MA Electric Deregulation
Mary Barrows
electric industry, until recently. My latest bill was VERY
high, due to cost the MA Electric can now charge. I have
tried looking into the alternatives (provided through the
National Grid--MA Electric) with little success. Any
information would be greatly appreciated.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Russ
the greedy. Good luck.
Mary Barrows wrote:
--
X-No-Archive: Yes
Charlie Perrin
On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:27:59 GMT, Russ <exoth...@potroasthome.com>
wrote:
>Fight deregulation. Bills doubled in SDCA because of it. Call your
>representatives and rally fellow citizens. Regulation is necessary to
>protect us from the greedy.
Where's our distributed generation guy when you need him?
International Fuel Cells is working on a residental power and heat
generating fuel cell. Really interesting concept... they didn't have
any prices yet for the home unit (estimated availability 2002), but
they've done a LOT of commercial installations.
http://www.internationalfuelcells.com/
Just out of curiosity, I plugged in my residental rates to one of
their commercial fuel cell break-even calculators and figured out that
it would pay for itself in under four years.
---
Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for
the change to take effect. Reboot now? [OK]
Jeff N
Jeff N
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Charlie Perrin
>And your bird-dog fee is what?
I'm NOT a fuel-cell salesman, if that's what you want to know. I don't
even have any United Technologies stock... I just thought it was a
fascinating idea.
I'd be more likely to shill for photovoltaic sources... although the
ones I deal with are on space vehicles. (Some of them, such as the
Shuttle, do use fuel cells.)
Watson6844
de-reg.
I found your fuel cell info.very intersting. I can see where cell phones will
put the hard wire phone companys out of buss. and the fuel cell you talk about
will put the electric companys out on the street.Just a matter of time till all
the poles and wires go away. Great stuff. The electric industry is only 100
years old and will be just a blip on the timeline of history...thanks.
Tom Beckner
Watson6844 <watso...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000826113607...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
If true, do me a favor. Which company has found all the nat gas
to power the fuel cells and which company has the capability to
distribute the gas?
If the big money during the Gold Rush was made selling Levi's,
the big money on fuel cells will be made distributing and selling
the gas.
Tom Beckner
Charlie Perrin
wrote:
>If the big money during the Gold Rush was made selling Levi's,
>the big money on fuel cells will be made distributing and selling
>the gas.
Many urban areas already have most of the the infrastructure. It'll
only be an increase in volume (more year round, as many of the current
fuel cells also make heat for winter quite nicely).
danny burstein
>If true, do me a favor. Which company has found all the nat gas
>to power the fuel cells and which company has the capability to
>distribute the gas?
>If the big money during the Gold Rush was made selling Levi's,
>the big money on fuel cells will be made distributing and selling
>the gas.
depends greatly on the efficiency. If the home based cells are as, or
more, efficient than a central power plant, then the switchover will
actually save natural gas. (Yes, I know that on a national basis natural
gas only fires a small portion of power plants, but in areas like the
Northeast it's much higher).
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dan...@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
Watson6844
like. I find the idea they would be powered by a gas to be a short lived
concept. I think its out there someplace and 2002 is probely a pipe dream, but
its coming and will be fought. Like the oil companys fighting the alt. fueled
cars...just a matter of time.
Jeff N
Charlie Perrin <clpe...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 06:53:06 GMT, Jeff N <nutz...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >And your bird-dog fee is what?
>
> I'm NOT a fuel-cell salesman, if that's what you want to know. I don't
> even have any United Technologies stock... I just thought it was a
> fascinating idea.
>
OK, it's interesting. How much to retrofit a sufficient number of
dwellings to obviate the need for some form of
transmission/distribution system? Entirely new subdivisions would be a
good place to start, but what about the liability of all those
individual "power plants", who'll cover the maintenance, what happens
if the plant shuts down and your house is black? How long will the
wait for the repairman be?
The big utilities will fight it, obviously. But what about all those
municipalities (of which I'm a none too happy customer) which see
running an electric utility as a cash cow? Will these entities modify
zoning codes to allow what could be considered an industrial facility
to be built in a residential area? We're talking lawyers here. And
lots of money.
chas...@my-deja.com
Jeff N <nutz...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <bnnfqsg6hav0bhlp6...@4ax.com>,
>
> OK, it's interesting. How much to retrofit a sufficient number of
> dwellings to obviate the need for some form of
> transmission/distribution system? Entirely new subdivisions would be
> a good place to start, but what about the liability of all those
> individual "power plants", who'll cover the maintenance, what happens
> if the plant shuts down and your house is black? How long will the
> wait for the repairman be?
