China related stocks are soaring!
6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu
they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
I have followed them since they went public. Anyone interested in
those stocks and comments?
Jennifer N. Young
Yes. Please post more info. Also cross-post it to alt.chinese.text.
--
--JNY
David A. Kaye
: |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
: |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
: |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
Jennifer N. Young
|> : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
|> : |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
|> : |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
|> : |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
|>
nd
|> forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cos~
t
|> goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
|> propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
|> massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
Are you sure that these companies are involved in prison labor and forced
labor? Isn't your statement a bit over-generalized? IMHO, it's precisely~
for a healthy Chinese economy that we should be more involved in Chinese
companies. (Note: involvement is not necesarily the same as investment.)
--JNY
David Fox
] In article <2ej5b9$8...@crl.crl.com>, d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) wrote:
] |> : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote: : |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc
] |> are chinese companies trade on NYSE : |> they posted gains from
] |> 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks. : |> the upward monentum
] |> is strong and each day they make new highs.
] |>
] |> Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison
] |> labor and forced labor being used by these companies in order to
] |> bring us low cost goods? Should we be concerned also about a
] |> healthy Chinese economy propping up the same government
] |> responsible for the Tienamen Square massacre? Or, shouldn't we
] |> be making moral judgments on stock picks?
]
] Are you sure that these companies are involved in prison labor and forced
] labor? Isn't your statement a bit over-generalized? IMHO, it's precisely
] for a healthy Chinese economy that we should be more involved in Chinese
] companies. (Note: involvement is not necesarily the same as investment.)
It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
has about 20 million prisoners, that is more then four times
the US rate of incarceration per capita, and the US rate is
extremely high compared to the rest of the world. China has
no laws regarding the labor conditions of prisoners. With this
many people in prison, slave labor is an important part of
China's economy. China can have the unpleasant and dangerous
tasks of its economy performed at extremely low cost, so
other Chinese companies have considerably lower costs than
they would otherwise, or than they would in a country that
did not practice wholesale slave labor.
There was an article in The Economist about this that I can't
seem to lay my hands on right now.
On the other hand, I'm not sure that avoiding the secondary
market for their securities is a very meaningful protest.
-david
David Fox
] There was an article in The Economist about this that I can't
] seem to lay my hands on right now.
Found it. October 2nd, 1993, page 33, "China's secret economy."
bl...@ief.itg.ti.com
: 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
: |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
: |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
: |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
>forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
>goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
>propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
>massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
Why don't you post that on a philosophy newsgroup? Americans
ought to quit shoving their own morals on 6000 year old cultures they
don't understand.
Shiwei Xu
should you care after they already went up that much?
Gary Fritz
: : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
: Why don't you post that on a philosophy newsgroup? Americans
: ought to quit shoving their own morals on 6000 year old cultures they
: don't understand.
I don't believe the current regime could be considered a 6000 year old
culture. They are a power-hungry elite who have been in power for less
than, what, 50 years?
I don't claim the older Chinese cultures were necessarily perfect;
I honestly don't know enough to say. But just because a bunch of
murderous thugs happens to live in a country with a long history
doesn't give them automatic approval.
Gary
Siamak Khoubyari
In article <CI1AM...@fc.hp.com>, fr...@fc.hp.com (Gary Fritz) writes:
|> bl...@ief.itg.ti.com wrote:
|>
|>
|> : : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
|> : Why don't you post that on a philosophy newsgroup? Americans
|>
|> I don't believe the current regime could be considered a 6000 year old
|> culture. They are a power-hungry elite who have been in power for less
|> than, what, 50 years?
|>
|>
|> Gary
Congradulations friends, you have just helped me start my kill file
for this newsgroup!
-- Siamak
YEO YEK CHONG
> : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
> : |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
> : |> they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
> : |> the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>
> Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
> forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
Haven't heard about this claim, yet. Where do you get your info from?
> goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
A healthy Chinese economy is to the best interest of not only the USA,
but also to the best interest of East and Southeast Asian economy. Its is
a huge market that many lives depend on. Just like a strong Japenese
economy stabilizes regional economy in Asia, a healthy Chinese economy has
a far greater influence. (We are talking about a quarter of the world's
population here.) Alienating China will produce a future Soviet. Not a
single bit of a good prospect for the so-called free world. Besides,
getting in the way of an economy moving towards free market economy seems
to me an obstacle to a society leaning towards capitalistic reforms.
> propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
> massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
In my opinion, Tienamen Square protesters are impatient and immature.
