Praise the lard
Diarmid Logan
Praise the lard
The 'Polish Atkins diet' recommends eating prodigious amounts of
animal fat. Can this possibly be good for you?
By Monica Eng
Tribune staff reporter
Published June 9, 2004
Vinka Peschak starts each day by knocking back a full cup of heavy
whipping cream.
That's at 8 a.m.
"At around 11 o'clock I take three or four egg yolks and make some
kind of omelet with lard for breakfast," the Portage Park resident
explains. Peschak, a native of Poland, eats her omelet with a cup of
buttery boiled vegetables and a slender piece of almond toast
slathered in more butter or lard.
Dinner is usually a fatty piece of pork or some kind of organ meat
with lard-cooked french fries and more butter-soaked vegetables.
In the middle of the day she might have a cup of coffee, "but only
with a lot of heavy whipping cream in it."
Peschak has been eating like this for more than five years. She is
slim, energetic, and says, "I feel wonderful, never tired and never
hungry."
She is not on Atkins. She is not on South Beach. Peschak, along with
an estimated 2,000 Polish Chicagoans -- and 2 million folks worldwide
-- is on the Optimal Diet, a Polish eating plan that requires the
consumption of prodigious amounts of animal fat -- preferably lard.
The diet was hatched in Poland some 40 years ago by Dr. Jan
Kwasniewski, who started developing it while working as a dietician
for a military sanitarium in Ciechocinek, Poland. There he observed
that many of his patients were sick, "not because of any pathogenic
factors . . . but the result of one underlying cause -- bad
nutrition," according to his English language "Optimal Nutrition"
book. After experimenting on his family and himself, Kwasniewski
concluded that the ideal nutritional combo came from eating three
grams of fat for every one gram of protein and half a gram of
carbohydrates.
After a couple of decades of refining this theory, Kwasniewski
published his first book in Poland in 1990. But it wasn't until
converts came forward with their stories of weight loss and recovery
from disease in the mid-'90s that the diet really took off it its
native land and Kwasniewski's books went into wide circulation. Today
there are at least two magazines devoted to the Optimal lifestyle and
Kwasniewski writes a twice weekly column for the regional Polish
newspaper Dziennik Zachodni.
It was one of these books that made it into Peschak's hands in late
1998, when she was having lunch with other Polish women at a Chicago
factory. "One lady who just came back from vacation in Poland showed
me this book she got there and it made a lot of sense to me." A few
weeks later, Peschak started the diet.
It wasn't until more than three years later, though, that Chicago
would become the North American capital for this eating plan. That's
when Tomasz Zielinski bought a little storefront on Milwaukee Avenue
and opened Calma Optimal Foods. The first and only one of its kind in
the nation, it operates as a deli, meeting center and, as of this
spring, a restaurant for those on the lard-laden plan. Peschak serves
as its manager.
Sometimes called the Polish Atkins, the Optimal Diet severely
restricts the intake of carbohydrates and sugars, but differs from
Atkins by de-emphasizing protein and beefing up, or more accurately
porking up, the fat to a level that would have even made the late
Robert Atkins reach for his heart.
250 grams of fat per day
On average, the diet recommends a whopping 250 grams of fat per day,
about four times what the FDA recommended for the average person to
maintain his/her weight and about 10 times the amount of saturated fat
allowed.
So despite its popularity in Poland -- Lech Walesa is reported to have
lost 44 pounds and cured his diabetes on it recently -- the mainstream
medical establishment there and here is skeptical.
"I am very against diets like this," says Jadwiga Roguska, a
practicing internist at the Feinberg School of Medicine at
Northwestern University. "All high-fat diets are unhealthy in the long
term and there is absolutely no benefit to weight reduction of this
sort because it is threatening to health. . . . Of course, high-fat
diets will give you the benefits of energy and weight loss, but they
are just not good for you."
Roguska based her comments on a brief overview of its principles, but
Chicago physician Mark Sobor has seen it up close and has watched an
increasing number of his patients in the Polish community embrace it.
"Kwasniewski is pure fat," says Sobor who practices in Jefferson Park
and is also a licensed acupuncturist. "Eat fat non-stop. Everything is
pure fat. The more fat you can take in the better and these people are
fanatics about it. But the thing is they're all skinny."
On a recent Sunday morning at the Optimal deli/center in Portage Park,
about 30 followers of the Kwasniewski plan gathered for a weekly
meeting and shared their stories.
There was the ginger-haired firecracker Irena Kozlowicz, 78, of Niles,
who went on the diet five years ago after Kwasniewski came to speak at
the Copernicus Center in 1999. At the time she was suffering from
chronic eye problems, asthma and pain in her knees.
"Now I can walk better than a young person," she chirps. "I can run up
six floors of stairs and my grandson can't catch me. He's 17 years
old. I meet young ladies and they are always tired and sweating, but I
never am. I didn't need to lose weight, but I lost 8 pounds. I am 78,
but I feel like I am 50. I thank God for the diet."
Then there is Jozef Michael Ostrowski, 71, who says he has been on a
variation of the diet his whole life.
"Since the occupation of Poland my parents could only afford pork meat
and liver and blood sausage and lard," Ostrowski says through an
interpreter. "It is not like I was following this diet precisely but
generally. At that time I didn't know this kind of natural food was
good for me. I just knew that I could eat scrambled eggs with a thin
piece of bread and lard and I would be full all day. I started eating
regular food like McDonald's and I could not handle the pain and so I
went back to the diet and have felt better and better every day."
Chicago physician Christopher Kubik wasn't at the meeting, but in a
phone interview he said that 4 1/2 years ago he was overweight and
suffering from fatigue and stones in the bladder. But within a couple
of months of embarking on this high-fat journey he saw results.
No more problems
"I was losing weigh gradually [he lost about 25 pounds in six weeks]
but I felt fine. Since then, I didn't have any more problems with
stones, my skin complexion improved and I am still feeling a lot of
energy," says Kubik, 57, who reports that he breakfasts on fried eggs,
bacon and string cheese seven days a week. "While I was losing the
weight I could feel the ketones as a metallic tasted on the mouth, but
after I reached my optimal weight, [the ketosis] stopped. Now my
weight has remained steady at about 185, which is in the upper limit
of normal for my height."
Kubik, who also has degrees in public health and health law, says he
does not actively promote the diet, "because it is not considered a
standard of care and the medical community still recommends low-fat
diets and it is not something I could support if I were sued." But if
patients ask, "I tell them that I am on it and have seen positive
results."
Sobor has also seen a growing number of Kwasniewski converts who claim
weight loss is only one of the benefits they've reaped.
Chester Matuszewski, 46, for instance says that four years ago he was
diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and was told there was no way he
could be totally cured.
"Every single joint imaginable in my hips, elbows, knees and hands
hurt," the Jefferson Park resident recalled. Remembering something he
had read in a Polish newspaper about the Optimal diet, he decided to
check it out even though it seemed unappetizing.
"For years I thought that pork is not good for you and I didn't like
the smell, but I forced myself. . . . After two months I started to
feel better and I didn't want to attribute it to the diet. But my
friends also saw a difference in me and I had so much energy. Today
after four years, I have no pain and no swelling and I am totally
cured."
Sobor hears these stories all the time, but still has his
reservations.
"I'm sure you've heard their claims that their joint pain is gone and
diabetes is gone," he says. "And they say it because it's true. You
can apparently get a lot of benefits if you decrease your carbohydrate
intake, and stop taking in all the white flour and stop taking in all
the refined foods because you are not stressing your body out all the
time with all of the insulin spikes and becoming hyperglycemic and
hypoglycemic."
"But do I recommend the diet? I don't know," he says. "I don't think
Kwasniewski is as good as Atkins or that it is something you should go
on for a long time. Now the South Beach Diet that is a nice diet with
more flexibility. But this Optimal diet is the most radical of the
low-carb diets."
