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Jim Dumas

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May 21, 2002, 2:46:50 PM5/21/02
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All:

There is a board meeting for DIF next month. We have some money but it's not
enough to do much. So I'm thinking about setting up a newsletter with

--
Jim Dumas, j-d...@mindspring.com (remove dontSPAMME)
T1 4/86, background retinopathy, rarely HG: <1/mo.
lispro+R+U+NPH daily, moderate exercise, <6% HbA1c typ.

Jim Dumas

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May 21, 2002, 3:12:46 PM5/21/02
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Jim Dumas wrote:
>
> All:
>
> There is a board meeting for DIF next month. We have some money but it's not
> enough to do much. So I'm thinking about setting up a newsletter with

Sorry, didn't finish, got distracted in mid-thought-stream and hit the wrong
buttons.

But I'm a cyclist and I get a monthly newsletter for $15/year. We have about
400 members in this bicycling group and the newsletter is about 6 pages of
info on events each month. So this sets a bar.

So I'm thinking about volunteering to be the editor and write an article on
mathematical modelling useful for insulin dosing. I'll detail my current
insulin transport model, the feedback loop for dosing adjustments, how to
calibrate it to a specific person, how to use it in the field, future
directions, etc. But no code as the individual must take responsibility for
the implementation, (for legal reasons, you did it and I didn't tell you an
exact dose to take). I'll discuss the Glucose Transform and applications,
pitfalls, glucose meters that corrupt the method and give bad data, etc.
I'll also take a look at different assays useful to those exercise nuts like
myself.

Since I'll be the editor, I'll strike a balance between the beef insulin
arguments and synthetics that I use. It will only be available in paper and
sent out of Boston where I live. I'll attempt to include exercise
information for T2s as well. The idea is to get down to where the rubber
meets the road.

So this is just a poll to see if anybody is interested. Email me in private
if you like: du...@mindspring.com j-d...@mindspring.com
jbd...@mindspring.com or j_d...@mindspring.com all work.

The final goal is to set up that watch-dog organization in Washington, D.C.,
for all DMs.

I realize many of you don't care, but those who do please post your ideas.

Thanks,

Jim Dumas

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May 21, 2002, 6:34:14 PM5/21/02
to
Gary Ennis wrote:

>
> On Sun, 21 May 3902 15:12:46, Jim Dumas
> <j-d...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > The final goal is to set up that watch-dog organization in Washington, D.C.,
> > for all DMs.
>
> If this is your final goal, get rid of your president Dave Groves. He
> really is an embarrassment to the rest of us diabetics.

> >
> > I realize many of you don't care, but those who do please post your ideas.
>
> I do care very much, that is why I am responding. You know as well as
> I do, Groves has caused far more harm than good. I don't want him
> representing me in any way shape or form.

I agree that Groves is not a good leader for an organization. He does not
know how to work with people and tends to upset those around him. But like
Bruce Beale of the IDDT, he has knowledge of the old therapies and should be
given a voice to contrast these methods. But I see him extremely busy with
his web site and beef insulin issues. So I'll try to expand the DIF agenda
into other areas that will be useful to everybody. Like the health-care cost
issues that we DMs need to voice in our political system. We can't expect
the ADA to represent us on the cost issues of DM therapies. So we must have
our own voice within our political system, to express our views for a new
health-care system.

Since Groves will spin off into his non-mainstream direction, we should not
get too wrapped around the handle by his emotional arguments. But we should
listen and make our own decisions. He will be forced by majority to
conform. But just don't give him the microphone, of course. He is slowing
down these days and really needs to focus on his health if he plans to be
around to see DIF become a strong organization.

So how can DIF appeal to mainstream DMs. Well, we have Joan Hoover on the
board of directors as well. She lives in the Washington, DC, area and was a
past board member, (if I remember correctly), of the ADA. Her daughter
passed away 2 years ago from complications caused by T1. She is quite an
activist and would be a powerful voice in politics for us DMs. And she lives
right there so costs would be low: just her time.

My expertise is math and modelling. It turns out that n=1 is all that is
necessary to establish a math model (ask any physiologist, they will agree).
If the parameters are flexible in the model to change it for others, and it
is the simplist possible, then it will be applicable to a large group, (but
probably not everybody, to be realistic). So let's put the math out to the
people who need it, (this was Dr Black's [was of the Joslin Clinic in Boston]
idea a decade ago, personal conversation with him, concerning the Glucoject
program written at the NIH by Dr Berger under Dr Rodbard's supervision, this
was the foundation for the AIDA program of Dr Lehmann et al., I have a copy
on an old 5.25" DOS floppy, only 60 copies were sent out to MDs around the
world, quite disappointing in medicine's interest), and see what happens.

