Ken Roberts Investment Program
Steve McCready
here had personal experience with it? Does anyone know anything about
Ken Roberts? The pamphlet is pretty well done, but I'm suspicious of
anything unsolicited that arrives in my mailbox.
Along the same lines - is there a program or book you would recommend for
somebody interested in futures? How did YOU get your start?
Thanks in advance ...
--
-Steve Davis, CA
////////////////////////////// This space _still_ vacant -
s...@netcom.com // now available for rent ...
siko...@compassrose.com ////////////////////////////////////////////
DonaldF935
1) Paper trading and actual trading are worlds apart. Paper trading is
basically worthless and actually dangerous because it establishes false
attitudes which will croak you in the real thing.
2) What Ken calls "voodoo" stuff is actually the most helpful in real
trading. Follow only his instructions and you won't have to worry about
cocktail parties unless you're at them working as a part-time butler.
3) What you (and I) spent $200 for could have been learned from any
introductory commodities book for about 1/10th the cost of the course.
1-2-3 tops and bottoms and narrow sideways channels don't constitute
"technical analysis".
4) Brokers will love to see you coming when you decide to try the real
thing with actual dollars in an account. They know most Ken Roberts
students don't have a clue about where to put stops, etc. And since Ken
encourages trading with under-captialized accounts, brokers know you won't
be around long enough to bother them with rookie questions about things
you never learned (or even heard of).
Better off spending the $200 on bad entertainment -- at least it's
entertaining.
Jonathan Miles
Can you give us a low down on what is taught? Or have you signed a
non-disclosure agreement?
Jonathan
CKislinger
far I've been very impressed. The course is based on technical analysis
of futures charts and stresses "paper trading" to get started. Paper
trading is a good way to get your feet wet and your confidence up. You
can simulate actual trades in the commodities markets and see just how
much you would have made or lost on a particular trade. It's very
effective.
The course training doesn't involve market fundamentals, stochastics,
Gann lines, moving averages or anything else associated with high brow
voodoo trading. Roberts says the only purpose those terms serve is to
impress people at cocktail parties with hieroglyphic buzz words.
After a rather disheartening start when I jumped in before I knew what was
going on, I'm currently enjoying about an 80% success rate in my paper
trades.
Give it a try, the course is only about $ 200.00 or so. You'll piss that
away on bad entertainment in the same amount of time it'll take you to
become familiar enough with commodities futures trading to know if it's
for you. ; )
CKislinger
me what went wrong. How long did you paper trade before you jumped in for
real? What commodities did you trade? How often? I'm really interested
in knowing.
I'm a Roberts course member and I've been paper trading for a few months
now with about 80% success. Tell me why you think paper trading and the
real thing are so different? I don't see how they can be. If you're
working with truly expendable money your attitude should be equally as
dispassionate with one as the other.
It seems to me if you don't get greedy and go for the recently volatile
markets like coffee, sugar, or cocoa in hopes of a huge gain right off you
should be OK. I'm comfortable with corn, oats, live cattle, commodities
like that. Not much movement each day but not much tendency for limit
moves either. I'm also comfortable with how I place my stop loss points
and believe they're based on informed decisions.
I know Roberts talks about million dollar moves but why shouldn't he?
He's made them based on what he teaches in his course. He's also a
salesman trying to sell his product so by default he's not going to tell
you a bunch of bad things.
Caveat Emptor.
I will continue to paper trade based on Roberts methods and jump in when I
feel comfortable and not before. If I find I'm wrong more than I'm right
I'll find another way to learn this business.
Also, I would like to hear your side of this in more detail. Thanks.
CKislinger
CKislinger
Yah, the Roberts course teaches the technical analysis of commodity chart
fluctuations and nothing more. Chart movements are judged on their own
merit. Market fundamentals are ignored.
I don't completely agree with this concept, however. I think your trading
decisions should be based on a careful balance of both technical analysis
and fundamentals as well as a thorough knowledge of what your dealing
with.
Commodities can and will bite your head clean off.
More information as well as course materials can be obtained by calling
800 827 3910.
CKislinger
Samuel Sun
> As a former Ken Roberts student I can assure you of four things:
>
> 1) Paper trading and actual trading are worlds apart. Paper trading is
> basically worthless and actually dangerous because it establishes false
> attitudes which will croak you in the real thing.
Very true; I've never seriously paper traded, but I can say that I've had
more "theoretical profits" based on trades I've mentioned in posts than I've
actually been able to pull in trading; There is much you have to learn
about how your emotions react to a $500 loss 10 minutes after putting on a
trade, etc.etc.
>
> 3) What you (and I) spent $200 for could have been learned from any
> introductory commodities book for about 1/10th the cost of the course.
> 1-2-3 tops and bottoms and narrow sideways channels don't constitute
> "technical analysis".
Incidentally, when I opened my account at Jack Carl and Lind Waldock, each
sent me a small booklet describing technical analysis techniques, although
basic ones. However, this book was FREE!
Sam Sun
Doug Wells
>Path:
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>Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 14:51:42 +0000
>Newsgroups: misc.invest.futures
>Subject: Re: Ken Roberts Investment Program
>From: Jonathan Miles <mrm...@aol.com>
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Jonathan, I'd have to agree with Donald, overall, with a few "modifications".