No position from the AMA
In the U.S. the Optimal Diet hasn't yet caught the attention of the
medical establishment. The American Medical Association doesn't have a
position on Atkins, much less Optimal. And Lisa Dorfman, spokeswoman
for the American Dietetic Association, had not heard of it either.
Still, based on a quick description of the diet, she didn't condemn it
outright.
"I can see how this would be a very attractive program, certainly in
the senior citizen community because these are nutrient dense foods
and seniors don't need to eat a lot of food," says Dorfman, a licensed
nutritionist.
"But for the general public I see where there could be potential
problems. We just know that long-term high-fat diets leave one with a
heightened risk of heart disease, stroke and hypertension. This is
certainly not for children, teenagers or pregnant women.
"But for this group of Polish seniors I think it's adorable,
especially if it was developed by someone from the old country. As a
psychotherapist, I can see where they must feel like you've got to be
healthy eating this because there is a psychological connection to
eating these foods. It's old country eating."
Mmmmm ... headcheese
Here's a sample daily menu from the Optimal Diet Web site
homodiet.netfirms.com
BREAKFAST
Two slices of homemade headcheese loaf* with mustard
One soft-boiled egg
Two cheese-lard pancakes with butter
Tea with lemon (no sugar)
LUNCH
Two slices of baked blood sausage fried in bacon fat
Tea with lemon (no sugar)
DINNER
Broth with two egg yolks
Hash browns
One strip of bacon
DAILY TOTAL: 254 grams of fat and 2,923 calories
*This Optimal daily menu comes with a recipe for home-made headcheese,
which requires the following ingredients: half-skinned and de-eyed
pig's head with ears chopped into pieces, one bay leaf, a couple of
kernels of allspice and salt and pepper to taste.
Larding it on
Here's what you'll find in the deli cases, coolers and shelves of
Calma Optimal Foods:
Polish specialties: flaczki (tripe soup), bigos (hunter's stew),
borscht, Polish sausages, blintzes, even pierogi and paczki.
Organ delights: pork liver pate, brain croquettes, blood sausage,
headcheese, brain with vegetable soup and liver and tongue stew.
Desserts: Jell-O-whipped cream slices; low-sugar, high-fat ice creams;
poppy seed cakes; and low-sugar cheesecake.
Dairy products, miscellaneous: heavy whipping cream, jumbo Amish eggs,
Amish butter, nut-based breads, collagen soups, tubs of house-rendered
lard, lard with bacon and beef tallow.
In a nod to the diet's arrival in the States, there's even Optimal
pizza, larded up with extra bacon, butter-fried mushrooms and a butter
crust.
Succorso
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0406090030jun09,1,5499275.story?coll=chi-homepagenews2-utl
>
> Praise the lard
>
> The 'Polish Atkins diet' recommends eating prodigious amounts of
> animal fat. Can this possibly be good for you?
>
Yewwww....
Our prestigious Channel 4 Breakfast program once ran a Lard Eating
competition, and the editor only just managed to cut away as one
contestant hurled his guts across the studio.
Lard - it's nasty. What about "dripping" - I've never had it, is it the
same stuff?
--
Succorso
Chad C.
lower in saturated fat than butter and higher in monounsaturated. If I were
baking more regularly I'd probably use lard in place of butter for pie
crusts and so on. If you're talking about eating it plain though, then yeah
I'd agree with you but I feel the same way about butter. :)
-Chad
"Succorso" <ch...@ivy-house.net> wrote in message
news:ca7gah$26l$1$8302...@news.demon.co.uk...
Bill
OREOs, anywone?
Oh, that and seal fat mixed with berries. Eskimo Ice Cream.
Bill
"Ignoramus26239" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.26239.invalid> wrote in message
news:ca7fmq$fg5$0...@pita.alt.net...
> While this diet seems to be relatively sensible, as long as all
> vitamins are supplied, I must point out that lard (salo) is very hard
> to eat in a meaningful quantity. As soon as I start eating lard, I
> feel nauseous. Eating a few pieces of lard prior to my one day fast,
> in fact, helps me not to feel hungry during the day.
>
> i
ma...@toad-net.com
There is nothing like biscuits made with real lard. As a kid we raised
hogs and rendered lard as about the only source of cooking fat we used,
butter was churned and used as a flavoring agent. Rendering also produces
those cracklings some find popular now, we kids loved them and they were
one of the highlights of butchering season, along side the unbeatable
taste of fresh that day pork loin. .
>http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0406090030jun09,1,5499275.
>story?coll=chi-homepagenews2-utl
>
>Praise the lard
>
>The 'Polish Atkins diet' recommends eating prodigious amounts of
>animal fat. Can this possibly be good for you?
>
Roger Zoul
:: I had no problem eating lard when it was mixed with sugar! Mmmmm .
:: . . OREOs, anywone?
Hmm....so mix lard with splenda and sandwich between to pieces of almond
bread.
::
:: Oh, that and seal fat mixed with berries. Eskimo Ice Cream.
Cubit
I looked for the book on Amazon, but didn't find it. Even the website
quoted in the article does not say where the book can be purchased.
I have considered buying lard and mixing it with Splenda to make Oreo
stuffing. However, the lard at my supermarket is hydrogenated, which means
they made it into a transfat. (Note: Oreo changed the stuffing to
hydrogenated vegetable oil a few years back. I stopped buying Oreos because
of the transfat.)
Any ideas on finding the book, or where to buy pure lard?
I have never seen tallow in the store.
"Diarmid Logan" <diarmi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:622d5dd0.04060...@posting.google.com...
Jackie Patti
> Any ideas on finding the book, or where to buy pure lard?
>
> I have never seen tallow in the store.
I have bought both lard and tallow for candle and soap-making purposes.
I found these by asking at a butcher shop - one where they actually cut
up meat.
--
As you accelerate your food, it takes exponentially more and more energy
to increase its velocity, until you hit a limit at C. This energy has
to come from somewhere; in this case, from the food's nutritional value.
Thus, the faster the food is, the worse it gets.
-- Mark Hughes, comprehending the taste of fast food
rainbow
thing.) Yummy yum yum yum! Also pork back bone and red beans
(Louisiana), blood suasage, haven't had any for years ..... M-M-M-M
Rainbow
Bob (this one)
> In article <AOIxc.82354$hr3....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>, Cubit wrote:
>
>>Thanks for posting this. I love the ideas here.
>>
>>I looked for the book on Amazon, but didn't find it. Even the website
>>quoted in the article does not say where the book can be purchased.
>>
>>I have considered buying lard and mixing it with Splenda to make Oreo
>>stuffing. However, the lard at my supermarket is hydrogenated, which means
>>they made it into a transfat. (Note: Oreo changed the stuffing to
>>hydrogenated vegetable oil a few years back. I stopped buying Oreos because
>>of the transfat.)
>>
>>Any ideas on finding the book, or where to buy pure lard?
>>
> Cubit, I suspect very strongly that what Poles meant by "lard" is
> "salted pork bellies", not lard that was rendered into pure fat.
>
> I have not heard of Poles eating rendered lard, but they eat salted
> pork bellies all the time. They could also be other salted pig fat
> cuts, not just bellies. Any polish store would have an abundance of
> that stuff at a very reasonable price.
Northern Italians make "lardo" which is essentially salted pork fat.
It isn't rendered into what Americans call lard, though. It can be
sliced. And it is to be served thinly sliced on bread. To get
Americans to eat it, it's often called "white prosciutto." <LOL>
Pastorio
Beav
Basically, but dripping can be beef, pork or lamb. Beef dripping is THE best
stuff if you're into fry-ups, but as for eating it "off the bone" so to
speak, well include me out:-)
Beav
Bay Area Dave
dave
radref
radref
Wes Groleau
He generally ignored any requests for empirical evidence, and Kwasniewski's
websites, though interesting, raised some of my red flags with talk of how he
was the lone voice of sanity with all the other doctors in Poland conspiring
against him, etc.
