KLM Airlines friendly service NOT !!! (Long article)
Henning Curti
On 22 Jan 1998 20:28:18 GMT, spammer...@nospam.com wrote:
>
>From address of this article is an "Spam Avoidance" tactics.
>
>If you do reply, please reply to rsn...@oakland.edu or sn...@ford.com
>
>Thanks.
>
>Syed
>
>
>How insensitive you people can be. I can't imagine receiving that kind
>of behavior from service oriented organization, let alone civilized
>country and people (or are they civilized ?? really !! ).
>
>The people at Schiphol Airport, Amsterdam, are not only RUDE, ARROGANT,
>but their behavior is UNPROFESSIONAL. ROGUE and UNCIVILIZED too.
>
Obviously you never connected internationally (which is impossible to
do in most US airports anyway because there are no international
transfer areas, unless you call the LAX cage at Tom Bradley an
international transfer area [actually it is more like prison]) trough
a US airport and did not observe how rude personnel is if you need
help and can't speak english.
>There is more.. I am not going to give you the detail of the non-human
>consumable foods provided during the flights, nor I am going to tell
>you about the "DEAF & DUMB" non-responsive air hostess staff.
>
Oh, I see, KLM tried to poison you, right?? Maybe you should sue them
for USD 1.000.000 or even more..
Peter van Meerten
Yes, it is me again.
I missed one line reading the complaint. And I feel personally attacked.
>The people at Schiphol Airport, Amsterdam, are not only RUDE, ARROGANT,
>but their behavior is UNPROFESSIONAL. ROGUE and UNCIVILIZED too.
I am NOT rude, arrogant, unproffesional, rogue or uncivilized.
I can and will not respond rude, unproffesional, rogue or uncivilzed to this
attack.
I rather have it that someone like the writer did, than someone with 100 %
common sense.
I thank you,
Peter
Gustav Akk
In article <6aa9vc$41l$1...@eubuf21.eu.concert.net>,
I wonder how professional is it to argue here and try to prove
that you are not rude, arrogant, unprofessional etc..
Seems to me you have a chance to be a professional here, and
find out the other side's story as you are the only one here
working in the Amsterdam airport.
But no, instead you are sitting here and whining..
Gustav
A. Chowdhury
In article <6a8a52$st...@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>,
spammer...@nospam.com says...
>
>Hi,
>
>I need to share my recent experience of KLM's friendly service :)...
I can't comment on the accuracy of the post; it generally takes two
hands to clap, the complainer probably had some role in exacerbating
the situation.
But certainly it is true that KLM/Schiphol staff behavior is extremely
variable and their much-vaunted reputation for service is not
really deserved. Some KLM/Schiphol staff are unfailingly polite and
helpful even under extreme stress. If you are from the west and/or are
pleasant and polite and calm and smiling, then most KLM staff are okay.
BUT the combination of a harried and therefore less-than-pleasant
passenger who happens to be non-white, and an older and sour and
overworked staff member, can lead to interactions like the one
described.
KLM today is not what it was. Like every airline, it is cutting back
and paying its staff less for doing more. The strain shows.
el...@spam.free.at.last
In article <6aa9vc$41l$1...@eubuf21.eu.concert.net>,
Peter van Meerten <pea...@tref.nl> wrote:
>Yes, it is me again.
>
>I missed one line reading the complaint. And I feel personally attacked.
>
>>The people at Schiphol Airport, Amsterdam, are not only RUDE, ARROGANT,
>>but their behavior is UNPROFESSIONAL. ROGUE and UNCIVILIZED too.
>
>
>I am NOT rude, arrogant, unproffesional, rogue or uncivilized.
>I can and will not respond rude, unproffesional, rogue or uncivilzed to this
>attack.
>I rather have it that someone like the writer did, than someone with 100 %
>common sense.
I certainly didn't take the original post to mean that EVERYONE at
Schiphol is rude, arrogant, etc. I thought it was pretty clear that
she meant everyone in the relevant domain of discourse -- everyone she
had to deal with about the stroller, etc.
