My trip to Hammer Strength
Robert Spector
Interesting post Chuck! One thing though - I didn't say that I didn't
like the Hammer Squat; that was Matt Brzycki.
I use it quite frequently, as it's the best thing I have available. HOWEVER
I still say (yes, I am adamant on this one) that THE best squat/leg press
variant I have EVER used (and I must have used nearly everything on the
planet short of MedX and the Safety Squat) is the old Nautilus Duo Squat.
Sorry, I just think the strength curve is PERFECT. I have never gotten
better results on anything else than that machine.
The only problem I have with the Hammer machine is that it tends to strain
the lower back (I found at least), but I think I found that because I didn't
have the seat adjusted properly.
Plus, I don't like the strength curve. Too hard at the bottom, and easy at
the top. I do like the ROM as you did. I was told that you should first
load the plates on the OUTSIDE bars before the inside or it will feel too
heavy at the bottom.
Did I get this advice backwards?
Chuck Clark
Well, I decided to bite the bullet and buy myself a 3" barbell. Brooks
Kubik told me it's scary to lift one of these and I believe him. It
looks/feels like I'm lifting a sewer pipe. They take a 2.5" pipe (i.d)
and weld a longer 2" metal solid shaft inside of it. So, the 2" part
sticks out on either end to load the plates. Oh, I'm getting ahead of
myself. Well, I drove up to Falmouth, KY (pronounced falmuth) where
the factory is located to save myself a shipping cost. It's funny, I
drove 2 different ways to and fro the factory and each way was the
scenic route. If anyone decides to go there, it's behind the concrete
coating place. There is no sign and it's not easy to find. Anyway, I
was greeted by Cosmo who promptly took me through the factory to look
at the thick bars. They have a 2.5" (2" i.d.) and 3" sizes. Both are 7
ft long and cost $84.80 including tax. I chose the more imposing
looking of the 2 and we left for the front. They had to call
Cincinnati to get a sales receipt. While I was waiting, Gary Jones,
the head of production and the man behind Hammer Strength came around
the corner. He was dressed in a Hammer Strength T-shirt, shorts, and
flip-flops. Following shortly behind were his 2 dogs. We talked for a
few minutes and he told me business was doing good. Hammer has sold
more exercise machines last year than anyone else. I was suprised. I
guess most of the gyms in my area are cheap or suck (prob'ly both). As
we were talking, I remarked that I couldn't find any Hammer shirts
anywhere. Cosmo soon came around a corner with a free one for me. Gary
walked off and the sales slip still hadn't been faxed. So, Cosmo took
me on a tour of the factory. They have several machines that I assume
are used to let potential customers try them out. I got to try out a
H-Squat machine which Rob Spector reported he didn't like. Well, I
didn't get to use much weight but I was impressed with the depth I
could go without my butt rolling up like it does on angled leg
presses. I guess if I had 4 grand to burn..... We went into the break
room and there were machines there for the employees to work out on. I
thought that was pretty cool. We then took a complete tour of the
facility. I have to say they are very thorough. CNC machines, jigs,
plates for assuring bottoms of machines are square and flat. In fact,
after welding they assemble each machine, check for proper operation,
disassemble them, then paint them. After painting (powder coating
actually) and placing the pads on them, they check them again for
proper operation. They then disassemble them again and wrap them in
blankets. Pretty thorough, huh? We also got into a discussion on
m.f.w. They seemed pretty interested. Oh well, it was worth the trip
into the boonies. I'd of liked to had a flat-bed trailer and a free
shopping spree, though. 8^)
--
Chuck Clark SPT
cmcl...@homer.louisville.edu
University of Louisville, KY
by...@news.epix.net
Robert Spector (ro...@zot.io.org) wrote:
: Plus, I don't like the strength curve. Too hard at the bottom, and easy at
: the top. I do like the ROM as you did. I was told that you should first
: load the plates on the OUTSIDE bars before the inside or it will feel too
: heavy at the bottom.
I like the hammer squat. I find it works best for me with heels all the
way at the bottom of the foot plate. You do have to be careful to keep
your butt down on the pad though, with heavy weights.
I am quite sure that it doesn't matter where you load the plates, except
that they will feel uniformly heavier throughout the range of motion if
you put them on the inside bars, as the lever arm is longer there. By
the way, can you even get 45's on the inside bars? Didn't look to me
like there was enough clearance there.
byron
Dr Squat
Surely, you guys are jesting, no?
Fred Hatfield, Ph.D., MSS, "Dr. Squat"
International Sports Sciences Association
Certification for Strength Coaches and Personal Fitness Trainers
http://www.tgx.com/cpu/frehome.htm
800-650-ISSA and 800-892-ISSA
Robert Spector
In article <4pq6ta$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,No.
Can you be more "specific" or is that, "similar"?
Dr. Spectorals
MDGADPC
>I still say (yes, I am adamant on this one) that THE best squat/leg press
>variant I have EVER used (and I must have used nearly everything on the
>planet short of MedX and the Safety Squat) is the old Nautilus Duo Squat.
I do not find the duo squat the best thing ever. It is very hard on the
lower back.
Futhermore, when one use the whole stack, it is hard to hang on on the
machine and it is tough on the shoulder.
Robert Spector
Hmmmm....I made a mistake by saying the "old" Nautilus Duo Squat. I know
what you mean about the stress on the lower back and shoulders with the OLD
one. I use the one where you are sitting rather than lying down. I don't
have the stress because of the shoulder pads forcing you down.
Now, I thought this was called the Nautilus Duo Leg Press, but I've been
told by two strength coaches its the "newer" version of the Duo Squat.
Whatever. I just used it tonight (experimented with a new gym that had it),
and I still stick by my guns.
'Course I'm NOT saying it is "the best exercise bar none". No...I say that
for ME it has turned out to be.
Every one has their own nuances and favourite exercises. Like Bro' Bill, Ronbo
and myself all agree that the Hammer Iso-Incline Press is a kick ass machine -
one of the best. But I'm sure someone else doesn't like it.
Whatever, chacun son gout as they say in Quebec.
R.
Garry Holmen
Robert Spector (ro...@zap.io.org) wrote:
:
: Every one has their own nuances and favourite exercises. Like Bro' Bill, Ronbo
: and myself all agree that the Hammer Iso-Incline Press is a kick ass machine -
: one of the best. But I'm sure someone else doesn't like it.
What that piece of crap! 8^)
Actually, I don't like that machine because it doesn't fit me well (long
arms) and because of this it causes unneeded internal rotation for me which
is a no no for my bad rotator cuffs.
Now if you're talking about the Hammer Iso-lat row machine then we can
agree. 8^) I also think Cybex makes some good leg extension and curl
machines (they just need heavier weights on those stacks. 8^) )
Garry
Robert Spector
In article <4pv13h$8...@mailer.mda.ca>, Garry Holmen <ga...@mda.ca> wrote:
>Robert Spector (ro...@zap.io.org) wrote:
>:
>: Every one has their own nuances and favourite exercises. Like Bro' Bill, Ronbo
>: and myself all agree that the Hammer Iso-Incline Press is a kick ass machine -
>: one of the best. But I'm sure someone else doesn't like it.
And.....
>What that piece of crap! 8^)
Well, actually I wasn't expecting you to be the one to say that Gary <guess who
I was expecting?>
>Actually, I don't like that machine because it doesn't fit me well (long
>arms)
<Helpful mode on>
Well, I have long arms (relatively speaking - I'm just under 6'0")....maybe
you haven't set the seat properly? I found that THAT is the key to the whole
movement. The handles should be at the top of your shoulders which for me
means the seat is almost all the way down (second to last peg).
> and because of this it causes unneeded internal rotation for me which
>is a no no for my bad rotator cuffs.
I have a bad pec, and this is one of the few pressing movements (for chest)
that doesn't cause me pain. I also like how it forces you to move your arms
inwards at the top to force more pec involvement.
>Now if you're talking about the Hammer Iso-lat row machine then we can
>agree. 8^)
Yeah, I like it.
> I also think Cybex makes some good leg extension and curl
>machines (they just need heavier weights on those stacks. 8^) )
What a coincidence - I just used Cybex equipment last night. I used the
leg extension, which I found very smooth. Better than the old Nautilus
machine. And it doesn't overstretch the knee joint (which I find in other
machines).
They need heavier weights???? For the leg extension? I've used over 300lbs
on the Nautilus machine, and I've used 225lbs in Super Slow on the machine, but
the Cybex stack seems pretty heavy. Must be put at a poor leverage advantage.
The WORST one in terms of you are forced to use a whole lot less weight,
is the hammer leg extension. Tell me you can use NEARLY what you can use
on a selectorized machine.
