Dave Groves in hospital

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Jim Dumas

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Sep 4, 2003, 9:40:29 PM9/4/03
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In the process of chasing down bovine insulin users, I discovered that Dave
Groves had a heart attack and underwent a double bypass a week ago. He is
still in intensive care.

Will post more info when available,
--
Jim Dumas
T1 4/86, background retinopathy, rarely hypoglycemic: <1/mo.
lispro+R+U+NPH daily, moderate exercise, typically <6% HbA1c

willbill

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Sep 4, 2003, 10:20:02 PM9/4/03
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On Fri, 05 Sep 2003 01:40:29 GMT, Jim Dumas <j-d...@de.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote:

> In the process of chasing down bovine insulin users, I discovered that Dave
> Groves had a heart attack and underwent a double bypass a week ago. He is
> still in intensive care.

i am sorry to hear this

T1 dave g groves helped me in '98 and '99 (mainly
in e-mails) with my decision to retry beef insulin

dave is a hard head, but i owe him

bill, T1 since '57, ex -8yr pumper, beef-L 1x, simple MDI/DAFNE

Guy Scharf

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Sep 5, 2003, 6:49:14 PM9/5/03
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Jim Dumas <j-d...@de.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote:

> In the process of chasing down bovine insulin users, I discovered
> that Dave Groves had a heart attack and underwent a double bypass
> a week ago. He is still in intensive care.
>
> Will post more info when available,

I'm very sorry to hear that. Dave managed the CompuServe Diabetes
forum when I was first diagnosed and he was most helpful to everyone.

Guy

Claudia-I am Star

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Sep 5, 2003, 8:25:46 PM9/5/03
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Jim Dumas <j-d...@de.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote...
> I discovered that Dave Groves had a heart attack and
> underwent a double bypass a week ago.
> He is still in intensive care.
> Will post more info when available,...

Turns out that those running his website are trying to
hide the truth !
The posted message about DG, as listed on his website,
Posted by: BigNascarFan - September 5, 2003 (9:50) - 206.185.64.2,
was promptly deleted.
Makes one wonder what they are trying to hide?
Perhaps his clogged arteries were caused by poor control
while on BEEF INSULIN !!
That stuff will kill you everytime.

Jim Dumas

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Sep 5, 2003, 9:47:34 PM9/5/03
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Claudia-I am Star wrote:

*Hey*, be nice Claudia.

I've complained to Dave that his control was poor for years. When I first
met him his HbA1c was 10% on the Bayer DCA 2000. But he claimed his T1
grandmother made it to 96 years old and he was blessed with her genes. He
could therefore ignore current wisdom for maintaining euglycemia.

Dave Groves is a paradox in that he gave out fair to good advice but didn't
follow it himself. He was a heavy cigarette smoker and consumed the
classic southern diet of fried foods. So the picture is more complex than
just the species of insulin he preferred. When I lived in Atlanta, I'd
head out to Birmingham, AL, on Friday night and party with him til the
dancers quit. He was blown lots of money on booze and those girls for a
guy suffering from impotence. (i.e., why torture yourself?)

The man is over 21 years old.

I wonder if the hospital has a supply of bovine insulin. If not, there will
be some lawsuits I suspect.

In any case, he lived in the fast lane and it caught up to him,

Claudia-I am Star

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Sep 6, 2003, 12:14:42 AM9/6/03
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Guy Scharf <g...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> Dave managed the CompuServe Diabetes forum...

CompuServe canceled Dave's diabetes forum because
of his nasty posting.

Then, he went to Bravenet, where that forum was
also deleted because of negative comments
from Dave to anyone who disagreed with him.
Here's the proof:
http://pub2.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=112000736

Seems he feels that Lilly and Advantes are out to
kill diabetics(!?), and only he can save everyone.
Such delusions of grandeur are indeed laughable.

Guy Scharf

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Sep 6, 2003, 12:20:35 AM9/6/03
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Claudi...@MyWay.com (Claudia-I am Star) wrote:

> Guy Scharf <g...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> Dave managed the CompuServe Diabetes forum...
>
> CompuServe canceled Dave's diabetes forum because
> of his nasty posting.

None of which has anything to do with my comments about his
helpfulness. I do vaguely recall that there were problems with
CompuServe, and I certainly remember Dave's passionate and strongly
worded opinions about types of insulin. If I recall properly, the
diabetes forum on CompuServe was recreated under new management.

Not sure what a "deleted account" page is supposed to "prove".

Guy

Jim Dumas

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Sep 6, 2003, 12:20:45 PM9/6/03
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Jim Dumas wrote:

> When I lived in Atlanta, I'd
> head out to Birmingham, AL, on Friday night and party with him til the
> dancers quit. He was blown lots of money on booze and those girls for a
> guy suffering from impotence.

I should also point out that this was his money, (DIF has never paid it's
board members for services and expense accounts were only for Dr. Bob
Blumenthal, CEO, business school professor at UWash and bovine insulin
advocate/user), as Dave had a hefty inheritance from his mother's estate
about 1995. His father, a lawyer, is still living in Miami, FL, but has
cut Dave out of the will, as I understand it. Dave has a daugher in the
Erie, PA, area and a brother in California. He has two exwives as well.

Ultimately, he lost his VP position at a local bank for his association with
the local strip bars. He would walk in with a dark pin-striped suit and
blow money like there was no tomorrow. The bank required he stop going to
these strip bars as it gave the bank a poor image in the relatively small
city of Birmingham. He refused and was released.

I'm an engineer and rarely party hearty. My trips to Birmingham were twice
a year to compare notes with Dave and use his DCA-2000 to spot check my
HbA1c. He would drag me around Birmingham and I'd fall asleep at the bar.

So it was his money and he's over 21 years old. He's been in this death
spiral for years.

All we can do is watch the tragedy unfold,

Nico Kadel-Garcia

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Sep 6, 2003, 1:57:25 PM9/6/03
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Jim Dumas wrote:

> So it was his money and he's over 21 years old. He's been in this death
> spiral for years.
>
> All we can do is watch the tragedy unfold,

He ain't dead yet. If he keeps hitting the strip clubs, maybe that'll
keep his circulation going where he needs it....

Beav

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Sep 6, 2003, 7:50:29 PM9/6/03
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"Claudia-I am Star" <Claudi...@MyWay.com> wrote in message
news:5c89a4f6.0309...@posting.google.com...

