Roger Schlafly" <roge...@mindspring.com> wrote:

Could it possibly be the case that Roger is at last getting a clue?

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
Quintessence of the Loon http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Orac

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Apr 6, 2004, 7:47:33 PM4/6/04
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In article <f7ycc.25993$7r2.4...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 5, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
04-0...@limbarcartel.com> wrote:

Indeed. The most arrogant part was that the young man refused to wait to
come back to the U.S. and hence infected at least one person back in
Iowa.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

Orac

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Apr 6, 2004, 7:48:35 PM4/6/04
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In article <1ad65102.04040...@posting.google.com>,
wha...@btinternet.com (john) wrote:

Nice attempt to change the topic because you don't like what the TIME
story says.

Orac

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Apr 6, 2004, 7:49:30 PM4/6/04
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In article <tmd670dibtis3lvfu...@4ax.com>,
Peter Bowditch <myfir...@ratbags.com> wrote:

> "Roger Schlafly" <roge...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >"JG" <jg03...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >> > The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for any
> >> > reason - not
> >> > to vaccinate, they are endangering not just themselves but everyone
> >> > around them.
> >> Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or hunt, or (if a
> >> physician/surgeon) prescibe drugs/operate, or... Being unvaccinated, in
> >> and of itself, poses a danger TO NO ONE. ...
> >
> >The article could have just as well concluded:
> >
> >The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for any reason
> >- to visit Third World countries, they are endangering not just
> >themselves but everyone around them.
> >
> >or:
> >
> >The Iowa incident reminds us that airplanes from India can be
> >bringing disease.
> >
>
> Could it possibly be the case that Roger is at last getting a clue?

That remains to be seen.

Jonathan Smith

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Apr 6, 2004, 8:27:54 PM4/6/04
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"JG" <jg03...@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:<gf-dnXgI4sc...@adelphia.com>...

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm53d319a1.htm

So what?

"Of the three Iowa patients, one had been vaccinated for measles,
"but, unfortunately, vaccine is not 100 percent guaranteed that you
will not get measles," she said."

http://www.press-citizen.com/news/033104measles.htm

regardless, you're wrong. The vaccinated case was a 21 year old male
exposed to the incident case on a flight from Detroit to Cedar rapids.
Note, Roger, you don't have to leave the country to get exposed and
catch measles - and yes, even vaccination is not 100% effective.



> > What happened? It turns out the young man, like several others in his
> > college group, comes from a family that doesn't believe in
> vaccination, and
> > so he had never had his measles shots. Altogether, six people in the
> group
> > developed the illness while in India.
>
> Again, age and vaccination status? I'm inclined to believe most, if not
> all, of the others infected *were* vaccinated,

Some were. Some were not. The incident case was not. The second US
case was. The third case is unknown. The school group was from a
college were exemptor status is common. It was reported that "A high
percentage of students from the college are reported to be
unvaccinated because of nonmedical exemptions. Six measles cases
occurred among the students while they were in India."


> for the same reason as
> above. (I think health officials would announce that they--the others
> infected--also were not vaccinated, if that was the case. No value, and
> perhaps some harm, in publicizing the fact that they were vaccinated.)

Rather than conjecture, why not try and find out? I did. Seems that
simple statements from CDC and others strongly suggest that the
incident case and the six other infecteds were unvaccinated.

"The index patient was a member of a group of approximately 28
students and two supervisors from college A in Iowa who had traveled
to India, where approximately 52,000 cases of measles were reported in
2002 (4). A high percentage of students from college A are reported to
be unvaccinated because of nonmedical exemptions. Six measles cases
occurred among the students while they were in India. The group had
been scheduled to return to the United States on March 7. To avoid
potential spread during the prolonged airline flights, IDPH
recommended that these six students stay in India for at least 4 days
after rash onset (i.e., the period of infectivity). Contacts of these
infectious students who lacked immunity for measles were asked to stay
in India for 18 days after the last possible exposure. Despite these
recommendations, the index patient, who was an unvaccinated contact,
returned to the United States early, flying on March 12 from New Delhi
through Amsterdam and the Detroit Metro Airport to Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
During his travel, he had a cough and conjunctivitis, and within 24
hours of his arrival in Iowa on March 13, he had a rash. A local
physician reported the case to IDPH. Subsequently, measles was
confirmed serologically, and throat swab and urine specimens were
collected for viral isolation."

These were philosophical exempters ("...A high percentage of students
from college A are reported to be unvaccinated because of nonmedical
exemptions.")

The exemptor who got on the plane and proceded to infect two others in
the US is an ass.