But your posts, which demonstrate that you are concerned only for
excusing yourself (for reasons which escape me since you had nothing to
do with the problem) and defending the 'good name' of your employer without
any facts of the case, do suggest that the lack of concern for passengers
may not be limited to the personnel with whom the poster dealt.
el...@spam.free.at.last
In article <nbhansen-230...@ntcs-ip-s85.uchicago.edu>,
Nicole B. Hansen <nbha...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>I think the problem started in Detroit. According to the KLM regulations,
>umbrella style strollers are allowed as carry on luggage. Was it an
>umbrella stroller? If not, then you have no valid argument. If it was an
>umbrella stroller, then you should have been allowed to bring it on the
>plane, assuming there was enough space for it in the overhead
>compartments. If they told you they were doing a gate check in of the
>stroller, then if you had paid attention on other flights you made in the
>past, you would have noticed that gate check meant the items were checked
>at the gate, and placed in the luggage hold with all of the other
>previously checked luggage, and therefore only could be picked up from the
>luggage carousel. If you didn't want that to happen, then you should have
>made it clear when you gate checked it that you would need the stroller
>immediately upon deplaning. I am sure there is a place they could have
>put it where it would have been returned to you, just as is done with
>people who travel with wheelchairs or walkers or whatever. They are
>returned to their owners before they leave the plane, although they must
>wait for the entire plane to empty out first before they get them back, as
>it would get in the way of other passengers.
I have had things gate-checked that were returned to me at the end of
the flight, in the jetway -- and not wheelchairs either. In the original
poster's place, I too would have thought the stroller would be returned
at that point, without a doubt.
And why? Well, it doesn't require a rocket scientist to figure out that a
toddler's stroller has the same function as a wheelchair -- to permit
someone with inadequate walking ability to move around. If this inference
was too great for the staff, there's something amiss in their selection
or training. (I frankly would vote for selection since any normal should
have figured it out even without training.)
And we don't even know that it wasn't an 'umbrella'-type stroller...
Peter van Meerten
Gustav,
I don't know you but I think you are a simple person, with no brains and
very irritating...
Do you like it when I would mean the things I just wrote ?
As I already wrote that I would find out about the security matter, I will.
I find 99% of the KLM and other employees on Amsterdam very capable and
polite.
And whining for whom ?
Bye,
Peter
Jane Benn
Hi Gustav
Actually, if you had read Peter's original post, you would notice that
he asked for information about the date and flight numbers.
I assumed this was for the purpose of checking to see what he could find
out about the people in the airport who were involved in this incident.
Therefore, he is not just "sitting here and whining", and I think we
should give him a break and await further information from him.
I don't think most people here believe everyone at that airport is rude
or unprofessional, etc., although clearly the original poster met a few
who are. But I can certainly understand why Peter wants to make it clear
that he doesn't fall into that category.
Gustav Akk wrote:
>
> In article <6aa9vc$41l$1...@eubuf21.eu.concert.net>,
> Peter van Meerten <pea...@tref.nl> wrote:
> >Yes, it is me again.
> >
> >I missed one line reading the complaint. And I feel personally attacked.
> >
> >>The people at Schiphol Airport, Amsterdam, are not only RUDE, ARROGANT,
> >>but their behavior is UNPROFESSIONAL. ROGUE and UNCIVILIZED too.
> >
> >
> >I am NOT rude, arrogant, unproffesional, rogue or uncivilized.
> >I can and will not respond rude, unproffesional, rogue or uncivilzed to this
> >attack.
> >I rather have it that someone like the writer did, than someone with 100 %
> >common sense.
>
> I wonder how professional is it to argue here and try to prove
> that you are not rude, arrogant, unprofessional etc..
>
> Seems to me you have a chance to be a professional here, and
> find out the other side's story as you are the only one here
> working in the Amsterdam airport.
>
> But no, instead you are sitting here and whining..
>
> Gustav
--
Jane
If a man is talking in the woods, and no woman hears him,
is he still wrong?
James Penrose
spammer...@nospam.com wrote:
: Excerpt from KLM's Web Page:
: "Hand baggage:
: All passengers are allowed to take the following on board:
: One piece of cabin baggage, max. dimensions 55 x 35 x 25 cm, max.
: weight 10 kgs. An overcoat/wrap/blanket, umbrella/walking stick,
: handbag/purse, tax-free bag, a reasonable amount of reading matter
: for the flight and a stroller (umbrella model). "
: I checked in the stroller at the Detroit airport departure gate as
: "Gate Check-in" so I could receive the stroller at the arrival gate
: at Schiphol airport, Amsterdam. But I never received the stroller
: at the gate at Schiphol airport. Later I learned that the stroller
: was checked in with baggage and I have to go to the baggage claim to
: receive the stroller. If I don't get the stroller from the baggage
: claim, the stroller would not be loaded in to the next leg of the
: flight, because the stroller was tagged to be taken out at Amsterdam
: airport. So, I had to go to the baggage claim with my two kids to
: claim the stroller, and I had to immediately check back in the stroller
: as baggage. The Amsterdam KLM gate attendant would not allow me to
: take the stroller on board as per "baggage rule". I don't know why,
: I had to check in the stroller ??