Then again, I don't perform leg extensions or leg curls much anymore, as I'm
following a more "Hardgainer" (minus the "intensity cycling") routine these
days.
From other discussions I've had with various people (Dave M, Ronbo, Bryz, BB)
you should NOT go too heavy on leg extensions.
Just a tidbit of hopefully helpful info (since I am so helpful).
Now I have to go pickup my copy of the July issue of...no not MM2000...GQ magazine
and see if the rumour of Bro Bill's page being mentioned is true....
Ciao!
Chuck Clark
drs...@aol.com (Dr Squat) wrote:
>Surely, you guys are jesting, no?
Jesting about what? Who are you replying to?
Garry Holmen
Robert Spector (ro...@zap.io.org) wrote:
:
: I have a bad pec, and this is one of the few pressing movements (for chest)
: that doesn't cause me pain. I also like how it forces you to move your arms
: inwards at the top to force more pec involvement.
That is part of the movement I don't like. For me it just aggravates my
shoulders. Darcy can do them fine and doesn't have a problem even though
his shoulders are far worse then mine. It's probably a combination of
many things... oh well. I'll just stick to weighted dips and bench press
for now. 8^)
: They need heavier weights???? For the leg extension? I've used over 300lbs
: on the Nautilus machine, and I've used 225lbs in Super Slow on the machine, but
: the Cybex stack seems pretty heavy. Must be put at a poor leverage advantage.
Just my opinion... for instance I'm already using pretty much the entire
Cybex stack for my leg curls. Where do I go from there? I can start hanging
25's off the back but somehow I think the gym owner is going to freak when
he sees me doing this to his relatively new machines. 8^)
: Then again, I don't perform leg extensions or leg curls much anymore, as I'm
: following a more "Hardgainer" (minus the "intensity cycling") routine these
: days.
Intensity cycling... Rob you're sounding like a Russian squatting dynamo
more and more every day. What's next? Are you adding plyos into your
routine too? 8^)
: Now I have to go pickup my copy of the July issue of...no not MM2000...GQ magazine
: and see if the rumour of Bro Bill's page being mentioned is true....
Bill actually has a cyberspace article psoted in last month's PLUSA too.
Garry
Darcy Semeniuk
Robert Spector (ro...@zap.io.org) wrote:
: Every one has their own nuances and favourite exercises. Like Bro' Bill,
: Ronbo
: and myself all agree that the Hammer Iso-Incline Press is a kick ass machine
Is that the one where you're seated upright? If so, count
me in as one of the people who doesn't likeit c- hurts my
shoulders, and just plain feels uncomfortable.
Darcy
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Drive Topless!! Darcy S
Arnie and Ferrous say "WOOF" d...@vcn.bc.ca
barry j. sullivan
I use the Bench and the incline Hammer Strength and have had great
success. 2 THUMBS UP!!
(I like it because you can cheat a little with one arm when using a real
heavy weight, and sort of push it up slowly using both arms but not at
the same time...you can't cheat on the normal bench, you either do it or
you don't.)
Added plus** No spotter needed!!
MDGADPC
>Just my opinion... for instance I'm already using pretty much the entire
>Cybex stack for my leg curls. Where do I go from there? I can start
hanging
>25's off the back but somehow I think the gym owner is going to freak
when
>he sees me doing this to his relatively new machines. 8^)
I am sorry to see it looks like a worlswide attitude of gym owners.
Are we responsible of their bad decisions in chosing the wrong kind of
equipment?
Instead of adding weights I do my leg workout with one leg at a time.
Garry Holmen
MDGADPC (mdg...@aol.com) wrote:
:
: I am sorry to see it looks like a worlswide attitude of gym owners.
: Are we responsible of their bad decisions in chosing the wrong kind of
: equipment?
: Instead of adding weights I do my leg workout with one leg at a time.
The funniest is when the gym 'trainers' give me grief over adding weight
to the cable stack when I'm doing weighted crunches. They tell me that
the cable will snap under that much weight.... hmmm it's the same cable
as the one on the pulldown machine that goes up to 280 lbs... if I have to
worry about the cable snapping at ~120 lbs I should be pretty worried
on the cable pull down machine... 8^)
I'm close to the point where I want to use one leg but I like the extra
support that the other leg gives when I push myself to failure. At least
I'm glad I do my squats before I do leg extensions and leg curls otherwise
I'ld have to figure out some balancing act to add weight.
Garry
Kelly McMillan
Let me tell you from an owners point of view why I don't like to see
weight added to the stacks. Ask yourself how it is that you add the
weight. If you are like everyone else that I have ever seen, you stick
another pin in the stack and hang the weight on the pin. You may not
realize it but it does bend the pins. Ya I know. They must cost all of
about $6.00 you say. True, but I have 36 pins of three different makes
and lengths in my gym. When one gets bent someone comes along and kicks
it to get into the stack and then it gets stuck. Or they grab a pin out
of a different machine, no matter whether it is long enough or not. Sure
enough the first time the guy bangs the bottom when doing the stack on
the seated cable row the pins pops out. From an owners stand point it is
not funny to see a three hundred pound guy doing a back flip off your
seated cable row bench. (It really happened). The list of things that
happen with bent pins goes on, suffice it to say if there is any
alternative to adding weight to a stack I suggest you use it. Big Mac
MDGADPC
>I'm close to the point where I want to use one leg but I like the extra
>support that the other leg gives when I push myself to failure. At least
>I'm glad I do my squats before I do leg extensions and leg curls
otherwise
>I'ld have to figure out some balancing act to add weight.
Doing extension one leg at a time is much better than the normal version.
You have to get used to it and after that you will never want to use 2
legs.
Also, if you use the whole stack with a single leg, the owner will not
talk to you the same way.
I also do the leg press one leg at a time (but I do not have the choice)..
The only trouble is it takes much longer to perform a workout.
But I really like to do all the workout of one leg before working the
other.
the tree by the river
In article <31C857...@mcmfamily.com> Kelly McMillan <ke...@mcmfamily.com> writes:
[adding weights to selectorized equipment]
>Let me tell you from an owners point of view why I don't like to see
>weight added to the stacks. Ask yourself how it is that you add the
>weight. If you are like everyone else that I have ever seen, you stick
>another pin in the stack and hang the weight on the pin. You may not
>realize it but it does bend the pins. Ya I know. They must cost all of
>about $6.00 you say. True, but I have 36 pins of three different makes
>and lengths in my gym. When one gets bent someone comes along and kicks
>it to get into the stack and then it gets stuck. Or they grab a pin out
As a general rule, "selectorized" and "not enough weight" just go
together; I've ordered stuff with an extra-large weight stack before,
but in many cases the physical limit of how big a stack you can fit
on there gets in the way. On a couple of machines I've got (notably
the military press and the donkey calf machine) I had a pair of 2"
posts welded to the frame in-line with the stack (these are inclined
at about 30 degrees from the horizontal and have larger "collars"
welded on at the bottom to prevent the plates from rubbing on the
machine itself). The net result is that you can just pile on however
many 45's you want and then use the 200-or-so pound weight stack to
make finer adjustments in between sets; personally, I think it's very
convenient, especially when you want to do some quick weight changes
with minimal rest between sets.
--
Trygve Lode | 6529 Lakeside Circle, Littleton CO 80125 | (303) 470-1011
Want a copy of the soc.singles FAQ? Send mail to tl...@nyx10.cs.du.edu
"Always remember: day follows day, but night precedes night, and your
hands are just microscopes for pencils to look through." -- Bill Knott
Garry Holmen
Kelly McMillan (ke...@mcmfamily.com) wrote:
:
: Let me tell you from an owners point of view why I don't like to see
: weight.
I typically get an S hook and put one end through the circular attachment
that the cable attaches by and hang a weight off the other end of the
S hook.
On the cable rack where I like to do my weighted ab crunches I'll pick
up a dumbell or two and place it on top of the weight stack between
the bars.
: If you are like everyone else that I have ever seen, you stick
: another pin in the stack and hang the weight on the pin.
Ummm... I don't do that... it's too hard to balance the weight just
right and those pins tend to fall out on their own.
: seated cable row bench. (It really happened). The list of things that
: happen with bent pins goes on, suffice it to say if there is any
: alternative to adding weight to a stack I suggest you use it.
Point taken... not a problem with me.
I also hate it when trainers come and bother me about lifting chalk or
deadlifting.... grrr.... 8^)
Garry
Kelly McMillan
I always knew you were more creative than most Garry. No problem here.