So what can DIF offer the DM public. Ideas that medicine may not be able to
recommend in this present legal environment. Since we're not docs, we can
get away with ignorance and if you sue us, there's no money for an award. So
use the ideas at your own risk. But you all do that anyway, right here.

I had one previous Josin Clinic Doc tell me "I prescribe insulin to you but
it's your responsibility to dose correctly." He's right. There is no way
random exercise intervals and intensities, that I always do (if I feel good,
I keep going), can be accounted for by the MD, with varible insulin
sensitivity from this exercise. The MD is not there watching you 24/7.

So we must do it ourselves with all the tools available. My contribution to
the DIF effort will be editing/balancing and dosing math models that MDs,
Lilly/Novo or the ADA's Diabetes/Diabetes Care/Forecast will not touch.
Since DIF has many voices that can't be squelched, (it's a committee, so
everybody's got one), the DM public must filter the information and decide
for themselves. It's politics within the DM community and the DM voter must
decide.

You're watching the birth of a DM run organization, don't be shy,

willbill

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May 21, 2002, 9:40:59 PM5/21/02
to
5/21/2002 15:12:46 -0400, Jim Dumas <j-d...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com> wrote:

> There is a board meeting for DIF next month...

> So I'm thinking about volunteering to be the editor and write

> an article on mathematical modelling useful for insulin dosing...

> Since I'll be the editor, I'll strike a balance between
> the beef insulin arguments and synthetics that I use.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


you've never even used beef insulin, yet you're
gonna write about it???

jimmy, you are *the* complete sky blue dreamer
<saddly shaking head>


> I'll attempt to include exercise information for T2s as well.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> The final goal is to set up that watch-dog organization
> in Washington, D.C., for all DMs.

^^^^^^^^^^^


i suggest that DIF forget about including t2's

if you include the t2's in DIF, you run the real
risk that your minority focus (i.e. t1 issues)
will soon be lost

t2's are the HUGE majority (well over 90+%).
big pharma LOVES t2's coz that's where the
bloody money is at. which means that the t2's
will generally have plenty of alternatives
provided by big pharma and the FDA weasels

it's the small t1 community that won't be
offered enough alternatives. that is where
DIF should focus


>
> I realize many of you don't care,
> but those who do please post your ideas.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


see above. :)


bill t1 since '57, ex 8-yr pumper, beef-L 1x, simple MDI

Jim Dumas

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May 21, 2002, 9:57:11 PM5/21/02
to
Gary Ennis wrote:

>
> On Sun, 21 May 3902 18:34:14, Jim Dumas
> <j-d...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Gary Ennis wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sun, 21 May 3902 15:12:46, Jim Dumas
> > > <j-d...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The final goal is to set up that watch-dog organization in Washington, D.C.,
> > > > for all DMs.
> > >
> > > If this is your final goal, get rid of your president Dave Groves. He
> > > really is an embarrassment to the rest of us diabetics.
> > > >
> > > > I realize many of you don't care, but those who do please post your ideas.
> > >
> > > I do care very much, that is why I am responding. You know as well as
> > > I do, Groves has caused far more harm than good. I don't want him
> > > representing me in any way shape or form.
> >
> > I agree that Groves is not a good leader for an organization. He does not
> > know how to work with people and tends to upset those around him.
>
> He is also IMO a crack pot. Here is just one of many of his public
> statements I just randomly grabbed:
>
> "That would leave me only the Inspector General or the Justice
> Department to force the FDA to stop deliberately killing diabetics."
>
> This is someone you professionally want to be associated with?

I'm nonjudgmental. Not even with you.


> > But like
> > Bruce Beale of the IDDT, he has knowledge of the old therapies and should be
> > given a voice to contrast these methods.
>

> A voice, he is a PR time bomb, who are you kidding?

But he has a right to his opinions. Just like you do. He can be creative
with the right environment and he may see things you don't. So you can't
discount anybody's viewpoint, not even Groves'.


> >But I see him extremely busy with
> > his web site and beef insulin issues.
>
>

> As long as you have Grove at the helm, or even on the same boat, you
> will find much opposition.

Groves is not controlling the organization. The orders come from the CEO,
Bob Blumenthal, semi-retired UW professor in Seattle, WA. This is were DIF
is incorporated as a nonprofit organization with tax exempt status as of May
2001 or so. Just because Groves is the squeaky wheel in DIF, doesn't mean he
controls the organization. He has no control over the money. The CEO, Bob
Blumenthal, does, as he has made the largest contributation to date and has
the most to loose. He is a T1 that had bad experiences with human synthetics
and went back to beef insulin.