The Asian culture do not work this way. Yes, many people were killed, but
it is more than just a matter of 'human rights'. And I believe many will
disagree with me, especially Hong Konger. Teng has already started the
economic reforms way before Gorby started his. Today, the Chinese may
think of the protesters as an obstacle to reforms. (Watch CNN) Besides, if
one really wants to start a revolution, one will not cry in front the whole
world, but start doing something. (Mere media manipulation by the press)
This is what I do not feel right about the sincerety of the Tienamen Square
protesters. They are teenagers, with no respect for their opponents, and
worst of all, without any unifying strategy. No command and control. No
knowledge of their own strengths and weeknesses. No skills in negotiation.
This is why they failed. Not because there are no 'human rights' in that
country. (Perhaps, but that is secondary. And for the most part it is
cultural) It may be OK for the Westerner to rebuke the elder, but it is
definitely a no no in Asian culture. Here, we have a bunch of teenagers
who inherit everything they have so far making demands to a generation
of leaders who fought for their lives in the 40's. Slapping the military
commander in the face in front of the whole world. Something is wrong
here. Any sane strategist, businessman, or politician will tell you this:
respect your opponent. So, you see. It is not just a matter of human right.
--
Yeo Yek Chong
Computer Science Department
Oklahoma State University
Stillwater, Oklahoma, USA
Mike Quigley
as fast as it's going up. It's all rampant speculation now. Investment
property in China is now being resold two and three times a week! Should
have jumped in when Bush and Kissinger did!
Mike
Marcus S. Yoo
>In article <beijing-13...@scf-slc.berkeley.edu> bei...@garnet.berkeley.edu (Jennifer N. Young) writes:
>] In article <2ej5b9$8...@crl.crl.com>, d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) wrote:
>] |> : ... Chinese company stocks rising ...
>] |> Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison
>] |> labor and forced labor being used by these companies in order to
>] |> ...
>] Are you sure that these companies are involved in prison labor and forced
>] ...
>It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
>...
>On the other hand, I'm not sure that avoiding the secondary
>market for their securities is a very meaningful protest.
Unless the human rights violation is so grossly unjust and out in the public,
much as was with South Africa (and even this case can be debated), avoiding
the market doesn't really say much. In extreme cases, I would boycott some
products just to satisfy my moral. If not enough people do the same, the only
ones that will really be hurt is those boycotters...
For example, would you avoid buying fruits and vegetables picked by some
migrant farmers? If you know something about how the migrant farmers are
treated, you wouldn't say anything about any prison labors. In many cases,
the migrants comes out of the season oweing money! Much of it has to do
with their own fault, but then again, their pay isn't exactly up to par
with >minimum wages<.
Now, given this, if you still want to stay away from stocks of chinese
companies, then you should also stay away from all fruits and vegetables.
Doesn't make much sense (IMO).
--
Marcus S. Yoo (m...@scr.siemens.com) | My thoughts are not for Tasha but for
Siemens Corporate Research, Inc. | myself. I keep thinking how empty it
755 College Rd. E., 609-734-3313 | will be without her presence. Did I
Princeton, NJ 08540 fax: -6565 | miss the point? -- Data, ST:TNG
Niel W. Hanes
Aren't there any better groups to discuss these things in?
I didn't subscribe to an investment group to hear people
discuss human rights and ecological concerns.
Just my 'one-shares' worth.
Niel
Wayne Liang
related politics. If you guys want to talk about human rights in
China, why don't you post your articals in some other newsgroup.
I am getting sick and tired that this group has been turned into
misc.invest.human-rights.
David Fox
] Make it roughly 18 millions male prisoners. So, 18/300 => 6%
] are in jail? I don't get that feeling so big a percentage are in jail
] when I am in China. Do the 20 millions include even traffic violation
] or drunkards that got lock up for a night?
Well, it doesn't include the accountants executed a few months
ago for graft...
] You can only do light industry (e.g. toys, clothings, ...) using prison
] labor. The three stocks mentioned are for tires and automobiles, so
] called heavy industry. It will be stupid to concentrate thousands of
] them in a big plant. It is hard to watch prisoners moving around big
] machinaries. With too many of them in one spot, it takes even more man
] power to watch them.
All of this seems to be speculation on your part, directly
contradicting the article I read in The Economist. Note that
it is quite unlikely that those companies themselves use such
labor, but probably the asbestos for the brake linings (if
that is what they use) comes from mines using prison labor
(asbestos mining can be very dangerous to your health)
etc. etc.
