women -- what do you like in a man?

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roy

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97
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There have been some posts from women with the misguided idea that guys
want them to look like pipe cleaners. What about the other side of the
coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped? I know that my
girlfriend *puts up* with my working out, she is attracted to in-shape
guys, but the bodybuilding look turns her off (and most of her friends
too). Must've been my sterling personality that won her over. My sister
is also turned off by men with big muscles.

Most of us guys work out to look good (and to feel healthy too, that's
no BS), but are we turning you women off by getting muscles? Do you
want Harrison Ford or Dorian?

-- Roy

@aurora.eexi.gr Lysis

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97
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In article <332635...@well.com>, r...@well.com wrote:

>Most of us guys work out to look good (and to feel healthy too, that's
>no BS), but are we turning you women off by getting muscles? Do you
>want Harrison Ford or Dorian?

Can you spell "insecurity" ?

Jennifer R. Martin

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97
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OK! You asked for it!!

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, roy wrote:
> There have been some posts from women with the misguided idea that guys
> want them to look like pipe cleaners. What about the other side of the
> coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped? I know that my
> girlfriend *puts up* with my working out, she is attracted to in-shape
> guys, but the bodybuilding look turns her off (and most of her friends
> too). Must've been my sterling personality that won her over. My sister
> is also turned off by men with big muscles.

Well.... I can only speak with authority on my own preferences, but as
usual I will not refrain from speculating on everyone else's! :)

For me there is a very wide range of combinations of physical
characteristics that are attractive. These combinations include body
types from very lean (but not bony) to "average" to a little bit heavy
(as in carrying around some fat) to--yes!--muscular dudes.

Other features or "image" factors that are important are eyes (yes,
eyes!), general cleanliness (not being smelly is a big boon), and even a
pleasant voice. (Although there are far fewer men than women who have
voices that irritate me.)

However, just because there are physical characteristics that I notice
and find attractive or unattractive does not mean that those physical
characteristics are the most important thing about whether a person is
attractive or unattractive overall.

Other factors matter a lot more than physique, in other words. Sense of
humor, intelligence, etc. are really where it's at.


> Most of us guys work out to look good (and to feel healthy too, that's
> no BS), but are we turning you women off by getting muscles? Do you
> want Harrison Ford or Dorian?
>

> -- Roy

Well, here's the part where I speculate wildly about other people's
opinions and spout a lot of questionable generalizations. :)

I think many women ARE turned off by hugely muscular guys. Part of that
turn off is just the physical appearance being so different from the
typical regular guy. (I guess Freudians would say it's being so different
from the woman's *father*, who is the pattern women try to match in
selecting their male partners, and probably more like Ward Cleaver than
the incredible hulk.)

BUT! Another big part is the PERCEPTION that if the guy has big muscles,
he must have a small brain or be a big bully or just mean. I know that
lots of you are very smart guys, but this reaction is pretty ingrained in
a lot of people. (Even men... notice all those posts about guys who want
to go to the gym but are afraid the big men there will be unfriendly?)

However, these are just first impression type things, and I think most
women quickly get past that and then evaluate the person based on the
PERSON, not the body.

And then of course, they find out how convenient it can be friends with
someone who can bench press a refrigerator or squat a VW bug.

I don't find myself particularly attracted to Harrison Ford, and although
I've heard of Dorian Yates, I don't know what he looks like. But I'll
bet he's not a little fella. :)

So the thing is, we notice, but good or bad, we can get past the
appearance of your body and concentrate on more important things. When
you work out, do it for YOURSELF and your own health, well-being, and
ability, and not just to impress the chicks. (Chicks are more impressed
by a man being kind, funny, and self-assured.)

Was that long enough???? (sorry!)

--Jennifer

roy

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97
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(Lysis) wrote:
>
> In article <332635...@well.com>, r...@well.com wrote:
>
> >Most of us guys work out to look good (and to feel healthy too, that's
> >no BS), but are we turning you women off by getting muscles? Do you
> >want Harrison Ford or Dorian?
>
> Can you spell "insecurity" ?


Uh yea "Lysis", thanks for adding to the dialog but is that a vote for
Harrison or Dorian?

-- Roy

s...@geocities.com

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97
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In article <332635...@well.com>,
r...@well.com wrote:
>
> There have been some posts from women with the misguided idea that guys
> want them to look like pipe cleaners. What about the other side of the
> coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped? I know that my
> girlfriend *puts up* with my working out, she is attracted to in-shape
> guys, but the bodybuilding look turns her off (and most of her friends
> too). Must've been my sterling personality that won her over. My sister
> is also turned off by men with big muscles.
>
> Most of us guys work out to look good (and to feel healthy too, that's
> no BS), but are we turning you women off by getting muscles? Do you
> want Harrison Ford or Dorian?

I think that generally women connotate large muscles with
over-aggressiveness, violence etc. Atleast at the high school level,
girls are kinda scared off by really, REALLY muscular guys (i.e. pro
bodybuilders). However, most of the girls I know like a point in between
the hardcore bodybuilders and the so-called fluffboy "male models".

It's really annoying when people give you that look like "You mean you
have a brain in that skull? But I thought you had big arms too? Those two
can't go together!"

Personally, I think that different people have different tastes and you
can't generalize about them all. What I find beautiful in a woman might
not necessarily be the same as the next guy...

Sandeep De
The Power Factory
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4039/mainpage.htm

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet

Bob Johnson

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97
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Jennifer R. Martin wrote:
>
> OK! You asked for it!!
>
> On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, roy wrote:
> > There have been some posts from women with the misguided idea that guys
> > want them to look like pipe cleaners. What about the other side of the
> > coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped? I know that my
> > girlfriend *puts up* with my working out, she is attracted to in-shape
> > guys, but the bodybuilding look turns her off (and most of her friends
> > too). Must've been my sterling personality that won her over. My sister
> > is also turned off by men with big muscles.
>
> Well.... I can only speak with authority on my own preferences, but as
> usual I will not refrain from speculating on everyone else's! :)
>
> For me there is a very wide range of combinations of physical
> characteristics that are attractive. These combinations include body
> types from very lean (but not bony) to "average" to a little bit heavy
> (as in carrying around some fat) to--yes!--muscular dudes.
>
> Other features or "image" factors that are important are eyes (yes,
> eyes!), general cleanliness (not being smelly is a big boon), and even a
> pleasant voice. (Although there are far fewer men than women who have
> voices that irritate me.)
>
> However, just because there are physical characteristics that I notice
> and find attractive or unattractive does not mean that those physical
> characteristics are the most important thing about whether a person is
> attractive or unattractive overall.
>
> Other factors matter a lot more than physique, in other words. Sense of
> humor, intelligence, etc. are really where it's at.
>
> > Most of us guys work out to look good (and to feel healthy too, that's
> > no BS), but are we turning you women off by getting muscles? Do you
> > want Harrison Ford or Dorian?
> >

Oh, Jennifer, will you marry me?

---Bob

Jennifer R. Martin

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Mar 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/12/97
to

On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Bob Johnson wrote:

<Jennifer babbles at length about what attractiveness is>
<snip>


> >
> > So the thing is, we notice, but good or bad, we can get past the
> > appearance of your body and concentrate on more important things. When
> > you work out, do it for YOURSELF and your own health, well-being, and
> > ability, and not just to impress the chicks. (Chicks are more impressed
> > by a man being kind, funny, and self-assured.)
> >
> > Was that long enough???? (sorry!)
> >
> > --Jennifer
>
> Oh, Jennifer, will you marry me?
>
> ---Bob

:)

Can't. Sorry.

(Taken. (Permanently.))

But don't worry, babes like me are a dime a dozen (or less at Trader Joe's!).

Heh.

David Hayes

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
to

Jennifer R. Martin <jma...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.OSF.3.91.970312...@odin.cbu.edu>...

> So the thing is, we notice, but good or bad, we can get past the
> appearance of your body and concentrate on more important things. When
> you work out, do it for YOURSELF and your own health, well-being, and
> ability, and not just to impress the chicks. (Chicks are more impressed
> by a man being kind, funny, and self-assured.)
>
> Was that long enough???? (sorry!)
>
> --Jennifer

Wow! You're very good. I wish someone had told me all that many years ago;
I wouldn't be in half as much trouble now - but then again, I've always
been too daft to listen ;-)

Davie H

>

Jeremy Hohertz

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
to

roy <r...@well.com> wrote:

>There have been some posts from women with the misguided idea that guys
>want them to look like pipe cleaners. What about the other side of the
>coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped? I know that my
>girlfriend *puts up* with my working out, she is attracted to in-shape
>guys, but the bodybuilding look turns her off (and most of her friends
>too). Must've been my sterling personality that won her over. My sister
>is also turned off by men with big muscles.

>Most of us guys work out to look good (and to feel healthy too, that's


>no BS), but are we turning you women off by getting muscles? Do you
>want Harrison Ford or Dorian?