Big Mac
Kelly McMillan
the tree by the river wrote:
>
> In article <31C857...@mcmfamily.com> Kelly McMillan <ke...@mcmfamily.com> writes:
> [adding weights to selectorized equipment]
> >
> >weight added to the stacks. Ask yourself how it is that you add the
> >another pin in the stack and hang the weight on the pin. You may not
> >realize it but it does bend the pins. Ya I know. They must cost all of
> >about $6.00 you say. True, but I have 36 pins of three different makes
> >and lengths in my gym. When one gets bent someone comes along and kicks
> >it to get into the stack and then it gets stuck. Or they grab a pin out
> >of a different machine, no matter whether it is long enough or not. [...]
>
> As a general rule, "selectorized" and "not enough weight" just go
> together; I've ordered stuff with an extra-large weight stack before,
> but in many cases the physical limit of how big a stack you can fit
> on there gets in the way. On a couple of machines I've got (notably
> the military press and the donkey calf machine) I had a pair of 2"
> posts welded to the frame in-line with the stack (these are inclined
> at about 30 degrees from the horizontal and have larger "collars"
> welded on at the bottom to prevent the plates from rubbing on the
> machine itself). The net result is that you can just pile on however
> many 45's you want and then use the 200-or-so pound weight stack to
> make finer adjustments in between sets; personally, I think it's very
> convenient, especially when you want to do some quick weight changes
> with minimal rest between sets.
> --
> Trygve Lode | 6529 Lakeside Circle, Littleton CO 80125 | (303) 470-1011
> Want a copy of the soc.singles FAQ? Send mail to tl...@nyx10.cs.du.edu
> "Always remember: day follows day, but night precedes night, and your
> hands are just microscopes for pencils to look through." -- Bill Knott
I'm in the process of have some adapters made that will fit on the
handles of my Icarian Military, Bench, and Incline, that will allow you
to put plates on the arms, just outside of where you put your hands. It
has a totally different feel with the weights on the handles as opposed
to the stack. Big Mac
the tree by the river
In article <31C9C5...@mcmfamily.com> Kelly McMillan <ke...@mcmfamily.com> writes:
>the tree by the river wrote:
>>
>> As a general rule, "selectorized" and "not enough weight" just go
>> together; I've ordered stuff with an extra-large weight stack before,
>> but in many cases the physical limit of how big a stack you can fit
>> on there gets in the way. On a couple of machines I've got (notably
>> the military press and the donkey calf machine) I had a pair of 2"
>> posts welded to the frame in-line with the stack (these are inclined
>> at about 30 degrees from the horizontal and have larger "collars"
>> welded on at the bottom to prevent the plates from rubbing on the
>> machine itself). The net result is that you can just pile on however
>> many 45's you want and then use the 200-or-so pound weight stack to
>> make finer adjustments in between sets; personally, I think it's very
>> convenient, especially when you want to do some quick weight changes
>> with minimal rest between sets.
>
>handles of my Icarian Military, Bench, and Incline, that will allow you
>to put plates on the arms, just outside of where you put your hands. It
>has a totally different feel with the weights on the handles as opposed
>to the stack. Big Mac
Probably has a lot to do with the design of the machine; if the
resistance is cam-mediated, there's probably not much of anything
you can do other than add the weight to the stack itself somehow.
The only factor I have to worry about with the equipment I have is
keeping the leverage the same for the stack and the added plates.
Dr Squat
In article <31C9C5...@mcmfamily.com> Kelly McMillan
><ke...@mcmfamily.com> writes:
>>the tree by the river wrote:
>>>
>>> As a general rule, "selectorized" and "not enough weight" just go
>>> together; I've ordered stuff with an extra-large weight stack before,
>>> but in many cases the physical limit of how big a stack you can fit
>
>Probably has a lot to do with the design of the machine; if the
>resistance is cam-mediated, there's probably not much of anything
>you can do other than add the weight to the stack itself somehow.
>The only factor I have to worry about with the equipment I have is
>keeping the leverage the same for the stack and the added plates.
I have always had a deep and abiding interest in the equipment industry.
My feeling is that guys like y'all are never listened to by the marketeers
and welders who sell equipment. Clearly, they're not ironheads or
schooled in biomechanics. There is indeed better equipment out there, but
it's just beginning to emerge... finally. And NO...it's NOT the line of
recycled Arthur Jones leverage machines his son is now marketing. Some if
his Hammer stuff...as it is with all equipment lines...has some "good" and
innovative qualities. But remember that there's good, better and BEST.
There's a better way.
Fred Hatfield, Ph.D., MSS, "Dr. Squat"
International Sports Sciences Association
Certification for Strength Coaches and Personal Fitness Trainers
http://www.tgx.com/cpu/fredhome.htm
800-650-ISSA and 800-892-ISSA
the tree by the river
In article <4qpo76$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> drs...@aol.com (Dr Squat) writes:
[incorrect attributions removed; actually I (tlode) wrote both of the first
two paragraphs. Dr. Squat, I'm delighted to have the opportunity to read
your contributions to this forum, but, one doc to another, whatever editor
you're using to respond sucks (*)]
>>>> As a general rule, "selectorized" and "not enough weight" just go
>>>> together; I've ordered stuff with an extra-large weight stack before,
>>>> but in many cases the physical limit of how big a stack you can fit
>>>> on there gets in the way.
>>
>>resistance is cam-mediated, there's probably not much of anything
>>you can do other than add the weight to the stack itself somehow.
>>The only factor I have to worry about with the equipment I have is
>>keeping the leverage the same for the stack and the added plates.
>
>I have always had a deep and abiding interest in the equipment industry.
>My feeling is that guys like y'all are never listened to by the marketeers
>and welders who sell equipment. Clearly, they're not ironheads or
Actually, I'm pretty happy with the equipment I buy and how I deal with
it is to patronize and recommend various small, local manufacturers,
generally weightlifters themselves who have set up welding shops to
make the stuff. The stuff I get seems heavier duty, better built, and
more along the lines that I want (I don't generally like the feel of
variable-resistance machines and the locally-built ones tend to rely
less on weird cam-based approaches); plus, if I say I want something
made a little taller or the seat angled a little differently, they do
it.
Right now I've got to figure out what alterations I want to make to
pec deck design--for reasons unknown, almost all the pec decks I've
tried out have this weird resistance curve where it feels like the
weight suddenly drops in half as your arms approach midline in the
movement--exactly what I don't want to happen with a pec deck, since
one of the whole points behind having one is to be able to really
squeeze at full contraction. As long as I'm screwing around with
design ideas, anybody else out there have any thoughts?
(*) OK, Reverend Doctor in my case, but that's close enough....
Robert Spector
In article <4qpo76$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Dr Squat <drs...@aol.com> wrote another thinly veiled attack:
> In article <31C9C5...@mcmfamily.com> Kelly McMillan
>><ke...@mcmfamily.com> writes:
>>>the tree by the river wrote:
>>>>
>>>> together; I've ordered stuff with an extra-large weight stack before,
>>>> but in many cases the physical limit of how big a stack you can fit
>>
>>Probably has a lot to do with the design of the machine; if the
>>resistance is cam-mediated, there's probably not much of anything
>>you can do other than add the weight to the stack itself somehow.
>>The only factor I have to worry about with the equipment I have is
>>keeping the leverage the same for the stack and the added plates.
>
>
>I have always had a deep and abiding interest in the equipment industry.
Fred, I seem to recall an article written by yourself circa 1986 in M&F
where you stated to the effect that machines were NOT an effective way to
build mass as compared to free weights. It's the one with the cartoon of
the guy using a Nautilus machine (a "pencilneck") and a huuuuuge
bodybuilder standing next to him, laughing, while doing dumbbell curls.
'Course my memory isn't the greatest, and you might not have been the
authro, but I'm sure you remember that one.
>My feeling is that guys like y'all are never listened to by the marketeers
>and welders who sell equipment. Clearly, they're not ironheads or
>schooled in biomechanics.
Gary Jones is clearly a genius when it comes to biomechanics. In fact,
his use of CAD in designing the Hammer line was mentioned in a COMPUTER
Journal that I have as he used I believe, one of the leading edge packages
(at the time) on an HP platform (as best as I can recall).
> There is indeed better equipment out there
Perhaps. I have never used anything better, however. BUT, at the same
time there are Hammer pieces I DON'T like, and I prefer other
manufacturer's machines (i.e., Cybex, Nautilus, etc.). And of course I
prefer free weights for a few exercises as well.
Hammer also has some machines that I think are not only useless but
dangerous. Like the "Jammer" piece of crap. Supposed to "simulate" the
movements of a football lineman.
Cha, right. The one thing I liked better about Nautilus when Art was in
charge was that he didn't design a machine for something that wasn't
necessary. Hammer makes a machine for EVERYTHING - I don't think that's
necessary - but it's good marketing.
