(Mostly) Just the Big Three?
Dirk
for months now and not a) enjoying it much or b) making any gains.
[I won't delve into the "whys" of points a) and b) except to mention
that the post-squat soreness has been so nasty sometimes that I
haven't wanted to run for two or three days afterwards. And (guess I
should mention) I do have some aspirations as a recreational runner to
improve my 5K times, which are nothing great but typically just in the
top quarter of my age group in local runs.]
I've been thinking that I'd be better off just doing the big three
compound lifts, and alternating between a higher weight/shorter rep
type of day and a lower weight/higher rep routine, for a few reasons
that come to mind:
1) Doing the one-bodypart-per-week thing seems to induce a ridiculous
degree of DOMS in me, and I've found that doing the same lift twice a
week seems to mitigate that.
2) Squats, deadlifts, and bench press are the only poundages I really
seem to care about anyway. I could give a crap about how much I can
military press or bent-over db row, y'know? I know it's just bragging
rights, or in my case, whispering rights (my totals are a joke, of
course), but still; I do entertain notions of entering a PL meet one
day just to verify that I'm actually lifting what I'm telling myself
I'm lifting. So I guess I care.
3) Squats, deadlifts, and bench press seem to be the only important
lifts in terms of functional strenth related to occasional physically
strenuous tasks that need doin' around the house, i.e., picking up
large/heavy things and putting them back down, or pushing, say, a
wheelbarrow around. Why even bother with the isolation stuff?
Well, just wondering if I'm deluding myself, or missing some obvious
reasons why I should do more than just the Big Three, or something
altogether different.
--Dirk
PS: I'm 44. I'm about 150#, 5'8½", in good health, been lifting and
running with varying degrees of seriousness for about four years now.
Keith Hobman
da_b...@hotmail.com (Dirk) wrote:
As a powerlifter I focus on the big three and since doing a Sheiko routine
where I lift four times per week doing either the bench and squat or bench
and deadlift I have made considerable gains. I'm also a former runner who
has done several marathons as well as numerous 5-20 km races. My 5K time
was just under 20 minutes, which wasn't bad for a 200 lbs master runner.
Like you I found once per week made me seriously sore and didn't do much
else. I have no interest in gaining weight - I compete at 220 lbs and
intend to stay there.
I also do a lot of olympic lifts and variations. Interestingly I can still
do things like chins with a 90 lbs dumbbell for additional resistance even
though I don't do these movements. So I honestly think you could do the
big three and get serious results in terms of strenght gain in these
movements.
--
Keith Hobman
You can put your boots in the oven, but that doesn't make them biscuits.
Donovan Rebbechi
> [I won't delve into the "whys" of points a) and b) except to mention
> that the post-squat soreness has been so nasty sometimes that I
> haven't wanted to run for two or three days afterwards. And (guess I
How many sets are you doing, and how hard are you pushing yourself on them ?
Given the excessive soreness, my guess is too many and/or too hard.
Have you considered cycling your training ? That is, varying from light weights
with fast reps stopping well short of failure (so you can do them quickly) to
heavy weights/low reps ?
> should mention) I do have some aspirations as a recreational runner to
> improve my 5K times, which are nothing great but typically just in the
> top quarter of my age group in local runs.]
Squats and running are at odds. These two exercises really like to fight each
other.
My suggestion would be to make your "rest day" for running the day after the
squats, and tune your leg workout so that you're capable of running two days
from it. Of course you'll probably havesome muscle soreness two days after
squats, but as long as you can still run (slowly), that's OK. If you're
*really* sore after two days, your leg workout is too hard.
> I've been thinking that I'd be better off just doing the big three
> compound lifts,
Even power lifters do some helper exercises. At least do close-grip bench
presses, some ab work and an exercise for your lats.
> and alternating between a higher weight/shorter rep
> type of day and a lower weight/higher rep routine, for a few reasons
> that come to mind:
Another thing worth thinking about is that the eccentric (lowering) phase
causes more muscle soreness. If you do explosive reps on a light weight, you
get reasonable intensity with a reduced eccentric load.
> 1) Doing the one-bodypart-per-week thing seems to induce a ridiculous
> degree of DOMS in me, and I've found that doing the same lift twice a
> week seems to mitigate that.
Are you thinking of doing your entire body in one workout ? You could, but
that's going to be tough. A powerlifting program I once tried that worked
well with running involved a two day split, and two light days (four
days/week). You could combine the two light days into one. The program used a
lot of explosive reps, but no training to failure. I didn't make the same
lifting gains I made on a high intensity program, but I was able to improve my
squat technique and poundages without hurting my running.