I've found women don't mind muscular guys. I mean, a few chicks I know
liked the Shannon Sharpe article in my MM2K as well as the natural
competitors in the All Natural: Muscular Development current issue.
But they don't like the Haney's, Yates, and Quinns - The guys who
juiice (Well, the IFBB admitted it in FLEX. : ) ). Maybe the women
know that the guys are juicing subconciously and that's why they don't
like them. I don't know. After all, they are UN-NATURALLY huge.

As well there's that whole myth about violence and big guys. (Football
players as well. Argh.... ). A stupid misconception I hope will be
cleared up soon.


internorth

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
to


roy <r...@well.com> wrote in article <332635...@well.com>...
> ... do women really want men who are super-pumped? ...>
> -- Roy
>

Totally turned off by pumped up men. TOTALLY!!!
FIT looking men are the most attractive but intelligence and presence are
number ONE.

Joroha

Brian Silver

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
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s...@geocities.com wrote:
>
[Snip]

> It's really annoying when people give you that look like "You mean you
> have a brain in that skull? But I thought you had big arms too? Those two
> can't go together!"

ROTFL.

How many times have we guys done this to women? (Well,
replace "arms" with some other appropriate body part ...)

Brian. "Not to mention Blonde Jokes ..."
--

There are too many automated email-address-mailing-list-makers
on the 'net these days. My email address is below, just remove the
extra spaces if you'd like to send me email. I am sorry my Reply-To
and From addresses are misleading. You probably understand.

Machine unreadable email address: silver @ zko.dec.com

april r. miller

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
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roy (r...@well.com) wrote:
: There have been some posts from women with the misguided idea that guys
: want them to look like pipe cleaners. What about the other side of the
: coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped? I know that my

: girlfriend *puts up* with my working out, she is attracted to in-shape
: guys, but the bodybuilding look turns her off (and most of her friends
: too). Must've been my sterling personality that won her over. My sister
: is also turned off by men with big muscles.
:
: Most of us guys work out to look good (and to feel healthy too, that's
: no BS), but are we turning you women off by getting muscles? Do you
: want Harrison Ford or Dorian?
:
: -- Roy
My first impression of a man that has a "bodybuilder" look is that he
is vain and elitest. That's just the shallow, 1st impression that I
try to ignore, but does play a part in who I'm interested in. I get
the impression that if a guy is too interested in his muscles and
how he looks that he won't have enough time to be interested in me.
I also don't want to be held to someone else's high standards...

I prefer an active guy with an athletic look. Bruises are cool,
especially if they are on the shins. (No scratches on the back,
I don't like to share ;-)

A skinny guy cuts it if he's active. I'm more interested in a guy
who plays football badly than in a guy who expertly watches.

Cute buns are ok, but I usually watch a guy who is coming toward me,
not walking away....


SandMan

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
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On 13 Mar 1997 15:21:37 GMT, a...@cyber2.servtech.com (april r. miller)
wrote:

>roy (r...@well.com) wrote:
>: There have been some posts from women with the misguided idea that guys
>: want them to look like pipe cleaners. What about the other side of the
>: coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped? I know that my
>: girlfriend *puts up* with my working out, she is attracted to in-shape
>: guys, but the bodybuilding look turns her off (and most of her friends
>: too). Must've been my sterling personality that won her over. My sister
>: is also turned off by men with big muscles.
>:
>: Most of us guys work out to look good (and to feel healthy too, that's
>: no BS), but are we turning you women off by getting muscles? Do you
>: want Harrison Ford or Dorian?
>:
>: -- Roy
>My first impression of a man that has a "bodybuilder" look is that he
>is vain and elitest. That's just the shallow, 1st impression that I
>try to ignore, but does play a part in who I'm interested in. I get
>the impression that if a guy is too interested in his muscles and
>how he looks that he won't have enough time to be interested in me.
>I also don't want to be held to someone else's high standards...
>
>I prefer an active guy with an athletic look. Bruises are cool,
>especially if they are on the shins. (No scratches on the back,
>I don't like to share ;-)
>

what about scars? what's your take on them?

just curious,

SandMan

Stella Hackell

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
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In article <332635...@well.com>, r...@well.com wrote:

>What about the other side of the
> coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped?

Some do, some don't. What do you think, all women like the same thing?


>
> Do you
> want Harrison Ford

Eww.

>or Dorian?

EWWWWWWW!!!!!!

--
Stella Hackell ste...@apple.com
She who succeeds in gaining the mastery of the bicycle will gain the
mastery of life.
--Frances E. Willard, _How I Learned to Ride the Bicycle_

junaid ahmed memon

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
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On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, SandMan wrote:

> On 13 Mar 1997 15:21:37 GMT, a...@cyber2.servtech.com (april r. miller)
> wrote:
>
> >roy (r...@well.com) wrote:
> >: There have been some posts from women with the misguided idea that guys
> >: want them to look like pipe cleaners. What about the other side of the
> >: coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped? I know that my
> >: girlfriend *puts up* with my working out, she is attracted to in-shape
> >: guys, but the bodybuilding look turns her off (and most of her friends
> >: too). Must've been my sterling personality that won her over. My sister
> >: is also turned off by men with big muscles.
> >:
> >: Most of us guys work out to look good (and to feel healthy too, that's
> >: no BS), but are we turning you women off by getting muscles? Do you
> >: want Harrison Ford or Dorian?
> >:
> >: -- Roy
> >My first impression of a man that has a "bodybuilder" look is that he
> >is vain and elitest. That's just the shallow, 1st impression that I

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
who exactly do you think do we get the big muscles for
JAM


Jennifer R. Martin

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
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On Wed, 12 Mar 1997 s...@geocities.com wrote:

<previous posts snipped>

> I think that generally women connotate large muscles with
> over-aggressiveness, violence etc. Atleast at the high school level,
> girls are kinda scared off by really, REALLY muscular guys (i.e. pro
> bodybuilders). However, most of the girls I know like a point in between
> the hardcore bodybuilders and the so-called fluffboy "male models".

That too.

Actually, it wouldn't even take a BIG guy to make me worry about what's
going to happen the first time he gets pissed off at me. Even though I've
never actually been in a physically abusive relationship, I still have
experienced this "I hope he doesn't hit me" feeling. Strange but true.

(Maybe it's just because I'm SO GOOD at really infuriating people. Hey,
it's a skill, why not take pride in it?)

So with a REALLY big guy, it's a proportionately bigger fear, I guess.
Some of you dudes could do some really serious damage without exerting
any effort at all!! So of course it can be intimidating to be standing
there in your shadow, wondering where the hell the sun went! :)


> It's really annoying when people give you that look like "You mean you
> have a brain in that skull? But I thought you had big arms too? Those two
> can't go together!"

<sheepish grin>

I admit it. I've had those thoughts!! Sorry! (I realized right away
that I was jumping to conclusions, though, if that helps to redeem me.)


> Personally, I think that different people have different tastes and you
> can't generalize about them all. What I find beautiful in a woman might
> not necessarily be the same as the next guy...

Yes, yes, very true.

Jennifer R. Martin

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
to

On 13 Mar 1997, april r. miller wrote:

> My first impression of a man that has a "bodybuilder" look is that he
> is vain and elitest. That's just the shallow, 1st impression that I

> try to ignore, but does play a part in who I'm interested in. I get
> the impression that if a guy is too interested in his muscles and
> how he looks that he won't have enough time to be interested in me.
> I also don't want to be held to someone else's high standards...

Yeah, me too!

I would feel pretty damn insecure hitting on anyone who was too, well,
developed.

Actually, I think I'd feel more than insecure about hitting on anyone.
I'd feel really guilty and worry about my husband seeing it. :)

(But you know what I mean.)

> I prefer an active guy with an athletic look. Bruises are cool,
> especially if they are on the shins. (No scratches on the back,
> I don't like to share ;-)

An excellent point. :)


> A skinny guy cuts it if he's active. I'm more interested in a guy
> who plays football badly than in a guy who expertly watches.
>
> Cute buns are ok, but I usually watch a guy who is coming toward me,
> not walking away....

Well, once he gets there you can always drop something a few feet away
for him to gallantly retrieve for you... =)

Jennifer

John King

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Mar 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/13/97
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april r. miller wrote:
> My first impression of a man that has a "bodybuilder" look is that he
> is vain and elitest. That's just the shallow, 1st impression that I
> try to ignore, but does play a part in who I'm interested in. I get
> the impression that if a guy is too interested in his muscles and
> how he looks that he won't have enough time to be interested in me.
> I also don't want to be held to someone else's high standards...

And should a man who encounters a woman that takes just as much care of
their body and appearence, you know, beautiful hair and face (with or
without makeup), perfect nose (real or surgically enhanced) perfect
smile (real or via cosmetic dentistry) and ample cleavege (real or
surgically enhanced), a flattering figure (with or without liposuction
or a tummy tuck). Well you get the picture. Let's face it, women are
every bit, if not more, vain as men. I find it funny that a woman would
peg a man who bodybuilds as vain and shallow while forgetting the
lengths women will go to to look 'beautiful'.

