Guys with Long hair in the office
Rajesh Raman
How do you feel about hiring guys wwho wear long hair? Yes, I do have long
hair ;).
This question is directed at guys like Jim Paradis, (a living legend ;) and
Bob Maas (the guy who doesn't know Hindi;), who do interview people. I'm
sorry I can't think of any more names. i hope I haven't offended anyone;)
--
Rajesh
Jim Paradis
: How do you feel about hiring guys wwho wear long hair? Yes, I do have long
Me? A living legend? Why am I always the last to be told these things? 8-)
Ahem. I, for one, don't take hairstyle (or any other superficial
characteristics) into consideration one way or the other when it comes
to making hiring decisions. Well, okay, I'll admit that if an
applicant came in for a software job wearing an impeccably tailored
Brooks Brothers suit, I might be a tad skeptical... but if the
applicant could carry hirself off technically, I'd ignore that little
detail 8-) 8-) 8-)
To put it another way: what I tend to look for in a candidate are technical
competence, the ability to approach real-world problems, and the ability to
work as a member of a team; all in about equal measure.
BTW - I started out my career with standard-issue men's short hair and
kept that for about five years. Since then I've let it grow, and now it's
a few inches below my shoulders. I haven't noticed any affect on my career
one way or the other.
On the other hand, that is a reflection of the kind of shops I've been
working in (systems development, UNIX internals, compilers, hardware
interfacing...). If you were to go work in the MIS department of an
insurance company, or for one of the big corporate consulting firms like
EDS, you'd face a radically different picture. There, you might be
REQUIRED to keep your hair short and to dress according to a certain
pattern... but, of course, you did your research and you knew that before
you interviewed, right? 8-) 8-) 8-)
[I've always fantasized about interviewing with EDS wearing my long
hair, beard, sandals, and tie-dye 8-) 8-) 8-) ]
--
Jim Paradis (par...@sousa.tay.dec.com)
I try to take one day at a time, but lately several days have attacked at once!
Rajesh Raman
:
: Me? A living legend? Why am I always the last to be told these things? 8-)
Well, as you can see the provocation was good enough ;) You end up with a
terribly deflated ego if no one responds to your article, you know ;)
Getting to the point, thanks for the reply. I'm not from the US and back
home long hair is frowned upon. Since I really like wearing long hair and
am learning (yes Dhamu ;) to keep it from flying helter-skelter, I was
growing a tad sad about having to lose my mane!
: To put it another way: what I tend to look for in a candidate are technical
: competence, the ability to approach real-world problems, and the ability to
: work as a member of a team; all in about equal measure.
I'm sure us freshies will keep that in mind.
: BTW - I started out my career with standard-issue men's short hair and
: kept that for about five years. Since then I've let it grow, and now it's
: a few inches below my shoulders. I haven't noticed any affect on my career
: one way or the other.
That's the catch. You started off with short hair.
--
Rajesh
Jody Hagins
*>
*>
*> How do you feel about hiring guys wwho wear long hair? Yes, I do have long
*> hair ;).
*>
*> This question is directed at guys like Jim Paradis, (a living legend ;) and
*> Bob Maas (the guy who doesn't know Hindi;), who do interview people. I'm
*> sorry I can't think of any more names. i hope I haven't offended anyone;)
I'm neither. However, in school, I had very long hair, wore an earring,
kept a face full of hair, and wore camouflage all the time. When I
went job hunting (and since), I cut the hair (now I look like a Marine
recruit, since my wife likes it :-), took out the earring, lost the
facial hair, and donned a suit (although now I wear jeans). Even after
I got my job, and would have been allowed to have long hair, my earring,
beard, and even the camos, I found that I had changed to where I like
things better now.
In a nutshell, I think you should lose the parts of your outward
appearance while interviewing. During the interview process, you can
determine if the environment is conducive for your own style. If not
don't go back if it's that important to you. However, be forewarned:
while there are some people who have maintained their strong preferences
in personal appearance and still experienced great levels of success,
they are in the minority.
*>
*> --
*> Rajesh
--
Jody Hagins -- hag...@avlin8.us.dg.com
Data General Corporation, Linthicum, MD
Rock, River, Tree, Mastodon.
Jim Paradis
: : BTW - I started out my career with standard-issue men's short hair and
: : kept that for about five years. Since then I've let it grow, and now it's
: : a few inches below my shoulders. I haven't noticed any affect on my career
: : one way or the other.
:
: That's the catch. You started off with short hair.
Correlation does not imply causation 8-) Specifically, I seriously doubt that
my short hair had *any* impact on my getting my first job. Although my
manager at that shop had short hair, he also tended to go around with about
a three-days' growth of stubble and he wore garage-mechanic and other
thrift-store shirts. His outfit never varied, regardless of whether he was
hacking code or metting with VPs. I seriously doubt that my haircut affected
his evaluation of me one way or the other 8-)
You do have a point, though: if you want to increase your chances of merely
Getting A Job, then cut your hair; you won't turn off those shops that are
tolerant, and you'll placate those shops that aren't. Of course, if working
for a shop that can't tolerate long hair is intolerable for YOU (as it is for
me), then keep it however you like.
Rajesh Raman
:
: You do have a point, though: if you want to increase your chances of merely
: Getting A Job, then cut your hair; you won't turn off those shops that are
: tolerant, and you'll placate those shops that aren't. Of course, if working
: for a shop that can't tolerate long hair is intolerable for YOU (as it is for
: me), then keep it however you like.
It is for me too as I feel that long hair, if cared for well, does not
detract from the personality. In fact, in some cases, it enhances the
personality. And I guess I wouldn't want to have my hair cut unless there's
a valid reason for having to do so.
Thanks to all who replied. It has helped.
--
Rajesh Raman
Gary Piatt
: Ahem. I, for one, don't take hairstyle (or any other superficial
: characteristics) into consideration one way or the other when it comes
: to making hiring decisions. Well, okay, I'll admit that if an
: applicant came in for a software job wearing an impeccably tailored
: Brooks Brothers suit, I might be a tad skeptical... but if the
: applicant could carry hirself off technically, I'd ignore that little
: detail 8-) 8-) 8-)
As a software engineer who is in the habit of wearing Brooks Brothers suits -
especially on interviews - I would be interested in knowing *why* you would
be skeptical. Is there something wrong with an applicant looking his best?