Yeah Groves has his problems dealing with people, but that's got fuck all to
do with how WE react to the news that he's not in good health.

This is NOT the time to bring out big sticks.

Beav


t2_lurking

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Sep 6, 2003, 9:06:38 PM9/6/03
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I don't know the guy (Dave) but I was kinda flabbergasted by the reaction.
If I heard that say... MU-whoever was hospitalized I think I would want to
wish them a speedy recovery. You (or they) can't take it back after ones
dead.
--
t2_lurking
geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom
Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)

"Beav" <beavis....@ntloxoworld.com> wrote in message
news:9pu6b.3801882$cI2.5...@news.easynews.com...

t2_lurking

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Sep 6, 2003, 9:09:29 PM9/6/03
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Sorry, didn't notice the cross-post. 8(

--
t2_lurking
geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom
Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)

"t2_lurking" <t2_lu...@abbottandabbott.com> wrote in message
news:bje0av$i5e4h$1...@ID-201156.news.uni-berlin.de...

Jim Dumas

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Sep 6, 2003, 9:26:36 PM9/6/03
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Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:

Hi Nico,

Point taken (pun of course). I hope he recovers and changes his lifestyle
to be more health conscious.

It is important to note that Dave's CVD is not caused by his use of bovine
insulin. It is caused by heredity, poor BG control and poor lifestyle
choices. He has control over the latter two and should work to improve
them.

One problem with Dave's personal BG control is his HbA1c target of 9%. He
refused to achieve the revised DCCT goal of 7% (initially it was 6.05%, ref
<=6.05% is normal for the DCCT). He claimed he had too much hypoglycemia
trying to achieve 7%. So this may be the price he has to pay for this
therapeutic choice.

In any case, let's hope he makes it,

Marilyn McView

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Sep 6, 2003, 10:24:34 PM9/6/03
to
Jim,

Thanks for posting this. I wondered where he was. I watch his tripod
message board but never post (he would surely ban me immediately).

I'm sorry that he is having to go through this and hope that he pulls
through. He's a fighter so I'm sure that will help.

Marilyn


"Jim Dumas" <j-d...@de.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:hQR5b.23819$EW1....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...

Nico Kadel-Garcia

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Sep 6, 2003, 11:23:48 PM9/6/03
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Jim Dumas wrote:

> Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:
>
>
>>Jim Dumas wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So it was his money and he's over 21 years old. He's been in this death
>>>spiral for years.
>>>
>>>All we can do is watch the tragedy unfold,
>>
>>He ain't dead yet. If he keeps hitting the strip clubs, maybe that'll
>>keep his circulation going where he needs it....
>
>
> Hi Nico,
>
> Point taken (pun of course). I hope he recovers and changes his lifestyle
> to be more health conscious.

More strip clubs, fewer snacks while watching and dropping bucks?

> It is important to note that Dave's CVD is not caused by his use of bovine
> insulin. It is caused by heredity, poor BG control and poor lifestyle
> choices. He has control over the latter two and should work to improve
> them.

> One problem with Dave's personal BG control is his HbA1c target of 9%. He
> refused to achieve the revised DCCT goal of 7% (initially it was 6.05%, ref
> <=6.05% is normal for the DCCT). He claimed he had too much hypoglycemia
> trying to achieve 7%. So this may be the price he has to pay for this
> therapeutic choice.
>
> In any case, let's hope he makes it,

True. Also note, lowering your HbA1c is great, but dying from making a
fatal error when having a hypoglycemic incident while achieving it is
really, really bad for you. I'm not going to judge his level of control
and lifestyle without a lot more data.

But heck, if he wants to see underclad cuties flirting a lot, he should
go to the party *I* just went to. Lots of nifty old friends, lots of
children, and a heart-stoppingly frisky bunch of gorgeous youngsters
running around, chatting with nice people, playing with the babies,
learning evil nerd tricks from us older geeks, and generally a great
time....

Ozgirl

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Sep 7, 2003, 12:26:07 AM9/7/03
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"t2_lurking" <t2_lu...@abbottandabbott.com> wrote in message
news:bje0av$i5e4h$1...@ID-201156.news.uni-berlin.de...
> I don't know the guy (Dave) but I was kinda flabbergasted by the
reaction.
> If I heard that say... MU-whoever was hospitalized I think I would
want to
> wish them a speedy recovery. You (or they) can't take it back after
ones
> dead.

I agree, there are some people we may dislike but a fellow human being
is suffering, means nought that he may have brought his suffering on
his own head by his lifestyle or that he may have pissed a lot of
people off, he is still human and none of us are perfect, far from it.

I don't know Dave and I have seen over the years in the groups that he
isn't exactly well liked by a lot of folk but I hope he has a speedy
recovery and a wake up call.

Lauri

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Sep 7, 2003, 1:35:55 AM9/7/03
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Jim Dumas <j-d...@de.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<gPv6b.7080$_26....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

> Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:
>
> > Jim Dumas wrote:
> >
> >> So it was his money and he's over 21 years old. He's been in this death
> >> spiral for years.
> >>
> >> All we can do is watch the tragedy unfold,
> >
> > He ain't dead yet. If he keeps hitting the strip clubs, maybe that'll
> > keep his circulation going where he needs it....
>
> Hi Nico,
>
> Point taken (pun of course). I hope he recovers and changes his lifestyle
> to be more health conscious.
>
> It is important to note that Dave's CVD is not caused by his use of bovine
> insulin. It is caused by heredity, poor BG control and poor lifestyle
> choices. He has control over the latter two and should work to improve
> them.
>
> One problem with Dave's personal BG control is his HbA1c target of 9%. He
> refused to achieve the revised DCCT goal of 7% (initially it was 6.05%, ref
> <=6.05% is normal for the DCCT). He claimed he had too much hypoglycemia
> trying to achieve 7%. So this may be the price he has to pay for this
> therapeutic choice.
>
> In any case, let's hope he makes it,


Hi Jim,
I wanted to say I do agree with you here regarding Dave's health and
reluctance to see that his lifestyle is catching up with him. His
comments and advice to other diabetics to keep their A1C's so high,
his claims regarding drinking and how little effect it has, and the
fact he is currently suffering a severe ulcer in his leg, and his
saying it has nothing to do with his diabetes is somewhat disturbing.
I do hope he recovers from this latest medical problem, and will
perhaps change some of his habits. As strong willed and stubborn as
he is, I homestly do not see this happening. I have been a diabetic
for 35 years and recently went back on beef. My A1C's are in the 6.7
range and I feel much better then when they were 9-10. I have severe
retinopathy and have lost the vision in my right eye as a result of my
A1C's being in the 9-10 range for almost 5 years.

