Primerica
LALA
insurance. Can anyone tell me about this company and the experience they
had with it. Is it a pyramid company? I felt a little uneasy with this
agent so I was just wondering if it is a good company to have my insurance
with...Thanks for the help...Tom
merl
real, I wouldn't recommend buying life insurance from anyone who you don't
trust. Call 3 or 4 agents and get some competitive quotes.
LALA <LA...@LALA.COM> wrote in message
news:01bf3116$4f19ddc0$168db7d8@s191453...
KSB
zksb
Robert C. Thomas
what they offer, term, is what you're looking for. They are not the
cheapest source of term, but if you don't feel like shopping around, their
term is certainly adequate for your purpose.
The ARE a network marketing, or MLM firm, yes.
cheers
bob
LALA <LA...@LALA.COM> wrote in article
<01bf3116$4f19ddc0$168db7d8@s191453>...
MoBL
business in so they have min. standards they must comply with.
It's the agent of that company or any company you MUST be comfortable with.
1. Did you discuss specific insurance needs?
2. Did he have any credentials? Professional training etc.
3. How long has this agent been in the insurance business?
Terry Burnett
> I had a Primerica agent at my home the other night to discuss life
> insurance. Can anyone tell me about this company and the experience they
> had with it.
Primerica is basically a product-pushing enterprise. Their agents have
already
pre-determined that you need term insurance -- no matter how old you are,
what your financial situation is, or what kind of policy you may already
have.
> Is it a pyramid company?
It does have a multi-level marketing structure, if that's what you mean.
There is nothing wrong with that in itself, but MLM products tend to be
overpriced when compared to the competition.
> I felt a little uneasy with this
> agent so I was just wondering if it is a good company to have my insurance
> with...
That depends on how you define "good". :) Primerica's financial strength
is beyond question, but most of their agents are pushy, negative, part-time
salespeople. I would hesitate to call them professionals.
So, let your feelings be your guide!
TLB
Deluxe license
>I had a Primerica agent at my home the other night to discuss life
>insurance. Can anyone tell me about this company and the experience they
>had with it. Is it a pyramid company? I felt a little uneasy with this
>agent so I was just wondering if it is a good company to have my insurance
>with...Thanks for the help...Tom
Primerica bought the old "A.L. Williams "company formerly known as
Penn Corp and Mass. Life and whatever else. They were big into the
"buy term and invest the difference" philosophy. My experience is if
you need term insurance there are better rated companies with lower
premiums then what they offer. If you follow their advice to the
letter then you should buy off the internet, eliminating the big
commission to their agent.
They used to have a misleading article showing they were an "A" rated
company. The misleading part is that with the specific rating firm it
was actually a lower level than it implied.
It is odd however that Primerica is so dead set against permanent
insurance and their affiliated (Parent?) companies market permanent
plans. Strange bed fellows ?
Last I heard their former leader was in an island off the coast of the
US avoiding Ameican jurisdiction. I could be wrong about that and I
appologize if that is not true. I would be interested in knowing
whatever happened to godd ole'boy Art.
Dag nab it if that fella didn't make a bunch of money jess heppen us
uneducated folks from the evils of the big bad insurance industry.
Years ago Primerica used almost exculsively part-time agents, many
with temporary licenses. I have not stayed current with them for
several years so I am not sure if their modus operandi has changed.
I would not go to a part-time anybody for professional services I
needed.
Terry B, CIC, LUTCF
CoverMe
: insurance. Can anyone tell me about this company and the experience they
: had with it. Is it a pyramid company? I felt a little uneasy with this
: agent so I was just wondering if it is a good company to have my
insurance
: with...Thanks for the help...Tom
Tom, you have asked about the single most hotly debated issue in this
newsgroup. The topic of Primerica (or PFS) is explosive, one might say.
Rather than having this flamefest rehashed, I recommend you do a Deja News
search on the keywords "Primerica" or "PFS." (Incidentally, posts by
CoverMe or Stripeypants are mine.)
For the record, I would sooner invite an entire congregatoin of
Jehovah's witnesses into my living room. One note, too . . . read your
next few emails with caution. You will undoubtedly have a number of PFS
agents "whisper" to you by email about how great PFS is, and how all of us
on the newsgoup are jealous and prejudiced against them. It's crap, of
course, but I (and most others here) make no apologies for our criticism of
PFS. I trust that you will use your head, follow your instincts, and do a
lot of homework before selecting a life insurance agent or company.
And finally, if this thread heats up, I will be more than happy to weigh
in again. We haven't had a real PFS battle in a while . . . maybe it's
time.
Trey Hutt, CPCU
remove tigger ti email
Mitch Bright
than any other company out there. They are literally the friends and family
outfit within the industry. I can tell that they have already tried to recruit
you. Do yourself a favor and find an agent who has proven to be a career agent
not a parttimer, look for a CLU or a CFP to get the real information on
purchasing life insurance.
By the way I think the way the pyramid works is if you recruit or sell six
your friends and family you become a VP with the company (in title only) for
the next six months then you run out of friends and family and your out of
business.
Elaine
whole time explaining how much money you could make by getting other people
to work for you. Never once mentioned what the work was.
--
-- Elaine
LALA wrote in message <01bf3116$4f19ddc0$168db7d8@s191453>...
Terry Burnett
.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
LALA <LA...@LALA.COM> wrote
> I had a Primerica agent at my home the other night to discuss life
> insurance. Can anyone tell me about this company and the experience they
> had with it.
Primerica is basically a product-pushing enterprise. Their agents have
already
pre-determined that you need term insurance -- no matter how old you are,
what your financial situation is, or what kind of policy you may already
have.
> Is it a pyramid company?
It does have a multi-level marketing structure, if that's what you mean.
There is nothing wrong with that in itself, but MLM products tend to be
overpriced when compared to the competition.
> I felt a little uneasy with this
> agent so I was just wondering if it is a good company to have my insurance
> with...
That depends on how you define "good". :) Primerica's financial strength
is beyond question, but most of their agents are pushy, negative, part-time
salespeople. I would hesitate to call them professionals.
So, let your feelings be your guide!
Terry Burnett
will...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>There ought to be some interesting reactions to this. Lala, if you are for
>real, I wouldn't recommend buying life insurance from anyone who you don't
>trust. Call 3 or 4 agents and get some competitive quotes.
>
>LALA <LA...@LALA.COM> wrote in message
>news:01bf3116$4f19ddc0$168db7d8@s191453...
>> I had a Primerica agent at my home the other night to discuss life
>> insurance. Can anyone tell me about this company and the experience they
>> had with it. Is it a pyramid company? I felt a little uneasy with this
>> agent so I was just wondering if it is a good company to have my insurance
>> with...Thanks for the help...Tom
Don't walk, run away from primerica. Did the hair on the back of your
neck give you a hint that primerica was just as interested in
recruiting you as an agent as selling you insurance. My advice is
call a few captive agents (Farmers, State Farm,) and a few brokers
compare products, company rating and agent knowledge and then
make your choice of company and product. Good luck
posandrew
FYI:
Here's an excerpt from The Inner City Press' opposiiton to the
Citicorp merger with Travelers/Primerica.
"Primerica Financial Services (“PFS”) is a multi-layered marketing
operation that recruits salespeople to push term life insurance, high
priced home equity loans and fee-laden investment products on LMI and
lower-middle class people, not based on the comparative merits of these
products, but based on personal “hard sell,” “over the kitchen table.”
"
The opposition to the merger was about Citicorps' predatory redlining
practices in low-income neighborhoods. Primerica would be used to
target low-income neighborhoods with high cost insurance and investment
products. Here's the URL to the complete transscript.
http://www.innercitypress.org/samprot.html
Here's testimony by Josh Zinner from the South Brooklyn Legal Services
before the Federal Reserve Board. Mr. Zinner testifies to the board
about Primerica's reps exaggerating and misrepresenting their products
to less sophisticated consumers. The testimony by Mr. Zinner starts on
Section 178 Line 9.
(You may have to cut & paste)
http://www.bog.frb.fed.us/events/publicmeeting/19980625/panel5.htm
Lastly, here's a former Primerica rep. This is a couple letters to an
MLM information site. Look at the bottom 2 letters for what this
former Primerica rep has to say.
http://www.mlmsurvivor.com/post18.htm
I believe the above letter writer could be the same person as sranney
in the mutual funds newsgroup. Just do a search for "sranney" and
"Primerica" on deja.com and you'll see many of his comments about a
month ago.
posandrew
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
posandrew
"Robert C. Thomas" <ski...@kitsune.swcp.com> wrote:
> If what you need is a specific amount of insurance for a specific
time,
> what they offer, term, is what you're looking for. They are not the
> cheapest source of term, but if you don't feel like shopping around,
their
> term is certainly adequate for your purpose.
How did you determine this gentleman's "need"? Did you have an
appointment with him to determine his "purpose"? Why did you assume
someone didn't want to shop around for lower priced term?
poasandrew
> The ARE a network marketing, or MLM firm, yes.
>
> cheers
>
> bob
>
> LALA <LA...@LALA.COM> wrote in article
> <01bf3116$4f19ddc0$168db7d8@s191453>...
> > I had a Primerica agent at my home the other night to discuss life
> > insurance. Can anyone tell me about this company and the
experience they
> > had with it. Is it a pyramid company? I felt a little uneasy with
this
> > agent so I was just wondering if it is a good company to have my
> insurance
> > with...Thanks for the help...Tom
> >
>
Robert C. Thomas
<81i8t9$r7c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
I see you're keeping up your tradition of half formed concepts and silly
questions.
> How did you determine this gentleman's "need"?
I didn't. I said "IF".
Did you have an
> appointment with him to determine his "purpose"?
Of course not. IF this was his need, then term was what he should be
looking at. I do not assume it, I take it as a possibility.
Why did you assume
> someone didn't want to shop around for lower priced term?
>
Again, I did not assume that, I merely accepted it as a possibility. IF
all those things were true, doing business with Primerica might be
acceptable. There are those who're willing to pay a premium for
convenience. There are worse things than buying Term from Primerica.
Having no insurance, for instance. Letting yourself be hurried into buying
WL, when Term was the appropriate instrument. Even, for the sake of the
argument, being rushed into buying VUL when temporary insurance was the
need.
You're allowing your prejudices to skew your understanding of what was
posted. Get somebody to read it to you. ;>)
cheers
bob
posandrew
>There are those who're willing to pay a premium for
> convenience. There are worse things than buying Term from Primerica.
> Having no insurance, for instance. Letting yourself be hurried into
>buying
> WL, when Term was the appropriate instrument. Even, for the sake of
>the
> argument, being rushed into buying VUL when temporary insurance was
>the
> need.
> You're allowing your prejudices to skew your understanding of what was
> posted. Get somebody to read it to you. ;>)
>
> cheers
>
> bob
Hey Bob,
People pay a little more for candy bars at 7-11 for convenience. Life
insurance is a little different. People pay more for expert advice and
they'll pay more for a trustworthy rep. But apparently, expert advice
and trustworthiness seems to be lacking among the Primerica MLMers.
People don't want to pay for superficial advice.
posandrew
SCat999999
What a joke,,,we're talking about a PFS agent here...LOL
Go ahead, post here anyone that has ever come across a PFS agent with a
professional designation that required additional continuing ed such as LUTCF,
CLU, ChFC, CFP. Anything other than that joke designation they call themselves
Personal Financial Analyst (or Assistant as they are referred to on the PFS web
site).
Steve, LUTCF
SCat999999
>> agent
Trust your gut instinct.
Steve,LUTCF
Robert C. Thomas
>
>
> People pay a little more for candy bars at 7-11 for convenience. Life
> insurance is a little different.
Oh, really? If that were the case, the only life insurance sold would be
the cheapest, right?
People pay more for expert advice and
> they'll pay more for a trustworthy rep.
Perhaps. Some people pay more to get ripped off, as it happens. So,
what's a trustworthy rep to you? There's been considerable discussion of
exactly what that is here on the ngs. Some maintain that only a fee based,
non commissioned advisor can be truly objective. Others maintain that only
those with credentials such as CFP, etc. are expert. Some people avoid
thinking about death, insurance, etc. and will only buy from an agent who
seeks them out....over their kitchen table so to speak. They may intend to
shop around but never get around to it. Others just don't want to be
bothered.
But apparently, expert advice
> and trustworthiness seems to be lacking among the Primerica MLMers.
This is true of many that I have met. But, I haven't met them all, or a
significant number of the total of agents. I will admit that the vocal
(fingeral?) types that we often get on these ngs lack expertise. I won't
speak to "trustworthiness". Most of the PFS agents I've met and
corresponded with are pretty true to themselves. It's their training I
object to.
> People don't want to pay for superficial advice.
>
Whatever. My point was not that they did. You are working very hard here
to find grounds for disagreement.
cheers, anyway.
bob
Forrest Jackson
>On Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:11:31 GMT, "LALA" <LA...@LALA.COM> wrote:
>>I had a Primerica agent at my home the other night to discuss life
>>insurance. Can anyone tell me about this company and the experience they
>>had with it. Is it a pyramid company? I felt a little uneasy with this
>>agent so I was just wondering if it is a good company to have my insurance
>>with...Thanks for the help...Tom
>Primerica bought the old "A.L. Williams "company formerly known as
>Penn Corp and Mass. Life and whatever else. They were big into the
>"buy term and invest the difference" philosophy. My experience is if
>you need term insurance there are better rated companies with lower
>premiums then what they offer. If you follow their advice to the
>letter then you should buy off the internet, eliminating the big
>commission to their agent.
>They used to have a misleading article showing they were an "A" rated
>company. The misleading part is that with the specific rating firm it
>was actually a lower level than it implied.
>It is odd however that Primerica is so dead set against permanent
>insurance and their affiliated (Parent?) companies market permanent
>plans. Strange bed fellows ?
>Last I heard their former leader was in an island off the coast of the
>US avoiding Ameican jurisdiction. I could be wrong about that and I
>appologize if that is not true. I would be interested in knowing
>whatever happened to godd ole'boy Art.
You show how truly little you know. For your information until this
year Art Williams was the owner of the NHL's Tampa Bay Lightning. It
is a good thing you have those initials after your name, as you are
obviously an expert on misinformation.
