US high school seniors among worst in math and science

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David L. Hanson

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Feb 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/27/98
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In article <34F63F...@naturalbridge.com>, ch...@naturalbridge.com wrote:
>Ray Fischer wrote:
>
>> Because in other countries, kids who don't pass qualifying exams
>> aren't even allowed into high school. A good way to improve test
>> scores is to eliminate all the bad students. Something which the
>> US does not do.
>
>I believe that they controlled for or corrected for this effect in
>this study. Notably, even the students in our "advanced" classes
>compared badly to students in "advanced" classes in other countries.

Yes, they did. From the Department of Education executive summary:

>****************************************************
>Executive Summary of "Pursuing Excellence: A Study
>of U.S. 12th-Grade Mathematics & Science Achievement
>in International Context" (February 24, 1998)
>****************************************************
> snip, snip
>
> TIMSS is a fair & accurate comparison of mathematics &
> science achievement in the participating nations. The
> students who participated in TIMSS were scientifically
> selected to accurately represent students in their
> respective nations. The entire assessment process was
> scrutinized by international technical review committees to
> ensure its adherence to established standards. Those
> nations in which irregularities arose, including the United
> States, are clearly noted in this & other TIMSS reports.
>
> Criticisms of previous international studies comparing
> students near the end of secondary school are not valid for
> TIMSS. Because the high enrollment rates for secondary
> education in the United States are typical of other TIMSS
> countries, our general population is not being compared to
> more select groups in other countries. Further, the strict
> quality controls ensured that the sample of students taking
> the general knowledge assessments was representative of all
> students at the end of secondary school, not just those in
> academically-oriented programs.

David L. Hanson
dha...@hal-pc.rog
http://www.hal-pc.org/~dhanson
"Ye MUST be born again"

Hobdbcgv

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Feb 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/27/98
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re: al capone, many prisons, and just two schools

You confuse schools which teach academic subjects with schools that teach
useful subjects appreciated by a narrow segment of our soceity- most prisons
are great schools for learning the mental side of jungle survival, free-market
trading ("black-marketing"), smuggling, learning to take any gratification
immediately for fear it will be lost, and skill improvement in those areas the
rest of society considers illegal -
Most prisoners leave prison with a rich and varied experience, as would most
persons who spend a long time in an active crowded environment, with much
learning - unfortunately, if we had them learn something we felt was useful, it
would probably be better for society than have them learn from their peers -

We build many schools for the convicted, we just CALL them prisons.

but, hey, if it all makes greedy old republican farts feel good..... they'll
be dead by the time the rest of us have to deal with it ---and we all know the
benefit of all the minimum wage service personnel hired to keep those otherwise
minimum wage persons off the unemployed statistics--- makes for full employment

David L. Hanson

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Feb 28, 1998, 3:00:00 AM2/28/98
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In article <34f6cd95...@news.snowcrest.net>, zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp Weasel) wrote:

>AMERICA is hostile to science and math: ever heard of any other
>country where 15% of the population are religious fanatics who try to
>claim that Evolution is a rival religion? Outside of the middle east,
>of course, and we all know what a scientific powerhouse THAT area is.

You are incorrect in your assumptions. People who believe the Bible instead
of the devil have historically and still today are interested in and study the
wonderful world that God has made (in seven 24 hour days I will add). Yale
and other great private universities were founded by God fearing men. A God
fearing young person may still understand physics, chemistry, biology, and
math without believing the lie of evolution.

I will at the same time admit that virtually all of us including
fundamentalist Christians have suffered from the anti-intellectualism in the
culture. A few years ago I asked a math teacher at a Christian high school
how much time he spent teaching proofs. He said very little primarily because
most of the children found it too difficult. He also said 10 years before
that was not true. In my opinion, educating the mind is not important enough
to most families, whether they are God fearing or not.