Not to demean your overall "fun" fest here but, whatever made you think that
gate check-in" meant they'd have your items waiting for you at the
arrival gate? Think about it, four hundred people on a 747 all would
want to check their stuff so they could have it when they arrive eh?
Gate check-in is for those who end up with something they can't carry
on. I imagine the gate persons would have told you had you asked. (I am
assuming you didn't.)
I am also suprised you didn't ask to speak to a supervisor each time you
had a problem. I suspect that would have considerably eased your
situation. Always take your complaint on the spot to someone higher up,
if he or she won't help, keep on going up.
The security people probably aren't employed by the airline, but by the
airport, and thus your complaint to KLM will likely go nowhere, though I
agree you were treated badly.
They may even be forbidden to help handle luggage on and off due to
liability and security reaons. (If you never touch it, you can't be held
if it breaks or something is missing or it goes *boom*.)
I'd also suggest calling their toll free number and geting the name and
address of the president or ceo of KLM and writing directly to him, even
if it's in Holland. Sometimes going straight to the top can work
wonders, since the boss usually wants happy people but the customer
service people generally would prefer you just go away so they don't look
bad.
I hope you get some compensation from them, you certainly do sound like
you had a rough time of it. If you ever have to go that far again, get
your travel agent to work har to find a direct flight, I imagine Air
India would have something more direct from a major US gateway city that
would make your flight a lot less stressful.
Michael
A. Chowdhury wrote:
> BUT the combination of a harried and therefore less-than-pleasant
> passenger who happens to be non-white, and an older and sour and
> overworked staff member, can lead to interactions like the one
> described.
I must have missed something here. Are you claiming that this would have
turned out differently for a white person? I don't recall anything in
the letter stating this. Why is it that anytime you hear about problems
between people of different colors, someone is always suggesting it is
racially motiviated?
It simply sounds like an issue with whether the stroller needed to be
checked or not. The person who commented about the bag had no idea the
passenger didn't start out the trip carrying 2 kids and the bag. Don't
they have luggage carts at the airport? If everyone with 2 small
children demanded a ride from gate to gate, there would way to much
traffic.
Michael
Gustav Akk
In article <6aan2n$2mn$1...@eubuf21.eu.concert.net>,
>
>I don't know you but I think you are a simple person, with no brains and
>very irritating...
>
>Do you like it when I would mean the things I just wrote ?
>As I already wrote that I would find out about the security matter, I will.
>
>I find 99% of the KLM and other employees on Amsterdam very capable and
>polite.
>
>And whining for whom ?
hahaha
I was right about afterall :)
Gustav
el...@spam.free.at.last
In article <34C949...@hotmail.com>, Michael <mvo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>A. Chowdhury wrote:
>> BUT the combination of a harried and therefore less-than-pleasant
>> passenger who happens to be non-white, and an older and sour and
>> overworked staff member, can lead to interactions like the one
>> described.
>
>I must have missed something here. Are you claiming that this would have
>turned out differently for a white person? I don't recall anything in
>the letter stating this. Why is it that anytime you hear about problems
>between people of different colors, someone is always suggesting it is
>racially motiviated?
Well, I never thought about it either since I never think of Indians,
the direct descendants of the tribe that came to be the Europeans, as
non-white. But I was astonished at her treatment -- and A. Chowdhury's
message at least presented a possible -- if despicable -- reason.
Why is it when racism is invoked as a possible motivation for outrageous
behavior, somone is always leaping up to deny it, undeterred by a total
lack of facts?
>It simply sounds like an issue with whether the stroller needed to be
>checked or not. The person who commented about the bag had no idea the
>passenger didn't start out the trip carrying 2 kids and the bag. Don't
>they have luggage carts at the airport?
1. If it needed to be checked, it clearly needed to be unchecked as soon
as the woman deplaned, given what it was for.
2. The woman 'started out' with two kids, the bag, AND A STROLLER. Oh,
maybe you don't know the term? A stroller is like a little tiny wheelchair
and you put a little tiny kid or two in it and you ROLL it. HTH.
3. Would you like to share with us where you find luggage carts in the
jetway or even at the gate? I must have missed those airports.
>If everyone with 2 small
>children demanded a ride from gate to gate, there would way to much
>traffic.
This one is a real winner...
achow...@sludge.phys
In article <34C949...@hotmail.com>, mvo...@hotmail.com says...
>
>A. Chowdhury wrote:
>> BUT the combination of a harried and therefore less-than-pleasant
>> passenger who happens to be non-white, and an older and sour and
>> overworked staff member, can lead to interactions like the one
>> described.
