newbie to the ng,

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durtro

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Aug 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/9/00
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but not newbie to HIV. although i have a lot to learn.

i just read Peter Duesberg's book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" and have
since taken myself off of a cocktail that i couldn't take anyway
[Rescriptor, AZT and Ziagen] it's the 2nd time that i've tried this
cocktail with failure at six weeks due to projectile vomiting and other
problems [the vomiting is enough, people die from starvation,
dehydration and malnutrition] my previous cocktail was about 10
months' duration and consisted of Ziagen, D4t and 3tC. the Zerit [D4t]
created a painful peripheral neuropathy that is medicated now with
strong narcotics [fentanyl and oxycodone] and Neurontin at 1200 mg/day

i have hope now. i have been off of street chemicals for over a year
now, but smoke copious marijuana daily. i rarely drink alcohol, no
more than a few alcoholic drinks a month. i feel that i can get better
if i go for more of the alternative therapies, continue to avoid the
street drugs. i would love to get off the fentanyl and oxy but it just
hurts too much, i fear i would have to be institutionalized from the PN
alone.

i just wanted to introduce myself, i have much to learn and hope i have
time to do it. any feedback is appreciated. thank you all for your
time, and i will read the posts and help when i can. i am not a
scientist and i won't pretend to be one, i'm here to learn what i can
and apply it the best that i am able.

and i rarely use CAPS, it's my "posting style".

sincerely,
durtro

--
www.mp3.com/durtro


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

mcoo...@my-deja.com

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Aug 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/9/00
to
In article <8mrv1m$rhs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Welcome durtro.

I am curious what you think of Duesberg's ideas now that you've read
his book. You evidently are HIV+. It is a good thing that you are off
street "chemicals", as you say. As for alternative therapies, there are
dozens available. Most are snake oil, some might work. Caveat emptor.
Try to get George Carter's attention. He has lots of good advice on
supplements and such things.

A word of advice, durtro. Most of the so-called dissidents who post
here are not. They are trolls. Homophobic, ignorant trolls. It can take
a newbie sometime to figure them out. Keep your head down, try your
best to separate the wheat from the chaf, ignore absolutely everything
fred has to say and you should do alright.

You can go to www.misc.health.org

or http://www.aegis.com/hivinfoweb/search/index.html

for more information.

Once again, welcome.

ksta...@my-deja.com

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Aug 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/9/00
to
In article <8mrv1m$rhs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> but not newbie to [...] projectile vomiting and [...] starvation,
> dehydration and malnutrition [...] painful peripheral neuropathy
> street chemicals for over a year [and] copious marijuana daily [and]

> more than a few alcoholic drinks a month.
>
> i feel [...] alternative [...] love to get off [...] but it just
> hurts too much, i fear i [am] institutionalized [...] hope i have
> time to do it.
>
> durtro
>
> --
> www.mp3.com/durtro

Wow! Did you really write "serotonin production-increase facilitated
using EMF's as stimuli"? What a great song!

durtro

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Aug 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/9/00
to
In article <8ms58e$ss$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

yeah, that's an original. you should see it right up next to britney
spears on the charts, but you never will.

i like the poem that you made out of my post. it's a more accurate
assessment than i would like to admit!

-durt

--
www.mp3.com/durtro

durtro

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Aug 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/9/00
to
In article <8ms0cd$sut$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

mcoo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8mrv1m$rhs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > but not newbie to HIV. although i have a lot to learn.
> >
> > i just read Peter Duesberg's book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" and
have
> > since taken myself off of a cocktail that i couldn't take anyway
> > [Rescriptor, AZT and Ziagen] it's the 2nd time that i've tried this
> > cocktail with failure at six weeks due to projectile vomiting and
> other
> > problems [the vomiting is enough, people die from starvation,
> > dehydration and malnutrition] my previous cocktail was about 10
> > months' duration and consisted of Ziagen, D4t and 3tC. the Zerit
> [D4t]
> > created a painful peripheral neuropathy that is medicated now with
> > strong narcotics [fentanyl and oxycodone] and Neurontin at 1200
mg/day
> >
> > i have hope now. i have been off of street chemicals for over a
year

> > now, but smoke copious marijuana daily. i rarely drink alcohol, no
> > more than a few alcoholic drinks a month. i feel that i can get
> better
> > if i go for more of the alternative therapies, continue to avoid the
> > street drugs. i would love to get off the fentanyl and oxy but it
> just

> > hurts too much, i fear i would have to be institutionalized from the
> PN
> > alone.
> >
> > i just wanted to introduce myself, i have much to learn and hope i
> have

> > time to do it. any feedback is appreciated. thank you all for your
> > time, and i will read the posts and help when i can. i am not a
> > scientist and i won't pretend to be one, i'm here to learn what i
can
> > and apply it the best that i am able.
> >
> > and i rarely use CAPS, it's my "posting style".
> >
> > sincerely,
> > durtro
>
> Welcome durtro.
>
> I am curious what you think of Duesberg's ideas now that you've read
> his book.

thank you for the welcome. i'm still absorbing the Duesberg book and
am following up on his theories using my tiny brain and the internet,
but i can state that i don't think we are born with HIV as i tested
negative for many years before becoming exposed. i also doubt that
poppers cause KS, one of the first PWA's i met many years ago ['84] had
the most ravaging case of KS i have ever seen anywhere and i believe
him when he says he never ever did poppers. so, that's a clue that
fate has provided me, at least that's how i see it. i am forming a
belief that the cofactor to development of AIDS in HIV-positives is
drug use, whether street or pharmo.

i don't understand how Duesberg can draw a parallel between the rates
of new infection and the decreasing incidence of AIDS without
considering the intervention of these antiviral drugs in the widespread
use of them in HIV-positives. it seems like an obvious point to make,
yet he doesn't even consider it.

the suspicious beginnings of the AZT legacy seem totally believable,
the opportunistic drug companies and researchers dragging old mud off
the floor and calling it dinner in order to make money and secure
research dollars. there is so much self-interest there, maybe that's
the disease we need to battle first.

all studies can be skewed in favour of any outcome. i can only know
what my body tells me, and my gut goes towards the dissidents. again,
i don't know what's current, that book is five years old. he doesn't
discuss PI's at all [i can't take PI's, my body rejects them totally, i
get deathly ill in a few short weeks].

i am ripe for dissidence. my partner of five years is HIV negative
still, and we do things that are not recommended, without going
overboard. we are monogamous. he remains uninfected, but his previous
partner of ten years died of AIDS several years ago.

there are too many questions and the drugs just don't work for me. i
cannot tolerate them. they have made me considerably sicker than i
might be, who knows? my CD4-s have steadily decreased despite regimen.
i have lost 20 lbs since going on meds, and can't readily afford that.
the PN is murder, i'm angry, i'm screwed totally, again, [i've been
mismanaged by medicine in the past] apparently. like i say, i'm ripe.
but i do believe HIV has a role in AIDS, i am certain. my heart, mind,
and gut tell me that i would be better off without that in my body.
i've watched it grow and i've watched it wear me down, prior to getting
on meds. but, i was a rabid crystal meth freak and what did i know.

i think it's interesting that i maintained a CD4- count of 350 for a
three year period of crystal meth abuse. my viral load was usu under
25,000. i stopped doing crystal and picked up the antivirals and the
CD4-count dropped and continues dropping. i get current results next
week.

too many questions, and the drugs the medical establishment are
currently providing just don't work for me. i simply can't take them.
what am i supposed to think?

i know i might have gone further than you asked, but there you have it!

You evidently are HIV+. It is a good thing that you are off
> street "chemicals", as you say. As for alternative therapies, there
are
> dozens available. Most are snake oil, some might work. Caveat emptor.
> Try to get George Carter's attention. He has lots of good advice on
> supplements and such things.
>

it has to be a gut thing, doesn't it? have to try the DHEA, the other
things that are readily and easily available. i'll try them, after all
i tried this stuff. this chemical fertilizer, this AZT dd1 3tC d4t
Ziagen nightmare!

> A word of advice, durtro. Most of the so-called dissidents who post
> here are not. They are trolls. Homophobic, ignorant trolls. It can
take
> a newbie sometime to figure them out. Keep your head down, try your
> best to separate the wheat from the chaf, ignore absolutely everything
> fred has to say and you should do alright.

thanks for the tip, i'll figure figure fred out for myself! head
down...


>
> You can go to www.misc.health.org
>
> or http://www.aegis.com/hivinfoweb/search/index.html
>
> for more information.

thank you for the link...

>
> Once again, welcome.

and the welcome, and the dialogue.

ksta...@my-deja.com

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Aug 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/9/00
to
In article <8ms8sa$3qj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8ms58e$ss$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8mrv1m$rhs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > but not newbie to [...] projectile vomiting and [...] starvation,
> > > dehydration and malnutrition [...] painful peripheral neuropathy
> > > street chemicals for over a year [and] copious marijuana daily
[and]
> > > more than a few alcoholic drinks a month.
> > >
> > > i feel [...] alternative [...] love to get off [...] but it just
> > > hurts too much, i fear i [am] institutionalized [...] hope i have
> > > time to do it.
> > >

> > > durtro
> > >
> > > --
> > > www.mp3.com/durtro
> >
> > Wow! Did you really write "serotonin production-increase
facilitated
> > using EMF's as stimuli"? What a great song!
>
> yeah, that's an original. you should see it right up next to britney
> spears on the charts, but you never will.
>
> i like the poem that you made out of my post. it's a more accurate
> assessment than i would like to admit!
>
> -durt
>

The first thing I thought of when I heard it was Coil. Then I check
your "influences" section and sure enough...

Too bad you live all the way out in AZ, I'd sure love to hang with you.

Gary Stein

unread,
Aug 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/9/00
to
Welcome to the NG durtro, starting and stopping Ziagen can be very
dangerous, if you ever decide to go back on antivirals I would avoid
that drug from now on. To read a little bit about this news group take
a look at http://www.mischealthaids.org

--
Gary Stein
ges...@starpower.net
http://www.mischealthaids.org

"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and
a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect
it."
(Gene Spafford)

"durtro" <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8mrv1m$rhs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...