Philip Nicholls

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Mar 1, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/1/98
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On 26 Feb 1998 17:46:40 GMT, zarl...@conan.ids.net (Michael Zarlenga)
wrote:

>Michael Zarlenga (zarl...@conan.ids.net) wrote:
>: The fourth-grade results, released last June, showed the United States
>: to be above the international average and were hailed as evidence that
>: the attention of recent years to improving American schools was
>: starting to pay off.
>:
>: The eighth-grade results, released seven months earlier, had raised
>: some concern because Americans dipped below the international average
>: in mathematics although they scored above it in science.
>:
>: But the latest results, for high school seniors, are being greeted
>: with shock and dismay by large numbers of educators and officials who
>: see them as evidence of a fundamental national failing.
>
>In other words, the longer a child spends in the US
>public school system, the further that students falls
>behind the rest of the world.

An interesting note. The study was made of "high school seniors" and
did not specify (perhaps I missed it) if those seniors came from
public or private high schools.

Since the study focuses on students who have taken advanced placement
exams it is interesting to note that public high school students
actually score slightly better on AP exams that private school
students.

>: Those who carried out the study said there were no clear or simple
>: explanations for the low level of American performance. "It is not
>: class size or homework or social life or television," said Ina V.S.
>: Mullin of Boston College, co-deputy director of the study. "Around the
>: world, everybody watches television."
>
>Does "everybody" have the NEA and AFT and employed-for-
>life unionized teachers?

Most of the schools that score highest in this study have centralized,
state-run schools and curriculum and very strong teachers unions.

Joni J Rathbun

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
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In a previous article, zarl...@conan.ids.net (Michael Zarlenga) says:
>
>
>: And yet teacher's unions are stronger in all the countrys that
>: outperformed the US on the TIMSS last week. Imagine that.
>
>Do they protect bad teachers and make sure they're employed for
>life in public schools as the teachers unions in the United States
>do?
>
Is it a union thing? Don't the voters have the option to vote
tenure out for public educators? While tenure is greatly
misunderstood and the only ones keeping poor teachers in
place for years and years are administrators who fail
to take the necessary steps to help or remove the
poor teacher, the state of Oregon recently voted to do
away with tenure. Nothing the union could do about it.


--
-- Joni Rathbun | jrat...@orednet.org | lincolncity.org/schools --
Monthly Newsletter: Bookmarks
http://lincolncity.org/bookmarks
-- If you need a vacation you should see the state I'm in! --

Ted Johnson

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
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Joni J Rathbun wrote in message <6def5o$l...@ednet2.orednet.org>...

>
>In a previous article, zarl...@conan.ids.net (Michael Zarlenga) says:
>>
>>Do they protect bad teachers and make sure they're employed for
>>life in public schools as the teachers unions in the United States
>>do?
>>
>Is it a union thing? Don't the voters have the option to vote
>tenure out for public educators?


Joni: They certainly do, and Mike knows that.

>While tenure is greatly
>misunderstood and the only ones keeping poor teachers in
>place for years and years are administrators who fail
>to take the necessary steps to help or remove the
>poor teacher, the state of Oregon recently voted to do
>away with tenure. Nothing the union could do about it.

Of course it couldn't. Mike ascribes powers and abilities to the unions
that they don't possess (and never have). Why he does so is his own
business, but he shows his lack of connection with reality every time he
makes such outlandish statements.

tj
ted.j...@worldnet.att.net
t...@delphi.com
http://people.delphi.com/tj3/

hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
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On 2 Mar 1998, Michael Zarlenga wrote:

> Andrew Hall (ah...@remus.cs.uml.edu) wrote:
> : Michael> One more thing ... The New York Times recently ran an
> : Michael> article that cited slowly but steadily rising IQ scores in
> : Michael> America for the last 40 years, at least (they went back to
> : Michael> the 1950s).
>
> : Michael> That fact, taken in addition to the pititful showing of
> : Michael> seniors on the TIMSS can indicate only one thing ... that
> : Michael> this poor inter- national showing of US seniors is a
> : Michael> problem of education, not intelligence.
>
> : Clearly this was not clear to the writers of
> : the article, as they made clear in the headline
> : of the article.
>
> Yes, I know, but to listen to the "experts" who earn
> their livings in the public education system and on the
> backs of the taxpayers, there are never simple problems
> or solutions to problems (although such perennial ex-
> cuses as smaller class size, better teacher benefits and
> more money always seem to satiate the "experts" ... that
> is, until the next generation of underducated kids shames
> us in international standings.
>
> To the "experts," everything always seems to be a unique,
> complex enviro-socio-educational problem that requires
> years of studies and hundreds of thousands (or millions)
> of dollars in research.
>
> That's the modus operandi of the public education busi-
> ness in this country and has been for at least the last
> 2 decades.

