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Seeking a wide opinion about Primerica

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Anthony F. Nelson

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Apr 27, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/27/00
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Folks in the ether . . .

I've been pitched on the 'next big thing'; what I need is data, opinion if
you will, of what the heck it's all about.

I reside in the fourth largest city in America and can assure you there are
more prospects than time. What worry's me about adopting a mentality of go
forth without hesitation is the obvious fact that as I didn't invent this
program, I am unaware of what the real downers of becoming a "Captive Agent"
with this company. They appear well funded, so why would they farm out the
real gut work to idiot newbies like myself. The intuitive guess is that it
is far more profitable to extract sign up fee's, etc. and then have a few
contracts come in that will last way longer than the average hang time of
the "Captive Agent". Why wouldn't they use the most efficient distribution
methodologies to reach this 'huge surplus of folks in the boomer
demographic'. (My words, not theirs!)

Sell me on why I should commit to PFS for the immediate and five year
horizon. I have one business already as a Manufacturer's Representative
providing marketing & sales services for over forty companies and I can tell
you hard work, coupled with luck, moxy and the fact that the sector I work
in is food, brings in the paycheck.

--
Visit our website at http://ingredients.home.att.net


Robert C. Thomas

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Apr 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/28/00
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Anthony F. Nelson <ingre...@att.net> wrote in article
<Ib4O4.37791$WF.18...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

> Folks in the ether . . .
>
> I've been pitched on the 'next big thing'; what I need is data, opinion
if
> you will, of what the heck it's all about.
>
This really opens Pandora's box. You will generally get one of two
opinions, one, that they are the representatives of the Messiah, with a
mission to educate the country about the underhanded, unprincipled agents
of the industry, or, two, that they represent the Antichrist. Truth, of
course, lies somewhere in between.

First, they are an MLM, or network marketing company. If you are up for
that, no problem, except for the facts that this kind of organization
primarily attracts "builders" and most of the training is on how to build.
This frequently leaves the best interests of the individual client taking
second place, or poorly served by an ill trained agent.

Second, they are, in essence, a single solution company in the "retirement
planning" sense. Their approach, Buy Term and Invest the Difference (BTID)
is, indeed, a very good program for very many, especially, working, people.
It is NOT however the only, nor is it the best, solution for many people,
especially the affluent.

Third, they are near universally held in contempt and/or hated by the rest
of the industry. If you can live with that, and be content that BTID
serves many people very well, concentrating upon them, you might be happy
with them. If you want the respect of the rest of the industry, or would
like to serve more than those for whom BTID is the best solution, forget
it.

I am not, nor have I ever been a Primerica agent. (Just so you know).

cheers

bob

SCat999999

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Apr 28, 2000, 3:00:00 AM4/28/00
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>The intuitive guess is that it
>is far more profitable to extract sign up fee's, etc. and then have a few
>contracts come in that will last way longer than the average hang time of
>the "Captive Agent".

Trust your gut feeling on this. That's the name of the game. Collect some fees,
sell policies to the newbies friends and relatives (while letting him watch as
training) and then keep whatever business sticks after the newbie leaves.

>Sell me on why I should commit to PFS for the immediate and five year
>horizon. I have one business already as a Manufacturer's Representative
>providing marketing & sales services for over forty companies and I can tell
>you hard work, coupled with luck, moxy and the fact that the sector I work
in is food, brings in the paycheck.


I wouldn't. Since you are already in sales, you are already in control of your
income. Time spent on this"opportunity" will only take you away from your
primary selling business. You're obviously already an independent contractor so
you have nothing to gain. But you have a lot to lose. If you are thinking you
already have a client base to sell PFS's products to, you may find that you end
up losing them as clients for your primary business. PFS products don't offer
solutions to most business insurance needs. And trying to shoehorn their
philosophies into inappropriate situations will ruin the credibility and
relationships you've been working to build.
Now if you were thinking about a career change...that's a different issue. But
they still wouldn't be my choice.

Steve, LUTCF


USMCPFS

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00
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Steve:

>That's the name of the game. Collect some fees,>

What fee's are you referring to? Are you suggesting that the $199.00 is a
profit center? In many states the prelicensing course and state exam is well in
excess of $199.00. Our new associates do not pay these fees for licensing.

>sell policies to the newbies friends and relatives (while letting him watch
>as
>training) and then keep whatever business sticks after the newbie leaves.>

Unfortunately, that is exactly what happens throughout the industry. Steve,
you are not actually suggesting that most agents make it long term in this
business, are you? As you and I both know (and have discussed many times) the
atttrition rate within this industry is staggering.


Chris Hesenflow

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May 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/3/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
If you are seeking a wide opinion on Primerica, okay, here's mine. I have
a hard time with some of the folks who post in this group that are so
negative about Primerica. Primerica is the #1 term insurance company in the
country, and what is wrong with term, the vast majority of
(objective)financial experts agree that for most, term is the way to go.

How about Smith Barney, the #2 brokerage firm in the US, been around for
ages, brokered some of the largest mergers in recent history.

The Travelers companies, simple interest loans, variable annuities.

If you are already in sales, hey that's great, you would probably do
terrific as a Primerica rep (or anywhere else). And as far as your market,
I don't believe Primerica even targets business as their market, it is
primarily middle class America.

And if you are interested in just collecting a paycheck, stay with your
current position, but do you have the opportunity to own a franchise in your
current company? Or could you decide to sell your book of business after 10
years or so?

Also, if you are interested in just being an insurance agent, I don't
believe that Primerica would be the place to be, term policies do not pay
high commissions, however, if you are interested in developing a business of
your own, it might be for you. But you must go beyond a simple insurance
license. You must get Series 6, 63 and 26 licenses for mutual funds,
something most "insurance" agents cannot provide their clients, so.. their
answer to everything from retirement to college funding tends to be cash
value life insurance. The argument is that it is "forced savings", which I
agree most people do need, however, if someone cancels their cash value life
policy or lets it lapse, where's the forced savings? You are probably
better off buying an insurance policy while you need it, then setting up
your mutual funds for retirement or whatever, at the same time on an
automatic draft using the dollar cost averaging method. Your investments
would grow much faster if invested directly in a fund than inside an
insurance policy, wouldn't you agree?

I don't want to get into a term vs. cv issue, however, Primerica does bring
much to the table in terms of a full package of products. There are
probably those unprofessional people in Primerica, however, wherever you go,
there are unprofessional people, just read the papers.

In addition, most folks don't know where to save money, most don't know how
to accelerate debt, most people don't understand their life insurance
policy, because it's not in the respective industries best interest to
explain it to them.

I would personally investigate before making a final decision, talk to
someone who has actually done well in Primerica, but also talk to someone
who failed, get both ends of the scale to find out what type of motivation
you have and don't rely on a people who post to a newsgroup.

best of luck to you whatever you decide.