Just my 2 cents worth. (OK, just trying to keep the conversation lively
also)

---John.

april r. miller

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
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SandMan (gobr...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: On 13 Mar 1997 15:21:37 GMT, a...@cyber2.servtech.com (april r. miller)
: wrote:
:
: >I prefer an active guy with an athletic look. Bruises are cool,

: >especially if they are on the shins. (No scratches on the back,
: >I don't like to share ;-)
: >
:
: what about scars? what's your take on them?
:
: just curious,
:
: SandMan

Scars are cool, love to swap scar stories... and here's the one
where I stuck my hand in the alternater blades, and this is the
where I was holding a pane of glass and it broke in the middle....

Except scars on the back. They better be well healed. And I don't
want to hear about it.

April

Thierry Mann

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
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Bucknbonk wrote:
>
> x-no-archive: yes

>
> > I prefer an active guy with an athletic look. Bruises are cool,
> > especially if they are on the shins. (No scratches on the back,
> > I don't like to share ;-)
>
> And guys: Tatoos are a definite turn-off.
>
> Patti

The difference between people with tattoos and those without, is that
the people with tattoos don't care if you don't have one. Frankly babe,
I'm turned off by shallow people like yourself.

Guillermo Gonzalez

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

Hey, so she doesn't like tattoos. I personally don't like women with
black, twisted teeth.. hey, call me shallow... Its just a personal preference..

Guillermo

Jeff Amason

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
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Thierry Mann wrote:

>
> Bucknbonk wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I prefer an active guy with an athletic look. Bruises are cool,
> > > especially if they are on the shins. (No scratches on the back,
> > > I don't like to share ;-)
> >
> > And guys: Tatoos are a definite turn-off.
> >
> > Patti
>
> The difference between people with tattoos and those without, is that
> the people with tattoos don't care if you don't have one. Frankly babe,
> I'm turned off by shallow people like yourself.

I saw a funny bumper sticker the other day for one of the local tattoo
shops. It said:
"People with tattos cum in different colors." ;-)
--
_====__O__====_
====V(_)V====
Jeff Amason _|\U/|_
D/FW ASSAULT CREW

Chris Spil [N3FWR]

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
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In article <332915...@theriver.com>,

Thierry Mann <tm...@theriver.com> wrote:
>Bucknbonk wrote:

>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
>> > I prefer an active guy with an athletic look. Bruises are cool,
>> > especially if they are on the shins. (No scratches on the back,
>> > I don't like to share ;-)
>>
>> And guys: Tatoos are a definite turn-off.
>>
>> Patti

>The difference between people with tattoos and those without, is that
>the people with tattoos don't care if you don't have one. Frankly babe,
>I'm turned off by shallow people like yourself.

If you're going to make a statement like that, I think the shallow person
is actually you. She expressed a personal opinion based on aesthetic
preferences. Appreciating a tatoo or a certain look is clearly a matter of
style rather than an indication of a person's intelligence or depth
of character. While I agree with you that most people who don't have
tatoos do not care if the next person has one, why in the world are you
jumping to conclusions that she's shallow? It's all an issue of taste,
not intelligence.

Chris


--
Chris Spil
Univ. of Maryland

Kim Naru

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
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John King (john...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:

: ---John.


Well said John. The insecure people I meet have made the following
statments:


A well dressed beautiful girl with a nice figure


*****"Oh, she's stuck up look at here"


In shape , well dressed good looking male


**** "Yeah, he thinks he's hot shit"

The people who make these sorts of comments are insecure in
themselves and aren't able to distinguish between confidence
and arrogance. The people I have know who make comments like
that aren't intellectually stimulating either.

Yes I get off on looking at myself and saying, oh that looks good
or I need to hit this mucle group harder. That has kept me interested
in working out for 13+ years. Do I judge people
who don't workout? A resounding NO.

-kim

s...@geocities.com

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
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In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970312...@odin.cbu.edu>,

"Jennifer R. Martin" <jma...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote:
>
>

> BUT! Another big part is the PERCEPTION that if the guy has big muscles,
> he must have a small brain or be a big bully or just mean. I know that
> lots of you are very smart guys, but this reaction is pretty ingrained in
> a lot of people. (Even men... notice all those posts about guys who want
> to go to the gym but are afraid the big men there will be unfriendly?)
>
> However, these are just first impression type things, and I think most
> women quickly get past that and then evaluate the person based on the
> PERSON, not the body.

I agree with you on this, but I think that the initial first impression
never really recedes with some women.

A lot of the girls I meet for the first time are surprised as hell when
they realize a] I have an IQ bigger than my shoe size b] I am not
arrogant c] my pastimes don't include kicking small people / nuns /
poodles / children d] I can carry on a meaningful conversation without
having to start talking about "pumping iron". One girl whom I met a
little while back said that "I had wanted to talk to you before, but I
was afraid to approach you. You look so mean! blah blah blah blah
blah...but you're nothing like what I thought you would be....you're
actually a nice guy!"

Maybe this is something that is just intrinsic to high school girls -
that they judge people based on their appearance. Hopefully this is
something that people grow out of in time...because while I like the way
I look, I don't like the idea of scaring away potential girlfriends or
female friends simply based on the fact that I look the way I do. Being
built and ripped is nice but not if you scare away 99% of the people you
meet.

I dunno. I don't really care for stereotypes and am not about to change
who I am just so that I fit into one more conveniently and "please" the
prejudices of others. I think that one should be developed on many levels
(physically, intellectually, emotionally, socially). If people can't look
past one aspect of my being then I guess they're not worth my time. But I
think people (men/women included) still judge others largely by their
appearance more than their personalities/characters.

Thierry Mann

unread,
Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

{snippage]

> >>
> >> And guys: Tatoos are a definite turn-off.
> >>
> >> Patti

Me:

>
> >The difference between people with tattoos and those without, is that
> >the people with tattoos don't care if you don't have one. Frankly babe,
> >I'm turned off by shallow people like yourself.
>
> If you're going to make a statement like that, I think the shallow person
> is actually you. She expressed a personal opinion based on aesthetic
> preferences. Appreciating a tatoo or a certain look is clearly a matter of
> style rather than an indication of a person's intelligence or depth
> of character. While I agree with you that most people who don't have
> tatoos do not care if the next person has one, why in the world are you
> jumping to conclusions that she's shallow? It's all an issue of taste,
> not intelligence.
>
> Chris
>
> --
> Chris Spil
> Univ. of Maryland

Point well taken. Patti, I do not know if you are shallow. Hell, I don't
even know you.

Shallowness is not an indicator of intelligence. Many smart people are
vain and shallow.

Analyze this: and ladies, dyeing your hair blonde is a definite turnoff.

Now wouldn't I be shallow for saying such a thing? How would I know the
woman who dyes her hair blonde isn't my soulmate if I didn't take the
time to get to know her. I'm assuming being "turned off" by someone's
appearance means you do not want any further interaction with that
person.

This thread asked for womens' opinions, She gave one and I responded
with my own. That is all. I did not swear at her or bring any verbal
abuse. Let's let it flow.

Jennifer R. Martin

unread,
Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, John King wrote:

> april r. miller wrote:
> > My first impression of a man that has a "bodybuilder" look is that he
> > is vain and elitest. That's just the shallow, 1st impression that I
> > try to ignore, but does play a part in who I'm interested in. I get
> > the impression that if a guy is too interested in his muscles and
> > how he looks that he won't have enough time to be interested in me.
> > I also don't want to be held to someone else's high standards...
>
> And should a man who encounters a woman that takes just as much care of
> their body and appearence, you know, beautiful hair and face (with or
> without makeup), perfect nose (real or surgically enhanced) perfect
> smile (real or via cosmetic dentistry) and ample cleavege (real or
> surgically enhanced), a flattering figure (with or without liposuction
> or a tummy tuck). Well you get the picture. Let's face it, women are
> every bit, if not more, vain as men. I find it funny that a woman would
> peg a man who bodybuilds as vain and shallow while forgetting the
> lengths women will go to to look 'beautiful'.
>
> Just my 2 cents worth. (OK, just trying to keep the conversation lively
> also)
>
> ---John.

Hey, we never said we didn't think women could be just as shallow. :)

(man, try and diagram that sentence!)

But the judgement that someone is shallow is itself superficial and
basically silly. (I admit, though, that I am on occasion very silly and
superficial myself. Especially the silly part.)

Super-FISH-ally yours,
Jennifer

(who just bought an 8-pack of Starkist tuna at Sam's!!)

Guillermo Gonzalez

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:27:55 -0700, Thierry Mann <tm...@theriver.com> wrote:

>
>
>Point well taken. Patti, I do not know if you are shallow. Hell, I don't
>even know you.
>
>Shallowness is not an indicator of intelligence. Many smart people are
>vain and shallow.
>
>Analyze this: and ladies, dyeing your hair blonde is a definite turnoff.
>
>Now wouldn't I be shallow for saying such a thing?

No.

Don't you feel better now?


>This thread asked for womens' opinions, She gave one and I responded
>with my own. That is all. I did not swear at her or bring any verbal
>abuse. Let's let it flow.

I think calling someone shallow is something of a personal insult, but then
again, thats just me...