>
>I must have missed something here. Are you claiming that this would have
>turned out differently for a white person? I don't recall anything in
>the letter stating this. Why is it that anytime you hear about problems
>between people of different colors, someone is always suggesting it is
>racially motiviated?
I didn't use the word racism, because it's too loaded and extreme. But I do
know that when people are 'different', in appearance or particularly in
culture (as evidenced by different behavior) they get treated differently. I
speak English fairly well and I know the particular ways I'm supposed to
behave in the west when asking for something (you know: smile, say please,
wag your tail, stuff like that...things that are not standard in the east).
As a result, I don't think I'm treated poorly just because of race. But if I
wore a sari, spoke with a thick and incomprehensible accent, and didn't have
western social graces, would I be treated with impatience by some (not by any
means all) people? Absolutely. I know, because I remember how it was when I
arrived in the west...
Remember how in Brooklyn and LA, blacks' complaint about Korean grocers was
that they wouldn't smile and wouldn't put the change in the customer's hand
but on the counter? And ultimately this contributed to violence? Cultural
differences.
Holland is a schizophrenic country. One part is very liberal and open to
other cultures, and that's the part you hear about. Amsterdam is a delightful
city. But not all the people working for KLM/Schiphol come from Amsterdam...
Jane Benn
Marc Wolff wrote:
>
> Having just traveled from NY to Amsterdam to Tel Aviv and back again on KLM
> this summer I thought I would put my two cents in.
>
> First penny: I had a fantastic experience with KLM and Amsterdam on all four
> flights and certainly better than any of the domestic airlines I have
> traveled on. And the food was much better too.
>
That's nice to hear. I'm curious, though. Are you saying that you didn't
find it inconvenient carrying the children through the airport, or that
they let you keep your stroller or just what? I'm trying to see how your
situation compares to that of the original poster.
I have to admit, the food was better on the flight I took to London than
anything I've eaten on a plane within North America. It was almost as
good as a mediocre restaurant.
> Second penny: We don't know this woman at all but I can understand that
> traveling such a long way with two small children can be difficult for anyone
> but it seems that this women was quite a bit demanding
Just how is it demanding to ask to take a stroller on a plane, and for a
little assistance getting from one gate to another when travelling with
small children?
If you're talking about asking for assistance getting a bag onto the
conveyor belt, I had a similar problem once in London.
I was travelling with my mother, who had come down with the flu. As she
was 78, and quite ill, she could be no help with the bags, so I was
carrying everything, and propping her up to boot. By the time we checked
in at security, I could barely lift the carry-on luggage. Believe it or
not, the man at the security gate saw my problem, leaned over and
assisted me in putting the larger bag up.
No silly questions about why I was carrying it, just a kind hand when I
needed it.
> and no one knows how
> she conveyed her needs to the staff. Poor communication can lead to
> misunderstanding.
I would have thought that even a quite stupid person, seeing a woman
travelling with a baby, a toddler and some carryon luggage, but no other
adults, onto a flight that had a stop along the way, would realize they
were going to need their stroller enroute. How good should her
communication have needed to be?
>Seems like a lot if things went wrong for one person. A
> common denominator possibly.
Yes. You're right. They made her travel without her stroller, and all of
her problems stemmed from that common cause. Why do you suppose they did
that?
> Momma always told me to be nice.
>
Mine told me the same thing. Too bad our mothers hadn't raised the KLM
employees and security staff involved in this incident.
> That's my two pennies.
>
And that's mine.
Johan W. Elzenga
In article <6abmeh$s43$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
el...@spam.free.at.last wrote:
>>> BUT the combination of a harried and therefore less-than-pleasant
>>> passenger who happens to be non-white, and an older and sour and
>>> overworked staff member, can lead to interactions like the one
>>> described.
>>
>>I must have missed something here. Are you claiming that this would have
>>turned out differently for a white person? I don't recall anything in
>>the letter stating this. Why is it that anytime you hear about problems
>>between people of different colors, someone is always suggesting it is
>>racially motiviated?
>
>Well, I never thought about it either since I never think of Indians,
>the direct descendants of the tribe that came to be the Europeans, as
>non-white. But I was astonished at her treatment -- and A. Chowdhury's
>message at least presented a possible -- if despicable -- reason.
>
>Why is it when racism is invoked as a possible motivation for outrageous
>behavior, somone is always leaping up to deny it, undeterred by a total
>lack of facts?