They must have learned it from the defense industry.

--
Buddy K


Alan

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Mar 2, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/2/98
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gdy5...@prairie.lakes.com wrote:

> well with the exception of Jimmy Carters 4years, the decade of the
> 70's and 80's were under the control of the republicons. Thank you
> Mike for pointing out what a bunch of incompetent jackals they are.
>
>

"snip" to the point:

gdy,

Contrary to your post, the Presidency of the 70's/80's (except the Carter
years) was held by a republican. Congress (e.g., funding) was controlled by
democrats.

Except for a brief stint in the '50's, the democrats have controlled Congress
since the 1930's. Please re-read your history. Your statement, "Thank you
Mike for pointing out what a bunch of incompetent jackals they are." IS
correct, as it applies to Congress controlled by the democrats from (approx.
1930 - 1993).

Alan

> __________________________________________________
> Let The White Rose enlighten you.
>
> http://prairie.lakes.com/~gdy52150/whiterose.htm
> gdy weasel
> ___________________________________________________
> Mike Ejercito bumbles another:
>
> >National health care would make little difference. People who can not
> >afford it will still not get it.


Herman Rubin

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
to

In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.980302...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
<hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:


>On 2 Mar 1998, Michael Zarlenga wrote:

>> Andrew Hall (ah...@remus.cs.uml.edu) wrote:

....................

>> To the "experts," everything always seems to be a unique,
>> complex enviro-socio-educational problem that requires
>> years of studies and hundreds of thousands (or millions)
>> of dollars in research.

>> That's the modus operandi of the public education busi-
>> ness in this country and has been for at least the last
>> 2 decades.

>They must have learned it from the defense industry.

Except that the educationists have been doing this for not
just 2 decades but 6, and the defense industry was not much
of a factor before WWII.

The educations tore out the old curriculum oriented
program below the high school level back then, replacing
it with age grouping and teaching to possibly not quite
the lowest common denominator. After WWII, the high
schools were brought into this as well; after all, how
could the high schools flunk the majority of students
who were getting good grades before?

After the poor results started coming in, they insisted
that only their people could make any changes.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

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Mar 3, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/3/98
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On 3 Mar 1998, Herman Rubin wrote:

> In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.980302...@osf1.gmu.edu>,
> <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>
>
> >On 2 Mar 1998, Michael Zarlenga wrote:
>
> >> Andrew Hall (ah...@remus.cs.uml.edu) wrote:
>
> ....................
>
> >> To the "experts," everything always seems to be a unique,
> >> complex enviro-socio-educational problem that requires
> >> years of studies and hundreds of thousands (or millions)
> >> of dollars in research.
>
> >> That's the modus operandi of the public education busi-
> >> ness in this country and has been for at least the last
> >> 2 decades.
>
> >They must have learned it from the defense industry.
>
> Except that the educationists have been doing this for not
> just 2 decades but 6, and the defense industry was not much
> of a factor before WWII.

Where did the "educationists" get the millions of dollars for research?

>
> The educations tore out the old curriculum oriented
> program below the high school level back then, replacing
> it with age grouping and teaching to possibly not quite
> the lowest common denominator.

And it was so bad we were able to win WWII?

> After WWII, the high
> schools were brought into this as well; after all, how
> could the high schools flunk the majority of students
> who were getting good grades before?
>
> After the poor results started coming in, they insisted
> that only their people could make any changes.