Forrest Jackson
>Yes, it's a pyramid company. I went to a recruitment meeting. They spent the
>whole time explaining how much money you could make by getting other people
>to work for you. Never once mentioned what the work was.
>--
>-- Elaine
>LALA wrote in message <01bf3116$4f19ddc0$168db7d8@s191453>...
>>I had a Primerica agent at my home the other night to discuss life
>>insurance. Can anyone tell me about this company and the experience they
>>had with it. Is it a pyramid company? I felt a little uneasy with this
>>agent so I was just wondering if it is a good company to have my insurance
>>with...Thanks for the help...Tom
It is not a pyramid. A pyramid is illegal, it is a multi-level
marketing company.
MAREE1968
posandrew
Here's some recent insights by a former Primerica Rep.:
http://www.easynet.ca/~mhenderson/
Here are some numbers from a pro-MLM site:
http://www.onlinemlm.com/copages/57.HTM
Gross sales $1,500,000,000
# of Primerica reps 153,000
That means that, on average, each rep brings in $9,804 worth of sales
to Primerica. After operating expenses and corporate salaries are paid
out, the gross amount to reps would be less.
CoverMe
: marketing company.
Potayto, potahto. Forrest, you are quite obviously fresh out of the PFS
indoctrination seminar. To your credit, you spouted the line correctly,
but the illustration is still valid. (Perhaps you could next use the old
Armed Forces "pyramid" example that ALW used to teach.) Too much time at
PFS is spent on recruiting downline and high-pressure sales, and not enough
is spent on training and ethics, no matter what you call the sales
structure.
If you think you would enjoy buying your life insurance and getting
financial advice from an Amway salesman, you will be right at home in
dealing with Primerica. . . very, very similar style.
Trey Hutt, CPCU
LarryStiver
>Potayto, potahto. Forrest, you are quite obviously fresh out of the PFS
>indoctrination seminar. To your credit, you spouted the line correctly,
>but the illustration is still valid. (Perhaps you could next use the old
>Armed Forces "pyramid" example that ALW used to teach.) Too much time at
>PFS is spent on recruiting downline and high-pressure sales, and not enough
>is spent on training and ethics, no matter what you call the sales
>structure.
>
>If you think you would enjoy buying your life insurance and getting
>financial advice from an Amway salesman, you will be right at home in
>dealing with Primerica. . . very, very similar style.
SO VERY VERY TRUE!!!!!
Larry
GoWildcats
># of Primerica reps 153,000
I'll add fuel to this fire for fun...
I hear that they sell something like $50 BILLION in coverage -- that's a lot.
Puts them in the top 2 or 3 in the USA.
50,000,000,000 divided by 153,000
equals $326,797
$326,797 is the average production of a PFS agent. That's not much. Sounds
like they write one or maybe two familes, then return to their day jobs.
Experience is a function of exposure. Agents only producing a third of a
million in term aren't getting much exposure, therefore, not much experience.
What prudent person would place the financial security of their family in the
hands of somebody with so little experience?
peefis
between a pyramid, an MLM, and an MLM that breaks MLM law. The fact that
PFS has products probably keeps it from being a pyramid. But the fact
that some PFShttp://home1.gte.net/kenyoung/williams PFAs high-pressure
prospects into paying an "optional" $199 fee for the right to recruit
others puts it in a grey area somewhere between an MLM that breaks MLM
law and a pyramid.
IOn any event, MLM is the same concept as a pyramid scheme, except it
disguises it activity by involving products. What the product
requirement laws have shown is that it wasn't only the fact that there
was no product that led to people being ripped off: it is the
compensation structure itself which is severely flawed. Whether or not
there is a product, the same flaws that exist in an illegal pyramid
exist in a legal MLM, and (Canadian) people would do well to read
section 55 and 55.1 of the Competition Act--use your seach engine on
your browser and look up Competition Bureau--and to learn to recognize
an MLM when they see one. Then, stay away! Just say NO! Hang up the
phone! Whatever!
peefis
________
I would be interested in knowing
> whatever happened to godd ole'boy Art.
_________
This is the newest post on Art I can find
peefis
of the Primerica debate but I thinks its really important that it be
stressed by as many people as possible who have dealt with a PFA to
relate their experience.
PFAs often do not let their prospects know the entire truth because a)
they themselves don't know it and haven't bothered to find out and b)
they have found out but have "invested" so much money in pep rallies and
Voicetel and other expenses that they choose to continue to deceive
people rather than pull the plug and start over.
IF
> all those things were true, doing business with Primerica might be
> acceptable.
IMO, IF this person needs term, then it makes sense to pay the least
amount possible for term. Shopping around is essential since Primerica's
term is very expensive compared to many other company's term. In
addition, very affordable term can be bought through Alumni
associations, clubs, or the workplace, if they have a plan in place.
While I understand the limitations of group plans, they are the most
affordable and the limitations are not sufficient in most cases to rule
them out as a possibility for inexpensive temporary coverage.
There are those who're willing to pay a premium for
> convenience. There are worse things than buying Term from Primerica.
> Having no insurance, for instance.
Well, if you consider having a pushy salesman at your kitchen table
refusing to take no for an answer and being unable to answer a guestion
with an answer, rather than a question, and if you consider being
hounded to join an MLM company a "convenience" then go ahead and pay a
premium.
As for having no insurance, it is a question of risk. What is the risk
you will die this year? What is the rate of mortality for a person your
age in your health with your habits? The insurance company is gambling
the face value of your policy against your premiums that you are NOT
going to die. IF the company has any reason to believe you will die,
they will not insure you.
So don't rush out and buy insurance. Take your time and shop for what
you need. So far, I have saved over $800 dollars by cancelling my
Primerica policy. I realize there is a risk that I will get hit by a car
tomorrow, but it is a small risk I am willing to take for now.
If you are NOT an income provider for a dependent, you may think about
just covering the cost of putting you in the ground. Your death needn't
be a financial winfall for anyone, and your life needn't be a investment
into an insurance policy. You decide what you want to leave behind in
the event of your death, and remember that in ordinary circumstances,
you will probably live a long boring life like the rest of us.
peefis
Mitch Bright wrote:
>
> By the way I think the way the pyramid works is if you recruit or sell six
> your friends and family you become a VP with the company (in title only) for
> the next six months then you run out of friends and family and your out of
> business.
>
Close. For those care, the Canadian model is: your first six sales are
training sales to your friends and family for which the proceeds go to
someone else. Your friends and family must be very forgiving if you go
this route because your trainer will ask you to lie to them by telling
them you are starting a new business and just want their opinion. When
you show up with your trainer, he or she will pour on the steam and try
to sell sell sell while you sit there going, oh no, what have I done?
Even if they love you very much they may still not do business with you.
I hope you have a large circle of friends and family because about 1
person in 100 will do business with you.
Once you have completed your six training transactions AND recruited one
person, you get to keep 25% of your sales. Then you have to do so many
sales a month PLUS recruit one or two people to get to keep 50% of your
sales. If you get this far, by now you are starving and wondering where
the rent payment is going to come from. You either quit or become very
good at sales very quickly.
It goes on this way through 3 or 4 more levels until you get a shot at
RVP. This requires, if I remember my former training correctly, $10,000
a month is gross sales two months in a row, and 10 people in your
downline. When you go RVP, you give your best "leg," that is your best
earning line of recruits, to your RVP. Go figure.
Now, having lost your best salespeople, you get to take on the expense
of an office and office staff--at least one person, the office
secretary, gets a real job out of the deal--and try and find people as
good as the ones you left in your RVPs office. When my recruiter thought
he was about to go RVP, I chant "we're number two, we're number two" at
the pep rallies, because I didn't want to be left in THAT friggin
office.
As it turns out, my trainer lost his dream somehere amidst the late rent
payments and 25 year old used automobile payments, and went back to his
old profession shortly after I anulled my contract. I guess he got tired
of missing his kids birthdays.
So, why did you want to get into financial services anyway? Because
someone who doesn't know you from Eve told you so? Someone who has
everything to gain from your participation--especially gaining from your
"warm market" of family and friends?
MLM is bad bad bad. Citigroup is BAD BAD BAD. Primerica reps are bad bad
bad. I can't say anything bad about Primerica itself, because they have
already threatened to sue me for telling on them. Called it "libel,"
that lovely anti-free speech pro-corporate law that forces us to put up
$$$$$ or shut up.
peefis
> > Is it a pyramid company?
>
> It does have a multi-level marketing structure, if that's what you mean.
> There is nothing wrong with that in itself, but MLM products tend to be
> overpriced when compared to the competition.
>
If MLM products tend to be overpriced, then isn't there at least one
thing wrong with MLM itself--that the products are overpriced? Is it
possible there are more things wrong with it? Like the fact that every
MLM rep is primarily an MLM customer? That is, they will give more money
to the comapny than they will make?
Forrest Jackson
>What I learned through experience is that there is a very fine line
>between a pyramid, an MLM, and an MLM that breaks MLM law. The fact that
>PFS has products probably keeps it from being a pyramid. But the fact
>that some PFShttp://home1.gte.net/kenyoung/williams PFAs high-pressure
>prospects into paying an "optional" $199 fee for the right to recruit
>others puts it in a grey area somewhere between an MLM that breaks MLM
>law and a pyramid.
The $199 fee is not for recruiting. The fee covers your life/health
insurance exam costs(pre-licensing class,state fees,etc.). You get a
life/health license which you can use with PRIMERICA or you can
transfer to another company. Where is the illegality in this?
If you were all honest in here, you would admit that your dislike for
PRIMERICA has nothing to do with the MLM structure, their agents lack
of experience, or the good of the consumer, but it has to do with
their agents taking money out of your pockets. Most people do not
have a need for the cash value policies you pawn on them. Most people
need to buy as much insurance coverage as they can afford and term
fits that requirement. I will not lie to you and say that all PFS
agents are perfect and aleways do what is right for the client, but
you have your bad seeds in all walks of life, including non-PFS
agents.
Richard Clemons
Cal_Lester
life/health
> insurance exam costs(pre-licensing class,state fees,etc.).
You get a
> life/health license which you can use with PRIMERICA or you
can
> transfer to another company. Where is the illegality in this?
Let me start out by stateing in no uncertain terms,
that I am NOT
going to get embroiled in the BTID vs: Permanent
debate again.
However, as an Insurance Instructor, IF the above
statement is
correct, that the &199 fee covers ALL of the costs
of pre-license
schooling, preparation & exam costs & State fees,
then it is in
reality a bargain. At Broward Community College, we
charge
$165.00 just for the classes, the State then charges
their own
additional fees, something in the ordr of an
additional $180.00
>
> If you were all honest in here, you would admit that your
dislike for
> PRIMERICA has nothing to do with the MLM structure, their
agents lack
> of experience, or the good of the consumer, but it has to do
with
> their agents taking money out of your pockets. Most people do
not
> have a need for the cash value policies you pawn on them.
Most people
> need to buy as much insurance coverage as they can afford and
term
> fits that requirement.
I must however take umbrage at your statement
above that
"most people do NOT have a need for the cash
value policies
you pawn on them".
Without getting into the merits of the term vs C
V contracts
themselves, the mere fact that you could use a
phraze like
"most people" tends to show that you are using a
"one
glove fits all" approach.
A qualified proffesional Life Insurance Agent
(with any company
including PFS) would first determine the needs &
wants of the
client, by conducting a fact finding/feeling
finding interview.
Cal Lester CLU
CoverMe
: >> It is not a pyramid. A pyramid is illegal, it is a multi-level
: >> marketing company.
Pyramid, MLM, Ponzi schemes. . . whatever. The vocabulary lesson is over.
Here is the real deal with AL Williams/Primerica/PFS/Citigroup (insert your
other favorite name here). You can all it what you like. Primerica
lackeys will get you caught up in semantics all day long. For the purposes
of this argument, let's just call it The Marketing Method (TMM). The
primary components of TMM include recruitment of others to sell on your
behalf, and motivating those people to recruit others, as well. You cannot
ever make any real money with TMM until you have recruited a bunch of
downline to work for you. The BIG Producers that PFSers always cite when
selling/recruiting have downlines longer and deeper than the Marianas
Trench. Lately, the ones they seem to cite are the guys in the executive
suite with cushy guaranteed salaries and tasty stock options.
So, what are the results of TMM on sales, products, recruitment, and the
like? Just so we don't offend any PFS sensitivities, let's look at other
MLM-focused businesses in general. Many MLM companies have inferior
products. As such, they tend to use high-pressure tactics so they can make
a sale. Since this high-pressure approach has a limited lifespan, most MLM
salespeople aren't in the business very long. That lends itself to very
little training, average experience that is obviously quite low, and low
professionalism as a result. Many MLM salespeople (and the firms for whom
they work) have little genuine care for the client/customer, since the
sales agent will be long gone before repeat business (or a life insurance
claim) can even be considered.
With such a sales-focused approach, not much time is left for anything
else, such as training. Commission-only sales is a tough gig. Beginners
have no safety net, so they usually have to hold another job, working the
MLM only part-time. This lends itself to younger, less experienced workers
since older ones often have families to feed. In the pressure to make a
sale, ethics may be compromised either due to lack of training or financial
pressures.
Finally, consider distribution costs. Buy a widget from an MLM company.
On top of the other distribution costs, the widget company must pay the
salesperson a commission. Then, pay his upline. And his upline. And his
upline. And HIS upline.
And, as the final nail in the coffin, on a percentage basis, how much of
the spam in your email box is distributed using an MLM format? MLM is not
the end-all, be-all it claims to be. Consider Amway. Any Amway person
will tell you that they have, for the most part, the same access to all the
same products as, say, Wal-Mart. I don't see Wal-Mart cowering in fear of
Amway, so it seems to me that MLM is not an inherently superior
distribution method.
I think I've made my point. Now, for you PFSers out there, you can talk
commissions all day long. Yes, other life insurance companies pay
commission. The comparison is pointless. PFS touts its salespeople as
financial consultants providing a valuable professional service (as do most
life insurance carriers). Commission and fee-for-service is important to
such a business. My real estate broker works on commission as does my
stockbroker. Fine. Why aren't these professional services based on an MLM
concept? Let me pose an open question, then . . . would you invest your
money or buy a home based on an MLM offer? Would you buy your mutual funds
at Amway? Would an internet MLM offer entice you to sign a real estate
sales contract?