-garison
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
garison ellsworth piatt gar...@world.std.com or pi...@gdc.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yesterday has disappeared with the waking of the sun
And like rain touching the earth, new life has begun
_Ho`omaka_Hou_, Olomana
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Smith
I don't see a general problem with long hair, with two exceptions...
1. Dirty hair is bad, long dirty hair is worse.
2. A haircut that is unusual enough that people stop working to look at
your head (something like a 10" pink mohawk comes to mind).
--
Just the facts ma'm.....
LAPD Sgt. Joe Friday
Facts? I don't need no stinkin' facts!
Rush Limbaugh
Rajesh Raman
:
: As a software engineer who is in the habit of wearing Brooks Brothers suits -
: especially on interviews - I would be interested in knowing *why* you would
: be skeptical. Is there something wrong with an applicant looking his best?
:
: -garison
C'mon, even living legends can make mistakes ;)
--
Rajesh
Jim Paradis
Well, no... more like I oughta clarify: I didn't LITERALLY mean I was
skeptical of folks who wear BB suits. Rather, I was trying to evoke a
whole *image* by dropping the BB name: the person who's all show and
no substance. We've all met that type of person at one time or another;
the person with no innate sense of aesthetics who wears an impeccably-
tailored suit because that's what's expected... the person who can
rattle off the corporate sales pitch without a hiccup but freezes when
posed a tough question... unfortunately, I've found a LOT of these kinds
of people among the suit-wearing classes of corporate America.
Mind you, wearing a suit (even a very fine suit!) to an interview with
me is not going to diminish your chances as long as you know your stuff!
When I interview, I tend to note my first impression and then back-burner
it, preferring instead to build an impression based on what the candidate
has to *say* and how sie *says* it....
Of course, as I said elsewhere in this thread, other hiring managers
may not be so magnanimous. If you just want to Get A Job, then
the short-hair-suit-and-tie might not be a bad idea...
kevin marcus
been told to move elsewhere when inquiring about jobs, granted, not
due to my long hair, but probbaly partly that and maybe other appearance
factors (clothes?)
Nonetheless, I would think that in certain positions, "proper" hairstyle and
clothing should be a factor. Take a salesman. Most people would not
want to buy a car from someone who has long hair, just because there is a
stupid stereotype of "stoner/druggie." At one of my jobs, I worked in the
back, mainly, but occasionally came up front to talk directly with
customers, and I didnt' have any problems from my boss, but sometimes
I'd get dirty looks from customers, like, "Are yout eh technician?" And
stuff like that.
--
-- Kevin Marcus: dat...@ucrengr.ucr.edu, t...@bend.ucsd.edu
Author: TSCAN, MICHEX, RE-xxx. AntiVirus/Music BBS: (619)/457-1836.
CSLD Room Monitor Saturday, 12-5p (909)/787-2842.
Comp. Sci. Major, University of California, Riverside.
Daniel Louis Smith
> As a software engineer who is in the habit of wearing Brooks Brothers suits -
> especially on interviews - I would be interested in knowing *why* you would
> be skeptical. Is there something wrong with an applicant looking his best?
I looked my best in my wedding tuxedo, but then, you
won't find me wearing *that* to an interview :-)
I've always worn pretty much what I would wear on a
"semi-dress-up day" when I've been an interviewee. That might
be Levi's Dockers, a button up shirt, and Reebok Metro's, perhaps a
tie. I've interviewed people that have been really dressy with long
hair, and some that have been very casual with short. Makes no
difference to me. I just ask myself "can I work with this person?".
That, and their experience, is pretty much what it boils down to for me.
Then again, I'm posting from California, YMMV.
Daniel
--
d...@autodesk.com d...@netcom.com
Daniel L Smith, Autodesk, Sausalito, California, (415) 332-2344 x 2580
disclaimer: accuracy of statements corrrelates somehow to caffeine intake
Bill Foote
>Jim Paradis (par...@sousa.tay.dec.com) wrote:
>: Well, okay, I'll admit that if an
>: applicant came in for a software job wearing an impeccably tailored
>: Brooks Brothers suit, I might be a tad skeptical... but if the
>: applicant could carry hirself off technically, I'd ignore that little
>: detail 8-) 8-) 8-)
>
>As a software engineer who is in the habit of wearing Brooks Brothers suits -
>especially on interviews - I would be interested in knowing *why* you would
>be skeptical. Is there something wrong with an applicant looking his best?
Hmmm... Does wearing Brooks Brothers suits cause one to be humor-impaired,
or is it the other way around? :-)
Seriously, go to any respected CS University, and take a look at the
grad student population (and the majority of the professors). You won't see
many suits.
For whatever combination of reasons, programmers are blessed by not having
to dress up in funny, uncomfortable clothes all the time. Because of
this, when I see someone who claims to be a "programmer" but dresses like
a CPA, my first thought is "salesman". If the person is competent, I
look past my initial judgement - there's no reason to reject an intelligent
person just because of a poor choice of clothes! :-)
--
Bill Foote bi...@pds.com
PDS Corp, Los Angeles, CA USA uunet!promdist!bill
Hal Pomeranz
>
> That's the catch. You started off with short hair.
>
I started off my career with a ponytail that fell well below my
shoulders. Two caveats: (1) my first boss may have had a slight
prejudice for long-haired guys, and (2) I'm a UNIX Sys Admin working
in R&D type environments for the most part.
Since that first job I've noticed a curious kind of reverse psychology
at work. Interviewers seem to think, "Wow, he must really be good if
he's worked XX years and never had to cut his hair." I have also
turned down jobs where they asked me to cut my hair (or wear a tie,
but that's another issue).
Good luck. I hope the job market hasn't gotten to the point where
employers are now able to dictate personal appearance to their new
applicants.