> but not newbie to HIV. although i have a lot to learn.
>
> i just read Peter Duesberg's book "Inventing the AIDS Virus" and
have
> since taken myself off of a cocktail that i couldn't take anyway
> [Rescriptor, AZT and Ziagen] it's the 2nd time that i've tried this
> cocktail with failure at six weeks due to projectile vomiting and
other
> problems [the vomiting is enough, people die from starvation,
> dehydration and malnutrition] my previous cocktail was about 10
> months' duration and consisted of Ziagen, D4t and 3tC. the Zerit
[D4t]
> created a painful peripheral neuropathy that is medicated now with
> strong narcotics [fentanyl and oxycodone] and Neurontin at 1200
mg/day
>

> i have hope now. i have been off of street chemicals for over a
year


> now, but smoke copious marijuana daily. i rarely drink alcohol, no
> more than a few alcoholic drinks a month. i feel that i can get
better
> if i go for more of the alternative therapies, continue to avoid the

> street drugs. i would love to get off the fentanyl and oxy but it
just


> hurts too much, i fear i would have to be institutionalized from the
PN
> alone.
>

> i just wanted to introduce myself, i have much to learn and hope i
have


> time to do it. any feedback is appreciated. thank you all for your
> time, and i will read the posts and help when i can. i am not a
> scientist and i won't pretend to be one, i'm here to learn what i
can
> and apply it the best that i am able.
>
> and i rarely use CAPS, it's my "posting style".
>
> sincerely,
> durtro
>

> --
> www.mp3.com/durtro

Bennett

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Aug 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/9/00
to
durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8mrv1m$rhs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> and i rarely use CAPS, it's my "posting style".

Too lazy to hit the shift key more like ;-)

Welcome - Gary and Mike have said the most useful stuff. Feel free to ask
whenever anything seems unclear, either here or in your own life. Your
effort to introduce yourself should mean that any awkward questions you ask
will be interpreted as just that (in the past some people have been, IMHO,
unfairly labelled as trolling - we can all get a little fed up here of
people out to cause nothing but trouble and may make presumptions).

Cheers

Bennett

Gary Stein

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Aug 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/9/00
to
"durtro" <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8msa87$4pe$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8ms0cd$sut$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

If your looking for more info on alternative and complementary
treatments such as DHEA etc take a look at;
http://www.medibolics.com/
http://www.aegis.com/pubs/beta/1998/be980107.htm
http://www.mischealthaids.org/alt-treat.htm
http://www.sfaf.org/treatment/beta/alternative.html
http://www.aegis.com/pubs/notes/1998/nt980903.html
http://www.aids.org/daair/membinfo.nsf
http://www.aidsinfonet.org/700-alternatives.html

The Neuropathy Aossocaition is at http://www.neuropathy.org/

For other treatment related info check out
http://www.mischealthaids.org/treatments.htm

For some answers to Duesburg's claims about AZT
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/publications/hivaids/23.htm

For a comprehensive list of research sources
http://www.mischealthaids.org/reference.htm

Good luck to you I to suffer for drug inducded PN and know what your
going through. For a brief history of my HIV/AIDS experience
http://webdiscuss.com/~gestein/garys_history_aids.htm

"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and
a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect
it."
(Gene Spafford)
>

GOD

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Aug 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/9/00
to

mcoo...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8ms0cd$sut$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
<SNIP>

... ignore absolutely everything fred has to say...


OR NOT!

durtro

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Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8msctj$s1l$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
"Gary Stein" <ges...@starpower.net> wrote:
<snip>

> If your looking for more info on alternative and complementary
> treatments such as DHEA etc take a look at;
> http://www.medibolics.com/
> http://www.aegis.com/pubs/beta/1998/be980107.htm
> http://www.mischealthaids.org/alt-treat.htm
> http://www.sfaf.org/treatment/beta/alternative.html
> http://www.aegis.com/pubs/notes/1998/nt980903.html
> http://www.aids.org/daair/membinfo.nsf
> http://www.aidsinfonet.org/700-alternatives.html
>
> The Neuropathy Aossocaition is at http://www.neuropathy.org/
>
> For other treatment related info check out
> http://www.mischealthaids.org/treatments.htm
>
> For some answers to Duesburg's claims about AZT
> http://www.niaid.nih.gov/publications/hivaids/23.htm
>
> For a comprehensive list of research sources
> http://www.mischealthaids.org/reference.htm
>
> Good luck to you I to suffer for drug inducded PN and know what your
> going through. For a brief history of my HIV/AIDS experience
> http://webdiscuss.com/~gestein/garys_history_aids.htm
> --
> Gary Stein
> ges...@starpower.net
> http://www.mischealthaids.org


thanks Gary, for all those valuable links, and for the welcome.

durtro

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Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <Mzlk5.226010$t91.2...@news4.giganews.com>,

oh, fred has my attention. i know i don't like people calling
him "frod", but apparently must get used to that. calling people out
of their name is just disrespectful and somewhat juvenile, but i guess
i'll have to get used to it. apparently, voices of dissent are met
with such amateur forms of derision, all over the world.
--
www.mp3.com/durtro

durtro

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Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8msepi$8eo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
<snip>

> The first thing I thought of when I heard it was Coil. Then I check
> your "influences" section and sure enough...

those are the boys, huh? Peter and John...i found Coil right about the
time i came out, in Washington DC about 16 years ago. the first queer
band that really spoke to me.

>
> Too bad you live all the way out in AZ, I'd sure love to hang with
you.

i don't think i could live anywhere else, i couldn't afford the
marijuana at the prices that are charged in other parts of the country,
not the way i smoke. cheap mexican pot and sunshine, the love of a
good man-that's what's keeping me alive.

durtro

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8ms049$esc$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,

"Gary Stein" <ges...@starpower.net> wrote:
> Welcome to the NG durtro, starting and stopping Ziagen can be very
> dangerous, if you ever decide to go back on antivirals I would avoid
> that drug from now on. To read a little bit about this news group take
> a look at http://www.mischealthaids.org

thank you, Gary...i've been reading the Fauci Files and that business
about Ziagen. i've stopped and started Ziagen 3 times under the
direction of my physician. needless to say, i won't start it again.

i will read the faq, again, thank you.

-durt

durtro

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Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8ms291$qo4$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,

"Bennett" <nj...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8mrv1m$rhs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >
> > and i rarely use CAPS, it's my "posting style".
>
> Too lazy to hit the shift key more like ;-)

possibly!

>
> Welcome - Gary and Mike have said the most useful stuff. Feel free
to ask
> whenever anything seems unclear, either here or in your own life.
Your
> effort to introduce yourself should mean that any awkward questions
you ask
> will be interpreted as just that (in the past some people have been,
IMHO,
> unfairly labelled as trolling - we can all get a little fed up here of
> people out to cause nothing but trouble and may make presumptions).
>
> Cheers
>
> Bennett
>
>

thanks for the greets, Bennett. right now, i'm just reading, and
trying to understand. the questions themselves aren't quite clear yet.

when i was taking the meds i was willing to believe that they would
work. i wanted them to work, i rarely missed a dose and if i did it
was because i knew i would only violently reject it. they don't work
for me, there is no drug group currently approved that i can tolerate,
so i guess i'm a "dissident by default". i can't argue scientific
points, but i will have questions.

again, thank you.

-durt

--
www.mp3.com/durtro

ksta...@my-deja.com

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Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8mu09q$ata$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8msepi$8eo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> <snip>
> > The first thing I thought of when I heard it was Coil. Then I check
> > your "influences" section and sure enough...
>
> those are the boys, huh? Peter and John...i found Coil right about
the
> time i came out, in Washington DC about 16 years ago. the first queer
> band that really spoke to me.

I remember when a friend turned me on to them. He played "Disco
Hospital" and he moved his head and mouthed the cut-up wordstream at the
same time in this way I'll never forget.

> >
> > Too bad you live all the way out in AZ, I'd sure love to hang with
> you.
>
> i don't think i could live anywhere else, i couldn't afford the
> marijuana at the prices that are charged in other parts of the
country,
> not the way i smoke. cheap mexican pot and sunshine, the love of a
> good man-that's what's keeping me alive.

Yeah, I've heard about that. I'm such a lab rat I just get off on
popping pills. It's such a groove to go to a restaurant and blow the
waitress's mind by pouring 30-40 pills into the breadplate. It's an art
form.

So far this morning I've taken ddI, ENDH, creatine monohydrate,
glutamine, DHEA, cordyceps sinesis, ginseng, ginko, acetyl L-carnitine
and I'm covered in Androgel and plan on shooting B-12. Then I can work
out. That's just the pre-breakfast stuff.

durtro

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8mu3jm$d0e$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8mu09q$ata$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <8msepi$8eo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > The first thing I thought of when I heard it was Coil. Then I
check
> > > your "influences" section and sure enough...
> >
> > those are the boys, huh? Peter and John...i found Coil right about
> the
> > time i came out, in Washington DC about 16 years ago. the first
queer
> > band that really spoke to me.
>
> I remember when a friend turned me on to them. He played "Disco
> Hospital" and he moved his head and mouthed the cut-up wordstream at
the
> same time in this way I'll never forget.

Coil fans are a dedicated lot, aren't we! i've never met a Coil fan
that i didn't like. really. but, i don't get out much!

>
> > >
> > > Too bad you live all the way out in AZ, I'd sure love to hang with
> > you.
> >
> > i don't think i could live anywhere else, i couldn't afford the
> > marijuana at the prices that are charged in other parts of the
> country,
> > not the way i smoke. cheap mexican pot and sunshine, the love of a
> > good man-that's what's keeping me alive.
>
> Yeah, I've heard about that. I'm such a lab rat I just get off on
> popping pills. It's such a groove to go to a restaurant and blow the
> waitress's mind by pouring 30-40 pills into the breadplate. It's an
art
> form.
>

tres elegante!

> So far this morning I've taken ddI, ENDH, creatine monohydrate,
> glutamine, DHEA, cordyceps sinesis, ginseng, ginko, acetyl L-carnitine
> and I'm covered in Androgel and plan on shooting B-12. Then I can
work
> out. That's just the pre-breakfast stuff.

i notice that ddI is the only [pharmo] antiviral that you mentioned.
i'm used to seeing 3. do you take any other approved antivirals?