I believe the one who suggested it was the one who was undeterred by a
total lack of facts. We do not know whether racism was involved, so it's
always a possibility. It's also a possibility that the person involved just
lost his mother, making him feel bad. Or he just went through a painful
divorce and now he hates all females. Or he simply had a terrible headage
and couldn't stand one more demanding passenger anymore. It's all possible,
but somehow only the racism possibility is quickly suggested as (part) of
the cause. Let's not change this discussion into a racism discussion. There
is absolutely no proof for it and the person involved didn't suggest it
either. The story is bad enough _without_ the suggestion of racism.
Jane Benn
Nicole B. Hansen wrote:
>
> Also, for those of you who are reading this in a newsgroup other than
> rec.travel.asia, I would just like to point out that this is not the first
> time that Indians have accused KLM and the Dutch government of racism on
> rec.travel.asia. About two months ago there was a long thread about visa
> fees being imposed on Indian citizens in transit. I am not mentioning
> this to justify anything, but since the woman alledged that racism might
> have played a part, I though some people might be interested in looking up
> that thread in deja news.
>
The original poster made no such allegation. That was a totally
different individual. Check for yourself!
--
Jane
Too bad men don't come with pull-down menus and on-line help!
Barbara Vaughan
Johan W. Elzenga <j...@cheetah.demon.REMOVE_THIS_TO_REPLY.nl> wrote in
article <B0EF86DC...@cheetah.demon.nl>...
> In article <6abmeh$s43$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
> el...@spam.free.at.last wrote:
>
> >>> BUT the combination of a harried and therefore less-than-pleasant
> >>> passenger who happens to be non-white, and an older and sour and
> >>> overworked staff member, can lead to interactions like the one
> >>> described.
> >>
> >>I must have missed something here. Are you claiming that this would
have
> >>turned out differently for a white person? I don't recall anything in
> >>the letter stating this.
> >Why is it when racism is invoked as a possible motivation for outrageous
> >behavior, somone is always leaping up to deny it, undeterred by a total
> >lack of facts?
>
> I believe the one who suggested it was the one who was undeterred by a
> total lack of facts. We do not know whether racism was involved, so it's
> always a possibility. It's also a possibility that the person involved
just
> lost his mother, making him feel bad, etc.
I am a white woman who has lived in the Netherlands. When I read the part
about the lecture about the proper Dutch way of doing things, I looked back
at the poster's name, and thought, "Hmmmm...". The poster didn't mention
racism as a motive, but it's the first thing that occurred to me.
The last time I was at Schipol I saw an African woman with two small
children trying to buy the children something to drink with a $100 bill.
The snack bars were accepting all currencies, but not in such large
denominations. The was a total lack of sympathy for her plight on the part
of the service personnel. The server snatched the sodas back with a
dismissive sneer. The woman was surprised that her money was not
acceptable, but didn't complain. No one suggested where she might change
the bill, or how she might get there. (Schipol is about the size of midtown
Manhattan.) I told the server to add the woman's total to my bill.
It's also obvious that the poster misunderstood what would happen to her
stroller when the Detroit agent suggested checking it at the gate. However,
the price she had to pay for her lack of experience with airline procedure
is inexcusable. I just can't even imagine trying to get through Schiphol
with an infant and a small toddler with limited ability to walk and a
diaper bag. I'm sure she and the kids were already tired. She might have
been understandably short of patience after a bit of this. If even one
person had shown them a little kindness and sympathy, they could have
managed it.
Barbara Vaughan
J Henderson
Jane Benn (jb...@home.net) wrote:
: Marc Wolff wrote:
: >
: > Having just traveled from NY to Amsterdam to Tel Aviv and back again on KLM
: > this summer I thought I would put my two cents in.
: >
: > First penny: I had a fantastic experience with KLM and Amsterdam on all four
: > flights and certainly better than any of the domestic airlines I have
: > traveled on. And the food was much better too.
: >
: That's nice to hear. I'm curious, though. Are you saying that you didn't
: find it inconvenient carrying the children through the airport, or that
: they let you keep your stroller or just what? I'm trying to see how your
: situation compares to that of the original poster.
I've travelled KLM with my daughter more times than I can count, and we've
NEVER had any problem with the stroller - it's always been taken from us
when we boarded and given back when we de-planed.
--
Jeremy.
(note busted reply-to address - make the obvious changes)
Johan W. Elzenga
In article <01bd2900$1dd85ea0$2046...@bvaughan.remote.Princeton.EDU>,
"Barbara Vaughan" <who...@nospam.goa.way> wrote:
> I am a white woman who has lived in the Netherlands. When I read
> the part about the lecture about the proper Dutch way of doing things,
> I looked back at the poster's name, and thought, "Hmmmm...". The
> poster didn't mention racism as a motive, but it's the first thing
> that occurred to me.
