Mathematical Cartwheels
Mark Shapiro
and others as schools and teachers struggle with demands for higher
standards from various sectors of society. Felice Prager's guest
commentary -- "Mathematical Cartwheels" -- shows that going overboard with
homework in high school honors classes can do more harm than good.
And, the IP chimes in with his own take on a reasonable guideline for honors
course homework.
Read it all at: http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-12-09-02.htm
Sincerely,
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professor
http://irascibleprofessor.com
Herman Rubin
Mark Shapiro <msha...@nospm-adelphia.net> wrote:
>How much homework is too much? This is a question asked often by parents
>and others as schools and teachers struggle with demands for higher
>standards from various sectors of society. Felice Prager's guest
>commentary -- "Mathematical Cartwheels" -- shows that going overboard with
>homework in high school honors classes can do more harm than good.
>And, the IP chimes in with his own take on a reasonable guideline for honors
>course homework.
>Read it all at: http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-12-09-02.htm
I have looked at the article.
The major problem that I see is that teachers want children
to do homework for the sake of doing homework. This is
true of all courses, and at all levels.
One does not learn by doing problems one knows how to do;
it is possible to get some practice, but this is not likely
to be of any great importance. Some can be justified in
order to check that it can be done, but nothing like what
is now customarily assigned. Also, apart from a few
examination assignments, it is not clear that homework
should even be considered in assigning a grade.
Time-wasting impediments to learning, including busy work,
almost all projects, etc., should be abolished, and the
schools should concentrate on doing the most effective
job of teaching the individual child.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Deptartment of Statistics, Purdue University
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
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Herman Rubin
Alberto Moreira <junk...@moreira.mv.com> wrote:
>hru...@odds.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) said:
>>In article <ALSI9.135$vd6.3...@news3.news.adelphia.net>,
>>Mark Shapiro <msha...@nospm-adelphia.net> wrote:
>>>And, the IP chimes in with his own take on a reasonable guideline for honors
>>>course homework.
>>>Read it all at: http://irascibleprofessor.com/comments-12-09-02.htm
>>I have looked at the article.
>>The major problem that I see is that teachers want children
>>to do homework for the sake of doing homework. This is
>>true of all courses, and at all levels.
>I disagree. It takes what it takes.
It takes what it takes FOR THE INDIVIDUAL.
The objective of homework is to
>extend classroom time by forcing the student to sit down and spend
>time of his or her own on the subject matter. The weaker the student,
>the more such time will be needed.
I agree; but again, how much time is needed depends on the
individual, and it should be considered that way.
Educational practices which concentrate on learning and
understanding cannot mandate an amount of time spent on
doing homework.
DEATH AND BLACK METAL
>>I disagree. It takes what it takes.
>
>It takes what it takes FOR THE INDIVIDUAL.
The individual is overrated. Society is by nature collectivist.
Mark Shapiro
I tried, perhaps not too successfully, in my comments in the article to do
the scaling from a college course to a similar honors high school course.
Let me do the calculation in a bit more detail. I advise my physics
students to spend about three hours outside of class for every in class
hour. For a typical three unit course, we have 16 weeks of class, three
hours per week. So we have a total of 48 in class hours, and 144 outside of
class hours for a total of 192 hours.
The corresponding high school class meets five hours per week for 18 weeks
for a total of 90 in class hours. To get to the 192 hours then would
require 102 hours of homework That works out to 5.7 hours per week. So
about six hours per week of homework should make the high school honors
class pretty much equivalent to the college class.
Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
Editor and Publisher
The Irascible Professor
http://irascibleprofessor.com
"Herman Rubin" <hru...@odds.stat.purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:at5fif$d...@odds.stat.purdue.edu...
Gray Shockley
(in message <ibyJ9.279$vd6.6...@news3.news.adelphia.net>):
> Dear Herman and Alberto,
>
> I tried, perhaps not too successfully, in my comments in the article to do
> the scaling from a college course to a similar honors high school course.
>
> Let me do the calculation in a bit more detail. I advise my physics
> students to spend about three hours outside of class for every in class
> hour. For a typical three unit course, we have 16 weeks of class, three
> hours per week. So we have a total of 48 in class hours, and 144 outside of
> class hours for a total of 192 hours.
>
> The corresponding high school class meets five hours per week for 18 weeks
> for a total of 90 in class hours. To get to the 192 hours then would
> require 102 hours of homework That works out to 5.7 hours per week. So
> about six hours per week of homework should make the high school honors
> class pretty much equivalent to the college class.
The problem I see with this schedule is that it's fine if it's the only class
the H.S. student takes.
