Kieser training . . .
martin
warm-ups and only three half-hour sessions a week. There is a lot of
stress placed on back strengthening. Mr Kieser is a Swiss ex-boxer.
It is claimed Kieser cures bad backs, prevents osteoporosis, improves
posture, and promotes weight-loss.
I understand Kieser has quite a following in Europe, where 130,000 people
use Kieser training facilities.
Regards
Martin
.. @@ .. Unlock the doors to Personal and Financial Success
.. >> .. Take the first step now. Simple. Easy. Nothing to lose
.. ^^^^ .. http://www.secrets2success.com/special191870
Duane
"martin" <roge...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:Cuy28.75985$HW3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> Does anyone have an opinion of Kieser Training? I read it involves no
> warm-ups and only three half-hour sessions a week. There is a lot of
> stress placed on back strengthening. Mr Kieser is a Swiss ex-boxer.
>
> It is claimed Kieser cures bad backs, prevents osteoporosis, improves
> posture, and promotes weight-loss.
>
> I understand Kieser has quite a following in Europe, where 130,000 people
> use Kieser training facilities.
I am currently training at the London "Facility" right now. But only because
I wanted to use some of the MedX equipment. Their training methodology is
basically HIT. (www.cyberpump.com and read the HIT FAQ). Their target market
is not bodybuilders/gym rats, but people with back problems. They pride
themselves on having no aerobics, no treadmills, no TVs, no music, no swimming
pool and no saunas. Just a change room with showers, training equipment and
drinking fountain. They have an onsite doctor who takes the back rehab
treatment using some pretty chunky lower back machines hooked up to computers.
The comment about curing back problems and the rest would really depend on
what is wrong with the back. But basically its the weight training and not
Kieser that is improving the back problems through lower back strength.
There are nearly 100 "facilities" through Europe. One in London...soon to be
two.
I already train using HIT so that wasn't a problem. What I did have a problem
with:
1) is that they insist that you use their training log-sheets
2) they insist on calling machines B6 and C1 instead of Leg press and
Pullover.
3) They wanted to design my programs for me, when I insisted I already had 10
years of accumulated experience of what works for me using HIT. At minimum
they wanted to check what I did. Having said this, I have done my own thing
without being bothered. (so far).
4) Their workouts are all 10 sets. Even in HIT this is stupid. Less might be
suitable for the routine or person or more might be required.
5) The routine I was given had no biceps work. Direct or indirect. Which
didn't further my confidence in the training staff.
6) All the training staff seem to have had training in how to use the
equipment. Some know their stuff, but others seem to be doing this as a part
time job while at University. Only a couple looked like they had any muscular
development. But again, the target market is lower back problems.
7) The atmosphere is sterile...not much fun. No music....sometimes as quiet
as library. As thr routines are brief, its usually fairly empty in there. I
got a little annoyed the last week when the training staff out numbered those
training and I got two pieces of unsolicited advice. In one case I had to
agree with the advice (I was cheating on wrist curls at the end.). But in the
other case a girl walked right up to me using the lateral raise machine, half
way through a set and stared at me. Before interrupting and giving advice. I
smiled, took her advice and didn't stop my set. I think she was bored.
8) The no warm up attitude. I like to stretch up first. For legs I do the
range of motion also. They don't agree with their being a need for this as
you warm up in the first few reps of a set. (Sets are don't slowly 4-2-4
cadence). I feel safer warming up with stretches first. If you are training
legs with cold hamstrings, good luck. Plus, muscles join other muscles. Hams
pull on glutes, pull on traps/kneck. I'd rather stretch my neck up to avoid
any injury.
9) No spandex gym bunnies.
10) The shower cubicles are metal cylinders and look like something out of a
concentration camp.
11) No free weights. Most of the MedX machines are really good, but I would
like the option of a few free weight exercises too.
Things I like:
1) No waiting for machines. Its pretty empty of people. There is two of most
things and people do one set per machine.
2) Some of the MedX equipment is great. Leg Press, Lateral Raise, Dip, Leg
curl and Leg ext, Pullover, bicep curl. Some was crap like Tricep machine.
Don't know what MedX were thinking. Its like a kickback. The weights go up
in smaller increments iif need be. You chose weight in 10-20 lbs increments
and then add more weight in 2lb increments on top.
3) Its open everyday, so I can go when I choose.