Everybody insists that only their people can make changes.

--
Buddy K


hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

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Mar 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/5/98
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On 5 Mar 1998, Michael Zarlenga wrote:

> Bill Duncan (bi...@nospam.com) wrote:
> : It's easy for parents to place the blame on the schools, but how many
> : actually take any sort action to improve their kid's education?
>
> Yes, it is, especially when 4th graders did so well, 8th graders
> did just about average and 12th graders were down at the bottom,
> in international rankings.
>
> I'm still waiting to hear one single explanation that vindicates
> the schools and teachers while, at the same time, explaining why
> 4th graders did so well.
>
>

You might check the percentage of the entire school-age population that is
tested at each level. But there is no doubt that the K-12 schools in the
more welfare-state oriented countries are better. However, the US excels
in graduate education - go to any college campus and look at the number of
non-natives.


> And many would LIKE to be ABLE to take action ... support for ele-
> mentary school vouchers is very high in many of the poorest neigh-
> borhoods with the worst public school. In D.C. approx 80% of all
> voters support school vouchers.

If this were true, they'd do it tomorrow. Marion Barry can smell a
good political gimmick like most people can smell Rush Limbaugh.


>
> They WANT to do something to help their kids, but are limited by
> lack of funds.

What they WANT is for outsiders to refrain from dumping their social
engineering voucher programs down their thorats.

--
Buddy K


Roger Shouse

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Mar 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/5/98
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In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.98030...@osf1.gmu.edu> <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> writes:
>From: <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu>
>Subject: Re: US high school seniors among worst in math and science
>Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:49:56 -0500

>On 5 Mar 1998, Michael Zarlenga wrote:

>> Bill Duncan (bi...@nospam.com) wrote:
>> : It's easy for parents to place the blame on the schools, but how many
>> : actually take any sort action to improve their kid's education?
>>
>> Yes, it is, especially when 4th graders did so well, 8th graders
>> did just about average and 12th graders were down at the bottom,
>> in international rankings.
>>
>> I'm still waiting to hear one single explanation that vindicates
>> the schools and teachers while, at the same time, explaining why
>> 4th graders did so well.
>>
>>

>You might check the percentage of the entire school-age population that is
>tested at each level. But there is no doubt that the K-12 schools in the
>more welfare-state oriented countries are better. However, the US excels
>in graduate education - go to any college campus and look at the number of
>non-natives.

Welfare-state oriented nations like Japan and Taiwan? Sorry, there's no
significant link here.


>> And many would LIKE to be ABLE to take action ... support for ele-
>> mentary school vouchers is very high in many of the poorest neigh-
>> borhoods with the worst public school. In D.C. approx 80% of all
>> voters support school vouchers.

>If this were true, they'd do it tomorrow. Marion Barry can smell a
>good political gimmick like most people can smell Rush Limbaugh.

I hate to let facts interfere with your speculation, but a recent Stanford
study found that 79% of inner-city poor favor vouchers (see Commentary,
October 1997, p. 30). After years of snorting coke, perhaps Marion's sense of
smell ain't what it used to be.


>>
>> They WANT to do something to help their kids, but are limited by
>> lack of funds.

>What they WANT is for outsiders to refrain from dumping their social
>engineering voucher programs down their thorats.

>--
>Buddy K

It appears that when it comes to being the voice of the downtrodden, you've
got a tin ear.

Roger Shouse

hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

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Mar 5, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/5/98
to


On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Roger Shouse wrote:

> In article <Pine.OSF.3.96.98030...@osf1.gmu.edu> <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> writes:
> >From: <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu>
> >Subject: Re: US high school seniors among worst in math and science
> >Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:49:56 -0500
>
>
>
> >On 5 Mar 1998, Michael Zarlenga wrote:
>
> >> Bill Duncan (bi...@nospam.com) wrote:
> >> : It's easy for parents to place the blame on the schools, but how many
> >> : actually take any sort action to improve their kid's education?
> >>
> >> Yes, it is, especially when 4th graders did so well, 8th graders
> >> did just about average and 12th graders were down at the bottom,
> >> in international rankings.
> >>
> >> I'm still waiting to hear one single explanation that vindicates
> >> the schools and teachers while, at the same time, explaining why
> >> 4th graders did so well.
> >>
> >>
>
> >You might check the percentage of the entire school-age population that is
> >tested at each level. But there is no doubt that the K-12 schools in the
> >more welfare-state oriented countries are better. However, the US excels
> >in graduate education - go to any college campus and look at the number of
> >non-natives.
>
> Welfare-state oriented nations like Japan and Taiwan?