> > It has taken a while, but the best and largest studies have shown that
> not
> > to be the case. Eighteen months ago, a giant study of practically
> every
> > child in Denmark found no causative link between autism and the
> so-called
> > MMR shot - the triple vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella.
> Another
> > big Danish study last week found no link between various childhood
> vaccines
> > and Type 1 diabetes.
>
> Guess Ms. Gorman decided to cram as many vaccine/vaccination issues into
> her article as possible! <g>

Yep <g>

> > The Iowa incident reminds us that when people decide - for any
> reason - not
> > to vaccinate, they are endangering not just themselves but everyone
> around
> > them.
>
> Gee, just like when they drive, or ski, or golf, or hunt, or (if a
> physician/surgeon) prescibe drugs/operate, or... Being unvaccinated, in
> and of itself, poses a danger TO NO ONE.

Well, it certainly turned out different in this case, didn't it. I
feel sorry for the 21 year old that was exposed because of the
selfishness of the exemptor.

>You might assert that an
> individual poses a *potential* danger once he/she is infected, but
> vaccinated individuals who've nonetheless contracted a given disease
> pose the same danger.

In this case the exemptor went to a country where measles is endemic,
knew that he was exposed, was told NOT to go back to the US and went
anyway. Idiot.

> > From the Apr. 12, 2004 issue of TIME magazine
>
> (If you want to read the vaccination opinions views of another Gorman
> [Linda; the director of the Independence Institute's Health Care Policy
> Center], you can find some at http://i2i.org/author.aspx?AuthorID=7.
> The II HCPC's February bulletin had a good article, "Do We Spend Too
> Much on Immunizations?" in its February issue;
> http://i2i.org/hcpcfeb2004.aspx#1.)

And? Gorman has one article about vaccinations and it pertained to
the database proposal, not the safety or efficacy of vaccines.

The other article is a rambling about how much is spent and still not
everyone is vaccinated in Colorado. Big wup.

The Iowa incident once again demonstrates the stupidity of some folks.
In this caqse its a vaccine exemptor who thinks that divine grace
will keep him well.

Yeh, Sure.

js

Orac

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Apr 6, 2004, 7:50:56 PM4/6/04
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In article <JiDcc.611$FB1...@fe25.usenetserver.com>,
"Roger Schlafly" <roge...@mindspring.com> wrote:

Very good. And with the interconnectedness of the world and the
frequency with which people travel between continents, that means that
vaccines can prevent outbreaks in the U.S. brought by international
travelers who were not vaccinated.

David Wright

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Apr 6, 2004, 11:12:35 PM4/6/04
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In article <1ad65102.04040...@posting.google.com>,

When it comes to fearmongering, John just hates competition for the
whale.to site.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)


David Wright

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Apr 6, 2004, 11:40:52 PM4/6/04
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In article <JiDcc.611$FB1...@fe25.usenetserver.com>,
Roger Schlafly <roge...@mindspring.com> wrote:

You don't really believe, that Roger. If you did, you wouldn't write
some of the stupid things you write about the lack of need for
vaccination.

PF Riley

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Apr 7, 2004, 2:29:57 AM4/7/04
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On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 03:40:52 GMT, wri...@clam.prodigy.net (David
Wright) wrote:

>In article <JiDcc.611$FB1...@fe25.usenetserver.com>,
>Roger Schlafly <roge...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>The Iowa incident reminds us that airplanes from India can be
>>bringing disease.
>
>You don't really believe, that Roger. If you did, you wouldn't write
>some of the stupid things you write about the lack of need for
>vaccination.

Oh, he most certainly does believe it. You see, Roger thinks we should
just ban airplanes from India.

PF

Rod

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Apr 7, 2004, 8:24:20 AM4/7/04
to
Well David,

John loses, as Terrorism takes the cake. Who did start that ?

Cheers, Rod.
"David Wright" <wri...@clam.prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:DkKcc.51685$a55....@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...

CBI

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Apr 7, 2004, 7:06:14 PM4/7/04
to

I think you mean all of Asia.

Of course, we have already learned the real explanation -
doublethink.


David Wright

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Apr 7, 2004, 11:36:20 PM4/7/04
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In article <40739fc6....@news.nwlink.com>,

Indeed, we should probably station large numbers of people with
antiaircraft missles at all our airports to shoot down any planes
that might be carrying foreigners, or anyone who has come into
contact with foreigners.

chris mankeyh

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Apr 30, 2004, 7:08:52 AM4/30/04
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wha...@btinternet.com (john) wrote in message news:<1ad65102.04040...@posting.google.com>...

You're a pretty messed up human being, john. No wonder you support
child killers like alan yurko. He's your kind of people!

diaperlady

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May 12, 2004, 1:20:36 AM5/12/04
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I've never understood why pro-vaxers have a problem with anti-vaxers. If
vaccinations provide immunity, shouldn't it stand that the only people at
risk are those not vaccinated? The fact is, no one has proven that
vaccinations have provided immunity at all.