I generally appreciate it when someone doesn't support the MYTH that
any kind of fat causes heart attacks, but these guys seem to have gone
off the opposite "deep end."
I'm personally not interested unless empirical evidence shows significant
improvements in measurable health factors. NOT a few testimonials.
--
Wes Groleau
"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying
Amen to what the world tells you you should prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive."
-- Robert Louis Stevenson
Wes Groleau
> Any ideas on finding the book, or where to buy pure lard?
You can order it from Kwasniewski's website
(which is in both English and Polish).
--
Wes Groleau
Always listen to experts. They'll tell you
what can't be done and why. Then do it.
-- Robert A. Heinlein
Contemporary Beadwork
Contemporary Beadwork
Simm Webb
picnic now, cause a cardiologist will waiting for you. (You can see me now, or
you will see me later). They won't be singing the same tune after a by pass, or
a stent or two in place, along with a strict diet.
Laugh on now.
On 9 Jun 2004 09:45:36 -0700, diarmi...@gmail.com (Diarmid Logan) wrote:
>http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0406090030jun09,1,5499275.story?coll=chi-homepagenews2-utl
>
>Praise the lard
>
>The 'Polish Atkins diet' recommends eating prodigious amounts of
>animal fat. Can this possibly be good for you?
>
Grateful to be back.
Eddie MD OTF
Bob in CT
<ignora...@NOSPAM.2546.invalid> wrote:
> In article <b2tgc0tngtfubvldj...@4ax.com>, Simm Webb wrote:
>
>> The proponents of this diet must be quite young. Anyway, let them
>> enjoy the picnic now, cause a cardiologist will waiting for you.
>> (You can see me now, or you will see me later). They won't be
>> singing the same tune after a by pass, or a stent or two in place,
>> along with a strict diet.
>
> Low carbers see better blood lipid improvements than low fatters.
>
> i
That's if you believe that blood lipids mean anything. Here are some
naysayers:
Why is it that so many people with low cholesterol have heart disease?
--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply
Bob in CT
<ignora...@NOSPAM.2546.invalid> wrote:
> Could be that some heart disease is caused by/correlated with bad
> blood lipids and some is not... I eat 2 eggs per day, plenty of fat
> (much of it is unsaturated fat) and my lipids are good, so, I am not
> concerned about whether BAD lipids cause heart disease, for my own
> health. That said, the question is interesting to me in an abstract
> sense.
>
> I am looking at the site that you mentioned.
>
> i
It is interesting, and I think unaswered. Why do I have low total
cholesterol (although barely good HDL), even though I eat low carb, when
my mother, who tries to eat the "recommended" high carb diet -- although
she does smoke, has a very high total cholesterol reading? Why do
seemingly fit people, who eat the "right" foods and exercise a lot die of
Wolfbrother
> The proponents of this diet must be quite young. Anyway, let them enjoy the
> picnic now, cause a cardiologist will waiting for you. (You can see me now, or
> you will see me later). They won't be singing the same tune after a by pass, or
> a stent or two in place, along with a strict diet.
>
> Laugh on now.
>
>
>
information on fat and cholesterol because you are obviously
uninformed.
Cubit
harmless, and even essential. The studies that led doctors to denounce fat
were ambiguous. The studies used high carbs and high fat. They assumed
that it was the fat causing trouble, not the carbs, without doing a study to
clarify. This was not science.
These same doctors circumcised me as a baby for "medical reasons." They are
barbarians hiding behind the trappings of science. As an excuse they call
themselves artists.
I don't see anyone laughing.
Cholesterol is a nutrient. If the diet lacks Cholesterol, the body makes
Cholesterol.
"Simm Webb" <edvan...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:b2tgc0tngtfubvldj...@4ax.com...
tcomeau
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0406090030jun09,1,5499275.story?coll=chi-homepagenews2-utl
>
> Praise the lard
>
> The 'Polish Atkins diet' recommends eating prodigious amounts of
> animal fat. Can this possibly be good for you?
>
1) Calories are all - to lose weight you must cut back on high calorie
fats
One would think that anyone eating this much fat would immediately
gain weight, then realizing this, they would immediately stop eating
so much high-calorie fat.
2) Fat causes heart disease
One would think that anyone eating such large amounts of fat would
quickly, at least within 5 years, develop heart disease and see their
health quickly go downhill thus terminating the diet literally and
figuratively.
One guy is suing Atkins claiming that he developed 99% blockage within
one or two years of starting to eat a diet significantly lower in fat
than the diet discussed above, and some people believe him.
How is it possible to even suggest this kind of diet if the items
number 1 and 2 above are true and correct? Never mind actually having
a number of people eating the high-fat diet, losing weight on the
high-fat diet and gaining good health from the high-fat diet.
The whole situation is absolutely absurd.
TC
billydee
> picnic now, cause a cardiologist will waiting for you. (You can see me now, or
> you will see me later). They won't be singing the same tune after a by pass, or
> a stent or two in place, along with a strict diet.
>
> Laugh on now.
evidently. I picture a good number of fat posters here eating
prodigious amounts of bacon, lard and cream thinking they are dieting.
Luna
jjbch...@hotmail.com (billydee) wrote:
Wow. That old stereotype still survives, huh? The more accurate picture
would be of people eating smaller portions of regular foods instead of
prodigious amounts of "reduced fat" or "low fat" versions with added sugar
to make up for the flavor that's lost when fat is removed.
--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick
I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.
Alan
wrote:
>The proponents of this diet must be quite young. Anyway, let them enjoy the
>picnic now, cause a cardiologist will waiting for you. (You can see me now, or
>you will see me later). They won't be singing the same tune after a by pass, or
>a stent or two in place, along with a strict diet.
>
>Laugh on now.
>
>
>
Hi Simm
X-posts cut.
On cardiac problems, I suspect you may be correct. It's certainly not a
diet I'll be recommending to anyone; but it may be wise to read articles
before commenting:
"There was the ginger-haired firecracker Irena Kozlowicz, 78, of Niles,
who went on the diet five years ago after Kwasniewski came to speak at
the Copernicus Center in 1999. At the time she was suffering from
chronic eye problems, asthma and pain in her knees.
Now I can walk better than a young person," she chirps. "I can run up
six floors of stairs and my grandson can't catch me. He's 17 years old.
I meet young ladies and they are always tired and sweating, but I never
am. I didn't need to lose weight, but I lost 8 pounds. I am 78, but I
feel like I am 50. I thank God for the diet."
and:
'Then there is Jozef Michael Ostrowski, 71, who says he has been on a
variation of the diet his whole life."
Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia.
Remove weight and carbs to email.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
Wolfbrother
> There is real science behind the belief that fat without high carbs is
> harmless, and even essential. The studies that led doctors to denounce fat
> were ambiguous. The studies used high carbs and high fat. They assumed
> that it was the fat causing trouble, not the carbs, without doing a study to
> clarify. This was not science.
>
That is true. All you have to do is look at the conclusions of
those flawed stuides. It is always "high fat and high sugar foods are
dangerous". They are always lumped together in studies. The biggest
reason however is that most of the early studies on fat are done with
trans fat lumped together with all saturated fat and animal fat and it
is not disclosed in the research. This of course was when the corrupt
mainstream medical comunity did everything they could to maintain the
false belief that all saturated fat was the same so there need not be
any distinction. That is really one thing people just do not
understand. It is only recently that the mainstream has had to
reluctantly admit( after about 60+ years of that truth being exposed)
that trans fat is not the same but that does not change all the
previous studies on "saturated fat" that include undisclosed trans
fat. There are simply no real studies showing animal fat alone as
being dangerous and in fact all the real data and research points to
the exact opposite.
revek
"Luna" <luna...@NOSPAMmindspring.com> wrote in message
news:lunachick-B69C5...@news03.east.earthlink.net...
