Disposition Action
Assaf Nattiv
nonconforming materials
hanks
--
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Scott Strachan
'Where you place or locate something (usually goods), under control' whilst
you decide what to do with it.
The general implication is to "Quarantine" non-conforming goods, or goods
thought to be non-conforming, until the real condition of the goods is
established, and what you will do with the goods once their status has been
established.
There are a variety of options you can review for non-conforming goods, but
there are so many 'conditional' criteria it wouldn't be helpful to identify
them.
Trust this is of some assistance.
Kind regards,
Scott Strachan
--
Andromeda Quality Assurance Services
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Consultancy to Manufacturing, Service, Medical & Defence Industries for:
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"Assaf Nattiv" <tq...@netvision.net.il> wrote in message
news:8d95m4$pf1$1...@news.netvision.net.il...
Marc Smith
Strachan at stra...@aqas.com.au wrote :
> "Disposition" generally means:
>
> 'Where you place or locate something (usually goods), under control' whilst
> you decide what to do with it.
>
> The general implication is to "Quarantine" non-conforming goods, or goods
> thought to be non-conforming, until the real condition of the goods is
> established, and what you will do with the goods once their status has been
> established.
I disagree. Disposition is a determination made during review of the
nonconforming material (some companies have material review boards, some
companies assign the responsibility to the quality manager, sometimes
operators make the disposition decision, etc.) and has nothing to do with
where you store nonconforming (or suspect) material (quarantine).
Typically disposition will be one of the following:
Use as is
Use by concession
Reprocess
Rework
Regrade
Scrap
Depends upon the industry.
Regards!
Marc T. Smith
Cayman Systems
8466 Lesourdesville - West Chester Road
West Chester, OH 45069-1929
Teleco: 513 777-3394
E-Mail: ma...@16949.com
Internet: http://www.16949.com
Forums: http://www.16949.com/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi
Govind
listed by Mark to take in order to either make the part reusable or
scrap.(also referred as corrective action).
Govind.
govin...@yahoo.com
In article <B51DFD8D.76DD%Ma...@16949.com>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Marc Smith
govin...@my-deja.com wrote :
> I agree with Mark.Disposition action is to identify the action as
> listed by Mark to take in order to either make the part reusable or
> scrap.(also referred as corrective action).
> Govind.
> govin...@yahoo.com
Shoot me for being picky.... But..... Corrective Action is the investigative
process which includes identification of Root Cause, 'fixing' the problem
and preventing it from happening again. Often Poke Yoke is used to ensure
the defect is identified (e.g. sensors) should it happen again (even though
root cause was addressed.... Hee hee!). Corrective action systems are 'old'
systems which many people (especially in automotive) currently know as an
8-D (Ford) or 7-D (Chrysler) system or process. Note that these companies
did not 'invent' the corrective action process / system, but rather
'popularized' them by requiring their suppliers to have such systems (if
only for the products they [Ford, et al] buy) and thus, for example, if you
are a Ford supplier you know what an 8-D is. Corrective action systems have
been around for many, many years in one form or another under various names.
This is a simplistic explanation, but my point is that typically Disposition
is part of the Nonconformance system, not the Corrective Action system - a
nonconforming product is identified, 'segregated' and dispositioned. It
should be noted that these systems typically interface directly with each
other and, in fact, are often thought of as parts of one system - a
Nonconformance and Corrective Action system. This is how I perceive them -
as one system with several elements. However, each element has different
purposes and are quite different.
In addition, while a nonconformance does not always trigger a corrective
action, a corrective action is pretty much always a result of a
nonconformance system output (such as a material review meeting where
disposition is determined and need for a corrective action is determined).
Also see:
http://www.qs9000.com/pdf_files/8-D_A.pdf
and
http://www.qs9000.com/pdf_files/NC_DBASE.pdf
Regards!
Marc
Marc Smith
> "Disposition" generally means:
>
> 'Where you place or locate something (usually goods), under control'
> whilst you decide what to do with it.
>
> The general implication is to "Quarantine" non-conforming goods, or
> goods thought to be non-conforming, until the real condition of the
> goods is established, and
I agree that the following:
> what you will do with the goods once their
> status has been established.
is 'Disposition'.
--------snippo-------
> Hi Marc,
>
> I still stand by my comments, but respect your opinion and right to
> disagree.
>
> It is generally understood that disposition is the segregation of goods (or
> services), ergo my reference to Quarantine.
