We chronically complain about our medical system.
This is to be expected since we to find a scape goat
But we elevate this profession to a silly level and
we even infect them with the idea that they are some
form of a god.
Then we should expect them to take full advantage of the
The result is a upward spiral in costs.
We allow drug companies to elevate them selves and
have laws that reduce competition. NO real cost
Then when to cost is a great burden to us
we chronically complain.
A doctor gave me an example where a plumber was
making more money than he was.
What we get is exactly what we allow to happen.
As you recall, I'm a member of DIF (Diabetics International Foundation).
Right now, it's focused on bringing beef and pork insulin back into the US
market. We are just getting started and have a few proposals out for
funding from other nonprofit organizations. We have not asked the DM
community for help as yet and we all donate our time, to date.
As I mentioned in the Beav threads in the Jan-Feb time frame, I'd like to
make DIF into a watchdog organization for all DMs. I envision some lobbyist
organization in Washington, DC, to promote our cause and to hold the line
against the pharmaceutical companies. I see the need for some balancing
force to strike equilibrium between profit and humanitarian agendas. But
obviously, this takes money.
I'm open to any ideas you would like to discuss. Email me as well. Thx,
Jim Dumas, j-d...@mindspring.com (remove dontSPAMME)
T1 4/86, background retinopathy, rarely HG: <1/mo.
lispro+R+U+NPH daily, moderate exercise, <6% HbA1c typ.
If you have then sorry for wasting your time. If not they are a very
clued-up organisation. They could certainly help you with their
experiences and work around that problem for US members.
flying.rat at btclick.com
> have you been in contact with IDDT?
> They are an organisation which campaigns for just that cause, the
> pork/beef issue, and others around insulin use.
> If you have then sorry for wasting your time. If not they are a very
> clued-up organisation. They could certainly help you with their
> experiences and work around that problem for US members.
I email Bruce Beale often and have been friends with him since 1994. But
Groves and Beale are mortal enemies (don't ask me why). So this is not
politically correct for me to do at this time, (I rarely mention the other
to either of them as it sinks the boat).
But thanks for mentioning it,
You're not the first one to tell me this. Others have asked me to contact
them when Groves is gone. So I'll add your name to that list. OK?
I understand your frustration,
I think I could trash any board of directors of any company if I wanted to
find flaws. Nobody is perfect. (Just watched Nightly Business Report on PBS
and the commentator said "Bring back Jack to the GE Board, I don't care if he
had an affair and his wife filed for divorce!")
So it will be difficult to keep everybody happy.
But you lose for sure if you fail to participate. So talk to me,
The way our system works is sales brings in the money. So we have a PhD in
business as our CEO. Then a banker as the treasurer and point man for
funding. So Groves is out of the picture when it comes to the money. But he
has had beaucoup energy and we other board members just let him go as it has
been cheap labor for the web site. The man has lost a few issues via
Robert's rules of order but like the Ever Ready Bunny, he keeps going.
> > But you lose for sure if you fail to participate.
> I depends on what you are participating in, many endeavours can do far
> more harm than good.
At this juncture, there is no other political organization to fill this void
for the patient (we DMs). So it's better to keep your fingers on this
democratic pulse. You have an inside track through me and it's free (no
So talk to me and I'll put it on the agenda,
> Maybe I did not make myself clear. I would never be interested
> in ANY organisation with Groves in ANY type of leadership
> role period! So unless you would like
> to see me post some of his more "interesting" posts here
sure, post away! might liven up this dump! :)
> to further make my point, I suggest we drop the subject
> until such a time when Mr. Groves and Ms. Hunt are no longer
> "in charge" / involved.
> jim dumas wrote:
>> At this juncture, there is no other political organization to fill this void
>> for the patient (we DMs). So it's better to keep your fingers on this
>> democratic pulse. You have an inside track through me and it's free (no
> If Dave's World is all we have, may God help us all. As long as you
> align yourself with that group, you will never be taken seriously.
nice wording. :)
(if only coz it avoids the direct slam of jimmy.)
and no, i'm not defending or supporting either jimmy
or groves. heavens! :0)
anyhoo... all this palaver 'tween you 'n jimmy
makes me wonder why he's involved with DIF/groves?
i mean, he's never used either beef nor pork insulin
perhaps the same goes for you, in the past, with your
own involvement with groves?
i mean, have you ever used beef insulin?
bill t1 since '57, beef insulin '57-~'68, '98-on
> willbill <gk7REMO...@netzero.net> wrote:
>> ga...@xxx.netgee.com (Gary Ennis) wrote (to jimmy):
>>> Maybe I did not make myself clear. I would never be interested
>>> in ANY organisation with Groves in ANY type of leadership
>>> role period! So unless you would like
>>> to see me post some of his more "interesting" posts here
>> sure, post away! might liven up this dump! :)
> If it will make you happy.............................. no.