Chris

"SCat999999" <scat9...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000428090422...@ng-ca1.aol.com...


> >The intuitive guess is that it
> >is far more profitable to extract sign up fee's, etc. and then have a few
> >contracts come in that will last way longer than the average hang time of
> >the "Captive Agent".
>

> Trust your gut feeling on this. That's the name of the game. Collect some
fees,


> sell policies to the newbies friends and relatives (while letting him
watch as
> training) and then keep whatever business sticks after the newbie leaves.
>

Brent D. Gardner

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
>Steve,
>you are not actually suggesting that most agents make it long term in this
>business, are you? As you and I both know (and have discussed many times) the
>atttrition rate within this industry is staggering.

I learned something new last week at my annual partners conference with my
broker/dealer. The people who "failed" in the insurance industry who then went
on to be securities brokers (and vice-versa), or to be fee based, or fee only,
financial planners and advisors, is rather large.

In other words, the attrition rate isn't near what we think it is. Agents,
registered reps, brokers, et al., tend to change positions, accept promotions
(to salaried jobs like wholesaling), or change course -- but remaining in the
financial services community. Surely the experience of selling life insurance
added to their skills that helped them get the job they have now.

I'm not countering Semp's arguement -- just adding flavor. I still think the
attrition rate is too high, but last week I was surrounded by over a hundred
"failed" insurance agents who are now independent fee based financial advisors
-- many who make well in excess of six figures AFTER business expenses and
income taxes. :-)


Brent D. Gardner
http://www.gardnerfinancialgroup.com/
Money is flat and meant to be piled high-Scottish Proverb


Brent D. Gardner

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00
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Chris Hesenflow wrote:
>Primerica is the #1 term insurance company in the
>country

#1 in what? Premium? Policies? Average face amount? Persistency? Number of
claims denied???

>term policies do not pay
>high commissions,

Incorrect. Term pays just as much, if not more, than most other kinds of
insurance, including cash value. Any FULL TIME agent knows this.

>You must get Series 6, 63 and 26 licenses for mutual funds,
>something most "insurance" agents cannot provide their clients, so

Incorrect. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. It
looks funny on a cartoon, but in real life it's a sign of a lack of personal
integrity. Some agents don't sell securities. Some securities brokers don't
sell insurance. These people are specialists -- and will blow the amateurs out
of the water. DO NOT presume that because you sell MORE products that you're
somehow better -- most intelligent adults know that you're not.

>their
>answer to everything from retirement to college funding tends to be cash
>value life insurance.

Incorrect. Professionals evaluate and use ALL the tools available -- and if
that means permanent insurance, then so be it. Amateurs limit their offerings
to overpriced products that do NOT solve all the problems.

>The argument is that it is "forced savings", which I
>agree most people do need, however, if someone cancels their cash value life
>policy or lets it lapse, where's the forced savings?

Forced savings is merely ONE of the advantages of cash value life insurance.
You've obviously recently graduated from PFS elementary and you've heard this
point of attack repeated many times. In reality, it's rarely used by the FULL
TIME professionals -- except where it's needed.

>Your investments
>would grow much faster if invested directly in a fund than inside an
>insurance policy, wouldn't you agree?

Agree? Try PROVING and then providing a personal GUARANTEE to back up your
assertion. If you can't do that, then you need to go back to your day job.

>I don't want to get into a term vs. cv issue,

Why not? You already opened your mouth! Does the taste of shoe leather make you
gag? Or is it that extra "flavor" you stepped in before inserting the shoe?

>There are
>probably those unprofessional people in Primerica

Let me help you. Remove the word "probably" from the above sentence and you'll
be 100% correct.

>most people don't understand their life insurance
>policy, because it's not in the respective industries best interest to
>explain it to them.

Bull<cough>hit! Ever hear of due diligence? How about suitability? People
understand these products as much, or as little, as they see fit -- with the
help of a FULL TIME professional. Amateurs CANNOT adequately explain all of the
various types of policies because they don't have the time, nor the
wherewithal, or the resources from which to draw upon. Instead, the rely on
"twisting" (a criminal act) and material misrepresentations and misleading
double talk taught by people who have made their living by committing criminal
acts.

Paul Maffia

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
"Chris Hesenflow" <chri...@jps.net> writes:

>If you are seeking a wide opinion on Primerica, okay, here's mine. I have
>a hard time with some of the folks who post in this group that are so
>negative about Primerica. Primerica is the #1 term insurance company in the
>country, and what is wrong with term, the vast majority of
>(objective)financial experts agree that for most, term is the way to go.

>How about Smith Barney, the #2 brokerage firm in the US, been around for
>ages, brokered some of the largest mergers in recent history.

>The Travelers companies, simple interest loans, variable annuities.

What do Smith Barney and Travelers got to do with Primerica?

Smith Barney and Travelers each, and independently of PFS, produce far
more revenue and profits for CitiCorp than PFS does. And remember PFS is a
subsidiary of Primerica, which itself is a subsidiary of CitiCorp. PFS is
further down the totem pole than SB or Travelers in the CitiCorp
organization.

All three are independent subsidiaries of CitiCorp. Primerica agents
licensed to sell investment products can sell Smith Barney Mutual funds.
But so can just about anyone licensed to sell mutual funds.

PFS reps can and do sell some Travelers insurance products but not any of
its cash value polices which it sells a bucketful of every year, possibly
even more in face value than all the PFS agents sell combined.

>And if you are interested in just collecting a paycheck, stay with your
>current position, but do you have the opportunity to own a franchise in your
>current company? Or could you decide to sell your book of business after 10
>years or so?

What difference does it make if someone is a captive agent of any other
insurance company or a franchisee of PFS (not Primerica)?

In either case the relationship can be terminated by the company at any
time for cause and with PFS for any reason.

>Also, if you are interested in just being an insurance agent, I don't
>believe that Primerica would be the place to be, term policies do not pay
>high commissions, however, if you are interested in developing a business of
>your own, it might be for you. But you must go beyond a simple insurance

>license. You must get Series 6, 63 and 26 licenses for mutual funds,
>something most "insurance" agents cannot provide their clients, so.. their


>answer to everything from retirement to college funding tends to be cash

>value life insurance. The argument is that it is "forced savings", which I


>agree most people do need, however, if someone cancels their cash value life

>policy or lets it lapse, where's the forced savings? You are probably
>better off buying an insurance policy while you need it, then setting up
>your mutual funds for retirement or whatever, at the same time on an

>automatic draft using the dollar cost averaging method. Your investments


>would grow much faster if invested directly in a fund than inside an
>insurance policy, wouldn't you agree?

And what happens if a person has set up an automatic draft program and then
cancels it?