Yes. And Europe.

> Sorry, there's no
> significant link here.
>

There sure is as much as you'd like to believe otherwise.

> >> And many would LIKE to be ABLE to take action ... support for ele-
> >> mentary school vouchers is very high in many of the poorest neigh-
> >> borhoods with the worst public school. In D.C. approx 80% of all
> >> voters support school vouchers.
>
> >If this were true, they'd do it tomorrow. Marion Barry can smell a
> >good political gimmick like most people can smell Rush Limbaugh.
>
> I hate to let facts interfere with your speculation, but a recent Stanford
> study found that 79% of inner-city poor favor vouchers (see Commentary,
> October 1997, p. 30).

And all of these "inner-city poor" in the study reside in Washington, DC
or are you giving out opinion instead of facts again?


> After years of snorting coke, perhaps Marion's sense of
> smell ain't what it used to be.

What people say to someone doing a "study" and asking questions in a
certain manner making certain assumptions & what people do are 2 different
things. Preferences are revealed in the market and at the polling booth.
Revealed preference says you are wrong.

Funny that the Control Board doesn't believe you either. Or the general
running the school system.


>
>
> >>
> >> They WANT to do something to help their kids, but are limited by
> >> lack of funds.
>
> >What they WANT is for outsiders to refrain from dumping their social
> >engineering voucher programs down their thorats.
>
> >--
> >Buddy K
>
> It appears that when it comes to being the voice of the downtrodden, you've
> got a tin ear.

I let them speak for themselves. They don't need me to be their voice and
they don't want you dumping your agenda down their throats. If they want
vouchers, they'll do it themselves through their elected representatives.

Funny how you right wing neanderthals are always the "champions of the
downtrodden" when you have an agenda that favors the rich. Funny how the
"downtrodden" don't vote for candidates supporting your rightwing agenda.

--
Buddy K


hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

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Mar 6, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/6/98
to


On Fri, 6 Mar 1998, Zepp Weasel wrote:

> On 5 Mar 1998 17:32:36 GMT, zarl...@conan.ids.net (Michael Zarlenga)
> wrote:
>
> >Zepp Weasel (zepphol...@snowcrest.net) wrote:
> >: On 2 Mar 1998 14:11:22 GMT, zarl...@conan.ids.net (Michael Zarlenga)
> >: wrote:
> >
> >: >One more thing ... The New York Times recently ran an article
> >: >that cited slowly but steadily rising IQ scores in America for
> >: >the last 40 years, at least (they went back to the 1950s).
> >: >
> >: >That fact, taken in addition to the pititful showing of seniors
> >: >on the TIMSS can indicate only one thing ... that this poor inter-
> >: >national showing of US seniors is a problem of education, not
> >: >intelligence.
> >: >
> >: >For whetever reason, US seniors are not dumb, but they are poorly
> >: >educated.
> >: >
> >: >That makes the test results an even more damning indictment of
> >: >the nation's teachers unions and public schools.
> >: >
> >: >By the way, does anyone here know what the biggest labor union
> >: >in the nation is? Is it the Teamsters? The UAW? ?
> >
> >: You must have had a change of heart about centralized public schools
> >: and teachers' unions. After all, every single country that beat us in
> >: the TIMSS scores had centralized public education and strong teachers'
> >: unions.
> >
> >Not at all.
> >
> >I have no problem with labor unions in general, in fact
> >fully support American laborers' freedom to unionize, if
> >they wish to.
>
> As long as they don't try to actually. . . you know . . . ASSERT
> themselves in any way.
> >
> >My problem lies with some US labor unions in particular.
> >
> Uh huh.
>
> >The NEA and AFT are two of them. They actively work to
> >cheat both the taxpayers and the students, the former out
> >of money and the latter out of an education.
> >
> Oh, Mike, you stud! Tell us, tell us, how are they doing this
> nefarious thing?
>
> >In addition, many labor unions use illegal tactics to black-
> >mail/extort/coerce taxpayers and employers. That's unaccept-
> >able, IMO, yet it's par for the course with the NEA and AFT
> >in my state, where illegal teachers strikes are an almost
> >annual occurrence.
>
> You mean, things like collective bargaining, and demaning an appeals
> process in disciplinary matters, and protections from spurious job
> terminations. That kind of blackmail and extortion?