For e.g., Art NEVER made a calf machine, because he stated that the
one-legged calf raise (that counts as free weights - funny coming from
someone who is supposed to be "biased" towards machines and just out to
"scam" a buck) is the "perfect" exercise. He couldn't improve on it, so
why make one? Same with the wrist curl.
> but
>it's just beginning to emerge... finally.
Where? You must be referring to the MedX line, correct? After all, we
know how much research was put into those by...
> And NO...it's NOT the line of
>recycled Arthur Jones leverage machines his son is now marketing.
As I said before the only NEW things I see in this field is better
equipment. Stuff for special purposes, rehab, etc. And the one thing
Hammer popularized was iso-lateral work.
> Some if
>his Hammer stuff...as it is with all equipment lines...has some "good" and
>innovative qualities. But remember that there's good, better and BEST.
>
>There's a better way.
>
Which is....? I'm sure you must be thinking of MedX, right? I've never
used it so I have no opinion.
Ciao,
Rob
by...@news.epix.net
: Right now I've got to figure out what alterations I want to make to
: tried out have this weird resistance curve where it feels like the
: weight suddenly drops in half as your arms approach midline in the
: movement--exactly what I don't want to happen with a pec deck, since
: one of the whole points behind having one is to be able to really
: squeeze at full contraction. As long as I'm screwing around with
: design ideas, anybody else out there have any thoughts?
I like the machines that closely simulate dumbell flys much better than
the usual pec deck. They feel better, the position of the shoulder is
more natural, and you can use them for rear delts too. They would
probably be easy to knock off, because the cam looks more or less circular.
byron
Garry Holmen
:
: I think Rob Schuh should endorse an equipment line....what would it be
: called? <what a setup that was>
Well that would be the Butt Muncher (tm)...... woops couldn't resist.
: > I make jack!
:
: Methinks you need an agent.
Bond.... James Bond.... are you taking up a collection to rub Fred out now
Robert? Is that part of the HIT agenda.... oh oh... let that one out of the
bag. Now you'll have to kill me...
: Thanks, same to ya. I had a great workout today which took a total of less than
: 30 minutes and consisted of six sets, and was a combination of Hammer, Nautilus,
: Cybex and free weights.
30 minutes.... I guess that leaves you plenty of time to have a Chromium
Carb Up Mix Blaster after those intense workouts. 8^) I can imagine how
draining they are... and with that I've started another HIT war. 8^)
Garry
Garry Holmen
:
: Touche...but hey! The ab roller folks have sold over a MILLION units so
: far! There are that many stupid plebians out there, I guess? I'll
: gurarantee that you'd like the thing, despite the cost (80 bucks). I make
: jack! Only a one-time endorsement fee...which makes me far less of a
: marketing genius than the Jones, to be sure!
8^)... Just thought I'ld poke a little fun at you Fred.
I have no problems with people making money off of others... it's the
American way. (Can I say that as a Canadian? 8^) )
The main reason why machines are used is the same reason why people go
out and buy the ab thingee... better form, quick and efficient workouts,
the love of chrome pipe and bad experiences being squashed in the squat
rack. 8^)
(Personally, I hear that Mr Spector prefers the pink coloured equipment.
It makes him feel closer to his idol: The gawd of purpleness. 8^) )
Anyways... just trying to inject some irony into this debate for a change.
Garry
Dr Squat
Y'know, I'd LOVE to engage you in reasonable, intelligent discussion, but
two things (guess whatt they are) always prevent me from doing so!
Your responses to my posts (you ALWAYS respond sarcastically to EVERYTHING
I say) are usually unreasonable. Plus, the way you format things
...breaking in to inject sarcasm ... is not conducive to responding to
without making the post so long that ....ahhhh....
Hey! I do have one comment. "Opinion" may be defined in scientific terms
as an hypothesis or (if you're REALLY organized) a theory based upon best
available evidence. Something along those lines. So, when your info on
the Beirut situation came from the local bar girl instead of Kissinger,
well, that's NOT best available evidence.
Ooogiewawa.
MDGADPC
>is all over the place! Damned! I was already tired of that word before
>getting there!
Is that all the answers you have got from the pharmacists when you
attemped to buy some Italian goodies? (That is just a bad joke but I could
not resist. Sorry about it).
Robert Spector
>
> Dr Squat (drs...@aol.com) wrote:
<you've already read it, so why repost?>
>
> 8^)... Just thought I'ld poke a little fun at you Fred.
Not nice Gary...Fred seems to take things personally. Look how
upset he gets at me...and for what? Like I'm the bad guy.
Sheesh, he sounds like my ex-girlfriend(s). Me me me...I'm the
bad one. And just because I'm an evil HITer <sigh>
> I have no problems with people making money off of others... it's the
> American way. (Can I say that as a Canadian? 8^) )
Yup, hey who am I to argue with you on that one, right? Ya gotta
love being a Canuck.
> The main reason why machines are used is the same reason why people go
> out and buy the ab thingee... better form, quick and efficient workouts,
> the love of chrome pipe and bad experiences being squashed in the squat
> rack. 8^)
Uh, I don't know about that analogy. I wouldn't put the REAL machines
in the gym in the same category as the ab thingee. For me - with my old
war wounds and all <hey, wanna see my Desert Storm medals? What a
pickup line, ha!> SOME machines are just absolutely necessary.
> (Personally, I hear that Mr Spector prefers the pink coloured equipment.
> It makes him feel closer to his idol: The gawd of purpleness. 8^) )
That's, TPO to you, bud! We don't have pink coloured equipment here,
cuz we ain't no commie pinkos like some of you guys in B.C.!
And yes, Ken Leistner is one of the gods of strength training. He
is...well, the HIT Jedi Master of Masters. Even the "anti-HIT" people
don't say anything bad about him, ya notice that?
> Anyways... just trying to inject some irony into this debate for a ^^^^
> change.
What you trying to be a punny guy now? BTW, just what exactly are we
debating? I forget...that damn chromium deficiency again.
Train short, hard, and prosper.
Rob
Robert Spector
>
> Hey Rob!
Hi Fred. Is this going to be another one of those posts where I'm the unreasonable, sarcastic guy
again?
Did I not say in a past post:
I wrote:
> No one said you weren't entitled to your opinion.
> No one said that you aren't an accomplished powerlifter.
> No one said that you didn't have decades of experience in the iron >game.
See?
> Y'know, I'd LOVE to engage you in reasonable, intelligent discussion, but
> two things (guess whatt they are) always prevent me from doing so!
Let me guess:
1. I'm unreasonable
2. I'm sarcastic
3. I perform my lifts too slowly, thus causing my muscles to "learn slowness"
> Your responses to my posts (you ALWAYS respond sarcastically to EVERYTHING
> I say)
No, I don't ALWAYS respond sarcastically to EVERYTHING you say. Sheesh, you want
another e.g.? Okay, here we go:
I wrote:
> I agree. See, you think I always disagree with you. Not the case. Par example,
> I completely agree with you Fred, on the topic of "shaping" a biceps muscle.
>
> And the quote "just lift the bar" I agree with wholeheartedly.
>
> See? I'm not bad, mean, undesirable...wait I better stop there.
> are usually unreasonable. Plus, the way you format things
> ...breaking in to inject sarcasm ... is not conducive to responding to
> without making the post so long that ....ahhhh....
Oh, not again with me being the wordy bastard. Hey, I'm not unreasonable, just
ask Garry.
Okay, I admit I'm sarcastic sometimes. So? I gotta be me. Sorry.
> Hey! I do have one comment. "Opinion" may be defined in scientific terms
> as an hypothesis or (if you're REALLY organized) a theory based upon best
> available evidence. Something along those lines.
Well, that's your opinion on the definition of "opinion".
> So, when your info on
> the Beirut situation came from the local bar girl instead of Kissinger,
> well, that's NOT best available evidence.
Why would I ask Kissinger? What does he have to do with BEIRUT???? This isn't
'Nam we're talking about, here. If the local bar "girl" (which is politically
incorrect, BTW) is Lebanese like one of my friends (and who said a Jew and an
Arab can't be friends?) I'd pick her. She'd also probably be much better looking than
Kissinger...and I wouldn't have to talk to someone who freaks out when you imply
anything bad about Nixon!
But that's another newsgroup...
> Ooogiewawa.
Au revoir,
Rob
Dr Squat
in your protestation? No?
Someday we'll have a beer (or several) together. Maybe we'll invite Jedi
Leistner. Gawd!
Robert Spector
No I'm not. I guess I can give partial credit (I know this is gonna go to his
already inflated ego) for my writing style on m.f.w. to Ronbo
> But did I detect SOME sarcasm
>in your protestation? No?