Guillermo


Robert Duncan

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

Jennifer R. Martin wrote:
>
> Super-FISH-ally yours,
> Jennifer
>
> (who just bought an 8-pack of Starkist tuna at Sam's!!) ^^^^^^

You are now considered a certified Studette (sp?) This NG has the
coooolest female members on the net.

Rob

Mike Davis

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Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

Jennifer R. Martin <jma...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.OSF.3.91.970312...@odin.cbu.edu>...

> However, just because there are physical characteristics that I notice
> and find attractive or unattractive does not mean that those physical
> characteristics are the most important thing about whether a person is
> attractive or unattractive overall.

Maybe for women, but not for men. Men are interested in womens looks,
*ANY* man here who says differently is simply lying to the news group, and
lying to them selves. I have no problem in telling it the way it really is.
--
____________________________________________________
Nizoral Ordering Page http://www.inetdirect.com/Nizoral/main.htm
For Nizoral, Bodybuilding, Fun, Games and Prizes!

Start w/ 500mg / test week + 250mg deca + 100mg d-bol
eat big 6-8 meals a day calorie dense high protein high carb moderate fats.
you asked i answered. as animals vary so will results. - Christopher L.
Connell


Mike Davis

unread,
Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

s...@geocities.com wrote in article <8582097...@dejanews.com>...

> I think that generally women connotate large muscles with
> over-aggressiveness, violence etc. Atleast at the high school level,
> girls are kinda scared off by really, REALLY muscular guys (i.e. pro
> bodybuilders). However, most of the girls I know like a point in between
> the hardcore bodybuilders and the so-called fluffboy "male models".

Teen girls like skinny teen boys. Talking about women and men, yes the
women like a mucular body, chisled abs, wide shoulders, chest like plates
of armour and a firm monkey but. These men are pretty rare so women will
sit and scream on a 'hot hunks' Jenny Jones show. Little did I know how
hard it would be to become one of these hunks. "Train to failure, take
Phosphagen Vanadyl and Whey, and keep reading mm2k!". Man was I ever
fantasy prone.. umm.. whoops.. I'm rambling...



> Personally, I think that different people have different tastes and you
> can't generalize about them all. What I find beautiful in a woman might
> not necessarily be the same as the next guy...

Sure you can generalize them. Men are interested in a womans looks. That's
something that all men have in common.

Mike Davis

unread,
Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

april r. miller <a...@cyber2.servtech.com> wrote in article

> My first impression of a man that has a "bodybuilder" look is that he
> is vain and elitest.

That's what he is. The chances are he's not very stable either, whether it
be financially, emotionaly etc. Keep in mind that we are on the internet
which is a symbol of some degree of intelligence. These guys wouldn't waste
their precious time on a Nerd Hobby(tm). People on the i-net are in the
minority. And the majority of people on the i-net seem to all be from well
to do family's and are in school or have secure futures etc. So I can see
how the opinion towards relationships, racism, etc. is one sided. In the
real world, opinions would differ greatly then that of the news groups.

>That's just the shallow, 1st impression that I
> try to ignore, but does play a part in who I'm interested in. I get
> the impression that if a guy is too interested in his muscles and
> how he looks that he won't have enough time to be interested in me.
> I also don't want to be held to someone else's high standards...

All those guys think their King Shit(tm). Most guys that don't work out
think their King Shit(tm). Take a look at this ng. There's lots of guys in
here who think they're a Walking Elmo Doll(tm).

Jason W. Burnell

unread,
Mar 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/14/97
to

Mike Davis wrote:
>
> s...@geocities.com wrote in article <8582097...@dejanews.com>...
>
> > I think that generally women connotate large muscles with
> > over-aggressiveness, violence etc. Atleast at the high school level,
> > girls are kinda scared off by really, REALLY muscular guys (i.e. pro
> > bodybuilders). However, most of the girls I know like a point in between
> > the hardcore bodybuilders and the so-called fluffboy "male models".
>
> Teen girls like skinny teen boys. Talking about women and men, yes the
> women like a mucular body, chisled abs, wide shoulders, chest like plates
> of armour and a firm monkey but. These men are pretty rare so women will
> sit and scream on a 'hot hunks' Jenny Jones show. Little did I know how
> hard it would be to become one of these hunks. "Train to failure, take
> Phosphagen Vanadyl and Whey, and keep reading mm2k!". Man was I ever
> fantasy prone.. umm.. whoops.. I'm rambling...
>
> > Personally, I think that different people have different tastes and you
> > can't generalize about them all. What I find beautiful in a woman might
> > not necessarily be the same as the next guy...
>
> Sure you can generalize them. Men are interested in a womans looks. That's
> something that all men have in common.
> --
> ____________________________________________________
> Nizoral Ordering Page http://www.inetdirect.com/Nizoral/main.htm
> For Nizoral, Bodybuilding, Fun, Games and Prizes!
>
> Start w/ 500mg / test week + 250mg deca + 100mg d-bol
> eat big 6-8 meals a day calorie dense high protein high carb moderate fats.
> you asked i answered. as animals vary so will results. - Christopher L.
> Connell
Guys..........I've followed this thred silently for a few days. Ya
wanna know what women really like............SIMPLE. ME !!!! Think about
it: TUNA, CHALK, and a BIG SQUAT !!!!!!!! Modesty, charm (ahem) and
that magnetic DEEPSQUATTER persona.....and to top it off ......I've got
TWO BLENDERS........oh, they're lining up now..........

editors note: please notice tongue planted firmly in cheek.....no, not
THAT cheek....yuuuck.......
--
Jason Burnell - http://home.jps.net/cburnell/deepsquatter.htm
D/FW ASSAULT CREW - West Coast Chapter

THE OAKLAND RAIDERS SHALL RETURN TO THEIR RIGHTFUL PLACE ATOP THE NFL !

Mike Davis

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Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97
to


Chris Spil [N3FWR] <c...@scdh14.umd.edu> wrote in article
<5gbrrl$n...@scdh14.umd.edu>...


> Appreciating a tatoo or a certain look is clearly a matter of
> style rather than an indication of a person's intelligence or depth
> of character.

That's true, but it can give you evidence towards a persons personality
and character.

Mike Davis

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Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97
to

John King <john...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<3328D1...@worldnet.att.net>...

> Well you get the picture. Let's face it, women are
> every bit, if not more, vain as men.

I beleive women go through the bother becuase they must and it is expected
of them by society. Just like society expects a business man to wear a
suit, society expects women to wear make-up and show more skin. I don't
think it means their vain, just going with the mainstreem flow and doing
what all the other women do.

> I find it funny that a woman would
> peg a man who bodybuilds as vain and shallow while forgetting the
> lengths women will go to to look 'beautiful'.

Here is the way it is.

An above physically attractive man is rare. Physically attractive women are
everywhere. Men are cocky S.O.B's and think they're king shit. When that
cocky S.O.B. catches women glancing at his body, it hightens his cockyness,
and he becomes a Stuck Up Ass Hole That Thinks He's Hot Shit(tm). I've know
a few of these guys, and there are these guys right here on the ng. They
like to mask it by calling themselves 'confident'. There are women like
this also, but not to the extent as men.

Neal Glover

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Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97
to


Mike Davis <m...@inetdirect.com> wrote in

> Men are cocky S.O.B's and think they're king shit. When
> that cocky S.O.B. catches women glancing at his body, it
> hightens his cockyness, and he becomes a Stuck Up Ass
> Hole That Thinks He's Hot Shit(tm). I've know a few of these
> guys, and there are these guys right here on the ng. They
> like to mask it by calling themselves 'confident'.

Although all men show these traits at times they aren't so broadly or
frequently displayed that they could be used to describe men in general.
Particular individuals may act this way frequently, but not a large
proportion of us (men).

No offence meant, but you've repeatedly made very broad, extreme,
statements like those above. You also seem to express everything as
absolutes on this subject. The impression I get is that you have some
serious personal issues to deal with. We all have problems and
insecurities, but the way to overcome them isn't to retreat from them,
blame others, or lash out in this way. The solution lies within, but it
can't be found until you recognize the problem lies there too.

Neal

Mr. Sunshine

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Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97
to

> A lot of the girls I meet for the first time are surprised as hell when
> they realize a] I have an IQ bigger than my shoe size b] I am not
> arrogant c] my pastimes don't include kicking small people / nuns /
> poodles / children d] I can carry on a meaningful conversation without
> having to start talking about "pumping iron". One girl whom I met a
> little while back said that "I had wanted to talk to you before, but I
> was afraid to approach you. You look so mean! blah blah blah blah
> blah...but you're nothing like what I thought you would be....you're
> actually a nice guy!"

Gawd, does that sound familiar.



> Maybe this is something that is just intrinsic to high school girls -

Nope. Women in general.

--
Steve Townsley // stow...@apc.net
D/FW Assault Crew - Orange County Branch
ACE Certified Personal Trainer

"If you wanna live life on your own terms,
you gotta be willin' to crash and burn." - Motley Crue

Mr. Sunshine

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Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97
to

In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.97031...@odin.cbu.edu>,

"Jennifer R. Martin" <jma...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote:

> Super-FISH-ally yours,
> Jennifer
>
> (who just bought an 8-pack of Starkist tuna at Sam's!!)