> 3) Squats, deadlifts, and bench press seem to be the only important
> lifts in terms of functional strenth related to occasional physically
> strenuous tasks that need doin' around the house, i.e., picking up
> large/heavy things and putting them back down, or pushing, say, a
> wheelbarrow around. Why even bother with the isolation stuff?
You're going to need a strong mid-section for these things -- when you lift
items around the house, the weights aren't nicely distributed which means you
need those stabilisers.
I agree that cutesy "isolation" exercises "for shaping the muscle" are a waste
of time. But a good midsection (abs/obliques) program would be a good idea.
> Well, just wondering if I'm deluding myself, or missing some obvious
> reasons why I should do more than just the Big Three, or something
> altogether different.
You're not far wrong. I agree in principle, but I suggest at least doing some
midsection work and a lats exercise. If you've got more time, add dumbell
shoulder presses and close grip bench.
--
Donovan
Steve Freides
Dirk, don't I remember you from rec.running? I also recall you live in
New Jersey like me, no?
No surprise to regular readers, but I think the deadlift is the most
important of the Big Three for functional strength. I think the bench
press is completely dispensable unless you plan to compete, and there is
enough work in deadlifting that you just don't need to squat, too,
unless you want to. Keith's suggest of alternating DL and SQ workouts
(benching during them all, if you must bench) is one I've heard before
and one that makes sense to me.
You'll get much more core stabilization work, very useful to a runner,
if you do some sort of one-armed standing overhead press as a
replacement for your barbell bench press. I do kettlebell military
presses, I used to do one-armed barbell sidepresses, and even
Arnold-style dumbell presses or military presses would be good workouts
for your entire midsection. Standing and not sitting is important for
them all. Hell, even one armed deadlifts are good for your mid-section.
I'm about 1" shorter than you, 3 years older, and the same weight. One
day last week, after my lifting (that included clean and jerks and
swings at the end), I went out an ran 2 miles at 6:45/mile pace without
even trying too hard. I'm convinced that deadlifting and overhead
pressings are a great combination for a runner. I lift Mo/Tu/Th/Fr and
run after lifting on those days. Twice a week wouldn't be enough for my
forgetful nervous system to make any progress on.
=S=
Keith Hobman
<st...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
Good advice IMO. And for whats its worth - I agree about the bench. If I
was a runner i'd do overhead presses instead and I'd consider front
squatting instead of back squatting.
Voxel Descartes
@posting.google.com:
> 3) Squats, deadlifts, and bench press seem to be the only important
> lifts in terms of functional strenth related to occasional physically
> strenuous tasks that need doin' around the house, i.e., picking up
> large/heavy things and putting them back down, or pushing, say, a
> wheelbarrow around. Why even bother with the isolation stuff?
Well, your biceps aren't getting any full-range work out of the "big
three." For that matter, neither is your upper back. Chins would cover
those bases pretty well, and would only add one exercise.
Also, if you're anything like me, bench pressing will do nothing for your
shoulders, so some type of overhead pressing would be needed.
Actually, that pretty much describes my new routine:
Squat
Stiff-Leg Deadlift
Chin-up
Bench Press
Military Press
Weighted Crunches
John Lilly
"Dirk" <da_b...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f1e3e17f.0208...@posting.google.com...
I recently started the Bill Star routine at
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manrodt4.htm . It is
basically the big 3 with a little assistance. It really has cut down on gym
time and the results are better for me than each body part once a week.
It's very rare that I experience DOMS any more. I
John
Dirk Bender
> Dirk, don't I remember you from rec.running?
Oh, sure. I don't post there, or here, very often any more, but I peek in
now and then.
> I also recall you live in New Jersey like me, no?
I did until about a year ago (lived in Teaneck, I figured it was just a
matter of time before we wound up at the same race). Since relocated to the
Atlanta 'burbs.
[snip concurrence with Keith]
> You'll get much more core stabilization work, very useful to a runner,
> if you do some sort of one-armed standing overhead press as a
> replacement for your barbell bench press. I do kettlebell military
> presses, I used to do one-armed barbell sidepresses, and even
> Arnold-style dumbell presses or military presses would be good workouts
> for your entire midsection. Standing and not sitting is important for
> them all. Hell, even one armed deadlifts are good for your mid-section.
I've read all the other replies, thanks to all for your quick work! I am
thinking about adding pullups one day, and standing military press on the
other, and seeing how that goes.
As for ab work, I agree, that's a good thing to include. So, we're looking
at the big three plus one or two each session. I think I can manage that.