But taking your physics class and then taking math, English, history and a
foreign language (typical) and not counting non-academics - and all classes
being "equal" (whatever that means <smile>) - the students now have about
thirty hours of homework a week.
I see a problem.
Gray Shockley
--------------------------
Entropy Maintenance Technician
Tao Chemical Company
--------------------------
gr...@compcomm.com
http://www.compcomm.com/
Vicksburg, Mississippi US
John Gilmer
>
> The problem I see with this schedule is that it's fine if it's the only
class
> the H.S. student takes.
>
> But taking your physics class and then taking math, English, history and a
> foreign language (typical) and not counting non-academics - and all
classes
> being "equal" (whatever that means <smile>) - the students now have about
> thirty hours of homework a week.
>
> I see a problem.
A very big AMEN!
Today I had a run in with my 4th grade kid's teacher.
I told the teacher that my kid has more homework than I had in high school
or in college. I lived a mile or more off campus 3 of the 4 years of
college. I never used a backback or whatever to carry my books. Yet my
kids have been required to have backpack since kindergarten!
It seems to be that the "teachers" are substituting homework for teaching.
>
Gabor
Congratulations on bringing up the topic.
I have posted on this topic so often, I shall spare readers the full
power of my usual rhetoric.
In my experience, some schools consider a heavy homework load as
contributing to their reputation of being a "good school". If they
want to attract many students from certain countries, this may be a
very good marketing ploy.
Also in my experience, many otherwise intelligent people think that
lots of homework is good for the student. Their reasoning is almost
irrelevant - this is an Act of Faith.
Given the power relationships in this world, you can't usually escape
from such people. But if you can, run, and good luck!
Herman Rubin
>I tried, perhaps not too successfully, in my comments in the article to do
>the scaling from a college course to a similar honors high school course.
>Let me do the calculation in a bit more detail. I advise my physics
>students to spend about three hours outside of class for every in class
>hour.
First of all, do they need it? If they do, they should
spend the time; if they need more time, they should spend
more time: if they do not need to spend the time, they
should not. BTW, most universities state two hours outside
of class, and this covers a large range of universities.
For a typical three unit course, we have 16 weeks of class, three
>hours per week. So we have a total of 48 in class hours, and 144 outside of
>class hours for a total of 192 hours.
These figures on class time are high for major universities.
>The corresponding high school class meets five hours per week for 18 weeks
>for a total of 90 in class hours. To get to the 192 hours then would
>require 102 hours of homework That works out to 5.7 hours per week. So
>about six hours per week of homework should make the high school honors
>class pretty much equivalent to the college class.
If the high school class covers the same material at the
same level, this could be correct, except as stated above.
I question this.
The time spent should be the time needed, no more and no
less. It would also be a good idea to revise the course
so that more is covered, more comprehensibly, with less
time spent.
>Dr. Mark H. Shapiro
>Editor and Publisher
>The Irascible Professor
>http://irascibleprofessor.com
Herman Rubin
John Gilmer <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote:
>> I see a problem.
>A very big AMEN!
They should do more of this, and let the students learn at their
pace, but not keep them in school sitting around.
Letting children carry their schoolbooks home is a great step
"backward". It was not unusual before the educationist
"improvements", but then they decided that school is the only
place to learn.
Herman Rubin
Alberto Moreira <junk...@moreira.mv.com> wrote:
>DEATH AND BLACK METAL <deathbl...@anus.com> said:
>>>>I disagree. It takes what it takes.
>>>It takes what it takes FOR THE INDIVIDUAL.
>>The individual is overrated. Society is by nature collectivist.
>Society, in the end, is nothing a collectivistic parasiting of the
>work of those individuals who can and do. The world is driven by
>individual power.
Failure to realize this is what causes the poor performance of
socialist activities. Even if most "will work for the common
good", they will not improve the situation.
George Bernard Shaw, who was a Fabian socialist himself, stated
(quote from memory):
The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment.
The unreasonable man attempts to adapt his environment
to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the
unreasonable man.
When good results come from government activities, they come
from the directions of the few with vision who are allowed the
freedom to use it.
John Leslie
> John Gilmer <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote:
>
>> Today I had a run in with my 4th grade kid's teacher.
>>
>> I told the teacher that my kid has more homework than I had in
>> high school or in college. I lived a mile or more off campus
>> 3 of the 4 years of college. I never used a backback or whatever
>> to carry my books. Yet my kids have been required to have backpack
>> since kindergarten!
I agree that's ridiculous. Why _require_ backpacks? (Especially
knowing the possible harmful physical effects of carrying books that
way...)