--
===============================================================================
Hal Pomeranz pome...@imagen.com pome...@cs.swarthmore.edu
System/Network Manager "Living in fear will overcome us someday and
QMS Imagen Division eventually destroy us all." --Law & Order
Robert Knowles
in the 70's during my school days. We have a few programmers with
long hair working at the engineering company where I work and they
usually do not have any problems. In fact since we have been laying
off hundreds of workers and I still see some of the long haired guys
around, there must not be much of a bias against them. I can only
recall one comment ever made about the subject in my presence. When
one of our old VMS system programmers (who had very long red hair -
a real attention getter) left the elevator, one of the older engineers
said "Boy, he must really know his stuff". So it will still get some
attention. I'm not so sure how this would come across in an interview
where you may be screened out by people based on appearances. On the
interview form we are required to return to HR folks after interviewing
someone we have to rate their "professional appearance". I usually say
good. The only exception was when I interviewed someone who was dressed
like one of the characters in Miami Vice. But he didn't know his stuff
anyway. In my opinion, pastel suits and pointy shoes are much worse than
long hair. But we aren't hiring anyway, so it's pretty much a moot point.
Henry Mensch
->2. A haircut that is unusual enough that people stop working to look at
-> your head (something like a 10" pink mohawk comes to mind).
if i've hired people who feel compelled to drop their work because
they see a 10" pink mohawk then i've fucked up.
this is the 90's; sometimes people have mohawks. we still manage to
live our lives and get our work done.
--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc. / <he...@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy." -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
Henry Mensch
Jody Hagins
*> When I interview, I tend to note my first impression and then back-burner
*> it, preferring instead to build an impression based on what the candidate
*> has to *say* and how sie *says* it....
^^^
This is not a flame nor is it bait... Is this some neuter gender for
he/she?
Rick Davis
> --
> Rajesh
We have more of a problem hiring guys who wear ties..
--
R G B Spectrum "Just like the universe,
950 Marina Village Parkway as I get older I expand
Alameda, California and get cooler"
ri...@rgb.com - Joe Mancini
Jeff Jensen
If you think that people AREN'T going to at least do a double take,
look, and possibly comment about a 10" pink mohawk, then you have
been living in a cave.
Besides, if you had a 10" pink mohawk, and no one noticed, think
about how bad you would feel. :-)
Nothing against 10" pink mohawks, it's the 6'5" real Mohawks that scare
me.
--
Jeff Jensen Neocad Inc. 2585 Central Ave. Boulder, CO 80301
(303) 442-9121 X116 Internet: jen...@neocad.com UUCP: neocad!jensen
Judy McMillin
>
> I don't see a general problem with long hair, with two exceptions...
>
>1. Dirty hair is bad, long dirty hair is worse.
>
>2. A haircut that is unusual enough that people stop working to look at
> your head (something like a 10" pink mohawk comes to mind).
Good point! During an interview for a job, you don't want
people to focus on your appearance more than your abilities.
Considering that you will be interviewed, or at least screened,
by "businessheads" it is in your best interest to look your
best and look conservative. That way people won't be
wondering if you're okay, even though you look bizarre.
Judy
Judy McMillin
>In article <9...@esun179.gdc.com> pi...@gdc.COM (Gary Piatt) writes:
>
>For whatever combination of reasons, programmers are blessed by not having
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
to dress up in funny, uncomfortable clothes all the time. Because of
>this, when I see someone who claims to be a "programmer" but dresses like
>a CPA, my first thought is "salesman". If the person is competent, I
>look past my initial judgement - there's no reason to reject an intelligent
>person just because of a poor choice of clothes! :-)
You won't like this, so flame away, I'm prepared...
I work around lots of programmers. They tend to dress
"funky?" because most of them have no people skills. They
want high-paying jobs with a lot of autonomy but most are
unwilling to "play the game." Around here, we call them
"prima donas." In most work environments, programmers
can dress however they're comfortable; however, to get
those jobs, you have to make it through the management
screen. Management almost always consists of very conservative
people (surprise--this is a characteristic of management).
Most of you hold management in disdain, and don't even have
the savvy to play the game since they, by definition, are
correct.
I for one, who have "played the game" for many years, and
done quite well for a dumb high school dropout, have no
sympathy for some of these whiners who would rather starve
then get a haircut. When I decided to have a baby, I had
to give up forever my youthful figure; life's full of
tradeoffs -- a haircut seems a minimal sacrifice.
Okay, go ahead and shoot back! Judy
Roger B.A. Klorese
>If you think that people AREN'T going to at least do a double take,
>look, and possibly comment about a 10" pink mohawk, then you have
>been living in a cave.
No, *you* have. Henry's been living in San Francisco, where we *don't*
notice.
--
ROGER B.A. KLORESE +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rog...@unpc.QueerNet.ORG {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when
you fall, you fly." -- N. Gaiman
Nigel S Pope
I'm not going to shoot Judy, but I would suggest that next time some arsehole
asks you about how many kids you are going to have and what sort of birth-
control you use - ask them how much money they have available to pay-out on
discrimination/harrassment suits.
Talking of suits, I've worn one ever since I began in the industry and I don't
find it uncomfortable at all. At least nobody can tell if I have an Interview
to go to.
--
ns...@juts.amdahl.com: 'All opinions mine - Not my employers...so there'
"This here's the Wattle, the symbol of our land. You can stick it
in a bottle, or you can hold it in your hand." (MP - Circa 1970)
Steve Shapiro
In article <1993May13.1...@technology.com>, ju...@technology.com (Judy
McMillin) writes...
> You won't like this, so flame away, I'm prepared...
oooh! A challenge! 8-)
> Most of you hold management in disdain, and don't even have
> the savvy to play the game since they, by definition, are
> correct.
Who was it in this newsgroup who recently said something about this being some
sort of BS? Someone also referred to a book which argues towards the 'whatever
it takes' attitude.
People are going to have to learn that there is a 'real world' out there and
that the world is not going to play the game by their rules. They will
therefore have to play the game by the world's rules.
Right, wrong or indifferent, it doesn't matter too much does it? Its great to
have your on set of principles, morals, ethics, etc., but its also nice to eat,
have a place to live, etc.
Now I am NOT advocating the abandonment of morals or ethics, but I am trying to
indicate that when we don't have total control over something, we need to
identify those aspects of it which we can control and make it work to our
advantage.
This is what I mean when I refer to 'creating your own success or failure'. You
may not be in control of everything (then again, who it?), but there are
certainly ways in which you can do things so that it is to your advantage or in
your best interest.
> I for one, who have "played the game" for many years, and
> done quite well for a dumb high school dropout,
...not to mention a woman... (ouch! 8-)...