Final questions for the PFS crowd. . .
1) Why do PFSers have a significantly shorter time in the business than
the industry average?
2) Why is PFS per capita income below the industry average?
3) Why was ALW (now PFS) the company most often cited by state regulators
in US history?
4) If you are inherently superior, why the argumentative, industry-bashing
approach?
5) If cash value life is inherently bad, why share corporate turf with
Travelers?
6) How many Fortune 500 CEOs have PFS products in their portfolios?
7) Why does PFS have a lapse rate among the highest in the industry?
Yes, you may consider that as bait. Put your gloves on. Let's rumble.
Trey Hutt, CPCU
Hutt Insurance
"We've got you covered."
DF0328
>to him as an investment. Wow, some investment, perhaps the agent was
>not licensed to broker any mutual funds, unlike a PFS agent.
HMMMM.... sounds like it could have been an inappropriate vehicle for
investing. However, when was this that he had the policy? What was the policy
earning? was it with a good mutual paying nice dividends? The reason I ask is
that, contrary to contemporary investment risk tolerances, the market ain't
always done what it is doing now. It is easy to be critical of products other
than equity-grade investments if we look at only the last 10 years track
records. Anyone remember the "roaring" 1970s stock market. Needless to say
the rollercoaster has been at the top of the ride for a long time now.
It is a mistake to assume that just because PFS agents have license to sell
mutual funds that other agents don't. Most agents with most companies are dual
licensed if for no other reason than it is required to sell Variable Annuities
and Variable Life.
>Before
>you trash the PFS investments, he is now investing in Van Kampen's
>Emerging Growth fund(check the track record)
I didn't see anything in here trashing the actual investments. However, Van
Kampen is NOT a PFS product. PFS maybe can broker it (like all brokers), but
the crux of this argument would go to the fact that some PFS proprietary funds
carry a pretty hefty 8.5% FRONT LOAD. That is the legal maximum sales charge
allowed by law. I can't think of any "known" family of funds that would dare
charge more that 5.75%.
>and has $150,000 of
>25-year term coverage
If that is what he needs, and since he has a home, wife and no children (I
assume since you didn't mention it) then it seems he is all set. No one
sensible is going to argue that he should have kept the whole life and never
bought term. But you are making some generalizations about the industry as a
whole here which I find disturbing. Also, there are about 1500 reputable
insurance companies that could have sold your brother term insurance for less
premium than PFS. That would, if I use basic logic, leave more money to invest
in the Van Kampen Fund. So, while he has increased his investment position, he
has not maximized his position. Geez, if you are going to buy term and invest
the difference, why not by the cheapest term out there to maximize that
difference?????
An interesting point must be raised regarding this and most other situations.
Globe Life is selling millions of policies every year to people for death
benefits of $10,000 and under. Who is globe life, you ask? Why they are a
company that sells small, highly priced, whole life policies to senior
citizens. Guaranteed issue no medical underwriting.
The point is not that they are selling a ton of these policies, but that people
are BUYING these policies. Imagine if they have bought a $10k whole life
blended with their term back when? They could spend their golden years with
some security (i.e., a paid up policy with increasing death benefit and no more
premiums due) for final expenses without shelling out $7 per $1000 per month at
age 75 or whatever. The very fact that Globe is selling so many tells me that,
contrary to your argument here, and contrary to what PFS says, people do feel
the need for life coverage at older ages. And, while term may be available to
age 90 or whatever, the premiums are ridiculous when compared even to Globe's
premiums.
Richard Clemons
>
Argumentative, is that the pot calling the kettle black, all I see in
this newsgroup are non-Primerica agents bashing Primerica. You also
seem to be good at making negative statements, but do not back what
you say with figures or sources. And when was the last time you saw
Primerica's name mentioned in a a class action suit. As for
high-pressure sells, I had a whole life agent have his boss call me to
explain why I should take out the policy, because the agent worked so
hard on it. They called me nightly for nearly 3 weeks. Finally,
please if you can, explain to me why cash value is better than BTID
for the majority of people. Every finacial show and publication I
have read or seen has said the opposite.
Richard Clemons
You say you didn't see any trashing of PFS investments and then you
trash them. I have not sold any investments with an 8.5% load. We
are the leading marketer of Van Kampen funds as well.
>>and has $150,000 of
>>25-year term coverage
>If that is what he needs, and since he has a home, wife and no children (I
>assume since you didn't mention it) then it seems he is all set. No one
>sensible is going to argue that he should have kept the whole life and never
>bought term. But you are making some generalizations about the industry as a
>whole here which I find disturbing.
This is laughable. All I see in here are generalizations about the
people who work for Primerica. We are all full-time
mechanics/part-time life agents and are totally incapable of doing
anything right for the client, according to what is written in here.
>Also, there are about 1500 reputable
>insurance companies that could have sold your brother term insurance for less
>premium than PFS.
Are you saying Primerica is not reputable? And how many of those 1500
companies are knocking on my brother-in-laws door......none.
Richard Clemons
You assume I did not do an analysis of the client which is incorrect.
Secondly, I stand by my statement that most people do not have a need
for cash value policies. This is not a one glove fits all situation,
I did not say all people. Everything I have read or seen from
financial experts says that people would be better off with term and
investing in seperate accounts. I deal with mainly middle to lower
class clients who have no insurance or investments and I am trying to
make a difference in their futures. Also, the $199 does indeed
cover all costs for a life/health license. It is a new program that
was started 2 years ago. When I started, I paid just over $500 with
books,pre-licensing class, and state and misc. fees.
>Cal Lester CLU
GoWildcats
>charge more that 5.75%.
The rest of the post was great...but here, a correction: Fidelity and AIM.
Both have contractual plans. AIM, in fact, was founded with their AIM Summit
contractual plan. Fidelity just introduced NEW share classes for their Destiny
I & II contractual plans in 1999.
How does 50% of first year investments sound for a sales charge? Over the life
of a plan, it's comparble to a typical A share, except that despite the massive
front end load, the funds have done extremely well.
peefis
Forrest Jackson wrote:
> The $199 fee is not for recruiting. The fee covers your life/health
> insurance exam costs(pre-licensing class,state fees,etc.). You get a
> life/health license which you can use with PRIMERICA or you can
> transfer to another company. Where is the illegality in this?
The illegality is here: in this judgement against Jewelway it is ruled
that even if a product or service is rendered in return for a fee
charged when joining an MLM, it is illegal.
"“Chain or pyramid marketing program” is a sales device whereby a
person, under a
condition that he or she make a payment, directly or indirectly, even if
a good or service is received in return for the payment, is granted a
license or right to recruit for consideration one or more additional
persons who are also granted a license or right upon condition of making
a payment, directly or indirectly, even if a good or service is received
in return for the payment, and may further perpetuate the chain or
pyramid of persons who are granted a license or right upon such
condition."
http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/9711/consent.ord.htm
I'm not saying what Primerica does is illegal. But if a recruiter gives
the impression that it is required that a prospect pre-pay a license
fee, then that transaction is definately in a grey area and may be
illegal. And speaking of crusades, if Primerica is so concerned about
interest rates on cash-value policies, why doesn't it pay interest on
the $199?
>
> If you were all honest in here, you would admit that your dislike for
> PRIMERICA has nothing to do with the MLM structure, their agents lack
> of experience, or the good of the consumer, but it has to do with
> their agents taking money out of your pockets.
Being completely honest, it is all of the above, all of which leads to
many people losing money one way or another.
Most people do not
> have a need for the cash value policies you pawn on them.
I pawn on them? Lol. You presume to assume I am still in insurance.
Most people
> need to buy as much insurance coverage as they can afford and term
> fits that requirement.
As much as they can afford? Lol. I see where your coming from.
"Mr PFA, how much insurance do I need?"
"Well sir, how much money do you have to spend on insurance?"
"I can spend up to $300 a month."
"Then sir, you need $300 a month worth of insurance."
Lol.
What the client also needs to be told is that PFS term is much more
expensive than many other company's term. If you really want to do the
right thing, become a fee-based planner, and help your clients find the
best rate for a product, rather than selling them high-priced term based
on a flawed comparison of term to cash value. A.L. Williams was
prohibited from doing that presentation, but it seems to be forgotten
and has now re-incarnated.
I will not lie to you and say that all PFS
> agents are perfect and aleways do what is right for the client, but
> you have your bad seeds in all walks of life, including non-PFS
> agents.
>
I will have to agree with this.
> >In any event, MLM is the same concept as a pyramid scheme, except it
> >disguises it activity by involving products. What the product
> >requirement laws have shown is that it wasn't only the fact that there
> >was no product that led to people being ripped off: it is the
> >compensation structure itself which is severely flawed. Whether or not
> >there is a product, the same flaws that exist in an illegal pyramid
> >exist in a legal MLM, and (Canadian) people would do well to read
> >section 55 and 55.1 of the Competition Act--use your seach engine on
> >your browser and look up Competition Bureau--and to learn to recognize
> >an MLM when they see one. Then, stay away! Just say NO! Hang up the
> >phone! Whatever!
>
> >>
> >> It is not a pyramid. A pyramid is illegal, it is a multi-level
> >> marketing company.
I said it is the same concept, and in my opinion, it is. I spent about
$5,000 in a year on stuff that was SOLD to me by my upline: Voicetel,
events, books, materials. And I missed a lot of the events. But if
everyone in my office spent a similar amount, that is about $150,000
spent on training in one office. That is a big chunk of money paid by
unsuspecting recruits who think that they are "investing in their
business" when in reality they are investing in their RVPs BMW. All the
money goes upward.
peefis
Cal_Lester wrote:
>However, as an Insurance Instructor, IF the above
> statement is correct, that the &199 fee covers ALL of the costs
> of pre-license schooling, preparation & exam costs & State fees,
> then it is in reality a bargain.
(Canada) It would be a bargain, if it was true. For those in PFS who do
not have the ability to comprehend the LUAC text, they must pay for
additional classes. The PFS contractor I worked for does not train in
that way, he trains in sales and recruiting methods. Learning the texts
and getting licensed is the recruit's responsibility, both academically
and financially.
>I must however take umbrage at your statement above that "most people do NOT have a >need for the cash value policies you pawn on them". Without getting into the merits of >the term vs CV contracts themselves, the mere fact that you could use a phraze like >"most people" tends to show that you are using a "one glove fits all" approach.
Umm, not to mention that CV contracts are "pawned off" on people. Isn't
that kind of language a breach of the industry code of ethics? Believe
it or not, I was told to learn the LUAC, then forget it as soon as
possible. But I must say, after reading the LUAC, I found the industry
standards of behaviour to be much more acceptable than the standards I
witnessed in the office I worked in.
PFAs really need to get a CLU.
peefis
Richard Clemons wrote:
> Argumentative, is that the pot calling the kettle black, all I see in
> this newsgroup are non-Primerica agents bashing Primerica.
Actually, some of us are ex-pfas who finally got around to our diligence
and then left the company. Well, I am.
You also
> seem to be good at making negative statements, but do not back what
> you say with figures or sources. And when was the last time you saw
> Primerica's name mentioned in a a class action suit.
Because Primerica products are sold by "independent contractors," it is
the independent contractor who gets sued, not Primerica. Anyway, the
products are the products. They are sometimes misrepresented by PFAs.
But the fraud that PFAs commit most blatently ids the "business
opportunity" fraud including income claim exaggerations.
But here is one family that is taking on PFS.
http://www.doas.state.ga.us/Courts/Supreme/ca990922.htm#Travelers
Probably they are misguided though. They should be suing the agent, not
the company. The company has done its diligence in the contract by
inserting an "honesty" clause. But it explains why you don't see
lawsuits against PFS. They are brought upon the independent contractors
who are registered as business entities separate from PFS or operate as
self-employed people under their own names.
peefis
Richard Clemons wrote:
>
> You assume I did not do an analysis of the client which is incorrect.
> Secondly, I stand by my statement that most people do not have a need
> for cash value policies.
If A.L. Williams dad had a term policy that expired at age 65, and he
died at age 66 uninsured because he could not afford to renew at that
age, would A.L. Williams be crusading for permanent insurance?
This is not a one glove fits all situation,
> I did not say all people. Everything I have read or seen from
> financial experts says that people would be better off with term and
> investing in seperate accounts.
Do you read anything other than what you are fed by your upline? Term
might be better for a lot of people, but not necessarily Primerica's
very expensive term. Besides, there's a lot of extra baggage that comes
with your policy: recruiting attempts, attempts to disillussion people
about their job and future, scare tactics etc.
> I deal with mainly middle to lower
> class clients who have no insurance or investments and I am trying to
> make a difference in their futures.
Lower class? Do you mean lower income? PFS's "crusade" is to help the
middle income earner. Most middle income people will not do business
because they are not in a position to. But with 151,000 reps, even if
they bust their buts for a handful of sales each a year, PFS will make
money. The agent won't. But PFS will do very well. If you really want to
help the "lower class" as you call them, volunteer at a foodbank.
>Also, the $199 does indeed
> cover all costs for a life/health license. It is a new program that
> was started 2 years ago. When I started, I paid just over $500 with
> books,pre-licensing class, and state and misc. fees.
Okay. This I don't understand. The $199 covers all costs for a
life/health license. I paid $500 for books, pre-licensing class, and
state and misc. fees. All costs, $199. I paid $500. Sounds like you were
overcharged about $300.
Richard Clemons
>Forrest:=20
>Forrest Jackson wrote:
>> The $199 fee is not for recruiting. The fee covers your life/health
>> insurance exam costs(pre-licensing class,state fees,etc.). You get a
>> life/health license which you can use with PRIMERICA or you can
>> transfer to another company. Where is the illegality in this?
>The illegality is here: in this judgement against Jewelway it is ruled
>that even if a product or service is rendered in return for a fee
>charged when joining an MLM, it is illegal.=20
>"=93Chain or pyramid marketing program=94 is a sales device whereby a
>person, under a
>condition that he or she make a payment, directly or indirectly, even if
>a good or service is received in return for the payment, is granted a
>license or right to recruit for consideration one or more additional
>persons who are also granted a license or right upon condition of making
>a payment, directly or indirectly, even if a good or service is received
>in return for the payment, and may further perpetuate the chain or
>pyramid of persons who are granted a license or right upon such
>condition."