>> It seems to be that the "teachers" are substituting homework for
>> teaching.
>
> They should do more of this, and let the students learn at their
> pace, but not keep them in school sitting around.
Neither teaching nor homework can "substitute" for the other.
> Letting children carry their schoolbooks home is a great step
> "backward". It was not unusual before the educationist
> "improvements", but then they decided that school is the only
> place to learn.
I think you've got the question backwards. It shouldn't be whether
students should carry books _home_: we should ask why students should
carry books _to_school_.
--
John Leslie <jo...@jlc.net>
John Leslie
>
> I do not count non-academics, and a work day should be a work day even
> at high school level. So, let's see, four courses, three times a week,
> that's 12 hours of classroom time - I see no need for more, and no
> reason to give a student any more courses a semester.
I recall discovering in college that I was ill-equipped to learn
five difficult subjects the same semester. Alas, at that time, one
had to carry five subjects to maintain the draft deferrment. Continuing
the attempt didn't help my academic career...
> Use a 2-1 ratio, that's a healthy ratio, that's 24 hours. So, in the
> worst case, a student will need a 36-hour week, which may be too much.
I think most of us would accept a 36-hour work-week for high school
students. The problem is, we already schedule them for a 30-hour _school_
week. This doesn't leave enough time for home(work)-learning.
> But given that it may not be a good idea to dilute those 3-1 hours in
> tough disciplines, the secret is to mix easier courses with tough ones
> so as to balance the student's workload down to a reasonable workload.
My college experience would have been much easier had I done this...
But of course, I didn't. I went to college with some specific ideas
of what I wanted to learn: and I wasn't interested in fluff. Had I to
do it again, I'd take four courses and call it enough. (Which seems to
have become popular...)
Would we really be doing our high school students a favor by forcing
them to schedule fluff?
--
John Leslie <jo...@jlc.net>
John Gilmer
"John Leslie" <jo...@jlc.net> wrote in message
news:atb2sj$7q5$1...@mozart.jlc.net...
> Alberto Moreira <junk...@moreira.mv.com> wrote:
> >
> > I do not count non-academics, and a work day should be a work day even
> > at high school level. So, let's see, four courses, three times a week,
> > that's 12 hours of classroom time - I see no need for more, and no
> > reason to give a student any more courses a semester.
>
> I recall discovering in college that I was ill-equipped to learn
> five difficult subjects the same semester. Alas, at that time, one
> had to carry five subjects to maintain the draft deferrment. Continuing
> the attempt didn't help my academic career...
Poor baby!
I carried 5 subjects plus ROTC!
Bob LeChevalier
It doesn't have to be "fluff". My son, who was suffering in K-8, is
doing much better in high school. Same amount of time in class, but
of his 7 classes, 1 is PE (which is 1/7 of his schedule rather than
the 1/20 or so back in K-6, and 2 are band and jazz band, which
require him to work seriously, but in a far different way (with less
of the stress-inducing lecture and writing). With only half his
classes academic, he is better focused when he is in academic classes.
(He still doesn't do homework - except for some (not enough) music
practice, but he is clearly more attentive and participatory at
school.)
lojbab
John Gilmer
"Alberto Moreira" <junk...@moreira.mv.com> wrote in message
news:amojvu4q7kkllorhj...@4ax.com...
> John Leslie <jo...@jlc.net> said:
>
>
> > Would we really be doing our high school students a favor by forcing
> >them to schedule fluff?
>
> require as much work. There may be several reasons for that, for
> example, a course may be the reinforcement of something intuitive, or
> it may be debate-centered, or it may be a lab-intensive program with
> little need for work outside the lab hours. In college parlance some
> of these courses are called "electives", and teachers know better than
> to overload certain electives with work !
OT (but):
When I was a freshman the Chemistry Department demanded we take (in addition
to the "real" Chemistry course) a one hour "LAB." There wasn't supposed to
be any homework: we were to get a quick lecture and then go to the "lab" and
pour stuff into test tubes or whatever.
But,in reality, we had more homework from the 1 hour "lab" than from the 3
hour "real" Chemistry.
If I have a point (other than I am still pissed off after 30+ years) it is
that SOMEONE should check to see whether the individual teachers are
demanding too much or too little from their little darlings.
Donna Metler
"Alberto Moreira" <junk...@moreira.mv.com> wrote in message
news:amojvu4q7kkllorhj...@4ax.com...
> John Leslie <jo...@jlc.net> said:
>
>
> >them to schedule fluff?