Lauri

Al Hardy

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Sep 7, 2003, 2:21:56 AM9/7/03
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"Claudia-I am Star" <Claudi...@MyWay.com> wrote in message
news:5c89a4f6.0309...@posting.google.com...

I never heard of Dave, nor you, but your idea of laughing at a sick man
tells me that you should be careful, because such wishes often rebound on
the head of those making them.

Al.


willbill

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Sep 7, 2003, 7:29:08 AM9/7/03
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On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 02:24:34 GMT, "Marilyn McView" <mcv...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Thanks for posting this. I wondered where he was.
> I watch his tripod message board but never post

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


> (he would surely ban me immediately).

interesting that you "watch" the site

especially given that you were one of the leading people
who got dave kicked off the CompuServe Diabetes Forum
(which dave groves was in charge of for many years)

bill

Lauri

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Sep 7, 2003, 12:47:50 PM9/7/03
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"Al Hardy" <a.ha...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<bjeimu$igb0a$1...@ID-191168.news.uni-berlin.de>...


I believe no one is actually laughing or wishing ill will on Dave. I
think it is more out of frustration that many of the comments that may
seem heartless are being made. Dave has helped many in one way or
another and for that they are very grateful, however Dave has been
telling people for a very long time that Dr's are wrong or stupid, and
has been advising people to do things no Dr would ever condone or
advice. For those of us who have been diabetic for most of our lives,
and have strived to maintain normal A1c's and follow what our Dr's say
to avoid complications, to have someone blatantly state that are
wrong, and to say he is doing great on his regime, causes great
concern. The opinions expressed about Dave that seem harsh appear to
be made out of frustration. People trusted Dave and most of his
advice, and many did believe and follow a lot of what he told them
even when there was some doubt. Dave is now in the hospital and
suffering one of the many things diabetics face when poorly controlled
or their lifestyle is not conducive to good diabetic control. This
situation could be equated to a Dr who is a diabetic telling his
diabetic patients it is ok to smoke excessively, drink, eat whatever
they want, and live whatever lifestyle they want,to ignore current
medical practices and current proven methods and just follow his
example. I may not be wording this correctly, but I think those who
have followed Dave in the past understand. No one is wishing bad on
Dave, just the fact that he has been advising diabetics for years to
ignore everything they have been taught, and to follow what he says.
Dave is a very convincing person and appears very believable as well.
It makes some folks wonder if what they have done after following his
advice, is going to lead them down the path Dave is currently having
to travel. I do hope all goes well for Dave, and that he comes out
of this stronger and better health wise.

Thelma Lubkin

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Sep 7, 2003, 1:10:47 PM9/7/03
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Lauri <lmve...@techie.com> wrote:
<snip>
: Dave is a very convincing person and appears very believable as well.
: It makes some folks wonder if what they have done after following his
: advice, is going to lead them down the path Dave is currently having
: to travel. I do hope all goes well for Dave, and that he comes out
: of this stronger and better health wise.

How old is this man?
--thelma

Jim Dumas

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Sep 7, 2003, 1:39:56 PM9/7/03
to
Thelma Lubkin wrote:

Hi Thelma,

Dave is about 60 years old. He was dx'd T1 at 9 yo. He's had a painful
ball-of-foot lesion for about 3 years now. I saw him in April, 2002, and
he had limited mobility to only his livingroom at that time. But we did
get out to a Chinese restaurant for dinner. So he has some getty-up-and-go
left. But he didn't eat much, as I recall, because his teeth were painful
chewing the food. He weighs about 100 pounds.

So ~51 years T1,

Beav

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Sep 7, 2003, 3:19:31 PM9/7/03
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"Claudia-I am Star" <Claudi...@MyWay.com> wrote in message
news:5c89a4f6.03090...@posting.google.com...

Of course it will. It's the most lethal insulin ever made and anyone stupid
enough to even THINK they could get any semblance of control must have a
brain the size of a pea.

Also of course, the vast majority of insulin users for the past 70 years
have been using beef insulin and only since the 80's have we been able to
use the wonderful life saving, ultra hypo-awareness insulin's genetically
modified to resemble "something" akin to actual insulin. Thankfully, things
are getting better as more and more genetically modified organisms are being
introduced to us by the back door.

Beav


Marilyn McView

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Sep 7, 2003, 3:33:29 PM9/7/03
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"willbill" <NOm...@NOmail.net> wrote in message
news:2k5mlvomkeu17o2ee...@4ax.com...

> interesting that you "watch" the site
>
> especially given that you were one of the leading people
> who got dave kicked off the CompuServe Diabetes Forum
> (which dave groves was in charge of for many years)
>
> bill
>
> >
> > I'm sorry that he is having to go through this and hope that he pulls
> > through. He's a fighter so I'm sure that will help.
> >
> > Marilyn

Bill,

I don't see what is interesting about this. Enlighten me.

It was Dave's behavior that caused him to get fired, nothing else. Myself
and others forwarded abusive posts and emails to CS merely making the
appropriate people aware of the things that were going on. If he did
nothing wrong, there would have been nothing to report.

I honestly hope for the best for him. With this and then possible surgery
for his leg he has a long road to recovery. I hope he finds peace
throughout it all.

Marilyn


Nico Kadel-Garcia

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Sep 7, 2003, 4:13:01 PM9/7/03
to
Beav wrote:


> Of course it will. It's the most lethal insulin ever made and anyone stupid
> enough to even THINK they could get any semblance of control must have a
> brain the size of a pea.

Beav? Bite me hard on this one, you've entered la-la land. The bovine
insulin does have some advantages for being aware of hypoglycemic
episodes over the "human" insulins, and does seem to last longer. The
"most lethal insulin ever made" is the one you don't understand the
trade-offs for, not for being cow, pig, fish, or human based.

