Mentoring Institute
Fred Salter
offered on the net? http://www.tradingmentor.com/
I got a call from them a week ago and one of the fellows is going to
call me back next week to give me more info on them and how much they want
for their service.
I haven't traded yet, but have read a number of books and have done
some studying from courses from Larry Williams and Futures Magazine. The
Trading Mentor People say they hook you up with a Mentor and he helps you
understand trading stragedy and keeps you ontrack with paper trading an
account until you are comfortable putting money into it. My wife would
prefer I show some competence before I jump in, and I agree with her.
If anyone has had any dealings with these people I'd appreciate an
answer. Also, if there are any other people who you have dealt with that
provide a similar service for a beginner I'd be grateful to hear from you
about them. I don't know what these people charge yet because they don't
post that info on their web site.
You can answer here in this newsgroup or send directly to me at my email
address fsa...@alaska.net
thanks,
Fred Salter
Eagle River, Alaska
GThatch
but only about $3000 up front. Anyone had any experiences with this?
Troutman, Defender of Sticks
>The
>Trading Mentor People say they hook you up with a Mentor and he helps you
>understand trading stragedy and keeps you ontrack with paper trading an
>account until you are comfortable putting money into it.
Ask if they have detailed information on the percentage of students that
became long-term successful traders as a direct result of their program.
Ask for their definition of "long-term successful" if they actually say
something real, and see if that means "for at least three years." Remember,
you can thrash around helplessly on your own for free; unless they can prove
that their service is worth the money, why pay them to thrash in their
company?
If you actually get a rational and complete response from them, let me know;
they'll be the first I've heard of...
>My wife would
>prefer I show some competence before I jump in, and I agree with her.
Yeah, but...
...no amount of simulated and mentored trading will accurately predict how
you'll do across real time with real money. The best that a simulation will
accomplish will be to iron out mechanical problems in your approach, and
I'll do that for a package of Oreos, not thousands of dollars. You can't
test your ability to work through drawdown until you *have* drawdown.
>Also, if there are any other people who you have dealt with that
>provide a similar service for a beginner I'd be grateful to hear from you
>about them.
A good and competent full service broker who knows what they're doing will
work with you as you go along, both catching mistaken assumptions and
spotting behavioral problems, and you won't get charged a zillion dollars up
front. Every now and then, you might even fetch up against a broker who
used to be a human systems analyst; but *those* guys are the ones who will
tell you that your success as a trader is entirely up to you, and there
isn't a mentoring agency on Earth that will reliably churn out good traders.
"Your success as a trader is...", ahhhh, whatever; you get the picture. ;-)
Sticks
--
Troutman, Defender of Sticks trou...@defendercapital.com
(aka) http://www.defendercapital.com/
Jonathan Matte, President
Defender Capital Management, Inc. (IB, CTA)
Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.
There is a significant risk of loss in futures trading.
Fred Salter
>Troutman, Defender of Sticks wrote in message ...
>1. Ask if they have detailed information on the percentage of students
that became long-term successful traders as a direct >result of their
program.
>2. Ask for their definition of "long-term successful" if they actually say
something real, and see if that means "for at least >three years."
Thank you for some good questions to ask them. The fellow was supposed to
call me back yesterday but didn't get with me. I'm home again today for the
holiday but haven't heard yet.
>If you actually get a rational and complete response from them, let me
know; they'll be the first I've heard of...
Sounds like the same old story. Offering a pie in the sky.
>...no amount of simulated and mentored trading will accurately predict how
you'll do across real time with real money. The >best that a simulation
will accomplish will be to iron out mechanical problems in your approach,
and I'll do that for a package >of Oreos, not thousands of dollars. You
can't test your ability to work through drawdown until you *have* drawdown.
Understood. How you act under pressure is probably the best indicator of
what kind of trader you are. I did pick that up from Larry Williams course.
Some people can sweat out the drawdowns without excessive trading while
others are way to jittery to hold on and stick to their stragedy.
I believe that if I can:
1. Have faith in my decisions and not jump ship on a whim.
2. Know when to add to my position if it's going well.
3. Have a good ideal of what I want to do with exits, and take them. Not get
greedy.