> If this is such a dump,
playful slang, gary. :0)
i mean hey, *you* were the one who made
the offer (underlined by me above)
> why don't you find some place else?
this is the best place. :)
> No need to answer, not really interested!
>>> If Dave's World is all we have, may God help us all. As long as you
>>> align yourself with that group, you will never be taken seriously.
>> nice wording. :)
>> (if only coz it avoids the direct slam of jimmy.)
>> and no, i'm not defending or supporting either jimmy
>> or groves. heavens! :0)
> So, that should interest me?
>> anyhoo... all this palaver 'tween you 'n jimmy
>> makes me wonder why he's involved with DIF/groves?
> Ask Jim.
>> i mean, he's never used either beef nor pork insulin
> So, does that make him evil? Again, don't bother answering, I am not
> really interested.
don't let that palaver word toss you off.
i said "wonder", gary, not "evil"
also, interesting repetition of "not interested"
you're the man when it comes to sly
>> perhaps the same goes for you, in the past, with your
>> own involvement with groves?
>> i mean, have you ever used beef insulin?
> Yes I have, both Lilly's and CP's.
1st straight thing you've said. :)
for how long?
> Unlike some, I have tried almost
> every type of insulin I could get my hands on.
> So Mr. Bill, once again, you keep coming back to me like
> a gnat on a dog's weaner!..... Sorry could not resist!
interesting how the wording goes when there's
a hint or mention of your involment with groves
> Still love ya,
more weasel words from ennis. :(
Hmmm. Looks like I've been promoted from Lessee to jimmy.
Hmmm. I like it. It has a familiar ring to it.
> anyhoo... all this palaver 'tween you 'n jimmy
> makes me wonder why he's involved with DIF/groves?
> i mean, he's never used either beef nor pork insulin
> perhaps the same goes for you, in the past, with your
> own involvement with groves?
> i mean, have you ever used beef insulin?
Dear Beef'n Bill,
I have enough trouble with antibodies to human insulin already. This would
just get worse with beef insulin. So I'll stay with the Devil I know.
But now that you mention it, would you like to join DIF?
Thanks for the beef,
> But now that you mention it, would you like to join DIF?
nope, not me
> Thanks for the beef,
the problem with details is the same as none: where's the beef?
> willbill wrote:
>> i mean, he's never used either beef nor pork insulin
> Dear Beef'n Bill,
> I have enough trouble with antibodies to human insulin already. This would
> just get worse with beef insulin. So I'll stay with the Devil I know.
ahhh, jimmy, it's you and the bloody antibodies again...
geez louise. :(
can't help you directly with a decision on using beef
but indirectly the gloves can come off...
for starters, you might get a clue on what you are
presently doing. >:->
to me you appear to be sporatically using (starting/stopping)
two of the new analog molecules. (i.e. lispro and aspart.)
on top of that, these are new, completely foreign proteins,
designed by big pharma. to me that means they'll likely
be more problematic than human insulin
iow, if starting/stopping was/is a problem with beef,
why wouldn't it be a problem with lispro and aspart?
just coz FDA gives them the "approval" stamp, it still
needs a bit of caution
so just coz big pharma calls them "wonderful"
analogs of human insulin, that doesn't make it
safe to start/stop them repeatedly
following big pharma's lead, beef is also
a wonderful analog of human insulin
and unlike the new lispro and aspart, beef is
for hundreds of thousands of years by cattle,
and 80 years by *real* human diabetics
You did make yourself clear. But the whole idea is to get everybody talking
under one roof. This means we must find common ground and table all issues
that cause friction. My approach with Groves is to ignore his views that are
not in common with my own and work on issues we can agree on. This also
means my engine is idling because he wants to do everything himself.
Eventually, he'll ask for more help and I'll negotiate him away from the
public. I'm a very patient person. But like the lottery, you'll never win
if you don't play.
> If Dave's World is all we have, may God help us all. As long as you
> align yourself with that group, you will never be taken seriously.
> So to quote you, "You're not the first one to tell me this. Others
> have asked me to contact them when Groves is gone. So I'll add your
> name to that list. OK?"
> To that I reply, when and if that time comes, give me a call and we
> will see what you got, until then, I will publicly distance myself
> form any group who's "leader" believes amongst other things that there
> is an ongoing "deliberate genocide of diabetics". Nuff said?
His genocide fixation is one that I ignore. I wag my head and move him on to
a more productive topic. He has the right to believe and express his views
as we all do. Since DIF is democratic, he is on a leash when it comes to
expenditures; and, I don't care what he does so long as it doesn't cost me
any money. Eventually, peer pressure will bring him into line as he will
have to form some coalition to achieve his goals.