> > You can't say anything bad about saturated fat on this forum
> > evidently.
This is being crossposted all to hell and back. Pay attention billydee.
The person you responded to doesn't know where you're posting from.
I picture a good number of fat posters here eating
> > prodigious amounts of bacon, lard and cream thinking they are dieting.
You have a vivid imagination, but it's not really based in fact. Which is
entirely your own fault for not paying attention.
> Wow. That old stereotype still survives, huh? The more accurate picture
> would be of people eating smaller portions of regular foods instead of
> prodigious amounts of "reduced fat" or "low fat" versions with added sugar
> to make up for the flavor that's lost when fat is removed.
billydee has a thing about fat, especially saturated fat. He still hangs
out here in asdlc dropping his onliners into conversations, rather randomly
it seems. Rather Pavlovian, like another poster we know.
revek
followups set
Simm Webb
coronary arteries to open blockage. Guess what I used to like, and what is on
the no- no list for those who have had either stents or bypasses. I am not
confused, especially since I can walk 4 blocks without being either short of
breath or hurting with chest pains.
Grateful to be back.
Eddie MD OTF
Wes Groleau
> Low carbers see better blood lipid improvements than low fatters.
Yes, but there's a big difference between saying
"Stop worrying so much about fat, it's not the bogeyman
they're making it out to be."
and saying
"Oh, by all means, eat tons of fat and little else.
You don't need protein or vitamins if you get enough fat."
:-)
--
Wes Groleau
http://groleau.freeshell.org/teaching/
Mirek Fidler
news:6eb8f6eb.04061...@posting.google.com...
> "Cubit" <n...@no.not> wrote in message
news:<TJ1yc.82916$9Z4....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>...
> > There is real science behind the belief that fat without high carbs
is
> > harmless, and even essential. The studies that led doctors to
denounce fat
> > were ambiguous. The studies used high carbs and high fat. They
assumed
> > that it was the fat causing trouble, not the carbs, without doing a
study to
> > clarify. This was not science.
> >
>
> That is true. All you have to do is look at the conclusions of
> those flawed stuides. It is always "high fat and high sugar foods are
> dangerous". They are always lumped together in studies. The biggest
Yes. Even if you go back to Ancel Keys "20 countries" study that started
that low-fat idiocy, there are table associating consumption of food
groups with heart disease. And guess what - even in those tables, sugar
had higher association numbers than animal fat. And, of course,
accidentally same countries with high fat consumption had high sugar
consumption.....
> reason however is that most of the early studies on fat are done with
> trans fat lumped together with all saturated fat and animal fat and it
Well, to be honest, milk contains fair amount of transfats too....
> that trans fat is not the same but that does not change all the
> previous studies on "saturated fat" that include undisclosed trans
> fat. There are simply no real studies showing animal fat alone as
Also it seems likely that real problem of saturated fat is that it can
destroy pancreas cells when your BG goes beyond 140.
So perhaps the real thing is that saturated fat can worsen situation if
you eat carbs in excess.
Mirek
Diarmid Logan
> picnic now, cause a cardiologist will waiting for you. (You can see me now, or
> you will see me later). They won't be singing the same tune after a by pass, or
> a stent or two in place, along with a strict diet.
>
> Laugh on now.
You obviously didn't read the entire article. Check out this passage:
On a recent Sunday morning at the Optimal deli/center in Portage Park,
about 30 followers of the Kwasniewski plan gathered for a weekly
meeting and shared their stories.
There was the ginger-haired firecracker Irena Kozlowicz, 78, of Niles,
who went on the diet five years ago after Kwasniewski came to speak at
the Copernicus Center in 1999. At the time she was suffering from
chronic eye problems, asthma and pain in her knees.
"Now I can walk better than a young person," she chirps. "I can run up
six floors of stairs and my grandson can't catch me. He's 17 years
old. I meet young ladies and they are always tired and sweating, but I
never am. I didn't need to lose weight, but I lost 8 pounds. I am 78,
but I feel like I am 50. I thank God for the diet."
Then there is Jozef Michael Ostrowski, 71, who says he has been on a
variation of the diet his whole life.
"Since the occupation of Poland my parents could only afford pork meat
No more problems
Werdna
When you eat the hydrogenated oils your cells are built from these
messed-up oils. To maintain the rigidity of the cell walls, more
cholesterol leaves the blood stream and is incorporated in and around
your cells. So you get some nice arterial clogging and your blood
cholesterol levels read nice and low.
If you eat the saturated fats, those are used to make your cells.
They work fine, which makes sense considering that we evolved eating
them.
billydee
When it ceases to amuse me I will stop.
Cubit
I've never heard this. How do transfats get in milk?
Cubit
"Wolfbrother" <ranger...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6eb8f6eb.04061...@posting.google.com...
Bob in CT
>> Well, to be honest, milk contains fair amount of transfats too....
>
> I've never heard this. How do transfats get in milk?
>
>
Pasteurization? Here's an article that espouses real milk:
http://www.angelfire.com/folk/realmilkalliance/page2.html
Another:
http://www.coconutoil.com/diet_disease.htm
I live right near a place that sells raw milk, and I might look into
buying some for making yoghurt and for my coffed (I can't stand drinking
regular milk).
Tony Lew
> "Wolfbrother" <ranger...@yahoo.com> píse v diskusním príspevku
> news:6eb8f6eb.04061...@posting.google.com...
> > "Cubit" <n...@no.not> wrote in message
> news:<TJ1yc.82916$9Z4....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>...
> > > There is real science behind the belief that fat without high carbs
> is
> > > harmless, and even essential. The studies that led doctors to
> denounce fat
> > > were ambiguous. The studies used high carbs and high fat. They
> assumed
> > > that it was the fat causing trouble, not the carbs, without doing a
> study to
> > > clarify. This was not science.
> > >
> >
> > That is true. All you have to do is look at the conclusions of
> > those flawed stuides. It is always "high fat and high sugar foods are
> > dangerous". They are always lumped together in studies. The biggest
>
> Yes. Even if you go back to Ancel Keys "20 countries" study that started
> that low-fat idiocy,
Actually, it was the "7 Country Study". There was data on 23 countries,
but he only used data from seven of them. Why? Probably because the
other 16 countries showed no correlation between saturated fat
consumption and heart disease!
ma...@toad-net.com
"Also it seems likely that real problem of saturated fat is that it can
destroy pancreas cells when your BG goes beyond 140.
So perhaps the real thing is that saturated fat can worsen situation if
you eat carbs in excess."
I have seen an abstract about the increased risk factor of high sat fat
for developing insulin resistence, do you recall the source of the 140 bg
level above?
Mirek Fidler
news:kLkyc.69636$k07....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
> > Well, to be honest, milk contains fair amount of transfats too....
>
> I've never heard this. How do transfats get in milk?
Poor cow inserts some when synthetising it. Try google.
It is quite possible that those naturally occuring transfats do not
represent problems...
Mirek
Mirek Fidler
started
> > that low-fat idiocy,
>
> Actually, it was the "7 Country Study". There was data on 23
countries,
> but he only used data from seven of them. Why? Probably because the
> other 16 countries showed no correlation between saturated fat
> consumption and heart disease!
In fact, I think there were two studies, earlier (in fifties) "7" and
later (sixties?) "20".
Mirek
FOB
connected to something else--meat, eggs, milk, cream, nuts. I find I have
to make an effort to keep the percentage of fat up where I want it even
though I love fatty things.
In news:7OqdnQ0j1Zd...@gbronline.com,
Wes Groleau <grolea...@freeshell.org> stated
Doug Freyburger
>
> Any ideas on ... or where to buy pure lard?
> I have never seen tallow in the store.