--Dirk
Steve Freides
>
> "Steve Freides" <st...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote ...
>
> > Dirk, don't I remember you from rec.running?
>
> Oh, sure. I don't post there, or here, very often any more, but I peek in
> now and then.
>
> > I also recall you live in New Jersey like me, no?
>
> I did until about a year ago (lived in Teaneck, I figured it was just a
> matter of time before we wound up at the same race). Since relocated to the
> Atlanta 'burbs.
I'm planning on being buried in this backyard, provided the piss-poor
economy turns around soon enough for me to keep the house <laughing and
crying simultaneously>.
> [snip concurrence with Keith]
>
> > You'll get much more core stabilization work, very useful to a runner,
> > if you do some sort of one-armed standing overhead press as a
> > replacement for your barbell bench press. I do kettlebell military
> > presses, I used to do one-armed barbell sidepresses, and even
> > Arnold-style dumbell presses or military presses would be good workouts
> > for your entire midsection. Standing and not sitting is important for
> > them all. Hell, even one armed deadlifts are good for your mid-section.
>
> I've read all the other replies, thanks to all for your quick work! I am
> thinking about adding pullups one day, and standing military press on the
> other, and seeing how that goes.
>
> As for ab work, I agree, that's a good thing to include. So, we're looking
> at the big three plus one or two each session. I think I can manage that.
Sounds good. Just keep in mind that you can kill a lot of birds with
one stone by doing one-armed overhead presses - you'll get a lot of ab
work, perhaps even enough that you'll need minimal or no additional ab
work. I was doing both and found I was overtraining my abs so I've gone
back to very minimal ab work, basically just when I feel like it, and
often it's just one set of 3-5 reps and I'm done. While I think the
standing barbell two-hand military press is a fine movement, I prefer to
do overhead squats with very light weight from time to time for
flexibility and focus the heavy lifting on the one-handed stuff.
-S-
dahammel
1) Look up Stephen Korte's 3X3 training if you really want to concentrate on
strength with the 3 big lifts.
2) Don't ignore your upper back, rotator cuffs, etc. The three lifts are
important, but if you're creating muscle imbalances or increase injury
potential by ignoring other areas, they're useless because you'll be too
hurt to train. Not to mention, if you're a runner, don't forget to work
your calves for injury prevention.
d.
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Dorai Sitaram
Steve Freides <st...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>Dirk Bender wrote:
>>
>> I've read all the other replies, thanks to all for your quick work! I am
>> thinking about adding pullups one day, and standing military press on the
>> other, and seeing how that goes.
>>
>> As for ab work, I agree, that's a good thing to include. So, we're looking
>> at the big three plus one or two each session. I think I can manage that.
>
>Sounds good. Just keep in mind that you can kill a lot of birds with
>one stone by doing one-armed overhead presses - you'll get a lot of ab
>work, perhaps even enough that you'll need minimal or no additional ab
>work. I was doing both and found I was overtraining my abs so I've gone
>back to very minimal ab work, basically just when I feel like it, and
>often it's just one set of 3-5 reps and I'm done. While I think the
>standing barbell two-hand military press is a fine movement, I prefer to
>do overhead squats with very light weight from time to time for
>flexibility and focus the heavy lifting on the one-handed stuff.
For exercises that can be performed using both arms
simultaneously (like bicep curls, overhead (shoulder)
presses, bentover rows, bentover raises), is there in
general an advantage to doing them one-armed? Any
disadvantage (other than doubling the time required to
complete them)?
(I guess by one-armed overhead press, you mean you lift
a dumbbell, not the entire barbell as a Tsatsouline
photo showed?)
Thanks.
Steve Freides
>
> -snip-
>
> For exercises that can be performed using both arms
> simultaneously (like bicep curls, overhead (shoulder)
> presses, bentover rows, bentover raises), is there in
> general an advantage to doing them one-armed? Any
> disadvantage (other than doubling the time required to
> complete them)?
>
> (I guess by one-armed overhead press, you mean you lift
> a dumbbell, not the entire barbell as a Tsatsouline
> photo showed?)
Yes, there is an advantage - it works your midsection, especially the
sides of your midsection, in a way the same lift done with two hands
will not - basically you have to keep yourself from being pulled over by
the weight. You can do these presses with a dumbell, a barbell, or
whatever else strikes your fancy.
As one example, I do kettlebell military presses. It's easier for me to
press one of them overhead if I'm holding another in the other hand than
it is just to press one. I work the "see-saw" press of two bells
periodically for variety but mostly work them one-arm at a time, weaker
arm first.
-S-