> have no
> sympathy for some of these whiners who would rather starve
> then get a haircut. When I decided to have a baby, I had
> to give up forever my youthful figure;
...got news for you, there are lots of women out there who never had kids and
who still lost it...at least you have something to show for the effort...(at
least that's what I keep telling my wife... 8-)
> life's full of tradeoffs -- a haircut seems a minimal sacrifice.
Haircut, beard, moustache, underarms...heck, where do we draw the line as
individuals? Will these 'community standards' never cease? Don't they realize
that I'm from a different community? (Is there such a community as that of the
unemployed v/s that of the employed?).
> Okay, go ahead and shoot back! Judy
It reminds me of the George Carlin routine in which he asks the rhetorical
question about what we would be willing to do for $10 and about what we would
be willing to spend $10 on...
Regards,
Steve.
/*******************************************************************
* Steve Shapiro * All views and opinions expressed *
* SKS Computer Consulting, Inc. * are my own and are offered as-is *
********************************************************************
* Steve....@f440.n101.z1.fidonet.org BBS: (508) 664-6354 N81 *
*******************************************************************/
Jeff Jensen
I'm sorry, but San Francisco != The Known Universe.
There are plenty of mohawk's here in Boulder, but one would still get
noticed in a business environment.
Judy McMillin
>
>In article <1993May13.1...@technology.com>, ju...@technology.com (Judy
>McMillin) writes...
>
>> life's full of tradeoffs -- a haircut seems a minimal sacrifice.
>
>Haircut, beard, moustache, underarms...heck, where do we draw the line as
>individuals? Will these 'community standards' never cease? Don't they realize
>that I'm from a different community? (Is there such a community as that of the
>unemployed v/s that of the employed?).
>
[more deleted]
I know that in the ranks of computer professionals,
there are a lot of "long hair" types. I'm only trying
to point out that the job market is tight right now,
and if you don't know what kind of people will be
interviewing you, it's best to err on the side of
conservatism. When you see the kind of people you
will be working with, you can decide if a less
"corporate image" is what you want.
Most of the computer professionals around here look
shall we say, pretty casual... However, when they
attend business meetings, or the like, they dress
and groom their best; they do understand that there
are times when they are representing the company, not
themselves. Maybe that is a good reason to go to an
interview looking like the kind of person the company
wants representing it, rather than a statement of
your attitudes.
Just a thought...
Judy
ris shows
not only
Paul Petrucelly
>
> I know that in the ranks of computer professionals,
> there are a lot of "long hair" types. I'm only trying
> to point out that the job market is tight right now,
> Maybe that is a good reason to go to an
> interview looking like the kind of person the company
> wants representing it, rather than a statement of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> your attitudes.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
Love it....
I am a long haired software engineer. "Long hair" oh probably a 1/3 the way
down my back. Since I am rather big (200 lbs) I keep the sides short, and
pulled back in a pony tail, that way I don't look like a biker (not that there
is anything more wrong with bikers then anyone else), I just don't want
people thinking I'm going to rip of their face if they don't like my design.
Most people who meet me think I am a liberal, who probably does drug, drinks, and
does whatever he want. I just love it. First I don't drink at all, I don't
do any drugs at all. I perfer not to take asprin. I am very conservative in
much of my thinking, and am a christian. Within my church which is very
conservative, its a gas when I'm involved in the service, because many members
feel it is an abomination for a man to have long hair. There I am making them
aware of how much we all prejudge.
Would it be fair to say that most young men who are very clean cut, prepie
looking cheat on their wives, or that blonds are bimbos, or that a good
looking woman got to be manager because......
I'm not sure what attitude you are refering to in above your statement. If you mean
that since I have long hair you would not hire me because your prejudgement is
that long haired men are drug using, liberal, homosexuals.... I'd rather not
work for your company......
Therefore my hair has served me well... although your prejudice has done you
a disservice since you incorrectly pigeon holed me.
prp
P.S. I wear my hair long because I hate people who look like yuppies....,
they drink, do drugs, cheat on their wives, and voted for CLINTON...
and I for one do not want to be associated with them.
Hows that (mode sarcastic guys and girls)
Scott Barman
> Most of the computer professionals around here look
> shall we say, pretty casual... However, when they
> attend business meetings, or the like, they dress
> and groom their best; they do understand that there
> are times when they are representing the company, not
> themselves. Maybe that is a good reason to go to an
> interview looking like the kind of person the company
> wants representing it, rather than a statement of
> your attitudes.
I just love this. My hairstyle is giving a statement of my attitude!
Let's forget the quality of my work, my past relationships with my
co-workers, employers, customers, and various colleagues; Let's forget
that I may be able to do the job of two people (some people have
"accused" me of trying to do that); let's forget that I could be as
well mannered as anyone else and can conduct a business meeting with the
best of them and even get away with selling someone the Brooklyn Bridge;
but we can't hire me because I fell my hair looks better a a bit on the
longish side. Oh, it's well groomed and kept clean, but we can't have
someone who would take pride in his appearance by allowing him the
priveledge of not following the crowd and do something that just looks
better just so we can have conformity!
> Just a thought...
Yea... just one more: I can only wonder whose hair is longer, Ms.
McMillin's or mine? If her's goes past the shoulders, I will have to
conceede. If it is, does it mean she could do a better job than I can?
--
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ole...@staff.tc.umn.edu
sha...@sofbas.enet.dec.com (Steve Shapiro) writes, among other things:
>People are going to have to learn that there is a 'real world' out there and
>that the world is not going to play the game by their rules. They will
>therefore have to play the game by the world's rules.
The rules of the "real world" are no great mystery to me or others. The
problem is that, often times, rules are followed simply because they are
rules and not because they hold merit. To demand a certain attribute (that
doesn't directly affect a person's ability to do their job) without a valid
reason is a rule that *must* be challenged, whether it's their hair, weight,
skin, sex, or handicap.
+-------------------> Signature Block : Version 4.5 <---------------------+
| |
| "The dearer a thing is, the cheaper as a general rule we sell it." |
| --- Samuel Butler |
| |
+----------------> Copyright (c) 1993 by Doc O'Leary <------------------+
John Ball [MSAI]
>> I know that in the ranks of computer professionals,
>> there are a lot of "long hair" types. I'm only trying
>> to point out that the job market is tight right now,
>>
>
>
>I am a long haired software engineer. "Long hair" oh probably a 1/3 the way
>down my back. Since I am rather big (200 lbs) I keep the sides short, and
>pulled back in a pony tail, that way I don't look like a biker (not that there
>is anything more wrong with bikers then anyone else), I just don't want
>people thinking I'm going to rip of their face if they don't like my design.
