Van K. Tharp totally fooled!
bp
David Mobley in Feb 14th, 199 issue of Barron's.
----------------
David Mobley himself has become a fixture at trading seminars put on
by North Carolina psychologist Van K. Tharp, who has made a career of
counseling both professional and amateur traders in behavioral
self-control. Money really started cascading into Maricopa (Mobley's
fund) after June 1997, when Tharp touted Mobley's performance record
and called him the most successful graduate of Tharp's two-year Super
Trader Program. Mobley's investment record was even touted by Tharp in
a Forbes magazine profile of the psychologist.
Tharp recently told Barron's in a telephone interview that he thinks
so highly of Mobley that he has put the bulk of his personal wealth
into Maricopa. Tharp's Website, called the International Institute of
Trading Mastery, describes Mobley as a "fantastic trader and
businessman" and a "wonderful human being."
------------------------
Barrons also reported that Maricopa has reported no losing years and
only five down months in its 88-month history (through December, the
most recent month for which a report is available). The best reported
annual return was 62.52% in 1995; the worst, 34.54% in 1994.
The Feb 28th issue of Barron's describes how it was all a Ponzi scheme
and that FBI had raided the offices and shut the fund down. It is
very surprising that Tharp could not figure out if Mobley was for
real or a fake. Mobley also wrote the foreword to Tharp's recent
book, "Trade your way to financial freedom". If "bulk of his personal
wealth" was indeed in the fund then we should see some cheap seminars
soon.
Yourrodfather
and find your own answers to the trading game.
Good Luck everyone.
Learn to lose, fast!!!.
Matt D
bp <no...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:38bb8ef0...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> The strange thing is that his web site still talking positively about
> Mobley.
>
> http://www.iitm.com/seminars/ii06005.htm
I assume he just hasn't taken the page down yet. But that's surprising given
that he seems to be closely associated with Mobley and must surely have
heard the news. He might be in danger of breaching SEC regulations if he
keeps that page up so I would be surprised to see it still there in a week
or so.
--
Matt D
Matt D
Yourrodfather <yourro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000227184723...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> And so..another guru falleth. Really makes you want to dig deep within
yourself
> and find your own answers to the trading game.
I'm not sure I'd call Tharp a guru. He doesn't offer the same type of snake
oil as most vendors, and he does actually offer a money-back offer on his
seminars so you can back out if you don't like them after the first day. I
think his comments on psychology are okay, although all that NLP stuff isn't
my cup of tea, it may help some traders. I just think that there is a lot of
hype around him, and he charges a lot of money for what IMO isn't the key
issue of trading, namely finding a profitable edge in the markets.
Everyone goes on about how psychology and money-management are the most
important parts of trading, the areas you should spend the most time on. I
just have totally the opposite point of view. Money-management is fairly
easy to master and you could teach it to a 10 year old or even a computer.
All the good money-management techniques are easily available throughout
trading and statistical literature, usually for free at libraries. There are
even some good free resources on the web (even in m.i.f!). Basically the
"problem" of money-management has been solved, and it is just a matter of
learning the ideas then implementing them. As for psychology, there are
plenty of self-help courses and books which teach things like how to
overcome indeciveness, fear etc, how to improve your discipline. So even if
you are indecisive, fearful and undisciplined, you can change that if you
want for about $50 worth of books.
But I just don't think that stuff is the most important really. If you
haven't got any edge, then I don't care how confident and disciplined you
are, and what money-management you use - the fact is that you will lose
money until you either stop trading, find a profitable edge, or go bust.
Being confident without knowing you have a profitable edge, and what that
edge is, just doesn't make sense. Also, if you do have an edge, this in
itself will give you confidence, since you know you will come out ahead if
you implement your strategy consistently and with good risk control. No need
for any seminars, just analyse everything you do and find out what works and
what doesn't. Then do the stuff that works and avoid the stuff that doesn't
work.
Lastly, I personally think the best way to get an edge is to get experience
in the markets by trading, watching as much market price action as possible,
and associating or sharing ideas with proven profitable traders. I think the
best way to learn what not to do is to try something and see it lose money
consistently. The best way to learn what to do is to try something and find
out that it makes money consistently. Failing that, read about or watch
things that work and things that don't. As Jesse Livermore once said, "There
is nothing like losing everything you have in the world for teaching you
what not to do". Well personally I don't like to take things that far -
usually a great opportunity missed, or a stupid trade which knocks me back
for a few ŁŁŁ is all it takes to remind me what works and what doesn't.