You have to understand that pseudo-libertarians like Mike don't recognize
these as rights.

--
Buddy K


Michael Zarlenga

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Mar 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/8/98
to

hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu wrote:
: > Yes, it is, especially when 4th graders did so well, 8th graders

: > did just about average and 12th graders were down at the bottom,
: > in international rankings.
: >
: > I'm still waiting to hear one single explanation that vindicates
: > the schools and teachers while, at the same time, explaining why
: > 4th graders did so well.

: You might check the percentage of the entire school-age population that is
: tested at each level.

I did. Now explain what you think the correlation is; I don't
see it.


: > And many would LIKE to be ABLE to take action ... support for ele-


: > mentary school vouchers is very high in many of the poorest neigh-
: > borhoods with the worst public school. In D.C. approx 80% of all
: > voters support school vouchers.

: If this were true, they'd do it tomorrow. Marion Barry can smell a
: good political gimmick like most people can smell Rush Limbaugh.

It is true and they probably will do it, eventually, but not
tomorrow. Marion Barry cannot simply order it.

--
-- Mike Zarlenga
finger zarl...@conan.ids.net for PGP public key

Impeaching Bill Clinton for perjury in a civil case is like
prosecuting Al Capone for income tax evasion.

Van

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Mar 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/8/98
to

In article <6dtlor$g...@ednet2.orednet.org>,

jrat...@orednet.org (Joni J Rathbun) wrote:
>
>
> In a previous article, zarl...@conan.ids.net (Michael Zarlenga) says:
> >
> >Van (83j...@usa.net) wrote:

I did not,.. I wrote none of the following quoted material -- please
watch attribs

> >: >: The reason you don't get more great teachers
> >: >: is because you don't pay for them. We'll pay garbage
> >: >: collectors $30,000 a year, while teachers just
> >: >: starting out around here get about $21,000. I'm not saying
> >: >: garbage collectors
> >: >
> >: >My state pays teachers an average of $42,160 per year (for 9 mos.
> >: >work).
> >
> Averages, of course, don't tell the whole story. If 42k is the
> average salary, then half the teachers in RI are making less
> and half are making more. It usually takes quite a few years
> to reach these *average* salaries. When I began teaching, my
> salary was such that my children could have qualified for
> federal reduced lunch prices had I filled out the paperwork.
> After 13 years, I'm doing a bit better and do not complain
> about my wages as a rule. If, however, I calculated my time
> by the hour for hours actually worked, I can tell you I made
> more per hour waiting tables than teaching. That's to say,
> you can stop with the 9 months day dream. I work most weekends
> and most nights. And I always look forward to my unpaid
> vacation days because it means I can get more work done.
> I'm far from alone.
>
> You may not like the "quality" of my work but you can't
> complain about the hours of work you get in exchange for
> my salary.

I'm with you all the way. My son is a high school math teacher and he
woks long hours. His pay is supplemented by involvement in extra
ciricular activities in science and athletics, which helps. His wife
works fewer hours and makes more in health care. He enjoys his work
though, and is dedicated.