P.r.o.b.e.r.t 05-12-04@limbercartel.com M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 12, 2004

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May 12, 2004, 8:58:03 AM5/12/04
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"diaperlady" <diape...@covad.net> wrote in message
news:9eef7b1344c873c0...@localhost.talkabouthealthnetwork.com...

Wrong.

Pro-safe children (i.e., what you call proovaxers) know that no vaccine is
100% effective, and, thus, are concerned with remaining pools of infections,
i.e., the children of clueless anti-vac know-nothings.

And, vaccination has been shown to be effective. If not, you would still see
smallpox and polio rampant in the US.

diaperlady

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May 12, 2004, 11:49:59 AM5/12/04
to
"And, vaccination has been shown to be effective. If not, you would still
see
smallpox and polio rampant in the US."

Do some more research on the history of disease and illness. You are
assuming that the decline occurred after vaccines were administered and
only because the vaccines were administered. In many cases, infectious
diseases were on the decline before vaccines even stared. Just so people
aren't confused about us "weirdos" there are plenty of mainstream doctors
out there who choose not to vaccinate their own children.

P.r.o.b.e.r.t 05-12-04@limbercartel.com M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 12, 2004

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May 12, 2004, 2:22:02 PM5/12/04
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"diaperlady" <diape...@covad.net> wrote in message
news:a87e6bd5d32dfbda...@localhost.talkabouthealthnetwork.com...

> "And, vaccination has been shown to be effective. If not, you would still
> see
> smallpox and polio rampant in the US."
>
> Do some more research on the history of disease and illness.

We have. Look in the archives of this group.

You are
> assuming that the decline occurred after vaccines were administered and
> only because the vaccines were administered.

Yes, the incidence of the disease declined after the vaccination was
introduced. That is a fact.

In many cases, infectious
> diseases were on the decline before vaccines even stared.

Being 'on the decline" is not the same thing as being eradicated.

Just so people
> aren't confused about us "weirdos" there are plenty of mainstream doctors
> out there who choose not to vaccinate their own children.

Wrong. those doctors, if you can find them, are properly referred to as
weirdos.

I know of one pediatrician who refuses to see any child whose parents refuse
vaccination. He son was severely brain damaged by what is now a vaccine
preventable disease before the introduction of the vaccine.


diaperlady

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May 12, 2004, 4:18:18 PM5/12/04
to
You are
> assuming that the decline occurred after vaccines were administered and
> only because the vaccines were administered.

"Yes, the incidence of the disease declined after the vaccination was
introduced. That is a fact."

So you can correlate that the decline was in direct response to the
vaccinations, but you can't correlate that vaccines can be causing
increases in ADHD, ADD, autism, learning disabilities, and for that matter
other adult onset diseases like Alzheimer's, ALS, Parkinson's...

P.r.o.b.e.r.t 05-12-04@limbercartel.com M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-May 12, 2004

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May 12, 2004, 5:49:55 PM5/12/04
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"diaperlady" <diape...@nospam.covad.net> wrote in message
news:bea32996c7d766fc...@localhost.talkabouthealthnetwork.com...

That is correct b ecause there is no proof of a causal connection betweeen
vaccinations and those conditions. In fact, all the available evidence says
that there is no connection.

BTW, when I say evidence, I mean facts that are subject to verification and
duplication, not the idle conjecture of anti-vac liars.

Jeff

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May 12, 2004, 8:48:37 PM5/12/04
to

"diaperlady" <diape...@covad.net> wrote in message
news:a87e6bd5d32dfbda...@localhost.talkabouthealthnetwork.com...

Actually, it was the death rate of the diseases that were declining, due to
better supportive care in hospitals, not the rates of the disease.

Jeff


Jeff

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May 12, 2004, 8:47:24 PM5/12/04
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"diaperlady" <diape...@covad.net> wrote in message
news:9eef7b1344c873c0...@localhost.talkabouthealthnetwork.com...

Actually, the evidence is overwhelming. Each of the childhood vaccines have
been proven to cause an increase in protective antibodies. And the people
who have a high level of antibody in their blood have been shown to have a
much lower risk of getting the disease.

For chicken pox, extensive studies were done before the vaccine was
generally available. The studies showed that kids who got the vaccine got
chicken pox at a much lower rate than the kids who didn't get the vaccine,
and the kids almost always got a very mild case of chickenpox. Plus, kids
who got the vaccine had a much lower rate of shingles. You can go to the CDC
web site and look up the recommendations for the vaccine.

Each of the childhood vaccines has been shown to be effective in similar
studies.

Jeff


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