If your grocery has a Hispanic section, look for a red box
labelled Manteca. It's lard in quarters like sticks of
butter. Much better than vegitable shortening that has
transfats.
I was astonished that the so-called "Optimal Diet" didn't
consider salads and/or veggies every day to be mandatory
like Atkins does from day one.
Priscilla H Ballou
>Any ideas on finding the book, or where to buy pure lard?
In the Shaw's where I shop, it's located next to the butter.
Priscilla
--
"Come to Planet Earth! Watch people with brains not use them! Several
shows daily! Free admittance!" Keera Ann Fox in alt.support.menopause
JC Der Koenig
news:7960d3ee.04061...@posting.google.com...
>
>
> I was astonished that the so-called "Optimal Diet" didn't
> consider salads and/or veggies every day to be mandatory
> like Atkins does from day one.
You're astonished because of tunnel vision. Atkins' plan isn't the only one
that works, and isn't even the best one out there.
Pizza Gurl
outside of those boundaries.
"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7960d3ee.04061...@posting.google.com...
JC Der Koenig
news:35WdnV0R0Oc...@buckeye-express.com...
> you think too much of Atkins and what is better, in your
> opinion? I've been experimenting with various things picked
> up on this newsgroup, i.e. fasting (which is working out
> well BTW), and I'm curious.
>
I don't think too much about any of the idiot plans, including Atkins.
Salads and vegetables are not mandatory. How difficult is it to cut the
carbs from your diet? Of course Atkins will be glad to tell you how to do it
his way, for a fee. And while you're at it you might as well buy some of the
crapola that's sold in his name.
I think the Polish Optimal Diet sounds just fine. But they'll probably take
it too far with marketing and over-the-top claims.
What I prefer for myself is a form of the Anabolic Diet, or CKD, tailored to
my specific needs. Which gets to the point. If you're going to use low carb
as a vehicle for weight loss, you need to do some experimenting with it to
see what works for you. Your diet plan should be tailored to your specific
needs. If salads and vegetables work for you, then fine. But to say they are
mandatory is total hogwash.
Cubit
today before seeing your reply. I didn't know to look for "Manteca."
Safeway had a large tub of hydrogenated lard for under $5. The butcher shop
had large and small tubs, but they were also hydrogenated/ full of
transfats.
I'll check the Hispanic sections again with Manteca in mind, then look for a
Hispanic market. There was a Hispanic and Asian market nearby, but it
burned down about a week ago. It was a 6 alarm fire.
For Pizza Gurl, the term Hispanic is used all the time in California.
People get upset if you say Mexican. It is almost like the N word.
"Doug Freyburger" <dfre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7960d3ee.04061...@posting.google.com...
Gary C
Jim Bard
"Cubit" <n...@no.not> wrote in message
> For Pizza Gurl, the term Hispanic is used all the time in California.
> People get upset if you say Mexican. It is almost like the N word.
Same in south Texas. Mexican is a nationality, and Latinos here are
American.
Unless they're regular folk (as most are) and good friends, then they're
'Messkin.' LOL!!
Luna
Am I wrong in believing that vegetables have fiber and vitamins that the
human body needs and cannot get from other sources? If our bodies don't
need vegetables, then why aren't our teeth built for only eating meat?
--
Michelle Levin
http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick
I have only 3 flaws. My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.
tcomeau
and it is not hydrogenated. Vegetable oils are hydrogenated so that
they are solid at room temp and have a texture similar to lard, it is
then called shortening. Lard contains little or no trans fats,
shortening is loaded with trans fats.
Pork fat rules!
TC
"Cubit" <n...@no.not> wrote in message news:<0bvyc.957$cW6...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
JC Der Koenig
"Cubit" <n...@no.not> wrote in message
> If I understand corrctly, you carb-up on weekends and go low carb on
> weekdays?
>
Not exactly.
> If so, how high are your weekend carbs? 200?
>
I don't count. I keep fat as low as possible, and protein comes up a little
short also.
> At my higher weight, high carb days just trigger mini-stalls, but I'm
> curious, since someday I may have trouble getting from 150 to 140.
>
Do you exercise? If not, then forget about it.
> Cubit
> 311/240.2/165
>
>
Cubit
Hydrogenated Lard.
As I understand it, hydrogenation was developed at the beginning of the 20th
century as a technique for preventing spoilage. I guess the microbes know
there is something wrong with the food. One tub actually said that it does
not need refrigeration.
Here is a link to a webpage about it:
http://tinyurl.com/2flto
"tcomeau" <tund...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b550f406.04061...@posting.google.com...
Carmen
On 12-Jun-2004, tund...@hotmail.com (tcomeau) wrote:
> "Cubit" <n...@no.not> wrote in message
> news:<0bvyc.957$cW6...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
> > Thanks for the tip. I searched two supermarkets and a Hispanic
> > butcher shop today before seeing your reply. I didn't know to
> > look for
> > "Manteca."
> >
> > Safeway had a large tub of hydrogenated lard for under $5. The
> > butcher shop had large and small tubs, but they were also
> > hydrogenated/ full
> > of transfats.
> There is no such thing as hydrogenated lard. Lard is rendered pork
> fat and it is not hydrogenated. Vegetable oils are hydrogenated so
> that
> they are solid at room temp and have a texture similar to lard, it
> is then called shortening. Lard contains little or no trans fats,
> shortening is loaded with trans fats.
>
> Pork fat rules!
Cubit's right. There is hydrogenated lard being sold. Armour adds
hydrogenated lard to their lard for longer shelf life. All the lards
sold in my Kroger's have hydrogenated lard added. It sucks, but it's
the truth.
Take care,
Carmen
revek
> and it is not hydrogenated. Vegetable oils are hydrogenated so that
> they are solid at room temp and have a texture similar to lard, it is
> then called shortening. Lard contains little or no trans fats,
> shortening is loaded with trans fats.
>
> Pork fat rules!
Label says:
Armour® lard and hydrogenated lard bha, propyl gallate and citric acid
added to help protect flavor
right there on the front in big letters
The other side says the same thing (manteca) in spanish.
Ingredients list found directly under the nutritional panel.
Ingredients: prepared from lard and hydrogenated lard, bha, propyl gallate
and citric acid added as preservatives.
distributed by ConAgra Foods®
I imagine the OP got the idea from the label. It is probably hydrogenated
vegetable oil (shortening) but wouldn't it say so on the label? I mean this
is ConAgra, who most definitely knows better. Perhaps we should write the
company and ask what they mean by hydrogenated lard.
revek
Bob (this one)
> To be more accurate, the labels said that the tubs contained Lard
> and Hydrogenated Lard.
>
> As I understand it, hydrogenation was developed at the beginning of
> the 20th century as a technique for preventing spoilage. I guess
> the microbes know there is something wrong with the food. One tub
> actually said that it does not need refrigeration.
"microbes know...?"
Read soemthing about hydrogenation before posting what you obviously
know nothing about.
I guess microbes know that salt is dangerous, and sugar, and
dehydration and canning and...
Pastorio
Jackie Patti
> What I prefer for myself is a form of the Anabolic Diet, or CKD, tailored to
> my specific needs. Which gets to the point. If you're going to use low carb
> as a vehicle for weight loss, you need to do some experimenting with it to
> see what works for you. Your diet plan should be tailored to your specific
> needs. If salads and vegetables work for you, then fine. But to say they are
> mandatory is total hogwash.
I disagree.
I think shunning vegetables for a short-term diet is fine, provided
supplements are taken. One is unlikely to die from it, even if it does
not produce optimum health.
I do not personally believe one can supplement indefinetly without harm
to health; I doubt we've discovered all the micronutrients necessary for
optimum health as of yet.
But I do not consider low-carb to be a short-term diet. As a
*permanent* diet, a large intake of a wide variety of vegetables is
necessary for micronutrients if one wishes to be healthy.