>
Love it too...
My hair is about 3/4 the way down my back. I usually wear it with
the sides down. (Even before I lost 25lbs and weighed 200lbs.) I don't
think it makes (or made) me look like a biker, but that's probably because
of the way I dress. (Mostly "business casual" with the occasional suit and
often a tie.) Most bikers I know are really fairly nice once you get to know
them.
>Most people who meet me think I am a liberal, who probably does drug,
>drinks, and
>does whatever he want. I just love it. First I don't drink at all, I don't
>do any drugs at all. I perfer not to take asprin. I am very conservative in
>much of my thinking, and am a christian.
>
I have the same problem with people prejudging me. I don't drink, smoke, do
drugs, and I'm not homosexual. (And there's nothing wrong with anyone who
is/does any of these things!) I am not a christian although I do have many
christian beliefs and I am active with a couple christian organizations.
>Would it be fair to say that most young men who are very clean cut, prepie
>looking cheat on their wives, or that blonds are bimbos, or that a good
>looking woman got to be manager because......
>
In the general case it would probably be accurate, but it would not be fair.
>you would not hire me because your prejudgement is
>that long haired men are drug using, liberal, homosexuals.... I'd rather not
>work for your company......
>
>Therefore my hair has served me well... although your prejudice has done you
>a disservice since you incorrectly pigeon holed me.
>
I coulnd't agree more. I have found my hair is useful in determining the
attitude of a prospective company, and it helps me avoid pig-headed,
close-minded companies that I would not be happy working for.
>P.S. I wear my hair long because I hate people who look like yuppies....,
> they drink, do drugs, cheat on their wives, and voted for CLINTON...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What's wrong with that?
> and I for one do not want to be associated with them.
> Hows that (mode sarcastic guys and girls)
>
>
John
Henry Mensch
-> ... if you don't know what kind of people will be
-> interviewing you, it's best to err on the side of
-> conservatism.
if you don't know "what kind" of people you will interview with then
you have not done your homework and should postpone the interview,
since you are not fully prepared for it.
Lon Stowell
>
>I'm not sure what attitude you are refering to in above your statement. If you mean
>that since I have long hair you would not hire me because your prejudgement is
>that long haired men are drug using, liberal, homosexuals.... I'd rather not
>work for your company......
>
>Therefore my hair has served me well... although your prejudice has done you
>a disservice since you incorrectly pigeon holed me.
>
Sadly, more than a few interviewers will indeed prejudge you
based on your hair. But as you've noted, interviewing is a
two-way street (as long as hunger isn't involved)...and would you
really WANT to work for such a company?
Be of cheer, I've worked for companies where some of the men have
more than long hair...some even wore dresses to work...and nobody
really gave a darn.
>
>P.S. I wear my hair long because I hate people who look like yuppies....,
> they drink, do drugs, cheat on their wives, and voted for CLINTON...
> and I for one do not want to be associated with them.
> Hows that (mode sarcastic guys and girls)
>
Strange, I wear shorter hair because I actually DO all those
things, and I don't want anyone to assume I do. >:-)
John C. Randolph
> ju...@technology.com (Judy McMillin) wrote:
> -> ... if you don't know what kind of people will be
> -> interviewing you, it's best to err on the side of
> -> conservatism.
>
> if you don't know "what kind" of people you will interview with then
> you have not done your homework and should postpone the interview,
> since you are not fully prepared for it.
When I do this sort of homework, I can usually discover whether the company
in question is worth working for. (I.E. are they doers or posers, C hackers or
COBOL drones, will they pay what I want, or try to haggle me down?) Usually
all it takes to find out is to ask about them on the net. People can be very
candid in e-mail!
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
John C. Randolph
Information Technology Solutions,
400 W. Erie, Chicago, IL 60610 Phone: (312) 587-2000
j...@its.com, jo...@its.com, john_r...@its.com
Pick an alias, any alias. NeXTMail invited!
Disclaimer: I take full responsibility for all opinions
expressed anywhere, at any time, by anyone.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Elkins
#ju...@technology.com (Judy McMillin) wrote:
#-> ... if you don't know what kind of people will be
#-> interviewing you, it's best to err on the side of
#-> conservatism.
#
>if you don't know "what kind" of people you will interview with then
>you have not done your homework and should postpone the interview,
>since you are not fully prepared for it.
>
How exactly do you propose to find out if a company discriminates against
men with long hair? They certainly aren't going to admit it and it seems
a bit too circumstantial to assume that they have this bias just because
most/all of the employees have short hair.
---
-- Matt C. Elkins |Theres a thought that fills your mind, A vision
|of a time, when knowledge was confined. And
elk...@athena.ecs.csus.edu|then we wonder how machines can steal each others
|dreams. From points that are unseen...It's real
Jonathan P Cornish
specific guidelines in their manual. About being neatly groomed.
Although it isn't in there, it's a known fact around the office (I
work for the corporate HQ) that you don't have a beard. Moustache
is fine, but NO BEARDS. Well, I bucked the system and grew one.
Had a LOT of comments made. Only one guy who really gave me a LOT of
grief about it, and I told him "I don't recall seeing it in the book."
Anyway, I finally shaved. Partially because I wanted, partially
because I WAS beginnning to feel a little nervous about it.
My feeling is, if you're well-groomed and trimmed, there's no reason
why you shouldn't be allowed to have a beard, even if you ARE in a
very business-oriented situation on a corporate level.
P D H
>ju...@technology.com (Judy McMillin) wrote:
>-> ... if you don't know what kind of people will be
>-> interviewing you, it's best to err on the side of
>-> conservatism.
>
>if you don't know "what kind" of people you will interview with then
>you have not done your homework and should postpone the interview,
>since you are not fully prepared for it.
Considering the way the market is, with quite a number of jobs and
far more applicants, the reality is that you have to apply to a very
large number of jobs just to statistically get anywhere.
Therefore...
Doing research about each company is simply NOT PRACTICAL!
Judy McMillin
>P.S. I wear my hair long because I hate people who look like yuppies....,
> they drink, do drugs, cheat on their wives, and voted for CLINTON...