I dunno....I guess so. Can't remember, to tell the truth.
>Someday we'll have a beer (or several) together.
Only if you're buying. Hey, you must make more $$$ than I do. And that
better be CANADIAN beer. No wimpy pencilneck geek American beer.
> Maybe we'll invite Jedi
>Leistner. Gawd!
Now wouldn't people want to be a fly on the wall for that one? Hey,
what about a training session at Leistner's Iron Island Gym, than some
brewskis? I'm sure Dr. Leistner would be happy to accomodate.
So what do you say, Fred? I've got some holidays coming up, and I wanted
to go down to the U.S. of A. to train with Jedi Bryz.
Just say when...which reminds me of a joke (which I don't know why people
seem to find so funny, but whatever).
A guy was in a bar pouring a drink for a somewhat "outgoing" woman.
Guy: "Just say when"
Woman: "Right after this drink"
Why this is so funny, I dunno.
But since this is m.f.w. I gotta include something training related...
Hmmm...okay how about I list what I did in my last workout which was one
of my quickest ever (on purpose). Six sets, TOTAL and less than 30 minutes.
Feel good today (still sore though).
Here's what I did:
Nautilus Duo Leg Press (why this stack doesn't go above 510lbs upsets me)
Hammer Iso-Lateral Incline Press (Super Duper Slow - gotta protect the injured
pec. Love this exercise, BTW)
Nautilus Parallel Grip Pulldown (note: this was one of the "next generation"
machines which are supposedly extremely low friction. Friction is a bad thing)
Weighted Dips
Cybex Leg Extensions
Stiff Legged Deadlift (with the pronated grip Chuck Clark suggested. I can't
use as much poundage as he said, but I like the idea of improving one of weakest
links - grip strength).
There ya go - six sets, 1/2 hour. And I was sweating like Roseanne under a heat
lamp.
Later,
Wait! I forgot something big time important. Happy Canada Day (which is Monday)
to all my fellow Canucks!!!
Rob
Dr Squat
>>Someday we'll have a beer (or several) together.
>
>Only if you're buying. Hey, you must make more $$$ than I do. And that
>better be CANADIAN beer. No wimpy pencilneck geek American beer.
>
I'll buy...I make my own (bwats the HELL outa that stuff from up there on
the dew line!).
>> Maybe we'll invite Jedi Leistner. Gawd!
>
>Now wouldn't people want to be a fly on the wall for that one? Hey,
>what about a training session at Leistner's Iron Island Gym, than some
>brewskis? I'm sure Dr. Leistner would be happy to accomodate.
>
Poor skinny guy couldn't keep up. Let me tell you about Leistner. I've
known him since the sixties. He used to hang around the weightlifting
meets I lifted at. He LOVED weightlifters, apparently. He never lifted
though. Why? Don't know. Guess he HAD to learn SOMETHING in order to
get to be an important JEDI, no? Let's face it, he has to have a brain in
order to become a chiropractor, so I shouldn't pick on him too much. He
used to LOVE to pick on me in that funky "Iron Tip" newsletter of his, but
I got angry and he stopped. Have you been watching Muscular Development
by the way? This clown John Romano....a COOK... says he LOVED the curved
back ab machine Fred Koch is selling in Iron Man mag! Fred sells the ab
machine I invented (and for which I hold the patent). He gets a
salesman's commission, and I get the royalties. Then, totally unknowing,
the cook says that Dr. Squat can't hold his jock because all I know how to
do is sell garbage ab devices on TV! Isn't that ironic? Point: Leistner
escaped. No one will again! TELL him that! I LOVE Leistner! He's
really a nice guy. Not a lifter though...
>So what do you say, Fred? I've got some holidays coming up, and I wanted
>to go down to the U.S. of A. to train with Jedi Bryz.
>
What! ANOTHER 405 pound squatter? Is there enough room on the planet?
Yes, I saw his picture! Gotta tell ya...he'd a done better to HIDE it!
405 indeed! Mamma mia!
>Just say when...which reminds me of a joke (which I don't know why people
>seem to find so funny, but whatever). A guy was in a bar pouring a drink
for a somewhat "outgoing" woman. Guy: "Just >say when" Woman: "Right after
this drink" Why this is so funny, I dunno.
>
Me neither. But let me say when! NOW! Really! Call! I'd LOVE to
sit and chat...errrr...kibbitz.
>But since this is m.f.w. I gotta include something training related...
>Hmmm...okay how about I list what I did in my last workout which was one
>of my quickest ever (on purpose). Six sets, TOTAL and less than 30
minutes.
>
>Feel good today (still sore though).
Wait...let me read the workout first before I respond to this!
Hydroxyproline can be a reall KILLER!
>Here's what I did:
>Nautilus Duo Leg Press (why this stack doesn't go above 510lbs upsets me)
>Hammer Iso-Lateral Incline Press (Super Duper Slow - gotta protect the
injured
>pec. Love this exercise, BTW)
>Nautilus Parallel Grip Pulldown (note: this was one of the "next
generation"
>machines which are supposedly extremely low friction. Friction is a bad
thing)
Gotta interject this story...went to visit Arthur and he told me the same
thing as I was rubbing my, ummmm, LEG!
>Weighted Dips
>Cybex Leg Extensions
>Stiff Legged Deadlift (with the pronated grip Chuck Clark suggested. I
can't
>use as much poundage as he said, but I like the idea of improving one of
weakest
>links - grip strength).
>There ya go - six sets, 1/2 hour. And I was sweating like Roseanne under
a heat
>lamp.
>
What? You got sore from THIS warmup? MAMMA MIA! Rob, I gotta tell ya,
you're fooling, no? You're jesting! Clearly, you did all of these
exercises one set to failure, right? Why would I ask! Of COURSE you did
one set to failure! You're a JEDI! Jedi's ALWAYS fail! Now Rob, before
you gett cooked, let me tell y'all a story. You told me one, so now it's
my turn. Once there was a rooster. This rooster LOVED to do hens. It's
what roosters do. He did it and did it until all the hens died. So he a
laid down and pretended he was dead and vultures came a-circling. I say,
"HEY ROOSTER! Get up!" He says, "Shhhhhh!"
Now, the (admittedly weak) moral is that if all ya got is a (umm) HAMMER,
then you tend to think of everything as a NAIL! (Gawd, I've waited so
long for the right time to tell that story!) Hammer indeed!
Would you care to broaden your horizons and learn how to get STRONG? I
mean STRONG? You cannot do so with one set to failure, Rob. No one can.
I can show you how if you're interested in breaking away from the
Arthuresque limit, jsut for a few weeks...
>Later,
>
>Wait! I forgot something big time important. Happy Canada Day (which is
>Monday) to all my fellow Canucks!!!
>
>Rob
Well! At least we have SOMETHING in common besides liking beer. My daddy
was a Canuk. That is no joke! Lumberjack. His daddy was a Mountie.
Michael Leary
>better be CANADIAN beer. No wimpy pencilneck geek American beer.
Hold on, eh! I live in the NW US (Seattle), THE micro-brew capitol of the
world. Don't *even* slam US brew 'till you've been here!
ML
TMccull230
>1996). The correct marketing strategy companies use is find a bunch of
>RICH stupid people, and suck their wallets dry like a vacuum until all
you >find is lint (which I ST
You know Rob, there is nothing worse that a hypocrite. You put down
Fred for selling the Ab Roller and forget to mention that Jedi Ellington
Darden is Selling the Ab Trainer. He is using the same tactics, but he
claims his is better. If you guys are all bro's as you claim, then you
need to take a look at you own family first.
>And yes, Ken Leistner is one of the gods of strength training. He
>is...well, the HIT Jedi Master of Masters. Even the "anti-HIT" people
>don't say anything bad about him, ya notice that?
I know I have mentioned my feelings towards Leistner, I have been a
PLUSA subscriber since 1982 and have complained many times about the
rantings of Leistner. In fact, after all of these years, I canceled my
subscription because they continue to put crap in this magazine (like
Leistener's) that is of no use to anyone. Leistner certainly came to mind
when I canceled. This guy has done as much to try to splinter
powerlifting over the years as PLUSA itself has.
>What! ANOTHER 405 pound squatter? Is there enough room on the planet?
>Yes, I saw his picture! Gotta tell ya...he'd a done better to HIDE it!
>405 indeed! Mamma mia!
I like to read CyberPump every once in a while and it is always
updated. Some of the stuff is actually very funny. But those pictures!
Are you serious, or is this just more Jedi humor? If I was trying to
promote any type of training program as adamantly as you guys are, I would
certainly find someone that looks like it at least works. Couldn't you
get a picture of Dorian Yates or Mike Mintzer?