I'm loving it so far. But I'm expecting a showdown with the training staff
eventually. If I can't do my own thing, then its goodbye MedX Pullover and
back to a free weight gym.
Duane
Rob
like? Even if they are HIT based I think it would be interesting to see
which exercises they suggest and in what order.
"Duane" <dma...@SPAMMERIFFICpommyland.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a2en3c$3vb$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
Chris Brady
about twice a week.
I don't mind the regimentation of the log sheets, since my main
objective is a demonstably stronger back, and also general strength
since I've been weak and skinny since birth. I'm now 53, and never
felt stronger after 20 sessions.
The distraction of spandex bunnies I can do without, although a few
have been seen there recently. I don't like great sweaty, bodybuilders
grunting and groaning - quite off-putting really. And I don't like
pounding music because it is rarely in time with the rythm of the
exercises.
I do like the way the staff offer to help if you appear to be in
difficulties. They're a damn site more attentive than staff at other
gyms I've been too - including expensive training /sports complexes. I
think K. has just taken on a lot more new staff and they've been going
round talking to customers as part of their learning curve.
I don't like NOT warming up prior to training with heavy weights - in
fact I find that if I do one set of reps as per the log, I can do
another set immediately afterwards at an increased weight simply
because I've now warmed up!! At the end of a session I always go and
repeat whatever exercise I thought that I did not do to the maximum.
ONE BIG PROBLEM is that the staff apparently only believe that there
is ONE correct way to train - the K. way. Therefore its difficult
talking to them about alternatives.
I do have a problem with logging reps and times. Any ideas? I do the
slow 4-2-4 system aiming for 10 reps. I then log 100 against that
exercise. I haven't realy got to grips with the technique of timing
the exercises.
Also I have a problem with doing 10 reps without resting the weights
momentarily to let the lactic acid disperse. If I rest the weights
momentarily I can usually lift heavier weights for more reps. If I
don't then I find I can usually only do about 6 reps. What would be
best? The book says don't rest the weights!!
But I do LIKE the Medex machines especially H4/5/6/7/8 for wrists and
lower arms!!
And as for saunas etc., there is always Riros up in Kentish Town
afterwards, although its not the most friendly of places (both staff
and customers seem to have an attitude towards newcomers which I do
not like).
Chris B.
"Duane" <dma...@SPAMMERIFFICpommyland.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<a2en3c$3vb$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Duane
"Rob" <liftalotandrun@spam?wedon'tneednostinkin'sp...@aoill.com>
wrote in message
news:iNE28.2769$58.23...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
> Do you have any examples of what their lower-back-specific
programs look
> like? Even if they are HIT based I think it would be interesting
to see
> which exercises they suggest and in what order.
I don't know the details. But it appears to basically be strength
training. There are a couple of pretty chunky looking MedX machines
for working the lower back. These machines are hooked up to
computers that display graphs of some sort. I think they strack
strength and flexibility. Maybe it monitors strength at different
parts of the movement. Once the back is stronger I think they send
you out to use the standard MedX machines for an all over strength
training routine.
There is a MedX lower back machine that I used during my 3
compulsory personal training sessions. It was pretty good. Locks
the body into a position so you isolate the lower back better. Felt
it the next day. I wouldn't want to use it too often though. I
believe the lower back needs a fair amount of recovery and that
machine did hit the spot.
They have a website www.kieser-training.com.
Duane
"Chris Brady" <chris...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:51604466.02012...@posting.google.com...
> I too am using the London centre - and I travel in from West
London
> about twice a week.
I travel in from west London too. Can't wait for them to get the
west London facility organised. Any time I save on training, I blow
on travelling. Wasn't a problem when I worked in the city though.
> I don't mind the regimentation of the log sheets, since my main
> objective is a demonstably stronger back, and also general
strength
> since I've been weak and skinny since birth. I'm now 53, and never
> felt stronger after 20 sessions.
>
> The distraction of spandex bunnies I can do without, although a
few
> have been seen there recently.
I'll need training times!! (kidding).
>I don't like great sweaty, bodybuilders
> grunting and groaning - quite off-putting really. And I don't like
> pounding music because it is rarely in time with the rythm of the
> exercises.
I find the quiet a bit offputting. Like visiting a dentist. But I
can see how the atmosphere is better suited to the market they are
after. Which sounds like you. Wanting a stronger back and a
fitness regime. I'm more the odd one out there.