> Also of course, the vast majority of insulin users for the past 70 years
> have been using beef insulin and only since the 80's have we been able to
> use the wonderful life saving, ultra hypo-awareness insulin's genetically
> modified to resemble "something" akin to actual insulin. Thankfully, things
> are getting better as more and more genetically modified organisms are being
> introduced to us by the back door.

The "genetically modified" is not necessarily the advantage you claim.
Longevity of insulin, for example, has been increased by the addition of
zinc or protamine or ather substances. The short-acting uses of Humalog
is useful, I admit.

Tiger Lily

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Sep 7, 2003, 5:23:18 PM9/7/03
to
Nico
can you say "heavy sarcasm"???

"Nico Kadel-Garcia" <.net> wrote in message .net...

Beav

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Sep 7, 2003, 9:08:07 PM9/7/03
to

"Nico Kadel-Garcia" <nka...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hjM6b.4818$KX6....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...

> Beav wrote:
>
>
> > Of course it will. It's the most lethal insulin ever made and anyone
stupid
> > enough to even THINK they could get any semblance of control must have a
> > brain the size of a pea.
>
> Beav? Bite me hard on this one,

I suspect I may have to Nico.

you've entered la-la land.

Ahhh, but HAVE I?

The bovine
> insulin does have some advantages for being aware of hypoglycemic
> episodes over the "human" insulins, and does seem to last longer. The
> "most lethal insulin ever made" is the one you don't understand the
> trade-offs for, not for being cow, pig, fish, or human based.

Dare I tell you I was taking the piss out of the original poster? 'Course I
dare, coz that's what I was doing.


>
> > Also of course, the vast majority of insulin users for the past 70 years
> > have been using beef insulin and only since the 80's have we been able
to
> > use the wonderful life saving, ultra hypo-awareness insulin's
genetically
> > modified to resemble "something" akin to actual insulin. Thankfully,
things
> > are getting better as more and more genetically modified organisms are
being
> > introduced to us by the back door.
>
> The "genetically modified" is not necessarily the advantage you claim.

Read between the lines Nico. I can't believe you thought I was being
serious. Which insulin do I use????

> Longevity of insulin, for example, has been increased by the addition of
> zinc or protamine or ather substances. The short-acting uses of Humalog
> is useful, I admit.

I would admit to that too, well I would being a user of it :-))

Beav


Marilyn McView

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Sep 7, 2003, 9:23:29 PM9/7/03
to

"Jim Dumas" <j-d...@de.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:W0b6b.5264$_26....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...

Dave Groves is a paradox in that he gave out fair to good advice but didn't
> follow it himself. He was a heavy cigarette smoker and consumed the
> classic southern diet of fried foods. So the picture is more complex than
> just the species of insulin he preferred. When I lived in Atlanta, I'd
> head out to Birmingham, AL, on Friday night and party with him til the
> dancers quit. He was blown lots of money on booze and those girls for a
> guy suffering from impotence. (i.e., why torture yourself?)

Jim,

His friend Claudia (not the one who posted here) just put this up on his
site:

"It does indeed appear that these current problems have arisen as a direct
result of his human insulin caused auto accident, which so damaged his
femur, and the circulation in that leg. "

It doesn't surprise me as that he is saying this as he seems to feel that
all bad things that have ever happened to him are all the fault of his brief
time on human insulin.. I will anxiously await the explanation of how all
the other risk factors didn't come into play.

Claudia also said he should be released shortly. This is good.

Marilyn


Lauri

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Sep 7, 2003, 9:32:31 PM9/7/03
to
">
> Of course it will. It's the most lethal insulin ever made and anyone stupid
> enough to even THINK they could get any semblance of control must have a
> brain the size of a pea.
>
> Also of course, the vast majority of insulin users for the past 70 years
> have been using beef insulin and only since the 80's have we been able to
> use the wonderful life saving, ultra hypo-awareness insulin's genetically
> modified to resemble "something" akin to actual insulin. Thankfully, things
> are getting better as more and more genetically modified organisms are being
> introduced to us by the back door.
>
> Beav

Ouchie. I truely beg to differ. For 30 years while on beef/pork
insulin I was in perfect control. I saw my Dr once a year from the
time I was 18 until the advent of Human insulin. In 1997 I was
switched to Human insulin, and for me that was the beginning of the
end. My son logged 67 hypoglycemic unawareness episodesin less then
18 months. I had a massive infection that ran rampant and was
resistant to the antibiotics I was given resulting in my toe being
amputated. I also started to develop retinopathy, severe. Now let me
state that until I started on Human insulin I had 1 hypoglycemic
episode in 30 years, I had 20/20 vision and never had an infection as
devastating. Neuropathy also developed during my time on Human insulin
as well. My A1c'c for 30 years were in the 6.3-6.7 range
consistantly, Perhaps not all long term diabetics suffer from the use
of Human insulin, however I did. My endo noted the dramatic change in
my health within 6 months of my returning to beef and has agreed that
Human insulin seemed to have attributed to the issues I had.

Jim Dumas

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Sep 7, 2003, 9:52:33 PM9/7/03
to
Lauri wrote:

> Hi Jim,
> I wanted to say I do agree with you here regarding Dave's health and
> reluctance to see that his lifestyle is catching up with him. His
> comments and advice to other diabetics to keep their A1C's so high,
> his claims regarding drinking and how little effect it has, and the
> fact he is currently suffering a severe ulcer in his leg, and his
> saying it has nothing to do with his diabetes is somewhat disturbing.
> I do hope he recovers from this latest medical problem, and will
> perhaps change some of his habits. As strong willed and stubborn as
> he is, I homestly do not see this happening. I have been a diabetic
> for 35 years and recently went back on beef. My A1C's are in the 6.7
> range and I feel much better then when they were 9-10. I have severe
> retinopathy and have lost the vision in my right eye as a result of my
> A1C's being in the 9-10 range for almost 5 years.

Hi Lauri,

Just to say thanks for your input. My approach with this issue was to
preemptively release this information before his enemies could jump in.
Honesty is the best policy.

It's also important to note that Dave's DIF website was such a kludge that
nobody wanted to help him. So Dave's the only person making changes on his
diabetics_world website. There was an official DIF website started two
years ago as http://www.diabetesinternational.org and this upset Dave in
June of 2002. So DIF has two competing websites and two agendas.

