Breast-Feeding and Intimacy
Susan Hochtman
Diana, and I thought I'd throw this out to the group.
Here's what happened: Diana was lying on my chest, and crawled up to
kiss me, on the mouth. Of course, she's not too good at this yet, but
that was definitely what she was trying to do, and I kissed her. I
then realized that never, in my whole life, do I recall kissing my own
mother on the mouth. This brought me to thinking about the physical
intimacy that comes as a result of breast-feeding.
I mean, Diana and I are physically connected, and so her body doesn't
seem foreign to me. DH and I both sleep in the nude (although Diana
doesn't - she's got feet pajamas), and I've never felt uncomfortable
about that, although I suppose we'll have to quit it at some point. I
concluded that, as a result of breast-feeding, I feel much more
intimate with her physically than I would if she were not spending so
many hours sucking on my breast. Therefore, sleeping in the nude and
kissing on the mouth seem perfectly natural to me. Of course, I don't
mean these things in a sexual way at all, but I think (hope!) that
goes without saying. I mean, it's not like we're tongue-kissing - I
just sort of feel like we're Adam and Eve in the garden with our
child, and our bodies and affectionate touching and cuddling are very
natural to us.
What I was wondering was, for mothers who have concluded
breast-feeding their older children, does this feeling of intimacy
last afterwards? Or does it gradually go away, and we set stronger
physical boundaries with our children? I guess I'm wondering if some
day, Diana would find kissing me on the mouth as weird as I would find
it to be with my mother. Is the intimacy a function of her age, or
is it a function of the breast-feeding, do you think? Any thoughts
from the group?
Best, susan
Nikki Kavanagh
on the lips when I was tiny and even bigger - teens, and I was not nursed.
I would guess that breastfeeding probably enhances closeness but does not
guarentee it just as bottle feeding only would not prevent such closeness.
I believe that physical intimacy is a function of "mothering as a whole" of
which BF is only one tiny part.
Nikki
Susan Hochtman wrote in message <38283f7d....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>I was just having some random thoughts last night while I was nursing
>Diana, and I thought I'd throw this out to the group.
>
>Here's what happened: Diana was lying on my chest, and crawled up to
>kiss me, on the mouth. snip>
D.Chenier
<38283f7d....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
> What I was wondering was, for mothers who have concluded
> breast-feeding their older children, does this feeling of intimacy
> last afterwards? Or does it gradually go away, and we set stronger
> physical boundaries with our children? I guess I'm wondering if some
> day, Diana would find kissing me on the mouth as weird as I would find
> it to be with my mother. Is the intimacy a function of her age, or
> is it a function of the breast-feeding, do you think? Any thoughts
> from the group?
>
My son was only nursed for 8 weeks, however, the intimacy lasted... well,
it's still there and he's 8.5 years old. My daughter only recently weaned,
at 3.5 yo. And, again, the enhanced intimacy still remains. Whether this
has anything to do with breastfeeding or the kind of parents we are, I
guess we'll never know. I have noticed that I am a lot less concerned of
the children seeing me nude than dh is. I think this has to do with our own
views our ourselves much more than with nursing. Also, after giving birth,
twice, in a Hospital environment, with 4 or 5 people in attendance, this
coming after months of regularly being probed by my doctor, I kind of lost
all the shreds of modesty I once had!!! After all that, having my children
see me in the buff is nothing!!!
I think that it is probably a mix of the intimacy reached through
breastfeeding for some time and our more relaxed approach to parenting.
That and shedding a few tabboos along the way:)
--
Danielle,
Maman to Marc-Andre - May 22, 1991 and Genevieve - Dec. 18, 1995 and
recently weaned
Writing from Canada
Parent-L Birth secretary
Visit my new web-page, view new pics of the kids, and, please, sign my
guest-book!! http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/home.html
My ICQ # is 6463692
Canadian Special Education Chat Room -
http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/canspec.html
&canspec ICQ # 33710657
Alison Tooth
> What I was wondering was, for mothers who have concluded
> breast-feeding their older children, does this feeling of intimacy
> last afterwards? Or does it gradually go away, and we set stronger
> physical boundaries with our children? I guess I'm wondering if some
> day, Diana would find kissing me on the mouth as weird as I would find
> it to be with my mother. Is the intimacy a function of her age, or
> is it a function of the breast-feeding, do you think? Any thoughts
> from the group?
Well, my mother and I used to kiss a lot (don't any more apart from
hello/goodbye) - when I was a teenager it was only after making up after
an argument! - and I was only bfed for a couple of months. But we were
always fairly relaxed about nudity (and not shutting the toilet door) in
our house anyway. Never slept with them though, and they always came out
in the morning wearing pyjamas!