> >So I'll try to expand the DIF agenda
> > into other areas that will be useful to everybody. Like the health-care cost
> > issues that we DMs need to voice in our political system. We can't expect
> > the ADA to represent us on the cost issues of DM therapies. So we must have
> > our own voice within our political system, to express our views for a new
> > health-care system.
>

> And who do you have qualified to take on these tasks?


>
> >
> > Since Groves will spin off into his non-mainstream direction, we should not
> > get too wrapped around the handle by his emotional arguments. But we should
> > listen and make our own decisions. He will be forced by majority to
> > conform. But just don't give him the microphone, of course. He is slowing
> > down these days and really needs to focus on his health if he plans to be
> > around to see DIF become a strong organization.
>

> See above.


> >
> > So how can DIF appeal to mainstream DMs. Well, we have Joan Hoover on the
> > board of directors as well. She lives in the Washington, DC, area and was a
> > past board member, (if I remember correctly), of the ADA. Her daughter
> > passed away 2 years ago from complications caused by T1. She is quite an
> > activist and would be a powerful voice in politics for us DMs. And she lives
> > right there so costs would be low: just her time.
> >
> > My expertise is math and modelling. It turns out that n=1 is all that is
> > necessary to establish a math model (ask any physiologist, they will agree).
> > If the parameters are flexible in the model to change it for others, and it
> > is the simplist possible, then it will be applicable to a large group, (but
> > probably not everybody, to be realistic). So let's put the math out to the
> > people who need it, (this was Dr Black's [was of the Joslin Clinic in Boston]
> > idea a decade ago, personal conversation with him, concerning the Glucoject
> > program written at the NIH by Dr Berger under Dr Rodbard's supervision, this
> > was the foundation for the AIDA program of Dr Lehmann et al., I have a copy
> > on an old 5.25" DOS floppy, only 60 copies were sent out to MDs around the
> > world, quite disappointing in medicine's interest), and see what happens.
>

> Realistically Jim, I don't think your name throws any weight in the
> medical field.

You are correct. I'm an engineer that enjoys math and software (OSes in
particular). But that's the beauty of it. I'm not an expert so you must
decide if you can use the ideas or not. The math is based on Bergman's 23+
year old Minimal Model, (his 1997 dual glucose compartment model can not be
used for finger stick assays since you can't assay BG in the second
compartment [ref: Reassessment of glucose effectiveness and insulin
sensitivity from the minimal model analysis; Ni, Ader and Bergman; Diabetes
v46 #11 Nov 1997, pp 1813-21], quite interesting and let's discuss it when
you get a chance), that is well established in medicine for T2s. So I don't
need to be a medical expert. But I do need to understand the math as it is
applied to physiology. (So read the above reference and quiz me at your
leisure.) You'll also get all the references in the articles and you can do
the research yourself, if you like. (Admittedly, these math models are very
abstract and often not directly interpreted in strict physiological terms.
But they are still useful.)

> >
> > So what can DIF offer the DM public.
>

> Other than Joan (and I personally am not sure how she could handle
> herself in this type of organization), what other credible expertise
> does DIF have?

The treasurer worked for the Red Cross and the US Gov't. He has "tickets" to
ride the subway under the Capitol, as an example. He's nonDM like Joan is.
They are the only two nonDMs in the organization.


> >Ideas that medicine may not be able to
> > recommend in this present legal environment.
>

> How many attorneys / legal advisors do you have on board?

None. We have no money to protect. But if I publish something, I'll know
how to win an argument long before it hits the public. The articles will be
designed to give other DMs ideas. How the ideas are used is the
responsibility of the reader. If we're lucky, the DM kids will live long and
become applied physicists, as this will spark an interest in math and
science.


> >Since we're not docs, we can
> > get away with ignorance and if you sue us, there's no money for an award.
>

> Great selling point.

Thanks. Nothing from nothing is still nothing. But ideas are powerful.


> >So
> > use the ideas at your own risk. But you all do that anyway, right here.
>

> But this is NOT a lobbying or "watch dog" group, this is a news group.


> >
> > I had one previous Josin Clinic Doc tell me "I prescribe insulin to you but
> > it's your responsibility to dose correctly." He's right. There is no way
> > random exercise intervals and intensities, that I always do (if I feel good,
> > I keep going), can be accounted for by the MD, with varible insulin
> > sensitivity from this exercise. The MD is not there watching you 24/7.
> >
> > So we must do it ourselves with all the tools available. My contribution to
> > the DIF effort will be editing/balancing and dosing math models that MDs,
> > Lilly/Novo or the ADA's Diabetes/Diabetes Care/Forecast will not touch.
>

> And you will do this based on models you build with your home test
> kits and your own body? Not much of a test group Jim.