Speaking of HIT, I have never understood you guy's mission anyway,
why do you care so much that people use HIT? Get real, the type of
training program doesn't make near as big of a difference as how much
weight you use to get there. Let's face it, if you do not lift heavy
weight, you will not get very big, what ever program you use. Ask Dorian
Yates. Or for that matter ask Fred Hatfield. Out of all of the national
and world champions I have seen over the years, none of them use the same
training program. The only thing they do have in common is the use of
heavy weight. Everyone is different, so how can one program work for all.
That is complete bullshit!
Tom McCullough MS, RD, CSCS, MSS
Strength and Conditioning Coach
Sport Nutrition Consultant
Houston, TX
TMccull230
You know , I have been a competitive athlete for most all of my life
(baseball, football, kick boxing, water skiing, powerlifting) and the one
thing that all of the athletes in everyone of these sports agreed on was
positive thinking and eliminating failure. Now why would you want to
continuously reinforce failure. You can't think very positive about
anything when you always fail. I have always been a successful athlete.
I would never end my work out with a failure. That is always the first
thing I remember when I return. Is I didn't do this last time. Once in a
while is expected, but EVERY TIME.
>Now, the (admittedly weak) moral is that if all ya got is a (umm) HAMMER,
>then you tend to think of everything as a NAIL! (Gawd, I've waited so
>long for the right time to tell that story!) Hammer indeed!
Now that is funny Fred! This reminds me to make a comment on Hammer
equipment. I too have been around the iron game for a long time (but not
as long ad Fred). I have trained all over the USA and with lots of
National and World champions in powerlifting and bodybuilding. The funny
thing is I rarely (and I mean rarely) see any of them use Hammer
equipment. It's just another fucking maching! What's the big deal here.
Anyway, the people I do frequently see standing in line to use these
things are apparently seem to do so because they can put 3-4 plates on
each side the bench press machine and finally imagine what it is like to
push some real weight. They walk off all pumped up, but it is really only
their ego that was pumped. Yes, I do know what I am talking about. That
stuff has been crowding out every gym I have trained in for the past 7
years. I have also tried all of them from one time to another. But I
can't see to much use in a piece of equipment that I can't even load
enough weight on to do anything but pump up my ego. I went through that
phase in life years ago. Gee, I guess powerlifters just don't understand
body builders. But, I don't see the big body builders using this stuff
either. And we surely have plenty of both at World Gym, Houston. I think
Fred really summarized these machines as well as al of the rest of them.
"There is good , better and then best... so if a Hammer is all you have
then every thing looks like a Nail" Look around the gyms and see who
uses the machines, that should tell you something.
Rob, one more thing, the comments about consultants. Now, has anyone
critized you about your job? Let's leave jobs out of it, I happen to be a
consultant as well. Company cars, expense accounts, what have you, there
is more to life and working than that. I do what I do because I enjoy it.
I really could care a less about what material value I get out of it.
Rob, why don't you take Fred up on his offer to train with some real
weight? Just think, if it doesn't work, you could prove that HIT is
better. However, if you can't hang, HIT may look pretty bad. Up for it.
I would pay to see this!
Tom
by...@news.epix.net
Robert Spector (ro...@zap.io.org) wrote:
: >Someday we'll have a beer (or several) together.
: Only if you're buying. Hey, you must make more $$$ than I do. And that
: better be CANADIAN beer. No wimpy pencilneck geek American beer.
Fucking Canadians. I don't know how many times I have had one of them
bending my ear in an American bar, telling me how watery and weak our beer
is, all the time wobbling and slurring from a very average dose of the
stuff.
Ah, Happy Canada Day anyway.
byron
William A. Piche
--
Bill Piche (bap...@cca.rockwell.com)
Cyberpump! http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/4000/
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are those of the author and not
Bob Mann
by...@news.epix.net () wrote:
>Robert Spector (ro...@zap.io.org) wrote:
>byron
That's just our accent, EH?
Bob
Garry Holmen
Dr Squat (drs...@aol.com) wrote:
: OK, so your're not sarcastic all the time. But did I detect SOME sarcasm
: in your protestation? No?
:
: Someday we'll have a beer (or several) together. Maybe we'll invite Jedi
: Leistner. Gawd!
Leistner drinking beer... I can almost picture it except for all that
purple cloth getting in the way. 8^)
Of course we'll want a photo Fred... this would be similar to receiving
a photo shoot involving Big Foot, Elvis and Hoffa. 8^)
Garry
Garry Holmen
TMccull230 (tmccu...@aol.com) wrote:
: You know Rob, there is nothing worse that a hypocrite. You put down
: Fred for selling the Ab Roller and forget to mention that Jedi Ellington
: Darden is Selling the Ab Trainer. He is using the same tactics, but he
: claims his is better. If you guys are all bro's as you claim, then you
: need to take a look at you own family first.
Darden is selling the Ab Trainer... bwahahahaha.... I guess being a HIT
god doesn't pay that much. 8^)
: I know I have mentioned my feelings towards Leistner, I have been a
: PLUSA subscriber since 1982 and have complained many times about the
: rantings of Leistner. In fact, after all of these years, I canceled my
: subscription because they continue to put crap in this magazine (like
: Leistener's) that is of no use to anyone. Leistner certainly came to mind
: when I canceled. This guy has done as much to try to splinter
: powerlifting over the years as PLUSA itself has.
You know I kind of agree with you here Tom. When I first saw that Leistner
had a column in PLUSA I thought "Okay... now I can see what Rob's talking
about" but I find that there is usually very little info in those columns.
Some good stuff on equipment but am I going to buy a monolift? 8^) And
his stance on the IPA just irks me... this is a step away from unification
which would be the best thing for our sport.
ANd that purple.... yech... 8^)
: I like to read CyberPump every once in a while and it is always
: updated. Some of the stuff is actually very funny. But those pictures!
: Are you serious, or is this just more Jedi humor? If I was trying to
: promote any type of training program as adamantly as you guys are, I would
: certainly find someone that looks like it at least works. Couldn't you
: get a picture of Dorian Yates or Mike Mintzer?
Actually... although I would never want to look like Lamar Gant I'ld
sure love to have a deadlift like his. Those pictures are real people
doing real workouts and I respect that as much as would some steroid
induced monster like Yates... like you say below the workout doesn't
really matter all that much. Heck Rob could be a periodized plyometric
fool and he'ld still look the way he does I bet.
: Speaking of HIT, I have never understood you guy's mission anyway,
: why do you care so much that people use HIT? Get real, the type of
: training program doesn't make near as big of a difference as how much
: weight you use to get there. Let's face it, if you do not lift heavy
: weight, you will not get very big, what ever program you use. Ask Dorian
: Yates. Or for that matter ask Fred Hatfield. Out of all of the national
: and world champions I have seen over the years, none of them use the same
: training program. The only thing they do have in common is the use of
: heavy weight. Everyone is different, so how can one program work for all.
: That is complete bullshit!
Again I agree with the above... but like you have mentioned no one trains the
same and the HIT cabal just want to put their training techniques across.
This si no different then Louie Simmons or Fred Hatfield... the sharing
of knowledge is a good thing.
This coming from a confirmed anti-HIT guy....
Garry
Robert Spector
You couldn't stay outta this one, could ya Garry, ole bean?
I have an "official" answer to Fred regarding the "challenge"
but that's not this post.
You'll have to stay tuned...
<Mwahahahahahahaha>
In article <4rgve6$m...@mailer.mda.ca>, Garry Holmen <ga...@mda.ca> wrote:
>TMccull230 (tmccu...@aol.com) wrote:
>: You know Rob, there is nothing worse that a hypocrite.
I beg to differ. How about a liar, or a someone who is criminally negligent?
Not to mention someone who is a facist, murderer, etc....
>: You put down
>: Fred for selling the Ab Roller
Bzzzt!!! Wrong! Tell me WHERE *I* put down Fred for promoting the Ab thingie?
I don't believe I did. Garry did, though, remember?
So thus your whole point is moot, Tom, but let's continue anyways to clear up
some other things...
>: and forget to mention that Jedi Ellington
>: Darden is Selling the Ab Trainer. He is using the same tactics, but he
>: claims his is better. If you guys are all bro's as you claim, then you
>: need to take a look at you own family first.
Careful with the family comments...
Anyways to answer your query you should know that I have stated in the past
(and I believe it is documented on Cyberpump!...somewhere) that Darden was
a sell-out a LONG time ago.
Why do you think the other HITers like Leistner hate him? And others don't
take too kindly to his arrogance. Funny though, he does seem to respect what
Fred has to say.
Don't believe me? Then pick up a copy of Dard's book, "100 High Intensity
Ways to Improve..." I forget the exact title. Whatever.