>http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/9711/consent.ord.htm
>I'm not saying what Primerica does is illegal. But if a recruiter gives
>the impression that it is required that a prospect pre-pay a license
>fee, then that transaction is definately in a grey area and may be
>illegal. And speaking of crusades, if Primerica is so concerned about
>interest rates on cash-value policies, why doesn't it pay interest on
>the $199? =20
>>=20
>> If you were all honest in here, you would admit that your dislike for
>> PRIMERICA has nothing to do with the MLM structure, their agents lack
>> of experience, or the good of the consumer, but it has to do with
>> their agents taking money out of your pockets.
>Being completely honest, it is all of the above, all of which leads to
>many people losing money one way or another.=20
> Most people do not
>> have a need for the cash value policies you pawn on them.
>I pawn on them? Lol. You presume to assume I am still in insurance.=20
> Most people
>> need to buy as much insurance coverage as they can afford and term
>> fits that requirement.=20
>As much as they can afford? Lol. I see where your coming from.=20
>"Mr PFA, how much insurance do I need?"=20
>"Well sir, how much money do you have to spend on insurance?"=20
>"I can spend up to $300 a month."=20
>"Then sir, you need $300 a month worth of insurance."=20
>Lol.=20
>What the client also needs to be told is that PFS term is much more
>expensive than many other company's term. If you really want to do the
>right thing, become a fee-based planner, and help your clients find the
>best rate for a product, rather than selling them high-priced term based
>on a flawed comparison of term to cash value. A.L. Williams was
>prohibited from doing that presentation, but it seems to be forgotten
>and has now re-incarnated.=20
> I will not lie to you and say that all PFS
>> agents are perfect and aleways do what is right for the client, but
>> you have your bad seeds in all walks of life, including non-PFS
>> agents.
>>=20
>I will have to agree with this.=20
>> >In any event, MLM is the same concept as a pyramid scheme, except it
>> >disguises it activity by involving products. What the product
>> >requirement laws have shown is that it wasn't only the fact that there
>> >was no product that led to people being ripped off: it is the
>> >compensation structure itself which is severely flawed. Whether or not
>> >there is a product, the same flaws that exist in an illegal pyramid
>> >exist in a legal MLM, and (Canadian) people would do well to read
>> >section 55 and 55.1 of the Competition Act--use your seach engine on
>> >your browser and look up Competition Bureau--and to learn to recognize
>> >an MLM when they see one. Then, stay away! Just say NO! Hang up the
>> >phone! Whatever!
>>=20
>> >>
>> >> It is not a pyramid. A pyramid is illegal, it is a multi-level
>> >> marketing company.
>I said it is the same concept, and in my opinion, it is. I spent about
>$5,000 in a year on stuff that was SOLD to me by my upline: Voicetel,
>events, books, materials. And I missed a lot of the events. But if
>everyone in my office spent a similar amount, that is about $150,000
>spent on training in one office. That is a big chunk of money paid by
>unsuspecting recruits who think that they are "investing in their
>business" when in reality they are investing in their RVPs BMW. All the
>money goes upward.
It sounds as if you fell in with a bad crowd. I can truthfully tell
you my experience has been just the opposite. I have paid for my
licenses, life w/variable annuities, Series 6 & 63, and mortgage. I
have not purchased voicetel, callatlanta, or any materials, my upline
has covered all of these costs. Also, as to my knowledge the RVP's
make no money off of these purchases.
As for the insurance you need, we are required in my office to do an
FNA on all of our clients to determine that need. I have been on
several training appointments with different agents and have yet to
see the strong-armed tactics you refer to.
I believe in one of your posts you mention Canada. If you are from
Canada that may be the flaw. It is my understanding that you must be
full-time in Canada and therefore that could lead to added pressure on
the agent to make the sale. I believe this to be a flaw with
Primerica in Canada.
As for our insurance costs, I have seen several people with term from
other companies and more often than not we have been less expensive
when all things are considered. Example, I replaced a 10-year term
with our 25-year term. In the first ten years we were about $10 a
month more, but in the next ten years we were $35 a month less. In
addition if our only concern was price, then we would all only shop at
discount retailers.
CoverMe
Richard gave us this PFS rhetoric:
: Argumentative, is that the pot calling the kettle black,
In this context, I am indeed "black as the ace of spades." I never
claimed that I was not argumentative . . . I most certainly am. Next
subject?
: all I see in
: this newsgroup are non-Primerica agents bashing Primerica.
What you see is mostly a group of people that know this business and
know their client base rather well (with, I admit, a few nuts thrown in for
color). While PFS agents are quite good at fooling the uninformed public,
those little indoctrination seminars they sit through don't equip them to
handle people that actually understand insurance. (incidentally, you see a
lot of former PFS agents and clients, as well as several prospects, with
bashing of their own.)
: You also
: seem to be good at making negative statements, but do not back what
: you say with figures or sources.
Yawn. Ok, I'll tell you like I've told those PFSers before you. I
compliment and show appreciation for companies that do their jobs well,
whether they are my competitors or not. I have no trouble kicking the
starch of companies like ALW/PFS that give us all a bad name. If and when
PFS completely cleans up its act, admits its past misdeeds and then shows
the proper contrition for that behavior, I will stand and cheer on your
behalf. As long as PFS continues to use the same propaganda, poor
training, and questionable ethics, I will continue to show my disdain. As
for sources and figues, they have abounded in this newsgroup. You might
try a Deja search. Heck, you don't even need to go that far . . . peefis
has posted several URLs in the past few days.
: And when was the last time you saw
: Primerica's name mentioned in a a class action suit.
Weak, very weak. This is closely akin to saying, "I'm a nice guy.
Look, I even quit beating my wife." Sorry, Richard, but bad behavior has
to be in the past more than, say, twenty minutes before it fades from
memory. . . unless you're a Clinton.
: As for
: high-pressure sells, I had a whole life agent have his boss call me to
: explain why I should take out the policy, because the agent worked so
: hard on it. They called me nightly for nearly 3 weeks.
They should both be severely beaten with sticks. Using bad behavior to
justify one's own will get you nowhere with this newsgroup, though. High
pressure sales goes on throughout this industry, and it makes me ill no
matter what the company. With PFS, though, it is specifically trained and
ingrained as a company-wide approach. Not so with most other companies.
Show me one, I'll happily give them a verbal smack, as well. There is no
need for, and no place for, high pressure sales tactics in this industry.
Period. This applies not only to PFS but all other companies, too.
: Finally,
: please if you can, explain to me why cash value is better than BTID
: for the majority of people.
You may note that in none of my posts have I offerred that CV is
inherently better than the BTID approach. I purposely left that out ofthe
argument altogether. It's not BTID that gives me a problem, it's the
methodology PFS uses. If PFS pushed CV products instead, I would not alter
my arguments against them.
: Every finacial show and publication I
: have read or seen has said the opposite.
As investments, CV life policies are not good. They're not supposed to
be. (Several states prohibit the sale of life insurance as an
'investment.') Financial shows and publications are geared toward
INVESTMENTS. CV life policies are not designed to be investments. So,
comparing the cash value accumulation in a whole life policy against, say,
long term mutual fund returns of 10% makes for an easy case for BTID. Two
problems exist with this approach, however.
One, many people lack the self discipline to maintain an investment
strategy over a long period. Now, I freely admit that I cannot cite the
specific source (so you may, of course, dismiss this if you like), but I
read an article in a financial rag (WSJ, I think) about a Consumer Reports
survey. It indicated that ONE YEAR after undertaking a specific BTID plan,
with a professional sales agent or planner, that less than 20% were still
making regular investment deposits. (The number was somewhere in the high
teens.) This was not PFS, but across the board, so this is not an attack
on PFS.
The other problem with the PFS approach to CV vs. BTID is the 'cash value
life insurance is evil' syndrome. I am willing to consider any reputable
product that will help my client, and that includes term. PFS seems
unwilling to consider any alternatives outside their term product mix. The
fact is that sometimes VUL or UL is appropriate, sometimes it's ART or
10YLT, sometimes it's an annuity and sometimes life insurance just isn't an
appropriate vehicle at all. PFS simply pushes term, regardless of client
needs. The only question for them is the face value.
End of rant. (For now.)
SCat999999
Hell would freeze over first....if they did they would see that term isn' t the
answer to EVERY question.
Steve,LUTCF
DF0328
interesting.
Dave
Buy Term and 'Invest the Rest'? Most Disregard This Advice, Poll Finds
MILWAUKEE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 16, 1999--
Less than one-fourth of those who purchase term life insurance
actually invest any of their premium savings
Permanent life insurance gets a bad rap in these days of the
booming economy. Critics of permanent life insurance -- policies that
build cash value and pay a death benefit whenever you die -- say it's
cheaper to buy term insurance -- policies that have lower premiums
initially, have no cash value and pay a death benefit if you die
within the time frame specified in the contract.
These critics and many financial experts have been advising
insurance shoppers to take the difference in premium between a
permanent and term life insurance policy and invest or save it
elsewhere.
Truth is, less than a fourth of those individuals who purchase
term life insurance actually invest any of the difference in premium,
according to a new Harris Interactive (formerly Louis Harris
& Associates) poll released today.
The poll, commissioned by Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance
Company, surveyed more than 2,000 adults, almost 600 of whom own term
life insurance policies. The survey was conducted in October via the
Internet by Harris Poll Online.
"Of those who have purchased term life insurance, we posed the
question directly: 'Did you actually invest the premium savings?'"
said Dave Simbro of Northwestern Mutual.
According to the poll results, only 24 percent of term
policyholders actually invest any of their premium savings.
Furthermore, only 10 percent of those people who purchase term life
insurance follow through and invest all of their premium savings.
"In other words, more than 75 percent of individuals who own term
life insurance aren't acting on the advice to 'buy term and invest the
rest,'" Simbro said.
Northwestern Mutual commissioned the Harris poll to study trends
in insurance buying among consumers including the reasons why people
buy permanent life (or whole life).
"We also learned that we as an industry need to do a better job
educating consumers about the benefits of permanent life insurance --
particularly how useful the cash value is," Simbro said.
According to the poll, the "ability to draw upon policy cash
value" was the least important of five features for those who selected
permanent life insurance. The "protection received" was most
important, followed by "annual premium payment," "dividend earnings"
and "tax deferred growth."
Simbro said the poll results indicate that, even with a booming
economy, permanent life insurance is worth a serious look. Term
insurance may be a great solution to some people's insurance needs,
Simbro said. But it isn't always right.
"In spite of the popular advice to 'buy term and invest the
rest,' I believe permanent life is the right choice more often than
people realize," he said. "Because there's more to permanent life
insurance than just the death benefit."
No other financial product can do what permanent life insurance
does: provide money immediately in the event of an insured's death and
at the same time be a source of cash while the insured lives, Simbro
said.
There are two parts to the policy: the death benefit, which
usually consists of a tax-free payment to the beneficiaries; and the
cash value, which grows tax-deferred and can be accessed by the
policyowner whenever the cash is needed.
"This means you'll know that the people you care about will be
taken care of financially if you die unexpectedly," Simbro said.
"Plus, there is the financial resource that you can access for a
variety of purposes -- for example, to supplement your retirement
income, fund an education or start a new business."
Simbro said the results of the Harris poll also reinforce the
long list of statistics that indicate we're a nation of poor savers.
The statistics Simbro referred to include:
*T
DF0328
I started my career with a company called Waddell & Reed and they had used a
similar arrangement in the 80's and early 90's. It was 50% commission 1st year
with decreasing cost to the client on a contractual basis. Over time, it was
actually cheaper than the A-share.
I was told that they had discontinued the plan due to complaints about the
intial cost, even though it worked out cheaper than A-share for the client.
Thanks for bringing me up to date.
Dave
Robert C. Thomas
<01bf4674$3062df80$0a01a8c0@umktgghc>...
>
The
> primary components of TMM include recruitment of others to sell on your
> behalf, and motivating those people to recruit others, as well. You
cannot
> ever make any real money with TMM until you have recruited a bunch of
> downline to work for you.
Is this inherently wrong? Granted, the purpose is to build a large
organization, centered around the sale of insurance and mutual funds. Is
the process flawed, or merely the execution????
>
> Many MLM companies have inferior
> products.
It is true that the Primerica term is more expensive than some. The mutual
funds they now sell are neither better nor worse than those sold by other
large broker-dealers.
>
> With such a sales-focused approach, not much time is left for anything
> else, such as training.
This would seem to be the case.
> Commission-only sales is a tough gig.
You got that right!!!!
> Beginners
> have no safety net, so they usually have to hold another job, working the
> MLM only part-time. This lends itself to younger, less experienced
workers
> since older ones often have families to feed. In the pressure to make a
> sale, ethics may be compromised either due to lack of training or
financial
> pressures.
>
This pressure to sell is present in all commissioned sales, I'd say. And
the very high one year turnover rate of the industry as a whole pretty much
dictates that if you are visited by any agent the chances are that he's
new.
I'm no supporter of PFS, but I do not share your thoughts on the inherent
liabilities of MLM. I have no problem with buying from an MLMer, part
time, or no, provided he has the product I want at a price that is
acceptable.
Lastly, on the subject of PFS, I believe that there is a great number of
people out there who really prefer NOT to think about their own mortality,
and somehow figure the "gummit" will take care of them in their old age.
They tend NOT to seek out financial advice. Those who have 401Ks tend to
put the majority of their funds in low risk, low yield investments. They
will look at the realities ONLY if someone seeks them out.....goes to their
houses, etc. MLMers do that, and generally in their circle of friends.
I'm not too sure this is really a bad thing.
PFS HAS sold a hell of a lot of term, and a lot of mutual funds as well.
Granted, their term is not the term I'd sell, or buy. But, if their
customers stay with their programs, I'd guess that most of them are better
off than if they had not been approached by PFS. Are they necessarily
better off than had they gone to a great many other agencies? IMHO, no,
but, would they have gone? All too often, the answer is no.
You cite the high cancellation rate, higher than industry standard.