Did it ever occur to you that the fact that she obviously wasn't Dutch may
have something to do with it? There are many colored Dutch people, who
nevertheless do not constantly receive lectures about "the proper Dutch way
of doing things", so color is not necessarily the issue. But if you don't
speak Dutch, some Dutch people may conclude you are not Dutch. Wich still
does not give them the right to lecture you, but that's another matter.
>The last time I was at Schipol I saw an African woman with two small
>children trying to buy the children something to drink with a $100 bill.
>The snack bars were accepting all currencies, but not in such large
>denominations. The was a total lack of sympathy for her plight on the part
>of the service personnel. The server snatched the sodas back with a
>dismissive sneer. The woman was surprised that her money was not
>acceptable, but didn't complain. No one suggested where she might change
>the bill, or how she might get there. (Schipol is about the size of midtown
>Manhattan.) I told the server to add the woman's total to my bill.
Again I'm probably missing the point here: You experienced very rude
behavior against this woman, that's clear. But are you certain that this
wouldn't have happened if the woman had been white? Are you suggesting the
$100 bill would have been accepted if presented by a white woman? Or that a
white woman would have been treated any differently? It's possible, but in
no way certain. People can also be rude to other people, simply because
they are rude, not because they are racists. Recently I was also treated
very poorly by a restaurant servant at Schiphol. But I'm white and I'm
Dutch. However, me being white and being Dutch didn't make the service any
more friendly. I wanted to get two coffees at the bar, when a servant kind
of "ordered" me to take a seat at a table. I explained to her (still very
friendly) that I had already taken a table outside where my wife was
sitting and that I just wanted to get coffee for her and me. The servant
then told me she wouldn't serve me as long as I kept standing at the bar,
because she was only hired to serve the tables...
I'm not saying racism doesn't exist at Schiphol or in The Netherlands.
Unfortunately, it does. But what you are doing right now is turning thing
around: As soon as somebody with a colored skin is involved in an incident,
you cry "racism!". The woman who started this thread didn't mention the
word "racism" once, even though it was a very long post. Apparently she
didn't experience it that way. And since she was the only person present,
perhaps you could let her speak for herself.
Barbara Vaughan
Johan W. Elzenga <j...@cheetah.demon.REMOVE.THIS.TO.REPLY.nl> wrote in
article <B0F29881...@cheetah.demon.nl>...
> In article <01bd2900$1dd85ea0$2046...@bvaughan.remote.Princeton.EDU>,
> "Barbara Vaughan" <who...@nospam.goa.way> wrote:
>
> > I am a white woman who has lived in the Netherlands. When I read
> > the part about the lecture about the proper Dutch way of doing things,
> > I looked back at the poster's name, and thought, "Hmmmm...". The
> > poster didn't mention racism as a motive, but it's the first thing
> > that occurred to me.
>
> Did it ever occur to you that the fact that she obviously wasn't Dutch
may
> have something to do with it? There are many colored Dutch people, who
> nevertheless do not constantly receive lectures about "the proper Dutch
way
> of doing things", so color is not necessarily the issue.
I'm sorry if I appeared to state that racism was the only possible motive.
I was responding to someone who seemed to be saying that racism couldn't
possibly be a motive. I only wanted to say that I've seen enough racism in
the Netherlands to know that it exists, probably as much as it does in the
US, although most Dutch people would be shocked to hear that. My judgement
of racism is based more on what I have heard Dutch people say about
nonwhites, and also about Turks, than about the treatment I have seen
nonwhite people receive. I have also known Dutch people who are
courageously fighting racism in their own society, so I don't want to paint
a picture of all good or all evil.
> But if you don't
> speak Dutch, some Dutch people may conclude you are not Dutch. Wich still
> does not give them the right to lecture you, but that's another matter.
>
> >The last time I was at Schipol I saw an African woman with two small
> >children trying to buy the children something to drink with a $100 bill.
> >The snack bars were accepting all currencies, but not in such large
> >denominations. The was a total lack of sympathy for her plight on the
part
> >of the service personnel. The server snatched the sodas back with a
> >dismissive sneer. The woman was surprised that her money was not
> >acceptable, but didn't complain. No one suggested where she might change
> >the bill, or how she might get there. (Schipol is about the size of
midtown
> >Manhattan.) I told the server to add the woman's total to my bill.
>
> Again I'm probably missing the point here: You experienced very rude
> behavior against this woman, that's clear. But are you certain that this
> wouldn't have happened if the woman had been white? Are you suggesting
the
> $100 bill would have been accepted if presented by a white woman? Or that
a
> white woman would have been treated any differently? It's possible, but
in
> no way certain. People can also be rude to other people, simply because
> they are rude, not because they are racists.