I have no direct knowledge of the matter, except that when
I'm in China I get the feeling that the government could and
would easily hide 20 million prisoners somewhere that I would
never find them. I'll take a look when I go there on Sunday.
Sorry if this doesn't seem to be misc.invest.stocks related,
but it is just the nature of USENET to finish a discussion
where it started. Use your kill files. Maybe I'll post more
info from the article in a China newsgroup. Anyone interested?
-david
David A. Kaye
: I didn't subscribe to an investment group to hear people
: discuss human rights and ecological concerns.
You're not concerned about the companies you own? I am. We're not
talking gambling here (well, maybe we are), but we're talking about
ownership of companies which employ real people. The value of that stock
to its board of directors (who are usually majority stockholders)
determines the future policies of those companies. We can either keep
a destructing regime in place by running up their stock value, or help to
kick it out by refusing to help raise their stock prices. I note that
the University of California divested itself of holding in the Republic
of South Africa, and suddenly blacks there were given participation in
the electoral process there. Conscientious investing DOES work.
Thayne Forbes
: It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
: has about 20 million prisoners, that is more then four times
: the US rate of incarceration per capita, and the US rate is
: extremely high compared to the rest of the world. China has
: no laws regarding the labor conditions of prisoners. With this
: many people in prison, slave labor is an important part of
: China's economy.
I admit that I am uninformed on this point but I must point
out that I find it hard to believe that the contribution of
less than 2% of China's population is an important part of it's
economy.
--
Thayne Forbes tha...@unislc.slc.unisys.com
Unisys Unix Support Engineering, Salt Lake City.
Phone: (801) 594-4448 Fax: (801) 594-3827
ZENG Roger Wei Gang
>bl...@ief.itg.ti.com wrote:
{>I don't believe the current regime could be considered a 6000 year old
>culture. They are a power-hungry elite who have been in power for less
>than, what, 50 years?
Flame on .......
OOOOH, please!!! This is a investment discussion. If you people want to
start the 1000001 flame war on the net, move it to
misc.invest.stocks.moral-and-politically.correct.philosophers or something
like that. People are here to discuss stocks, not whether there are 2
million or 2 million and 1 prison labor in China. I really don't give a
damn about what the company's doing when I pick stocks as long as they're
legal. Now for all your moral-conscious souls, move your discussion
somewhere else before another group is filled with garbage.
Flame off ......
--
"Life is about going out and sieze Roger Zeng
|' opportunity, not security, Engeering Science 9T5
o like playing tennis ..." University of Toronto
/| e-mail: ze...@ecf.toronto.edu
David Fox
] Well it looked like a good newsgroup at first.
]
] Aren't there any better groups to discuss these things in?
]
] I didn't subscribe to an investment group to hear people
] discuss human rights and ecological concerns.
Ok, I promise to stop.
-david
Jason W Solinsky
|> In article <beijing-13...@scf-slc.berkeley.edu> bei...@garnet.berkeley.edu (Jennifer N. Young) writes:
|>
|> ] In article <2ej5b9$8...@crl.crl.com>, d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) wrote:
|> ] |> : 6436...@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote: : |> Shi, cba, tir, and ekc
|> ] |> are chinese companies trade on NYSE : |> they posted gains from
|> ] |> 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks. : |> the upward monentum
|> ] |> is strong and each day they make new highs.
|> ] |>
|> ] |> Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison
|> ] |> labor and forced labor being used by these companies in order to
|> ] |> bring us low cost goods? Should we be concerned also about a
|> ] |> healthy Chinese economy propping up the same government
|> ] |> responsible for the Tienamen Square massacre? Or, shouldn't we
|> ] |> be making moral judgments on stock picks?
|> ]
|> ] Are you sure that these companies are involved in prison labor and forced
|> ] labor? Isn't your statement a bit over-generalized? IMHO, it's precisely
|> ] for a healthy Chinese economy that we should be more involved in Chinese
|> ] companies. (Note: involvement is not necesarily the same as investment.)
|>
|> It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
|> has about 20 million prisoners, that is more then four times
|> the US rate of incarceration per capita, and the US rate is
Unless I am horribly mistaken, the US has four times the rate of incarceration
per capita that China has.
JWS
James Felder
Ari Cohn <ac...@ascribe.synopsys.com> wrote:
>Ask the following question: Will not investing in China
>change Chinese labor practices?
Yes, to the degree exactly equal to the amount that you don't invest.
Saying that the individual investor doesn't have enough clout to
effect thing is, IMHO, only a salve on your conscience for
participating in something that is against your own ethics.