--
www.mp3.com/durtro

GOD

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Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to

"durtro" <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8mtvi2$a7l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> > <SNIP>
> >
> > ... ignore absolutely everything fred has to say...
> >
> > OR NOT!
> >
> >
>
> oh, fred has my attention. i know i don't like people calling
> him "frod", but apparently must get used to that. calling people out
> of their name is just disrespectful and somewhat juvenile, but i guess
> i'll have to get used to it. apparently, voices of dissent are met
> with such amateur forms of derision, all over the world.

Good to see a voice of some reason. This newsgroup -- which should be a
forum for education and ideas -- is like a preschool playground with all the
name calling. The aids establishment/drug pushers are so threatened by the
dissidents that they defend their position by attacking all nay sayers
personally. It would be nice to just be able to read all ideas without all
the crap that follows up. Fred has an opinion just like everyone else. We
all have an opinion. The ones who lash out the most have the least
confidence in their position. It's pathetic. Good luck newbie. I'll be
curious to see how long it takes before they have you disgusted with this
newsgroup. Maybe you'll be a force for good and change some of these bitter
old folks into balanced people interested in finding a solution.

Nick Bennett

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, durtro wrote:

> thanks for the greets, Bennett. right now, i'm just reading, and
> trying to understand. the questions themselves aren't quite clear yet.

NP.

>
> when i was taking the meds i was willing to believe that they would
> work. i wanted them to work, i rarely missed a dose and if i did it
> was because i knew i would only violently reject it. they don't work
> for me, there is no drug group currently approved that i can tolerate,
> so i guess i'm a "dissident by default". i can't argue scientific
> points, but i will have questions.
>

Bit of a bummer that. I'm an advocate of taking the meds if it's clear
there's going to be a benefit (it's not always immediately clear that
there will be one, but that's what surrogate markers like viral load and
CD4 counts are for). I suppose if you can't tolerate the stuff you're,
like you say, in a different league by default. How many different ones
have you tried? Not all drugs within a class are the same.

I suppose if you're well, and with reasonable viral load and CD4 counts
it's not really an issue anyway :o) What prompted your docs to recommend
the drugs anyway, if you don't mind me asking?

Cheers

Bennett


ksta...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8mu4q5$dpr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Agenerase - six 150mg capsule bid (360/mo)
Ziagen - one 300mg tablets bid (60/mo)
Norvir - two 100mg capsules bid (120/mo)
VIDEX - two 200mg tablets qd (60/mo)

check me out at http://photos.yahoo.com/kstailey
(warning: "Art" pictures)

durtro

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <Rswk5.456621$MB.69...@news6.giganews.com>,

we're all human, capable of making mistakes. people just so
desperately want to get a handle on this HIV/AIDS, there is an urgency
that can't be denied. it's that urgency and sense of responsibility
that results in the tension. people just want to believe they have
some control on this HIV/AIDS dilemma.

how can science, by it's very nature claim to "definitively" resolve
the causal nature of HIV in AIDS with so many unanswered questions?

and no one can tell me that this science, which should be driven by
desire for knowledge and natural curiousity, isn't currently driven by
self-interest and greed. there's too much money flying around-too much
at stake for the powers that be.

the critical eye must be turned toward this dilemma. confrontation
shouldn't deny truth-only encourage it.

--
www.mp3.com/durtro

durtro

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8mu5p0$eg6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8mu4q5$dpr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
<snip>

> >
> > i notice that ddI is the only [pharmo] antiviral that you mentioned.
> > i'm used to seeing 3. do you take any other approved antivirals?
> >
>
> Agenerase - six 150mg capsule bid (360/mo)
> Ziagen - one 300mg tablets bid (60/mo)
> Norvir - two 100mg capsules bid (120/mo)
> VIDEX - two 200mg tablets qd (60/mo)
>

you seem to be tolerating them very well, by your "art" photos! ;-)
all those drugs, as far as i know, make me extremely ill in a short
period of time [although i felt really good about Ziagen, until
recently]

i'm envious. honestly. i just wanted a regimen that i could take,
that's all. and i can't have it, it doesn't exist. i'm a fourth-round
failure.

i'll try the fusion inhibitor when it comes out. i'll try whatever the
fuck "they" come up with, to be honest. and "they" know it.


> check me out at http://photos.yahoo.com/kstailey
> (warning: "Art" pictures)

i did!

ksta...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8mu72r$fe0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8mu5p0$eg6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8mu4q5$dpr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> > >
> > > i notice that ddI is the only [pharmo] antiviral that you
mentioned.
> > > i'm used to seeing 3. do you take any other approved antivirals?
> > >
> >
> > Agenerase - six 150mg capsule bid (360/mo)
> > Ziagen - one 300mg tablets bid (60/mo)
> > Norvir - two 100mg capsules bid (120/mo)
> > VIDEX - two 200mg tablets qd (60/mo)
> >
>
> you seem to be tolerating them very well, by your "art" photos! ;-)
> all those drugs, as far as i know, make me extremely ill in a short
> period of time

Yeah that happened to me too. Agenerase was like a punch in the stomach
and Ziagen gave me rash so bad the welts all merged into one big ugly.
But I'm a side-effect denialist and I just did the things that made it
all go away.

durtro

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0008101231310.29519-
100...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>,

Nick Bennett <nj...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, durtro wrote:
>
> > thanks for the greets, Bennett. right now, i'm just reading, and
> > trying to understand. the questions themselves aren't quite clear
yet.
>
> NP.
>
> >
> > when i was taking the meds i was willing to believe that they would
> > work. i wanted them to work, i rarely missed a dose and if i did it
> > was because i knew i would only violently reject it. they don't
work
> > for me, there is no drug group currently approved that i can
tolerate,
> > so i guess i'm a "dissident by default". i can't argue scientific
> > points, but i will have questions.
> >
>
> Bit of a bummer that. I'm an advocate of taking the meds if it's
clear
> there's going to be a benefit (it's not always immediately clear that
> there will be one, but that's what surrogate markers like viral load
and
> CD4 counts are for). I suppose if you can't tolerate the stuff
you're,
> like you say, in a different league by default. How many different
ones
> have you tried? Not all drugs within a class are the same.

Viracept
Viramune
ddI
ddC
3tC
d4t
Ziagen
Rescriptor

the most tolerated regimen was d4t, 3tc and Ziagen, which resulted in
the PN and merely maintenance of my CD4 level over an eleven-month
course at about 200 CD4. after the failure of the [initial] PI cocktail
with CD4 at around 350, i waited a year and then went back for Round
II. i was Rx'd the Viramune cocktail which i had a suicidal-anxiety
reaction to. it was pretty severe. then went onto a "light" regimen
of Ziagen, d4t and 3tC for eleven months which maintained my CD4 at a
level of 200, after a slight initial increase at four weeks, to 350
[got my hopes up]

the current formula that my body rejected on two rounds was Rescriptor,
Ziagen, and AZT. i restarted the regimen after considering that the
projectile vomiting i was experiencing was due to diffuse PN affecting
my autonomic NS. both rounds of that cocktail were five-six weeks. i
had five-week "vacations" between rounds.

i felt in my gut that the vomiting was caused by the Rescriptor, and
out of fear continued to take the Ziagen and AZT for several weeks
after discontinuing the Rescriptor. it was the Rescriptor, my gut was
right.

but now i'm afraid to restart Ziagen in any cocktail, and i felt that
was tolerated well.

>
> I suppose if you're well, and with reasonable viral load and CD4
counts
> it's not really an issue anyway :o) What prompted your docs to
recommend
> the drugs anyway, if you don't mind me asking?

after failure of the initial PI cocktail i waited until there was a
decline in CD4 marker into my personal "fear zone" of around 300 CD4
i was gun-shy. i waited until i felt i had to do something-and i had
to get off the crystal meth, first. had to get off of that garbage...

didn't mind at all, Bennett. thanks...

-durt

durtro

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8mu7j9$fr3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8mu72r$fe0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <8mu5p0$eg6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > In article <8mu4q5$dpr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > i notice that ddI is the only [pharmo] antiviral that you
> mentioned.
> > > > i'm used to seeing 3. do you take any other approved
antivirals?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Agenerase - six 150mg capsule bid (360/mo)
> > > Ziagen - one 300mg tablets bid (60/mo)
> > > Norvir - two 100mg capsules bid (120/mo)
> > > VIDEX - two 200mg tablets qd (60/mo)
> > >
> >
> > you seem to be tolerating them very well, by your "art" photos! ;-)
> > all those drugs, as far as i know, make me extremely ill in a short
> > period of time
>
> Yeah that happened to me too. Agenerase was like a punch in the
stomach
> and Ziagen gave me rash so bad the welts all merged into one big ugly.
> But I'm a side-effect denialist and I just did the things that made it
> all go away.
>

tell me, how i can do that. there isn't enough dope in the world to
medicate those sides, from what i could see. and by dope i mean the Rx
dope, the oxycodone, the clonopin. was i just some ludicrous pussy?
i'd hate to think so. i'd like to think i gave it my best shot.

i just don't know and i'm honestly scared to shit. i'm terrified. i
don't know what to do.

--
www.mp3.com/durtro

ksta...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8mu8et$gcp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Someone told me that only I could be my savior from this disease, that I
had to be responsible for my wellness. It's a process, I'm always
evaluating what I do, asking myself "is this the best thing I can do for
my health?" I seek out people who have succeeded and try to find out
what it is that helped them. It's like Underworld's "m.e." from
dubnobasswithmyheadman says "I don't want a good time. I wanted to
live. etc."

don lucas

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
namaste,

GOD wrote (in part):

> Fred has an opinion just like everyone else. We all have an opinion.

yes, he does, and he was kind enough to post it in the following:

You are a "Dissident", Be Proud. You are a rebel. Stay that way. Want
NOTHING from the establishment. EVER.

They are the Thought Police. They are the establishment. They are what
Orwell warned about, yet they are much, much worse than that.

Never forget this. Don't allow them to play the rebel while hiding
behind their establishment fortifications. They aren't rebels. They are
buffoons, pathological liars, and greedy bribe-takers. They work for
cheap and don't think twice about killing their fellow man for the chump
change they need to put their ugly fat wives in a nice Mercedes.