The models are based on those published by physiologists. These are the real
math wizards in the medical community. So you can't expect to find math
modelling in Diabetes Care for clinical use, as the clinician is not
typically interested in the math; and, rarely gets dosed in differential
equations, the heart of any math model. The Am J Physiology is the best
source of cutting edge models, then the ADA Diabetes journal comes in
second. Since your BG meter becomes part of the feedback loop, all DMs are
forced to arrive at some model for dosing (exercise for T2s) purposes based
on their home testing. You do it yourself without thinking about it. So
let's refine and quantitatively identify the salient features of the method
for general use with our cheap meters. It will keep health-care costs down
if we do it right (and, more importantly, improve our quality of life).

>
>
> > Since DIF has many voices that can't be squelched, (it's a committee, so
> > everybody's got one), the DM public must filter the information and decide
> > for themselves. It's politics within the DM community and the DM voter must
> > decide.
>

> You are correct, it is politics and DIF has made far to many political
> mistakes to be taken as a credible, mainstream diabetic force.

Made to many political mistakes in your opinion. Be open-minded and give it
time. We are still trying to get through the egg shell and spread our wings.

> >
> > You're watching the birth of a DM run organization, don't be shy,
>

> I am anything but shy! I think you need to take several steps back
> and rethink this one Jim.

I realize you aren't shy. But you are the vehicle and I was really talking
to the public.

You're quite helpful, thanks,

Jim Dumas

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May 21, 2002, 11:29:34 PM5/21/02
to
willbill wrote:
>
> 5/21/2002 15:12:46 -0400, Jim Dumas <j-d...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > There is a board meeting for DIF next month...
>
> > So I'm thinking about volunteering to be the editor and write
> > an article on mathematical modelling useful for insulin dosing...
>
> > Since I'll be the editor, I'll strike a balance between
> > the beef insulin arguments and synthetics that I use.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> you've never even used beef insulin, yet you're
> gonna write about it???

Hi Bill,

I admit I've never used beef or pork insulins. But the beef insulin
arguments I'm making reference to, are the standard Dave Groves litany of the
saints personal history of why beef is better. This will chase people away
and be unproductive. But some compare/contrast, as to why some people think
their lifestyles are better with beef or pork insulins is useful. I would
not be writing about beef or pork, as I've never used them. But I can still
be the gate keeper to make sure the information is balanced and useful. But
I'd accept a guest article from you, (if you stay away from that 96 hour
number! Hmmm. If your reference says 96 hours, then I'll accept that
opinion, and you'll force me to read the reference to review the methods of
the measurement.), if you'd like to write one on your experiences using beef
insulin.


> jimmy, you are *the* complete sky blue dreamer
> <saddly shaking head>
>
> > I'll attempt to include exercise information for T2s as well.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well, you never know until you try. So blue sky dreamer is a starting point.

This T1-T2 conflict is not in the bylaws of DIF. They are written for DMs to
be the majority without specifying the mix of T2s versus T1s. I made sure of
that when we wrote the bylaws two years ago. So T2s could become the
majority of DIF if that is the vote. This could be a flaw in the bylaws, but
I think we all can work together and focus on the common issues. So, for
example, let's see what happens to ketones and triglycerides, with the
Bioscanner 2000 meter, with exercising T2s as well. Could there be
similarities where the T1 will dose to compensate when the T2 will change
diet to compensate? So I think we should include everybody just like we do
here in this news group.

>
> > The final goal is to set up that watch-dog organization
> > in Washington, D.C., for all DMs.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> i suggest that DIF forget about including t2's
>
> if you include the t2's in DIF, you run the real
> risk that your minority focus (i.e. t1 issues)
> will soon be lost
>
> t2's are the HUGE majority (well over 90+%).
> big pharma LOVES t2's coz that's where the
> bloody money is at. which means that the t2's
> will generally have plenty of alternatives
> provided by big pharma and the FDA weasels
>
> it's the small t1 community that won't be
> offered enough alternatives. that is where
> DIF should focus

The organization should help everybody, as we're all collectively DMs. This
is even more important with the over-weight kids today. They will be the T2s
of tomorrow and we T1s need to learn to work with them, as our destiny rides
on their shoulders. So we need to stay together and T1s really need the T2s
to make any progress in our voter oriented political system. Divided we'll
fall.