> and I for one do not want to be associated with them.
> Hows that (mode sarcastic guys and girls)
>
I haven't prejudged "you" or anybody. I'm simply
pointing out that many people do exactly that (as
you pointed out in your posting). People searching
for a job should be aware of that.
Why do you "prejudge" anybody who voted for Clinton
> by saying "they" drink, .... ?
Judy
Judy McMillin
>In article <1993May17.2...@technology.com> ju...@technology.com (Judy McMillin) writes:
>
> interview looking like the kind of person the company
>> wants representing it, rather than a statement of
>> your attitudes.
>
>I just love this. My hairstyle is giving a statement of my attitude!
>
Yes, it marks you as a nonconformist; there's
nothing wrong with being a nonconformist. I believe
that's good. However, businesses are more likely
to be conservative and if an applicant does not
L know, he or she may want to be cautious during
the interview if he or she really wants the job.
et's forget the quality of my work, my past relationships with my
>co-workers, employers, customers, and various colleagues; Let's forget
>
A job interviewer does not know any of the things
you mentioned.
>Yea... just one more: I can only wonder whose hair is longer, Ms.
>McMillin's or mine? If her's goes past the shoulders, I will have to
>conceede. If it is, does it mean she could do a better job than I can?
Call it discrimination if you want, but nobody
seems to care if women have long hair. Besides,
I'm not looking for a job.
Judy
John Fidder
. far more applicants, the reality is that you have to apply to a very .
. large number of jobs just to statistically get anywhere. .
. .
. Therefore... .
. .
. Doing research about each company is simply NOT PRACTICAL! .
.............................................................................
Actually, since there is much more competition than normal, knowing
everything you possibly can about a prospective employer is a
bigger plus than you can imagine. If the interviewer were to ask
you what you knew about the compnay, you should be able to say
something like:
"I have done some research on {Company X} to make sure the company
and I could fulfill each others needs. I noticed the company has
had some lagging sales in the past few periods. I think that has
to do with the fact that President Smith reduced the advertising
budget and decreased by half the number of data entry personnel. I
think that if the data entry personnel were put back on the staff,
we could better measure the type of person who buys our products
and then put some extra money in to the advertising campaign. That
should increase the sales dramatically. I have researched several
other areas as well, if you'd like to hear about them."
The interviewer will most likely make the decision to hire you at
that moment. Not bad for 2-3 hours of library work!
===> John
---
. MegaMail 2.10 #0.It is easier to get forgiveness than permission.
Paul Petrucelly
For everyone...
I am not sure how to show my New York sarcasim other then putting
mode sarcastic after a sarcastic statement. My P.S. was prejudice
statement which was made to make a point.
paul
Christopher A Diel
: In article <1993May17....@ryn.mro4.dec.com> sha...@sofbas.enet.dec.com (Steve Shapiro) writes:
: >
: >In article <1993May13.1...@technology.com>, ju...@technology.com (Judy
: >McMillin) writes...
: >
: [stuff deleted]
:
: >> life's full of tradeoffs -- a haircut seems a minimal sacrifice.
I suppose that all depends on who you are and what your values are. I
am still a student, so as of yet, I don't have to worry about it.
BUT, while I was on coop with IBM for 8 months, I was required to cut
my hair, remove my ear ring, and wear clothes that were absolutely
uncomfortable to me. I felt stifled. I understand that jobs are
difficult to find, but I was working in a position that required
absolutely no face to face contact with customers. If my employer
requires that convert myself into his image of corporate America,
maybe I should consider changing my profession. Which I did. Now I'm
pushing to be a college professor. I still work with computers, but
as a free-lance computer service and education company. I keep myself
well groomed at all times, but the pecularities of my looks shouldn't
be a basis of job performance.
Chris
--
/ / Christopher Diel
________ ________/ ____ / cd...@dante.nmsu.edu
/ / / / /___/ / cd...@freedom.nmsu.edu
/______ . /_______/ / /___ /__ -All I ask is that you think-
Johnson
=). Considering the way the market is, with quite a number of jobs and .
=). far more applicants, the reality is that you have to apply to a very .
=). large number of jobs just to statistically get anywhere. .
=). .
=). Therefore... .
=). .
=). Doing research about each company is simply NOT PRACTICAL! .
=).............................................................................
It is if you can cut the required number of interviews. Thirty four-hour
interviews take longer than ten four-hour interviews, each with four hours
of research. Just enough research to demonstrate interest and initiative
can be a very big plus, and is more impressive than a scattershot approach.
=)
=)"I have done some research on {Company X} to make sure the company
=)and I could fulfill each others needs. I noticed the company has
=)had some lagging sales in the past few periods. I think that has
=)to do with the fact that President Smith reduced the advertising
=)budget and decreased by half the number of data entry personnel. I
=)think that if the data entry personnel were put back on the staff,
=)we could better measure the type of person who buys our products
=)and then put some extra money in to the advertising campaign. That
=)should increase the sales dramatically. I have researched several
=)other areas as well, if you'd like to hear about them."
Well, the impact of this would depend on the company--you could be
percieved either as an aggressive and creative idea source, or as a
self-important troublemaker who thinks he knows better than the
established decision makers at the company. I'd take the opportunity
to display my knowledge of the company, but be more reticent about
phrasing my opinions in this way--I'd put them in question form,
such as "Why was the decision to cut back the data entry personnel
made? It would appear that the value of the demographic information
outweighed their salaries." However, using your own style tends to
be a good filter in ensuring that you won't be hired by the type of
company you don't want to work for.
However, this example brings up a very important and useful hint in
interviewing--the term "we." By thinking and talking of yourself as
part of the company, it reinforces the meme that you are hired, and
influences the interviewer to follow up by hiring you. It also
indicates some loyalty and sense of community.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Johnson" | Behind every absurdity there lies a basic truth. |
| joh...@wes.mot.com | Behind every basic truth there lies an absurdity. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Motorola may share these views, but that's not where the smart money is. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Margaret Mikulska
[Somebody else writes:]
>. Considering the way the market is, with quite a number of jobs and .
>. far more applicants, the reality is that you have to apply to a very .
>. large number of jobs just to statistically get anywhere. .
>. Doing research about each company is simply NOT PRACTICAL! .