When you walk up a flight of stone steps can you see any change? No.
But if a million people walk up that flight the wear is dramatic. The
wear didn't occur because some huge institutional set of feet walked
up and wore then down in one blow. No it took a million sets, each
acting individually and imperceptiably. Each individual had to decide
to make that walk for themselves. No one else could do it for them.
But then again, you probably don't vote either. After all why bother.
What difference can one vote make out of the millions of other votes,
right. So are you going to sign your vote over to some institutional
voting group that with huge voting blocks can get things done? Will
this institutional group do everything exactly in line with what you
want?
As to whether the only person hurt it the protesting investor. I don't
think the investor is hurt. Instead I think that living your ethic
returns large return in growth as a person. That person might not be
as wealthy, but is money worth sacrificing that which is important to you.
If Chinese labor practices are disturbing, then don't invest. The
effect will be insignificant on its own. But the collective effect if
everyone invested in places that didn't violate their own ethics would
be as great or greater than that of any large institutional investor.
--
James L. Felder jfe...@lerc.nasa.gov
Sverdrup Technology, Inc.
NASA Lewis Research Center
Cleveland, Ohio, 44135
Dick Crepeau
I agree. Please, those of you with a philosophical bent, I decide where
I will invest my time and money and appreciate the first posting bringing
to my attention possible moral concerns, but further discussion including this
letter should be unnecessary.
To make this fit in this news group I offer an investment I believe
will generate good returns with a little risk. Check out Shaman
Pharmaceuticals (OTC). They are checking plants from South America used
by shamen of the tribes there for medical purposes. The believe in
reinvesting some of their profits back to the tribes, a truly moral
investment!
In answer to one of the early posters asking for an investment broker
recommendation. I am quite happy with Richard Zeccola at Dean Witter
(800-776-0780). He used to work at IBM (25 years) and is active in
technology stocks, gives thorough research, and can deal on the commisions
with the best of them. He is currently expanding his client list, tell him
Dick Crepeau sent you!
I once found a listing of NYSE prices through gopher. They were one
day old, but I lost the address. It would be nice if someone could
publish a way of automatically retreiving selected issues from something
like that.
"Wishing you the best of good buys"
Dick Crepeau
Raghu Raghunathan
>
>In article <2ej5b9$8...@crl.crl.com>, d...@crl.com (David A. Kaye) writes:
>Do morals enter into this? Should we be concerned about prison labor and
>forced labor being used by these companies in order to bring us low cost
>goods? Should we be concerned also about a healthy Chinese economy
>propping up the same government responsible for the Tienamen Square
>massacre? Or, shouldn't we be making moral judgments on stock picks?
Please! Keep morals out of the investment newsgroup. If morals entered
into an investment decision, I shouldn't be buying stock of any company
which hires people who have sex outside of marriage, which hires
people who smoke or drink (even outside the work place), and which
allows its employees to goof off on the job. This would probably rule out
all U.S. companies.
I know, I know, My morals are completely different from yours. And that's
exactly my point. Please leave morals discussion out of investment groups.
Thanks,
Raghu.
James W. Jeffries
Hmm, a very touchy subject. You could argue that the best way to improve
conditions in China is to help their economic growth. At the same time
I see your point ("greedy Americans" throwing money, and asking questions
later).
--
Jim Jeffries
j...@umich.edu
gozdz,antoni s
snip
>... I note that
>the University of California divested itself of holding in the Republic
>of South Africa, and suddenly blacks there were given participation in
>the electoral process there. Conscientious investing DOES work.
Aren't we feeling a bit too self-important here...? ;-)
--Tony
--
Tony Gozdz
to...@cc.bellcore.com
Shiwei Xu
problem, 48 HOURS? I guess that is on the same channel where David Letterman
makes his new career...
Yeh, the US of A does not have prison labor. It just pays around $50k of
taxpayer's money on each murderer, drugdealor, and the like in jail to
produce sh*t. I guess that is real humane.
Just a little observation of mine. No offense.
ach...@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Albert Cheng) writes:
>In article <FOX.93De...@graphics.cs.nyu.edu>, f...@graphics.cs.nyu.edu (David Fox) writes:
>>It is certainly something we should be concerned about. China
>>has about 20 million prisoners, that is more then four times
>>the US rate of incarceration per capita, and the US rate is
>>extremely high compared to the rest of the world. China has
>>no laws regarding the labor conditions of prisoners. With this
>>many people in prison, slave labor is an important part of
>>China's economy.