In any case, I'm sorry to hear of your complications but pleased to see your
6.7% HbA1c. Keep up the good management work! I'm also racking my brain
to know if we've met in the past. Were you ever on the CompuServe DM
forum? When did you meet Dave?

Thanks again,

willbill

unread,
Sep 7, 2003, 10:24:14 PM9/7/03
to
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 19:33:29 GMT, "Marilyn McView" <mcv...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> "willbill" <NOm...@NOmail.net> wrote in message
> news:2k5mlvomkeu17o2ee...@4ax.com...
> > interesting that you "watch" the site
> >
> > especially given that you were one of the leading people
> > who got dave kicked off the CompuServe Diabetes Forum
> > (which dave groves was in charge of for many years)
> >
> > bill
> >
> > >
> > > I'm sorry that he is having to go through this and hope that he pulls
> > > through. He's a fighter so I'm sure that will help.
> > >
> > > Marilyn
>
> Bill,
>
> I don't see what is interesting about this.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

this draw out comment doesn't surprise me. :(
in my mind i can see you pecking away at groves
for years out on the CompuServe Diabetes Forum.
what a get off that must have been for a weirdo
like you

i've know for a long time that there is something
very wrong with you. in contrast, i at least have
a sense of what's wrong with dave and that is an
anger (with USA diabiz) that burns deeper than
any other diabetic that i know


> Enlighten me.
>
> It was Dave's behavior that caused him to get fired, nothing else. Myself
> and others forwarded abusive posts and emails to CS merely making the
> appropriate people aware of the things that were going on. If he did
> nothing wrong, there would have been nothing to report.


lessee... at a minimum it's safe to say that
you dislike groves

my sense is that you hate groves

yet now that you've got groves off of your beloved
CompuServe Diabetes Forum, you now say that
you now watch the groves site!!!!!

there's something seriously wrong with you

bill

Jim Dumas

unread,
Sep 7, 2003, 10:37:37 PM9/7/03
to
Marilyn McView wrote:

> Jim,
>
> His friend Claudia (not the one who posted here) just put this up on his
> site:
>
> "It does indeed appear that these current problems have arisen as a direct
> result of his human insulin caused auto accident, which so damaged his
> femur, and the circulation in that leg. "

Indeed,

I don't want to kick him when he's down. I do know he really doesn't want
to post on MHD. So I doubt we'll ever see him here.


> Claudia also said he should be released shortly. This is good.

That's certainly good. Dave is a control freak and Claudia's posting means
he's getting lucid, (I was told he was heavily sedated post-op), and
driving the hospital staff bonkers. They probably will release him early
to get some peace. Guess I should set up spamblocker with Dave's address.

Think I'll be going to Home Depot to buy a hardhat as well,

willbill

unread,
Sep 7, 2003, 11:21:43 PM9/7/03
to
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 19:19:31 GMT, "Beav" <beavis....@ntloxoworld.com> wrote:

> "Claudia-I am Star" <Claudi...@MyWay.com> wrote

> > Jim Dumas <j-d...@de.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote...

i suspect that the main reason that the beef/pork mixes
were the biggest seller was low price. the predominance
of the beef/pork insulin mixes was also the reason for the
misleading word "animal" insulin

the fact that the beef heavy mixes (and pure beef insulin too)
were also best was pure serendipity

bill t1 since '57, ex 8-yr pumper, beef-L 1x, simple MDI/DAFNE

willbill

unread,
Sep 7, 2003, 11:21:48 PM9/7/03
to
On 7 Sep 2003 18:32:31 -0700, lmve...@techie.com (Lauri) wrote:

> beav wrote:
> > Of course it will. It's the most lethal insulin ever made and anyone stupid
> > enough to even THINK they could get any semblance of control must have a
> > brain the size of a pea.
> >
> > Also of course, the vast majority of insulin users for the past 70 years
> > have been using beef insulin and only since the 80's have we been able to
> > use the wonderful life saving, ultra hypo-awareness insulin's genetically
> > modified to resemble "something" akin to actual insulin. Thankfully, things
> > are getting better as more and more genetically modified organisms are being
> > introduced to us by the back door.
> >
> > Beav

> Ouchie. I truely beg to differ.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^????

not sure i understand what you are commenting about?
coz everything below seems to be in favor of
beef insulin (or the beef heavy beef/pork mixes)

> For 30 years while on beef/pork
> insulin I was in perfect control. I saw my Dr once a year from the
> time I was 18 until the advent of Human insulin. In 1997 I was
> switched to Human insulin, and for me that was the beginning of the
> end. My son logged 67 hypoglycemic unawareness episodesin less then
> 18 months. I had a massive infection that ran rampant and was
> resistant to the antibiotics I was given resulting in my toe being
> amputated. I also started to develop retinopathy, severe. Now let me
> state that until I started on Human insulin I had
> 1 hypoglycemic episode in 30 years,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

i can believe that

> I had 20/20 vision and never had an infection as
> devastating. Neuropathy also developed during my time on Human insulin
> as well. My A1c'c for 30 years were in the 6.3-6.7 range
> consistantly, Perhaps not all long term diabetics suffer from the use
> of Human insulin, however I did.

my own problems with synthetic "human"-R (used 7 years
via pump) were subtle

my problems with synthetic lispro (used 10 months
via pump) were major

going back to beef and pork fixed *ALL*
of the problems. :))))) it also took going
back to get a hint of the subtle problems
that "human" insulin has

i strongly suspect that aspart and glargine
also have serious problems, especially glargine
given that it's polypeptide structure is even
more weird than that of beef insulin

> My endo noted the dramatic change in
> my health within 6 months of my returning to beef and has agreed that
> Human insulin seemed to have attributed to the issues I had.

if pressed, chances are that yer doc will write
it all off to you being a long term diabetic
and not to the "wonderful" synthetic insulins

Nico Kadel-Garcia

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 1:23:45 AM9/8/03
to
Tiger Lily wrote:

> Nico
> can you say "heavy sarcasm"???

If so, I missed it and apologize ot Beav. There's been enough vindictive
stuff about "Dave brought this on himself" that I wanted to stomp it
hard and fast.