> > I realize many of you don't care,
> > but those who do please post your ideas.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> see above. :)

Thanks! The expanded goals I'll propose are:

1) The watch-dog work focused on costs of meds: T2 and T1.
2) OTC clinical trials to prevent complications: T2 and T1.
3) Newsletter with progress reports, math models, exercise effects.
4) How to include other countries as member co-groups within DIF.
(We have not addressed this issue at all.)
5) Any information you all think is useful: GDM issues, as an example.
(But I won't write the article on this topic either.)

We're just scratching the surface and let's keep all the doors open,

Jim Dumas

unread,
May 22, 2002, 12:30:05 AM5/22/02
to
Gary Ennis wrote:

> You know Jim, the longer you defend Grove's association with this
> group, the more I question your motives.

I used to fight with Groves quite a lot. I don't bother much these days
unless the issue is important. Like the not excluding T2s. I made the
argument that we needed to work together and if DIF were to focus only on
T1s, we would have little political leverage via votes to sway congressmen.
Groves started this ball rolling because he needed support. He asked me for
help. I decided to help him. If this is a poor motive, then point me in the
right direction SVP.

But now that DIF exists, let's shape it for general use by all DMs. If you
want this organization to fail, just say so and I'll accept you're opinions
without arguments.


> > > >So I'll try to expand the DIF agenda
> > > > into other areas that will be useful to everybody. Like the health-care cost
> > > > issues that we DMs need to voice in our political system. We can't expect
> > > > the ADA to represent us on the cost issues of DM therapies. So we must have
> > > > our own voice within our political system, to express our views for a new
> > > > health-care system.
> > >
> > > And who do you have qualified to take on these tasks?
>

> You did not answer this question Jim?

What are the qualifications required to be a voter in th US? You are
qualified to handle these issues, as an example. So I could do it as a
registered voter.

We all are qualified to go see our senators and congressmen. Right? So
everybody on the board is qualified. But we could always use a good
specialist's insight, like that of Ted Rosenberg. Do you have any specific
job description with qualifications in mind. If so, please post.

>
> <even more stuff snipped>
>

Hmmm. I heard that from you before. What else is new?

> > >
> > > Realistically Jim, I don't think your name throws any weight in the
> > > medical field.
> >
> > You are correct. I'm an engineer that enjoys math and software (OSes in
> > particular). But that's the beauty of it. I'm not an expert so you must
> > decide if you can use the ideas or not.
>

> We are dealing with potentially life and death decisions here Jim.....
> This sounds much like the "snake oil" salesmen that visit here from
> time to time.....


>
> >The math is based on Bergman's 23+
> > year old Minimal Model, (his 1997 dual glucose compartment model can not be
> > used for finger stick assays since you can't assay BG in the second
> > compartment [ref: Reassessment of glucose effectiveness and insulin
> > sensitivity from the minimal model analysis; Ni, Ader and Bergman; Diabetes
> > v46 #11 Nov 1997, pp 1813-21], quite interesting and let's discuss it when
> > you get a chance), that is well established in medicine for T2s. So I don't
> > need to be a medical expert. But I do need to understand the math as it is
> > applied to physiology. (So read the above reference and quiz me at your
> > leisure.) You'll also get all the references in the articles and you can do
> > the research yourself, if you like. (Admittedly, these math models are very
> > abstract and often not directly interpreted in strict physiological terms.
> > But they are still useful.)
>

> We can discuss the math at some other time, we are discussing DIF
> right now.


> > > >
> > > > So what can DIF offer the DM public.
> > >
> > > Other than Joan (and I personally am not sure how she could handle
> > > herself in this type of organization), what other credible expertise
> > > does DIF have?
> >
> > The treasurer worked for the Red Cross and the US Gov't. He has "tickets" to
> > ride the subway under the Capitol, as an example. He's nonDM like Joan is.
> > They are the only two nonDMs in the organization.
>

> Show me some credentials.

What credentials are necessary to be a DM in an organization for DMs? What
are the minimum requirements that will keep you happy? Be careful as you may
disqualify yourself in the process. I'm all ears (OK, eyes).


> Hmm.... Not real impressed Jim.

So we are in agreement with our impressions with each other. Life goes on.

>
> <Still more stuff snipped>

Thanks. But the Bergman model discussion is where the rubber meets the
road. It turns out that Bergman is an EE for his bachelors degree, and he
tries to recruit engineers for his PhD program in physiology. I thought
about trying to get into his group in 1993, and discussed his requirements
with him at the Las Vegas ADA convention in 1993. But it would have been 6
more years and I thought that wasn't cost-effective at my age.


> Forgive me if I would NOT recommend your data to anyone... How large
> was your test group again?