A meat-only type diet only works well if one eats *all* the meat so as
to get a wide variety of micronutrients; it doesn't work well if one
sticks to "cuts."
I would personally rather eat salads than organ meats and intestine
contents and such.
--
As you accelerate your food, it takes exponentially more and more energy
to increase its velocity, until you hit a limit at C. This energy has
to come from somewhere; in this case, from the food's nutritional value.
Thus, the faster the food is, the worse it gets.
-- Mark Hughes, comprehending the taste of fast food
JC Der Koenig
news:10cmcr7...@corp.supernews.com...
> JC Der Koenig wrote:
>
> > What I prefer for myself is a form of the Anabolic Diet, or CKD,
tailored to
> > my specific needs. Which gets to the point. If you're going to use low
carb
> > as a vehicle for weight loss, you need to do some experimenting with it
to
> > see what works for you. Your diet plan should be tailored to your
specific
> > needs. If salads and vegetables work for you, then fine. But to say they
are
> > mandatory is total hogwash.
>
> I disagree.
>
> I think shunning vegetables for a short-term diet is fine, provided
> supplements are taken. One is unlikely to die from it, even if it does
> not produce optimum health.
>
It's funny though, that I seem to be healthier than you.
> I do not personally believe one can supplement indefinetly without harm
> to health; I doubt we've discovered all the micronutrients necessary for
> optimum health as of yet.
>
I don't use supplements, and certainly not "indefinitely".
(There are those big words again)
> But I do not consider low-carb to be a short-term diet. As a
> *permanent* diet, a large intake of a wide variety of vegetables is
> necessary for micronutrients if one wishes to be healthy.
>
> A meat-only type diet only works well if one eats *all* the meat so as
> to get a wide variety of micronutrients; it doesn't work well if one
> sticks to "cuts."
>
> I would personally rather eat salads than organ meats and intestine
> contents and such.
>
Think sausage.
Bob (this one)
> I would personally rather eat salads than organ meats and intestine
> contents and such.
A classic, old family recipe I just invented:
Les contents des intestines a la mode
1 intestine with contents
1 bottle gin (or more, as needed)
water to cover
seasonings to taste
Poach the intestines and whatever's inside them whole in the water
with some seasonings for maybe, like 20 minutes or more if you like.
How the hell should I know what kind of seasonings? You think I eat
stuff like this? Any freakin seasonings; they won't help anyway.
Steadily drink gin while poaching intestines with contents. Remove
intestines with all their contents from the poaching water and cool.
Drink more gin. Eat intestines with contents if you remember to. Drink
a lot of gin to get the taste of the intestines with their contents
out of your mouth and out of your memory.
Connoisseurs prefer the small intestine because things haven't
proceeded quite as far along the digestive trail and there might still
be solids in there. Have another swig of that gin.
Actually, they more likely ate *stomach* contents. Way better, huh?
Have some more gin.
Pastorio
Jackie Patti
> It's funny though, that I seem to be healthier than you.
n=1 does not a study make; you know this.
Vegetables are good for you whether you choose to eat them or not.
>>I would personally rather eat salads than organ meats and intestine
>>contents and such.
>
> Think sausage.
even in those cases where natural casings are used; they remove the
intestinal contents before using the casings.
My cats eat a lot of intestinal contents (as well as organ meats) given
that they seem to wolf down mice and rabbits in their entirety. I do
not particularly envy them their diet though.
Cubit
section of strip mall next to it that burned.
I found several brands of lard there. Some of them said "Manteca" on them.
All of them had hydrogenation. However, in the same section was a product
called "INCA." It is a 2.4 pound white block of fat in a plastic wrapper.
Ingredients show animal fat and vegetable fat. (No Hydrogenation) Made in
Mexico. I bought a block. It is odorless and tasteless. It has the
consistency of lard. I mixed some with powdered Splenda using a fork. The
result was similar to Oreo stuffing. I need to blend the Splenda better and
maybe add some vanilla extract. I'm guessing I'll need an emulsifier to mix
it with liquid Splenda.
I'll bet this stuff would make a good lube for a garage door worm gear.
"Cubit" <n...@no.not> wrote in message
news:0bvyc.957$cW6...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
jamie
> Cubit wrote:
>>
>> Any ideas on ... or where to buy pure lard?
>> I have never seen tallow in the store.
>
> If your grocery has a Hispanic section, look for a red box
> labelled Manteca. It's lard in quarters like sticks of
> butter. Much better than vegitable shortening that has
> transfats.
I'm not sure if I've seen Manteca (probably have, in TX), but I think
all the bricks and buckets of lard that I've seen were partially
hydrogenated.
On the other hand, I stumbled across a container of LouAnn coconut
oil at WalMart last week -- label says, "ingredient: coconut oil"
--
jamie (jami...@newsguy.com)
"There's a seeker born every minute."
JC Der Koenig
> JC Der Koenig wrote:
>
> > It's funny though, that I seem to be healthier than you.
>
> n=1 does not a study make; you know this.
>
> Vegetables are good for you whether you choose to eat them or not.
>
>
And real proof is required, not a simple appeal to authority.
Cubit
processes used for hydrogenation seem to be corporate secrets.
Many foods that were in the diet before the 1950s were just assumed to be
safe.
"Bob (this one)" <B...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:10cm97f...@corp.supernews.com...
Jackie Patti
<snip>
Thanks for the recipe; I'll keep it on hand for that time when it looks
better than another salad. For variety, dontcha know.
> Actually, they more likely ate *stomach* contents. Way better, huh? Have
> some more gin.
I'd guess that would be a tad acidic.
Jackie Patti
> "Jackie Patti" <jpa...@ccil.org> wrote in message
> news:10cmglf...@corp.supernews.com...
>>Vegetables are good for you whether you choose to eat them or not.
>
> Prove it.
> And real proof is required, not a simple appeal to authority.
Why would I do that?
jamie
> There is no such thing as hydrogenated lard. Lard is rendered pork fat
> and it is not hydrogenated.
I haven't seen any lard in supermarkets that wasn't partially
hydrogenated. From what I've seen of trimmings from pork, it seems
to be only semi-solid at room temperature.
JC Der Koenig
> JC Der Koenig wrote:
>
> > "Jackie Patti" <jpa...@ccil.org> wrote in message
> > news:10cmglf...@corp.supernews.com...
> >>Vegetables are good for you whether you choose to eat them or not.
> >
> > Prove it.
> > And real proof is required, not a simple appeal to authority.
>
> Why would I do that?
>
Exactly. So the statements "vegetables are good for you" and "vegetables
are mandatory" are conjecture at best.
Pizza Gurl
"Cubit" <n...@no.not> wrote in message
news:0bvyc.957$cW6...@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
Werdna
> Safeway had a large tub of hydrogenated lard for under $5. The butcher shop
> had large and small tubs, but they were also hydrogenated/ full of
> transfats.
I've found non-hydrogenated lard at Smart & Final, you may have luck
there or in similar resteuraunt supply places. I had to buy a 25-lb
box of it, but it was pretty cheap.
Why the hell they would hydrogenate something that is stable at room
temperature indefinatly is beyond me.
Priscilla Ballou
Ignoramus8649 <ignora...@NOSPAM.8649.invalid> wrote:
> People, the closest thing to what was meant by "lard" in the OP that
> you could buy, is raw (cured, but not fried) Oscar Mayer bacon.
>
> Poles do not eat rendered lard much, other than maybe for frying, what
> they do eat is salted pork fat that the article PROBABLY mistranslated
> as "lard".
That sounds more like salt pork than bacon. That's what I buy for baked
beans (may they now rest in LC peace) and chowders.
Lard is good in pie crust, but that's also a distant memory.
Priscilla
--
"This religion [Christianity] isn't for sissies." - my friend Jane
"Being in the church is sometimes like doing the Bunny Hop."