Initially, a fuel cell here and there might run in-parallel with
the utility, using the grid for back-up. A new subdivision might
have it's own micro-grid that allows any individual out-of-service
plant to be backed-up by others in the neighborhood. And there's
probably any number of entities that wouldn't mind making a
business out of providing service.
>
> The big utilities will fight it, obviously. But what about all those
> municipalities (of which I'm a none too happy customer) which see
> running an electric utility as a cash cow? Will these entities modify
> zoning codes to allow what could be considered an industrial facility
> to be built in a residential area? We're talking lawyers here. And
> lots of money.
>
> Jeff N
>
Many utilities are definitely fighting distributed generation (see
http://www.eren.doe.gov/distributedpower/barriersreport/), however,
there are also some that seem to be embracing it (see
http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2000/08/08252000/newsbytes_30858.asp
). Maybe some are just more progressive thinkers than others?
Re: Zoning codes - the DoE is coordinating fuel cell codes and
standards to insure these don't become another barrier to the
widespread use of fuel cells.
Robert
<watso...@aol.com> writes
As an outsider in the UK, I am surprised at your view on deregulation in
the famous "free market" of the US. As I understand, deregulation has
lead to considerable innovation in the UK. personally, I am interested
in CHP (sorry, you call it Co-gen), an impossible concept 10 years ago
because of the regulatory system.
With regard to fuel cells, National Power announced last week the
building of a fuel cell power station next to an existing gas station. I
think about a £30,000,000 project. Not huge, but a start.
--
Robert
Fundamentalist opposed to witchcraft
Charlie Perrin
On Sun, 27 Aug 2000 20:54:24 GMT, chas...@my-deja.com wrote:
>Re: Zoning codes - the DoE is coordinating fuel cell codes and
>standards to insure these don't become another barrier to the
>widespread use of fuel cells.
FWIW: I am not a fuel cell salesman, but I've read the literature.
IFC says that one of their design parameters is to have it no louder
than an outside air conditioner. Also, in a lot of places, fuel cells
are exempt from the permitting process (very low pollution levels).
chas...@my-deja.com
Charlie Perrin <clpe...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 27 Aug 2000 20:54:24 GMT, chas...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >Re: Zoning codes - the DoE is coordinating fuel cell codes and
> >standards to insure these don't become another barrier to the
> >widespread use of fuel cells.
>
> FWIW: I am not a fuel cell salesman, but I've read the literature.
>
> IFC says that one of their design parameters is to have it no louder
> than an outside air conditioner. Also, in a lot of places, fuel cells
> are exempt from the permitting process (very low pollution levels).
>
FWIW: I am not a fuel cell salesman either, but I have installed
a few and have operated one for 8 years. IFC/ONSI's PC25 is
relatively quiet (just your typical fan noise) and they are
exempt from air permitting in CA, MA and maybe some others.
Other kinds of permits may be required.
Tom Beckner
<chas...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8occdi$irf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> FWIW: I am not a fuel cell salesman either, but I have
installed
> a few and have operated one for 8 years. IFC/ONSI's PC25 is
> relatively quiet (just your typical fan noise) and they are
> exempt from air permitting in CA, MA and maybe some others.
> Other kinds of permits may be required.
Is there some way to quantify the efficiency of these convertors?
For example, x btu's gas input = y btu's electric output?
Tom Beckner
chas...@my-deja.com
"Tom Beckner" <beck...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> <chas...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8occdi$irf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> installed
> > a few and have operated one for 8 years. IFC/ONSI's PC25 is
> > relatively quiet (just your typical fan noise) and they are
> > exempt from air permitting in CA, MA and maybe some others.
> > Other kinds of permits may be required.
>
> For example, x btu's gas input = y btu's electric output?
>
> Tom Beckner
>
At 900 Btu/scf (Typ. Lower Heating Value of Nat. Gas),
that's an input of 1,710,000 Btu
200kW net out x 3412 Btu/kW = 682,400 Btu Elect.