Don't tell them anything they can use against you. Lie. Say you're a
doctor who won't murder your patients with their shit poisons and fecal
lies. Ignore their challenges, obscenities and smears. Snip their
shit-flinging comments and turn the internet into The Great Equalizer.

Use multiple fake ids. Dozens. Hundreds. Make one appear to be a huge
crowd. Make the crowd cheer you and boo them. That's how Hitler won the
Chancellory when he was the rebel -- that is a rebel tactic that you can
easily deprive them of. They are stupid, you are smart. That's why
you're the thinking rebel and they are the greedy establishment drones.
They are below stupid. They are inbreds. They are subhuman. They have
one pair of grandparents for both their mom and dad, who were siblings.
They sometimes know that 2 + 2 = 4, but believe me, they won't be happy
about that one bit if it doesn't benefit them, make their stupid ugly
wives "happy" or pay the bill for the Mercedes.

They are establishment scum. They like to slash down forests and
slaughter endangered species like OWLS. "We need jobs not owls" they
scream as they destroy and plunder Spaceship Earth for their Prozac
"happiness". There are many more of them than you. But YOU are the
rebel because you know what stupid, selfish, thoughtless cretins and
pigs that they truly are.

You are a rebel, so be the best rebel you can be. Don't just be a bear,
be a Grizzly. Don't argue and negotiate with them, just eat them.

You are a rebel, never forget that. Use rebel tactics because when they
try that on behalf of their precious establishment Thought Police, they
are as obvious as poop in a punchbowl. Point that out. Laugh at them.
Call them "poop" because that's what they carry in their wallets for
identification. Get personal with them before they get personal with
you. Hit and run. Make them suffer nervous breakdowns because you know
how nervous they really are over the suspicion that a "rebel is out
there... somewhere!". Play to their Thought Police paranoia, Prozac
prescriptions and addiction to Viagra for their little limp dicks. Give
them more reasons to be paranoid. Make their little dicks limper.

Play them like they are a video game, and you will soon be winning every
time. YOU are the rebel, not them! Make them eat their stupid rules.
Cheat.

They have the fixed fortifications and the burden of proof. Make them
prove their case and defend their tacky forts. Again and again. Point
out their missing universe of evidence. Insult their leaders. Call those
they admire "prostitutes", "hookers", "hos" or Robert Gallo, because
they are. Show them how silly their superstitions are. Laugh at them.
Tell them they are stupid, their wives are fat and ugly and STILL
sleeping around on them, because that's what their fat ugly wives are
thinking about their whoring around with their young skinny sexetary
with the big tits. Kick the living shit out of their heroes. Point out
that Robert Gallo had an out-of-wedlock child with Flossie Wong Staal.
"Horizontal Research" in the search for the "AIDS" cure that never came
because the "treatments" are far too profitable and keep their ugly
wives in that nice new Mercedes.

If they mutter "enough" after a good thrashing, kick them harder.
HARDER! When they plea for "discussion", don't believe them, rather, set
more traps to embarass, humiliate and punish them. Think of the bloodied
bodies of baby seals. THEY did that! Don't feel sorry for them ... ever.
Trust these words and you can't go wrong. SHOW NO MERCY.

They can be beaten because they are weak and stupid. Even a weirdo like
Hitler took them over, no problem. Hitler didn't shape them in his
image, they shiped Hitler into theirs. They are Nazi's, racists, sissies
and perverts. The courts are FULL of their bickering and bullshit --
they have destroyed the notion of "justice". They're the ones who drive
alone in the carpool lane with plastic blow up sex dolls in the rider's
seat because they are always late to "work".

NEVER believe a word they say -- every word they utter has only one
purpose: to manipulate you to "go along". They want someone else to kill
endangered owls so the price of their crappy little high-density Thought
Police houses stay cheap. They say they love their country but they lie.

Just listen to them sing the National Anthem some time -- NONE of them
know the words. NOT ONE. They are liars, theives and murderers of baby
seals and endangered owls.

They don't care about Exxon Valdez and the environmental slaughter of
one of their drunk captains, they only want dollar-a-gallon gas -- they
don't give a shit how many baby seals get slaughtered as long as their
fat ugly wives adorn themselves in dead animal furs. They are stupid.

They are powerless in their sniveling failed struggle to be "me too"
heroes for a pile of corpses they helped murder.

Rebel Rule #1: You MUST NOT want anything from them, or you instantly
become them. Is that what you want?

George Orwell showed us who they are. Have no mercy on them. EVER!

> The ones who lash out the most have the least confidence in their
> position. It's pathetic.

yes it is. for more of fred's "opinions" and the lack of confidence in
his position, search m.h.a., past discussions on deja.news - use the
word "donbo".

take care, be well.

donpaul lucas
hiv+ 17 years (asymptomatic, stage 2)
13 years anti-viral veteran

mcoo...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8mu696$eu3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > the crap that follows up. Fred has an opinion just like everyone
> else. We

> > all have an opinion. The ones who lash out the most have the least
> > confidence in their position. It's pathetic. Good luck newbie.
> I'll be
> > curious to see how long it takes before they have you disgusted with
> this
> > newsgroup. Maybe you'll be a force for good and change some of
these
> bitter
> > old folks into balanced people interested in finding a solution.
> >
> >
>
> we're all human, capable of making mistakes. people just so
> desperately want to get a handle on this HIV/AIDS, there is an urgency
> that can't be denied. it's that urgency and sense of responsibility
> that results in the tension. people just want to believe they have
> some control on this HIV/AIDS dilemma.

This GOD character is being disingenuous. It is true that people
posting to this newsgroup can get testy and engage in name calling.
I've done it. This is usenet, so get used to it.

However, the people who are the targets of the flames usually are the
trolls (like GOD, but there are a great many others) and people like
Fred. You claim that you have read Fred's posts. OK, durtro, do you
suppose that we, the regulars haven't seen these posts dozens of times
before? They are called regurgiposts because he reposts them
periodically despite the many many times we have addressed the shoddy
thinking he engages in. How many times must we refute his arguments,
while being called "murdering bastards" before we take the kid gloves
off, eh durtro?

If you don't like poster's styles you have three choices. Ignore them.
Respond calmly. Or give as good as you get. Be forewarned, however, if
you, like Fred, make repeated posts that are refuted continuously and
if you do it with the kind of insults Fred is renowned for (in addition
to the gratutious insults, he forges posts, uses aliases and accuses
people of crimes) you had better be wearing asbestos undies, durtro.

So don't be so sanguine about the so-called "dissidents" on this ng.
They have been thoroughly debunked and continue to come back with
arguments that have been refuted for years. You will get, and you
should expect, no quarter, if you use the same ignorant and insulting
tactics.


>
> how can science, by it's very nature claim to "definitively" resolve
> the causal nature of HIV in AIDS with so many unanswered questions?

OK, durtro. Just what, exactly, are these "many unanswered questions".
Think before you respond. More importantly, go to the sites that Gary
and I gave you to see if your "unanswered questions" about HIV/AIDS
causality have not been addressed before.

>
> and no one can tell me that this science, which should be driven by
> desire for knowledge and natural curiousity, isn't currently driven by
> self-interest and greed. there's too much money flying around-too
much
> at stake for the powers that be.

This is an old one, durtro. These kinds of accusations have been heard
many many times. Perhaps you'd like to back this up with, oh say, some
evidence? Like some evidenc that the connection between HIV/AIDS comes
about becasue of greed and NOT because the scientific evidence for this
relationship is overwhelming.

Don't you think public health concerns about an often fatal pandemic
are just as important a "driving" factor in this science, which, btw is
NOT restricted to HIV or even AIDS, as the "desire for knowledge and
natural curiosity"?

BAH. You see durtro, this is the kind of thing we hear over and over
here on MHA.


>
> the critical eye must be turned toward this dilemma. confrontation
> shouldn't deny truth-only encourage it.

Yes. One should take great pains to avoid denying the truth. Perhaps
you send these sentiments to Duesberg.

DGiunti

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8mtvi2$a7l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> writes:

>oh, fred has my attention. i know i don't like people calling
>him "frod", but apparently must get used to that. calling people out
>of their name is just disrespectful and somewhat juvenile, but i guess
>i'll have to get used to it. apparently, voices of dissent are met
>with such amateur forms of derision, all over the world.

>-

It is not that so much as Frod doesn't have the balls to back up his
outrageous lies. If you want to find disrespectful messages, do a Deja news
sort on this conference for the words Shaw (his real name) or Mike Hunt or
VampWatch (Just a couple of his phony account names) or Marty (one of Frod's
psychotic delusions). This last one will supply you with Troll banter for days
of reading.

Fred grew up and became a Troll.

David Giunti email: DGi...@aol.community
What is the question? Gertrude Stein's last words
No one mouth is big enough to utter the whole thing. Alan Watts

On Display in the UK http://www.web-gallery.co.uk

ksta...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8mu8et$gcp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8mu7j9$fr3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8mu72r$fe0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> --
> www.mp3.com/durtro

Rasputin ate arsenic cakes; he was immune.
He had taken little bits of arsenic often for years.

Yuri Kuchinsky

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:

: ... i also doubt that


: poppers cause KS, one of the first PWA's i met many years ago ['84] had
: the most ravaging case of KS i have ever seen anywhere and i believe

: him when he says he never ever did poppers. so, that's a clue that


: fate has provided me, at least that's how i see it.

durtro,

In some early studies, 100% of patients presenting with KS were Nitrite
users. Surely you cannot hope to use your one anecdotal case to disprove
such overwhelming evidence that Nitrites are a big factor in causing KS?

Good luck in your research, and in trying to find answers to your
questions. Your life may depend on it, obviously.

Yuri.