The example I saw in the airport could, as you say, have also happened to a
white person - it could even have happened to a Dutch person. But the
manner of the server, the fact that she barely said a word to the mother,
seemed to me to be racist. I could be wrong, but I felt that there would at
least have been some dialogue if the woman had been white. However, I'll
admit I may have overinterpreted it.
> I'm not saying racism doesn't exist at Schiphol or in The Netherlands.
> Unfortunately, it does. But what you are doing right now is turning thing
> around: As soon as somebody with a colored skin is involved in an
incident,
> you cry "racism!". The woman who started this thread didn't mention the
> word "racism" once, even though it was a very long post. Apparently she
> didn't experience it that way. And since she was the only person present,
> perhaps you could let her speak for herself.
I didn't think I had cried racism. I was responding to a poster who was
indignant that anyone would even think racism was a possible motive. If I
made the impression that I thought it was the only possible motive, I'm
sorry. But it's true that, reading the posting, I began to wonder if it was
a white woman who had been treated so shabbily, and I looked back at the
name and realized that she probably was from India. This thought didn't
just come into my head for random reasons - it's been my life experience,
in many different countries, that I get treated better than a nonwhite
person. I cringe when I see it, but only a blind person could avoid seeing
it.
Barbara Vaughan
Ron Schwarz -- see sig to reply
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:21:49 +0100, "Peter van Meerten" <pea...@tref.nl>
wrote:
>Gustav,
>
>I don't know you but I think you are a simple person, with no brains and
>very irritating...
>
>Do you like it when I would mean the things I just wrote ?
>As I already wrote that I would find out about the security matter, I will.
>
>I find 99% of the KLM and other employees on Amsterdam very capable and
>polite.
So then, you're that 1%, eh?
One of my airline bitchrants: in '93, my brotherinlaw was shot, and lay dying
in a hospital in Fargo ND. With -0- notice, we hopped on Republic to fly
there. At one of our switchovers (Chicago, IIRC), the morons put us on the
wrong plane. Fortunately, we got off before it took off. We ran back to the
boarding bitch (and I am softpedaling with that title) and told her. She
pointed to the next gate and told us how stupid *we* were to not be on *that*
plane. We said ok, we'll get on. She said no, it's ready to leave, you'll
have to wait several hours for another.
I said look, my brotherinlaw was shot, and is in the hospital dying. The
bitch looks at me, and says, "Yeah, right."
I blew my stack. The kindest thing I told the bitch was "Call St. Lukes
Hospital and check for yourself!"
I can't remember exactly what I said, but when I was done saying it, the
bitch got on her walkie talkie, mumbled something into it, and next thing I
knew, the plane backed-up to the gate, and we got on. We got more than a few
funny looks as we walked to our seats.
I have zero respect for airlines, realtors, and other lowlives.
--
(reply to usenet at clubvb.com)
Ron Schwarz -- see sig to reply
On 24 Jan 1998 07:23:09 GMT, achow...@sludge.phys,nwu.edu (A. Chowdhury)
wrote:
[...]
>Holland is a schizophrenic country. One part is very liberal and open to
>other cultures, and that's the part you hear about. Amsterdam is a delightful
>city. But not all the people working for KLM/Schiphol come from Amsterdam...
Perhaps they hire them in Grand "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't Much" Rapids?
<g>
Ron Schwarz -- see sig to reply
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:24:03 -0700, Marc Wolff <mwo...@mctek.com> wrote:
>Having just traveled from NY to Amsterdam to Tel Aviv and back again on KLM
>this summer I thought I would put my two cents in.
>
>First penny: I had a fantastic experience with KLM and Amsterdam on all four
>flights and certainly better than any of the domestic airlines I have
>traveled on. And the food was much better too.
>
>Second penny: We don't know this woman at all but I can understand that
>traveling such a long way with two small children can be difficult for anyone
>but it seems that this women was quite a bit demanding and no one knows how
>she conveyed her needs to the staff. Poor communication can lead to
>misunderstanding. Seems like a lot if things went wrong for one person. A
>common denominator possibly. Momma always told me to be nice.
>
>That's my two pennies.
Let's make it an even three: you should not have to "be nice" to get what
you've already paid for.
J Paul Getty
On Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:09:47 GMT, dev...@clubvb.com (Ron Schwarz --
see sig to reply) wrote:
If your brother in law is anything close to resembling you in
attitude, well, no wonder he was SHOT!