That works out to be an Elect. Eff. of 40% LHV
There's also 700,000 Btuh of Recoverable Thermal
available, produced at an efficiency of 41%
If you can use all of that thermal, your combined
fuel utilization efficiency is 81% LHV
Watson6844
utility (lowly line foreman) and have saved 5% of my electric costs through
deregulation. But I read they are not doing as well on the West coast. I like
the idea of fuel cells because of the independence from monthly bills (if they
will be made small enough for home use) and not having the outage problems in
storms,etc.
Tom Beckner
<chas...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8of155$k27$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> If you can use all of that thermal, your combined
> fuel utilization efficiency is 81% LHV
Then it boils down to prudent shopping, $ / btu.
In your application, are you using the convertor for flexibility
or other?
How will your use be affected by current escalating nat gas
prices?
Thanks,
Tom Beckner
chas...@my-deja.com
>
> > If you can use all of that thermal, your combined
> > fuel utilization efficiency is 81% LHV
>
>
> In your application, are you using the convertor for flexibility
> or other?
>
the hospital's peak electric requirement while supplying hot
water for the laundry. So it's displacing grid electricity
and pipeline natural gas that would have been consumed for
water heating. It's running grid-connected (in parallel)
with the utility. Consequently, any shutdowns are
transparent to the customer . . . at least until the
electric bill comes!
> How will your use be affected by current escalating nat gas
> prices?
>
It all comes down to what we call the "spark gap" - the spread
between the cost of gas and electricity. Gas prices are up,
but fortunately, thanks to deregulation, the hospital's
electric rates have gone up more (30%). Btw, higher gas
prices are partly offset by the fact that it makes your
thermal energy worth more (assuming you would have used
natural gas to make it).
I would venture to say that the spark gap in most parts of
the country lets you make your own electricity for less than
what you can buy it for . . . it's just a question of 'how
much less'. That's what determines your payback period,
and whether or not you get an acceptable ROR on your power
plant investment.
> Thanks,
>
> Tom Beckner
Charles Perry
<chas...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8ohrk7$u9m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8ogj5e$slo$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
<snip>
>
> I would venture to say that the spark gap in most parts of
> the country lets you make your own electricity for less than
> what you can buy it for . . . it's just a question of 'how
> much less'. That's what determines your payback period,
> and whether or not you get an acceptable ROR on your power
> plant investment.
It would be hard to make electricity cheaper than you can buy it in some
parts of the county. In KY, for example, the average residential rate for
electricity is between 4 and 5 cents per kWh. It is very hard to make
electricity cheap enough to come out ahead once you have to pay for the
generating equipment.
About your fuel cell at the hospital, what is the ballpark installed cost?
size (kW)? What is the expected life of the reformer? How much waste heat
is produced to heat water (BTU)?
Thanks
Charles Perry P.E.
Tom Beckner
<chas...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8ohrk7$u9m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> It all comes down to what we call the "spark gap" - the spread
> between the cost of gas and electricity. Gas prices are up,
> but fortunately, thanks to deregulation, the hospital's
> electric rates have gone up more (30%).
Ok, if I have it right, you've got a uniform heat load to utilize
the thermal output and that leaves a uniform electric power
supply that you leverage (dollar wise) by reducing the demand
side of your electric bill.
Can you share the formula you use for calculating your "spark
gap" and monitoring the spread?
Thanks,
Tom Beckner
Paul Hovnanian Ž
>
> <chas...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8ohrk7$u9m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <8ogj5e$slo$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
> <snip>
> >
> > the country lets you make your own electricity for less than
> > what you can buy it for . . . it's just a question of 'how
> > much less'. That's what determines your payback period,
> > and whether or not you get an acceptable ROR on your power
> > plant investment.
>
> parts of the county. In KY, for example, the average residential rate for
> electricity is between 4 and 5 cents per kWh. It is very hard to make
> electricity cheap enough to come out ahead once you have to pay for the
> generating equipment.
>
> About your fuel cell at the hospital, what is the ballpark installed cost?
> size (kW)? What is the expected life of the reformer? How much waste heat
> is produced to heat water (BTU)?
How does the difference between your rate as a customer (an average of
your utilities various purchases) and the rate you are paid to
co-generate
(which is the avoided cost of the highest price your utility purchases)?