Think about it. Your attempt to use this as a defense for the way
Primerica does business is worthless as a comparison.

That is my objection to so many who attempt to defend PFS. They are
strictly amateurs who do such a poor job they make the company look bad.

>I don't want to get into a term vs. cv issue, however, Primerica does bring
>much to the table in terms of a full package of products. There are
>probably those unprofessional people in Primerica, however, wherever you go,
>there are unprofessional people, just read the papers.

PFS may have much a trained agent can bring to the table. But as you
point out (and to put it differently), any company is only as good as the
company rep. a particular individual meets and must deal with. and when
that rep. is as amateurish as you are, what more needs to be said?

>In addition, most folks don't know where to save money, most don't know how

>to accelerate debt, most people don't understand their life insurance


>policy, because it's not in the respective industries best interest to
>explain it to them.

The last statement is hyperbolic nonsense.
--
Paul M.


Robert C. Thomas

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00
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Chris Hesenflow <chri...@jps.net> wrote in article
<e_5Q4.845$7B6....@nntp1.onemain.com>...

> If you are seeking a wide opinion on Primerica, okay, here's mine. I
have
> a hard time with some of the folks who post in this group that are so
> negative about Primerica.

That's OK. Many of us have a hard time with the ignorance of many of the
Primerica people who post here, as well as the arrogance of their firm
belief that they are the only "good guys". I, for one, particularly object
to the half truths and generally misleading lines such as, "They lend you
your own money".

Primerica is the #1 term insurance company in the
> country, and what is wrong with term, the vast majority of
> (objective)financial experts agree that for most, term is the way to go.
>

Most traditional agents would freely agree that term "is the way to go"
provided your need is for temporary insurance. This may come as a
considerable surprise to most Primerica agents, but that is not the only
insurance need there is.



> How about Smith Barney, the #2 brokerage firm in the US, been around for
> ages, brokered some of the largest mergers in recent history.
>

There's nothing wrong with Smith Barney. It is, however, interesting that
every Primerica agent recommendation I've heard of is for a fund with 5.5%
load. '>)



> The Travelers companies, simple interest loans, variable annuities.
>

Interesting. You do realize that a variable annuity IS a mixed
investment/';insurance product........?



> If you are already in sales, hey that's great, you would probably do
> terrific as a Primerica rep (or anywhere else). And as far as your
market,
> I don't believe Primerica even targets business as their market, it is
> primarily middle class America.
>

Middle and lower class. They have, essentially nothing for the affluent.



> And if you are interested in just collecting a paycheck, stay with your
> current position, but do you have the opportunity to own a franchise in
your
> current company? Or could you decide to sell your book of business after
10
> years or so?
>

There are uncountable numbers of franchises that offer much the same thing.



> Also, if you are interested in just being an insurance agent, I don't
> believe that Primerica would be the place to be,

Probably true.

term policies do not pay
> high commissions,

Actually term policies pay much higher commissions than CV insurance. The
difference lies in the fact that term (only) costs less than permanent
life. Primerica agents make very good commissions, thank you very much, on
the mutual funds that accompany term in a BTID program. In point of fact,
total commissions for a given amount of money in, especially with the 5.5%
load on the mutual funds is greater than the commissions on a permanent
policy such as a Variable Universal Life policy, especially when it is set
up appropriately (below Target).

however, if you are interested in developing a business of
> your own, it might be for you.

That's true, it might be.

But you must go beyond a simple insurance
> license. You must get Series 6, 63 and 26 licenses for mutual funds,

You don't need a Series 26 to sell mutual funds. This is the license for a
Registered Principal to supervise mutual fund salesmen, i.e. subagents.

> something most "insurance" agents cannot provide their clients,

I don't believe that's quite true. Extremely large numbers of "insurance"
agents (as you called them) have their licenses, including Series 7.

so.. their
> answer to everything from retirement to college funding tends to be cash
> value life insurance.

This is a joke, right? In comparing Primerica to the traditional agency,
you imply that the traditional agents are a single solution entity? In
point of fact, most traditional agents with which I am familiar sell more
term than anything else. Vast numbers of BTID plans are sold by
traditional agents. They just don't think they invented BTID and are aware
that this program, as good as it is, does NOT solve ALL financial planning
needs.

The argument is that it is "forced savings", which I
> agree most people do need,

This is a very minor "argument". There are a myriad of others..........

however, if someone cancels their cash value life
> policy or lets it lapse, where's the forced savings?

And, the 75% of Primerica agents that cancel their mutual funds? What
about them? Where's their savings???

You are probably
> better off buying an insurance policy while you need it, then setting up
> your mutual funds for retirement or whatever, at the same time on an
> automatic draft using the dollar cost averaging method.

This is, indeed, possible. BTID is an extremely good program for most of
middle class America. It isn't, however, the ONLY way to go.

Your investments
> would grow much faster if invested directly in a fund than inside an
> insurance policy, wouldn't you agree?
>

That's rather a silly statement. Given that it can easily be essentially
the same fund, the growth is pretty much the same. If you are alluding to
the fact that not all the monthly payment goes into the fund in a VUL,
that's true. Neither does it all go into the fund in a BTID program.
First, it goes to pay for the term. Second, 5.5% goes to pay the load.
Please don't try to stack the deck here. This is the kind of
misinformation/misleading statement that most of us object to in the
Primerica kant. In addition, you somehow forgot to mention that the money
in an insurance policy can be accessed tax free (with certain
qualifications, i.e. if the policy lapses the money then becomes
taxable...not a good idea)



> I don't want to get into a term vs. cv issue,

That's a very good idea on your part. I have yet to meet a Primerica agent
who understands CV. Most have only a superficial understanding of their
own term.

however, Primerica does bring
> much to the table in terms of a full package of products. There are
> probably those unprofessional people in Primerica, however, wherever you
go,
> there are unprofessional people, just read the papers.
>

Is this an apology?



> In addition, most folks don't know where to save money, most don't know
how
> to accelerate debt, most people don't understand their life insurance
> policy, because it's not in the respective industries best interest to
> explain it to them.
>

Bull Crap! Most people don't understand because they don't listen. They
often hear what they want to hear.



> I would personally investigate before making a final decision,

Damn good idea!!!

talk to
> someone who has actually done well in Primerica, but also talk to someone
> who failed, get both ends of the scale to find out what type of
motivation
> you have and don't rely on a people who post to a newsgroup.
>

Does that include you????

> best of luck to you whatever you decide.
>

I would second that.

cheers

bob

USMCPFS

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Brent:

> Instead, the rely on
>"twisting" (a criminal act) and material misrepresentations and misleading
>double talk taught by people who have made their living by committing
>criminal
>acts.>

I'd disagree. What were the results of these alleged "criminal acts" and
specifically what were their names?