Perhaps one of the reasons for this is that the PFS deal got them thinking
and they later switch to better products. Again, would this have happened
without PFS?? I dunno.......but it's a thought.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a PFS defender. There's a hell of a lot I
don't like about them, most of it centered around their arrogant stance
that they're the only people on the white horse. I disagree that BTID is
necessarily the best approach for most people, let alone all. I object to
the half truths they tell about permanent insurance. But that's a whole
'nother story.
cheers,
bob
SCat999999
>the independent contractor who gets sued, not Primerica.
This explains a lot. ALL of the big law suits that the PFS'rs love to cite
against Pru, Met, etc.are companies where the agents are considered EMPLOYEES!
This is a substantial difference.
Steve, LUTCF
Robert C. Thomas
<835jok$vr1$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>...
>
> If you were all honest in here, you would admit that your dislike for
> PRIMERICA has nothing to do with the MLM structure, their agents lack
> of experience, or the good of the consumer, but it has to do with
> their agents taking money out of your pockets.
There is some truth to that, but, by and large, most agents of traditional
companies are at least as ethical as your average Primerica agent ;>)
As I see it, the fact that most people do NOT invest the difference
dictates the inevitable result that at some point the client ends up with
NO insurance and NO savings. This is good? This is doing the right thing?
Most people do not
> have a need for the cash value policies you pawn on them.
You have decided this on the basis of what body of independent research??
Most people
> need to buy as much insurance coverage as they can afford and term
> fits that requirement.
I would agree that SOME people fit that category. That's why most
traditional agents sell so much term.
I will not lie to you and say that all PFS
> agents are perfect and aleways do what is right for the client, but
> you have your bad seeds in all walks of life, including non-PFS
> agents.
>
This is true. However, much of the PFS pitch attacking whole life is utter
crap. For instance;
They loan you your own money: The process is much more akin to an escrow
loan.
All whole life is a ripoff: I've never met a PFS agent who really
understood whole life, much less UL, VL, VUL....... A lot of them don't
really understand their own term.
etc.
cheers
bob
Robert C. Thomas
<838nie$d0m$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>...
>
> please if you can, explain to me why cash value is better than BTID
> for the majority of people. Every finacial show and publication I
> have read or seen has said the opposite.
>
1. With permanent (CV) insurance, there will be an estate in the event
that one's investments turned out to be poor ones.
2. The tax treatment of CV insurance is better than that of BTID, giving
tax free growth and access to the money in tax free/deferred loans at
either very low or no interest. Provided the CV was a variable, tied to,
essentially, the same mutual funds as the BTID program, this can result in
as good an after tax income, in some cases better.
3. What do "most" people want and need? You seem to think you know. I'm
not so sure. According to the stats I've seen "most" (approx. 3/4) people
buy term and blow the difference......ultimately have NO insurance and NO
savings. How is this better than even whole life????
and so on.......
Alternatively, PROVIDED the individual actually DOES invest, he is in
pretty good shape. No one here is trying to tell you that BTID is not a
good program....only that it isn't the ONLY program.
cheers
bob
merl
and B shares?
"DF0328" <df0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991217125235...@ng-cv1.aol.com...
Richard Clemons
> MILWAUKEE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 16, 1999--
> Less than one-fourth of those who purchase term life insurance
> actually invest any of their premium savings
> Permanent life insurance gets a bad rap in these days of the
>booming economy. Critics of permanent life insurance -- policies that
>build cash value and pay a death benefit whenever you die -- say it's
>cheaper to buy term insurance -- policies that have lower premiums
>initially, have no cash value and pay a death benefit if you die
>within the time frame specified in the contract.
> These critics and many financial experts have been advising
>insurance shoppers to take the difference in premium between a
>permanent and term life insurance policy and invest or save it
>elsewhere.
> Truth is, less than a fourth of those individuals who purchase
>term life insurance actually invest any of the difference in premium,
>according to a new Harris Interactive (formerly Louis Harris
The truth is that the advise remains correct in most situations. I
will agree that anybody who replaces a cash-value policy with term
coverage and does not accompany that policy with investments has done
that client a dis-service.
You can get more protection with term.
>followed by "annual premium payment,"
Term is less expensive.
>"dividend earnings"
>and "tax deferred growth."
Accompanied with a Traditional IRA or ROTH IRA term gives you the same
with better investment options.
> Simbro said the poll results indicate that, even with a booming
>economy, permanent life insurance is worth a serious look. Term
>insurance may be a great solution to some people's insurance needs,
>Simbro said. But it isn't always right.
Stop the presses!!! Imagine somebody in the insurance industry
saying this.
> "In spite of the popular advice to 'buy term and invest the
>rest,' I believe permanent life is the right choice more often than
>people realize," he said. "Because there's more to permanent life
>insurance than just the death benefit."
> No other financial product can do what permanent life insurance
>does: provide money immediately in the event of an insured's death and
>at the same time be a source of cash while the insured lives, Simbro
>said.
> There are two parts to the policy: the death benefit, which
>usually consists of a tax-free payment to the beneficiaries; and the
>cash value, which grows tax-deferred and can be accessed by the
>policyowner whenever the cash is needed.
Sounds like the last option here would provide less of that tax free
payment to those beneficiaries.
Robert C. Thomas
I tend to agree that Whole Life, except in limited applications, isn't all
that great. Variable, on the other hand..........
cheers
bob
DF0328 <df0...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19991217125555...@ng-cv1.aol.com>...
posandrew
> It sounds as if you fell in with a bad crowd. I can truthfully tell
> you my experience has been just the opposite. I have paid for my
> licenses, life w/variable annuities, Series 6 & 63, and mortgage. I
> have not purchased voicetel, callatlanta, or any materials, my upline
> has covered all of these costs. Also, as to my knowledge the RVP's
> make no money off of these purchases.
LOL!! You mean to tell everyone that your upline pays for all your
expenses? Since when do MLMs' uplines pay for your expenses?
Primerica uses the same voicemail system as Amway and the Amway upline
earns money from the sale of the their Amvox system. Does your upline
pay for your motivational events also?
> As for the insurance you need, we are required in my office to do an
> FNA on all of our clients to determine that need. I have been on
> several training appointments with different agents and have yet to
> see the strong-armed tactics you refer to.
It sounds as if you're a relatively new rep. and you don't know the
full extent of their practices. Just look at the FNA you mentioned.
Your upline probably made it seem like this FNA is a Primerica
proprietary system. The FNA is really a sales system that's sold to
many insurance companies as a sales track for new agents. New agents,
like you, need a system so that they can guided toward the close of the
sale without being sidetracked. When I was with New York Life, the
sales trainer asked me, "Ya know why you need to learn this FNA?". I
said, "No." He replied, "Cuz you new guys don't know what to say in
front of these prospects." The FNA is for inexperienced reps.
> I believe in one of your posts you mention Canada. If you are from
> Canada that may be the flaw. It is my understanding that you must be
> full-time in Canada and therefore that could lead to added pressure on
> the agent to make the sale. I believe this to be a flaw with
> Primerica in Canada.
So that means that there is less pressure to get a sale if one is part-
time? Actually, part-timers are even worse. They don't have the
commitment to their career necessary to provide value for their
prospects. Because of the part-time status of many, prospects will
sense you're an inexperienced rep. with a pre-packaged sales spiel;
then, they will put up their resistance. Once that happens, you're on
the "high-pressure" track.
But of course, you said in another post you are going after the low-
income market. This low-income group may not have had the experience
dealing with financial people, so I guess you could conceivably get
away with having the FNA make you look like Warren Buffett.
> As for our insurance costs, I have seen several people with term from
> other companies and more often than not we have been less expensive
> when all things are considered. Example, I replaced a 10-year term
> with our 25-year term. In the first ten years we were about $10 a
> month more, but in the next ten years we were $35 a month less. In
> addition if our only concern was price, then we would all only shop at
> discount retailers.
Then, you ream 'em over by having them "invest-the-rest" in a mutual
fund with an 8.5% load.
posandrew
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Robert C. Thomas
<83i48r$q6b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>
> Then, you ream 'em over by having them "invest-the-rest" in a mutual
> fund with an 8.5% load.
>
sells the Common (non)Sense Trust mutual funds with it's 8.5% front load.
At least this is what several of their agents on the ng have said.
cheers
bob
Cal_Lester
>
> I tend to agree that Whole Life, except in limited
applications, isn't all
> that great. Variable, on the other hand..........
>
> cheers
>
> bob
I will grant that "generic" Whole Life" is not
the most attractive
or most equitable contract that we have to offer
today. However
your reference to "variable" might be misleading
to some extent.
True there is great potential for Cash Value
Account "gain" in the
Variable contract, however one must also point
out the potential
for "loss". In view of the fact that the C.V.A.
is "invested" at the
direction of the Insured in most cases, then the
Insured takes on
the responsibility of maintaining that C.V.A. at
a proper level.
However, I would suggest to that individual who
is not content
with the "guarantees" of W.L or the nominal
current interest
earnings of "most" U/L policies today, take a
serious look at
"Equity Indexed U/L". E/I/U/L in most cases
provides a minimum
guaranteed interest equivalent to "street
earnings", and provides
for the addition of "excess earnings" based upon
a market index.
Cal Lester CLU
Robert C. Thomas
>
> I have seen many
How many? You list one.
situations in which non-PFS agents have
> pre-determined a need for whole life insurance. Example, my
> brother-in-law was in a $50,000 whole life policy. At the time he was
> single with no children and rented an apartment. The policy was sold
> to him as an investment.
Suffice it to say that WL should NOT be sold as an investment. What the
client HEARD is not always what the agent SAID, however. One point that
often intrigues me. Many of the PFS defenders take the position that BTID
is always best, and defend their contention with mutual fund performance
projections. Yet, it is a fact that many people are not comfortable with
the risk of the market. In fact, very many who actually go BTID still
invest in, for instance, bond funds. How much better is a BTID program
based upon low yield funds than a guaranteed WL policy?? We never hear
about this from the PFS crowd, only the 12% projections.
Wow, some investment, perhaps the agent was
> not licensed to broker any mutual funds, unlike a PFS agent.
Unlike maybe 20% of the PFS agents, you mean. Most do NOT have their
securities licenses and STILL tout the BTID route. And, having carried
their point, sell term, but no mutual funds because they can't. I wonder
how many people are never sold mutual funds by a follow up visit by a
security licensed PFS agent??????
Before
> you trash the PFS investments, he is now investing in Van Kampen's
> Emerging Growth fund(check the track record) and has $150,000 of
> 25-year term coverage.
Yes, you're quite correct. PFS now sells some pretty good funds, Van
Kampen among them.
By the way this was done after he got married,
> bought a house, and truly had a need for the life insurance.
And your point is.............that an unmarried individual with no house
has no need for insurance?? How about the idea of buying it now when it's
cheaper (you're younger), figuring that ultimately you WILL marry, etc.????
Brent D. Gardner
>will agree that anybody who replaces a cash-value policy with term
>coverage and does not accompany that policy with investments has done
>that client a dis-service.
This means that 75% if PFS policies were inapproriate from the word go. I do
not find that surprising.
>You can get more protection with term.
More? For how long? Company retention limits and reinsurance limits are more
likely to be tested with permanent than term. How about more today, but none
when you may need or want it? That is the only correct way to describe it.
>Accompanied with a Traditional IRA or ROTH IRA term gives you the same
>with better investment options.
Better than what? I've seen more comparisions than I care to remember and
traditional permanent life insurance (WL & UL) when funded correctly produces
similar returns to a great bond fund over a long period of time. With the
ability to cash flow income tax free, it usually has a slight but noticeable
edge. Variable life sub accounts, on the other hand, has two things that
differentiate it from retail mutual funds: No tax on distributions inside the
sub account so managers can disregard tax implications in daily buy/sell
decisions, and lower fund manager expense than retail clone mutual funds
because insurance companies can deliver on the promise of massive amounts of
money in short periods of time.
The biggest problem with BTID is that it's a plan for mediocrity at best,
failure at worst. The bigget disease in American is spending! Some pundits
will admit that there is a need, albeit small, for permanent insurance with the
wealthy. What they fail to see is that the reason the wealthy have more money
is that they save more -- in every area, INCLUDING cash value life insurance.
Maxing out IRAs and qualified plans is only the first step. Putting money in
taxable accounts, buying real estate or investing in a business, buying
annuities and cash value life insurance -- these are what many of the wealthy
have been doing their whole lives.
>Sounds like the last option here would provide less of that tax free
>payment to those beneficiaries.
This statement is disingenuous. The same applies to all investments.
In the old days, it was product pushing. Needs based selling came next and it
evolved until eventually extremists became zealots and did less to solve
problems and more to create them than ever in history. An excellent advisor
helps a client decide what they WANT -- and then solves the problem. There are
no perfect solutions for a population as varied as ours -- and that makes the
BTID "philosophy" an empty one at best. If a person WANTS to build an estate
to leave for their kids, grandkids, and so on, then there's a product to solve
that problem. If a person WANTS to die broke, then there is a product for that
too. Everybody inbetween is best served by a portfolio of products that match
their many, often conflicting, WANTS.
When a person WANTS term and an agent attempts to persuade them to buy
something else, then that agent is a failure to meet the needs of the client.
When a person WANTS permanent and an agent attempts to persuade them to buy
term, then that agent is a failure to meet the needs of the client.
A good agent sells a client what they WANT -- and if they see a descrepancy
between what they want and the objective they are trying to accomplish, then a
good agent will work to educate the client and eventually they will buy the
correct solution IF it's different from the one they think will work. If not,
then it's the obligation of the agent to fire the client so that they may spend
those valuable hours working with open minded, intelligent people who want to
make a difference in life. When I see or hear of agents burning up good waking
hours trying to persuade somebody to buy something they don't want, I have a
strong desire to pull out a firehose and wash them away. To many people go
unserved by this senseless idiocy.
Brent D. Gardner
Registered Principal of and all securities offered through
United Planners' Financial Services of America
Member NASD, SIPC & The Pacific Exchange
Money is flat and meant to be piled high - Scottish Proverb
Terry Burnett
news:3854D3D0...@yahoo.com...
> > It does have a multi-level marketing structure, if that's what you mean.
> > There is nothing wrong with that in itself, but MLM products tend to be
> > overpriced when compared to the competition.
> If MLM products tend to be overpriced, then isn't there at least one
> thing wrong with MLM itself--that the products are overpriced? Is it
> possible there are more things wrong with it?