What is deregulation going to do to co-generation installations? In a
truly
deregulated market, generators sell directly to customers with the
distribution utility handling the maintenance, bookkeeping, etc. for
a fee. How will these people connect with customers in the market and
what will their prices look like?
--
Paul Hovnanian | (here) mailto:hovn...@bcstec.ca.boeing.com
Software Conflagration | (there) mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
Control | (spam) mailto:postm...@mouse-potato.com
-----------------------+---------------------------------------------
There was a man who entered a local paper's pun contest. He sent in ten
different puns, in the hope that at least one of the puns would win.
Unfortunately, no pun in ten did.
chas...@my-deja.com
"Tom Beckner" <beck...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, if I have it right, you've got a uniform heat load to utilize
> the thermal output and that leaves a uniform electric power
> supply that you leverage (dollar wise) by reducing the demand
> side of your electric bill.
>
> Can you share the formula you use for calculating your "spark
> gap" and monitoring the spread?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom Beckner
>
hospital's energy savings each month. It uses the hospital's
current electric tariff. Since they are on 'time-of-day'
billing, we track the number of 'on-peak' and 'off-peak' hours
the fuel cell operates to calculate energy savings. Demand
savings vary by season with a monthly ratchet - Summer demand
charges are 3x Winter. This input gets us avoided utility
electric charges.
We also track the number of Btu's we recover to make hot water,
and use the hospital's boiler efficiency to calculate their
avoided gas consumption.
From these gross savings we subtract the cost of the gas used
by the fuel cell to get the hospital's net savings.
Obviously, that's just the energy side - we still have to
subtract maintenance costs and ultimately overhaul costs to
get the full life-cycle costs for a power plant we expect to
last 20 years.
chas...@my-deja.com
> > the country lets you make your own electricity for less than
> > what you can buy it for . . . it's just a question of 'how
> > much less'. That's what determines your payback period,
> > and whether or not you get an acceptable ROR on your power
> > plant investment.
>
some
> parts of the county. In KY, for example, the average residential rate
for
> electricity is between 4 and 5 cents per kWh. It is very hard to make
> electricity cheap enough to come out ahead once you have to pay for
the
> generating equipment.
This is a 200kW power plant that has an electric efficiency
of 40%, so you would have to give me your commercial gas and
electric rates for me to tell if you can make your own
electricity cheaper. Even if the electricity came out
to be more expensive you could still come out ahead if
you include the free thermal energy you get. I don't
deny that you have to come out WAY ahead to get a decent
payback on something as expensive as a fuel cell. We're
still trying to find that magic commercialization strategy
that leads to volume production and cost reduction.
>
> About your fuel cell at the hospital, what is the ballpark installed
cost?
$850k
> size (kW)? What is the expected life of the reformer?
Not sure about reformer life - original one has over 40k hrs.
Cell stack life is the critical factor - this 1991
generation stack lasts about 40k hrs. - the latest
technology is expected to last longer.
> How much waste heat is produced to heat water (BTU)?
At full load there is over 700kBtus recoverable.
(See http://www.internationalfuelcells.com for more info.)
>
> Thanks
>
> Charles Perry P.E.
John Seymour
Paul Hovnanian Ž <hovn...@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> wrote:
> Charles Perry wrote:
> >
> > <chas...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8ohrk7
> > > the country lets you make your own electricity for less than
> > > what you can buy it for . . . it's just a question of 'how
> > > much less'. That's what determines your payback period,
> > > and whether or not you get an acceptable ROR on your power
> > > plant investment.
> >
some
> > parts of the county. In KY, for example, the average residential
rate for
> > electricity is between 4 and 5 cents per kWh. It is very hard to
make
> > electricity cheap enough to come out ahead once you have to pay for
the
> > generating equipment.
> >
installed cost?
waste heat
> > is produced to heat water (BTU)?
>
> your utilities various purchases) and the rate you are paid to
> co-generate
> (which is the avoided cost of the highest price your utility
purchases)?
>
> What is deregulation going to do to co-generation installations? In a
> truly
> deregulated market, generators sell directly to customers with the
> distribution utility handling the maintenance, bookkeeping, etc. for
> a fee. How will these people connect with customers in the market and
> what will their prices look like?