Anyways, there are two points where Fred is mentioned. One, his book, "A
Scientific Approach to..." is mentioned as another source of info.
Go check, it's there.
Also, he quotes Fred on why it's foolish to perform 1RMs....actually that's
kinda weird...now as part of Fred's training program, doesn't he espouse the
use of 1RMs, and such low rep schemes, when he was quoted as saying in Dard's
book to the effect that (and if someone has the EXACT quote, so I'm not accused
of putting things out of context, please post):
"Performing a 1 rep maximum is the number one cause of injuries in the gym...
it is a foolish display of ego..."
Or whatever. It was something to that effect.
So...Dard quotes Fred, seems to respect Fred, and maybe even copies Fred
by endorsing things. Maybe Dard is Fred? Okay, I'll stop at that point.
But it should be pointed out since Fred brought up who can lift what, that
Darden has actually WON a bodybuilding contest, and came in 10th at the Mr. America
contest (when Casey Viator won as the youngest man EVER to win).
So....
Anyways, to continue with the earlier point, you just ask around HITland
(Florida?) and see how popular Dard is. Seems to me, only Art Jones still
likes him.
Darden sold out to commercialism long ago with his books. He also pissed
off his employer (Nautilus at the time) when he published, "High Intensity
Strength Training" (which I think is his best book, BTW) which featured
HAMMER equipment in many photos.
That didn't go over very well.
Now Darden is on his own. Lots of money, but not many friends.
>Darden is selling the Ab Trainer... bwahahahaha.... I guess being a HIT
>god doesn't pay that much. 8^)
I believe Darden has sold more books than ANY other author in this field.
He's rich, BIG TIME.
I guess he's also greedy...
>
>: I know I have mentioned my feelings towards Leistner, I have been a
>: PLUSA subscriber since 1982 and have complained many times about the
>: rantings of Leistner. In fact, after all of these years, I canceled my
>: subscription because they continue to put crap in this magazine (like
>: Leistener's) that is of no use to anyone. Leistner certainly came to mind
>: when I canceled. This guy has done as much to try to splinter
>: powerlifting over the years as PLUSA itself has.
I do not read PLUSA, I don't lift competitively, and I could care less what
Dr. Ken's views on the sport are. He is eccentric..but who cares?
His training advice is what I care about. And it's DAMN good advice (and
that's NOT "IMHO").
>You know I kind of agree with you here Tom.
Hey, maybe I agree too, after all I don't particularly like Art Jones' views
on alot of things (like shooting people who annoy you...maybe that's an American
thing?), but WHO CARES about that??? You judge someone's training advice
by whether they vote Republican or Democrat?
This logic seems somehow logical to you?
> When I first saw that Leistner
>had a column in PLUSA I thought "Okay... now I can see what Rob's talking
>about"
About what?
> but I find that there is usually very little info in those columns.
Get some old "Steel Tips" from IronMan mag. And get the HIT Newsletter
back issues where he did features on the deadlift, squat, etc. etc.
If you can then tell me there's "very little info" there, then I must
say you must be the top of the food chain in terms of knowledge in this
field, Garry. And I do not mean that as an insult to you. You know
me better than that now.
>Some good stuff on equipment but am I going to buy a monolift? 8^) And
>his stance on the IPA just irks me... this is a step away from unification
>which would be the best thing for our sport.
Don't know...don't care.
>ANd that purple.... yech... 8^)
At least it ain't commie pink....
>: I like to read CyberPump every once in a while and it is always
>: updated. Some of the stuff is actually very funny.
I trust you mean in a good way. I believe you respect Bro' Bill, Tom,
correct? And I thought we had an understanding as well, correct?
We can agree to disagree, can we not?
>: But those pictures!
Yeah, well...I could only supply a fuzzy mug shot. Sorry.
>: Are you serious, or is this just more Jedi humor?
Serious. This is what's called REAL LIFE people - not comic book steroid
enhanced guys like Muscle & Fiction.
Hey, Bro' Bill could post pictures of Dorian Yates, but what's the point?
OR, he could (and might) post pictures of people like Kevin Tolbert (Dr.
Ken's adopted son and genetic strength freak), Junior Seau, etc.
But those aren't that realistic in the sense that's what most people could
possibly attain. Yeah, right, like I could ever be as strong as Junior Seau
no matter WHAT I did...sure.
>: If I was trying to
>: promote any type of training program as adamantly as you guys are
Okay, let's get one thing straight - what are we "promoting"???? Fred gets
paid by M&F, endorsements, etc. What do *I* get outta this?
Zippo. No cash. NONE of us do. Bryz has his book, but it's far from
being commercial like Darden's are. It's a TEXTBOOK.
And if Bryz really wanted to make money, how come he doesn't endorse
anything?
Things that make you go, "hmmmm..."
>: I would
>: certainly find someone that looks like it at least works.
What is "works"? Define. I see a pic of Bro' Bill there, doing an official
deadlift of 600lbs at under 200lb bw. Hey, he knows that isn't any kinda
world record, but are you going to tell me that's not "good"?
And at least Bill has never juiced (and not to imply that you, Tom, or Garry
have. Fred has admitted he has, so there's no argument there).
>: Couldn't you
>: get a picture of Dorian Yates or Mike Mintzer?
There is one pic of Yates, BTW. More pics are coming as well.
Hey, I'm flattered you guys visit Cyberpump! so much. I see Gary even
has a good rant there.
>Actually... although I would never want to look like Lamar Gant I'ld
>sure love to have a deadlift like his. Those pictures are real people
>doing real workouts and I respect that as much as would some steroid
>induced monster like Yates... like you say below the workout doesn't
>really matter all that much.
Thank you, Garry. I couldn't have said it better myself (well..actually
I could have, HAH!).
> Heck Rob could be a periodized plyometric
>fool and he'ld still look the way he does I bet.
Ummmm....I can say with a high degree of confidence, NO. If I did plyometrics
I would probably have to have surgery now. There's NO WAY my lower back could
take that at my bw. Not even with zippo weight.
And remember, I HAVE used "periodization" as I told you before. READ my
training history (which I've started a few years of on Cyberpump!). Hey,
as Dr. Ken said, I'm not saying it doesn't "work" (and didja ever notice that
the "HITers" never say, "periodization doesn't work!" but it sure as hell
goes the other way, doesn't it?).
BTW, wanna know one good reason why "we" get pissed? Because there are
some clowns out there who STILL say that what I do is "wrong" or "doesn't
work" and my gains are "psychological".
Yeah, right. I'm in a dreamworld. Hey, I'm no strength god, but as
people on this newsgroup who have actually seen me and met me in person
know, I've come a loooooong way, baby.
From 5'11", 135lb ectomorph poster boy, "Hey guy, you're head is too
big for your body, yuk yuk yuk". Hah, who's the fool now, huh?
To, 5'11" (I think) 210lb...well okay looking physique guy. I'm never
going to be a Junior Seau but so what? BTW, I don't know my bodyfat,
but I do know that 34" jeans are loose around my waist. I think that
that's a good indication of something, huh?
Wanna get into poundages? Too bad, I don't do that.
>: Speaking of HIT, I have never understood you guy's mission anyway,
To train to failure and to help other young newbies from doing dumb things that
we did when we didn't know better (i.e., explosive lifting that caused some
of us injuries).
I don't have the official HIT mission statement on me, so that's all I can
remmeber.
>: why do you care so much that people use HIT?
I don't. Why should I? If I did, I would give up my job, become a strength
coach and/or personal trainer.
Sorry, no go. Train how you want, what do I care? The point is, don't
you or anybody else tell me I could do "better" training doing something
that I've already done. And don't tell me I'm imagining things, or
maybe I gained everything from water retention, or something dumb like that.
>: Get real
You live in B.C. and you're telling ME to get real?
>: the type of
>: training program doesn't make near as big of a difference as how much
>: weight you use to get there.
I'm trying to figure out just what your point is here...progression?
Yes, that's a good thing.
>: Let's face it, if you do not lift heavy
>: weight, you will not get very big, what ever program you use.
Uh, yeah....and if you don't have the genetics to lift "heavy weight" you
ain't gonna get big. Sorry, that's life, and as my Boston Bro' says:
"DEAL WITH IT!!!!"
>: Ask Dorian
>: Yates.
He's too busy training for the Mr. O. right now. I don't wanna bug a
guy who's got more muscle mass on his body than...well almost anybody.
>: Or for that matter ask Fred Hatfield.
I already took Fred's advice YEARS ago. I have nothing left to ask Fred,
thanks. He can train his way, and he can continue to berate others in
his articles.