>On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:21:49 +0100, "Peter van Meerten" <pea...@tref.nl>
>wrote:
>
>>Gustav,
>>
>>I don't know you but I think you are a simple person, with no brains and
>>very irritating...
>>
>
>So then, you're that 1%, eh?
>
>One of my airline bitchrants: in '93, my brotherinlaw was shot, and lay dying
>in a hospital in Fargo ND. With -0- notice, we hopped on Republic to fly
>there.
>
>I said look, my brotherinlaw was shot, and is in the hospital dying. The
>bitch looks at me, and says, "Yeah, right."
>
>I blew my stack. The kindest thing I told the bitch was "Call St. Lukes
>Hospital and check for yourself!"
>
>
>I have zero respect for airlines, realtors, and other lowlives.
>
>
Durant Imboden
I've had nothing but good experiences when flying KLM.
The service is professional, the planes are as good as can be expected
(better than can be expected, in the case of the newest 747s), and the food
is edible if not exciting.
- Durant Imboden
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Europe for Visitors,
http://goeurope.miningco.com
Switzerland for Visitors,
http://goswitzerland.miningco.com
Venice for Visitors,
http://goeurope.miningco.com/library/weekly/bl-venice.htm
Eldon Mains
Peter van Meerten wrote:
> Gustav,
>
> I don't know you but I think you are a simple person, with no brains and
> very irritating...
>
> Do you like it when I would mean the things I just wrote ?
> As I already wrote that I would find out about the security matter, I will.
>
> I find 99% of the KLM and other employees on Amsterdam very capable and
> polite.
>
> And whining for whom ?
>
> Bye,
>
> Peter
>
> >I wonder how professional is it to argue here and try to prove
> >that you are not rude, arrogant, unprofessional etc..
> >
> >Seems to me you have a chance to be a professional here, and
> >find out the other side's story as you are the only one here
> >working in the Amsterdam airport.
> >
> >But no, instead you are sitting here and whining..
> >
> >Gustav
> >
There goes the not being rude, arrogant, etc. Don't whine Peter, no one
likes a whiner.
--
Eldon Mains<roz...@europa.com>
"Some people dream of success...while others wake up and work hard to obtain
it."
Eldon Mains
el...@spam.free.at.last wrote:
Don't forget, Ellen, you are talking about Detroit here.
Ward Stewart
>bitch got on her walkie talkie, mumbled something into it, and next thing I
>knew, the plane backed-up to the gate, and we got on. We got more than a few
>funny looks as we walked to our seats.
>
>
to tell of the earth-shaking importance of their catching THAT plane.
Your tale would appear to have been true, it is certainly in the
minority!
Then again, if each and every one of these folks caused the departing
plane to stop and return to the boarding gate things would be slowed
down to the point where on might as well walk and save the money.
What you passed over in your little hissy-fit was that the airline DID
accomodate you, DID stop the flight and DID as you asked. This, in
spite of an unbelievably caustic and hateful attitude.
ward
------------------------------------------------------------
The bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals
and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean
that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they
need more supervision.
--Lynn Lavner.
---------------------------------------------------------
marc !!!
Dammit dont pay with a 100 dollar bill for a couple of drinks
Ron Schwarz -- see sig to reply
On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 01:36:36 GMT, wste...@hi.net (Ward Stewart) wrote:
>On Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:09:47 GMT, dev...@clubvb.com (Ron Schwarz --
>see sig to reply) wrote:
>>
>>I can't remember exactly what I said, but when I was done saying it, the
>>bitch got on her walkie talkie, mumbled something into it, and next thing I
>>knew, the plane backed-up to the gate, and we got on. We got more than a few
>>funny looks as we walked to our seats.
>>
>>I have zero respect for airlines, realtors, and other lowlives.
>>
>Nearly EVERYONE showing up just late for a departure has a VIVID tale
>to tell of the earth-shaking importance of their catching THAT plane.
>Your tale would appear to have been true, it is certainly in the
>minority!
Let me see now. Walking from one Republic flight directly to the connecting
Republic flight, on a schedule made for me by Republic constitutes "showing
up late for a departure"?
>Then again, if each and every one of these folks caused the departing
>plane to stop and return to the boarding gate things would be slowed
>down to the point where on might as well walk and save the money.
>
>What you passed over in your little hissy-fit was that the airline DID
>accomodate you, DID stop the flight and DID as you asked. This, in
>spite of an unbelievably caustic and hateful attitude.
In lieu of which I never would have been boarded on the plane, troll.
"In spite" my ass.
Do you find life as plonkbait to be particularly rewarding, or are you simply
a masochist?