You'll use your own data, as the model is calibrated specifically to your
metabolism. So you would never have to recommend my data to anybody. The
test group will be you and that should be all you care about. Does it work
for you or does it fail to work for you. Quite simple and you are the
control. (As in before the model and after the model. You decide.)


> Be open minded!!!! The last time I heard that here was a few days ago
> when some other crack pot was trying to convince us to drink our own
> urine. Jim if you can't see DIF's problems, I have to question your
> judgement.

I never told you to drink your own urine. But if you did, I'd be
nonjudgmental on that as well. (I missed that ruckus.)


> > You're quite helpful, thanks,
>

> Any time!!!

Thanks again,

Jim Dumas

unread,
May 22, 2002, 11:26:55 AM5/22/02
to
Gary,

Let's get back to the main topic. Would you be willing to spend $15/year for
a newsletter to support this organization of and for DMs. How the money is
used will be voted on by the board if and when we vote to provide the
newsletter.

One problem is Groves refuses to let manufacturers of DM supplies advertise
in any publication we offer. Obviously, this a bad idea as it will offset
costs. If we look at the IDAA (Insulin Dependent Athletics Association at
$25/year if I remember correctly from about 5 years ago) publication, that
I'd like model ours after, they permit advertisements. So your minor issues
with Groves are little concern to me. Move on.

This is a poll to see if people are interested, cast your vote, thx,

Jim Dumas

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May 22, 2002, 12:55:06 PM5/22/02
to
Gary Ennis wrote:
>
> WOW, let's try this again, ready Jim? What part of " I don't want
> him representing me in any way shape or form." did you not understand?
> If Groves is part of a watch dog / lobbying group, I WILL NOT SUPPORT
> IT IN ANY WAY. Let alone pay $15/year to read a newsletter that you
> edit/ publish.

Your nay is noted, thanks,

Wes Groleau

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May 22, 2002, 1:19:15 PM5/22/02
to

> One problem is Groves refuses to let manufacturers of DM supplies advertise
> in any publication we offer. Obviously, this a bad idea as it will offset
> costs. If we look at the IDAA (Insulin Dependent Athletics Association at
> $25/year if I remember correctly from about 5 years ago) publication, that
> I'd like model ours after, they permit advertisements. So your minor issues

Consumers Union of New York takes the same stand.
The philosophy is that if a group receives money
from Co. X, then Co. X may be able to influence
the content of of the group's publications.

--
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Marilyn McView

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May 22, 2002, 1:39:05 PM5/22/02
to

"Jim Dumas" <j-d...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3CEA9C2E...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com...

> > There is a board meeting for DIF next month. We have some money but
it's not
> > enough to do much.
>
> I'm a cyclist and I get a monthly newsletter for $15/year. We have about
> 400 members in this bicycling group and the newsletter is about 6 pages
of
> info on events each month. So this sets a bar.
>
> So I'm thinking about volunteering to be the editor and write an article
on
> mathematical modelling useful for insulin dosing.
<snip>

> Since I'll be the editor, I'll strike a balance between the beef insulin
> arguments and synthetics that I use. It will only be available in paper
and
> sent out of Boston where I live. I'll attempt to include exercise
> information for T2s as well. The idea is to get down to where the rubber
> meets the road.

Jim,

I think you have noble ideas. Unfortunately, I think you would be wasting
your time. Firstly, I think your audience that would be interested in the
detailed modeling that you do would be very limited. Secondly, the people
who have expressed interest in your foundation do not need to be provided
arguments about beef insulin, they are associated with the group because of
the beef insulin. In other words, you would not generate any new revenue.

While I have the utmost respect for the Mr. Blumenthal, I think that the
whole thing is a farce. He worked very hard to set up a good foundation
with good intentions but blew it when he said (on Sat Jul 29, 2000 6:47 pm
in the DwIinsulin group) "My main concern is that we set-up effectively
RIGHT NOW so we can mount a fund-raising campaign that will provide Dave
with a reasonable income, the directors with compensation and insurance,
and, hopefully health and retirement insurance. "

The website for Diabetics International Foundation homepage at
http://members.tripod.com/diabetics_world/ which says things like "I
strongly encourage all participants in this group to view of our 18
streaming videos and to contact their local Fox, CBS, CBC, CNN, and NBC
affiliates and request that they pick up these important Fox 13, CBS and CBC
broadcasts. Fox Tampa has won major awards for its reports on our crisis.
The TV shows are outstanding, if painful. It appears that we are being
deliberately killed!"

Deliberately killed? Lately he's been spouting that someone from
"diabusiness" or the government has been slashing his tires. And people are
supposed to take this seriously and contribute money so this guy can have a
salary? The site is not even professional looking, let alone sounding.
You cannot tell the articles from the editorial comments.