USMCPFS

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Paul:

>What do Smith Barney and Travelers got to do with Primerica?>

They are sister companies.

>And remember PFS is a
>subsidiary of Primerica, which itself is a subsidiary of CitiCorp. PFS is
>further down the totem pole than SB or Travelers in the CitiCorp
>organization.>

Untrue. Primerica was the parent company prior to the acquistion of Travelers
at which time Primerica changed the corporate name to Travelers Group. After
the acquistion of Citicorp the parents name again changed...this time to
Citigroup. PFS is a subsidiary of the parent.....just as Smith Barney and the
others are. There is no company between PFS and the parent. Read an annual
report for verification.

Also some of what PFS produces in cross-selling opportunities appears on the
affiliates bottom line not PFS's.

> possibly
>even more in face value than all the PFS agents sell combined.>

You are not serious, right?

Robert C. Thomas

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00
to misc-indust...@uunet.uu.net
Robert C. Thomas <ski...@taka.swcp.com> wrote in article
<01bfb76c$be07dac0$010586cc@oemcomputer>...

>
> however, if someone cancels their cash value life
> > policy or lets it lapse, where's the forced savings?
>
> And, the 75% of Primerica agents that cancel their mutual funds? What
> about them? Where's their savings???
>
That should have been Primerica "customers", NOT "agents".

cheers

bob

PaulMaf

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
>From: usm...@aol.com (USMCPFS)
>Date: 5/8/00 10:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20000508133552...@ng-cc1.aol.com>
>

>>What do Smith Barney and Travelers got to do with Primerica?>
>
>They are sister companies.

If you did not notice that is exactly what I said. And the point, which seems
to escape you, is that a PFS agent invoking them, because they are sister
companies is strictly amateurish nonsense for the simple reason that although
they are related, they are completely and legally independent of each other.


>>And remember PFS is a
>>subsidiary of Primerica, which itself is a subsidiary of CitiCorp. PFS is
>>further down the totem pole than SB or Travelers in the CitiCorp
>>organization.>
>
>Untrue. Primerica was the parent company prior to the acquistion of Travelers
>at which time Primerica changed the corporate name to Travelers Group. After
>the acquistion of Citicorp the parents name again changed...this time to
>Citigroup. PFS is a subsidiary of the parent.....just as Smith Barney and the
>others are. There is no company between PFS and the parent. Read an annual
>report for verification.

I have andf I do.

>Also some of what PFS produces in cross-selling opportunities appears on the
>affiliates bottom line not PFS's.

Again, so what? If an independent sales person sells Smith Barney funds, it
shows up on SB's bottom line, not PFs's.

Cross selling related company products, is one of the reasons for all the
mergers that created CitiGroup.

That still changes nothing as far as the poihnt you were trying to make, i.e.
that somehow this makes PFs agents good per se.

>> possibly
>>even more in face value than all the PFS agents sell combined.>

>You are not serious, right?

Very, read CitiGroup's 10K.

SCat999999

unread,
May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
>>term policies do not pay
>>high commissions,
>
>Incorrect. Term pays just as much, if not more, than most other kinds of
>insurance, including cash value. Any FULL TIME agent knows this.

Brent..
Actually he's partially correct. He didn't say high commission rates. Term does
pay lower commission dollars solely because the premiums are lower. It would be
very difficult to survive just selling term insurance due to the low premiums
and non-commissionable policy fees on the real low priced stuff. The sad part
is that he probably didn't know WHY he was half right...lol

Steve,LUTCF

Brent D. Gardner

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Semp,

>I'd disagree. What were the results of these alleged "criminal acts" and
>specifically what were their names?

Disagree all you want. The State of Kansas Insurance Department has sent cease
and desist orders to many, many former PFS/ALW associates, affiliates, or
recent suckers - whatever you want to call them. The fines have been many, and
often sizeable.

I have on tape several pep rallies with multiple violations of the NASD Rules
of Fair Practice -- all of which were forwarded to the District Conduct
Committee. All the dope smokers and drug dealers actually speaking are back to
driving milk trucks and cashiering at the liquor store again as a result of our
sting.

This tape has on it nearly every "twisting" tactic known to man -- and from
what I gather, it's the way ALL PFS/ALW pep rallies are put on. Skip Bell's
experience in Washington shows that as recent as 1999, these "twisting" tactics
are still being taught -- and all one needs to do is check out a message board
or newsgroup to see that graduates of PFS elementary are being taught the same
"twisting" tactics to this day. I'm disgusted with the ignorance they are
taught as a matter of course. There is NO excuse for new agents being taught
to lie and cheat in this millenium -- except pure unadulterated greed without
regard for the consumer. Thank God I don't work the same market!

Anyone who wants this evidence can see my copies in my office.

SCat999999

unread,
May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
>total commissions for a given amount of money in, especially with the 5.5%
>load on the mutual funds is greater than the commissions on a permanent
>policy such as a Variable Universal Life policy, especially when it is set
>up appropriately (below Target).

Bob,
How can you say that an appropriately set up VUL is BELOW target? VUL's work
best when they are at or ABOVE target, not underfunded.

Steve,LUTCF

Robert C. Thomas

unread,
May 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/11/00
to misc-indust...@uunet.uu.net
SCat999999 <scat9...@aol.com> wrote in article
<20000509081758...@ng-fw1.aol.com>...
Not to mention that the kant includes investing the difference and they all
seem to want to ignore the fact that a BTID program pays as much, usually
more, commission than any permanent life instrument.

Ignorance is bliss, except when you push it on others.

cheers

bob

Brent D. Gardner

unread,
May 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/11/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Steve,

>Term does
>pay lower commission dollars solely because the premiums are lower.

I like how Ted puts it: If you have $50 per month to spend on life insurance,
then you have $50 per month to spend. If term pays the same as permanent, then
the commission is the same. Except for the career companies, most term
insurance generally pays as much if not more on all but the smallest policies.

>It would be
>very difficult to survive just selling term insurance due to the low premiums
>and non-commissionable policy fees on the real low priced stuff.

The agents I know who sell term in the middle markets use the second tier
contracts that pay commish on the entire premium. I don't blame them, either.

USMCPFS

unread,
May 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/12/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Brent:

>The State of Kansas Insurance Department has sent cease
>and desist orders to many, many>

I know they have. In fact, they have sent many, many to agents of lots of
companies. You and I once went through this drill using the published complaint
figures for Kansas and two other states. Besides that... nearly everything
you've ever posted (including your tape of your dope smoking former schoolmate)
is extremely dated. I suggested to you years ago to turn in your tapes. We
don't want those guys around. Good job.