You want the low down? He gave it to you! That was it:
1. 1-2-3 Tops & Bottoms (probably the most reliable technical patterns
available)
2. Narrow sideways channels
Period. And yes, far cheaper to learn from a paperback. I just finished the
course and here's my opinion: I liked it. It was a good starting point for
me. It's obvious, however, that I've only begun, only scratched the surface.
I'm reluctant to continue on to his more advanced courses only because I feel
I'm paying a lot of money for just a few tidbits of knowledge. He presents it
very well, very understandably. He makes it so easy for you, I find myself
getting impatient, like "ok, ok, I got it! Enough elaborating, now can we
please get on with it?"
To summarize, yes I highly recommend it. It'll get your feet wet, at your own
pace, and help you around many early pitfalls. It's not, however, the
end-all, be-all.
For me, I'm looking for where to go after Ken Roberts. Some of the booklets
I've picked up concerning complex Options combinations are blowing me away.
There must be something in between! More detail and real meat than Ken
Roberts, but still on a Novice/Intermediate level. I'm playing around with
MetaStock right now, and it's teaching me more about technical analysis than
anything else!
Any suggestions? How about Tom DeMark's "The New Science of Technical
Analysis"? How about "Chart Insight" newsletter? Looks interesting...
-Doug Wells
Bart A. Miller
I have been enrolled in Ken Roberts course since Sept. 1993.
By the end of Dec. I had doubled my account. Unfortunately I
didn't take profits and all everything crashed in early January.
Still, I had made for most of last year until approximately
June 94. Since then Ken's course has been in a slump. I don't
see how anyone can claim that they have been 80% successful
since the beginning of this year. Are you talking about
TWMPMM I and TWMPMM II? Recently there have been losses in
soy meal,corn,platinum,japanese yen,sugar, etc. However,
recently things seem to be picking up. I would recommend that
after you begin to use real money you use options to trade
the more volatile commodities( currencies,oils,metals). For
example, right now Ken is down about $1,000 in the Canadian
Dollar. However I have lost only about $300 on the option.
If things turn around I will make less money but that's the
price you pay for peace of mind.
--
bil...@primenet.com
PMJI:
The KR Course is an introduction to the basics of commodity investing.
It is long on enthusiasm and short on fundamental analysis (actually,
fundamental analysis isn't covered at all). The course teaches how to spot
a few basic chart formations and suggests/recommends/insists that you
paper-trade for at least a few months before getting into the market for-real.
Overall, I was satisfied that my $200 wasn't wasted. The KR Course very
much over-simplifies a great many concepts; but the enthuriasm re-kindled
my long-latent interest in trading futures. I'm doing some paper-trading,
am using MetaStock to follow several contracts, am studying everything I can
get my hands on concerning technical analysis, and hope to be into the market
within the next few months. By then I will have gone far beyond what KR
teaches; but it was his enthusiasm that propelled me to consider (after a
hiatus of 20 years) commodity trading.
The KR Course is not the be-all and end-all for learning commodities. But I
believe it can awaken an interest in futures that should (could) propel the
student into deeper studies of TA and how the market works.
IMHO, of course.
Good Ol' BillyBob
Rebel Without A Clue
zn...@teleport.com
: There is much more to trading than technical analysis and a good program
: though; like money management, placement of stops, drawdown, and more.
: This I think is hard to learn from a book, but rational decisions might
: not be made when thousands of dollars are at stake so we read the books.
: I'm thinking of using AuditTrack to try and get a feel for the real
: think. This seems like a type of enhanced paper trading so I'm not sure
: of its value. It seems sort of like a "trendy" thing to do: Having a
: third party validate that you can paper trade well.
Trading is a business. Designing trading systems for sale is a
different business. Writing about trading or teaching people to trade
is yet another different business. Auditrack is a business expense to
those who design trading systems, but I don't think you'd be able to get
it by the IRS as a business expense if you're only a trader. Auditrack
is a waste of money if you want to be a trader. You would be far better
off accumulating the $80 or so a month Auditrack will charge you into a
mutual fund until it grows to the point where you can trade with it.
There are books about money management; Ralph Vince has written two good
ones. Alexander Elder's _Trading for a Living_ is another good book for
beginners. It covers trading systems, money management and psychology.
I don't trade. I write about trading on occasion and I do research on
the mathematics of trading, more as a hobby than a business. I make
enough money from the writing to pay for the books; that's really enough
for me. I am confident, though, that if I were forced to trade for a
living, I could do so. You can learn it from books.
: Here's an open question: How important are stops? I've ta;lked to
: floor traders who always warn me of picking obvious stops because they
: often try and hit them becasue they know alot of technical traders use
: them. But then how do you pick stops? A little above above for closing
: long and a little below for closing shorts? Any words of wisdom would be
: appreciated.
The best words of wisdom on stops I've seen is the chapter on the
subject in Perry Kaufman's latest book, _Smarter Trading_.
--
zn...@teleport.COM (M. Edward Borasky)
What phrase will you *never* hear Candice Bergen use?
"My daddy didn't raise no dummies!"