-=O=- Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=-

Why are over 700 MDs and/or PhDs of the Group for the Scientific
Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis so concerned? For a good
introduction to problems with HIV science, please visit,

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index.htm

These professional scientists do not believe HIV exists,

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index/epapadopoulos.htm

There are three steps in the revelation of any truth: in the first, it
is ridiculed; in the second, it is resisted; in the third, it is
considered self-evident -=- Arthur Schopenhauer

durtro

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
In article <8muk45$q2d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
mcoo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8mu696$eu3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <Rswk5.456621$MB.69...@news6.giganews.com>,
> > "GOD" <unoth...@heaven.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > "durtro" <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8mtvi2$a7l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > >
> > > > > <SNIP>
> > > > >
> > > > > ... ignore absolutely everything fred has to say...
> > > > >
> > > > > OR NOT!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > oh, fred has my attention. i know i don't like people calling
> > > > him "frod", but apparently must get used to that. calling
people
> > out
> > > > of their name is just disrespectful and somewhat juvenile, but i
> > guess
> > > > i'll have to get used to it. apparently, voices of dissent are
> met
> > > > with such amateur forms of derision, all over the world.
> > >

i've been active on Usenet for over three years, i know what i'm in for.
and i can take care of myself, thank you.

>
> However, the people who are the targets of the flames usually are the
> trolls (like GOD, but there are a great many others) and people like
> Fred. You claim that you have read Fred's posts. OK, durtro, do you
> suppose that we, the regulars haven't seen these posts dozens of times
> before? They are called regurgiposts because he reposts them
> periodically despite the many many times we have addressed the shoddy
> thinking he engages in. How many times must we refute his arguments,
> while being called "murdering bastards" before we take the kid gloves
> off, eh durtro?

ok, so i'm new here. a little grace, please? your condescending tone
is showing. i don't pretend to know anything, and the more i read
these days it seems the less that i know.

>
> If you don't like poster's styles you have three choices. Ignore them.
> Respond calmly. Or give as good as you get. Be forewarned, however, if
> you, like Fred, make repeated posts that are refuted continuously and
> if you do it with the kind of insults Fred is renowned for (in
addition
> to the gratutious insults, he forges posts, uses aliases and accuses
> people of crimes) you had better be wearing asbestos undies, durtro.

i'm not here to incite anything. i thought this ng was a place i could
post about my experiences with HIV, and get [thoughtful] feedback. i
guess this is sci.med.aids without all the degrees.

>
> So don't be so sanguine about the so-called "dissidents" on this ng.
> They have been thoroughly debunked and continue to come back with
> arguments that have been refuted for years. You will get, and you
> should expect, no quarter, if you use the same ignorant and insulting
> tactics.
>

have you seen any evidence of any hostility or desire to incite
anything in any of my posts? i feel i've been graceful and humble.


> >
> > how can science, by it's very nature claim to "definitively" resolve
> > the causal nature of HIV in AIDS with so many unanswered questions?
>
> OK, durtro. Just what, exactly, are these "many unanswered questions".
> Think before you respond. More importantly, go to the sites that Gary
> and I gave you to see if your "unanswered questions" about HIV/AIDS
> causality have not been addressed before.
>

i'm working on it. right now, i'm a little overloaded, to tell you the
truth.

> >
> > and no one can tell me that this science, which should be driven by
> > desire for knowledge and natural curiousity, isn't currently driven
by
> > self-interest and greed. there's too much money flying around-too
> much
> > at stake for the powers that be.
>
> This is an old one, durtro. These kinds of accusations have been heard
> many many times. Perhaps you'd like to back this up with, oh say, some
> evidence? Like some evidenc that the connection between HIV/AIDS comes
> about becasue of greed and NOT because the scientific evidence for
this
> relationship is overwhelming.

i didn't say there isn't a connection between HIV and AIDS, i certainly
do believe there is a connection. i have questions about the efficacy
of these drugs. that's my area, right now.


>
> Don't you think public health concerns about an often fatal pandemic
> are just as important a "driving" factor in this science, which, btw
is
> NOT restricted to HIV or even AIDS, as the "desire for knowledge and
> natural curiosity"?
>
> BAH. You see durtro, this is the kind of thing we hear over and over
> here on MHA.
> >

so, people shouldn't feel this way. ok, now we're all better. thanks.


> > the critical eye must be turned toward this dilemma. confrontation
> > shouldn't deny truth-only encourage it.
>
> Yes. One should take great pains to avoid denying the truth. Perhaps
> you send these sentiments to Duesberg.
>

perhaps you should drop the condescending shit and regard me as a human
being, instead of as a set of pat responses to moot points.

--
www.mp3.com/durtro

GOD

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to

<mcoo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8muk45$q2d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> This GOD character is being disingenuous.

See what I mean? Who are you to call me disingenuous? You confirm in your
own words to follow that what I have asserted is true. Maybe it would be of
some beneefit to look up the word before you use it.

> It is true that people
> posting to this newsgroup can get testy and engage in name calling.
> I've done it. This is usenet, so get used to it.

I suppose that if your logic were followed out then we might say "this is
the inner city, people shoot each other, get used to it." Just because it
occurs does not mean it should. This newsgroup in particular should be in
search of an answer, not tearing each other to shreds just because you
disagree. It's embarrasing.

> However, the people who are the targets of the flames usually are the
> trolls

There again. What makes me anymore a troll than you? What's the difference
between us that makes me the troll? It's funny how the use of the word
troll is meant to somehow discredit a poster. Funny too that it never
really works to that end.

> (like GOD, but there are a great many others) and people like
> Fred. You claim that you have read Fred's posts. OK, durtro, do you
> suppose that we, the regulars haven't seen these posts dozens of times
> before? They are called regurgiposts because he reposts them
> periodically despite the many many times we have addressed the shoddy
> thinking he engages in. How many times must we refute his arguments,
> while being called "murdering bastards" before we take the kid gloves
> off, eh durtro?

You don't realize how ignorant that paragraph sounds do you? You have only
refuted Fred's opinion succesfully for yourself but not all people believe
as you do. I'll agree that calling your side "murdering bastards" is the
wrong choice but you fail to give their side ANY credit. Any time one calls
another a murderer it is an indicator that the person feels that people are
being killed for no reason. That in itself is an indicator that they
somehow care. Funny how it's all like a new religion. It's always us being
right and them being wrong even though we are all in search of the same
thing.

> If you don't like poster's styles you have three choices. Ignore them.
> Respond calmly. Or give as good as you get. Be forewarned, however, if
> you, like Fred, make repeated posts that are refuted continuously and
> if you do it with the kind of insults Fred is renowned for (in addition
> to the gratutious insults, he forges posts, uses aliases and accuses
> people of crimes) you had better be wearing asbestos undies, durtro.

It is a sure bet that you will never be appointed ambassador to anything or
any place or any one.

> So don't be so sanguine about the so-called "dissidents" on this ng.
> They have been thoroughly debunked and continue to come back with
> arguments that have been refuted for years. You will get, and you
> should expect, no quarter, if you use the same ignorant and insulting
> tactics.

The disidents exist because there are questions still not answered. If
there were no question they would not exist. They argue because there are
people living and not dying from the supposed deadly hiv virus. They argue
a point because it appears that some peoples lives are being cut short due
to the laundry lists of drugs the medical establishment is pushing. There
are several reasons disidents wave their flag just as there are several
reasons you wave yours.

> >
> > how can science, by it's very nature claim to "definitively" resolve
> > the causal nature of HIV in AIDS with so many unanswered questions?
>
> OK, durtro. Just what, exactly, are these "many unanswered questions".
> Think before you respond. More importantly, go to the sites that Gary
> and I gave you to see if your "unanswered questions" about HIV/AIDS
> causality have not been addressed before.

What would be the point in him posing the same old questions? Just to have
you and the others throw out your carpet on top of his and so on.

> > and no one can tell me that this science, which should be driven by
> > desire for knowledge and natural curiousity, isn't currently driven by
> > self-interest and greed. there's too much money flying around-too
> much
> > at stake for the powers that be.
>
> This is an old one, durtro. These kinds of accusations have been heard
> many many times. Perhaps you'd like to back this up with, oh say, some
> evidence? Like some evidenc that the connection between HIV/AIDS comes
> about becasue of greed and NOT because the scientific evidence for this
> relationship is overwhelming.

Funny that money controls everything we see. That being true then we can
say that money controls this new religion called aids.

> Don't you think public health concerns about an often fatal pandemic
> are just as important a "driving" factor in this science, which, btw is
> NOT restricted to HIV or even AIDS, as the "desire for knowledge and
> natural curiosity"?

Money has always been shown to be the ultimate goal of people. Especially
those who are disconnected from the average society by a vast difference in
wealth. Money always wins out over everything. Look at any aspect of our
lives and show how that is not so. You can't even go to a descent church
without being hit up for some cash for the new construction.

> BAH. You see durtro, this is the kind of thing we hear over and over
> here on MHA.
> >

GOD

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to
Agreed that Fred has poured a bit too much into the following but he has
points just as we all do. His sort of rant here is a sign of a man who is
frustrated with what has become the normal and he sees no sign of change. I
do agree that there is a bit to be concerned about but there is a bit for us
all to be concerned about. Fred is no different than you or I. He is just
a man or woman or whatever he chooses to be. The point is he has an opinion
that is choked full of valid points. If you can't see it, it is only
because you don't WANT to.

"don lucas" <lu...@erie.net> wrote in message news:3992CD...@erie.net...

Robert S. Holzman

unread,
Aug 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/10/00
to

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
>
> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> : ... i also doubt that
> : poppers cause KS, one of the first PWA's i met many years ago ['84] had
> : the most ravaging case of KS i have ever seen anywhere and i believe
> : him when he says he never ever did poppers. so, that's a clue that
> : fate has provided me, at least that's how i see it.
>
> durtro,
>
> In some early studies, 100% of patients presenting with KS were Nitrite
> users. Surely you cannot hope to use your one anecdotal case to disprove
> such overwhelming evidence that Nitrites are a big factor in causing KS?
>

How many cases would it take?

Gary Stein

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
"GOD" <unoth...@heaven.com> wrote in message
news:utGk5.230320$t91.2...@news4.giganews.com...

The problem being most of the so called dissidents ask questions that
have been fully answered by literally hundreds of peer review papers
to the satisfaction of thousands of much better qualified scientists,
while ignoring many important questions.