TUNA SHAKE, BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8^)

No offense meant by using the word 'baby.' It's just an expression.

Krista Scott

unread,
Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97
to


Mr. Sunshine <stow...@apc.net> wrote in article
<stownsley-140...@ppp-207-113-176-121-anaheim.apc.net>...


> In article <8583646...@dejanews.com>, s...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> > A lot of the girls I meet for the first time are surprised as hell when
> > they realize a] I have an IQ bigger than my shoe size b] I am not
> > arrogant c] my pastimes don't include kicking small people / nuns /
> > poodles / children d] I can carry on a meaningful conversation without
> > having to start talking about "pumping iron". One girl whom I met a
> > little while back said that "I had wanted to talk to you before, but I
> > was afraid to approach you. You look so mean! blah blah blah blah
> > blah...but you're nothing like what I thought you would be....you're
> > actually a nice guy!"
>
> Gawd, does that sound familiar.
>
> > Maybe this is something that is just intrinsic to high school girls -
>
> Nope. Women in general.
>

> --
> Steve Townsley // stow...@apc.net
> D/FW Assault Crew - Orange County Branch
> ACE Certified Personal Trainer
>

Snort. Make that "people in general". Too many folks in this world are
snap appearance-judgers. And I'm not talking about male-female relations,
but about how people treat you in stores, restaurants, public venues.
You'd think in the urban centre which I inhabit people would be a little
more jaded about weird-looking people of all kinds, but I guess not.
Btw, my favourite person in my old gym was the scariest-looking guy. But
he was the most polite about machine-sharing.

Krista

Angela Pahlow

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Mar 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/15/97
to

On 15 Mar 97 09:53:13 GMT, stow...@apc.net (Mr. Sunshine) wrote:

>In article <8583646...@dejanews.com>, s...@geocities.com wrote:
>
>> A lot of the girls I meet for the first time are surprised as hell when
>> they realize a] I have an IQ bigger than my shoe size b] I am not
>> arrogant c] my pastimes don't include kicking small people / nuns /
>> poodles / children d] I can carry on a meaningful conversation without
>> having to start talking about "pumping iron". One girl whom I met a
>> little while back said that "I had wanted to talk to you before, but I
>> was afraid to approach you. You look so mean! blah blah blah blah
>> blah...but you're nothing like what I thought you would be....you're
>> actually a nice guy!"
>
>Gawd, does that sound familiar.
>
>> Maybe this is something that is just intrinsic to high school girls -
>
>Nope. Women in general.

Reason #237 why I have so few female friends. There are a *few*
exceptions, tho.
Angela

>
>--
>Steve Townsley // stow...@apc.net
>D/FW Assault Crew - Orange County Branch
>ACE Certified Personal Trainer
>

Ricky Medel

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
to

Mike Davis wrote:
>
> Jennifer R. Martin <jma...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote in article
> <Pine.OSF.3.91.970312...@odin.cbu.edu>...
> > However, just because there are physical characteristics that I notice
> > and find attractive or unattractive does not mean that those physical
> > characteristics are the most important thing about whether a person is
> > attractive or unattractive overall.
>
> Maybe for women, but not for men. Men are interested in womens looks,
> *ANY* man here who says differently is simply lying to the news group, and
> lying to them selves. I have no problem in telling it the way it really is.

Not all people are that "shallow" (that seems to be the popular word)
about choosing their mate. Not saying that I am not shallow, just that
there are people who are not. That is completely dependent on a persons
perticular upbringing.
--
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Ricky Medel~~joker139
rm...@txdirect.net

"The goal of science is to build better mousetraps.
The goal of nature is to build better mice."

T. David Bamford

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
to

stow...@apc.net (Mr. Sunshine) wrote:

>> A lot of the girls I meet for the first time are surprised as hell when
>> they realize a] I have an IQ bigger than my shoe size b] I am not
>> arrogant c] my pastimes don't include kicking small people / nuns /
>> poodles / children d] I can carry on a meaningful conversation without
>> having to start talking about "pumping iron". One girl whom I met a
>> little while back said that "I had wanted to talk to you before, but I
>> was afraid to approach you. You look so mean! blah blah blah blah
>> blah...but you're nothing like what I thought you would be....you're
>> actually a nice guy!"

>Gawd, does that sound familiar.
>
>> Maybe this is something that is just intrinsic to high school girls -

>Nope. Women in general.

I'll vouch for this. Though I am quiet and polite, I scare the
living shit out of women. I see it in their eyes. Many have told me
this once they get to know me and are somewhat embarrassed when they
find me to be a harmless teddy bear. I'm 5' 11" and 270 lbs. if that
matters...

T. David Bamford

Mike Davis

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
to

Neal Glover <nealg...@uky.campus.mci.net> wrote in article
<01bc30f1$b22ee2c0$909c...@campus.mci.net>...

> Although all men show these traits at times they aren't so broadly or
> frequently displayed that they could be used to describe men in general.

In my first line I *meant* what you said above, most men show those
triats. I then spoke of the man who is better looking\more muscular then
the average man. I say the majority of these guys have their nose in the
air.

> Particular individuals may act this way frequently, but not a large
> proportion of us (men).

A large proportion of 'us' men do NOT have unusual amounts of muscle on
us, therefore you cannot say how cocky men would act if they did.

I'm not talking about computer nerds, I'm talking about guys that have an
un-natural amount of muscle and are 'studs'. Many of these guys are
bouncers, have had 50 'girlfriends', and have cars with tinted windows with
'booming systems'. Neal, go ahead and hang out with these guys and see for
yourself if they're stuck up.

> No offence meant, but you've repeatedly made very broad, extreme,
> statements like those above.

I say the majority of men that have unusual muscle mass are stuck up. You
call this very broad and extreem. I call this being real and speaking the
truth.

>You also seem to express everything as
> absolutes on this subject. The impression I get is that you have some
> serious personal issues to deal with. We all have problems and
> insecurities, but the way to overcome them isn't to retreat from them,
> blame others, or lash out in this way. The solution lies within, but it
> can't be found until you recognize the problem lies there too.

I fully understand your way of thinking and a totally understand why you
have said the above. Neal, most people on the ng's and Internet share your
way of thinking. There are few (on the ng's) that understand mine. You may
not understand this becuase you may be from a 'higher status class', in a
College, from a good family, educated well etc. Types as yourself (and yes
you are a type - everyone is, espesially in the U.S.) probably have never
been personally exposed to the variety the world has to offer. Like lower
status induviduals, very high status groups, people on welfare, blue collar
workers, high school drop out's, drug users, immagrants, minority's, gang
members, gays, low income trailer trash, Christian church fanatics etc.
etc..

#Here's some more of my 'extreem' thinking for you to laugh at...
#Please read, beleive me you'll get a kick out of this.

Let me first tell you that YOU (and I) are in the *minority*. I think the
last figure I've heard was %20 of people in America have access to the
internet. That figure represents a MINORITY. To be on the internet, you
need a computer. A computer is expensive. A household that can financially
offord a computer is financially well to do. They are not struggling blue
collar homes trying to keep out of debt. An Internet connection can also be
found in a College or University. This represents a higher level of
education and a higher status class. Then there's work. A connection
established through work represents a good job. A janitor or garbage man
doesn't have access to the internet through work. These facts represent a
higher status class that use the internet and especially the news groups
becuase to even use the net you most know how to work the software etc.
This takes learning and time, intelligent people have no problem learning
something new.

I spent $1600 on this computer, and my status class is 'poverty'. It was
only luck that I got the money to buy this computer. I DO NOT represent the
average Internet user. I am not in the same status class as most of the
people here. I'm a person that is on the net, that 'shouldn't' be. I find
that the most intelligent of the net hangs out on the news groups. You guys
(oh no) are soquick to say exactly what you said "It doesn't mean *all* of
us/them/people".
I mean do I really have to start every sentence by 'IMHO'. That should go
without saying. Do I always have to say 'The majority'. Jeeze, don't you
understand what I'm trying to say? I always have to sit here, think about
my sentence grammar, spelling, vocabulary, and what I'm saying. I must do
these things to be taken somewhat seriously. It comes natural to people
such as yourself, for you represent the majority of the people on the
Internet. I represent the minority of people on the internet.

People fall into certain catagory's. You fall into the standard internet
newsgroup .edu good family and future catagory. In the real world, only %50
of people vote. In the internet world, %99 of people vote. In the real
world, there is a divorse rate of about %50. In the internet world,
everyone has a mom and dad. I'm trying to say that you are living in a
bubble. In the real world there are limiting factors that make things
*very* hard to accomplish. One is money. If a ghetto child wanted to start
a muscle magazine, he wouldn't be able to do it becuase everyone he knows
is poor, and becuase he was born with too many brain chromizones missing
which resulted in poor intelligence. That poor intelligence limits him from
bieng a doctor, lawyer, bieng well spoken etc, and getting a good job. He
will end up bieng on wellfair or doing a minimum wage paying job. These are
things the vast majority of your status class don't understand. You guys
think that you can get anything you want if you just try. That may be how
it is for YOU Mr. .edu, but it's not like that for everyone else. You
people have trouble understanding because you have grown up in bubbles.