Lauri

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 2:24:36 AM9/8/03
to
> Hi Lauri,
>
> Just to say thanks for your input. My approach with this issue was to
> preemptively release this information before his enemies could jump in.
> Honesty is the best policy.
>
> It's also important to note that Dave's DIF website was such a kludge that
> nobody wanted to help him. So Dave's the only person making changes on his
> diabetics_world website. There was an official DIF website started two
> years ago as http://www.diabetesinternational.org and this upset Dave in
> June of 2002. So DIF has two competing websites and two agendas.
>
> In any case, I'm sorry to hear of your complications but pleased to see your
> 6.7% HbA1c. Keep up the good management work! I'm also racking my brain
> to know if we've met in the past. Were you ever on the CompuServe DM
> forum? When did you meet Dave?
>
> Thanks again,

Hi Jim,
After reading your post here I checked my emails from Dave and noticed
your name on many of them, I stumbled on Dave's website about 2+
years ago to find out how to import beef insulin. Perhaps that is
where we ran into each other, Dave and I had some pretty heated
disagreements regarding stats and numbers a few months back and I have
basically stayed off his forum since that time.

I do remember the issues with the diabetesinternational.org site and
Dave trying to iron that out. He was not at all pleased.

Thank you for your concerns regarding my complications, but I do have
to say, despite all that has happened to me, I am still alive and
doing much better compared to some of the things I have heard and read
about the things diabetics on Human insulin have suffered.

Thank you :)

Lauri

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 12:16:37 PM9/8/03
to
> not sure i understand what you are commenting about?
> coz everything below seems to be in favor of
> beef insulin (or the beef heavy beef/pork mixes)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hi Bill,
sorry abput the confusions regarding my post...I was commenting to
Beav about beef insulin being lethal and the worst insulin ever made.
>

> my own problems with synthetic "human"-R (used 7 years
> via pump) were subtle
>
> my problems with synthetic lispro (used 10 months
> via pump) were major
>
> going back to beef and pork fixed *ALL*
> of the problems. :))))) it also took going
> back to get a hint of the subtle problems
> that "human" insulin has
>
> i strongly suspect that aspart and glargine
> also have serious problems, especially glargine
> given that it's polypeptide structure is even
> more weird than that of beef insulin

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I truely understand what you are saying here. I honestly thought
while on Human insulins that I was the one who was doing something
wrong, Once the light went on I and I traced a lot of my problems to
when I was started on Human, I wanted to scream.

>
> if pressed, chances are that yer doc will write
> it all off to you being a long term diabetic
> and not to the "wonderful" synthetic insulins

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I am not too sure about this. When I went to him and explained what
was happening to me, he was the one who told me about possibly
importing beef insulin. He has never once told me he thought or felt
Human insulin was better in any way. He said "some diabetics do have
problems with Human, and considering my previous medical history, he
felt that Human insulin was not going to work for me" After I started
to import beef and he followed me on a weekly basis for 4 months he
reiterated his comment. When he was contacted by both my insurance
company and the folks at Immune Tolerance, he stated the same things
to them. Perhaps I was lucky to have found a Dr who has not been
pressured to force his patients to use Human insulins, or he is a
great liar :)

Lauri

Randy Sigman

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 12:40:59 PM9/8/03
to
In misc.health.diabetes Lauri <lmve...@techie.com> wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

> Dave is a very convincing person and appears very believable as well.
> It makes some folks wonder if what they have done after following his
> advice, is going to lead them down the path Dave is currently having
> to travel. I do hope all goes well for Dave, and that he comes out
> of this stronger and better health wise.

I do not know Dave personally. I wish him the best and hope that he
recovers fully. I do find the above to be inaccurate, at least as
far as I am concerned. It didn't take 2 or 3 posts of Dave's here on MHD
for me to realize that he is not someone whose advice I would EVER follow.

Randy

willbill

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 1:49:46 PM9/8/03
to
On 8 Sep 2003 09:16:37 -0700, lmve...@techie.com (Lauri) wrote:

> > not sure i understand what you are commenting about?
> > coz everything below seems to be in favor of
> > beef insulin (or the beef heavy beef/pork mixes)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Hi Bill,
> sorry abput the confusions regarding my post...I was commenting to
> Beav about beef insulin being lethal and the worst insulin ever made.

hmmmm.... if you mean UK t1 beav's comments,
he was being "tongue in cheek" sarcastic
coz while he started off on the synthetic insulins
(roughly 15 years ago) he now uses beef-Lente
for background (UK diabetics can still easily get
beef insulin)

>
> > my own problems with synthetic "human"-R (used 7 years
> > via pump) were subtle
> >
> > my problems with synthetic lispro (used 10 months
> > via pump) were major
> >
> > going back to beef and pork fixed *ALL*
> > of the problems. :))))) it also took going
> > back to get a hint of the subtle problems
> > that "human" insulin has
> >
> > i strongly suspect that aspart and glargine
> > also have serious problems, especially glargine
> > given that it's polypeptide structure is even
> > more weird than that of beef insulin
> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I truely understand what you are saying here. I honestly thought
> while on Human insulins that I was the one who was doing something
> wrong, Once the light went on I and I traced a lot of my problems to
> when I was started on Human, I wanted to scream.

personally, i cried. i cried as hard as i've ever cried
coz i'm sure that there is a subset of t1s like me
who do much better on beef insulin, and likely some
of the insulin using t2s as well (mainly near the end
of their lives)



> >
> > if pressed, chances are that yer doc will write
> > it all off to you being a long term diabetic
> > and not to the "wonderful" synthetic insulins
> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I am not too sure about this. When I went to him and explained what
> was happening to me, he was the one who told me about possibly
> importing beef insulin.

wow!!!!! keep that doc! i can't begin to tell you
how unusual that is, at least in my own experience
with some of the best docs in the USA

by the way, how long did you use synthetic insulin for?

and how long have you been back on beef insulin for?

and what changes/symptoms did you notice in the
1st weeks/months after you went back to beef insulin?

also, you mentioned "feeling better" on beef insulin.
how long did it take for you to notice that?

bill t1 since '57, ex 8-yr pumper, beef-L 1x, simple MDI/DAFNE

Beav

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 4:44:55 PM9/8/03
to

"Jim Dumas" <j-d...@de.SPAM!mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:RXR6b.5284$BG6...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> Marilyn McView wrote:
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > His friend Claudia (not the one who posted here) just put this up on his
> > site:
> >
> > "It does indeed appear that these current problems have arisen as a
direct
> > result of his human insulin caused auto accident, which so damaged his
> > femur, and the circulation in that leg. "
>
> Indeed,
>
> I don't want to kick him when he's down. I do know he really doesn't want
> to post on MHD. So I doubt we'll ever see him here.