Patience is the key and I'm busy with other things anyway,
Well, the stopping is like stopping for a year or two so the antibody
concentrations disappear almost completely. But I still use Humalog and
Humulin R/NPH/U everyday. It's just the Novolog I tinker with now and then
on the theory the antibodies have yet to form for it. But my very first dose
(clearly no antibodies yet) had a 4 hour primary peak of insulin action. The
expected peak was 1-2 hours. So my current insulin therapy has antibodies
that bind strongly to Novolog already. So I went back to take a closer look
at Humalog to find it peaks in the 0.5-1.75 hour time frame (dose size
dependent of course). All dosing was in the abdominal region for speed and
consistent skin temperature for consistent absorption kinetics. This
suggests Humalog is not immunogenic as I thought a few months ago. (So I must
agree with Lilly's statement that Humalog is not immunogenic. It is clearly
not causing up-regulation of IGF plasma binding proteins either.) But the
Humulin insulins are instead. So I'll start to take a closer look at Humulin
R when I finish my thesis as it really will not matter to the math in the
thesis. I'm tweaking weighting functions for the data so the BG data is not
uniformly weighted (so correlation coefficients are useless and I can patent
the results through the University to use their $ and clout against big
business intellectual theft). The weighting function is like a Blackman
window in digital signal processing, as an example.
> just coz FDA gives them the "approval" stamp, it still
> needs a bit of caution
> so just coz big pharma calls them "wonderful"
> analogs of human insulin, that doesn't make it
> safe to start/stop them repeatedly
> following big pharma's lead, beef is also
> a wonderful analog of human insulin
Indeed. So is rat insulin.
> and unlike the new lispro and aspart, beef is
> time tested
> for hundreds of thousands of years by cattle,
> and 80 years by *real* human diabetics
Indeed. When I was sitting in Sen Specter's office two years ago waiting for
the meeting to start, one of the other beef using DIF members was showing me
a rash on her hands. She said this comes and goes and she tolerates it from
childhood about the time she became a type 1. (She had been a type 1 for 56
years and it was a joy to see Groves get clobbered by an older elder
states-person: "I've been fighting DM for 56 years. Dave, when you make it
to 56 years, you can question me." This went over like a lead balloon. This
seems to be a common hot-button issue with older DMs. So I circumvent this
classic suck-you-in argument.) The meeting started and we stopped talking.
But clearly her immune system was malfunctioning and she may be allergic to
beef insulin. But she wants to use beef insulin so I'll continue to support
Our issue is you want antibodies and I don't. But that's OK,
> Patience won't change the past.
We, as Society, tend to forgive the mistakes of others.
Particularly after they've passed on. Just human nature,
Clearly, it's too early to know if it's not a valid argument.
Cool your jets. Life is never as you expect,
> I will choose my own path thank you...
We all choose our own path. What else is new,
What you're telling me is you're totally happy with our political and medical
system/environment in the US. There is nothing you'd like to see changed.
(Obviously, the little guy will never effect change so choosing your own path
means you're giving up on the system.)
Is this what you're saying?
Story time: In 1996 I was overcharged for an HbA1c assay by SmithKline
Beecham. I payed the fair market value they charged Columbia HCA and refused
to pay the overcharge. I eventually received a letter from the VP-General
Manager of the Atlanta division that stated they accepted my offer. The
issue was resolved on my terms (hint).
The point, as you should know by now, is I'll find some way to break a
deadlock. It can be a carrot or a stick, but it will be removed.
Now just think what could happen if we work together.
The critical piece of information here was: the same lab was used by Columbia
HCA. When SBCL was pressed for an explanation for the difference in price
they crumbled (because this could never be made public [these dirty little
pricing secrets]). So I said lets go to civil court for the $50 difference.
Then I began to ask for the status of my request for an explanation every
Friday afternoon via the fax [local phone call so didn't cost me a cent and
the PC was wonderfully efficient]. This was to distrub the weekend of the
executive staff. "What a lovely weekend but you guys are not finished
working yet, as I'm your customer and don't you forget it."
Eventually the VP got my message. We really have the upper hand,
One more interesting bit of information. The Atlanta division of SBCL lost a
registered letter I sent them. So now I have a paper trail that shows they
are delinquent. In the meantime, I'm nailing the collection agency with this
paper trail that SBCL failed to inform them about. So they don't have all
the information on this account from their deliquent partner in crime. This
paralyzes the machinery quite nicely. In retrospect, it was a lot of fun
tossing curve balls at these zombies. If it's not in the script they get
confused. So the VP had to get involved and make a final decision over $50.
What a waste of his time for this minor issue. But that's the system,
As I've said to you before, I'm always ready to learn new ideas. What I'm
trying to do is get everybody on the same sheet of music. Moreover, it's
important to realize Mr Groves will not be here forever and the rest of us
should learn how to work together in some political organization to promote
our views. This does not have to be DIF or IDDT. But some organization
would be useful. Do you have any ideas? What are you doing to bring
everybody together under one flag?