> I do like the way the staff offer to help if you appear to be in
> difficulties. They're a damn site more attentive than staff at
other
> gyms I've been too - including expensive training /sports
complexes. I
> think K. has just taken on a lot more new staff and they've been
going
> round talking to customers as part of their learning curve.
The staff are more attentive. It's more of a serious job for them.
Most gyms I used never had personal trainers. I did feel like one
trainer was bored and wanted to dish out some advice for something
to do. But ont he most part I have been left alone.
> I don't like NOT warming up prior to training with heavy weights -
in
> fact I find that if I do one set of reps as per the log, I can do
> another set immediately afterwards at an increased weight simply
> because I've now warmed up!! At the end of a session I always go
and
> repeat whatever exercise I thought that I did not do to the
maximum.
You have to do what you are confortable doing. I have a basic set
of stretches, nothing drastic or dangerous, to limber up a bit. I
don't want tight neck muscles while going all out on the leg press
etc. And I definitely don't want tight hamstrings.
> ONE BIG PROBLEM is that the staff apparently only believe that
there
> is ONE correct way to train - the K. way. Therefore its difficult
> talking to them about alternatives.
Yep. Even down to the machines being called B6 or A7. I ignore
that. I joked about this with friends. I kept calling them Kaiser,
the trainers the patrolling gestapo and those metal shower cylinders
had gas chamber overtones. I believe one motto I heard was, "We
give you what you need, not what you want."
They can show me how to use the equipment correctly. They can
comment on my form. But apart from that......*censored*. I've
trained for years and had good success from simliar methods to what
they use. I know what has worked for me. And I know what didn't
work for me in the realms of HIT.
> I do have a problem with logging reps and times. Any ideas? I do
the
> slow 4-2-4 system aiming for 10 reps. I then log 100 against that
> exercise. I haven't realy got to grips with the technique of
timing
> the exercises.
I'm still using the second hand on my watch when I can't see the
clock. Not exactly accurate, but good enough. I don't see anything
wrong with it. Just get a stop watch. Concentrate on your form and
your reps and don't worry about counting the reps. Its not really
here nor there at the end of the day. I'm pretty sure my rep
cadence isn't a perfect 4-2-4. Varies. Sometimes I go much slower,
like working shoulders, other times I went faster because I was
wimping out on the leg press. The next week I try to keep the form
good and not go to fast. I questioned the 2 second hold with the
trainers. It might good on some exercises, but not all. It's
almost a bit of rest. Would be harder if the rep was continuous
motion. Was like talking to a brick wall though. Like when I said
the tricep machine was crap. I use the calf machine to attach the
rope and do behind the neck cable tricep presses. I tried
explaining that exercises that stretch the muscle more tend to give
better results. Like the tricep press behind the head, versus the
kickback. But again...they only know what their learn from whatever
training camp they go on.
> Also I have a problem with doing 10 reps without resting the
weights
> momentarily to let the lactic acid disperse. If I rest the weights
> momentarily I can usually lift heavier weights for more reps. If I
> don't then I find I can usually only do about 6 reps. What would
be
> best? The book says don't rest the weights!!
I wouldn't rest the weights. If you can't do achieve the rep range
or time under tension you are after then consider lowering the
weights. You'll work back up again. The set is meant to be
continuous without rest. I train to failure. As MFW, and others,
point out this is a dubious requirement. Its worked for me. The
name of the game is to do more. More reps or more time under
tension and then more weight. So you try to push the your previous
boundary. I don't how fit or what condition you are in, so I'm not
reccomending you go balls-to-wall on all sets unless you're up to
it. (That's what an onsite doctor is good for.)
If you are interested, have a read of the HIT FAQ at
www.cyberpump.com . The FAQ will give you a quick crash course on
the concepts of HIT. The training methods Kieser use are of the same
vein. MFW is pretty anti-HIT, although they usually say its just
the HIT followers themselves. There are differing opinions on HIT
in strength training. That's fine. I think it works great. If so
inclined check out what MFW is into. Although I suspect you goals
are not to enter a powerlifting competition.
> But I do LIKE the Medex machines especially H4/5/6/7/8 for wrists
and
> lower arms!!
Until you said wrists I didn't have a clue what you were talking
about. I wish they would call the machines their proper names. The
wrist machine is pretty good. Maybe not ideal for my range of
motion on the wrist curl. It's a bit one-size-fits all. But it has
the supination and grip machines with weight resistence too. Plus
the small weight increments.