Skip Bell related his story as part of a post introducing a website from which
he later backed away from for reasons we all discussed at length. I consider
Skip a professional and never doubted his experience with his friend. Those
things have happened and will happen. But they have happened to many companies
and the results have been well documented.

USMCPFS

unread,
May 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/12/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Paul:

>If you did not notice that is exactly what I said.>

No actually you didn't. You suggested that they were lower on the totem pole.
They are a direct subsidiary.....just as the others.

>And the point, which seems
>to escape you, is that a PFS agent invoking them, because they are sister
>companies is strictly amateurish nonsense for the simple reason that although
>they are related, they are completely and legally independent of each other.>

First, I don't think it's amateurish to mention the affiliation. It's quite
common in the business world. The bigger point, which I think we agree on, is
that it would be illegal for a rep to suggest anything other than that their
company is standing on its own two feet financially.

>I have andf I do.>

I'm not sure what you are saying. If you do, in fact, have the annual report
you will see that your "totem pole" analogy is incorrect. I think you may not
understand that Primerica Corp. was Sandy Weill and his Generals and was PFS's
parent. Now Primerica Corp is CitiGroup.....which is PFS's parent.

>Again, so what? If an independent sales person sells Smith Barney funds, it
>shows up on SB's bottom line, not PFs's>

Absolutely. But an independent agent who sells SB will not have his bottom line
compared to SB's. Frequently, in newsgroups such as this, posters will compare
the bottom lines of PFS and SB. Internally, the relationship is clearly
understood. In recent weeks Sandy and Tom Jones have commented on our
contribution to the overall success.

>That still changes nothing as far as the poihnt you were trying to make, i.e.
>that somehow this makes PFs agents good per se.>

I've made no such points. My comments have always been limited to correcting
inaccurate information. If I ever comment on anything that is my opinion.....I
clearly label it as such.

>Very, read CitiGroup's 10K.>

I do not see where it states Travelers sells more face amount. Could you post
some figures please?

bskversky

unread,
May 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/13/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
So, Semp is over here spreading the PFS gospel. Good to see you here, Semp.


"USMCPFS" <usm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:958200026.26736.0...@news.demon.co.uk...

bskversky

unread,
May 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/13/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Brent, Ron made the $50 comparison, not Ted. And Ron's right too.


"Brent D. Gardner" <gowil...@aol.comrenosux> wrote in message
news:958199883.29555.0...@news.demon.co.uk...

Terry Burnett

unread,
May 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/13/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
USMCPFS <usm...@aol.com> wrote

> Untrue. Primerica was the parent company prior to the acquistion of
Travelers
> at which time Primerica changed the corporate name to Travelers Group.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. From all appearances, it was
Travelers that acquired Primerica. I'm quite sure that their billions of
assets (from selling cash value products) made 20-something-year-old
Primerica look quite small by comparison. The fact that Sandy Weill came
out on top is actually beside the point.

By the way, I would like to commend you on the professional nature of your
posts. Unfortunately, your reluctance to identify yourself affects your
credibility somewhat . . .

TLB


USMCPFS

unread,
May 13, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/13/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org

Brent:

>I like how Ted puts it: If you have $50 per month to spend on life
insurance,
then you have $50 per month to spend.>

Yes. But would you agree that the client might decide to spend $15 or $20/mo
for term insurance and the rest for a mutual fund? It's not always a dollar for
dollar comparison. In those cases where it is I would agree that the term
policy may pay more in commissions.

USMCPFS

unread,
May 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/14/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Ben:

>So, Semp is over here spreading the PFS gospel. Good to see you here, Semp.>

Likewise, Ben. How have you been? How's that grandson?

Actually, I've not spread any gospel over here. I just responded to a couple of
posts I thought were erroneous. Nothing more.

Paul Maffia

unread,
May 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/14/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
"Terry Burnett" <bur...@nospam-lifemarketing.com> writes:

>USMCPFS <usm...@aol.com> wrote
>> Untrue. Primerica was the parent company prior to the acquistion of
>Travelers
>> at which time Primerica changed the corporate name to Travelers Group.

>I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. From all appearances, it was
>Travelers that acquired Primerica. I'm quite sure that their billions of
>assets (from selling cash value products) made 20-something-year-old
>Primerica look quite small by comparison. The fact that Sandy Weill came
>out on top is actually beside the point.

Sorry Terry. Primerica BOUGHT the Travelers, which was in financial
difficulties. After the purchase, the Corporation's name was changed to
Travelers Corp. The Travelers Insurance Company was a subsidiary of
Tavelers Corp (after some reorganization to rationalize the
Corporate structure), The old Primerica became a separate subsidiary.

CitiCorp and Travelers then merged to form CitiGroup.


--
Paul M.


Brent D. Gardner

unread,
May 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/15/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Semp writes:
>Yes. But would you agree that the client might decide to spend $15 or $20/mo
>for term insurance and the rest for a mutual fund? It's not always a dollar
>for
>dollar comparison. In those cases where it is I would agree that the term
>policy may pay more in commissions.

$15 or $20 per month? Although I have to admit I've sold policies for small
monthly premiums before, I don't prospect intentionally in this market. And


since I'm dealing with people who tend to save already, the purpose of our
discussions is to accumulate, create or transfer wealth on a tax advantaged
basis. If a person can only budget $50 per month for both life insurance AND
investments, then they need to start living within their means because the only
people who work full time and cannot save more than that are spending their
money on frivilous things.

I'm sure others may argue, but I've examined way too many situations where it
wasn't a lack of income, but a lack of discipline. People who lack discipline
aren't likely to ever need the products I sell -- namely, permanent life
insurance, disability income, long term care, or nonqualified annuities.

When I'm selling life insurance to a family, and I'm talking about term
insurance, I'm NOT talking about mutual funds -- as that should be a separate
discussion. Protection and investing in that situation should be separate, in
my opinion. People who mix the two at that level are amateurs who use
mythology to cloud the consumer's mind.

SCat999999

unread,
May 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/15/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
> People who lack discipline
>aren't likely to ever need the products I sell -- namely, permanent life
>insurance, disability income, long term care, or nonqualified annuities.

Brent..
I don't think it's a question of NEED. If fact They probably need the products
more. I think if your statement was "People who lack discipline aren't ever
likely to BUY the products I sell...", it would be more accurate.

Steve,LUTCF

tenthlevel

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May 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/15/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org

USMCPFS wrote:
>
> Steve:


>
> >That's the name of the game. Collect some fees,>
>

> What fee's are you referring to? Are you suggesting that the $199.00 is a
> profit center? In many states the prelicensing course and state exam is well in
> excess of $199.00. Our new associates do not pay these fees for licensing.

It is a profit maker since a good number of Primerica's associates never
make it to the exam and do not get a refund after 30 days has passed.