>
> require as much work. There may be several reasons for that, for
> example, a course may be the reinforcement of something intuitive, or
> it may be debate-centered, or it may be a lab-intensive program with
> little need for work outside the lab hours. In college parlance some
> of these courses are called "electives", and teachers know better than
> to overload certain electives with work !
>
>
regularly enrolled for 8 courses in a 6 period day every semester of high
school, sometimes 9 or 10 due to dual enrollment, but at least half my
classes every term were in the fine arts department at the high school or
the university and were considered "fluff" by many outside the department.
And, if it was a choice between instrumental practice and reading for AP
English, practice won.
> Alberto.
>
>
Donna Metler
"John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:3df9f056$0$20...@dingus.crosslink.net...
lecture provides the theory, but the real work occurs in the lab. Just
because the contact hours are less doesn't mean it isn't real work.
Similarly, music classes at the university level are often seen as easy
because they're usually only one credit hour. But a one credit hour applied
class for a music major requires 2-3 hours of practice a day to keep up, and
a one credit hour ensemble is probably at least 5 hours of group rehearsal a
week-plus any private practice needed to master the music. There were
semesters in college when I was in a classroom 30 hours a week, but was
enrolled for only 15 credit hours-and this was before any homework, study,
or practice time.
John Leslie
> John Leslie <jo...@jlc.net> wrote:
>>
>> Would we really be doing our high school students a favor by forcing
>> them to schedule fluff?
>
> It doesn't have to be "fluff".
Fluff is in the eye of the beholder...
> My son, who was suffering in K-8, is doing much better in high school.
> Same amount of time in class, but of his 7 classes, 1 is PE (which is
> 1/7 of his schedule rather than the 1/20 or so back in K-6, and 2 are
> band and jazz band, which require him to work seriously, but in a far
> different way (with less of the stress-inducing lecture and writing).
I can't speak for Bob's son, but I would have considered band and
jazz band "fluff". (Nowadays, I've learned to keep opinions to myself,
but that's not the issue -- the issue is what the students think.)
I hasten to point out (in my defense) that I _did_ take Chorus in
High School; but honestly, except for the challenge of being the
accompanist, I would have considered it pure fluff.
(OT: if anyone _has_ the opportunity to be accompanist for a high
school chorus, grab it!)
> With only half his classes academic, he is better focused when he is
> in academic classes.
And possibly, if Alberto had his way, Bob's son would be even more
focused during three classes a week for each subject...
--
John Leslie <jo...@jlc.net>
Donna Metler
classes were the most important part of my education-the other classes,
including Calculus and AP physics, were the breaks from my real work.
"John Leslie" <jo...@jlc.net> wrote in message
news:atdr6d$1dj9$1...@mozart.jlc.net...
PETERS MARK
wrote:
Students carry books to and from school because they do not have two
sets of books: one set for home, one set for school. I few times I had
two copies of the same book. I did not have to carry that book to and
from school.
Magi D. Shepley
TEACHERS have little to zero say on school policies? Every school I've
ever been in (barring the current one, which is a hospital program)
requires homework... every night, and of a certain amount. I've never
been able to CHOOSE how much or what I give, and if I don't follow the
policy, I get written up or reprimanded. I've also had parents call me
and DEMAND more homework for their children when they think I'm not
giving enough.
Currently, the content area teachers in my school give homework, and its
one subject per night because of the way our program is structured.
Most teachers don't include the "Special subjects" such as tech ed or
art in their homework planning, so I don't give homework.
Magi
Gabor
> How many parents and people who are not in the schools realize that
> TEACHERS have little to zero say on school policies? Every school I've
> ever been in (barring the current one, which is a hospital program)
> requires homework... every night, and of a certain amount. I've never
> been able to CHOOSE how much or what I give, and if I don't follow the
> policy, I get written up or reprimanded. I've also had parents call me
> and DEMAND more homework for their children when they think I'm not
> giving enough.
> Currently, the content area teachers in my school give homework, and its
> one subject per night because of the way our program is structured.
> Most teachers don't include the "Special subjects" such as tech ed or
> art in their homework planning, so I don't give homework.
>
> Magi
>
Magi, I was not thinking of teachers in my posting - if you look
carefully, you'll see that I didn't mention them. I was thinking of
people higher up the command hierarchy, of the people who design
things like "homework policies" for teachers to implement.
What I object to in particular is the use of ethical/moral statements
in connection with homework. It's good for character! It's good for
family togetherness!
I'd rather keep character development within my family, and take the
kids to the zoo or a museum for family togetherness.
Sincerely,
Gabor
Herman Rubin
Donna Metler <nospam_...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>If you are a serious music student, Band is not "fluff". For me, my music
>classes were the most important part of my education-the other classes,
>including Calculus and AP physics, were the breaks from my real work.