Poppy - 3, no longer bfed - often sleeps with us (we're usually nude)
and it's not an issue yet.
I guess it's more to do with a general attitude - I mean, my nan bfed my
dad for 10 months, but I really can't imagine her lolling around in bed
naked with him on a Sunday morning!
Alison
Marie
almost 3 now and I still love kissing her pudgy lips.
The intimacy hasn't gone away for us, neither has it
lessened any at all.
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
Susan Hochtman wrote in message
<38283f7d....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>I was just having some random thoughts last night
while I was nursing
>Diana, and I thought I'd throw this out to the group.
>
>Here's what happened: Diana was lying on my chest,
and crawled up to
>What I was wondering was, for mothers who have
concluded
>breast-feeding their older children, does this feeling
of intimacy
>last afterwards? Or does it gradually go away, and we
set stronger
>physical boundaries with our children? I guess I'm
wondering if some
>day, Diana would find kissing me on the mouth as weird
as I would find
>it to be with my mother. Is the intimacy a function
of her age, or
>is it a function of the breast-feeding, do you think?
Any thoughts
>from the group?
>
>Best, susan
Suzanne Dallapè
Susan Hochtman wrote in message
>breast-feeding their older children, does this feeling of intimacy
>last afterwards? Or does it gradually go away, and we set stronger
>physical boundaries with our children?
In my case, not only did I never have a problem with it during nursing (same
as you), but I feel no different now that we are no longer nursing. I
suspect I will never change my attitude. My younger brother and sister were
both raised in an AP way (of course, it didn't have a name back then!), and
to this day, they are both still very affectionate with my parents. My
brother is 18, and he occasionally just comes out and says, "Give me a hug,
dad," or he'll put his arm casually around my mom and kiss her. He also
frequently hugs me whem I visit. My parents are constantly awed by the idea
of a teenage boy being so sweet to his family! So I do think the early
intimacy leads to a very good later relationship.
--S.
Morning Glories
cuddly and lovey-dovey and likes to kiss on the lips still. Jake is very
very touchy-feely and especially when falling asleep or nursing has to
be stroking some skin (even when getting a bottle) and if there's enough
exposed sking he'll use his feet, too! I can't sleep nude with him on
the rare occasions he ends up in my bed in the middle of the night
(although he is in his own twin bed now, sharing a room with Amy), b/c
if I were nude, he would tickle me all over.
And I'm quite glad no one has come on here to admonish us for possibly
passing the 'cavity germ' to our babies by mouth-kissing. I mean, when
they grab you by the cheeks and pull you to them, how can you resist
that little drooly grin?
loriann
Susan Hochtman wrote:
> What I was wondering was, for mothers who have concluded
> breast-feeding their older children, does this feeling of intimacy
> last afterwards?
I believe it does, if my experience is any indicator. Small example: When
I drop my daughter off at preschool, we kiss (on the mouth) and hug, which
is totally normal for us but seems to be unusual for the rest of the kids.
And when my daughter leaves, she insists on hugging her teachers. She also
hugs her best friend every morning (it's mutual) when she arrives. Her
teachers comment almost daily how sweet and affectionate she is, which isn't
really news to me, but apparently differs from the norm. If another kid
cries or falls of the swing or something, she's the first to come and
investigate and offer sympathy. If a baby cries in a store, she suffers as
much as I do. Could be that she mirrors my emotions. In any case her
emotional maturity is far and away beyond any of her peers.
I believe that whatever feels right in the way of affection toward children
is good. No harm ever came from too many kisses or hugs. Holding back for
the supposed sake of development or promotion of independence is pure and
utter bullshit (I feel strongly because I see this crap too often, the
result is generally very insecure children).
I also believe that breastfeeding is the perfect vehicle for introducing the
concept of intimacy and affection. I grew up in a "hands-off" household,
and I really think it's a contributor to numerous common afflictions, such
as substance abuse and chronic depression. I also believe that children who
receive lots of affection are physically healthier than those who don't.
Not really a new or shocking concept, but it should be food for thought for
a great many.
lori
kaye.m
I think it is a combo of b/f and your parenting. I believe it is mostly
our parenting practices, though.
My almost 3 year old gets ticked if he thinks he is leaving with out
giving mamma a 'kissie' and 'hugs'.
I, too, grew up in a household where hugs and kisses were limited. We
knew we were loved, but we just didn't have that touchy-feely stuff. I
don't have a 'close' relationship with my mom, not one where I feel I
could tell her everything. My parents were into the 'don't spoil the
baby thing' and that definately affects one's whole self.