Then I'll prove to myself I've got what it takes.
>A good and competent full service broker who knows what they're doing will
work with you as you go along, both catching >mistaken assumptions and
spotting behavioral problems, and you won't get charged a zillion dollars up
front. Every now >and then, you might even fetch up against a broker who
used to be a human systems analyst; but *those* guys are the ones >who will
tell you that your success as a trader is entirely up to you, and there
isn't a mentoring agency on Earth that will >reliably churn out good
traders.
Thanks for your candor and what sounds like SOUND advice. I have been
somewhat leary of Brokers but know that if I'm not intimidated by them I
should be able to utilize what knowledge they have.
There are different levels of participation with brokers and I suppose I
should get a little higher level from them initially while I'm getting my
feet wet, and then back off to a low commission broker when I have a little
better idea of what's going on. I certainly am not going to pay someone
thousands of dollars for mentoring when I know how to read quite well.
Now I have to talk to the boss a little more <G>
thanks again,
Fred in Eagle River, AK
Troutman, Defender of Sticks
>Thanks for your candor and what sounds like SOUND advice. I have been
>somewhat leary of Brokers but know that if I'm not intimidated by them I
>should be able to utilize what knowledge they have.
It's worth mentioning that -- contrary to what the brokerage industry often
seems to promote -- the purpose of a full service broker is to make sure
that the execution and information side of trading is covered to your
satisfaction. That is, they fill gaps in your knowledge of the marketplace
and current conditions, and they provide whatever degree of assistance is
necessary for you to get your orders placed correctly.
A broker has no business deciding how often you (as a self-directed trader)
should trade, or the instruments you should trade (e.g. trade options
instead of contracts), or what specific trades you should take, or to
provide unasked-for opinions of your orders. If you *want* help with that,
you should get it, but it's not up to anybody but you to decide how and when
you trade your money (unless the broker is preventing you from making a
trade that would place you and the brokerage at excessive risk).
Everybody I've heard of who gets intimidated by brokers is unhappy with
feeling like they're getting pressured or conned. There are plenty of
opportunities out there to experience that. I get hype from an FCM who
wants me to clear through them, and everything they send me talks about
sales: how to sell prospects on trading and how to sell trades to existing
clients to increase revenue. I haven't read a single sentence from that
company that has even once suggested that you should provide conscientious
service to customers; it's all about monthly income at the customers'
expense. Doesn't exactly make me proud to be in the same pool with them...
But there *are* good, professional people out there who really do care about
clients and the work they do on their behalf. If you talk to a broker and
*anything* feels wrong, just try somewhere else. If you get to where you
want to trade, I have a short list I can email you of brokers I trust to do
the right thing; none of us might be a good fit for you, but it's a better
place to start than the phone book. Though... in Eagle River, the phone
book isn't going to have a lot of futures brokers listed...
Good luck!
Fred Salter
Troutman, Defender of Sticks wrote in message ...
>
>It's worth mentioning that -- contrary to what the brokerage industry often
>seems to promote -- the purpose of a full service broker is to make sure
>that the execution and information side of trading is covered to your
>satisfaction. That is, they fill gaps in your knowledge of the marketplace
>and current conditions, and they provide whatever degree of assistance is
>necessary for you to get your orders placed correctly.
Sounds like just what I need. Now the ideal is far from what I've seen so
far. One of my buddies who just started trading opened an account and did ok
on some options in T-bonds but his broker called up and talked his wife into
picking up ten contracts in Euro Dollars short. I think he said the
commission was about 570 dollars on the lot of them. The wife doesn't know
anything about Futures or Options but was talked into doing the "sure bet".
I told my friend, I'd be getting a new broker as soon as I got rid of those
Options. I hope he doesn't get burned, but Euros might go up rather than
down with what I've been hearing about activity in Europe. Hard to say
though. The things are so darn flat now and my crystal ball is in need of a
shining. This kind of broker, I don't need.
. If you *want* help with that,
>you should get it, but it's not up to anybody but you to decide how and
when
>you trade your money (unless the broker is preventing you from making a
>trade that would place you and the brokerage at excessive risk).