I applaud your efforts at wanting to help diabetics. Many of us feel the
same way. I don't think you will attract any more support for the
organization, there are too many problems to overcome. Standing behind,
beside or even close to Dave is dangerous to your health and reputation.

As an FYI, you may want to take a look at the site that is sharing a name (I
wonder who was first?) at http://www.dif.org/ is DIABETES INSTITUTES
FOUNDATION to see what a professional organization looks like and does.

--
Marilyn


Jim Dumas

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May 22, 2002, 4:41:42 PM5/22/02
to
Wes Groleau wrote:
>
> > One problem is Groves refuses to let manufacturers of DM supplies advertise
> > in any publication we offer. Obviously, this a bad idea as it will offset
> > costs. If we look at the IDAA (Insulin Dependent Athletics Association at
> > $25/year if I remember correctly from about 5 years ago) publication, that
> > I'd like model ours after, they permit advertisements.
>
> Consumers Union of New York takes the same stand.
> The philosophy is that if a group receives money
> from Co. X, then Co. X may be able to influence
> the content of of the group's publications.

Hi Wes,

You make a good point (as I listen to the Enron meltdown on Capitol Hill).

But you could jump-start the letter with advertising proceeds. Maybe some
time limit to phase-out advertising in a few years after it gains momentum.

This will be a hot topic at the meeting. Thanks for you input,

Jim Dumas

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May 22, 2002, 6:16:40 PM5/22/02
to
Marilyn McView wrote:
>
> I think you have noble ideas. Unfortunately, I think you would be wasting
> your time. Firstly, I think your audience that would be interested in the
> detailed modeling that you do would be very limited. Secondly, the people
> who have expressed interest in your foundation do not need to be provided
> arguments about beef insulin, they are associated with the group because of
> the beef insulin. In other words, you would not generate any new revenue.

You're probably right. Must people don't see the utility in computer
models. I've always known that only a very small group of T1s would be
interesting in writing their own code to manage their DM. But at least the
ideas would get into the public domain for discussion. So those programming
T1s interested in rolling your own code please email me or post your interest
here.


> While I have the utmost respect for the Mr. Blumenthal, I think that the
> whole thing is a farce. He worked very hard to set up a good foundation
> with good intentions but blew it when he said (on Sat Jul 29, 2000 6:47 pm
> in the DwIinsulin group) "My main concern is that we set-up effectively
> RIGHT NOW so we can mount a fund-raising campaign that will provide Dave
> with a reasonable income, the directors with compensation and insurance,
> and, hopefully health and retirement insurance. "

I remember that post too. Dr Blumenthal, PhD, is a business school professor
and DIF will be the last organization he plans to set up before he retires
(he's 77 years old and a soft-spoken type). If you want to attract good
people into the organization, you have to have a good benefits package and
salary to offer them. To have a good benefits package and salary for these
people, you must have some income to fuel the organization. Let's be
realistic. Any organization in the US will only survive if it follows good
business practices, even a nonprofit corporation. So I'm exploring
alternatives and asking for ideas. But clearly, any organization for DMs
will have to be funded mostly by DMs. If there is no interest, then I need
to know that as well.


> The website for Diabetics International Foundation homepage at
> http://members.tripod.com/diabetics_world/ which says things like "I
> strongly encourage all participants in this group to view of our 18
> streaming videos and to contact their local Fox, CBS, CBC, CNN, and NBC
> affiliates and request that they pick up these important Fox 13, CBS and CBC
> broadcasts. Fox Tampa has won major awards for its reports on our crisis.
> The TV shows are outstanding, if painful. It appears that we are being
> deliberately killed!"
>
> Deliberately killed? Lately he's been spouting that someone from
> "diabusiness" or the government has been slashing his tires. And people are
> supposed to take this seriously and contribute money so this guy can have a
> salary? The site is not even professional looking, let alone sounding.
> You cannot tell the articles from the editorial comments.

You are right. I've tried to get Groves to tone down his opinions since I've
been in DIF. But he refuses. So I must try some work-around and that would
be the newsletter that would buffer the public from him. His work with the
web site has kept him very busy and out of everybody's way. But he's the
only one who knows anything about it. So all the maintenance is his
responsibility. Admittedly, none of us other board members have requested he
change the web site. So we must shoulder some blame for its opinions and
disorganization.


> I applaud your efforts at wanting to help diabetics. Many of us feel the
> same way. I don't think you will attract any more support for the
> organization, there are too many problems to overcome. Standing behind,
> beside or even close to Dave is dangerous to your health and reputation.

Thanks and I agree that I'm at risk with this association. But I still think
we can do something useful with the organization. So I'm not ready to give
up.