>20 millions? All at one time or over a period of time? One should
>realize that prison population are usually adults of age 17-50. Though
>China has 1.1 billion population, maybe 60% of them are from age
>17-50. So, 660 million potential adults. Male population is lower
>than female. So, about 300 million men. Prisoners are overwhelmly
>male. Make it roughly 18 millions male prisoners. So, 18/300 => 6%
>are in jail? I don't get that feeling so big a percentage are in jail
>when I am in China. Do the 20 millions include even traffic violation
>or drunkards that got lock up for a night?
>> China can have the unpleasant and dangerous
>>tasks of its economy performed at extremely low cost, so
>>other Chinese companies have considerably lower costs than
>>they would otherwise, or than they would in a country that
>>did not practice wholesale slave labor.
>You can only do light industry (e.g. toys, clothings, ...) using prison
>labor. The three stocks mentioned are for tires and automobiles, so
>called heavy industry. It will be stupid to concentrate thousands of
>them in a big plant. It is hard to watch prisoners moving around big
>machinaries. With too many of them in one spot, it takes even more man
>power to watch them.
>I agree one should be concerned about oppressive government, but
>sentimental claims, are, well, sentimental. Yes, China's average labor
>cost maybe one fifth of the comparable ones in USA. That does not
>necessarily makes it evil. People working at fast food places earn
>less than one fifth of many professionals. Is that necessarily evil?
Mike Quigley
Mike
David A. Kaye
: When it comes to making money, fuck morals. Listen to your national
: leaders.
Yes. I understand prostitution is a growth industry now that a lot of
women refuse to have sex on the first date. They're thinking of
legalizing it in San Francisco. An investment today could mean big
rewards tomorrow.
Brian Jam Roseberry
>Shi, cba, tir, and ekc are chinese companies trade on NYSE
>they posted gains from 20% to more than 30% in last two weeks.
>the upward monentum is strong and each day they make new highs.
>those stocks and comments?
I am interested in any information you have on these stocks. I am
a college student, and I am an East Asian Studies Minor, an I may soon
have money to invest, and I really don't mind the risk. Anything would
be great.
Brian
--
**********************************************************************
* There are very few personal problems which * Brian Roseberry *
* which cannot be solved by a proper * pi...@bach.udel.edu *
* application of high explosives. * rose...@udel.edu *
Brian Jam Roseberry
>>Why don't you post that on a philosophy newsgroup? Americans
>>ought to quit shoving their own morals on 6000 year old cultures they
>>don't understand.
>
>your mouth is?" Apparently not, judging by your post.
>
>Cold-blooded investing and mindless consumerism are pointless,
>because they lead to the destruction of the planet and enrich
>only those with the initial ability to invest/own a business.
<Lots of morally rightous bullshit deleted>
>
>If CalPERS and other large institutional investors can
>force rate rollbacks in HMOs to benefit consumers, they
>can also push for humane and ecologically sustainable
>business practices. If you believe that capitalism can
>promote the welfare of people as well as their wealth,
>there is nothing incompatible about morality and investment.
Well, I can't say that I completely disagree with you, but I must
lash out at someone over the fact that I can't get an iota of
information on actual Chinese stocks due to this shit. Go somewhwere
else!!!!!! Why don't you create an new group:
misc.invest.stocks.bleeding.hearts.that.only.want.to.talk.about.other
shit.that.is.not.related.to.fucking.stocks.?
I can't say I'll subscribe, but it will keep me from having to put
this thread in my kill file. I really am interested in this, please go
waste bandwith somewhwere else!
Manish Dharwadker
I believe we have to start turning the tide somewhere..
-- Manish
John Caulfield
After all these replies and using observations of recent events in China, one must come to the
conclusion that although Chinas government is communist/socialist the economy has become unmistakeably
capitalist/free-trade democracy. If you ask the youth of China if they like the "capitalist" or
"Western" system they will undoubtably say "yes". Manufacturing and trade will bring prosperity to
the country and give the people of china more access to all the worlds goods and resources. Heck, I'm
no economist but I'll bet you that like Japan and Germany, China actually has a trade surplus. We
lazy Americans have better overall treatment of our workers, but we use a diproportionate percent of
the worlds resources and have a multi-billion dollar trade deficit. Maybee if Americans were willing
to work and make sacrifices like the Asians, we could balance our budget.
To get off my personal soapbox, with a growing and productive manufacturing based economy
China may be a good bet. Only hope for military stability when the lease is up on Hong Kong at the
end of the century......
My 0.01% worth,
John