I disagree that "...disposition is the segregation of goods...", is as you
say, 'generally understood'. I suggest that Disposition is generally
understood to be what happens to the item(s) in question once the evaluation
has been made.
> In my opinion, Disposition is an output of a process,
I agree - the output of the nonconformance process / system. Not
specifically 'where do we put these things', but rather what do we do with
them. Quarantine is not the process output. Quarantine may be 1 of many
dispositions, but it is not an output. It is an interim action - nothing
more than HOLD until we investigate.
The typical nonconformance system outputs are:
Use as is
Use by concession
Reprocess
Rework
Regrade
Scrap
and whether or not a Corrective Action is required.
Nonconforming product in and nonconforming product out. Quarantine is just
where you physically put something whilst await review and whilst you make
your determination (disposition of the nonconforming product) of what to do
with the items.
> the 'determination' you made reference to, is the process,
Nope - it's the END of the process.
> only the process inputs have not been identified.
Please explain... I understand the main input to a nonconformance system to
be nonconforming product (yes, service can be a product).
> Your comments regards the possible outcomes (scrap, rework etc,
Yes - outcomes. Process or system outputs.
> given the
> industry) are in my opinion the same comments I eluded to.
I didn't read it that way.
> The Industry, for
> example could be one where legal and/or regulatory requirements are
> involved; for simplicity I felt it was not prudent to list them.
Examples would be appreciated.
> Regards,
>
> Scott
I agree that technically you are, per dictionary definition,
'dispositioning' something when you 'quarantine' it (them), but in the
standard overview of a nonconformance system, the disposition 'block' is
typically the final disposition of the items as I described - Use as is, Use
by concession, Reprocess, Rework, Re-grade, and Scrap - as opposed to
interim actions.
Your stated definition is what got me:
> 'Where you place or locate something (usually goods), under control'
> whilst you decide what to do with it.
which is the definition (in my opinion) of Quarantine - not the definition
of Disposition. I would have agreed with you if you had limited your
definition to:
> what you will do with the goods once their
> status has been established.
I don't typically think of a place or an area as a disposition as you state
"...Where you place or locate...". I will agree that quarantine can be a
temporary disposition ("The product engineer's disposition is to mark it and
move it to quarantine."), but it (in most companies) is not the only
disposition and certainly is not the last nor the most important
disposition. Sooner or later you're going to have a 'final' disposition
which will be one of the ones I listed (Scrap, rework, etc.)
Taking a broad meaning, disposition can apply anywhere from receiving
inspection on. A receiving inspector may 'disposition' an incoming shipment
of material as "...'PASS' - Move to general stores..." In most
nonconformance systems the items could be dispositioned a number of times.
Disposition at the line by the operator, disposition after review by a
product or project or quality engineer, disposition by a quality manager,
etc., etc. up the line. When an operator decides that the 5 defects the
process has produced during his/her shift are SCRAP (the operator was
trained, of course...), that operator has dispositioned it as scrap. Where
scrap is put is the result of the disposition. When a disposition is to
"...move to quarantine..." it will definitely be dispositioned again as the
final disposition is being delayed for whatever reason (for example awaiting
review by a product engineer).
I guess I always look at interim 'dispositions' as pass/fail actions with
the meat where one of the above listed determinations is made as the 'final'
disposition.
Yes - you are correct that 'quarantine' is one disposition of many possible
dispositions. You have heard "..Disposition those as quarantine - awaiting
final disposition during material review..." I typically hear "...Move those
to quarantine to await disposition by a quality engineer..."
Marc Smith
skyco...@my-deja.com wrote :
> yes my dictionary's def'ns of disposition are great :)
> 1. one's customary manner of emotional response;temperament :"she had a
> lively,playful disposition,which delighted in anything ridiculous"
> (Jane Austin)
> hmmm - describes us nicely in the forum at times don't you think :)
> 2. a tendency or inclination,especially when habitual.
> hmmm - like the magnetic appeal of a quarantine area!! :)
> 3a. the act or manner of disposing
> hmmm - over the wall, under the carpet, in lorry loads?!! :)
> 3b. the condition or fact of being disposed
> hmmm - an occupational risk :)
> 4.the power or liberty to control,direct or dispose
> wow - sounds awesome!! :)
----------
> but,aside, according to hoyle - quality systems handbook (2ed 1994)
> disposition means 'to dispose of or decide what to do with the
> nonconforming item: whether to use it,repair it,scrap it etc'
Which is what I originally said and was 'taken to task' for. On the other
hand I do know one can use the broad definition, and many places folks do,
and apply the word 'disposition' in many places.