I suspect you'd be right too Jim. DG won't post on here because when he did,
he didn't get the anwsers he was looking for and launched the first salvo of
a brief flame-fest. He dosn't like it when people disagree with him and he
can't see why people would have a different opinion, and left MHD when it
happened here.

He still maintains that he was "flamed-off", which is a somewhat childish
way to look at things.

>
>
> > Claudia also said he should be released shortly. This is good.
>
> That's certainly good. Dave is a control freak and Claudia's posting
means
> he's getting lucid, (I was told he was heavily sedated post-op), and
> driving the hospital staff bonkers. They probably will release him early
> to get some peace. Guess I should set up spamblocker with Dave's address.

It's good that you'll need one. It means he's likely to get out of hospital
in a reasonable time.


>
> Think I'll be going to Home Depot to buy a hardhat as well,

Good idea, but thell him to buy one (and a thicker skin) too :-))

Beav


Beav

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 4:47:20 PM9/8/03
to

"Nico Kadel-Garcia" <nka...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:BnU6b.6360$w41....@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...

Agreeed Nico, (no apolgy necessary btw). My first post in this thread was to
someone I took to be "sticking it" to DG when he was down. Not on that sort
of thing. Well not in my book anyway. We've ALL got problems, and we can't
all get along famously with everyone else, but generally I think we do Ok,
and it'd be a shame to spoil tthings with cheap shots at someone who's not
in the position to shoot back.

Beav


Beav

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 4:57:05 PM9/8/03
to

"Lauri" <lmve...@techie.com> wrote in message
news:85b80327.03090...@posting.google.com...

> > not sure i understand what you are commenting about?
> > coz everything below seems to be in favor of
> > beef insulin (or the beef heavy beef/pork mixes)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Hi Bill,
> sorry abput the confusions regarding my post...I was commenting to
> Beav about beef insulin being lethal and the worst insulin ever made.

Lauri. I was responding to a post by "Claudia I am a star" (She is a legend
in her own lunchtime is probably more the case) where she mentioned that
beef insulin was basically "crap".

I responded in my usual "Beav" way (it's called sarcasm) and after posting
in this manner on here at MHD for the past 5 or 6 years, I THOUGHT it was
well past the time when it would've been seen as a serious "anti-beef" post.
As a TOTALLY committed beef user, I think it's fair to say that I actually
LIKE the stuff:-))

I realise you speak and converse in English, but I suspect "some" of it is
lost on you (and Nico in this case which REALLY surprised me). Fortunately
Tiger and willbill knew what was happening.:-))

Beav


Beav

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 5:01:57 PM9/8/03
to

"willbill" <NOm...@NOmail.net> wrote in message
news:4etnlvs55isvj8o0h...@4ax.com...

Possible so bill, but at one time, there wasn't much choice. There WAS only
beef and pork, or beef/pok mixes.

the predominance
> of the beef/pork insulin mixes was also the reason for the
> misleading word "animal" insulin

I don't know why you feel the word "animal" is misleading. These insulins
ARE taken from animals after all.

>
> the fact that the beef heavy mixes (and pure beef insulin too)
> were also best was pure serendipity

Again, possibly so, but now and again, serendipity has it's role to play.
Some luck HAS to be good.


Beav


Lauri

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 5:24:46 PM9/8/03
to
willbill <posto...@sgmbi812isinvalidforermail.net> wrote in message news:<n9gplv4jbvjo93sks...@4ax.com>...

> On 8 Sep 2003 09:16:37 -0700, lmve...@techie.com (Lauri) wrote:
>

> hmmmm.... if you mean UK t1 beav's comments,
> he was being "tongue in cheek" sarcastic
> coz while he started off on the synthetic insulins
> (roughly 15 years ago) he now uses beef-Lente
> for background (UK diabetics can still easily get
> beef insulin)
OOps,,,I apologize,,I didn't quite get that. I do apologize to Beav
for assuming his comments

> personally, i cried. i cried as hard as i've ever cried
> coz i'm sure that there is a subset of t1s like me
> who do much better on beef insulin, and likely some
> of the insulin using t2s as well (mainly near the end
> of their lives)

I couldn't agree more


>
> wow!!!!! keep that doc! i can't begin to tell you
> how unusual that is, at least in my own experience
> with some of the best docs in the USA

I was very lucky to find this Dr. I had seen 3 other Endo's before I
stumbled upon this Dr. All the others told me all my years of "good
control were now coming back to haunt me , and I must change my
lifestyle to accomplish better control on Human" My son almost
laughed in the Dr's face when he heard that


>
> by the way, how long did you use synthetic insulin for?

I was on synthetic insulin for almost 5 years


>
> and how long have you been back on beef insulin for?

I have been back on beef for a year now

>
> and what changes/symptoms did you notice in the
> 1st weeks/months after you went back to beef insulin?

The immediate results I experienced was no more "sudden hypos" Within
about 2 weeks I started to feel when my bg's were low and the reaction
to them was not passing out or becoming confused and disoriented,
hypothemia,or blurred vision. , Instead I felt a little weak and my
head started to ache like a very mild headache. I also noticed on
beef that even if my bg's were low (in the 50's) I was still coherant,
no hypothermia, or blurred vision. I also noticed that the low bg's
did not come on within seconds..they were gradual so I could catch
them before they plummeted to the low teens like they did with Human.
I also noted an orange brought the lows up quickly, whereas on Human
insulins it would take massive amounts of carbs or sweets and about
3-4 hours to bring them up into the low/normal range. Another very
strange finding was in one of my Shelties. When my bg's are low on
beef she alerts to this immediately and actually warns me. She never
once did that when I was on Human insulin. She was nver trained in
amy way to recognize these things

>
> also, you mentioned "feeling better" on beef insulin.
> how long did it take for you to notice that?
>

It took about 2 months before I started really feeling like my old
self. Because of all the things that started happening on Human I was
a wreck, I gained almost 40lbs while on Human insulin. I had arthritis
(or what felt like arthritis) in my hands and shoulders, I was always
tired on Human insulin (probably from all the ,what seemed like,
continous lows) and needed to nap when I came home from work. I
always felt nauseated (probably from all the sugar and carbs I was
pumping into myself for the lows). My memory was horrible when on
Human as a result of the countless Hypoglycemic\hypothermic episodes.
I could not remember the simpliest things while on Human. My periods
would last for 10 days and were very erradict. All of these things
cleared up within months of returning to beef and I have lost the
weight I had gained while on Human insulin.