Chris Brady
http://www.cyberpump.com/training/hitfaq - which very much confirms
what I thought Kieser Training was really about. It explains things in
much better detail than their expensive book.
I'm still not sure how to log the 4-2-4 reps though. I mean if I do 84
kg reps x 9 do I put down 84 / 90 if the time actually taken took 100
seconds. Or do I put down 84 / 100? If the latter what do I go for
next time? Do I go for 86 / 90 - that is 90 seconds worth of 86 kgs or
100 seconds worth? I can count reps but counting timing is a tad more
difficult especially when you can't see the clock!! Is it right that
the no. of reps don't really count?
Also the book states that anyone training is limited by genetics, yet
when you see many body builders they have obviously gone well beyond
their genetic limits and I'm sure that they are not all on steroids or
human growth hormone!!
I'm actually having a problem with increasing upper body strength.
After 20 weeks of Kieser whilst I feel OK and moderately fit, I still
can't see a 6-pack, and certainly little development in the upper
body. My back appears stronger however!!
Being a vegetarian (of sorts) I'm wondering if my protein intake is
adequate for strength training. What about those protein powder drinks
as a supplement?
Finally would creatine help get those extra reps in at the end?
Chris B.
"Duane" <dma...@SPAMMERIFFICpommyland.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<a2fhn7$li7$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Duane
> http://www.cyberpump.com/training/hitfaq - which very much confirms
> what I thought Kieser Training was really about. It explains things
in
> much better detail than their expensive book.
Those towels are a rip off too!! £20!!! Their brand is not Nike!
> I'm still not sure how to log the 4-2-4 reps though. I mean if I do
84
> kg reps x 9 do I put down 84 / 90 if the time actually taken took
100
> seconds. Or do I put down 84 / 100? If the latter what do I go for
> next time? Do I go for 86 / 90 - that is 90 seconds worth of 86 kgs
or
> 100 seconds worth? I can count reps but counting timing is a tad
more
> difficult especially when you can't see the clock!! Is it right that
> the no. of reps don't really count?
Counting reps is fine. So is tracking the time for the set. You just
want to record something to give you idea of whether you have
improved. Once you have improved to a point, you increase the weight.
It might be reaching 8 reps. Or reaching 12 reps. Or exceeding 90
seconds on a set. Its all pretty rough. You try to do the set to the
appropraite rep cadence, but depending on the exercise and whether you
cheat a bit and go faster the rep times may vary. One week my rep may
take less 2 seconds on the leg press. The next week I made an effort
and tried to go slower, aiming at 4-2-4. The 2 second hold in the
middle is not really that vital either. I'm just doing it for
variety, (and to initially stop any staff bothering me.) Measuring
the time can free you up from rep counting and just concentrate on the
set. Just get a cheap stopwatch, or do what I do and use the second
hand on my watch. It's all rough.
> Also the book states that anyone training is limited by genetics,
yet
> when you see many body builders they have obviously gone well beyond
> their genetic limits and I'm sure that they are not all on steroids
or
> human growth hormone!!
Obvoiusly genes limit a lot of things. I don't think I'm getting
taller and my skin colour isn't go to turn dark. Metabolisms vary,
hormones, muscle lengths, muscle fiber compositions, skeletal frame,
length of limbs. They all vary. Huge bodybuilders are still
operating within their genetics. I wouldn't worry about that sort of
stuff. Its generally hard to tell what genes you've been delt. Just
aim to make progress and see what happens. It doesn't really matter
unless you plan on becoming Mr Olympia or a Powerlifting Champion.
> I'm actually having a problem with increasing upper body strength.
> After 20 weeks of Kieser whilst I feel OK and moderately fit, I
still
> can't see a 6-pack, and certainly little development in the upper
> body. My back appears stronger however!!
Firstly, seeing your 6-pack is not a strength training issue. Its a
bodyfat issue. You need a fairly low bodyfat level to see your
abdominals. I haven't seen mine since 1991. I miss them. (But
they're there, hiding underneath the fat.)
Its hard to make a comment on your upper body development. It could
be many things. I don't know how much stronger you are in each of the
upper body movements. If its just a little stronger in your back and
that's it, it is likely you wouldn't see much upper body change. A
tape measure comes in handy here for before/after progress
measurements. Just to help with any perceived or lack there-of gains.