>
> >sell policies to the newbies friends and relatives (while letting him watch
> >as
> >training) and then keep whatever business sticks after the newbie leaves.>
>

> Unfortunately, that is exactly what happens throughout the industry. Steve,


> you are not actually suggesting that most agents make it long term in this
> business, are you? As you and I both know (and have discussed many times) the
> atttrition rate within this industry is staggering.

This is a poor excuse for the indiscriminate hiring practices of the
MLM, Primerica. If agents were serious about their business they would
hire people who were appropriate instead of trying to convince
everything that breathes that they will make 6 figures in two years
time. The real reason for the high attrition rate in Primerica is that
agents are interested in the sales they can get by training a recruit in
the recruit's warm market.

tenthlevel

unread,
May 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/15/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Since you bring up the past of Primerica, here's some tidbits from past
articles on the primerica hero, A.L. Williams:

Consumer Reports July 1986

:reporters attend an A.L. Williams training session at the Howard
Johnson with 200 hopeful
recruits. They come away from this early "opportunity meeting" with the
belief that "Williams agents don't shrink from overstating their case,
under-rating the value of competitive products, and pushing a mediocre
to poor product themselves.... The term policy Williams agents usually
sell is no bargain ... ranked at the
bottom of the term insurance ratings we published last month."

"Williams' agents wrongly focus on the premiums policy holders pay...not
on the policy's cost over time. As we've pointed out, this can be very
misleading, since a policy that has low initial premiums may be quite
expensive over the years."

The Sunday Sun in Georgetown Texas February 1, 1987 reports
"questionable life insurance sales practices by representatives of the
A.L. Williams Company have resulted in an alert memorandum directed to
the secretaries of the Army Navy and Air force." Apparently, the
military would not tolerate A.L. Williams agents who were in the
military committing "unauthorized solicitation on military
installations, coercion by senior military personnel in selling to
junior personnel, use of personal files to gain information for
insurance sales and failure to comply with state regulatory
requirements."


The Sun also reports that two insurance watch dog companies, A.M. Best,
and A.R.M.S, had their eyes on A.L. Williams Co.Arousing their curiosity
was the fact that "most of the computer print-out illustrations used by
A.L. Williams representatives, prepared by the home office of the
company, which displayed figures as to as to illustrated current and
future interest rates on the proposed investments in their annuities and
mutual funds, were not accurate, and the home office ... knew they were
not."

in Business Week, February 15, 1988 where BW refers to Williams as the
"P.T. Barnum of Life
Insurance" and says

"Art Williams doesn't seem to like Business Week anymore. They told the
truth about him....The Coach referred to that particular issue of
Business Week when he said: 'I'd go buy it off the newsstand, and burn
it up'" (p. 24).... [ALW an advocate of book burning?] Press recognizes
that "the problem with decreasing responsibility [Williams justification
for allowing life insurance to lapse at retirement age] is that it falls
apart as most people approach mortality. In reality, as life insurance
owners get into their late 60s or early 70s, the last thing they want to
give up is their life insurance (p. 24)."

October 1988
National Underwriter: Life and Health/Financial Services
The A.L. Williams Company is accused of distributing a booklet
containing

"false and misleading information about life insurance."

The booklet contains 12 misleading and deceptive points which are
misrepresentative and designed to

"induce people to lapse, forfeit or surrender their insurance."

The Insurance Commissioner of California said the violations were
grounds for revocation of Williams' license. The A.L. Williams Co.
issued an internal directive to stop issuing the booklet.

What were these deceptive claims that A.L. Williams Co. agents were
ordered to stop making?

That "the new Universal Life products are the latest sham." Deemed
defamatory and untrue.
that cash value is "asking the insured to give [the company] extra money
so he can give it back to the insured
in the future."

comparing values of cash value policies to investment vehicles: i.e.
comparing cash values in a life policy to a mutual fund--deceptive.

"you lose your cash values if you die" -- deemed false and misleading it
is "false and misleading ... to condemn all agents who have sold cash
value policies." [Not to mention defamatory].
false and misleading to maintain that "insurance companies loan policy
holders their own money...."
to maintain that cash value policies cost 4 to 5 times as much as term
policies is false and misleading "in that
...term policy premiums increase ... and usually exceed the premium on
cash value policies."

"no person could honestly sell a cash value policy to a family if his
commissions were not the determining
factor" deemed false and misleading as it suggests "that under no
circumstances would a cash value policy be
a better alternative to term...."

"there are many hidden charges in a Universal Life contract" deemed
false and misleading.

the booklet refers to a study by A.M. Best that shows cost per thousand
of various policies. "Best never
prepared a study that shows cost per thousand."

August, 1990
Business Week
"The insurance mogul steps down in the face of an FBI inquiry." This is
where Primerica and Sandy Weill step in. According to Business Week,
Primerica Corp., headed by Sandy Weill already owns a majority stake in
A.L. Williams, purchased through a complicated stock swap in 1988. The
other 30% was bought in November, 1989, again paid for in stock. "After
the buyout, Williams's official title was reduced to "sales consultant."

The controversy which led to the enquiry may have been, according to
Business Week, "that Williams saddled a competitors competitor with
1000s of phony insurance policies." That competitor was Randy Stelk.

Randy Stelk was fired by Williams and the two battled it out in
litigation for two years. Williams vowed to destroy Stelk and allegedly
sent a small army of phony agents over to Stelk's company to write about
$200,000 in bogus policies, collect the commissions and run, leaving
Stelk broke. Are these not the kind of tactics employed by major
destructive cults like Scientology?


http://members.home.net/fairbusiness/history.htm


USMCPFS wrote:
>
> Brent:
>
> > Instead, the rely on
> >"twisting" (a criminal act) and material misrepresentations and misleading
> >double talk taught by people who have made their living by committing
> >criminal
> >acts.>
>

Terry Burnett

unread,
May 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/15/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Paul Maffia <pau...@eskimo.com> wrote

> Sorry Terry. Primerica BOUGHT the Travelers, which was in financial
> difficulties.

Really? Well, if that's true, then I stand corrected. I haven't looked at
any CitiGroup annual reports, but maybe I should. :)

> CitiCorp and Travelers then merged to form CitiGroup.

Right. I knew about that. I also understand that CitiGroup has two CEO's,
Sandy Weill and the CitiCorp guy.


Thanks, Paul -- and my apologies to USMCPFS, whoever he is . . .

Terry


USMCPFS

unread,
May 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/15/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Brent:

>$15 or $20 per month? Although I have to admit I've sold policies for small
monthly premiums before, I don't prospect intentionally in this market>

You might have missed my point. You mentioned Ted's example of $50/month for a
CV policy and rightfully suggested that the same $50/mo for term might pay
higher commissions. I only used that example and suggested that an equal amount
of term might be purchased for less money with the remaining dollars invested
in an IRA. This alternative may actually pay less commissions on the same $50
monthly outlay.