Education needs to be individual, and the grade-credit
system is a hangover from the past, as is placing students
by age, or by "development" except in those fields for
which it really matters.
At least at some universities, there are separate degrees
in music and in music performance.
John Gilmer
> TEACHERS have little to zero say on school policies? Every school I've
> ever been in (barring the current one, which is a hospital program)
> requires homework... every night, and of a certain amount. I've never
> been able to CHOOSE how much or what I give, and if I don't follow the
> policy, I get written up or reprimanded.
You just don't have much imagination!
In my kids' school the teachers at each grade level play "mix and match" to:
1) have only one teacher handle "science," "computer," etc. per grade level;
and 2) permit "tracking" in math and some other subjects.
In your situation, you might consider assigning TONS of homework for the
benefit of the "concerned" parents and simply give varying degrees of credit
to sub-sections of the total assignment. If you do it right, the lazy kids
will figure out that they can skip 75% of the work with little or no effect
on their grade. You can amplify this by giving "homework credit" in
exchange for good grades on tests and quizzes.
I learned much of this during the 3 months when I was the "Training Officer"
for my unit. All our training and records were subject to frequent
inspection. With the help of my college educated "clerks" we figured out
how to do what we wanted and still pass the "inspections."
The system, by the way, is designed that way! There is almost always a way
around any stupid rule. You just have to be smart enough to find it.
Magi D. Shepley
teachers in a round about backhand way.
Magi
Magi D. Shepley
education. I usually have all the 7/8th or all the 9-12th graders or
9-10th graders in a specific area (either disability or subject), and am
responsible for teaching everybody. There is no other teacher that can
give the "computer" and "math" homework for me, because I'm the only
teacher. Or, as the case is now, I push into other programs, and the
other programs choose NOT to enforce my giving homework to the students.
If their teachers don't enforce it, there isn't a whole lot I can do
unless I feel like battling over a nonsense issue. I don't. There
isn't anything I would send home for Tech Ed that wouldn't be "make work".
As far as the other goes, those are possibilies... at times. When I
give homework, I always gave "homework credit"... usually as extra
credit on their tests. But that doesn't absolve me of assigning the
amount and type of homework that my administration requires.
Magi
John Leslie
>
> If you are a serious music student, Band is not "fluff".
I agree, fluff is in the eye of the beholder.
> For me, my music classes were the most important part of my education-
> the other classes, including Calculus and AP physics, were the breaks
> from my real work.
For the serious music student (IMHO) the "real work" happens during
practice time.
During high school, I certainly found time for piano and pipe organ
practice (and as far as I recall, I considered those times "real work").
But my question didn't intend to apply any judgment of what is "fluff"
other than the judgment of the student. I'd still like an answer to the
question, BTW:
>>>> Would we really be doing our high school students a favor by forcing
>>>> them to schedule fluff?
--
John Leslie <jo...@jlc.net>
John Leslie
> Donna Metler <nospam_...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> If you are a serious music student, Band is not "fluff". For me,
>> my music classes were the most important part of my education-the
>> other classes, including Calculus and AP physics, were the breaks
>> from my real work.
>
> Education needs to be individual,
There's really nothing "individual" about band or jazz-band classes.
The whole point of such classes is working together.
> and the grade-credit system is a hangover from the past,
This isn't necessarily bad: after all, you and I are hangovers from
the past as well... ;^)
> as is placing students by age,
... which is minimal in music classes...
> or by "development" except in those fields for which it really matters.
I'm instantly suspicious of any charlatan who claims to be able to
classify children by "developmental level" based on one observation
six or more months ago.
Music classes at the high school level are based on shared interests,
which is the way I wish more subjects were organized.
> At least at some universities, there are separate degrees in music
> and in music performance.
Music involves many disciplines, from performance, to teaching, to
composing and arranging, to musicology (and others I've omitted).
High school is necessarily limited in what it can offer.
--
John Leslie <jo...@jlc.net>
Donna Metler
> Herman Rubin <hru...@odds.stat.purdue.edu> wrote:
> > Donna Metler <nospam_...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> >> If you are a serious music student, Band is not "fluff". For me,
> >> my music classes were the most important part of my education-the
> >> other classes, including Calculus and AP physics, were the breaks
> >> from my real work.
> >
> > Education needs to be individual,
And it was-my priorities were set based on my interests, which included a
lot of science classes, but also on my goals, which definitely included fine
arts. And group music classes, both in school and in settings like regional
youth orchestras, were an important part of that program.