Only makes him look bad. Too bad you can't be more like your son, Fred.
I must compliment you - you have raised an honourable, decent guy, who's
very open-minded. I respect what Fred2 has to say, and he knows that.
And when you put down Matt Brzycki's lift, you do realize you are putting
down YOUR OWN SON! Hey, maybe you and my dad can get together, you seem
to have some things in common.
hey, you even both have Phds...but his is in Physics.
>: Out of all of the national
>: and world champions I have seen over the years, none of them use the same
>: training program.
I agree with you, Tom. And what "HITers" use the SAME training program?
Does my routine loook ANYTHING like Matt's? Not even remotely similar.
Or does it look like Bro' Bill's? Nope.
So what's this, "HITers promote one single training program".
Nope, read the HIT FAQ. You can't even say that we all do one set. We
do 1-3 sets. But we all train hard, and brief....and are carbon based
lifeforms.
>: The only thing they do have in common is the use of
>: heavy weight.
Uh, yeah....
>: Everyone is different, so how can one program work for all.
>: That is complete bullshit!
I agree with your statement, 100%.
>Again I agree with the above... but like you have mentioned no one trains the
>same and the HIT cabal just want to put their training techniques across.
Oh, please. Yeah, that's it. It's some form of "hero worship" like Fred
says. Who's the hero? And who's the ZERO?
>This si no different then Louie Simmons or Fred Hatfield... the sharing
>of knowledge is a good thing.
Yes it is. And if you notice, the latest addition to the Cyberpump! staff
(who don't get paid very well by Bro' Bill, but we still do it <sniff>),
Chuck, wrote that one should read what Fred says and what it says on
Cyberpump! Then decide for yourself.
Funny, I have quotes from Art Jones that say the same thing...
>
>This coming from a confirmed anti-HIT guy....
Yeah yeah yeah, we know that. So..wait a sec, another thought (how many
is that so far)...if you're "anti-HIT", as is Fred...and Fred has gone
to great lengths to put down HIT...then who is the one who is really
on a "crusade" here?
You know, I was being honest with Fred with my offer to train and have
a brew afterwards. Hey, I don't want enemies...I have to dodge enough
lift trucks everyday (plyometrics?).
But *I* didn't bring in the poundages, and *I* didn't call someone else
a "fruitcake with a low-to-medium IQ". And *I* didn't say that about
someone that I first welcomed aboard as a fellow ex-marine.
Funny, as I said before, I was told by Matt that there was this thing
about Marines having this honour thingie, and not insulting each other...
yet WHO started insulting who here?
And to reply to a couple other comments Tom made:
Tom, I don't have a company car. I don't understand where you got that
one from. I was not braggin about my salary compared to Fred's - there's
nothing to brag about, cuz I'm sure Fred makes a sHITload more than
I do.
And yes, I LOVE my line of work. Money is secondary, because as I even
said this week - if money was my primary goal, then why the fugg would
I be an engineer employed as a management consultant?????
I hope this cleared a few things up. Clear as mud? As Met-RX?
Ciao,
Rob
Garry Holmen
Robert Spector (ro...@zot.io.org) wrote:
:
: You couldn't stay outta this one, could ya Garry, ole bean?
[Sure... you know you probably could cut down on the lengths
of these posts if we replied to Tom and I separately... Or this
there some warp/time delay thing in Torawna.]
: Also, he quotes Fred on why it's foolish to perform 1RMs....actually that's
: kinda weird...now as part of Fred's training program, doesn't he espouse the
: use of 1RMs, and such low rep schemes, when he was quoted as saying in Dard's
: book to the effect that (and if someone has the EXACT quote, so I'm not accused
: of putting things out of context, please post):
:
: "Performing a 1 rep maximum is the number one cause of injuries in the gym...
: it is a foolish display of ego..."
Makes perfect sense as a powerlifter. Performing a 1RM doesn't make you
stronger or allow you to perfect form, etc. The only reasons to preform
1RM is for competition or to guage where you are now compared to where
you were X time ago. Training with 1RM is stupid and as Fred says will
lead to injuries. Fred does advocate low rep schemes... most powerlifters
so. But that's different then 1RMs.
: > [I, Garry said > ]
: > When I first saw that Leistner
: >had a column in PLUSA I thought "Okay... now I can see what Rob's talking
: >about"
:
: About what?
Well for the longest time you talked about Leistner's training techniques
and powerlifting routines and I thought I might see some of that info.
But I found out that the Purple One's column in PLUSA isn't for that.
Actaully, I haven't figured out what his direction is in that column yet.
I still continue to read it...
: If you can then tell me there's "very little info" there, then I must
: say you must be the top of the food chain in terms of knowledge in this
: field, Garry. And I do not mean that as an insult to you. You know
: me better than that now.
Very little info in his PLUSA column Rob. I haven't looked into the
info you speak above. No insult intended nor taken... when I stop
learning dig a hole and bury me.
: >ANd that purple.... yech... 8^)
:
: At least it ain't commie pink....
This coming from a guy who doesn't like greedy entrepreneurists like Darden.
8^)
: And at least Bill has never juiced (and not to imply that you, Tom, or Garry
: have. Fred has admitted he has, so there's no argument there).
Doesn't mean anything to me... I'm still amazed by Fred's squat whether he
juiced or not. I know I'm competing 100% within the rules of the CPU and
IPF and that is important to me.
: Hey, I'm flattered you guys visit Cyberpump! so much. I see Gary even
: has a good rant there.
I even asked Bill if he would be interested in my squat and deadlift
pages when I add the pictures and more info in them. Heck... I'm no
600 lb squatter yet... but I've only got into powerlifting in the last
year. I don't need to become a national champion overnight. 8^)
But if any of my hints or tips can aid a novice lifter starting out it's
not a problem for me to supply that info. (Those pages are about 60%
complete... got to scan the pics)
: And remember, I HAVE used "periodization" as I told you before. READ my
: training history (which I've started a few years of on Cyberpump!). Hey,
: as Dr. Ken said, I'm not saying it doesn't "work" (and didja ever notice that
: the "HITers" never say, "periodization doesn't work!" but it sure as hell
: goes the other way, doesn't it?).
I have never said HIT doesn't work... what I have said is that for me a good
periodized workout works better. I've used HIT like techniques and routines
when it's convenient and fits my goals. Right now I'm only doing 2 sets
of about 5-6 exercises 4 times a week split into body parts. I could
almost call it a HIT routine if I didn't vary the rep scheme in a
periodized fashion. [Heck right now I'm experimenting with a randomized
routine that seems to be working great for me... 30+ lbs on the bench, 60+
lbs on the squat and almost 80 on the deadlift. ]
: BTW, wanna know one good reason why "we" get pissed? Because there are
: some clowns out there who STILL say that what I do is "wrong" or "doesn't
: work" and my gains are "psychological".
Oops... someone has touched a nerve. 8^)
: To, 5'11" (I think) 210lb...well okay looking physique guy. I'm never
: going to be a Junior Seau but so what? BTW, I don't know my bodyfat,
: but I do know that 34" jeans are loose around my waist. I think that
: that's a good indication of something, huh?
Congrats Rob... as long as you're happy and meeting your goals.
: >: Get real
:
: You live in B.C. and you're telling ME to get real?
And that means? Hey Tom who said this lives in Texas I believe. 8^)
That's a long way from Canada Rob... unless you got me and Tom confused
here.
: Uh, yeah....and if you don't have the genetics to lift "heavy weight" you
: ain't gonna get big. Sorry, that's life, and as my Boston Bro' says:
:
: "DEAL WITH IT!!!!"
Actually that is a Ronbo quote I think....
: >Again I agree with the above... but like you have mentioned no one trains the
: >same and the HIT cabal just want to put their training techniques across.
:
: Oh, please. Yeah, that's it. It's some form of "hero worship" like Fred
: says. Who's the hero? And who's the ZERO?
Huh? You've lost me Rob... where is any mention of a hero in the above
statement. The only people's progress I care about is my workout partners
and my own. I have no heroes but I'm always willing to listen to
experience.
: >This coming from a confirmed anti-HIT guy....
:
: Yeah yeah yeah, we know that. So..wait a sec, another thought (how many
: is that so far)...if you're "anti-HIT", as is Fred...and Fred has gone
: to great lengths to put down HIT...then who is the one who is really
: on a "crusade" here?
Not me... I've been down that path too many times between you, Paul and
Barry Merriman. 8^) I'm was just saying that HIT has some advantages that
are useful and though I'm not part of the HIT cabal I still can see that.
I don't care if I train HIT, HOOT, Mentzer, or something advertised on
Sesame Street as long as I can get gains on my lifts and keep myself
healthy and injury free.
Garry