I don't have any problems with that, in fact I would welcome any help, and
expect to pay a little bit more for an assisted trade until I got my feet
wet. It's learning all the rules of the road that are a bit tricky. I don't
want to forget to dot an "I" or cross a "T" and end up loosing money because
my broker didn't explain what I was doing was wrong.
I haven't read a single sentence from that
>company that has even once suggested that you should provide conscientious
>service to customers; it's all about monthly income at the customers'
>expense. Doesn't exactly make me proud to be in the same pool with them...
Sounds too much like the movie "Wallstreet" to me. I picture Bud "cold
calling" clients to dump stock that is not doing too well just to make a
commission. Maybe if I can go eyeball to eyeball it would make a difference.
If he has to look at me across the table it might make it more difficult to
lie through his teeth to me.
>But there *are* good, professional people out there who really do care
about
>clients and the work they do on their behalf. If you talk to a broker and
>*anything* feels wrong, just try somewhere else. If you get to where you
>want to trade, I have a short list I can email you of brokers I trust to do
>the right thing; none of us might be a good fit for you, but it's a better
>place to start than the phone book. Though... in Eagle River, the phone
>book isn't going to have a lot of futures brokers listed...
A short list would be great. As you point out, there probably aren't too
many good brokers here. I'll take a good hard look at our available people,
but just don't know yet. I get some charts on the net from a Bernie Bohl. He
has a pretty good site. He's a little expensive though.
http://router.minot.com/~bohl/ Seems like he's an honest fellow from what
he writes up. Like you say, there are probably a lot of good guys out there
that are trying to help people break into this thing. It seems like everyone
I talked to has a horror story about either them, or a friend of theirs
loosing thousands of dollars. I'm not ready to give up on it without trying
though.
I appreciate your comments "Sticks???"
Fred in Alaska
Daytrader's Bulletin
"Fred Salter" <fsa...@alaska.net> wrote:
> One of my buddies who just started trading opened an account and did ok
> on some options in T-bonds but his broker called up and talked his wife into
> picking up ten contracts in Euro Dollars short...
You originally asked about a mentoring program and now are discussing brokers
who make trading decisions for you. A broker talking someone into any order is
doing a disservice.
If you want to learn to trade and make your own decisions, it seems a broker
second guessing your orders would be a detriment. Unless your broker was also
your mentor, trying to teach you a particular method of trading, I'd think you
would be better off finding a broker who would point out obvious errors (i.e.,
you said Buy, but probably meant Sell; your stop loss is way too large for the
risk parameters you had previously set for yourself, etc), but otherwise keep
their opinions to themselves. I think that is what Troutman meant by "...they
provide whatever degree of assistance is necessary for you to get your orders
placed correctly."
The best way to learn to trade is by trading. We learned by trading
commodities because we wanted to be able to place long and short positions.
Now we only trade the S&P500, but that is just our choice, not necessarily a
good market for all traders. There are many rules to learn such as
1. Exit a loss immediately
2. Don't exit winners too quickly
3. Hold tight stops (at first) and many more
Learn to deal with your psychological issues as you do along (this is the
most difficult aspect of trading). Decide what methodology you want to use
and study it inside and out. Read everything you can find, and read
biographies of the great traders. Mirroring someone successful is the easiest
way to learn any new skill. Expect to lose money, expect to make money. Most
of all, only trade money you can afford to lose.
Establish ongoing relationships with other traders that are wanting to share
ideas and experiences, not slam others. No one knows (with certainty) what
the market will do next, that is the challenge of trading. We base our
trading decisions on probability and acceptable risk, but as for what the
market will actually do? That we do not know, until it happens. This is where
the rules come in. When the market moves against us, we get out. When the
market moves in our favor, we start moving our stops. Every trader must
develop over time the particularities of their own trading. Trading is a
process, learn to enjoy that process and you'll have a rewarding activity.
Traders who are too focused on the outcome (the money) tend to make costly
errors in judgment.
There are good resources to learn trading on-line. Many have a lot of good
FREE information, in addition to any paid content they might offer. Good
trading.
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