Assuming you were replying to me, that's very possible. But, the *concept*
of multi-level (insurance) marketing is not necessarily a bad thing. Truth
is, many insurance companies and agencies have operated (or are operating)
under a multi-level commission arrangement, with "producers" or "associates"
at the bottom:
* Surety Life (a subsidiary of Allstate)
* Investors Life of Nebraska (a subsidiary of Midland National Life)
* ITT Life
* World Marketing Alliance (WMA)
* As well as . . . multitudes of other agencies who pays overrides on
recruited agent's commissions. :)
Of course, something has to give when too many people have their fingers in
the pie. The more levels there are to support, the higher the price of the
products must be. Therefore, MLM insurance products are usually less
competitive than those of non-MLM companies.
To be fair, insurance-related MLM's generally pay their guys on the bottom
much better than Amway (choke) does -- which means less emphasis on
recruiting and more emphasis on SELLING. For that reason, I don't regard
PFS as a "pyramid" organization. Nevertheless, I don't approve of
Primerica's misleading marketing methods, and I would never recommend them
to anyone.
And, with the possible exception of WMA, none of the other companies I
mentioned above seems to be carrying on a hyped-up replacement crusade
against the rest of the industry. I think it's noteworthy, however, that
WMA is headquartered in Duluth, GA -- the same city where A. L. Williams
once reigned . . . ?!
Terry
Brent D. Gardner
>and B shares?
There really is no reason to compare costs when comparing benefits is more
useful.
The benefits of ownership, in the case of contractual plans, is why these plans
fill a niche that has little to do with socioeconomics or demograhics. It's
all about changing habits. Penalties to short term thinking are written into
the tax law (i.e., 10-25% penalties on premature withdrawals from qualified
plans, IRAs, annuities and MECs). The same psychological benefit is delivered
with a contracual plan -- because one is virtually guaranteed to lose money in
the first year, and they are not likely to break even until the third year, but
if they keep on making purchases as they agreed to, then they end up with one
of the better performing funds around.
Fidlity Destiny I & II are consistently in the top quartile, and often in the
top 25, of the funds in the peer group that have been around. The distinct
advantage to them over other funds is the method of purchase -- there is only
one. Dollar cost averaging is not optional, it's mandatory. The predictable
cash flow of these plans allows the fund manager to focus on picking good long
term holding instead of managing cash flow in and out on a daily basis.
I find it interesting that W&R cancelled their plans, while AIM was just
starting theirs, and Fidelity has shown renewed commitment with the new share
classes they added to their Destiny Plans in 1999.
Richard Clemons
>Forrest Jackson <abc...@atl.mindspring.com> wrote in article
><8338tv$ccj$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
>>
>> I have seen many
>How many? You list one.
How many would you like? An agent tried to sell me a whole life
policy by telling me I could fund my daughters education. This agent
also never got any information from me concerning my income, debts, if
I had children, etc. He just came to my house with illustrations on
$100,000 of coverage on me and my wife.
I dont agree with insuring your insurability, but then the agent
should have sold him more than $50,000 of coverage. He would
definetly need more coverage than $50,000.
Rick
Richard Clemons
>> As for our insurance costs, I have seen several people with term from
>> other companies and more often than not we have been less expensive
>> when all things are considered. Example, I replaced a 10-year term
>> with our 25-year term. In the first ten years we were about $10 a
>> month more, but in the next ten years we were $35 a month less. In
>> addition if our only concern was price, then we would all only shop at
>> discount retailers.
>Then, you ream 'em over by having them "invest-the-rest" in a mutual
>fund with an 8.5% load.
>posandrew
You speak with true ignorance. You have no idea who I am or what
products I sell to my clients. With this last statement you discredit
anything you say. You should think before you speak, for your
information the funds I put these people in were Van Kampen B shares.
Why don't you grab a prospectus and educate yourself.
Rick
Richard Clemons
>As an aside, I have no trouble paying a certain premium for good service.
>I'll shop at Best Buy instead of K-Mart. Good service has never been a
>stated intent of the MLM concept. Also, with regard to high-pressure
>sales, it just drives me crazy. I don't use them, and I don't like having
>them used on me. This is a strictly personal thing, of course, but I don't
>think I'd buy water from a pushy salesman if I was on fire. Just the way
>I'm wired, I guess.
Why do you assume all PFS agents are these high-pressure sales people?
Remember we are all part-timers(as claimedon this NG) and can't
possibly be very good at sales to begin with because we are all
mechanics and have no experience in high-pressure sales.
Rick
Robert C. Thomas
<02adc18541613...@msn.com>...
> your reference to "variable" might be misleading
> to some extent.
> True there is great potential for Cash Value
> Account "gain" in the
> Variable contract, however one must also point
> out the potential
> for "loss". In view of the fact that the C.V.A.
> is "invested" at the
> direction of the Insured in most cases, then the
> Insured takes on
> the responsibility of maintaining that C.V.A. at
> a proper level.
>
That's true enough. It is also true in BTID.....the money in the
investment is invested at the direction of the investor. There is also the
potential for loss. True enough, also, that under some conditions the
"investor" must maintain the CV at a level insuring that the policy doesn't
lapse. I didn't want to write a book...........
cheers
bob
peefis
Terry Burnett wrote:
>
> peefis <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3854D3D0...@yahoo.com...
> > > It does have a multi-level marketing structure, if that's what you mean.
> > > There is nothing wrong with that in itself, but MLM products tend to be
> > > overpriced when compared to the competition.
>
> > If MLM products tend to be overpriced, then isn't there at least one
> > thing wrong with MLM itself--that the products are overpriced? Is it
> > possible there are more things wrong with it?
>
> Assuming you were replying to me, that's very possible. But, the *concept*
> of multi-level (insurance) marketing is not necessarily a bad thing. Truth
> is, many insurance companies and agencies have operated (or are operating)
> under a multi-level commission arrangement, with "producers" or "associates"
> at the bottom:
>
Okay, I live on an island in a city with 150,000 people. In PFS, to
reach the RVP level, where the pay finally begins to match that of a
real professional, you need to have ten direct recruits as well as do
10,000 in premium 2 months in a row. Premium aside, look at what
happens: each of the tem nust recruit ten more to reach RVP, the
position that PFS agents sell as the goal and symbol of success in the
comapny. So, if ten recruit ten each, then you 100. They each recruit
ten, 1000.
10
100
1000
10000
100000
1000000
So somewhere between 5 and 6 levels, there is nobody left to recruit.
That means people getting in the business at that point have NO CHANCE
at success. They must leave the area completely and go somewhere else.
That is the flaw. At somewhere around 10 or 12 levels, you are looking
at a poplulation required to sustain the program and give everyone a
CHANCE ay success--a population that exceeds the population of the
planet. Is that not a major flaw in any MLM?
> * Surety Life (a subsidiary of Allstate)
> * Investors Life of Nebraska (a subsidiary of Midland National Life)
> * ITT Life
> * World Marketing Alliance (WMA)
> * As well as . . . multitudes of other agencies who pays overrides on
> recruited agent's commissions. :)
>
Just because corporations do it, doesnt mean it isnt flawed. As far as
the CEO is concerned, if you construct a hypothetical MLM with yourself
as CEO, you will see that the CEO never loses. MLM is excellent for CEOs
and maybe those at the 2nd and 3rd levels. Beyond that, the thing is a
sinking ship.
> Of course, something has to give when too many people have their fingers in
> the pie. The more levels there are to support, the higher the price of the
> products must be. Therefore, MLM insurance products are usually less
> competitive than those of non-MLM companies.
>
Yes. Very true. And Primerica agents , in reality, give no better
service than their competitors.
> To be fair, insurance-related MLM's generally pay their guys on the bottom
> much better than Amway (choke) does -- which means less emphasis on
> recruiting and more emphasis on SELLING.
This isn't necessarily so. PFS's market is the middle income family.
They do not purchase huge policies. As a PFA with no recruits, you earn
25% before expenses. Amway reps earn on average $500 a year. In my
office, the average income--full-time mind you, was about 8,000 to
12,000. DSo, yea, still better than Amway, but not enough to live on.
Most PFAs I met were relying heavily on their partner's income.
For that reason, I don't regard
> PFS as a "pyramid" organization. Nevertheless, I don't approve of
> Primerica's misleading marketing methods, and I would never recommend them
> to anyone.
>
No, it is not a pyramid according to definition and when PFS's rules are
followed. But wghen RVPs in the company require a payment in order to
join, then they have crossed the line.
> And, with the possible exception of WMA, none of the other companies I
> mentioned above seems to be carrying on a hyped-up replacement crusade
> against the rest of the industry. I think it's noteworthy, however, that
> WMA is headquartered in Duluth, GA -- the same city where A. L. Williams
> once reigned . . . ?!
>
> Terry
WMA was started by an ex-A.L. Williams rep. You know who/what A.L.
Williams was/is? It is now Primerica. S.Hubert Humphrey basically
learned his trade from A.L. Williams who sold the business to Sandy
Weill. Here's an interesting lawsuit in which A.L. Williams Co. is sued
for making false income claims, and S. Hubert Humphrey, founder of WMA,
is named as the agent. Because the defendants didn't read their
contract, the case was thrown out.
http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/cases/mlm/feddistrict/alkelly.htm
peefis
Richard Clemons wrote:
>
> It sounds as if you fell in with a bad crowd.
I can't disagree with you there. Except it say it wasn't the crowd that
was so bad. I think most of us where under a veil of deception.
> I have been on
> several training appointments with different agents and have yet to
> see the strong-armed tactics you refer to.
> I believe in one of your posts you mention Canada. If you are from
> Canada that may be the flaw. It is my understanding that you must be
> full-time in Canada and therefore that could lead to added pressure on
> the agent to make the sale. I believe this to be a flaw with
> Primerica in Canada.
Absolutely. Couldn't agree with you more. It is severely flawed. To put
a business concept that was conceived for part-timers in a full-time
market without adaptation is a serious flaw. But the advantage of it is
you learn more faster. What I learned in 14 months may take a part-timer
5 years to learn.
peefis
>Richard Clemons wrote:
> Also, as to my knowledge the RVP's> make no money off of these purchases.
Voicetel, seminars, training and recruiting materials etc. This is the
heart of the matter. If they did make commissions, the would you agree
that that is a serious conflict of interests? My interest in becoming a
"broker" as it was described to me, and the RVPs interest in being able
to sell stuff to me in the name of helping my brokerage grow (PFS is NOT
a brokerage, but is an MLM).
Here's why I think you may be mistaken about RVPs making money off of
the seminars and Voicetel: on a website which has since been removed,
Voicetel says,
"The best part of the VoiceTel service is the
commission that can be earned from the $29.95
monthly usage fee. In a full Business Center,
you could earn $3, 846 per month!"
The link is now dead, but was accurate when I copyed the quotation.
http://www.american-freeway100.com/voice-tel_service_overview.htm
So Voicetel is a company which pays a commission to managers, whatever
who sign up their business centers. Who in PFS is getting that
commission?
Part 1, paragraph 1 of the Basic Agreement states in part that "Other
agreements between you and the PFS companies will authorize you to
market specific products and services and will provide for commissions.
Some designations with the PFS sales force (e.g. Regional Vice President
and higher) are covered by additional agreements."
Is it possible that those additional agreements include the right to
sell seminars and Voicetel and other "products" to your own downline? Is
there an RVP on this board who wants to step forward and deny this?
To me its simple. Amway denied for years that its "diamond" distributors
made money from the lower distributors of off motivational and so-called
training material. But under the pressure of anti_Amway websites, it now
admits it is true, but claims that is separate from Amway.
Now, an RVP must register his business under a separate legal name, as a
separate legal entity. That means that seminars and Voicetel can be sold
to recruits under the name of that entity. Just like in Amway.
Based on what I spent in 14 months and the number of people who spent
similarly on these motivational products, I would guess my RVP grossed
about $210,000 from the sale of tools to his own downline. His income
claims were about $400,000 a year. So we are talking about netting half
of his income from indirect sales to his own recruits. Hmmm.
So, I think you might be prudent to request a copy of all agreements
offered at all levels in PFS to see just who is the customer. If these
materials are withheld from you even though you bought into an
opportunity to become an RVP, it might be because things are not as they
seem to be.
Terry Burnett
> So somewhere between 5 and 6 levels, there is nobody left to recruit.
> That means people getting in the business at that point have NO CHANCE
> at success. They must leave the area completely and go somewhere else.
I suppose that's true, if their primary emphasis is on recruiting. That is
the flaw.
> Just because corporations do it, doesnt mean it isnt flawed.
Agreed. I was an agent for some of those pseudo-MLM companies in years
past, and I wasn't favorably impressed.
> This isn't necessarily so. PFS's market is the middle income family.
> They do not purchase huge policies.
That is definitely a flaw -- but not necessarily because it is an MLM. From
what I've heard, WMA's target market seems to be more financially
sophisticated than Primerica's. I think they also sell cash value products,
but I'm not sure.
> As a PFA with no recruits, you earn
> 25% before expenses.
Are you serious?? A bottom-level agent with the other companies I mentioned
starts at around 50% to 55% commission. That's not a lot, but the
possibility of making $200 on one sale can definitely get a potential
recruit's attention. In contrast, it's virtually impossible to make any
serious money selling and delivering overpriced Amway products.
Organizations that depend totally on recruiting are a sham IMO.
By the way, that's what I like about selling life insurance -- it's never
out of stock, there are no seasonal discounts, and you don't have to mess
with sales taxes or shipping charges! :)
> No, it is not a pyramid according to definition and when PFS's rules are
> followed. But wghen RVPs in the company require a payment in order to
> join, then they have crossed the line.
Probably true. Amway seems to have crossed that line also, by pushing their
downlines to sell $300 sales kits to the people they recruit. That sort of
thing was prohibited in the 1970's, but I guess things have changed since
then . . .
> WMA was started by an ex-A.L. Williams rep.
> Here's an interesting lawsuit in which A.L. Williams Co. is sued
> for making false income claims, and S. Hubert Humphrey, founder of WMA,
> is named as the agent.
That's very interesting. I always suspected that there was some sort of
connection between ALW/Primerica and WMA. And, I heard that Hubert Humphrey
hired Barry Switzer to "coach" his masses. Sounds familiar, eh?