>
> There's really nothing "individual" about band or jazz-band classes.
> The whole point of such classes is working together.
And that is the idea. One does not become a professional level performer on
a wind or string instrument without being able to work in a group, deal with
differing ability levels and personalities, etc. A good instrumental music
program at a reasonably large high school will involve multiple performing
groups at different levels, and while the lower levels may be just for fun,
the higher ones absolutely will not be.
>
> > and the grade-credit system is a hangover from the past,
>
> This isn't necessarily bad: after all, you and I are hangovers from
> the past as well... ;^)
>
> > as is placing students by age,
>
> ... which is minimal in music classes...
>
> > or by "development" except in those fields for which it really matters.
>
> I'm instantly suspicious of any charlatan who claims to be able to
> classify children by "developmental level" based on one observation
> six or more months ago.
Music probably is one of the most leveled classes based on development and
skills. In my district, there are 8 levels of instrumental music available,
ranging from beginning band/orchestra, which is "doesn't know which end of
the instrument is up, can't read music" to the highest performing
band/orchestras which are designed for students for whom music is definitely
a valid career option. What is significant is that while most curriculums
are written for only one grade level, each level of the band curriculum is
assigned officially at all grades 5-12, and younger students can be assigned
to it as well if you have a child who has been taking violin since age 3 who
enters at 1st grade ready to go into intermediate orchestra or performing
orchestra I, for example.
I am officially considered to be teaching (this year), 3 levels of choral
music, 3 levels of band, plus 5 grades of general music. The class size
ranges from 2 to 45.
I regularly have students go through 2-3 levels a year, and I also have
students who take at least 1-2 years to get through the beginning
curriculum. I have a 4th grader currently at the Performance I level
(normally expected at 8th grade), and a 6th grader who is still strugging
with the objectives normally mastered in the first grading period, 18 weeks
into the semester.
>
> Music classes at the high school level are based on shared interests,
> which is the way I wish more subjects were organized.
>
> > At least at some universities, there are separate degrees in music
> > and in music performance.
Here's what is offered at most universities in my experience.
Music Performance and Pedagogy is designed for the performing musician and
the professional applied teacher (individual). It is performance based, with
the primary examinations being juried performances, and junior and senior
recitals are required. Jazz Studies is a music performance degree. Piano
Pedagogy is also generally part of the performance department. The top
degree conferred is the DMA (Doctor of Musical Arts)
BS or BA music degrees are academic degrees-Music History, Music Theory and
Composition, Music Literature, and Musicology fall under these. In these
degrees, performance is part of the program, but is secondary to academic
work. The degree is generally conferred based on a thesis or major
composition, presented at either a performance or in a lecture recital to
ones peers. Some schools break these down as degrees in their own right. At
the top level, these are often PhD programs.
Music Education is designed for the group music teacher, either elementary
or secondary. The highest degree conferred is usually in education-either an
EdS or PhD.
All of these have subspecialties as well, and double majors are common (In
my case, Woodwind Performance/Ped and Musicology)
>
> Music involves many disciplines, from performance, to teaching, to
> composing and arranging, to musicology (and others I've omitted).
> High school is necessarily limited in what it can offer.
There are specialized performing arts high school programs in some large
cities, considered to be city magnet schools-the NYC School of the
Performing Arts is the best known example. In Memphis, we have performing
arts optional schools at all levels.
>
> --
> John Leslie <jo...@jlc.net>
Gabor
> Generally, when people leave out teachers "specificially", they mean
> teachers in a round about backhand way.
>
> Magi
>
Magi, I am sorry if you took my comment that way - if I want to say
something about teachers as such, I'll say so. It would be rather
foolish, however, as there are millions of teachers in the world, and
it would be silly to make almost any generalization about them. There
are all kinds of teachers - some good, some bad, some indifferent.
Mine were mostly quite good.
My comment had to do with what I believe is called the "authoritarian
personality". These are people who enjoy throwing their weight around
even when there is no particular need for it. Some teachers are like
that, most - I hope - are not.
Gabor
Magi D. Shepley
paint teachers with a broad brush and the color is almost always black.
Magi
John Leslie
>
> Music probably is one of the most leveled classes based on development
> and skills. In my district, there are 8 levels of instrumental music
> available, ranging from beginning band/orchestra, which is "doesn't
> know which end of the instrument is up, can't read music" to the
> highest performing band/orchestras which are designed for students
> for whom music is definitely a valid career option.
This is rare, IMHO, though actually it makes as much sense as having
eight grade levels...