------------
> now shoot me.....
> mark said "Often Poke Yoke is used to ensure the defect is identified
> (e.g. sensors) should it happen again (even though root cause was
> addressed.... Hee hee!)" now i reckon, mark, poka-yoke is more in the
> spirit of preventing errors (preventive action) and only secondly
> corrective action. what you think - a point to us? :)
>
> sky collins
Yup - as I stated:
> "Often Poke Yoke is used to ensure the defect is identified
> (e.g. sensors) should it happen again (even though root cause was
> addressed.... Hee hee!)"
By this I tried to indicate that a corrective action took place when I said:
> should it happen again (even though root cause was
> addressed.... Hee hee!)
Sometimes true root cause is not addressed, although the investigators
thought they had found root cause as corrected what they thought was root
cause. This is why I put in the "Hee hee!" Yup - the sensor is a 'back up'.
You can call that preventive - if something does pop up for whatever reason,
it will (well, in most cases) not get past the sensors. Just a 100%
inspection which is automatic, involves no human action or decision and
happens at a rate that does not slow down the line.
I did post several links (I think I did. Maybe I was in a hurry and didn't),
including:
http://www.qs9000.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/000002.html
and
http://www.qs9000.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000016.html
for some lively debate on preventive action
Marc
sky
1. one's customary manner of emotional response;temperament :"she had a
lively,playful disposition,which delighted in anything ridiculous"
(Jane Austin)
hmmm - describes us nicely in the forum at times don't you think :)
2. a tendency or inclination,especially when habitual.
hmmm - like the magnetic appeal of a quarantine area!! :)
3a. the act or manner of disposing
hmmm - over the wall, under the carpet, in lorry loads?!! :)
3b. the condition or fact of being disposed
hmmm - an occupational risk :)
4.the power or liberty to control,direct or dispose
wow - sounds awesome!! :)
but,aside, according to hoyle - quality systems handbook (2ed 1994)
disposition means 'to dispose of or decide what to do with the
nonconforming item: whether to use it,repair it,scrap it etc'
now shoot me.....
mark said "Often Poke Yoke is used to ensure the defect is identified
(e.g. sensors) should it happen again (even though root cause was
addressed.... Hee hee!)" now i reckon, mark, poka-yoke is more in the
spirit of preventing errors (preventive action) and only secondly
corrective action. what you think - a point to us? :)
sky collins
sky
conversations together, and holds the train of thoughts. but, i have
to say that the 'your' website looks really good in content and has
fine smiley icons.
now I was agreeing with you on 'disposition' definition, please take
your point as read. seeing a funnyside I took the opportunity to raise
a cheer for fixtures/mistake-proofing devices/engineered thingybobs as
preventive (planned/pro-active).....just-in-case they might be solely
seen as (reactive) defect catchers (leading to reject) or for use only
in reponse to nonconformities - it was all that talk of scrap and
quarantine areas!! we seem to be in agreement anyhow & I think you
gave us a 1/2 point, good-on you!
Marc Smith
skyco...@my-deja.com wrote :
So much of all this is the interpretation of verbiage. Many times we (myself
included) have paradigms which are hard to shake.
Yup - it is my web site. I write the html, maintain the html, cgi's and the
server, pay for it and (at least so far) there are no distracting
advertisements. I maintain it as a resource and hope it provides information
you and many others can use. I 'push' the forums as they are excellent
'knowledge and experience depots'. I get a lot out of them and I know others
do as well. Do stop by from time to time.
sky
bit. however, promoting your site once more to emphasise a real point
here - that is poka-yoke as a preventive technique.
see marc's site (the link is on his previous message - forums)
goto/choose the statistical one and see the discussion on spc v poka-
yoke. there is a new posting from bev (given credit) which gives a
very good explanation with examples on poka-yoke and as a preventive
technique.
skyc
Marc Smith
skyco...@my-deja.com wrote :
> marc, you lost me there for a moment didn't catch the verbiage/paradigm
> bit. however, promoting your site once more to emphasise a real point
> here - that is poka-yoke as a preventive technique.
>
> see marc's site (the link is on his previous message - forums)
> goto/choose the statistical one and see the discussion on spc v poka-
> yoke. there is a new posting from bev (given credit) which gives a
> very good explanation with examples on poka-yoke and as a preventive
> technique.
>
> skyc
Yes - Bev gave a very detailed and appreciated contribution. I tend to be
kinda short from time to time with my responses - I admit short answers can
be misleading. I again thank her here for her contribution!