Do you know of any websites that provide *unbiased* info about WMA? I would
love to do more research on them . . .
TLB
P. S. -- I came very close to signing up with ALW back in 1991, before I
knew much about them. However, after reading their 45-page contract, I told
them to get lost. There's no way would I give up my right to hire an
attorney just to be an agent for their infamous organization . . .
Cal_Lester
I was not chastising, nor was I attempting to
compare the two.
However, since you have, I would point out that you
have
inadvertently left out one of the most important
characteristics
in the comparison, that being that while the policy
"is in force", that
any increase in the C/V/A would be Income Tax
Deferred, and
under certain "text book" circumstances could be
received
by the Insured Income Tax Free..........
Cal Lester CLU
CoverMe
: organization, centered around the sale of insurance and mutual funds. Is
: the process flawed, or merely the execution????
I'd say some of both. The process is flawed, but if you assume that it
is not, the execution is certainly poor, as well. If forced at gunpoint to
choose one over the other, I would say "execution."
: > With such a sales-focused approach, not much time is left for anything
: > else, such as training.
:
: This would seem to be the case.
Ah. You might want to check that first paragraph up there again, too.
Time spent out there seeking out new PFS minions will also take away from
training time.
: I'm no supporter of PFS, but I do not share your thoughts on the
inherent
: liabilities of MLM. I have no problem with buying from an MLMer, part
: time, or no, provided he has the product I want at a price that is
: acceptable.
I think on this we respectfully disagree. Based on the products that the
MLM companies often push (Amway, PFS, spam of ALL kinds), the typically
high-pressure sales tactics, lack of prefessionalism, and poor value for
the dollar, I confess that I have become naturally suspicious of the MLM
salesman. It's not that I would never, ever buy from an MLMer, it's just
that he'd have a higher hill to climb than someone that was from a more
traditional sales structure.
As an aside, I have no trouble paying a certain premium for good service.
I'll shop at Best Buy instead of K-Mart. Good service has never been a
stated intent of the MLM concept. Also, with regard to high-pressure
sales, it just drives me crazy. I don't use them, and I don't like having
them used on me. This is a strictly personal thing, of course, but I don't
think I'd buy water from a pushy salesman if I was on fire. Just the way
I'm wired, I guess.
: Lastly, on the subject of PFS, I believe that there is a great number of
: people out there who really prefer NOT to think about their own
mortality,
: and somehow figure the "gummit" will take care of them in their old age.
: They tend NOT to seek out financial advice. Those who have 401Ks tend to
: put the majority of their funds in low risk, low yield investments. They
: will look at the realities ONLY if someone seeks them out.....goes to
their
: houses, etc. MLMers do that, and generally in their circle of friends.
: I'm not too sure this is really a bad thing.
I think you may be looking a bit too hard for the silver lining here. The
chance that PFS salespeople have reached those who would otherwise go
without coverage is simply outweighed by other factors.
First, I submit that the high lapse rate mitigates this a great deal. The
otherwise "uncovered" don't keep coverage long, so how much good does this
do? Second, their self-serving approach to the replacement of cash-value
policies is downright criminal. Third, I think the number of people they
turn off altogether to insurance is more than those than they prevent from
going without. Finally, I think the public bears some reponsibility for
protecting their own futures. I am an agent, not a savior. There has to
be a good balance somewhere between writing only those clients that beg
you, and holding down a resistant prospect until they sign an app out of
desperation to be left alone. Still, the ultimate responsibility for
planning their future is theirs, not mine.
: PFS HAS sold a hell of a lot of term, and a lot of mutual funds as well.
: Granted, their term is not the term I'd sell, or buy. But, if their
: customers stay with their programs,
That is certainly the big "if," isn't it. Facts would indicate that
most clients do NOT "stay with their programs." So, PFS agents decry CV
life insurance as inappropriate for their clients. They defend their
"aggressive" sales practices as helping the otherwise uninsured. They then
undertake to sell a plan, knowing full well that very few will follow that
plan. [sniff] I smell a touch of hypocrisy.
: You cite the high cancellation rate, higher than industry standard.
: Perhaps one of the reasons for this is that the PFS deal got them
thinking
: and they later switch to better products. Again, would this have
happened
: without PFS?? I dunno.......but it's a thought.
I think there are many reasons, but I concede that I've not considered
the one you mention here. My compliments. This is certainly a
possibility, and one I would probably never have would have thought of.
: Don't get me wrong, I'm not a PFS defender. There's a hell of a lot I
: don't like about them,
Well, Bob, we seem to agree pretty much on this subject, as we often do.
Most of this is just minutiae . . . and you've provided some good food for
thought, as well.
Cheers!
Trey
Brent D. Gardner
>similarly on these motivational products, I would guess my RVP grossed
>about $210,000 from the sale of tools to his own downline. His income
>claims were about $400,000 a year. So we are talking about netting half
>of his income from indirect sales to his own recruits. Hmmm.
This is another fundamental difference between PFS and traditional career or
brokerage operations. When I was in a career shop, the agency manager or
general agent spend money out of his own pocket or out of his budget to send
agents to schools for advanced planning and continuing education. Sure, it may
have been subsidized by the company, but there was almost always a cost to the
manager -- and my understanding was that this was to discourage managers from
sending up new recruits who weren't working hard and already producing. In
other words, those on the fast track were groomed for continued success.
As a broker, the better companies will spend money on new and experienced
producers who regularly send in new business. There is a big boom in internal
education -- company sponsored "universities" that teach advanced concepts
while showing how products can fit within these concepts to solve client
problems.
Now, I'll admit that there is a small handful of brokerage agencies that get
off the track and try to cross market non-insurance products to their producer
list. Although I do not have a problem with the motive (profit), it's not why
I choose to do business with any one brokerage agency -- and I've no desire for
long distance service sold by an insurance agent, or any other products.
*IF* PFS RVPs are getting compensated for non-insurance, non-investment
products such as what has been described for a downline *AND* they fail to
disclose this in advance and obtain the cosent of the new recruits, *THEN* they
are the snakes we all think they are.
Full disclosure is the right way to do business.
CoverMe
Terry Burnett, our favorite right-wing conspirator, shocked me with
this:
: Assuming you were replying to me, that's very possible. But, the
*concept*
: of multi-level (insurance) marketing is not necessarily a bad thing.
Now I've seen everything. Terry and I actually disagree. What next,
companies increasing our commission rates? PFSers selling WL?
Trey Hutt, CPCU
Hutt Insurance
We've got you covered.
Robert C. Thomas
<83ji18$71h$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>
>
> And, with the possible exception of WMA, none of the other companies I
> mentioned above seems to be carrying on a hyped-up replacement crusade
> against the rest of the industry.
In 4 yrs with WMA (since retired) the only stuff I replaced was Primerica's
(grin). I did refuse to replace some because the client was better off
with what he had. I'm not aware of any emphasis on replacement in WMA.
I think it's noteworthy, however, that
> WMA is headquartered in Duluth, GA -- the same city where A. L. Williams
> once reigned . . . ?!
WMA was formed by a group of A L Wms highrollers. Maybe that's why.
cheers
bob
Robert C. Thomas
>
>
> That is definitely a flaw -- but not necessarily because it is an MLM.
From
> what I've heard, WMA's target market seems to be more financially
> sophisticated than Primerica's. I think they also sell cash value
products,
> but I'm not sure.
>
VUL. It seems as if some of their agents think VUL is as much a "one size
fits all" as the PFS guys do BTID.
> That's very interesting. I always suspected that there was some sort of
> connection between ALW/Primerica and WMA. And, I heard that Hubert
Humphrey
> hired Barry Switzer to "coach" his masses. Sounds familiar, eh?
>
between the two. Hubert was, for many years, the biggest earner in A L
Wms. Lots of the "building" techniques were brought along to WMA. Left
behind were the antagonistic, self righteous attitudes vis a vie the rest
of the industry, and the "BTID is the only answer" insanity.
If you like MLM, either company is damn successful. If you want to have
any friends at all in the industry, go with WMA. If your only goal is to
be one hell of a personal producer, I'd suggest you might wanna give 'em
both a miss.
cheers
bob
Robert C. Thomas
<01bf4b1c$175558e0$0a01a8c0@umktgghc>...
>
>
> Well, Bob, we seem to agree pretty much on this subject, as we often
do.
> Most of this is just minutiae . . . and you've provided some good food
for
> thought, as well.
>
least as much harm as good. I do try to look at the situation without the
benefit of my violent objection to their tactics. It's hard, but
somebody's gotta do it.
cheers
bob
peefis
Terry Burnett wrote:
>
> Do you know of any websites that provide *unbiased* info about WMA? I would
> love to do more research on them . . .
>
No, I don't. The only info I've seen is on their own website and on
bulletin boards. WMA doesn't seem to be capturing much media attention.
Robert C. Thomas
cheers
bob
peefis
"Robert C. Thomas" wrote:
>
> WMA was formed by a group of A L Wms highrollers. Maybe that's why.
>
> cheers
>
> bob
A question Bob: what's your perspective on S.Hubert Humphrey being
accused in court of making deceptive income claims?
http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/cases/mlm/feddistrict/alkelly.htm
Was he under influence of Art Williams' charismatic ravings as so many
PFSers are, even today?
peefis
This is the heart of the matter:
Mr Gardner wrote:
*IF* PFS RVPs are getting compensated for non-insurance, non-investment
products such as what has been described for a downline *AND* they fail
to
disclose this in advance and obtain the cosent of the new recruits,
*THEN*
they
are the snakes we all think they are.
Full disclosure is the right way to do business.
Brent D. Gardner
Registered Principal of and all securities offered through
United Planners' Financial Services of America
Member NASD, SIPC & The Pacific Exchange>
This information was not disclosed to me, and it was denied there was a
profit motive.
Others?
Robert C. Thomas
>
What next,
> companies increasing our commission rates? PFSers selling WL?
>
joining, the Travelers guys at being connected with the BTID fanatics, or
the PFS guys at the WL salesmen?? ;>)
Ripe area for idle speculation, huh?
cheers
bob
Terry Burnett
> Terry Burnett, our favorite right-wing conspirator
Shhhh! You want everybody to know?!
> : But, the *concept*
> : of multi-level (insurance) marketing is not necessarily a bad thing.
> Now I've seen everything. Terry and I actually disagree. What next,
> companies increasing our commission rates? PFSers selling WL?
Well, Trey, it's like this. Back in 1983, I was an introvert stuck in a
dead-end accounting job when a relative recruited me as a part-time agent
for Surety Life. Surety was a ALW wannabe, and their main product was a
modified WL product that they marketed as a "term + annuity" combo. Of
course, I didn't know beans about life insurance (like ZERO), but this
opportunity sounded like a dream come true.
So, I got licensed, and began selling a few policies in my spare time --
which certainly didn't come easy. Also, the training I received was very
confusing. My manager didn't even understand the product we were selling,
and it didn't bother him to tell clients things that were misleading or do
things that were unethical. (Indeed, he was a replacement artist if there
ever was one.)
But to me, all this was a wake-up call. I started studying life insurance
textbooks like crazy, and I switched to selling for other companies whose
sales practices were more honorable. Only then would I be able to respect
myself as an agent.
Even after all this, I find it difficult to despise MLM's per se, because
that's how I got my start in this business. Before that, I thought the only
way somebody could get into the insurance business was if their Dad was an
agent.
So, even though I don't agree with a lot of things MLM's do, I think the MLM
concept still has some value for people who are stuck in dead-end jobs.
However, they definitely need managers who are better trained in product
knowledge and ethics . . . :)
Terry
posandrew
"Terry Burnett" <tlbu...@nospam-term30.com> wrote:
> peefis <pneoes...@ynaohsopoa.mcom> wrote
> > So somewhere between 5 and 6 levels, there is nobody left to
recruit.
> > That means people getting in the business at that point have NO
CHANCE
> > at success. They must leave the area completely and go somewhere
else.
>
> I suppose that's true, if their primary emphasis is on recruiting.
That is
> the flaw.
>
> > Just because corporations do it, doesnt mean it isnt flawed.
>
> Agreed. I was an agent for some of those pseudo-MLM companies in
years
> past, and I wasn't favorably impressed.
>
> > This isn't necessarily so. PFS's market is the middle income family.
> > They do not purchase huge policies.
>
MLM. From
> what I've heard, WMA's target market seems to be more financially
> sophisticated than Primerica's. I think they also sell cash value
products,
> but I'm not sure.
You're right, WMA does sell CV products. They also have many other
financial products as well. For the reps who can't pass their
licenses, they have the Dot Planet ISP, DISH Network, or "Debt Mastery"
for the reps to sell. The vast majority of WMA's sales come from
selling Western Reserve's VUL. WMA uses this VUL as a one-size-fits-
all solution in much the same way Primerica reps blindly recommend BTID
as a one-size-fits-all solution.
If one were to visit any WMA office, it'd be self evident that the main
goal is to recruit others to recruit others. Their M.O. is virtually
the same as Primerica's. In fact, back in August, I was tricked into
going to a WMA meeting in San Jose. I had an appointment with a
business owner to discuss strategies to lower their credit card
processing costs at 7pm at his "other office". I just thought he was
working late. When I got there, I saw the WMA sign and I was thinking
I was tricked. I went inside anyways just to give him a benefit of a
doubt. Within a few minutes, I knew that he only wanted me there to
recruit me. Other people in the office knew that I was tricked into
going there, but they took part in the deception and everyone persisted
in trying to recruit me. The "business owner" actually called me back
the next day to try and recruit me on a 3-way call with his recruiter.
Selling to financially sophisticated clients require reps who are
equally savvy. I've never seen that from the WMA reps I've come into
contact in the San Jose, CA area over the past few years. These WMA
reps are no different than any other MLMer. Here's a hugh thread about
WMA on a Brill Mutual Funds Interactive message board. Notice that
none of the WMA people seem to know anything other than the superficial
company propaganda that's fed to them.
http://www.brill.com/club/index.html
> > As a PFA with no recruits, you earn
> > 25% before expenses.
>
> Are you serious?? A bottom-level agent with the other companies I
mentioned
> starts at around 50% to 55% commission. That's not a lot, but the
> possibility of making $200 on one sale can definitely get a potential
> recruit's attention. In contrast, it's virtually impossible to make
any
> serious money selling and delivering overpriced Amway products.