Rather then questioning the HIV=AIDS hypothesis, or regurgitating the
AZT, Recreational Drugs = AIDS hypothesis which at this stage of the
science is a complete waste of time, they could be asking questions
that might have some benefit to the thousands of people living with
HIV/AIDS. For example the could ask;

Why are the drugs so outrageously expensive especially since the US
taxpayer footed a portion of the R&D costs that resulted in these
drugs.

Or why isn't more attention paid to finding drugs with less side
effects so people like dutro who started this thread could find a
regimen that he can tolerate.

Much more money needs to be spent on complementary & alternative
treatments both to help fight HIV and to counteract the side effects
of the meds this would be another good line of discussion that could
be dealt with here on MHA.

Yet because of sites like Virusmyth, and Duesburg.com people who are
compassionate and truly care about the damage that can be done to
people if they follow the recommendations of those sites we spend most
of our time here on MHA trying to show people that they have been lied
to by those sites.

If
> there were no question they would not exist. They argue because
there are

> people living and not dying from the supposed deadly HIV virus.

Yes there are people that can survive just about every known infection
does that mean those infections don't exist, no it simply means people
are different and have different genetic makeup's and different immune
systems. Sadly, true long term nonprogessors are a very small
percentage of the people infected with HIV, just because they exist
should the vast majority of HIV/AIDS patients be ignored?

> They argue
> a point because it appears that some peoples lives are being cut
short due
> to the laundry lists of drugs the medical establishment is pushing.

Yes as with any medication there are some that will have adverse
reactions, all people need to perform thoughtful risk benefit analysis
and decided for themselves if the antivirals make sense. For the vast
majority of AIDS patients the answer is the meds or death it really
that simple. That said much more needs to be done to improve the
quality of life of AIDS patients now that we can be kept alive for
more then the less then 2 years that was the norm pre-HAART.

"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea
massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and
a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect
it."
(Gene Spafford)

David Canzi

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <Rswk5.456621$MB.69...@news6.giganews.com>,
GOD <unoth...@heaven.com> wrote:
>... like a preschool playground with all the

>name calling. The aids establishment/drug pushers

Congratulations. You just went from disapproving an act to committing
that same act in record time.

--
David Canzi |For every scientific revolutionary there are 100,000 cranks.|

durtro

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <3992CD...@erie.net>,

lu...@erie.net wrote:
> namaste,
>
> GOD wrote (in part):
>
> > Fred has an opinion just like everyone else. We all have an
opinion.
>
> yes, he does, and he was kind enough to post it in the following:

> <snip deeper truth>


>
> yes it is. for more of fred's "opinions" and the lack of confidence in
> his position, search m.h.a., past discussions on deja.news - use the
> word "donbo".
>
> take care, be well.
>
> donpaul lucas
> hiv+ 17 years (asymptomatic, stage 2)
> 13 years anti-viral veteran
>

thank you, donpaul,for posting that. it speaks to my heart, what's
left of it. "they" have ground me down, i am too tired to fight "them"
anymore. i have surrendered. it's a fucking shame, really.

best wishes to you -
durt

durtro

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <8mv180$4sj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8mu8et$gcp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <8mu7j9$fr3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> <snip>

> ugly.
> > > But I'm a side-effect denialist and I just did the things that
made
> it
> > > all go away.
> > >
> >
> > tell me, how i can do that. there isn't enough dope in the world to
> > medicate those sides, from what i could see. and by dope i mean the
> Rx
> > dope, the oxycodone, the clonopin. was i just some ludicrous pussy?
> > i'd hate to think so. i'd like to think i gave it my best shot.
> >
> > i just don't know and i'm honestly scared to shit. i'm terrified.
i
> > don't know what to do.
> >
> <snip>

> Rasputin ate arsenic cakes; he was immune.
> He had taken little bits of arsenic often for years.
>

i'd rather just eat this whole fucking bottle of Ziagen here. i guess
i'd have a couple of minutes before i shit my brains out for the last
time.

i have balance. i spend half my time praying for death, the other half
figuring out how to live, and having to fight to do it.

it's a sine-wave reality that has me bouncing all over the place. i
fear dementia, wonder if it's what i'm seeing and touching and
forgetting. hard for that not to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

like i said, i'm just fucking terrified. i spend so much time just
scared shitless anymore.

durtro

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <8muf43$luk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8mu8et$gcp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <8mu7j9$fr3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > In article <8mu72r$fe0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > > In article <8mu5p0$eg6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

> > > > ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > > In article <8mu4q5$dpr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > > > durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > > <snip>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i notice that ddI is the only [pharmo] antiviral that you
> > > mentioned.
> > > > > > i'm used to seeing 3. do you take any other approved
> > antivirals?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Agenerase - six 150mg capsule bid (360/mo)
> > > > > Ziagen - one 300mg tablets bid (60/mo)
> > > > > Norvir - two 100mg capsules bid (120/mo)
> > > > > VIDEX - two 200mg tablets qd (60/mo)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > you seem to be tolerating them very well, by your "art" photos!
> ;-)
> > > > all those drugs, as far as i know, make me extremely ill in a
> short
> > > > period of time
> > >
> > > Yeah that happened to me too. Agenerase was like a punch in the
> > stomach
> > > and Ziagen gave me rash so bad the welts all merged into one big

> ugly.
> > > But I'm a side-effect denialist and I just did the things that
made
> it
> > > all go away.
> > >
> >
> > tell me, how i can do that. there isn't enough dope in the world to
> > medicate those sides, from what i could see. and by dope i mean the
> Rx
> > dope, the oxycodone, the clonopin. was i just some ludicrous pussy?
> > i'd hate to think so. i'd like to think i gave it my best shot.
> >
> > i just don't know and i'm honestly scared to shit. i'm terrified.
i
> > don't know what to do.
> >
>
> Someone told me that only I could be my savior from this disease,
that I
> had to be responsible for my wellness. It's a process, I'm always
> evaluating what I do, asking myself "is this the best thing I can do
for
> my health?" I seek out people who have succeeded and try to find out
> what it is that helped them. It's like Underworld's "m.e." from
> dubnobasswithmyheadman says "I don't want a good time. I wanted to
> live. etc."
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>

i just feel more doomed than in the recent past, before the awakening
of the PN, when i was safe in the arms of reasonably-tolerated
antiretrovirals.

and also need to take better care of myself, in many ways. lifestyle
disease. i'll pull it all off, in a nick of time. story of my life,
just in time. maybe i stopped anti-retrovirals just in time, to save
my own life-i don't know. that' s what i'm here to try to find out, i
need information. i need all the fucking information my brain can
stand.

oh yeah, feeling like a deadman i confessed, i have HepC too. does
that make me extraspeciallysick, or perhaps explain my intolerance to
the antiretrovirals? i can only wonder...

durtrodeadman

durtro

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <8mv0q6$2ntr$2...@news.tht.net>,

no, Yuri, i *do* believe nitrites are an important factor...but there
must be another! possibly one of the herpes virii.

>
> Good luck in your research, and in trying to find answers to your
> questions. Your life may depend on it, obviously.
>
> Yuri.
>

don't you know it!


> -=O=- Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=-
>
> Why are over 700 MDs and/or PhDs of the Group for the Scientific
> Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis so concerned? For a good
> introduction to problems with HIV science, please visit,
>
> http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index.htm
>
> These professional scientists do not believe HIV exists,
>
> http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index/epapadopoulos.htm
>
> There are three steps in the revelation of any truth: in the first, it
> is ridiculed; in the second, it is resisted; in the third, it is
> considered self-evident -=- Arthur Schopenhauer
>

--

ksta...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <8n04tc$uu3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8mv180$4sj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

> ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8mu8et$gcp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > In article <8mu7j9$fr3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > <snip>

> > ugly.
> > > > But I'm a side-effect denialist and I just did the things that
> made
> > it
> > > > all go away.
> > > >
> > >
> > > tell me, how i can do that. there isn't enough dope in the world
to
> > > medicate those sides, from what i could see. and by dope i mean
the
> > Rx
> > > dope, the oxycodone, the clonopin. was i just some ludicrous
pussy?
> > > i'd hate to think so. i'd like to think i gave it my best shot.
> > >
> > > i just don't know and i'm honestly scared to shit. i'm terrified.
> i
> > > don't know what to do.
> > >
> > <snip>
>
> > Rasputin ate arsenic cakes; he was immune.
> > He had taken little bits of arsenic often for years.
> >
>
> i'd rather just eat this whole fucking bottle of Ziagen here. i guess
> i'd have a couple of minutes before i shit my brains out for the last
> time.
>
> i have balance. i spend half my time praying for death, the other
half
> figuring out how to live, and having to fight to do it.
>
> it's a sine-wave reality that has me bouncing all over the place. i
> fear dementia, wonder if it's what i'm seeing and touching and
> forgetting. hard for that not to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
>
> like i said, i'm just fucking terrified. i spend so much time just
> scared shitless anymore.
> --
> www.mp3.com/durtro

http://www.michaiel.com/

Nick Bennett

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, durtro wrote:

> we're all human, capable of making mistakes. people just so
> desperately want to get a handle on this HIV/AIDS, there is an urgency
> that can't be denied. it's that urgency and sense of responsibility
> that results in the tension.


That, and (probably more so) the fact that many here get sick and tired of
trying to explain the facts to people over and over and over.....

people just want to believe they have
> some control on this HIV/AIDS dilemma.
>

> how can science, by it's very nature claim to "definitively" resolve
> the causal nature of HIV in AIDS with so many unanswered questions?
>

Any field, if you're deep enough into it, has many unanswered
questions. AIDS is no different, and none of the unanswered questions
really have much of an impact on whether or not HIV causes AIDS, or how it
should be managed.

> and no one can tell me that this science, which should be driven by
> desire for knowledge and natural curiousity, isn't currently driven by
> self-interest and greed. there's too much money flying around-too much
> at stake for the powers that be.
>

My research is driven by a simple quest for knowledge - how does HIV-1
package its RNA differently to HIV-2? Most of the science is driven along
similar lines, although the highest profile stuff will (naturally) be the
pharm-driven discoveries and achievements of new drugs, vaccine
developments etc.