I want my kids to learn sensitivity. The best way to teach is to model.
And, Lori, I also think AP makes a total healthy person, mentally
spiratually and physically.
Kris mom to Ian 2.5Y and Dane 9M
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:55:57 -0500 "loriann" <swtw...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).
Susan Hochtman
<Kar...@smugglers.alliance.org> wrote:
>
>In my case, not only did I never have a problem with it during nursing (same
>as you), but I feel no different now that we are no longer nursing. I
>suspect I will never change my attitude. My younger brother and sister were
>both raised in an AP way (of course, it didn't have a name back then!), and
>to this day, they are both still very affectionate with my parents. My
>brother is 18, and he occasionally just comes out and says, "Give me a hug,
>dad," or he'll put his arm casually around my mom and kiss her. He also
>frequently hugs me whem I visit. My parents are constantly awed by the idea
>of a teenage boy being so sweet to his family! So I do think the early
>intimacy leads to a very good later relationship.
>--S.
>
>
Wow, Suzanne, that actually brought tears to my eyes! A teenager
actually asking for a hug from his dad! When I think of the lousy
relationship that I have with my family, I envy you lots. It sounds
like you grew up in a wonderful family, and that you're perpetuating
that in your own. While I grew up in a kind of hellish home, and I
actually cringe when my father hugs me (which is rarely, anyway),
we're doing it differently with our own family.
Just today, I had a fight with my sister (who is just like my mother)
because we're supposed to go there for Thanksgiving, and I've offered
to help cook. My sister said that she isn't a big "from scratch" cook
and she and my mother could handle it just fine, thank you. Really
made me feel left out and hurt - like my contribution was not needed
or wanted at all. She also expressed concern that if I fed Diana in
her house, I would dirty her carpet. She suggested I go out and buy a
booster seat that I can bring to her house, just for Thanksgiving.
Sorry this is so OT - I'm just so hurt and angry right now, I had to
vent somewhere. Can you imagine? If I don't buy the booster seat, I
wonder if she'll make me feed Diana in the bathroom? Honestly, I'm so
mad I'm thinking of telling her I can't make it after all.
Well, anyway, we're doing it differently, as I said. Any kid in the
block is welcome to come to my house and eat the messiest food s/he
wants, as long as they're having fun! I wouldn't trade those giggles
and smiles when a kid is eating a messy cupcake that I've baked for
them for the cleanest carpet in the world!
Anyway, sorry so long - I wish I grew up in your house, Suzanne (and
the others who wrote with similar experiences!).
Best, Susan
Susan Hochtman
wrote:
My parents were into the 'don't spoil the
>baby thing' and that definately affects one's whole self.
Don't you just hate that? My parents came to visit right after Diana
was born, and they had all kinds of dire predictions about what would
happen if I carried through with my plan to pick her up whenever she
cried. Well, it's seven months later, and my folks are back home in
Florida, where they live, and whenever I send pictures, my mother
says, "She seems like such a happy baby - always smiling and laughing
in those pictures." I guess it was all that "spoiling" I did.
While it is true that Diana still doesn't like to be put down, and
that's sometimes a challenge, I think the results of a sensitive and
secure child will be worth it. And she is getting more independent,
as she gets older.
My mother told me that when I was a baby, I would just "cry and cry
for hours, for no reason." I looked at her like she was crazy. I
said, "And you didn't pick me up? You just let me cry?" "Well, I
didn't want to spoil you."
Well, it worked. I didn't get spoiled. I also still, at the age of
42, have a problem with intimacy (which I am working on, with
success), and chronic nightmares, which I have had since I was a
child. Of course, going into my parents' bed was strictly forbidden.
I will never let my child cry in terror in the dark, as I did.
>> I believe that whatever feels right in the way of affection toward children
>> is good. No harm ever came from too many kisses or hugs. Holding back for
>> the supposed sake of development or promotion of independence is pure and
>> utter bullshit (I feel strongly because I see this crap too often, the
>> result is generally very insecure children).
>>
I agree with you on that. You should see Diana's squeals of delight
when the "kiss monster" attacks - kissing her all over. She seems to
be thriving from all the attention and affection she's receiving, and
I hope she'll grow up to be an affectionate person. I said I was
going to kiss her lots when she was a baby so that I could get it all
in - I figured she'd soon reach an age where she wouldn't let me kiss
her anymore. But from what you and others have written, maybe that's
not the case. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to have a teenager who still
hugs and kisses mom
.
Best, Susan
Karina
her. And she lives next door!! My husband and I bought our house 2yrs ago
and when one started going up next door we convinced my parents to buy it!!