>wasn't a lack of income, but a lack of discipline.>

For the most part I agree although I have certainly seen exceptions.

>When I'm selling life insurance to a family, and I'm talking about term
insurance, I'm NOT talking about mutual funds -- as that should be a separate
discussion.>

I agree. The mutual fund investment is always made during a subsequent
appointment. When I'm talking long-term investing I want that to be the total
focus of that discussion.

>People who mix the two at that level are amateurs who use
mythology to cloud the consumer's mind.>

I don't see it that way. I see them as poor salespersons who are likely to
experience problems with every blip in the market because their clients were
not focused. However, I cannot remember an example of explaining term insurance
where it was not asked where the "savings" is going to come from. I don't think
it requires any "mythology" to explain alternatives such as IRA's exist. But I
personally think it is imperative that the client understands we need to get
back together to discuss it in detail. I also believe that in some states it is
actually mandated that the sales be completed separately.


tenthlevel

unread,
May 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/15/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
Chris Hesenflow wrote:
>
> If you are seeking a wide opinion on Primerica, okay, here's mine. I have
> a hard time with some of the folks who post in this group that are so
> negative about Primerica. Primerica is the #1 term insurance company in the

> country, and what is wrong with term, the vast majority of
> (objective)financial experts agree that for most, term is the way to go.


There are many problems with these statements. Like most MLMs, the
company does well while the majority of the agents do not. The average
rep. income in Primerica is very low, but there are so many of them
that the company does well.

Also, Primerica's sales approach is to compare term to whole life using
an illustration they call Plan A, Plan B, and then attempt to replace
the client's whole life policy. They look at four points only in this
deceptive comparison:

1. the rate of return of a whole life policy in the first 2 to 4 years
(0%) compared to 12% return.

2. the rate of return after the policy interest kicks in (4-5%)
compared to an ongoing 12% rate of return.

3. I forget number 3: was it cost / $1000 of coverage?

4. they tell the client that the whole life company keeps their
"investment" if they die

In any event, this presentation does not comapre term to term or
mention that Primerica's term is very high-priced compared to other term
in the market. It is also very suggestive and misleading in the
suggestion that the client will get a steady 12% return.

>
> How about Smith Barney, the #2 brokerage firm in the US, been around for
> ages, brokered some of the largest mergers in recent history.

Again, this does not speak to the experience of the agents, whose
annual average income is quite low, under $10,000 / year.

>
> The Travelers companies, simple interest loans, variable annuities.

Travelers sells evil whole life don't they? Aren't they then in direct
competition with Primerica?


>
> If you are already in sales, hey that's great, you would probably do
> terrific as a Primerica rep (or anywhere else). And as far as your market,
> I don't believe Primerica even targets business as their market, it is
> primarily middle class America.


Which helps to explain the difficulty with keeping reps and paying them
a viable income. You have to make a lot of sales when the bulk of your
sales are tiny little investments and policies. Again, this help
explain why the company does well and the agents don't.

>
> And if you are interested in just collecting a paycheck, stay with your
> current position, but do you have the opportunity to own a franchise in your
> current company? Or could you decide to sell your book of business after 10
> years or so?

This is totally deceptive nonsense. Primerica is not a franchise, it
is an MLM. The Primerica Basic Agreement states that the rep. owns
neither the clients he secures or the people he recruits. And your
insinuation that their is something wrong in collecting a paycheck is a
ludicrous attempt to put down working people.

> Also, if you are interested in just being an insurance agent, I don't

> believe that Primerica would be the place to be, term policies do not pay
> high commissions, however, if you are interested in developing a business of


> your own, it might be for you.

This means developing a "downline" using the Amway model of MLM
business. Eventually, you will be able to make money from your
downline by selling them tickets to rah rah events and earn commissions
on Voicetel and other products you sell to your downline, like in
Amway. This is not a business of your own in the true sense of it. As
far as I know from viewing the Basic Agreement, Primerica owns the
clients and the recruits.


But you must go beyond a simple insurance
> license. You must get Series 6, 63 and 26 licenses for mutual funds,

> something most "insurance" agents cannot provide their clients, so.. their


> answer to everything from retirement to college funding tends to be cash

> value life insurance. The argument is that it is "forced savings", which I
> agree most people do need, however, if someone cancels their cash value life
> policy or lets it lapse, where's the forced savings? You are probably


> better off buying an insurance policy while you need it, then setting up
> your mutual funds for retirement or whatever, at the same time on an

> automatic draft using the dollar cost averaging method. Your investments


> would grow much faster if invested directly in a fund than inside an
> insurance policy, wouldn't you agree?


There's that nasty "wouldn't you agree?" statement. Ugh! That sends
shivers down my spine. Every Primerica rep is taught to say "wouldn't
you agree?? after making some suggestive argument in favor of their
products. The Primerica website states that PFAs are NOT planners, NOT
advisors, and NOT specialists in ANY area of finances, as goes so far
as to state that if you need planning, advising, or specialty services,
you should seek help from a LICENSED planner, which you are not, even
though you are obviously engaged in these activities. I think people
should follow the advice Primerica gives at www.pfsnet.com (see
Important disclosures) and seek out licensed professionals to advise
them, wouldn't YOU agree?
>
> I don't want to get into a term vs. cv issue, however, Primerica does bring


> much to the table in terms of a full package of products.

Even though that is what you do.

There are
> probably those unprofessional people in Primerica, however, wherever you go,
> there are unprofessional people, just read the papers.

As the Primerica website states, there are NO professional planners or
advisors in Primerica, there are only salespeople.


>
> In addition, most folks don't know where to save money, most don't know how
> to accelerate debt, most people don't understand their life insurance
> policy, because it's not in the respective industries best interest to
> explain it to them.

But it is in Primerica's best interest to replace your policies with
term, whether or not it is in the client's best interest to do so.

>
> I would personally investigate before making a final decision, talk to


> someone who has actually done well in Primerica, but also talk to someone
> who failed, get both ends of the scale to find out what type of motivation
> you have and don't rely on a people who post to a newsgroup.

There is some good advice: especially don't rely on people who post to
a newsgroup. LOL!

>
> best of luck to you whatever you decide.
>

> Chris


Bottom line: Primerica is an MLM like Amway. It's agents are do not
know the business they are in, let alone understand their competitors.
They are given information on a need to know basis and only learn the
truth of what each level of the business involves when they actually
reach that level. Sio someone who has not reached RVP does not know
that an RVP makes a good chunk of his money by selling products to his
own downline of agents. Its a terrible business to be in. I highly
discourage everyone from being involved with this particular MLM
company.

Paul McDonald

unread,
May 18, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/18/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org

Terry Burnett wrote in message
<958309556.22613.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...