--
Matt D
Gary Smith
Great post Matt. I tend to agree with much of what you say and I have made
my (negative) views on the psychological gurus well known over the years.
From what I've seen trading is all about quickness, flexibility, and most
of all one's attitude towards risk. The latter seems to be what separates
the winners from the losers and the fence sitters. What good is an edge if
a trader is unable to exploit it? As for an edge, what better edge is
there than the 200+ year upward bias in stock prices. A bias which went
into overdrive in 1982, then super-overdrive in 1995, out of this world
overdrive (for tech) in October 1998 and finally out of this galaxy
overdrive (again for tech) in October 1999. Yet how many have exploited
this gift of the past several years?
Gary Smith
Matt D <Mat...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in article
<89jiij$i4n$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
winch p
market is out of the universe?....or sucked into a black hole?"
P
"Gary Smith" <hiy...@caveland.net> wrote in message
news:01bf83ad$24106ba0$341813d0@oemcomputer...
Brian Rizzo
I agree. I think you can get everything useful out of Van Tharp from the book
"Trade Your Way..". The basic principles of position sizing, probability and
money management are sound. I read in this newsgroup a few weeks ago where
someone said that Market Wizards and Van's book are all you need. While I
wouldn't go that far, it's basically true. Both books introduce beginning
traders to basic principles, without providing much in the way of specifics. I
think that's a good thing, allowing the newer trader to explore and expand on
those topics him/herself. The prices of the seminars however, are nothing short
of insanity.
Brian Rizzo
Matt D wrote:
> After seeing BP's post, I took a look at Tharp's website, and I have to say
> that I don't like the look of it one bit. Thought Larry Williams courses
> were expensive? Well try this for size:
>
> "Commitment is Important: Although the final cost has yet to be determined*,
> the total package will probably cost about $50,000 in
> tuition, less than most advanced academic programs."
>
> This is for his "supertrader" course
>
> - from VKT's website, URL
> http://www.iitm.com/consulting/ii00002-2.htm#SuperTrader
>
> Well I haven't seen the material, apart from his book "Trade your way to
> financial freedom", but I have to say that this is brings vendoring to new
> levels. Is there really much you are going to learn from his courses (which,
> by the way, he says will take 18 months of "the same effort and level of
> commitment as advanced academic programs") which you couldn't get for a far
> lesser price? Just buy "Market Wizards" for $20 and you'll probably learn
> much more than Tharp would ever teach you. And of course it shouldn't come
> as any surprise to learn that Tharp doesn't trade. Of course, he prefers to
> help other people rather than make money trading by himself. But he doesn't
> seem to mind taking $50k from every trader who signs up to the supertrader
> course. A nice little risk/reward proposition wouldn't you say?
>
> One thing in Tharp's favour though is he doesn't seem to be touting a
> worthless trading method. At least he admits that he is trying to improve
> traders psychological approaches and help them overcome emotional blocks to
> successful trading. That's fair enough, because psychology is an important
> issue in trading. But there are plenty of self-help books out there which
> teach simple and effective ways to improve your discipline, self-control
> etc, and many trading books cover the same topics quite well enough. Why
> should you pay bundles for a Tharp introductory seminar, then 50k for his
> course, when you can get these insights and more for a couple of hundred
> dollars worth of books (or better still, get them free at a library)?
>
> Another thing I didn't like was the tone of the website. I can't really put
> my finger on why, but it just strikes me as a bit patronizing, with the
> attitude of "oh, well if you're a *really* good student we might just let
> you into our master trader program...oh, and that will be $17,000 please".
>
> For all I know, Van K Tharp's course might be the best thing since sliced
> bread. I haven't taken it so I can't tell for sure. But what I can tell is
> that Mr Tharp's website has many of the hallmarks of a typical slick vendor.
> Niederhoffer called them hoodoos and I think that's pretty close to my own
> opinion.
>
> --
> Matt D