- my same friend Jane
Cubit
Valley. I buy boxes of hotdogs and bags of grated cheese there.
How cheap is "pretty cheap?"
25 pounds would be 102400 calories per box. At 1400 calories per day, that
would last 73 days. This could be a good item for emergency food storage.
In the past I bought a 25 pound sack of rice in case of emergency/famine.
"Werdna" <Tilt...@mailblocks.com> wrote in message
news:acef81c9.04061...@posting.google.com...
Gregoriowicz
"xlmcn" <xl...@ctoue.com> wrote in message
news:jdmzc.18735$H65....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Ignoramus8649 wrote:
>
> > In article <acef81c9.04061...@posting.google.com>, Werdna
wrote:
> > you could buy, is raw (cured, but not fried) Oscar Mayer bacon.
> >
> > Poles do not eat rendered lard much, other than maybe for frying,
what
> > they do eat is salted pork fat that the article PROBABLY
mistranslated
> > as "lard".
> >
> > ask for "salo", which is the term for salted pork fat.
>
> Maybe the Russian term but not the Polish one.
> In Polish "sadło" means tallow, suet,
Not true! It means pork *tissue* (unrendered) from around the kidneys
and
other internal organs.
You are describing what is called "smelc", or lard.
"Slonina" is simply pork belly. It could also be of the back and sides
of a porker.
Pork fat and/or bacon drippings (in semi-soli state, when cooled) in
Polish is called "smelc". In poorer Polish families was and still is
used as a substitute for butter and margarine - on bread.
> ("słony" means "salt(y)"), "lard" is rendered pork fat, "boczek" is
just bacon.
>
> > If you want to eat something similar to that salted pork fat, pieces
> > of un-sliced "bacon" may be sold at a regular food supermarket.
>
> "Słonina" is much more fatty than "boczek".
Baloooney....same thing, but 'boczek' from sided or belly of a Polska
swinia.:-))
> > They are sold at our grocery store here. It has more meat than
"salo"
> > would, but still 90+% of calories in there come from fat.
> >
>
Priscilla Ballou
Ignoramus8649 <ignora...@NOSPAM.8649.invalid> wrote:
> In article <vze23t8n-60FBC4...@news.verizon.net>, Priscilla
> Ballou wrote:
> > In article <cakn59$lcm$0...@pita.alt.net>,
> > Ignoramus8649 <ignora...@NOSPAM.8649.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> People, the closest thing to what was meant by "lard" in the OP that
> >> you could buy, is raw (cured, but not fried) Oscar Mayer bacon.
> >>
> >> Poles do not eat rendered lard much, other than maybe for frying, what
> >> they do eat is salted pork fat that the article PROBABLY mistranslated
> >> as "lard".
> >
> > That sounds more like salt pork than bacon.
>
> except some salt pork is pretty much salted meat and not salted fat.
Not that I've ever found. Usually I have trouble finding a piece that
has a decent streak of lean running through it.
> > That's what I buy for baked
> > beans (may they now rest in LC peace) and chowders.
> >
> > Lard is good in pie crust, but that's also a distant memory.
>
> Surely beats shortening...
Amen!
Hugh
health is one that is low in fat and high in grains, fruits and
vegetables. I have reached the conclusion that this is a total lie,
initially foisted on us by a bunch of leftist food scientists keen to
promote vegetarianism as a healthy alternative to meat eating, and
then perpetrated by vested interests in the food and pharmaceuticals
industries. By carrying out studies that selectively look at certain
human populations while completely ignoring others, they have drawn a
set of utterly false conclusions. The reality, demonstrated by our
anatomy and the history of our race, is that we are by nature every
bit as carnivorous as wolves or lions.
One clue is our jaws and teeth. They are quite unusual compared with
those of other primates, and much less heavily built than those of our
(largely vegetarian) nearest primate relatives, gorillas and
chimpanzees. They are also much less developed than those of most
carnivores, but a crucial difference between man and all other animals
is our use of weapons, tools and fire. Human hunters kill their prey
with weapons such as spears and arrows (or traps or fishing lines
etc), we don't use our teeth for killing prey. We cut up our prey with
tools, so powerful jaws aren't needed for this task either. Humans
have also had fire for as long as the human race has existed, and we
almost always cook our food. Besides killing any parasites that might
be present, this has the effect of making meat more tender and easy to
eat than when it is raw. This means that our small teeth and
diminutive jaw are fully up to the job of eating a meat diet. If you
try eating some (cooked) cuts of meat with just your hands and teeth,
you'll find that our teeth are very efficient at stripping cooked meat
off the bone.
Another clue is our digestive system. It isn't much use for a
plant-based diet, because, like that of other carnivores, it is too
short to extract much nutriment from plant tissue, and is completely
unable to digest cellulose. The human digestive system can cope very
well with an all-meat diet, however. One example are the Inuit (or
eskimos as they are commonly known). Their traditional diet consists
solely of meat, blubber and fish. Yet those following their
traditional diet enjoy good health (and the lowest rate of heart
disease of any human population group) despite living in an extremely
harsh environment.
Our brain is much larger than that of gorillas and chimpanzees. Brain
tissue is extremely energy-hungry, which is why carnivores tend to
have larger brains than herbivores - herbivores have to consume far
larger quantities of food than carnivores to supply the same amount of
energy, so they can't afford the luxury of a large brain. The only
animals with a body mass and brain size roughly comparable to our own
are the (totally carnivorous) dolphins.
Perhaps the most telling clue as to what humans are all about is the
wave of extinctions that followed mankind’s spread around the globe.
With the exception of Africa, every land mass occupied by humans has
seen the extinction of all large animals ("megafauna") within a few
thousand years of the arrival of humans. Humans were (and are)
phenomenally successful hunters. Our birth as a species was into a
world where there was a superabundance of easy prey, and early humans
clearly took full advantage of that. For most of the history of the
human race the population was small, from a few hundred thousand to a
few million. Despite that, humans managed to hunt species after
species into extinction, moving further and further afield in search
of easy prey until they had colonised the whole planet.
It was only much later, as the population continued to grow and all
the easy prey had been slaughtered, that people turned to agriculture.
Thus, agriculture and plant-based foods are a recent innovation, not
our natural diet. We are primarily carnivores, who happen to have
retained a limited ability to digest vegetable matter when our
preferred food is in short supply. It is therefore no surprise that
plant-based foods (cereals, bread, pasta etc) elicit a "famine
response" in our bodies, leading to excessive fat storage and type 2
diabetes.
The natural food of carnivores is meat and fat. Carnivores typically
derive most of their calories from fat, it is the most energy dense
and easiest to digest of all foods. When prey is abundant, they often
eat just the fat from their kills, leaving the lean meat for
scavengers. This is the sort of diet that early humans, with a
superabundance of prey, most likely consumed. No wonder high-fat diets
such as Atkins have such success, it is simply because they are giving
us the food we have evolved to eat. The epidemic of obesity, diabetes
and heart disease that is now sweeping the world is not primarily due
to overeating or lack of exercise, but rather it is due to
insufficient dietary fat and chronic overexposure to carbohydrates.
Unfortunately there are many vested interests who want to hide this
simple truth, from the politically correct animal rights brigade to
the food industry (who like the low raw materials cost, ease of
storage and long shelf life of plant-based foods), and now even the
pharmaceuticals industry, who make much of their profits from drugs to
treat obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart disease.
ma...@toad-net.com
Without going into the nutritional merits of one diet or another, most of
the info in this post can not be supported in research. It is interesting
to note that many of the digestion/tooth info has been used in a directly
oppisite way as support by the veggie alone folk, both are wrong. Humans
are made to and do eat anything they can get their hands on and what that
is depends on where they live and what that enviroment supports. The
political crack is beyond comment and the "evil them" motivation an empty
bit of theology often evoked where evidence to the contray is absent and
appeals to emotion a poor weak second best.