I understand why you think the way you do. You cannot understand *why* I
think the way I do. You can deny it all you want, as to where I can admit
it when someone or myself is right or wrong. You do not represnt the
majority of people. On the internet you do, but not in the real world I
promise you this. You said the answer lies within. Sometimes it doesn't.
Sometimes these things are out of our control. These things I do not expect
you to understand becuase you already have everything and know nothing
else.

Chris Spil [N3FWR]

unread,
Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
to

In article <01bc3260$bfed9940$3e44...@cyrix.inetdirect.com>,
Mike Davis <m...@inetdirect.com> wrote:

>To be on the internet, you
>need a computer. A computer is expensive.

Two of my friends got their PC's thru newspaper ads for $300 each..
(386's but they work just fine)

> I spent $1600 on this computer, and my status class is 'poverty'.

>In the real world there are limiting factors that make things


>*very* hard to accomplish. One is money. If a ghetto child wanted to start
>a muscle magazine, he wouldn't be able to do it becuase everyone he knows
>is poor, and becuase he was born with too many brain chromizones missing
>which resulted in poor intelligence. That poor intelligence limits him from
>bieng a doctor, lawyer, bieng well spoken etc, and getting a good job.

Alright, you definitely are telling the truth, life is indeed unfair but
at the same time, a right frame of mind will take you far, very far.
My best friend's family immigrated to the U.S. 10 years ago with almost
zero money and are now pretty well off (10 years of hard _and_ smart
work). But it goes beyond that; his family has earned the respect of all
the people and the community around him, to the point that they can now
look back and feel a great sense of accomplishment, far more than one
would have ever imagined. That's my definition of happiness.

Jennifer R. Martin

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
to

On 14 Mar 1997, Mike Davis wrote:

> Jennifer R. Martin <jma...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote in article
> <Pine.OSF.3.91.970312...@odin.cbu.edu>...
> > However, just because there are physical characteristics that I notice
> > and find attractive or unattractive does not mean that those physical
> > characteristics are the most important thing about whether a person is
> > attractive or unattractive overall.
>
> Maybe for women, but not for men. Men are interested in womens looks,
> *ANY* man here who says differently is simply lying to the news group, and
> lying to them selves. I have no problem in telling it the way it really is.

> --

It sounds to me like you're saying that men don't ignore women's looks.

That's OK. Why lie about it?

Women don't ignore men's looks either.

(well, I guess blind people ignore everyone's looks... :) )

I just meant that whatever stuff you see first--good or bad--isn't the ONLY
thing you care about.

Are you saying that for men the stuff they see IS the only thing they
care about?

OK, now THAT I would expect guys to lie about...

:)

Jennifer
(Now... official MFW Studette!!)

T

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
to

Don't worry about what they like, it's what they dislike that'll get you in
trouble.

Mr. Sunshine <stow...@apc.net> wrote in article

<stownsley-130...@ppp-207-113-176-74-anaheim.apc.net>...


> In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.97031...@odin.cbu.edu>,
> "Jennifer R. Martin" <jma...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Super-FISH-ally yours,
> > Jennifer
> >
> > (who just bought an 8-pack of Starkist tuna at Sam's!!)
>
> TUNA SHAKE, BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8^)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No offense meant by using the word 'baby.' It's just an expression.
>

Jennifer R. Martin

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
to

On 15 Mar 1997, Mr. Sunshine wrote:

> In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.97031...@odin.cbu.edu>,
> "Jennifer R. Martin" <jma...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Super-FISH-ally yours,
> > Jennifer
> >
> > (who just bought an 8-pack of Starkist tuna at Sam's!!)
>
> TUNA SHAKE, BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8^)


HELL, YEAH!!!!!!

> No offense meant by using the word 'baby.' It's just an expression.

Ohhhh, suuuuuure.... You were calling me immature, weren't you??!!??

Well, that's OK, I am just a baby in the world of the TUNA SHAKE!! I
haven't had a tuna shake YET... But... The blender and the cans of tuna
seem to be migrating closer and closer to one another...

:-D

Hey... does this look anything like a tuna? }==D

Or maybe... >++8

or what about... oh, never mind.

Jennifer

Jennifer R. Martin

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
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On Fri, 14 Mar 1997, Jason W. Burnell wrote:

> Guys..........I've followed this thred silently for a few days. Ya
> wanna know what women really like............SIMPLE. ME !!!! Think about
> it: TUNA, CHALK, and a BIG SQUAT !!!!!!!! Modesty, charm (ahem) and
> that magnetic DEEPSQUATTER persona.....and to top it off ......I've got
> TWO BLENDERS........oh, they're lining up now..........


Two blenders???

A man who can work multiple appliances!? And he always chalks, has 365
ways to eat tuna, squats like a dream....

TALK TO ME, BABY!!


> editors note: please notice tongue planted firmly in cheek.....no, not
> THAT cheek....yuuuck.......

Eyew!! And you were doing so well up 'til then...

Jennifer R. Martin

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
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On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 s...@geocities.com wrote:

> In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.970312...@odin.cbu.edu>,


> > However, these are just first impression type things, and I think most
> > women quickly get past that and then evaluate the person based on the
> > PERSON, not the body.
>
> I agree with you on this, but I think that the initial first impression
> never really recedes with some women.

Unfortunately, this is true.

> A lot of the girls I meet for the first time are surprised as hell when
> they realize a] I have an IQ bigger than my shoe size b] I am not
> arrogant c] my pastimes don't include kicking small people / nuns /
> poodles / children d] I can carry on a meaningful conversation without

Just a point of curiosity here... when you said your "pastimes don't
include kicking small..." does the "small" describe just the people, or
also the nuns, poodles and children? This is crucial to my
interpretation of the passage.

;)

> having to start talking about "pumping iron". One girl whom I met a
> little while back said that "I had wanted to talk to you before, but I
> was afraid to approach you. You look so mean! blah blah blah blah
> blah...but you're nothing like what I thought you would be....you're
> actually a nice guy!"
>

> Maybe this is something that is just intrinsic to high school girls -

> that they judge people based on their appearance. Hopefully this is
> something that people grow out of in time...because while I like the way
> I look, I don't like the idea of scaring away potential girlfriends or
> female friends simply based on the fact that I look the way I do. Being
> built and ripped is nice but not if you scare away 99% of the people you
> meet.

Well, they might grow out of it, they might not.

If the 1% you are left with don't meet with your approval, then just go
meet more! Or... take a second look at the people in the first 1%. They
might look better the second time. :)

> I dunno. I don't really care for stereotypes and am not about to change
> who I am just so that I fit into one more conveniently and "please" the
> prejudices of others. I think that one should be developed on many levels
> (physically, intellectually, emotionally, socially). If people can't look
> past one aspect of my being then I guess they're not worth my time. But I
> think people (men/women included) still judge others largely by their
> appearance more than their personalities/characters.

ROCK ON, YOUNG MUSCLED ONE!

As Popeye the Sailor-Man usedta say, "I yam what I yam--ugh ugh ugh ughkk!!"

And of course, his self-acceptance rendered him irresistible to women.
Or at least Olive Oyl.

Jennifer

Jennifer R. Martin

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
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On 14 Mar 1997, Mike Davis wrote:

> s...@geocities.com wrote in article <8582097...@dejanews.com>...
>
> > I think that generally women connotate large muscles with
> > over-aggressiveness, violence etc. Atleast at the high school level,
> > girls are kinda scared off by really, REALLY muscular guys (i.e. pro
> > bodybuilders). However, most of the girls I know like a point in between
> > the hardcore bodybuilders and the so-called fluffboy "male models".
>
> Teen girls like skinny teen boys. Talking about women and men, yes the
> women like a mucular body, chisled abs, wide shoulders, chest like plates
> of armour and a firm monkey but. These men are pretty rare so women will
> sit and scream on a 'hot hunks' Jenny Jones show. Little did I know how
> hard it would be to become one of these hunks. "Train to failure, take
> Phosphagen Vanadyl and Whey, and keep reading mm2k!". Man was I ever
> fantasy prone.. umm.. whoops.. I'm rambling...

I occasionally chance upon these shows of hers, and I find them really
embarrassing. And these get broadcast to the whole planet. :(

Anyway, these poor guys are exploited terribly. But maybe they like it
that way, or even think they are exploiting the audience and the TV
people into giving them money for looking like a stud muffin.

So.... have you become "one of these hunks" yet? You know you've made it
as a male slut when you show up on the Jenny Jones show.

Best of luck.

:)


> > Personally, I think that different people have different tastes and you
> > can't generalize about them all. What I find beautiful in a woman might
> > not necessarily be the same as the next guy...
>
> Sure you can generalize them. Men are interested in a womans looks. That's
> something that all men have in common.

So I guess maybe a summary of our discussion so far might be...

The difference between regular guys and body builders is that regular guys
are interested in a woman's looks, which annoys the woman; body builders
are more interested in their OWN looks, which REALLY annoys the woman!

Hm...