> What is significant is that while most curriculums are written for
> only one grade level, each level of the band curriculum is assigned
> officially at all grades 5-12, and younger students can be assigned
> to it as well if you have a child who has been taking violin since
> age 3 who enters at 1st grade ready to go into intermediate orchestra
> or performing orchestra I, for example.
I'm curious how the scheduling is arranged, and how formal the
assignment of levels is (audition, etc.)
> I am officially considered to be teaching (this year), 3 levels of
> choral music, 3 levels of band, plus 5 grades of general music.
> The class size ranges from 2 to 45.
Hopefully they don't all meet every day... ;^)
> I regularly have students go through 2-3 levels a year,
How is the scheduling change managed?
> and I also have students who take at least 1-2 years to get through
> the beginning curriculum. I have a 4th grader currently at the
> Performance I level (normally expected at 8th grade), and a 6th grader
> who is still strugging with the objectives normally mastered in the
> first grading period, 18 weeks into the semester.
I gather the 6th-grader hasn't seen any schedule change yet. How
would such a change be managed, if necessary?
>> Herman Rubin <hru...@odds.stat.purdue.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> At least at some universities, there are separate degrees in music
>>> and in music performance.
>
> Here's what is offered at most universities in my experience.
>
> Music Performance and Pedagogy is designed for the performing musician
> and the professional applied teacher (individual). It is performance
> based, with the primary examinations being juried performances, and
> junior and senior recitals are required. Jazz Studies is a music
> performance degree. Piano Pedagogy is also generally part of the
> performance department. The top degree conferred is the DMA (Doctor
> of Musical Arts)
To what extent is this considered proper preparation for a public
school music teaching career?
> BS or BA music degrees are academic degrees-Music History, Music
> Theory and Composition, Music Literature, and Musicology fall under
> these. In these degrees, performance is part of the program, but is
> secondary to academic work. The degree is generally conferred based
> on a thesis or major composition, presented at either a performance
> or in a lecture recital to one's peers. Some schools break these down
> as degrees in their own right. At the top level, these are often PhD
> programs.
To what extent is this considered proper preparation for a public
school music teaching career?
> Music Education is designed for the group music teacher, either
> elementary or secondary. The highest degree conferred is usually in
> education-either an EdS or PhD.
>
> All of these have subspecialties as well, and double majors are common
> (In my case, Woodwind Performance/Ped and Musicology)
>"John Leslie" <jo...@jlc.net> wrote in message
>>
>> Music involves many disciplines, from performance, to teaching, to
>> composing and arranging, to musicology (and others I've omitted).
>> High school is necessarily limited in what it can offer.
>
> There are specialized performing arts high school programs in some
> large cities, considered to be city magnet schools-the NYC School of
> the Performing Arts is the best known example. In Memphis, we have
> performing arts optional schools at all levels.
My apologies: I was aware of NYC, but not Memphis. In any case, I
didn't mean to ignore specialized high schools -- merely to make a
general statement about most high schools.
--
John Leslie <jo...@jlc.net>
Donna Metler
In general, most of these classes meet on the edges of the school day-I have
one of the oddest teaching schedules out there, because I teach during the
morning and afternoon homeroom periods, and my "homerooms" are actually
academic classes-and change daily, since I don't have the same students
every day. Each of my students is assigned to two homerooms, and gets
counted on the attendance scanner cards in two places-which means that there
was probably some interesting programming on the computer end, because a
child can be considered present with me, absent in their grade 6 homeroom,
but still needs to be counted present in the computer. My classes start 20
minutes before AM homeroom, and end 20 minutes after afternoon homeroom
(which squeezes a 50 minute class period out of the homeroom block, but
still allows the students to catch busses). Choral music is ESD-it is
considered a class, and there is a grade, but is held the first block after
the end of the school day. Since about 85% of our students participate in
ESD due to the character of the school, it isn't a big deal to have a class
then-ESD is specialty classes, athletics, study halls, computer lab time,
library time, and tutoring and primarily serves as after school daycare. I
also teach applied/sectionals during the student lunch periods-a student
will sign up for the lesson, grab a sandwich, and have a music class in the
last part of the period. My general music classes meet only 1x/week, during
the academic blocks.
As far as schedule changes and auditions, they're very informal. Before
school starts, in the days after student registration and before classes
start, I do assignment auditions. These work the same way kindergarten
screening does-the parent signs for a time before school starts-the student
plays whatever he/she wants, plus sightreading at the student's level. I
handle this much the same way the military bands do-let the student play
first, then give graded material until the student reaches their natural
limit. I place from there. At my school, the most common scenerio is the
student who can play by ear very well, but who can't read music-for whom I
have a set "Deal"-basically, individual tutoring on music reading and
theory, with the goal of getting into the higher level group as soon as the
student can pass the sight reading exam. Almost all my kids who come in with
these skills manage this within about the first month or two.