> As an FYI, you may want to take a look at the site that is sharing a name (I
> wonder who was first?) at http://www.dif.org/ is DIABETES INSTITUTES
> FOUNDATION to see what a professional organization looks like and does.

Yes, I knew about www.dif.org. I mentioned that we couldn't get the URL to
the board members before we voted on the name change in Sept of 2000. We
decided it didn't matter.

As I mentioned to Gary Ennis some months ago, I'd be willing to help set up a
more moderate DM organization to act as a watchdog and give us DMs a
political voice. If you have any suggestions, I'm interested.

Thanks Marilyn. Your comments and opinions are helpful,

Nico Kadel-Garcia

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May 22, 2002, 11:45:20 PM5/22/02
to

"Wes Groleau" <wesgr...@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:3CEBD313...@despammed.com...

Yeah, I watched that happen to the EFF. It was *nasty*....


Jim Dumas

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May 23, 2002, 9:48:36 AM5/23/02
to
Hi Marilyn,

Another poll: Let's say DIF moves Groves into VP of Animal Source Methods
and finds a more moderate voice as president. Would you be interested in
participating/becoming a member of DIF then?

I still think we can get everybody under one roof,

Beav

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May 23, 2002, 10:41:11 AM5/23/02
to

"Jim Dumas" <j-d...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3CEBB8BF...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com...

> Gary,
>
> Let's get back to the main topic. Would you be willing to spend $15/year
for
> a newsletter to support this organization of and for DMs. How the money
is
> used will be voted on by the board if and when we vote to provide the
> newsletter.
>
> One problem is Groves refuses to let manufacturers of DM supplies
advertise
> in any publication we offer. Obviously, this a bad idea as it will offset
> costs.

And build walls between diabetics and those who supply their every need.

If we look at the IDAA (Insulin Dependent Athletics Association at
> $25/year if I remember correctly from about 5 years ago) publication, that
> I'd like model ours after, they permit advertisements. So your minor
issues
> with Groves are little concern to me. Move on.

Jim, allow me to chuck in a Brit 2pence worth. Gary has a point about Groves
causing more problems than he's ever going to solve and he's obviously got a
bee in his bonnet about ANYONE who supplies diabetics with ANYTHING. This
attitude is spilling over in a harmful way (to your organisation) because if
he's deciding policy and strategy (and he obviously is) you'll not gain the
support you need.

Beav


Beav

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May 23, 2002, 10:51:30 AM5/23/02
to

"Jim Dumas" <j-d...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3CEC18C8...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com...

Jim.

Going off Mar's previous post it seems like Groves would be the main
beneficiary and I'd like to know how he comes under the heading of "Good
people". And I mean as in good for the organisation, not "good" as in I
don't care for him as a person. He'd be good for ANY organisation thet he's
not involved in.

To have a good benefits package and salary for these
> people, you must have some income to fuel the organization.

But pumping money into a lost cause won't fuel anything. I wonder why you
can't see that.

Let's be
> realistic. Any organization in the US will only survive if it follows
good
> business practices, even a nonprofit corporation.

And one of the first principles of a successful business is to ditch the
deadwood. No organisation can afford passengers or even worse, drawbacks.

So I'm exploring
> alternatives and asking for ideas. But clearly, any organization for DMs
> will have to be funded mostly by DMs. If there is no interest, then I
need
> to know that as well.

I can't see any interest being generated while Groves is in the picture. The
man has no idea about control and even less idea about personal
responsibility.

Beav


Beav

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May 23, 2002, 10:56:48 AM5/23/02
to

"Jim Dumas" <j-d...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3CECF334...@dontSPAMMEmindspring.com...

> Hi Marilyn,
>
> Another poll: Let's say DIF moves Groves into VP of Animal Source Methods
> and finds a more moderate voice as president. Would you be interested in
> participating/becoming a member of DIF then?

This is a little like Dubya saying "How about we offer Al Gore a job as VP
in charge of our next campaign" Gore wouldn't take it and no-one would want
him to anyway.


>
> I still think we can get everybody under one roof,

I want to know WHY you want everyone (Groves) under this roof? It makes NO
sense whatsoever to even admit you've even HEARD of the bloke. You need some
DISTANCE between whatever you're doing and Groves before you'll attain any
goals. Or (as Gary said) what part of "get rid of him" don't you understand
(or words to that effect)

Beav


Bev

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May 24, 2002, 9:21:43 PM5/24/02
to
Beav,

I tried to email you, and it bounced. Can you email me, pls?

Thanks,
Bev :)


Remove the "SpamFree" for email, please.

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