> > Lauri

willbill

unread,
Sep 8, 2003, 8:33:48 PM9/8/03
to
8 Sep 2003 14:24:46 -0700, Lauri wrote:

> willbill wrote

> > by the way, how long did you use synthetic insulin for?

> I was on synthetic insulin for almost 5 years

i used synthetic insulin for 8 years

100% via pump:
jan.'91-oct.'97 semi-synthetic "human" Velosulin-BR
oct.'97-aug.'98 synthetic Humalog (aka lispro)

for what it's worth, i used:
1. mostly 1x of PZI for my 1st 20+ years ('57 thru maybe '70),
probably a mix (i.e. beef/pork). :)))))
2. from '70 thru '80 i used a fixed 2x routine with pure pork-Lente
(insulin switch made by an excellent Internist (specialist in diabetes)
it worked ok, probably not as good as 1. (above), but not bad. :)
3. my best endo's CDE then changed me to a fixed 2x routine with
pure pork-NPH ('80 thru '90) which lead to 3-to-5 unconscious hypos
over the period. :(((((
4. as a result of the hypos, i moved to using an insulin pump
and used semi-synthetic "human" Velosulin-BR '91-thru-'97.
it seemed to work ok. more importantly, i didn't have any more
bad hypos. :) in other words, a small plus at a huge price
(pumps and their supplies are very expensive, not to mention
very inconvenient to use and have the HUGE risk of DKA)
5. another very good endo (who i trusted) convinced me to
give Humalog a try in my pump. :((((( that took 19 months
to sort out and the result was my 1st insulin allergy. :(((((
6. i then got that endo's agreement to try unbuffered Iletin-1 in my pump. :)
when i ran into cloudy insulin problems (in the infusion set tubing near
the end of the tubing (near the "needle")), he told me that i was on "my own"
for pumping "animal"-R insulin. :( (the problem was that i preferred 5 day
site times and the extra time/heat exposure was the issue with an unbuffered
R insulin (even if it had been unbuffered "human"-R))
7. after 6 or 7 months of pumping Iletin-1-R, i moved to using beef-Lente. :)))))

> > and how long have you been back on beef insulin for?

> I have been back on beef for a year now


i've been back on a mix of beef and pork
since aug.'98 (see above)

> > and what changes/symptoms did you notice in the
> > 1st weeks/months after you went back to beef insulin?

> The immediate results I experienced was no more "sudden hypos" Within
> about 2 weeks I started to feel when my bg's were low and the reaction
> to them was not passing out or becoming confused and disoriented,
> hypothemia,or blurred vision. , Instead I felt a little weak and my
> head started to ache like a very mild headache.

you are fortunate, you got improved hypo
awareness with beef insulin. :)))))

me too. :)))))

for me, it happened within the 1st few days.
the main initial symptom was intense HUNGER,
which took about a month to subside


> I also noticed on
> beef that even if my bg's were low (in the 50's) I was still coherant,
> no hypothermia, or blurred vision.

i never got that with my use of synthetic insulin.
but i've always had decent hypo awareness
regardless of the insulin used

iow, i was luckier than you. but i also was using
an insulin pump when i used synthetic insulin.
so it's not a fair comparison


> I also noticed that the low bg's
> did not come on within seconds..they were gradual so I could catch
> them before they plummeted to the low teens like they did with Human.

this is key. beef insulin is much slower than
"human" insulin. so there is a LOT more time
to notice an incoming hypo. as far as i know,
this is true for everyone

the YMMV part is that beef insulin may also
provide better hypo awareness, apart from
it's slow speed


> I also noted an orange brought the lows up quickly, whereas on Human
> insulins it would take massive amounts of carbs or sweets and about
> 3-4 hours to bring them up into the low/normal range.

agreed. :) again coz beef insulin is the slowest insulin. :)
my best guess/hope is that in another 10 years we'll
"rediscover" slow meal insulin. it's counterintuitive,
so it may take 15 years


> Another very
> strange finding was in one of my Shelties. When my bg's are low on
> beef she alerts to this immediately and actually warns me. She never
> once did that when I was on Human insulin.


LOL! that's a friendly laugh, not laughing at you!

maybe it's that your dog has more time to
notice that you are having hypo problems?


> She was nver trained in
> amy way to recognize these things


or maybe it's that *YOU* has more time
to notice that your dog is trying to warn you?


> > also, you mentioned "feeling better" on beef insulin.
> > how long did it take for you to notice that?
> >
> It took about 2 months before I started really feeling like my old
> self.

ZOUNDS!!!!!

it took me about 10 or 12 weeks!!!!!

i personally consider "feeling better"
the single most important thing that
happened with my move back to
using beef and pork insulin in aug.'98


> Because of all the things that started happening on Human I was
> a wreck, I gained almost 40lbs while on Human insulin. I had arthritis
> (or what felt like arthritis) in my hands and shoulders, I was always
> tired on Human insulin (probably from all the ,what seemed like,
> continous lows) and needed to nap when I came home from work. I
> always felt nauseated (probably from all the sugar and carbs I was
> pumping into myself for the lows). My memory was horrible when on
> Human as a result of the countless Hypoglycemic\hypothermic episodes.
> I could not remember the simpliest things while on Human. My periods
> would last for 10 days and were very erradict. All of these things
> cleared up within months of returning to beef and I have lost the
> weight I had gained while on Human insulin.


i don't connect on any of that (immediately above)

but that again may be due to my using
"human"-R insulin via pump

the two main things that changed when i went
back to beef/pork were that i quit having extremely
bad colds (which i'd never had before and haven't
had for the last 5 years), and i felt better, a LOT better

for what it's worth, i hated slow beef-R when i started
using it. i continued with it coz i clearly was getting
improved hypo awareness. it took me about 2 years
before i realized that the improved hypo awareness
was resulting in zero bad hypos (unconscious
or otherwise)