The program is leveled-each teacher has their own system, but I use one
which is similar to the belts used in martial arts-there are set levels,
each of which has a color designation. Each level has specific skills and
tests which must be mastered, and it is a pass/not yet mastery. When you
pass the level appropriate for the next group, you move to the next group. I
do not do "chair" assignments at the elementary level-because I don't want
all the strongest players on first part and all the weakest on 2nd part.
Rather, I assign seats based on skills, so that weaker players are next to
stronger players, and I reassign parts on every piece so that students are
playing the first part, which tends to be higher (and often is the melody
for treble clef instruments) on one piece, the second on another, and the
third the next day.
My students handle it well. There is no "I'm on green, and you're on yellow,
naa naa naaa"-it is simply that you work at whatever level you are at-and
you attend whatever classes are most appropriate to your level. If you pass
another level, I simply send a set form to the homeroom teacher and the
attendance office saying "student X, id # xxxxxxxxxx will now be attending
band tuesday Am and thursday PM"-and we go from there. If I have one really
advanced student, the student attends the highest group available, plus
private lessons to improve skills.
The grading for both band and choir is a summative evaluation, which rates
the students on skills like music reading, rhythmic accuracy, intonation,
technical proficiency,etc. The students are rated as Advanced (above
required level-almost never used unless the student is very uneven, because
the preference is to bump the level), Proficient (at level) and Improving
(below level) .The areas evaluated are the same no matter if the child is in
beginning band 1 or performing band 4-but the skills required to be
demonstrated differ depending on ability. If a student begins at beginning I
and makes it to intermediate 2 by the end of the year, their evaluation at
any grading period will reflect their level at that point, and it will be
clear where the student is. I have one student changing instruments at the
semester, which means that his evaluation indicates the change and that he
is starting at beginner I for the second time, on the second instrument.
It sounds complicated, but really, it isn't. I know where each of my
students are at each point, and so do they. The challenge is to have enough
levels available, but because private instruction is always an option, the
faster or slower student can be accommodated if need be.
>
> >> Herman Rubin <hru...@odds.stat.purdue.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> At least at some universities, there are separate degrees in music
> >>> and in music performance.
> >
> > Here's what is offered at most universities in my experience.
> >
> > Music Performance and Pedagogy is designed for the performing musician
> > and the professional applied teacher (individual). It is performance
> > based, with the primary examinations being juried performances, and
> > junior and senior recitals are required. Jazz Studies is a music
> > performance degree. Piano Pedagogy is also generally part of the
> > performance department. The top degree conferred is the DMA (Doctor
> > of Musical Arts)
>
> To what extent is this considered proper preparation for a public
> school music teaching career?
It isn't. These are performers, and teaching is a secondary thing if at all.
The appropriate degree for public school music teachers is a Music Education
degree. Double majors are common, but they are just that, double majors.
Performance majors generally teach only privately.
>
> > BS or BA music degrees are academic degrees-Music History, Music
> > Theory and Composition, Music Literature, and Musicology fall under
> > these. In these degrees, performance is part of the program, but is
> > secondary to academic work. The degree is generally conferred based
> > on a thesis or major composition, presented at either a performance
> > or in a lecture recital to one's peers. Some schools break these down
> > as degrees in their own right. At the top level, these are often PhD
> > programs.
>
> To what extent is this considered proper preparation for a public
> school music teaching career?
>
See above. This is not a degree leading to a teaching certificate, and most
people getting such a degree don't really plan to teach below the
college/university level-or at least at a music-focused high school.
> > Music Education is designed for the group music teacher, either
> > elementary or secondary. The highest degree conferred is usually in
> > education-either an EdS or PhD.
> >
This is the degree designed for a music teacher. In my case, I actually had
the academic/performance degrees as my bachelors-but the work my teaching
credential is based on, and the actually useful classes, are those I did in
graduate school in music education. Having the academic and performance
skills is nice, but having a degree in woodwind performance doesn't help
much when faced with a beginner having trouble in areas you haven't had
trouble with since age 10-and it is totally useless when a student brings
their trumpet to class!
The point is that there are different music degrees, and that while the main
core is the same, the specializations are radically different. The best
comparison I've seen is engineering coursework-where an EE person probably
has some of the same knowledge and skills as a Mechanical or Civil
engineer-but when push comes to shove, you don't want the Electrical
engineer designing a bridge, or the civil engineer designing a circuit
board.