>USMCPFS <usm...@aol.com> wrote
>> Untrue. Primerica was the parent company prior to the acquistion of
>Travelers
>> at which time Primerica changed the corporate name to Travelers Group.
>
>I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. From all appearances, it was
>Travelers that acquired Primerica. I'm quite sure that their billions of
>assets (from selling cash value products) made 20-something-year-old
>Primerica look quite small by comparison. The fact that Sandy Weill came
>out on top is actually beside the point.
>


Actually, Primerica owned about 25% of Travelers Insurance stock back in
1993 or so, just after Traveler's de-mutilated. If you look through the
headlines of all the newspapers, they say things like "Primerica bought the
remaining stock in Travelers that it didn't already own." Further, the
shareholders of Travelers had to approve the buyout price.

Anyone who thinks Travelers bought Primerica is obviously someone who
derives great fear from a company like Primerica (now Citigroup) having
power and perhaps maybe (just maybe) being right about a thing or two.

Paul Maffia

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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"Paul McDonald" <paul_m...@ameritech.net> writes:

>Actually, Primerica owned about 25% of Travelers Insurance stock back in
>1993 or so, just after Traveler's de-mutilated. If you look through the
>headlines of all the newspapers, they say things like "Primerica bought the
>remaining stock in Travelers that it didn't already own." Further, the
>shareholders of Travelers had to approve the buyout price.

"De-mutilated"?

>Anyone who thinks Travelers bought Primerica is obviously someone who
>derives great fear from a company like Primerica (now Citigroup) having
>power and perhaps maybe (just maybe) being right about a thing or two.

Utter nonsense. Someone who thinks Travelers bought Primerica is simply
mistaken.

But someone who thinks that someone who is mistaken about history and from
that jumps to the moronic conclusion that somehow that means they are
afraid of a Company like Primerica having power, etc. merely proves, since
they are a Primerica Rep, that if they are representative of the abilities
of those reps in general, that no one has anything to fear from that
company at all.

--
Paul M.


USMCPFS

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Terry:

>- and my apologies to USMCPFS,>

No need at all to apologize although I appreciate your honesty. Sometimes folks
disagree as to the facts and other times disagree as a matter of opinion. In
newsgroups the lines often get blurred.

Thanks again.

USMCPFS

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Tenth:

>associates never
make it to the exam and do not get a refund after 30 days has passed.>

The same can be said industrywide. In fact, where I live the prelicensing
course and exam fees are well above $199. Many folks industrywide either never
take the exam, fail the exam or pass the exam but wash out in less than 2
years. They receive no refunds either. The attrition rate in this industry is
staggering. Very few folks make it long term.


Brent D. Gardner

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Tenthlevel,

Excellent post!

Keep up the good work.

USMCPFS

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Tenth:

<tidbits>

I understand the difference between a journalist and a regulator. I also
understand the difference between a warning and a multibillion dollar
settlement and/or a multimillion dollar fine. Many of us (like Brent) keep
files on such things. I have all those articles and many more. Both positive


and negative. You might check out our current relationship with the Armed
Forces. This obviously was very important to me as I was a former career Marine
Officer. Also check out A. M Best's comments in their latest press release
concerning us.

A.R.M.S. was an "insurance watch dog Company" ? Please, sir.

This company was far from perfect 20 years ago and still is not perfect today
but we are proud of our current standing with all regulatory agencies. They
appear to be quite satisfied with us. We have responded positively to any and
all regulatory directives. Many companies have not as evidenced by the well
documented settlements and fines. I will leave them nameless to protect those
good agents from those firms who did not participate in the shenanigans.

When you charge "criminal acts" I ask what were the results of the judicial
proceedings. Who was convicted or fined? How much?

tenthlevel

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Paul McDonald wrote:
>
> Terry Burnett wrote in message
> <958309556.22613.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> >USMCPFS <usm...@aol.com> wrote
> >> Untrue. Primerica was the parent company prior to the acquistion of
> >Travelers
> >> at which time Primerica changed the corporate name to Travelers Group.
> >
> >I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. From all appearances, it was
> >Travelers that acquired Primerica. I'm quite sure that their billions of
> >assets (from selling cash value products) made 20-something-year-old
> >Primerica look quite small by comparison. The fact that Sandy Weill came
> >out on top is actually beside the point.
> >
>

> Actually, Primerica owned about 25% of Travelers Insurance stock back in
> 1993 or so, just after Traveler's de-mutilated. If you look through the
> headlines of all the newspapers, they say things like "Primerica bought the
> remaining stock in Travelers that it didn't already own." Further, the
> shareholders of Travelers had to approve the buyout price.
>

> Anyone who thinks Travelers bought Primerica is obviously someone who
> derives great fear from a company like Primerica (now Citigroup) having
> power and perhaps maybe (just maybe) being right about a thing or two.


Primerica is now Citigroup? I don't think so.

USMCPFS

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
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Tenth:

> Eventually, you will be able to make money from your

downline by selling them tickets to rah rah events and earn commissionon
Voicetel>

Untrue. You are only allowed to break even on events such as seminars. Report
all violators.

There are no commissions on VoiceTel. I have a ton of folks on it and use it
everyday. I've never received a cent in commissions. You could interview every
ex-RVP and above and never find ONE who would collaborate your claim. You are
probably confused for two reasons. (1) The Amway model. There is serious
controversy with their model concerning what has become known as "tool" money.
This is not allowed with us and this includes VoiceTel. (2) VoiceTel is
actually a business opportunity itself. However, their contract with us is with
the company not with RVP's. Read their website just to see how they sell their
product and compare it to what we pay. Our company negotiated a FLAT monthly
fee for our reps nationwide.

Terry Burnett

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
tenthlevel <tenth...@nospam.com> wrote

> Travelers sells evil whole life don't they? Aren't they then in direct
> competition with Primerica?

I've mentioned this exact thing several times in this group, but it usually
falls on deaf ears among PFS people. They simply refuse to acknowledge
this huge contradiction in marketing philosophies.

Most of them usually respond by distancing themselves from Travelers, and by
downplaying its significance in the life industry. Sorry, folks, but that
doesn't work.

TLB


Paul Maffia

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May 19, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/19/00
to misc-indust...@moderators.isc.org
"Terry Burnett" <bur...@nospam-lifemarketing.com> writes:


>Right. I knew about that. I also understand that CitiGroup has two CEO's,
>Sandy Weill and the CitiCorp guy.

Well, yes and no. At the moment that is still true but Reed has announced
his resignation, effective sometime this summer, if I remember correctly.
He lost out to Sandy in an internal struggle. The Board backed Sandy and
Reed said bye bye.

--
Paul M.


Anthony F. Nelson

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May 20, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/20/00