Aim to get stronger, with good form, and there should a side effect of
size. It could be the routine isn't working, you aren't training that
hard, the routine has been so overused you've plateaued, neglecting
heavy leg training (like the leg press, not the leg extension and leg
curl), you aren't doing more reps, time under load and increasing the
weight, you're partying too hard and not getting regular sleep,
skipping meals, inadequate diet, too much external activities sapping
your recovery etc etc etc. Or maybe you are making progress. It
can be slow. If the weights are going up or your dimensions (other
than waist) are getting bigger, then something is happening.
> Being a vegetarian (of sorts) I'm wondering if my protein intake is
> adequate for strength training. What about those protein powder
drinks
> as a supplement?
I'm for the most part veg. Unless I'm some kind of genetic freak, I
think the quantities of protein required are somewhat......bullshit.
At least for me. I wouldn't waste your money on protein powders. Eat
yoghurt or drink milk (unless you are vegan, then maybe consider a
powder.). Don't go overboard. I just have a milk drink or yoghurt
mid morning. Soy milk on the breakfast. Lunch is anything from
sandwiches to pizza. Tea is pasta dishes and veg, rice dishes and
veg. I use to down supplements, powders, pills etc. But I've gained
while carrying more muscle, with less protein and no supplements. You
may vary for calories and protein requirements. But for starters,
just look how much you eat to maintain what you have now, maybe eat a
bit more. Don't overdo it though.
> Finally would creatine help get those extra reps in at the end?
Supposedly. I think that's the idea with creatine. And they say its
good for veg people as we don't get creatine supplemented from meat
sources. Creatine occurs naturally in the body. I wouldn't screw
with the body though. Save your money. Get the rest of the training
in order first. Regular Sleep, reasonable calories and a routine that
stimulates growth. Then maybe consider supplements like creatine to
get that little bit extra. (I still would put the money to better use
elsewhere.)
Have a read of some websites. Check out www.hardgainer.com aswell as
www.cyberpump.com. Plus there are many other sites about with
alternative info. www.thinkmuscle.com. www.drsquat.com. Krista's
site http://www.stumptuous.com. Training methodologies will vary,
but its still all about making progress from lifting weights.
Also, consider having a read or asking questions at the Garage Gym
forum: http://garagegym.cyberpump.com. Again, there are many other
forums for info.
Chris Brady
I saw the Kieser doc. for a check-up last night and he basically told
me to carry on doing the same programme - so I'll see what happens in
the next 15 weeks or so!! I don't think he was very impressed when I
inadvertantly left the HITFAQ document in his office and I had to go
back for it!!
But something must be motivating me 'cos I make the effort to go all
the way in from West London twice a week even on weekends, whereas the
on-site gym at work (complete with t.v. and pounding disco music) does
not hold much of attraction anymore and I haven't visited it for
months. I might go there again for cardiovascular exercises though on
the odd days between Kieser.
Like you I like the MedX machines but it is easy to get tuned to using
them and then find using another make somewhat difficult to adjust to.
Over the Xmas vacation we were staying in a holiday resort which had a
small 'fitness studio' with Cybex machines. They were as complex to
initially set up as the MedX ones at Kieser, and since the gym
instructor seemed to prefer flirting with his young assistant in the
office rather than going round helping the customers, I wasn't very
impressed. I mean they must have a complete turnover of new visitors
every few weeks and I would have thought that they could have ensured
that folk were using the equipment correctly rather than simply
letting themget on with it. I also got charged £10 a session for using
the equipment even though we were staying there. Personal tuition
(i.e. how to use the equipment properly) cost a massive £30 an hour
which I declined.
But its the all too common 'take it or leave it we don't really care'
attitude from the staff which deters me from going to disco-gyms or
sports complexes. So give me the helpful Kieser staff anyday - at
least they show an interest in what you are doing, and offer advice if
they think that you need it. So many hotels gyms, fitness studios and
sports complexes have staff who don't appear to give a damn what
you're doing. I think that's why I ended up hurting myself doing so
many free weight exercises at the gym at work. The on-site instructor
rarely questioned what I was doing, or ensured that what I was doing
was 'good form.'
Chris B.
"Duane" <dma...@SPAMMERIFFICpommyland.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<a34fih$7nt$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...