Put them on the table for discussion if you do. Don't be shy,
Let's say we DMs have some organization that coordinates this pricing attack
on a lab like SBCL in Atlanta. We all do the same thing en masse. We have
established a fair price for your service and have paid you this amount. We
are not trying to rip you off and will pay the full bill if you provide a
good explanation for the difference. But obviously it is too embarrassing
for SBCL to provide this explanation. So we will bring the fax
machines/email servers down asking for this explanation. The impact on
business will be sobering.
We could even tell them they are on our list of "bad companies" and we will
test the system randomly. We are the end-users (customers!) and we want
service. Get with the program. This is capitalism at work in the
health-care business. What a wonderful system.
So don't get us upset or you'll loose money.
That's the American way. We vote with our dollars,
Clearly I'm serious as I'm a founding member of DIF. Actions speak louder
than words. But I can ask you the same question, are you really serious
about some political organization for DMs?
If so, what can you show me in good faith?
You're not giving me a good feeling that I can work with you.
I've asked for proof that you're sincere. That's all,
Games? What games?
> Good luck.
Thank you Gary.
Just wanted to thank you for starting this thread. It brought back memories
of my hassles with SmithKline Beecham Clinical Labs (I think they may have
been sold off or merged but I have made sure my MD does not use them for my
lab measurements since this incident). That's right, I'm the customer and I
pick the lab.
Once you right the capitalistic ship to focus on the customer, (we DMs), then
the whole system get turned upside down.
I'm the boss and get your act on track or I'll pull the plug,
A few years ago in the Philly area, I walked into a hospital to use their
lab. In six months they had changed things around and now I had to wait for
service to draw some blood for an HbA1c. I had such a hassle that I walked
out and went to another lab.
Capitalism is wonderful. The customer drives the bus,
The first question I ask my MD is:
What is the conversion equation to the "Gold Standard" Bio-Rad HPLC, (the
DCCT methodology), for the lab you use? Oh, you don't know? Then we use my
lab as I do know the conversion equation. Here it is.
I won. Game over. I pick the lab.
A consequence of patient self-empowerment is knowledge. As patients get up
to speed on DM, it's natural for them to take control. It's their life and
it's inevitable for them to jump up with energy, (so obviously you've done a
good job bringing them back to good health), and clobber your codependence.
(I know this is a wirty dord for you. But it saved my live 16 years ago, so
I see it as a positive.)
You should feel good that you helped them. Mission accomplished.
And a heartfelt thank you from this DIF (Gray Ribbon) member,
>Just wanted to thank you for starting this thread. It brought back memories
>of my hassles with SmithKline Beecham Clinical Labs (I think they may have
>been sold off or merged but I have made sure my MD does not use them for my
>lab measurements since this incident). That's right, I'm the customer and I
>pick the lab.
>Once you right the capitalistic ship to focus on the customer, (we DMs), then
>the whole system get turned upside down.
The capitalistic ship will not have much of a problem focusing
on the customer. It is the use of third party payers which
prevents this. Prepaid medical care, mistakenly called insurance,
HMOs, Medicare, etc., are what are messing it up.
>I'm the boss and get your act on track or I'll pull the plug,
Only if you control the money. This is where the problem lies.
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
I've been thinking about the current system where pricing for a service is
never discussed before the service is performed. This permits the company
providing the service to charge excessive prices since the bartering phase of
the transaction is delayed until after the service is given. So I said to
SBCL, I demand the bartering phase for your service since you failed to post
your prices before the phlebotomist drew my blood. Just because SBCL decided
not to enforce this normal phase of a transaction, it doesn't mean I agreed
not to discuss the price before the service was performed. I was never asked
by the lab if I agreed to a specific price for the service and therefore SBCL
performed the transaction at their own risk since the transaction was still
open. I signed a form stating I would pay "something" for the service. But
without an exact price in front of you, you can say anything in the abnormal
delirium of poor health (yes, yes, we'll discuss the price later is implied).
Capitalism is a double-edged sword even for health-care. But the patient
must be an active participant in the process. At the time, I was a small
business paying everything out-of-pocket. So I had control over the
process. When I went into the endo's office, I received a price for his
services before I agreed to see him. So why should other health-care
services be any different? But ER services are clearly rush and fall outside
normal capitalism rules of engagement. The patient is so happy for this
service that (s)he will pay just about anything to the hospital performing
But even with my Blue Cross/Blue Shield PPO, I pick the endo and the lab from
the list. The prices are set as copay and we have an agreement before the
service is performed.
So I still think capitalism can work for the patient,
Great theory but when you have an acute emergency
it is a bit difficult to negotiate. In a normal business
I always fight the fees involved.
The problem is medical care in many phases is
not amenable to negotiation.