Jennifer

Jennifer R. Martin

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
to

On 14 Mar 1997, Mike Davis wrote:

> april r. miller <a...@cyber2.servtech.com> wrote in article
>
> > My first impression of a man that has a "bodybuilder" look is that he
> > is vain and elitest.
>
> That's what he is. The chances are he's not very stable either, whether it
> be financially, emotionaly etc. Keep in mind that we are on the internet
> which is a symbol of some degree of intelligence. These guys wouldn't waste
> their precious time on a Nerd Hobby(tm). People on the i-net are in the
> minority. And the majority of people on the i-net seem to all be from well
> to do family's and are in school or have secure futures etc. So I can see
> how the opinion towards relationships, racism, etc. is one sided. In the
> real world, opinions would differ greatly then that of the news groups.

But I'll bet he's SQUAT stable!

Besides, did you hear about the homeless guy who had a laptop computer
and a cell phone so he could access the web? I am not making this up.
Someone else may have, but it wasn't me. :)


> >That's just the shallow, 1st impression that I
> > try to ignore, but does play a part in who I'm interested in. I get
> > the impression that if a guy is too interested in his muscles and
> > how he looks that he won't have enough time to be interested in me.
> > I also don't want to be held to someone else's high standards...
>
> All those guys think their King Shit(tm). Most guys that don't work out
> think their King Shit(tm). Take a look at this ng. There's lots of guys in
> here who think they're a Walking Elmo Doll(tm).
> --

If they think they're a Walking Elmo Doll (tm), does that mean they have
a deep-seated desire to be tickled? Whenever I see one of these
specimens, should I try walking up to him, looking him in the eye, and
saying so only he can hear, "I know what you want. And now I'm going to
give it to you"?

And then tickle the daylights out of him until he's hooting with wild
reckless abandon, hollering in pain, curled up like a spent gym sock on
the floor, stomach quaking, chest heaving, tears running down his face...
And so completely spent, he will not be able to walk for at least three days.

I think this approach could be very empowering.

Watch out, muscle dudes!!

roy

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Mar 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/16/97
to

>
> (well, I guess blind people ignore everyone's looks... :) )

Reminds me of a gag in the new Howard Stern movie. Every woman Howard
asks out turns him down. He sees a blind co-ed walking by and asks her
out. She says "just a minute" feels his face, and turns him down.
Otherwise the movie wasn't that good, despite Siskel & Ebert's two
thumbs up.

-- Roy

DeVona

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97
to

roy wrote:
>
> There have been some posts from women with the misguided idea that guys
> want them to look like pipe cleaners. What about the other side of the
> coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped?

The ideal man is a mix of things:

--well-developed upper body
--good sense of humor (silliness okay)
--keen intellegence and wide-ranging interests
--affectionate and cuddly nature
--self-confident demeanor
--kind to animals and smaller/weaker creatures in general
--likes to talk about books, music, and ideas
--will dance if coerced
--shares what he knows
--will tolerate being petted, rubbbed, and massaged
--is a good spotter and a good sport in general
--doesn't complain if my workout runs late and dinner runs even later
--can deal with a woman who has a life of her own
--likes to eat good food and praises a good dinner
--is essentially good-hearted and honest
--is sexually uninhibited and frisky
--can open jars and fix mechanical things
--knows that love is a gift and not a barter

Here's a thought: the ideal man had pretty much the same qualities as
one's girl friends--except that the qualities are in a lust-inspiring
package.

DeVona

Mike Lakey

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97
to

DeVona wrote:
>
> The ideal man is a mix of things:
>
> X--well-developed upper body
> X--good sense of humor (silliness okay)
> X--keen intellegence and wide-ranging interests
> X--affectionate and cuddly nature
> X--self-confident demeanor
> X--kind to animals and smaller/weaker creatures in general
> X--likes to talk about books, music, and ideas
> X--shares what he knows
> X--will tolerate being petted, rubbbed, and massaged
> X--is a good spotter and a good sport in general
> X--doesn't complain if my workout runs late and dinner runs even later
> X--can deal with a woman who has a life of her own
> X--likes to eat good food and praises a good dinner
> X--is essentially good-hearted and honest
> X--is sexually uninhibited and frisky
> X--can open jars and fix mechanical things
> X--knows that love is a gift and not a barter

> --will dance if coerced
Damn, damn, damn!!!
--
______________________________________________________________________
Mike Lakey - cy...@intrepid.net

Mr. Sunshine

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97
to

In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.97031...@odin.cbu.edu>,
"Jennifer R. Martin" <jma...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote:

> On 15 Mar 1997, Mr. Sunshine wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.97031...@odin.cbu.edu>,
> > "Jennifer R. Martin" <jma...@odin.cbu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > Super-FISH-ally yours,
> > > Jennifer
> > >
> > > (who just bought an 8-pack of Starkist tuna at Sam's!!)
> >
> > TUNA SHAKE, BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 8^)
>
>
> HELL, YEAH!!!!!!

*grin*



> > No offense meant by using the word 'baby.' It's just an expression.
>
> Ohhhh, suuuuuure.... You were calling me immature, weren't you??!!??

I knew no matter what I'd be sticking my virtual foot in my mouth with
this post. :)



> Well, that's OK, I am just a baby in the world of the TUNA SHAKE!! I
> haven't had a tuna shake YET... But... The blender and the cans of tuna
> seem to be migrating closer and closer to one another...
>
> :-D
>
> Hey... does this look anything like a tuna? }==D
>
> Or maybe... >++8
>
> or what about... oh, never mind.
>
> Jennifer

They both looked pretty good. 8^)

Mr. Sunshine

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97
to

> roy wrote:
> >
> > There have been some posts from women with the misguided idea that guys
> > want them to look like pipe cleaners. What about the other side of the
> > coin, do women really want men who are super-pumped?
>

> The ideal man is a mix of things:
>

> --well-developed upper body
it's not bad...

> --good sense of humor (silliness okay)

got it

> --keen intellegence and wide-ranging interests

check

> --affectionate and cuddly nature
check

> --self-confident demeanor
hmmmm......sure :)

> --kind to animals and smaller/weaker creatures in general

check

> --likes to talk about books, music, and ideas

check

> --will dance if coerced
that'd be me

> --shares what he knows
check

> --will tolerate being petted, rubbbed, and massaged

absolutely

> --is a good spotter and a good sport in general

check

> --doesn't complain if my workout runs late and dinner runs even later

check

> --can deal with a woman who has a life of her own

not even a problem, in fact, preferable this way

> --likes to eat good food and praises a good dinner

check

> --is essentially good-hearted and honest

check

> --is sexually uninhibited and frisky

check

> --can open jars and fix mechanical things

well, I can open jars.....

> --knows that love is a gift and not a barter

check


>
> Here's a thought: the ideal man had pretty much the same qualities as
> one's girl friends--except that the qualities are in a lust-inspiring
> package.
>
> DeVona

Now if I could just get a date....... 8^)

Neal Glover

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Mar 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/17/97
to


Mike Davis <m...@inetdirect.com> wrote in

> In my first line I *meant* what you said above, most men show

> those triats. I then spoke of the man who is better looking\more
> muscular then the average man. I say the majority of these guys
> have their nose in the air.

I'd disagree. I think more often their actions are misinterpreted this way
by people who have biases against them or feel uncomfortable around them.
And a lot of the time when their actions would suggest snobbery it's
brought on by the behavior of those same people.

> A large proportion of 'us' men do NOT have unusual amounts
> of muscle on us, therefore you cannot say how cocky men
> would act if they did.

Well, yes, actually I can. If large proportions of men had unusual amounts
of muscle then those amounts of muscle wouldn't be unusual anymore and
they'd have no reason to act cocky. ;-)

> I'm not talking about computer nerds, I'm talking about guys that
> have an un-natural amount of muscle and are 'studs'. Many of these
> guys are bouncers, have had 50 'girlfriends', and have cars with tinted
> windows with 'booming systems'. Neal, go ahead and hang out with
> these guys and see for yourself if they're stuck up.

And rich guys are stuck up, and smart guys, and college guys (especially
frat guys), and good looking guys, and guys with nice cars, and guys with
great jobs, and guys from certain states, and white guys, and....

We all see/meet truly stuck up people. However the majority of those we
percieve as stuck up aren't really, they just travel in different groups
than we do, have different interests, different backgrounds, are shy, etc..
We share a mutual lack of understanding. When I see people who classify
groups in a particular way I often see people who want desperately to
belong to such a group, people who are envious, or people who are
frightened. They can't find a way in or find the strength or courage
within themselves to make the necessary sacrifices to become a member of
that group. Usually you'll find that if you make the effort to get to know
someone in one of these groups that they really aren't that bad.

BTW, I can't remember seeing a big guy in a car with tinted window and a
booming system. Those by far seem to be taken up by skinny little guys who
are seeking some other symbol of their coolness.

> I say the majority of men that have unusual muscle mass are
> stuck up. You call this very broad and extreem. I call this being
> real and speaking the truth.

No, I call the terms you used extreme. I have no problems with your
complaints about certain behaviors, but the names and the characterizations
you used indicate an extreme prejudice on your part. You seem more to be
venting your anger and frustration than criticisizing behavior.