> Organizations that depend totally on recruiting are a sham IMO.
>
> By the way, that's what I like about selling life insurance -- it's
never
> out of stock, there are no seasonal discounts, and you don't have to
mess
> with sales taxes or shipping charges! :)
WMA is a little better than Primerica commission wise. I believe it's
30% commission at the lowest level and one can sell CV products.
> > No, it is not a pyramid according to definition and when PFS's
rules are
> > followed. But wghen RVPs in the company require a payment in order
to
> > join, then they have crossed the line.
>
> Probably true. Amway seems to have crossed that line also, by
pushing their
> downlines to sell $300 sales kits to the people they recruit. That
sort of
> thing was prohibited in the 1970's, but I guess things have changed
since
> then . . .
>
> > WMA was started by an ex-A.L. Williams rep.
> > Here's an interesting lawsuit in which A.L. Williams Co. is sued
> > for making false income claims, and S. Hubert Humphrey, founder of
WMA,
> > is named as the agent.
>
> That's very interesting. I always suspected that there was some sort
of
> connection between ALW/Primerica and WMA. And, I heard that Hubert
Humphrey
> hired Barry Switzer to "coach" his masses. Sounds familiar, eh?
>
> Do you know of any websites that provide *unbiased* info about WMA?
I would
> love to do more research on them . . .
There's an NASD report on WMA about their Cease & Desist orders in
Arizona and California. Just type in WMA's broker # 32625 and you'll
get the report emailed to you. Here's the URL to the NASD's Public
Disclosure Program:
http://pdpi.nasdr.com/pdpi/disclaimer_frame.htm
posandrew
> TLB
>
> P. S. -- I came very close to signing up with ALW back in 1991,
before I
> knew much about them. However, after reading their 45-page contract,
I told
> them to get lost. There's no way would I give up my right to hire an
> attorney just to be an agent for their infamous organization . . .
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Terry Burnett
Primerica's
> (grin).
Funny!
> I did refuse to replace some because the client was better off
> with what he had. I'm not aware of any emphasis on replacement in WMA.
Well, that's good news. However, I've had a problem with a few local WMA
agents pressuring my clients, trying to get them to SIGN UP. Of course,
it's not hard to figure out that replacement would be the NEXT step . . .
> WMA was formed by a group of A L Wms highrollers. Maybe that's why.
I thought so. They seem to be a respectable organization, but their
aggressiveness makes me suspicious. I'd like to find out more about them,
if you feel like divulging such information. :)
Terry
Terry Burnett
> You're right, WMA does sell CV products. They also have many other
> financial products as well. For the reps who can't pass their
> licenses, they have the Dot Planet ISP, DISH Network, or "Debt Mastery"
> for the reps to sell.
Uh-oh. That makes them sound a LOT like Amway. Maybe Trey was right --
telemarketers anyone?
> The vast majority of WMA's sales come from
> selling Western Reserve's VUL. WMA uses this VUL as a one-size-fits-
> all solution in much the same way Primerica reps blindly recommend BTID
> as a one-size-fits-all solution.
I see. Bob said the same thing. I knew WMA was selling investment
products, but I wasn't sure what kind.
> If one were to visit any WMA office, it'd be self evident that the main
> goal is to recruit others to recruit others. Their M.O. is virtually
> the same as Primerica's.
That's a shame, but I'm not surprised. Several WMA people have been chasing
my clients, and I'm not too happy about that.
> Selling to financially sophisticated clients require reps who are
> equally savvy. I've never seen that from the WMA reps I've come into
> contact in the San Jose, CA area over the past few years. These WMA
> reps are no different than any other MLMer.
Just like Primerica, eh?
> Here's a hugh thread about
> WMA on a Brill Mutual Funds Interactive message board. Notice that
> none of the WMA people seem to know anything other than the superficial
> company propaganda that's fed to them.
> http://www.brill.com/club/index.html
Thanks for the link. Yeah, propaganda is the primary problem with MLM's. I
call it "Amway brain freeze syndrome" -- those who are afflicted with it are
in dire need of a reality check . . .
> WMA is a little better than Primerica commission wise. I believe it's
> 30% commission at the lowest level and one can sell CV products.
That's sad. Obviously, the company is getting rich off the poor suckers at
the bottom, and they don't know it.
> There's an NASD report on WMA about their Cease & Desist orders in
> Arizona and California. Just type in WMA's broker # 32625 and you'll
> get the report emailed to you. Here's the URL to the NASD's Public
> Disclosure Program:
> http://pdpi.nasdr.com/pdpi/disclaimer_frame.htm
Thanks. If you hear about any other links, please let me know.
Terry
Cal_Lester
> Well, Trey, it's like this. Back in 1983, I was an introvert
stuck in a
> dead-end accounting job when a relative recruited me as a
part-time agent
> for Surety Life. Surety was a ALW wannabe, and their main
product was a
> modified WL product that they marketed as a "term + annuity"
combo. Of
> course, I didn't know beans about life insurance (like ZERO),
but this
> opportunity sounded like a dream come true.
Terry, I am hoping that you either made some sort of mistake
here, or possibly
are "talking with tongue in cheek". Your description of Surety
Life is most
certainly not an accurate on.
I joined Surety Life in 1981, after having been in the business
since 1963. I
licensed with them primarily because of their association with
Sears,
which at the time I felt was an asset. I was appointed as an
Executive
Sales Director ( about one step above that of a G.A.). One of my
primary
jobs, in addition to sales, was to recruit G.A's to write for
the company.
This is EXACTLY the same practice of most companies. Every G.A.
receives "overwrites" on the agents that he recruits and trains.
As to the product line, it was full and complete with W/L, term
and
that new kid on the block, U/L. We did NOT offer any "non
insurance products
and I really take offense at the reference to an ALW wannabe
Cal
Larry
group called Capital Choice. They seem legitimate and you can build a
network under you or stay at the individual level. If anyone has any
info on them I'd love to hear about it. They have a website at
www.captialchoice.com My wife recently remarked at a Christmas party
given by one of the marketing agencies that I work with - "Boy, there
sure are a lot of slimey people in this business". Present company
excluded of course.
Terry Burnett
> VUL. It seems as if some of their agents think VUL is as much a "one size
> fits all" as the PFS guys do BTID.
Maybe they just want to make sure their clients invest the difference. :)
So, which insurance companies do they represent primarily? I've heard that
Zurich Kemper is one of them, but I don't know about any others . . .
> There's no connection, as such. In fact there is considerable enmity
> between the two. Hubert was, for many years, the biggest earner in A L
> Wms. Lots of the "building" techniques were brought along to WMA. Left
> behind were the antagonistic, self righteous attitudes vis a vie the rest
> of the industry, and the "BTID is the only answer" insanity.
That's good. I can't help but wonder what Primerica executives think about
WMA . . . :)
> If you want to have
> any friends at all in the industry, go with WMA.
I'm not sure I'd want to join them, but I would like to know more about
their MLM structure. How many levels are there, and does everybody start at
the bottom (including registered NASD reps)?
Terry
Brent D. Gardner
>;>) I've often wondered which were the most horrified at the Travelers/PFS
>joining, the Travelers guys at being connected with the BTID fanatics, or
>the PFS guys at the WL salesmen?? ;>)
>
>Ripe area for idle speculation, huh?
I can remember when this was happening -- and the most unhappy people in town
where the Travelers GAs! I know of some agents who simply jumped ship because
they feared the loss of prestige with the public and respect of their peers. I
can't blame them.
On the other hand, I've never had a PFS agent solicit me on the phone by
identifying themselves as a PFS agent, BUT, there have been a few who said they
worked for "Travelers" and now "CitiGroup."
I'm not sure, but I bet a wooden nickle that a PFS agents contract does not
mention a business relationship with either Travelers or CitiGroup --
therefore, they are breaking the law and practicing unethically when they fail
to identify who they are working for.
Brent D. Gardner
Registered principal of and all securities offered through
United Planners' Financial Services of America
Member NASD, SIPC & The Pacific Exchange
Money is flat and meant to be piled high - Scottish Proverb
Terry Burnett
> No, I don't. The only info I've seen is on their own website and on
> bulletin boards. WMA doesn't seem to be capturing much media attention.
OK, thanks.
By the way, it's nice to have an ex-PFA in this group. Keep up the good
work. :)
Terry
Robert C. Thomas
> They seem to be a respectable organization, but their
> aggressiveness makes me suspicious. I'd like to find out more about
them,
> if you feel like divulging such information. :)
>
to know???? I'll answer as straight as I can.....
cheers
bob
Robert C. Thomas
<385F4714...@ynaohsopoa.mcom>...
>
> A question Bob: what's your perspective on S.Hubert Humphrey being
> accused in court of making deceptive income claims?
>
Don't really have much of one. Having been an MLMer with several companies
it's easy to see how one might think there's some kind of guarantee......
Is this the case where the people (altho their incomes had tripled) were
pissed because they didn't get the "millions"?
I know Hubert took $22 Million of his own money to form WMA.....money he'd
made and saved from A L Wms. He's living proof it can happen. I was in
solid 6 figure country myself. I told people what I made, showed
projections of what could happen IF, but I made damn sure they understood
IF.........
Despite this, and despite my continuing efforts to help in every way
possible, I had people who were not successful. I suspect this is the same
sort of thing that happened to Hubert.
cheers
bob
Robert C. Thomas
<83qtc5$a34$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
> "Robert C. Thomas" <ski...@kitsune.swcp.com> wrote:
>
> >Forrest Jackson <abc...@atl.mindspring.com> wrote in article
> ><8338tv$ccj$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
> >>
> >> I have seen many
>
> >How many? You list one.
> How many would you like? An agent tried to sell me a whole life
> policy by telling me I could fund my daughters education. This agent
> also never got any information from me concerning my income, debts, if
> I had children, etc. He just came to my house with illustrations on
> $100,000 of coverage on me and my wife.
>
OK, that's two. Have you EVER gone to see a client with your mind open
enough to even consider the possibility that he might need something other
than term? Has ANY Primerica agent ever done that?? Most traditional
agents sell more term that you do. I certainly sold a lot of it. But,
term is no always the answer, neither is BTID.
BTW, wasn't it you who, on another thread, who said you don't try to defend
the actions of bad PFS agents?? Yet, you take this pathetically small
sample of yours and are generalizing to the entire industry.
> I dont agree with insuring your insurability, but then the agent
> should have sold him more than $50,000 of coverage. He would
> definetly need more coverage than $50,000.
Whether you agree with it or not, there are those clients who think it's a
good idea.
Not having been there I cannot speak to the client's needs. It is only you
PFS agents who always know their client's needs (term) before they even
speak to them.
cheers
bob
LarryStiver
If you continue to separate yourself from the rest of the PFSers...then why
don't you separate yourself FROM PFS?
Larry
Robert C. Thomas
>
>
> Maybe they just want to make sure their clients invest the difference.
:)
>
> So, which insurance companies do they represent primarily? I've heard
that
> Zurich Kemper is one of them, but I don't know about any others . . .
>
Yup, Kemper mostly for term. Western Reserve Life is lead Co. for VUL.
They have access to about 90 companies including Pru (which btw pisses off
Pru's captive agents no end).
> That's good. I can't help but wonder what Primerica executives think
about
> WMA . . . :)
>
They hate 'em with a passion. Not only are they traitors, having left the
fold, but they have the effrontery to represent/sell permanent life, which,
of course, proves that they are money grubbin' rip-off artists only
interested in the high commissions. And, to top it off, they've recruited
a hell of a lot of PFS agents.
>
> I'm not sure I'd want to join them, but I would like to know more about
> their MLM structure. How many levels are there, and does everybody start
at
> the bottom (including registered NASD reps)?
>
Registered Reps who've earned $50K in a year are generally brought in as
Marketing Directors, 75% commission on target premium on VUL, for instance.
There are three levels below that and I think 2 or three above....
When I left 'em 3 yrs ago, they were requiring all MDs to become Registered
Principals and STRONG pressure to acquire CLU etc. etc. The plan was to
make them a requirement. Dunno where that went.....
I was an MD when I retired.
cheers
bob
Robert C. Thomas
>
>
> Uh-oh. That makes them sound a LOT like Amway. Maybe Trey was right --
> telemarketers anyone?
>
WMA is an MLM with various products. WMA Securities, Inc. is a separate
org and deals only with financial products.
>
> That's a shame, but I'm not surprised. Several WMA people have been
chasing
> my clients, and I'm not too happy about that.
>
Well, that's sorta the point of joining.....to build an organization. If
production is your only goal, it'd be real stupid to join WMA, or PFS. It
is true that many of the methods are similar, after all, the people who
formed WMA came from A L Wms. And, as I've said before, there is nothing
inherently wrong with MLM. What's missing from the WMA pitch is the near
religious fanaticism of the crusade to save the world from the unscrupulous
purveyors of permanent life. WMA reps ain't got no white horse.
cheers
bob
Brent D. Gardner
>products I sell to my clients. With this last statement you discredit
>anything you say. You should think before you speak, for your
>information the funds I put these people in were Van Kampen B shares.
>Why don't you grab a prospectus and educate yourself.
I find this amusing. I can understand WHY a PFS rep would push B shares. It's
the wimpy way out, first and foremost, and second, it's the most likely course
for a registered rep to misrepresent themselves. Finally, B shares are sold by
those who are afraid of confronting the whole issue of how they get paid --
they want to find a way to HIDE their compensation.
I never sell B shares.
Brent D. Gardner
>Remember we are all part-timers(as claimedon this NG) and can't
>possibly be very good at sales to begin with because we are all
>mechanics and have no experience in high-pressure sales.
This is another difference between professionals and nonprofessionals.
Professionals don't need to resort to high pressure to make a living -- because
knowledge, all the products (tools), and service are what gets and keeps the
quality business.
Part timers are a LOT more likely to resort to high pressure tactics -- for
several reasons.
1. They don't know any better
2. They wrongly assume this is the only way
3. They are trained that way
4. They MUST make the sale TONIGHT or live on the day job paycheck ONLY
5. They use mythology and material misrepresentations (read: lies) to push one
overpriced product over all others -- it's impossible to consultatively sell
and be successful when you only have a ONE SIZE FITS ALL solution.