Paul,
In a truely deregulated market, aggregators will provide a market, as
only those with the largest loads will find it makes sense to purchase
their power direct from a generator. Likewise, most co-gens will
either sell into a pool, or to an aggregator, in part depending on the
reliability of their generation curve.
John Seymour
--
John Seymour
CHRIS WILLIAMS
Dear "lowly lineman:"
Do they have net metering in your state? Is it optional or a requirement?
And, what mechanisms are in place so that if you're working on a line which
supposedly has no current flowing through it, someone w/distributed
generation isn't inadvertantly putting current onto that line?
Watson6844 <watso...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000828223854...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
CHRIS WILLIAMS
Dear "lowly lineman:"
Do they have net metering in your state? Is it optional or a requirement?
And, what mechanisms are in place so that if you're working on a line which
supposedly has no current flowing through it, someone w/distributed
generation isn't inadvertantly putting current onto that line?
Watson6844 <watso...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000828223854...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
Charles Perry
electricity? You either supply it with natural gas which is "reformed" to
release hydrogen or you supply it with pure hydrogen. Either way, you have
a bill. Lets not forget the capital cost (and maintenance) for the unit
itself.
Charles Perry P.E.
"Watson6844" <watso...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000828223854...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
chas...@my-deja.com
"CHRIS WILLIAMS" <cac.f...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> Dear "lowly lineman:"
>
> Do they have net metering in your state? Is it optional or a
requirement?
> And, what mechanisms are in place so that if you're working on a line
which
> supposedly has no current flowing through it, someone w/distributed
> generation isn't inadvertantly putting current onto that line?
I can think of a couple of mechanisms:
Let's say a circuit is out - downed line or tripped substation brkr.
What's the chances of a small distributed generator carrying all the
load on that circuit w/o tripping on overload? Remote possibility.
But a better mechanism with something like a grid-connected
residential fuel cell is the fact that these systems use line-
commutated inverters. They act as current sources, not voltage
sources. If there is no grid voltage there is no current output.
On top of this, these inverters have built-in relay protection that
instantaneously disconnects the inverter on even a minor grid
disturbance. And since there is no rotating parts (none of the inertia
that a conventional generator has), inverters are incapable of
delivering much fault current.
CJ
news:7boeqsovbuppfv9cs...@4ax.com...
>
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:27:59 GMT, Russ <exoth...@potroasthome.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Fight deregulation. Bills doubled in SDCA because of it. Call your
> >representatives and rally fellow citizens. Regulation is necessary to
> >protect us from the greedy.
>
> Where's our distributed generation guy when you need him?
>
> International Fuel Cells is working on a residental power and heat
> generating fuel cell. Really interesting concept... they didn't have
> any prices yet for the home unit (estimated availability 2002), but
> they've done a LOT of commercial installations.
Its a great idea if you want backup power, but even under normal gas prices,
my utility gets it to me cheaper. It does beat a generator though, but I
wouldn't buy one thinking its gonna save me money by using it as my sole
source of power.
>
> http://www.internationalfuelcells.com/
>
> Just out of curiosity, I plugged in my residental rates to one of
> their commercial fuel cell break-even calculators and figured out that
> it would pay for itself in under four years.
CJ
news:8oabu4$ff3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
First you have to assume that the fuel cell can do it cheaper than the
utility. Even under normal gas prices you might see 9cents/kwh. But with
gas prices today?....about 13cents/kwh.
It is a much better option than a generator if you want to use it as
co-generation.
CJ
> I do not know any of the tech stuff around the cells or what they would
look
> like. I find the idea they would be powered by a gas to be a short lived
> concept. I think its out there someplace and 2002 is probely a pipe dream,
but
> its coming and will be fought.
Oh I don't know about that. Electric cooperatives are embracing it and
putting in as part of their plan under deregulation. Mostly because they
know it will not replace the electric distribution system, but rather give
customers a co-generation choice. And they will certainly help reduce
demand which will help utilities protect themselves and their customers from
price gouging in the summer time that deregulation has facilitated.
Like the oil companys fighting the alt. fueled
> cars...just a matter of time.
Well, the oil companies can fight it if they want, but I don't think people
are too jazzed about fuel cell cars. As a muscle car enthusiast, you can
keep them.