>
>everything you possibly can about a prospective employer is a
>bigger plus than you can imagine. If the interviewer were to ask
>you what you knew about the compnay, you should be able to say
>something like:
>
>"I have done some research on {Company X} to make sure the company
>and I could fulfill each others needs. I noticed the company has
>had some lagging sales in the past few periods. I think that has
>to do with the fact that President Smith reduced the advertising
>budget and decreased by half the number of data entry personnel. I
>think that if the data entry personnel were put back on the staff,
>we could better measure the type of person who buys our products
>and then put some extra money in to the advertising campaign. That
>should increase the sales dramatically. I have researched several
>other areas as well, if you'd like to hear about them."
>
>The interviewer will most likely make the decision to hire you at
>that moment. Not bad for 2-3 hours of library work!
I don't see a smiley here. Basically, what you suggest is telling your
prospective employer: "Your company is in bad shape because your
management is stupid. I know better what to do so hire me".
Just what they want to hear from somebody who knows the company only
from some promotional material found in the library.
By all means, do your research, but tell them you know where and why
they are so good that you want to work for them.
I really hope you're not serious.
-Margaret Mikulska
miku...@astro.princeton.edu
SURESH KANAGALINGAM
29 Parsell Square
Scarborough, Ontario
M1B 2A5
Canada
May 27, 1993
Attn: To whom it may concern
============================
Dear Sir/Madam,
I graduated from York University with Specialized Honours in Computer Science
and looking for an opportunity to work as a Software Developer a company where
I could apply my theoritical konwledge combined with my practical work
experience to serve your company well.
I am confident that my qualifications make me an ideal candidate for a company
as a Software Developer. As well as being interested in and knowledgeable about
the process involved in software development, I have well-developed problem
solving skills and can work effectively with individuals of varying age and
backgrounds. I am willing to relocate anywhere in the North American continent.
In my academic program, I have achieved academic Honours in the form of "Nation
al Dean's List" that includes only one-half of one percent of the United
State's top University Students and "Chair's Honour Roll" for mathematics for
1990/91 at York University.
I especially enjoy actively participating in projects such as the one I worked
with a professor where I developed a software for "Polygon Triangulation" in
linear time. I also gained experience through other projects I did at York
University and the inventory control system I developed to a store.
I have included my resume below. If anyboby finds my qualifications suitable
for his/her company please send me an e-mail at
cs90...@ariel.yorku.ca - OR -
cotact me at the above address
Yours truly
Suresh Kanagalingam
SURESH KANAGALINGAM
29 Parsell Square
Scarborough, Ontario
M1B 2A5
Phone (416) 282-2870
e-mail: cs90...@ariel.yorku.ca
OBJECTIVE:
Seeking a challenging position as a Computer Programmer in an envir-
onment where extensive knowledge of software and system development
can be gained to further my academic knowledge.
EDUCATION:
YORK UNIVERSITY, Toronto, Ontario, 1993
Bachelor of Science Degree in Computer Science (Specialized
Honours)
Main Courses:
* Operating System Design * Program Verification
* Software Design * File Structure
* Data Base Management * Data Communication
* Signals and Systems * Computer Automata Theory
UNIVERSITY OF HOUSTON, Houston, Texas, 1988
Successfully Completed one year in a Computer Science program
INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGICAL STUDIES, Sri Lanka, 1987
Associate Degree in Computer Science
ACHIEVEMENTS:
* Selected for the "National Dean's List" in the USA. This
list includes only one-half of one percent of the United
State's top University students each year.
* Selected for the "Dean's List" for 1988/89, University
of Houston
* "Chair's Honour Roll" for 1990/91 for Mathematics,
York University
* Designed and developed an inventory control system to a
video store
* Worked on a Project with a professor in a new theory
for "time complexity in polygon triangulation"
SPECIAL SKILLS:
* Extensive working knowledge of C, PL/1, Pascal,
Modula-2, FORTRAN and SQL
* Experience in VAX digital computers,
DEC 2100 workstations,
Sun4 Sparc, and
PC's such as IBM compatible and Formula-7
* Extensive knowledge of operating systems such as UNIX,
VAX/VMS, CP/M, and MS-DOS
* Good working experience in MS-DOS Windows environment
and VM/SP
EMPLOYMENT EXPERIENCE:
September 1992 Tutoring in Computer Science subjects, for High School
to Present and University Students.
High School
* Introduction to Computer Science
* Pascal Programming
University
* 'C' Programming
* Data Structure
September 1992 Linda Kaye & Associates Ltd., Toronto, Ontario
to Dec. 1992 Assignment in Qualtec Processing Inc., Markham
(Part Time) Process Clerk
* Processed credit card invoices
* Balanced daily cash reports
* Handed dealer complaints
September 1989 Esso Petroleum Canada, Toronto, Ontario
to July 1992 Senior Process Clerk
* Processed credit card invoices
* Balanced daily cash reports
* Prepared control sheets for computer input
* Handed dealer complaints
March 1989 On Line Personnel Corp., Toronto, Ontario
to August 1989 Assignment in Imperial Oil Ltd.
* Processed credit card invoices
* Handed dealer complaints
January 1989 University of Houston, Houston, Texas
to May 1988 Teaching Assistant
* Gave technical assistance to students who used
Modula-2 to develop computer programs
* Marked class assignments
* Advised and assisted students in developing
computer programs
February 1988 Target Ltd., Clear Lake, Texas
To May 1988 Data Entry Clerk
References available upon request
SURESH KANAGALINGAM
John Fidder
. prospective employer: "Your company is in bad shape because your .
. management is stupid. I know better what to do so hire me". .
. Just what they want to hear from somebody who knows the company only .
. from some promotional material found in the library. .
. .
. By all means, do your research, but tell them you know where and why .
. they are so good that you want to work for them. .
.............................................................................
If you could tell them why problems that they already know about
(such as lagging sales) could be occurring, I think that's a lot
better than sticking your nose up their hindquarters, patting them
on the back, and saying "Good job, ole' chap!" Most companies are
looking for problem-solvers, not people who would continue to do
the exact same things as the old employee.