> the critical eye must be turned toward this dilemma. confrontation
> shouldn't deny truth-only encourage it.
>

In an ideal world, that would be true :o) From time to time people do
turn up little gems of argument and fact that we can all learn from, but
most of the time it's simple misundertandings, misinterpretations and
misrepresentations, IME.

Bennett


ksta...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <8n05kf$vau$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8muf43$luk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

> ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8mu8et$gcp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > In article <8mu7j9$fr3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > In article <8mu72r$fe0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > > durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > > > In article <8mu5p0$eg6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

> > > > > ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > > > In article <8mu4q5$dpr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > > > > > durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > i notice that ddI is the only [pharmo] antiviral that you
> > > > mentioned.
> > > > > > > i'm used to seeing 3. do you take any other approved
> > > antivirals?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Agenerase - six 150mg capsule bid (360/mo)
> > > > > > Ziagen - one 300mg tablets bid (60/mo)
> > > > > > Norvir - two 100mg capsules bid (120/mo)
> > > > > > VIDEX - two 200mg tablets qd (60/mo)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > you seem to be tolerating them very well, by your "art"
photos!
> > ;-)
> > > > > all those drugs, as far as i know, make me extremely ill in a
> > short
> > > > > period of time
> > > >
> > > > Yeah that happened to me too. Agenerase was like a punch in the
> > > stomach
> > > > and Ziagen gave me rash so bad the welts all merged into one big
> > ugly.
> > > > But I'm a side-effect denialist and I just did the things that
> made
> > it
> > > > all go away.
> > > >
> > >
> > > tell me, how i can do that. there isn't enough dope in the world
to
> > > medicate those sides, from what i could see. and by dope i mean
the
> > Rx
> > > dope, the oxycodone, the clonopin. was i just some ludicrous
pussy?
> > > i'd hate to think so. i'd like to think i gave it my best shot.
> > >
> > > i just don't know and i'm honestly scared to shit. i'm terrified.
> i
> > > don't know what to do.
> > >
> >
> > Someone told me that only I could be my savior from this disease,
> that I
> > had to be responsible for my wellness. It's a process, I'm always
> > evaluating what I do, asking myself "is this the best thing I can do
> for
> > my health?" I seek out people who have succeeded and try to find
out
> > what it is that helped them. It's like Underworld's "m.e." from
> > dubnobasswithmyheadman says "I don't want a good time. I wanted to
> > live. etc."
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> i just feel more doomed than in the recent past, before the awakening
> of the PN, when i was safe in the arms of reasonably-tolerated
> antiretrovirals.
>
> and also need to take better care of myself, in many ways. lifestyle
> disease. i'll pull it all off, in a nick of time. story of my life,
> just in time. maybe i stopped anti-retrovirals just in time, to save
> my own life-i don't know. that' s what i'm here to try to find out, i
> need information. i need all the fucking information my brain can
> stand.
>
> oh yeah, feeling like a deadman i confessed, i have HepC too. does
> that make me extraspeciallysick, or perhaps explain my intolerance to
> the antiretrovirals? i can only wonder...
>
> durtrodeadman
> --
> www.mp3.com/durtro

http://michaiel.com/Healart.html

durtro

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <8n0ruh$f27$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8n04tc$uu3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
<snip>

> > like i said, i'm just fucking terrified. i spend so much time just


> > scared shitless anymore.
> > --
> > www.mp3.com/durtro
>
> http://www.michaiel.com/
>

aum mani padme hum
watch the breath go in the nose
release slowly, through the mouth
aum mani padme hum
aum mani padme hum

kinda hard to do in the middle of fentanyl withdrawl,
but...

aum mani padme hum

my face is leaking snot and tears like some perverse fountain
narcotic withdrawl is just so much fun.
i'd do some perverse things for an oxycodone, right now.
but i have to get off of this shit, too.
can't take these narcotics everyday, anymore

aum mani padme hum

besides, they stop working

aum mani padme hum

i still have the PN, but, hey, it isn't as bad! it's getting better!
maybe the B12 shots are helping! or, maybe it's because i doubled my
dose of neurontin without telling my doctor! yaay for self-medication!

aum mani padme hum
aum mani padme hum

--
www.mp3.com/durtro

durtro

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <8n0sg2$f89$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8n05kf$vau$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
><snip>
> >

> > oh yeah, feeling like a deadman i confessed, i have HepC too. does
> > that make me extraspeciallysick, or perhaps explain my intolerance
to
> > the antiretrovirals? i can only wonder...
> >
> > durtrodeadman
> > --
> > www.mp3.com/durtro
>
> http://michaiel.com/Healart.html
>

i am all fucked up on Western Medicine right now. my chi is all out of
whack. a year on antiretrovirals diminished my spine. i don't know if
i can love God. i should be able to, i have lots to be grateful for, i
suppose.

maybe i should just start with the little things.

z@z

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
Hi Durtro!

| > Rasputin ate arsenic cakes; he was immune.
| > He had taken little bits of arsenic often for years.
|
| i'd rather just eat this whole fucking bottle of Ziagen here. i guess
| i'd have a couple of minutes before i shit my brains out for the last
| time.
|
| i have balance. i spend half my time praying for death, the other half
| figuring out how to live, and having to fight to do it.
|
| it's a sine-wave reality that has me bouncing all over the place. i
| fear dementia, wonder if it's what i'm seeing and touching and
| forgetting. hard for that not to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
|

| like i said, i'm just fucking terrified. i spend so much time just
| scared shitless anymore.

Durto, everybody must die. The death is quite normal. Billions of
persons have already died, therefore there is no reason to be
afraid of death.

Have you already heard about "structured treatment interruption".
The problem with AIDS drugs is that they have severe side effects
and that they are prescribed until death. Therefore the many tissues,
organs, cells, molecules which are negatively affected by them can
not regenerate in the same way as after e.g. a cancer chemotherapy.

The claim that what results in 10'000 RNA copies per milliliter
blood exhausts the immune system is logical nonsense, because to
10'000 RNA copies correpond only in the order of 0.1 viruses.

"No, in fact 100,000 copies by PCR probably equates to only a single
infectious virion." (Nick Bennett, 2000/07/28)

So in five liters blood there are only 500 viruses (virions). That's
a ridiculous quantity if we compare it with the number of blood cells
which are even thousands or millions times more voluminous than
viruses.

The numbers of some blood components for comparison (Lexikon der
Biochemie, Herder, 1991, -> Blut):

component: per ml blood
----------------------------------------------------
red blood cells 4'200'000'000 - 6'200'000'000
white blood cells 4'800'000 - 10'800'000
platelets 150'000'000 - 350'000'000

typical viral loads from < 500 to > 30'000
typical virion number from < 0.005 to > 0.3

Compare 0.005 virions with 5 billion red blood cells. There are
one trillion, i.e. 1'000'000'000'000 times more red blood cells
than viruses. If HIV really exhausted the immune system then
there would be much more viruses in the blood, even if HIV
replicates primarily in lymphatic tissues.

The objective of HAART (scientific exorcism) is to suppress viral
loads below 20 RNA copies per ml blood, i.e. to suppress the number
of free virions in the blood to around one single virus particle.

20 per RNA copies ml * 5 liter / 100'000 = 1 virion

One free virion among around forty billion (40'000'000'000)
white blood cells and twenty five trillion (25'000'000'000'000)
red blood cells.

The weight of this virion is around 10^-15 gram, i.e.
0.000'000'000'000'001 gram!

The assumption that the changes in CD4 cell counts during HAART
are a result of the reduction from e.g. 100 free blood virions
to 1 virion and not a result of hundreds of milligrams of toxic
substances killing lots of cells and microbes is obviously wrong.

Durtro, you write that you don't take medical drugs at the moment.
Even if you believe that HIV is an immunodeficiency virus, the
treatment interruption has obvioulsy also positive consequences,
because your body can regenerate. Try to live a healthy life, take
only the minumum of recreational drugs. A moderate consumption of
drugs (or poisons or carcinogenic substances or radioactivity)
can have positive effects. I for instance drink quite a lot of
alcohol (primarily beer).

That you feel well is much more important than viral load
figures. Also CD4 counts are not so important. There are people
with very low figures who are healthy and people with normal
figures who are sick.


Good luck, Wolfgang
http://members.lol.li/twostone/E/aids3a.html


Structured Treatment Interruption in Chronically HIV-1 Infected Patients
After Long Term Viral Suppression

Ruiz L, Martinez-Picardo J, Romeu J, et al
AIDS. 2000;14:397-403

Initial reports describing how, in some patients, antiretroviral
treatment interruptions did not result in predicted viral rebound or
T-cell loss were met with hopeful enthusiasm by the ever-increasing
number of persons living with HIV who are tiring of multidrug
antiretroviral cocktails and have become fearful of the accumulating
adverse effects of these therapies. Previous reports of structured
treatment interruptions (STI) have focused on a few persons who were
originally treated early in HIV infection. In this small study, the
impact of STI on HIV-1 RNA and immunologic parameters in 12 individuals
with viral load suppressed below 20 copies/mL for at least 2 years was
reported. Ten of the subjects had received at least 2 antiretroviral
regimens while the remainder were on their first antiretroviral regimen
at the time of temporary treatment cessation.

Treatment was interrupted for up to 30 days or until HIV RNA rebounded
above 3000 copies/mL, which ever occurred first, after which
antiretroviral therapy was resumed using the same regimen that had been
interrupted. Two individuals did not experience any viral rebound, and
maintained virologic suppression below 20 copies/mL during the treatment
hiatus. These 2 subjects did not have HIV-specific lymphocyte
proliferative responses prior to treatment interruption, and had high
viral load prior to commencing HAART. Therefore, they did not fit the
profile of long-term nonprogressors.

In the remaining 10 patients, viral rebound occurred in 2 patterns:
rebound above 20 copies/mL between 10 and 15 days after stopping HAART
(n = 5), or rebound above 20 copies/mL between 18 and 21 days after
stopping HAART (n = 5). The mean doubling time for HIV-1 RNA was 1.6
days. However, no significant difference in the slope of rebound was
reported between these 2 groups, nor was the CCR5 delta 32 genotype
associated with the speed of rebound.