> I fully understand your way of thinking and a totally understand why
> you have said the above. Neal, most people on the ng's and Internet
> share your way of thinking. There are few (on the ng's) that understand
> mine. You may not understand this becuase you may be from a 'higher
> status class', in a College, from a good family, educated well etc. Types
> as yourself (and yes you are a type - everyone is, espesially in the
U.S.)
> probably have never been personally exposed to the variety the world has
> to offer. Like lower status induviduals, very high status groups, people
on
> welfare, blue collar workers, high school drop out's, drug users,
> immagrants, minority's, gang members, gays, low income trailer trash,
> Christian church fanatics etc. etc..

Well, I'll tell you about myself just so you know where I'm coming from. I
was born and raised on a small farm in rural Kentucky. Grew up a very,
very, skinny little kid who was beat up and picked on from first grade
through graduation. Not only bullies beat me up, normal kids beat me up,
girls beat me up. Uncoordinated and skinny, I was humilated in PE and
brought to tears in front of everyone even in high school. I couldn't
participate in any physical activity without being the laugingstock. People
would drive by and see me in the yard in shorts and laugh I was such a bean
pole. Know why I was so skinny? Because though my dad made good money he
was cheap. He decided to spend X dollars per week on groceries. Family
grew larger, prices went up, dollars stayed the same. Sister needed
glasses, they came out of the grocery money. Ever see a 5 kids living off
of margarine and crackers for weeks at a time when their dad's sticking
hundreds in bonds away with each paycheck??

I was told DAILY that I was stupid, lazy, and no good by my dad and later
by many of my teachers. I'd look at my dad and he'd claim I was looking at
him funny or making faces and hit me over the head. I was drug to church
every Sunday to keep up images, but it was hardly Christian at home. From
Jr. High on through graduation I was constantly in trouble and getting
expelled. In many of my classes I alternated E's and F's just averaging a
passing grade (I did try). I was (damn...still am) unattractive. I had
few friends and no money to go anywhere I could meet anyone. Hell, I
couldn't hang out with the ones I had till I made friends with some guys
about a mile down the road (could walk to their house). I was the school
scum, the low life, a loser. After school I couldn't find a job. My dad
and uncles wouldn't even think of suggesting me to someone when a job
opened because they assumed I would screw up and embarrass them. I
couldn't get a girl, hell couldn't get where I could see one. From 13 to
19 years of age I'd just as soon have been dead as wake up. My dad
wouldn't help with college costs, or even loans, to get me an education
when I decided I wanted one.

>To be on the internet, you need a computer. A computer
> is expensive. A household that can financially offord a
> computer is financially well to do. They are not struggling
> blue collar homes trying to keep out of debt.

My debt is around $30,000. My monthly expenses about $1400. Right now my
income is about $1200 a month from computer work I do in home. It could be
much more with my current education, but I'm using the spare time this work
allows to do some stuff of my own which I hope will pay of in the future
and to get in shape. While it is a conscious decision on my part I am
struggling at the moment. More importantly, most of the people I know
(personally) who are on the net are low income families who are using
cheesy little pc's that can't handle much of the software available.
That's not to say your claims are wrong, just that they are becoming less
true every day.

> An Internet connection can also be found in a College or
> University. This represents a higher level of education
> and a higher status class.

There are a number of poverty level students though who gain access through
community colleges and regular ones with scholarships and loans. By and
large I would agree with you though.

> Then there's work. A connection established through work
> represents a good job. A janitor or garbage man
> doesn't have access to the internet through work.

But some number of lower income people, who have desk jobs, do. For all
intents I would agree with you.

> These facts represent a higher status class that use the
> internet and especially the news groups becuase to even use
> the net you most know how to work the software etc. This
> takes learning and time, intelligent people have no problem
> learning something new.

I don't agree with this argument. A great many children under 10 can surf
the net and use newsgroups. Many master the software easier than their
parents. Above average intelligence isn't necessary (just read some of the
posts ;-) ). It's more about a desire to learn something new and getting
over the fear of screwing something up or being embarrassed by your lack of
knowledge.

> I spent $1600 on this computer, and my status class is
> 'poverty'.

I spent $1200 on mine, though if you count all the upgrades I've ran
through 3 times that in 5 years. My status is 'you need to file for
bankruptcy'. (partly because of my computer and weightlifting purchases)

> It was only luck that I got the money to buy this computer. I DO
> NOT represent the average Internet user. I am not in the same
> status class as most of the people here. I'm a person that is on
> the net, that 'shouldn't' be. I find that the most intelligent of the net
> hangs out on the news groups. You guys (oh no) are soquick to
> say exactly what you said "It doesn't mean *all* of us/them/people".

Few of us represent the average internet user. That makeup is changing
every day as computers drop in price and cheesy services like AOL abound.

Yes we do say "It doesn't mean *all* of us/them/people", but that's usually
in response to people like yourself who refer to groups as a whole.
Referring to men with big muscles rather than men in general still unfairly
characterizes many members of that group.

> I mean do I really have to start every sentence by 'IMHO'.

Nope. Terms like too often and frequently are useful in this regard.

> I always have to sit here, think about my sentence grammar,
> spelling, vocabulary, and what I'm saying. I must do these
> things to be taken somewhat seriously.

But that's true in all aspects of life. In fact it's probably easier here
because most people understand the broad variety of people on the net, and
they understand the ease at which you can make mistakes when typing out
your thoughts. Only weenies who can't think of a better argument attack
your spelling and the simpler vocabulary and grammar errors.

> It comes natural to people such as yourself, for you
> represent the majority of the people on the Internet.

English was my worst class ever. Saw so many F's you'd think that F
appeared every third letter of the alphabet. I worked on it, and I still
do. You can tell by reading my posts, some sound intelligent, some
pathetic. The intelligent ones I may rewrite a dozen times before I post,
the others only a few.

> I represent the minority of people on the internet.

I think you do yourself a disservice by classifying yourself that way.
It's bad enough when others place you into classifications, but when you do
it you run the risk of limiting your own thinking.

> People fall into certain catagory's. You fall into the standard
> internet newsgroup .edu good family and future catagory. In the
> real world, only %50 of people vote. In the internet world, %99 of
> people vote. In the real world, there is a divorse rate of about %50.
> In the internet world, everyone has a mom and dad. I'm trying to
> say that you are living in a bubble. In the real world there are
> limiting factors that make things *very* hard to accomplish.

I wish I were living in a bubble. You are making very big assumptions
about me based on your understanding of those on the net. I may or may not
have had a harsher life than you, but I can assure you there are people on
the net (and all over the world) who have, and who have overcome all
hurdles to better their life.

> One is money. If a ghetto child wanted to start a muscle
> magazine, he wouldn't be able to do it becuase everyone he
> knows is poor, and becuase he was born with too many
> brain chromizones missing which resulted in poor intelligence.

Poor intelligence adversely affects anyone who suffers it, and it's not
limited to, nor abundant in those from the getto. Society and environment
play the bigger role there.

> That poor intelligence limits him from bieng a doctor, lawyer,

> bieng well spoken etc, and getting a good job. will end up

> bieng on wellfair or doing a minimum wage paying job. These
> are things the vast majority of your status class don't understand.
> You guys think that you can get anything you want if you just try.

No, we don't. But we know that you won't get anything if you don't try.
You try, you fail, you try again. Maybe you try something new, but if you
keep trying and fighting you will eventually succeed. You may not go far,
you may not get rich, but you can improve your life and, if you have
children, theirs. That's cummulative over the generations. Do you think
all the middle class+ people just magically attained that status? They
worked for it, their parents worked for it, and their parent's parents
worked for it.

> That may be how it is for YOU Mr. .edu, but it's not like
> that for everyone else. You people have trouble understanding
> because you have grown up in bubbles.

Most of my early life sucked, hardly a bubble. Many of my friends ended up
in jail, constantly in trouble, in minimum wage jobs. I could *easily*
have ended up there. I'm not exactly in the clear yet, but I got where I
am by taking responsibility for myself, my actions, and my destiny. I wish
I were brighter, stronger, more motivated. What I can change I do, or I
accept the consequences and responsibilty of not doing so, what I can't
change I make the best of. I have improved many aspects of my life. My
personal life and my emotional state could use a lot of work, as I have
little social life and half the emotions of a vulcan. I'm still trying
though and until I've explored all possible avenues and failed I can't very
well complain.

> I understand why you think the way you do. You cannot understand
> *why* I think the way I do. You can deny it all you want, as to where
> I can admit it when someone or myself is right or wrong. You do not
> represnt the majority of people. On the internet you do, but not in the
> real world I promise you this. You said the answer lies within.
> Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes these things are out of our control.
> These things I do not expect you to understand becuase you already
> have everything and know nothing else.

I could easily have taken the attitude that everyone was holding me down
and developed biases against just about every group of society. I even did
for a while. But instead of sitting on my ass calling names and griping
about how others actions limited me I took charge of my life. I went to an
electronics tech. school (went in debt, took pathetic 3rd shift jobs) but I
studied hard and graduated with a 4.0 GPA. I got a job