I was not breastfed because when my older brother was born the Dr. made my
mom express some into a cup and let it sit until it seperated and then told
her that it wasn't good enough and immediately made her bottle feed. This
resulted in all 4 of her children being bottle fed. She was only 17 at the
time and didn't know any better. :o( Anyway, my relationship with my monther
is incredible. We are best friends and I can talk to her about anything and
she can talk to me about anything. So I think that it is the way one
parents. My mom constantly hugged and kissed and loved on me when I was
growing up. I think that when it is a constant behavioural pattern there
really isn't a time when you say, "ok, no more hugs and kisses and loves."
My husband was raised in a no hugs or kisses family and he had a really hard
time adapting to mine. The first time he saw me kiss my brother hello he was
shocked!!! My brother is 12 years older than me and our father died 8 days
before I was born so he was like a father to me in some ways so it is
completely natural for us. It was hard to explain to my husband but after
almost 4 yrs of marriage I think he gets it!! :o) So to sum it up I think
that it all in your attitude about cuddles and such. If it is normal and
natural then I think that it will only go on and on. Even to your daughter's
relationships. I know that I kiss and hug and 'mug' on my little one all of
the time!! He also thinks it is wonderful to be loved on. I am sure that
breastfeeding is a major contributer for a young baby as far as intimacy and
loves but I think that any parent wanting this type of relationship with
their baby can accomplish it!!! Besides there isn't a person in this whole
world I would rather 'mug' all over then my little son!! He is soooo
adorable!! (well, I should say my husband is close!! But he's not as soft
and he's hairy!! :o)
Mommy to Tommy(04-03-99)
Morning Glories
want anyont to touch me, and if I'm feeling it particularly strongly and
need total space my 5 year old occasionally (this doesn't happen often)
gets really upset if she wants to cuddle and can't. When this does occur
only about half the time is she willing to snuggle with her daddy.
Sometimes only mom will do (and usually that's fine with me).
I'm pretty sure anthropological observations have found a trend toward
breastfed babies growing up a little closer to their parents. I'd be
willing to wager that it's even moreso with families that co-sleep. I
know for sure that anthopologists note that in societies that hold
babies and have a lot of physical contact and try not tolet them cry are
much more peaceful compared to cultures that consistently let babies cry
and strictly schedule their feedings (the most extreme being
head-hunters that rarely hold babies I think they even rig up a
contraption to hold the baby while it nurses. Now if only I could
remember where I read all that, b/c I think I'd like to re-read it!
--
Colette
l n r p l x u s a t r i p c o d o t c o m
^^^^^^reduce for email^^^^^^
Peace begins at birth. Support non-nurse midwifery.
http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/5510
Morning Glories
> I, too, grew up in a household where hugs and kisses were limited. We
> knew we were loved, but we just didn't have that touchy-feely stuff. I
> don't have a 'close' relationship with my mom, not one where I feel I
> could tell her everything. My parents were into the 'don't spoil the
> baby thing' and that definately affects one's whole self.
My mom was big on that ... "babies are very smart and can learn to
manipulate at a very young age" She advised my oldest sister to use rice
cereal in a bottle when my nephew was very young b/c he was waking too
often at night. (No wonder we all have allergies except the one that
breastfed the longest.)
> I want my kids to learn sensitivity. The best way to teach is to model.
> And, Lori, I also think AP makes a total healthy person, mentally
> spiratually and physically.
Anyone else here every have a hard time w/AP due to their opposite
upbringing? I noticed it when Amy was around three ... You know, I'm
trying NOT to model my mother's parenting techniques -- some of them,
she wasn't horrible, just very much pushing us into inedependence in
some ways, although I was allowed to be a child until kindergarten.
loriann
Morning Glories wrote:
> I'm pretty sure anthropological observations have found a trend toward
> breastfed babies growing up a little closer to their parents. I'd be
> willing to wager that it's even moreso with families that co-sleep.
Yes, good point. I think perhaps co-sleeping is possibly even more
contributory to continued physical closeness than breastfeeding alone.
Since most co-sleepers are also breastfeeding families, it's pretty hard to
extrapolate to what extent, and this is only my (biased) opinion. I'm not
putting down families who don't co-sleep as less willing to touch or be
intimate. We all do what we're most comfortable with, and if co-sleeping
feels right, it's probably the best choice.