At the time of treatment reintroduction, viral load had risen above
10,000 copies/mL in 6 of the 12 cases, but there was no relationship
between the magnitude of the viral load rebound and the baseline viral
load. After resuming treatment, all individuals achieved HIV-1 RNA
levels below 20 copies/mL. A 2-phase viral decay was observed following
treatment resumption with a half life of 1.37 days for the first phase
and 6.16 days for the second.

Resistance mutations were only found in 1 subject who, previous to his
current regimen of d4T, 3TC, and indinavir, received ZDV monotherapy.
This patient had several ZDV mutations detected at rebound as well as a
215 mutation in virus isolated from PBMCs at baseline.

CD4+ and CD8+ cell counts at time of reinstitution of treatment were not
significantly different from baseline. Likewise, there were no changes
in the proportion of cells that were of naive or memory subsets. Only 2
individuals developed T-helper cell responses to HIV p24 antigen, 1 at
the peak of viremia (> 5 log10 copies/mL) and the other after therapy
was resumed. In both cases the response was maintained or improved
during subsequent HAART. Four individuals displayed improved
proliferative responses to tuberculin and 2 to tetanus toxoid during the
treatment interruption, while 3 additional patients developed improved
tetanus and tuberculin responses after resuming HAART and achieving
viral load below 20 copies/mL once again.

This small study demonstrates that HAART can be temporarily stopped
without significant depletion of CD4 cell counts in patients with
chronic HIV infection. Furthermore, viral rebound -- which occurred
quickly in all but 2 patients during the short period off therapy -- can
be controlled with reinstitution of HAART. The 2 patients who continued
to have viral suppression during the short period off HAART did not have
any identified immunologic or other features to distinguish them from
the remainder of the cohort. Improved HIV-specific immune responses, a
goal of STI, were seen in the subject with the most profound viral
rebound. Whether cycles of STI can augment HIV-specific immunity and
whether such immunity can partially or fully control viral replication
are questions that remain for larger controlled studies to answer. The
greatest benefit of this approach may be limiting overall HAART
exposure. However, this strategy may realistically be difficult to
implement and questions about resistance development with cycles of
interruptions persist.

durtro

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <8n13jd$fc1$1...@pollux.ip-plus.net>,

"z@z" <z...@z.lol.li> wrote:
> Hi Durtro!
>
> | > Rasputin ate arsenic cakes; he was immune.
> | > He had taken little bits of arsenic often for years.
> |
> | i'd rather just eat this whole fucking bottle of Ziagen here. i
guess
> | i'd have a couple of minutes before i shit my brains out for the
last
> | time.
> |
> | i have balance. i spend half my time praying for death, the other
half
> | figuring out how to live, and having to fight to do it.
> |
> | it's a sine-wave reality that has me bouncing all over the place. i
> | fear dementia, wonder if it's what i'm seeing and touching and
> | forgetting. hard for that not to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
> |
> | like i said, i'm just fucking terrified. i spend so much time just
> | scared shitless anymore.
>
> Durto, everybody must die. The death is quite normal. Billions of
> persons have already died, therefore there is no reason to be
> afraid of death.

Wolfgang, i used to be fearless. these anti-retrovirals have removed
my spine, made me sick and weak. i want my backbone, back.


>
> Have you already heard about "structured treatment interruption".
> The problem with AIDS drugs is that they have severe side effects
> and that they are prescribed until death. Therefore the many tissues,
> organs, cells, molecules which are negatively affected by them can
> not regenerate in the same way as after e.g. a cancer chemotherapy.

some of these drugs were originally investigated for that purpose. they
probably still are...tearing apart the same poisons, twisting the
analogue and dropping it in peoples hands.

the technicality of the above is mathematically astounding to my brain.
but i get the gist...

>
> Durtro, you write that you don't take medical drugs at the moment.
> Even if you believe that HIV is an immunodeficiency virus, the
> treatment interruption has obvioulsy also positive consequences,
> because your body can regenerate.

no kidding! it already is. i was tempted to start a thread

"oh, the pain of my appetite coming back!"

man, i'm cleaning out the 'fridge. and i go to a quitting smoking
seminar, today. gonna work on the tobacco habit. i'm moving in a
positive direction.

this morning, well, after kicking the narcotics for the last 72
count'em 72 hours...i feel pretty good. optimistic. had a couple of
tiny seizures, though. they happened the last time i went off the anti-
virals, too. but, for the most part-optimistic.

Try to live a healthy life, take
> only the minumum of recreational drugs. A moderate consumption of
> drugs (or poisons or carcinogenic substances or radioactivity)
> can have positive effects. I for instance drink quite a lot of
> alcohol (primarily beer).

a little poison is a good thing, indeed. i'm a pothead, not a junkie.
i could be a junkie if i didn't have so much that i have to stay
connected to, but i don't like the separation from reality that
narcotics offer. it's too thorough, and i'm too dependent. the
peripheral neuropathy awakens at night, i'm gonna see what tonight
brings-i get my refills today, so there will be a safety-net.

i want to be clean, and free. and get in shape.

>
> That you feel well is much more important than viral load
> figures. Also CD4 counts are not so important. There are people
> with very low figures who are healthy and people with normal
> figures who are sick.
>

are there people with supposedly good CD4 counts getting sick? i want
to see something on that, i want to know more about that. i want to
know if there are people taking these chemicals who are sick and dying
in spite of elevated CD4 count. that's my question. i'd offer a
reward to anyone providing existence of these people, if i had the
scratch.

thank you, very much, Wolfgang.

i want to believe that, oh my god, i do. i just can't take them.
of course i want to believe that!

Nick Bennett

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to

On 11 Aug 2000, z@z wrote:

> Durto, everybody must die. The death is quite normal. Billions of
> persons have already died, therefore there is no reason to be
> afraid of death.


Sound philosophical advice. I hope I'm able to follow it myself one day
when my own mortality seems closer to hand. Then again, we're all
literally a heartbeat away from death...

> "No, in fact 100,000 copies by PCR probably equates to only a single
> infectious virion." (Nick Bennett, 2000/07/28)


Heheh - quoted - I'm flattered, but there's literature in pubmed that
would probably be better suited ;-)

Aside from the numbers game you go through <snipped> , which I don't
believe is a valid argument against HIV causing AIDS, your comments on STI
may be interesting. Durtro said he's been on and off various meds, and on
them with good compliance for weeks at a time. I can't help but wonder
about whether he has, in his own way, had a (un)structured treatment
interruption, with consequent immune priming against the virus... The
Berlin patient had his meds stopped for reasons other than experimental
ideas after all (I believe in his case it was due to needing to treat
concurrent OI's).

Just a thought.

Bennett


Nick Bennett

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to

On 11 Aug 2000, durtro wrote:

> are there people with supposedly good CD4 counts getting sick? i want
> to see something on that, i want to know more about that.

There have been a few reports that show that the immediate rise in CD4
counts to "safe" levels, above 200 per ul, may not mean that immune
function is properly restored. That may take a further few weeks. I
don't have any citations to hand, but I think I recall they were published
in the journal AIDS in the last year or so. You can think of it as though
the effects of the anti-HIV drugs at preventing opportunistic infections
don't kick in as fast as their effects on CD4 count.


i want to
> know if there are people taking these chemicals who are sick and dying
> in spite of elevated CD4 count. that's my question. i'd offer a
> reward to anyone providing existence of these people, if i had the
> scratch.

They do exist, but are relatively uncommon compared to those who are doing
well. It's associated with recent introduction of effective therapeutic
control (either new of replacement therapy) and is probably due to the
fact that CD4 counts, while being a good surrogate marker overall,
aren't strictly a true reflection of immune system function
_in_this_setting_.

Antiviral therapy reduces the risk of OI's, but I don't think it
eliminates risk entirely. HAART has no effect on the risk of HIV-related
lymphoma (the genetic damage may well be done years previously, and it
just takes time to show up). I recall some recent discussion here on
reduced risk of tumours with antivirals...but I dunno the specifics.

Cheers

Bennett


Occam's Razor

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to

On 10-Aug-2000, Chiro-Quack (David Canzi) "Canzi The Pansy" blurted:

> In article <Rswk5.456621$MB.69...@news6.giganews.com>,
> GOD <unoth...@heaven.com> wrote:

> >... like a preschool playground with all the
> >name calling. The aids establishment/drug pushers
>
> Congratulations. You just went from disapproving an act to committing
> that same act in record time.

> David Canzi |For every scientific revolutionary there are 100,000 cranks.|

Speaking of Science-phobic Pre-Skool dropouts...

Moron.

Occam


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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ksta...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <8n0sst$fkg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8n0ruh$f27$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> ksta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8n04tc$uu3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > durtro <dur...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>

> > > like i said, i'm just fucking terrified. i spend so much time
just
> > > scared shitless anymore.

durtro

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0008111711120.18971-
100...@orange.csi.cam.ac.uk>,

Nick Bennett <nj...@cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
> On 11 Aug 2000, durtro wrote:
>
> > are there people with supposedly good CD4 counts getting sick? i
want
> > to see something on that, i want to know more about that.
>
> There have been a few reports that show that the immediate rise in CD4
> counts to "safe" levels, above 200 per ul, may not mean that immune
> function is properly restored. That may take a further few weeks. I
> don't have any citations to hand, but I think I recall they were
published
> in the journal AIDS in the last year or so. You can think of it as
though
> the effects of the anti-HIV drugs at preventing opportunistic
infections
> don't kick in as fast as their effects on CD4 count.
>
> i want to
> > know if there are people taking these chemicals who are sick and
dying
> > in spite of elevated CD4 count. that's my question. i'd offer a
> > reward to anyone providing existence of these people, if i had the
> > scratch.
>
> They do exist, but are relatively uncommon compared to those who are
doing
> well. It's associated with recent introduction of effective
therapeutic
> control (either new of replacement therapy) and is probably due to the
> fact that CD4 counts, while being a good surrogate marker overall,
> aren't strictly a true reflection of immune system function
> _in_this_setting_.

this is where i get lost, Bennett. if CD4 count is only a surrogate
marker, what is the real action taking place?

>
> Antiviral therapy reduces the risk of OI's, but I don't think it
> eliminates risk entirely. HAART has no effect on t