===> John
---
. MegaMail 2.10 #0.INTERNET E-Mail: cccbbs!john....@uceng.uc.edu
P D H
>Actually, since there is much more competition than normal, knowing
>everything you possibly can about a prospective employer is a
>bigger plus than you can imagine. If the interviewer were to ask
>you what you knew about the compnay, you should be able to say
>something like:
>
>"I have done some research on {Company X} to make sure the company
>and I could fulfill each others needs. I noticed the company has
>had some lagging sales in the past few periods. I think that has
>to do with the fact that President Smith reduced the advertising
>budget and decreased by half the number of data entry personnel. I
>think that if the data entry personnel were put back on the staff,
>we could better measure the type of person who buys our products
>and then put some extra money in to the advertising campaign. That
>should increase the sales dramatically. I have researched several
>other areas as well, if you'd like to hear about them."
>
>The interviewer will most likely make the decision to hire you at
>that moment. Not bad for 2-3 hours of library work!
Are you applying for CEO? VP of Marketing?
If I were the manager of a technical department hiring technical
people (programmers, engineers, etc.) these kinds of things would
not impress me at all. Maybe that would keep me from ever becoming
the manager, but then at least I would know it was a "poser shop".
I'd be more impressed if the candidate had at least studied up on
the type of things she would have to work with (our computer systems
for a programmer job, for example) if they didn't already have the
literal experience.
And guys with long hair would be just as equally considered as women
with mohawks.
Al Aldrich
>BUT, while I was on coop with IBM for 8 months, I was required to cut
>my hair, remove my ear ring, and wear clothes that were absolutely
>uncomfortable to me. I felt stifled. I understand that jobs are
Interesting.. I have a friend who has worked for the PC division of
IBM for 17 years and has always had long hair and wears and earring.
I guess there are different philosophys in the different IBM's..
al
--
Paul Petrucelly
From what I have seen Christopher is correct about the hair at IBM.
I got out of school back in in '81 and when interviewing, it was made
quite clear that long hair was out at IBM. I'm sure whether different
divisions may have had different standard, but I did not see it. From
'84 thru '87 I worked for HP, spent quite a bit of time at IBM in Tucson.
While there may have been some individuals that had long hair, and earings
(I know Tucson was not the PC division) I certainly do not remember anything
other then shirts, and ties (yes they also wore pants and shoes). There was one
Phd down there who was developing a compiler, and toolset for them and I
remember as him as not fitting the mold, but even he did not have long hair.
He just didn't wear a tie, and that was enough to stand out.
By the way, which division was building PCs in 1976? I was not into computers
back then (not a flame just curious).
paul
John Fidder
....rom:P D H...On: 5/28/1993.....CCCBBS Cincinnati, OH................... .
.............. .
............. .
. Are you applying for CEO? VP of Marketing? .
. .
. If I were the manager of a technical department hiring technical .
. people (programmers, engineers, etc.) these kinds of things would .
. not impress me at all. Maybe that would keep me from ever becoming .
. the manager, but then at least I would know it was a "poser shop". .
.............................................................................
Actually, YES, I WOULD be applying for a business position. Not
EVERYBODY here is a computer guru. I probably should have phrased
my message so it could show computer skills, but I don't know what
most programmers do!
===> John
---
. MegaMail 2.10 #0.C:DOS C:DOS\RUN C:DOS\RUN\WINDOWS C:DOS\RUN\SLOW
Al Aldrich
I don't know if it was PC's then.. but the location is Boca Raton..
I think my friend started in upstate New York.. he says he has had
his hair long the whole time though..
al
>By the way, which division was building PCs in 1976? I was not into computers
>back then (not a flame just curious).
>paul
--
Judy McMillin
>In article 12...@technology.com, ju...@technology.com (Judy McMillin) writes:
>>In article <1993May18....@schbbs.mot.com> petr...@phx.sectel.mot.com writes:
>>>In article 20...@technology.com, ju...@technology.com (Judy McMillin) writes:
>>>>
>>> [stuff deleted]
>>
>
>
>I am not sure how to show my New York sarcasim other then putting
>mode sarcastic after a sarcastic statement. My P.S. was prejudice
>statement which was made to make a point.
>
>paul
>
which is pretty narrowminded, I am finding out -- thanks
to patient people like you who bring it to my attention!
> PS: Too bad that you have to "draw a picture" for some
of us, and then we don't even notice it! What does a "mode
sarcastic" look like?
PPS: I'm NOT being sarcastic; I'm serious.
Judy
>
Judy McMillin
>Judy McMillin (ju...@technology.com) wrote:
>: In article <1993May17....@ryn.mro4.dec.com> sha...@sofbas.enet.dec.com (Steve Shapiro) writes:
>: >
>: >In article <1993May13.1...@technology.com>, ju...@technology.com (Judy
>: >McMillin) writes...
>: >
>: [stuff deleted]
>:
>requires that convert myself into his image of corporate America,
>maybe I should consider changing my profession. Which I did. Now I'm
>pushing to be a college professor. I still work with computers, but
>as a free-lance computer service and education company. I keep myself
>well groomed at all times, but the pecularities of my looks shouldn't
>be a basis of job performance.
>
>Chris
>
computer people I know are have not "converted themselves
into the corporate image," to put it mildly. They may have
done so temporarily to get their jobs, but soon reverted
to their "computer geek" personas. (That is meant in a nice
way, not critical). The pecularities of your looks are not
a basis of your abilities; but in most companies the personnel
department is somewhat conservative (that's the nature of
business, ya know). Even though they're not the ones who
make the hire/not hire decision, you have to get through
their barrier.
Judy
Judy McMillin
>In article <9121.9...@cccbbs.UUCP>, john....@cccbbs.UUCP (John Fidder) writes:
>
outweighed their salaries." However, using your own style tends to
>be a good filter in ensuring that you won't be hired by the type of
>company you don't want to work for.
>
that are dyed in the wool "businessheads." You have to get
through these people to get the jobs you're looking for.
This does not make it a bad place to work; once hired, you
will probably have very little to do with those personnel
department folks ever. Try to get in the door for an interview;
then look around the department where you will potentially
be working as see if that fits in with your desires.
>However, this example brings up a very important and useful hint in
>interviewing--the term "we." By thinking and talking of yourself as
>part of the company, it reinforces the meme that you are hired, and
>influences the interviewer to follow up by hiring you. It also
>indicates some loyalty and sense of community.
I think this is a very good, easy to use suggestion!