>wave of extinctions that followed mankinds spread around the globe.
willbill
> Dieticians have told us for decades that the optimum diet for good
> health is one that is low in fat
b.s.
only some dieticians have bought into the nonsense
of "low fat" diets
for man, vegetables and fruits are *the* proven
food groups (in that order)
> and high in grains, fruits and vegetables.
this part is true. :)
> I have reached the conclusion that this is a total lie,
more b.s.
<snip remainder>
bill t1 since '57
Doug Freyburger
>
> So the statements "vegetables are good for you" and "vegetables
> are mandatory" are conjecture at best.
The folks on sci.med.nutrition must have loved it when you
called it conjecture that eating veggies is good for you.
I originally posted that veggies are mandatory while on Atkins.
Deny that if you wish but doing so only says you've never read
his books.
As you veggies being mandatory *in general*, I understand that
there are certain societies were folks are healthy yet they
almost never eat veggies. A few very low population societies
in extreme climates, like the few Inuits who still live the
traditional hunting lifestyle on the ice. But take humanity
as a statistical grouping and you'll see those societies are
well out on the edge of the bell curve. Calling veggies
mandatory *in general* is an over generalization that tends to
work just fine. Sure, you can find exceptions if you work
hard enough. Go for it and don't eat veggies if you don't
want to. You're not on Atkins so they aren't mandatory for
you anyways.
Cubit
Your idea that vegetables and fruit trigger a famine response is important.
It makes so much sense.
I think your post will prove to be the truth. However, I believe it largely
in the same way as a religious belief. New studies with proper protocols
are needed. We need someone like Bill Gates to be inspired by all this and
fund some real science.
It might make sense for animals in time of famine to have longer lifespans.
For evolution, fast generations in times of plenty would make a species more
adaptable. Will meat eaters be like the lightbulb that burns too bright?
Also, it is curious that, unlike many animals, humans cannot make their own
vitamin C. Do people eating only meat get scurvy? Were the sailors of old
eating a lot of bread?
Cubit
"Hugh" <might...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:40cee281...@news.btopenworld.com...
Jim Bard
"Cubit" <n...@no.not> wrote in message
> Also, it is curious that, unlike many animals, humans cannot make their
own
> vitamin C. Do people eating only meat get scurvy? Were the sailors of
old
> eating a lot of bread?
>
> Cubit
I believe the scurvy-prone sailors of old ate primarily dried bread and
dried pork or beef. It is possible to survive entirely on meat without
contracting scurvy as the meat of most animals contain enough vitamin C to
prevent the disease. An explorer named Stefansson, in the earlier part of
the 20th century, observed that the Inuit (Eskimos) of northern Canada and
Alaska ate almost nothing but meat most of the year and remained quite
healthy. He went on a yearlong meat-only diet under medical supervision and
also remained quite healthy.
Since ascorbic acid (vitamin C is a water-based vitamin and apparently
destroyed by heat, the meat must both be fresh and either raw or lightly
cooked in order for it to be of benefit.
Hugh
>
>Without going into the nutritional merits of one diet or another, most of
>the info in this post can not be supported in research. It is interesting
>to note that many of the digestion/tooth info has been used in a directly
>oppisite way as support by the veggie alone folk, both are wrong.
I'd be interested to know how anyone could claim our teeth and
digestion are suited to a herbivorous diet. The teeth of herbivores
typically have an open root structure which allows them to grow
continuously, otherwise they would soon be worn away by all the
chewing that herbivores have to do. Our teeth, once formed, don't grow
any further. I've seen pictures of ancient human teeth worn through
because their owners had to subsist on a poor quality, grain-based
diet. As for our digestive system, it has no ability to digest
cellulose and is clearly not well adapted to processing vegetable
matter. The only reason that people can eat a high-carbohydrate diet
now is that it has been "pre-digested" by modern processing techniques
(also, thousands of years of selective breeding have produced
easy-to-eat plant foods such as corn and fruits).
> Humans
>are made to and do eat anything they can get their hands on and what that
>is depends on where they live and what that enviroment supports. The
>political crack is beyond comment and the "evil them" motivation an empty
>bit of theology often evoked where evidence to the contray is absent and
>appeals to emotion a poor weak second best.
>
Nonetheless, you have to accept that human diet is a highly
contentious and heavily politicised topic. Look at the underhand
techniques the animal rights extremists are currently using to try and
discredit the Atkins diet, for instance. And it is a fact that there
are a lot of very powerful vested interests that stand to lose out big
time if it ever becomes widely accepted that meat is good for you
while cereals and other sugar-based foods are harmful.
Robert Klute
opportunistic grazer - fruits, nuts/seeds, roots, legumes, insects, etc.
Basically a diet similar to other apes. Then at some point began eating
meat. This allowed man to grow larger, both in musculature and brain
size. The development of civilization, as we know it, though required
the cultivation and consumption of grains. It was this step that gave
man the predictable spare time to build instead of forage.
Tony Lew
>
> Your idea that vegetables and fruit trigger a famine response is important.
> It makes so much sense.
>
> I think your post will prove to be the truth. However, I believe it largely
> in the same way as a religious belief.
Or maybe a political belief. Meat has for much of recent human history
been the food of the rich, while grains were the food of the poor.
Some people see eating a lot of meat as being greedy the way some
see driving SUV's and using a lot of gas as greedy.
SpicaTC50
robert_klut...@hp.com says...
From what I understand, it wasn't until we began to eat fish did our brains
really evolve to it's present size due to the Omega 3's. This was a report on
a research article I read in the Philly Inquirer about 8 months ago.
Robert Klute
>"Cubit" <n...@no.not> wrote in message news:<GbHzc.86280$ZL7....@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com>...
>> I loved your post.
>>
>> Your idea that vegetables and fruit trigger a famine response is important.
>> It makes so much sense.
>>
>> I think your post will prove to be the truth. However, I believe it largely
>> in the same way as a religious belief.
>
>Or maybe a political belief. Meat has for much of recent human history
>been the food of the rich, while grains were the food of the poor.
>Some people see eating a lot of meat as being greedy the way some
>see driving SUV's and using a lot of gas as greedy.
Meat was an efficient food source, up until recently. Meat was a luxury
in part because the animal provided other benefits that stopped once the
animal was slaughtered. Thus slaughter was deferred until the animal
was no longer providing other valuable or the food supply ended (such as
winter rolling around). Pigs ate scraps and thus were a cheap way to
store food ( that otherwise would go, or had gone, bad ) for the winter.
Cows ate grasses from untilled or fallow land and provided milk and
eventually leather. Sheep also ate fallow or hard to till pasture land
and provided wool. Chickens ate excess seed and grain, provided eggs
and finally meat when egg production slowed. Goats ate just about
anything and provided milk.
It is only in 'modern' times, where agribusiness has lowered the cost of
animal feed, that meat production has become a 'greedy' endeavor. Even
so, much of the food stock for animals comes from the byproducts of
human food production and doesn't siphon off human consumables or raise
the cost of grains and legumes. If anything, the ability for
agribusiness to recover income from sources that would otherwise go to
waste lowers the price of grains, legumes, and rice.
Bob (this one)
> An tangential hypothesis I have seen is that man started out as an
> opportunistic grazer - fruits, nuts/seeds, roots, legumes, insects, etc.
> Basically a diet similar to other apes. Then at some point began eating
> meat. This allowed man to grow larger, both in musculature and brain
> size. The development of civilization, as we know it, though required
> the cultivation and consumption of grains.
Perhaps it can be seen not as a matter of grains, but as a matter of
settled communities that grew food rather than hunting for it. Some
places did grains, others did root vegetables, others grew fruit (like
tomatoes). It was the communal environment that created the other
possibilities.
Pastorio
Bob (this one)
C'mon. As though anyone knows when we started eating fish...
Pastorio