Too many people fight their instincts on this, IMO, because we're suckered
into thinking our children will become parasitic and never be able to
separate healthily from their parents if they sleep with them. In fact,
research shows the opposite, from what I've heard.
lori
Susan Hochtman
<see...@below.net> wrote:
>
>Anyone else here every have a hard time w/AP due to their opposite
>upbringing? I noticed it when Amy was around three ... You know, I'm
>trying NOT to model my mother's parenting techniques -- some of them,
>she wasn't horrible, just very much pushing us into inedependence in
>some ways, although I was allowed to be a child until kindergarten.
>--
>Colette
>l n r p l x u s a t r i p c o d o t c o m
>^^^^^^reduce for email^^^^^^
>
>Peace begins at birth. Support non-nurse midwifery.
>http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/5510
Actually, my opposite upbringing convinced me that I had to do it a
different way. I think I turned out sort of OK in spite of my
parents, not because of them, and I still have pain connected to my
childhood. Pain that I never want Diana to experience. I mean, as
I've mentioned before, I'm 42, and before Diana was born, childhood
memories could still send me on long, painful crying jags.
When I was pregnant, and before I had ever heard of attachment
parenting, I said to my dh, "Well, I have a perfect model of how to
raise our child. Just whatever my mother did, do the opposite!" It's
actually worked out to be a pretty good guideline, and I find that I'm
healing some of my own wounds by doing it over again, from the other
side, and in a way in which I wish I had been parented. I haven't had
a crying jag since she was born - except for when I watched "Annie"
the other night. That silly show, with the singing orphans, gets me
every time!
Best, Susan
Tiffany DVirgilio
and off, but wasn't ever BF. I am still nursing my daughter at 21 months and we
have a family bed. She is incredibly cuddly and we kiss alot. She kisses daddy
alot, too. I constantly kiss and nuzzle her when she nurses or lies with
me-can't imagine it any other way. I work part time and she runs to day
care-just loves it. She only spends about 5 hours a day, 4 days a week there,
but my point is that we practice AP and she is very independent. I think she is
a pretty normal kid-not clingy at all, but I sure do treasure those sloppy
little kisses!!!
Tiffany
Karrde
>I'm pretty sure anthropological observations have found a trend toward
>breastfed babies growing up a little closer to their parents. I'd be
>willing to wager that it's even moreso with families that co-sleep.
I have done a lot of anthropological research in this area, and have found
it to be very true.
>I
>know for sure that anthopologists note that in societies that hold
>babies and have a lot of physical contact and try not tolet them cry are
>much more peaceful
True, and it makes sense when you think about it. Why wouldn't a baby LOVE
to be in its mother's warm, safe arms? or looking at it another way, why
would anyone wonder why a child cries being alone in a cold bed with a
rubber nipple in its mouth? When you have a happy baby, it is more alert
and receptive to stimulation and learning. When you teach your baby to
trust you, this builds a stable foundation on which to build the rest of
your relationship. It's just common sense.
--S.
Karina
Susan Hochtman
<Kar...@smugglers.alliance.org> wrote:
>True, and it makes sense when you think about it. Why wouldn't a baby LOVE
>to be in its mother's warm, safe arms?
Actually, now that Diana is crawling, she doesn't love being in my
arms so much. She'll lie still for a little while if she's tired or
nursing, but now all she wants to do is get down on the floor and
crawl around! I'm so insulted!
or looking at it another way, why
>would anyone wonder why a child cries being alone in a cold bed with a
>rubber nipple in its mouth? When you have a happy baby, it is more alert
>and receptive to stimulation and learning. When you teach your baby to
>trust you, this builds a stable foundation on which to build the rest of
>your relationship. It's just common sense.
>--S.
>
>
I was thinking about this, and it seems obvious. We are social
animals. Most mammals are. Dogs sleep together, and so do many (if
not all - I really don't know) mammals, for safety, warmth, or
whatever. It's an instinct.
Many if not most adults sleep with another adult - it's a very
important part of a loving relationship. If you have sex with someone
and they don't want to sleep with you afterwards, that is considered a
deep insult.
So why do we put the smallest and most vulnerable members of our race
to sleep alone, as a matter of course? Please don't flame me if you
don't co-bed - I have gone on record as saying that I think that
babies should sleep wherever everyone gets the most sleep, and
whatever works for your family is the best idea. But I'm just
wondering why we co-sleepers are considered the "odd" ones, with a new
idea. It would seem to be a very natural and old idea.
My sister actually called me and dh a "hippie" because we co-sleep
and breast-feed. I was laughing out loud - we are the farthest things
from hippies you could imagine. My husband is a very conservative
lawyer, and I, although I'm not conservative at all myself, am
definitely not the unwashed hair and reefer type. Pass the love
beads! LOL!
Best, Susan