Van
--


>
> --
> -- Joni Rathbun | jrat...@orednet.org | lincolncity.org/schools --
> Monthly Newsletter: Bookmarks
> http://lincolncity.org/bookmarks
> -- If you need a vacation you should see the state I'm in! --


.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"When dogma enters the brain,
all intellectual activity ceases"

-- Robert Anton Wilson

http://www.netusa1.net/~jbvm/

------------------------------------------------------------

hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

unread,
Mar 8, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/8/98
to


On 8 Mar 1998, Michael Zarlenga wrote:

> hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu wrote:
> : > Yes, it is, especially when 4th graders did so well, 8th graders
> : > did just about average and 12th graders were down at the bottom,
> : > in international rankings.
> : >
> : > I'm still waiting to hear one single explanation that vindicates
> : > the schools and teachers while, at the same time, explaining why
> : > 4th graders did so well.
>
> : You might check the percentage of the entire school-age population that is
> : tested at each level.
>
> I did. Now explain what you think the correlation is; I don't
> see it.

The US probably has a greater % of its population going to 12th grade than
other countries - i.e., the equivalent dummies in other countries have
already left school. There is sort of a law of diminishing returns as
more people stay in school.


>
>
> : > And many would LIKE to be ABLE to take action ... support for ele-
> : > mentary school vouchers is very high in many of the poorest neigh-
> : > borhoods with the worst public school. In D.C. approx 80% of all
> : > voters support school vouchers.
>
> : If this were true, they'd do it tomorrow. Marion Barry can smell a
> : good political gimmick like most people can smell Rush Limbaugh.
>
> It is true

Proof?


> and they probably will do it, eventually, but not
> tomorrow. Marion Barry cannot simply order it.

If 80% of the population really wanted it, they would do it tomorrow. I
suspect there are some something for nothing aspects to any survey that
was done.

--
Buddy K


Rob Hafernik

unread,
Mar 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/9/98
to

In article <3503ee2...@news.mv.net>, junk...@moreira.mv.com (Alberto
Moreira) wrote:

> Please tell me why a public teacher should not have exactly the same
> rights as any other professional in this country.

That's right, but I don't think most "professional" people in the US are
union members. I know I'm not and never will be. NON-union professionals
have the most freedom of all: we can just tell our boss to "take this job
and shove it" and go find another one. If a company treats its workers
poorly, then they should quit.

This entire subject, however, is a holy one and should only be thrashed
out in a thread dedicated to the purpose. There, people can expend their
energies shooting at each other (but never convincing each other) and
leave the other threads free of the crossfire.

Philip Nicholls

unread,
Mar 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/9/98
to

On 8 Mar 1998 05:45:46 GMT, de...@tiac.net (Charles Demas) wrote:


>
>Mike lives in Rhode Island I believe.

Well that's interesting. I teach in New York and I know teachers are
payed more in New York than in Rhode Island, yet the average teacher
salary in New York is about $42,000. This average is taken from
teachers in "mid career" which means someone with a masters degree who
has been teaching for 16 years.

Dropped by the AFT web site and found that the average teacher in RI
actually makes 39,000 and change. This again is a mid-career
individual who has been teaching 16-18 years.


>FWIW, in Massachusetts, there seems to be an oversupply of teachers,
>at least at the elementary school level. This is based upon the
>difficulty that my sister has had in finding a teaching position
>now that her children are older and she is now willing to resume
>teaching full time again. She has been substituting for years and
>has great recommendations, a bachelor's degree in elementary education,
>and a master's degree in physical education.

Same in New York. It took me two years of substitute teaching,
applying and interviewing.

>BTW, I am not looking for a job for my sister. She lives in
>Framingham, and has recently found a full time teaching job, near home,
>which I imagine was one of her criteria. Years ago, before she was
>married, she lived in Boston, and taught in the Boston school system.

I am not looking for a job either. I am happy where I am and look
forward be being called "Old Mr. Nicholls" someday.

hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

unread,
Mar 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/9/98
to


On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, John Parker wrote:

> On Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:28:10 GMT, gdy5...@prairie.lakes.com
> (gdy5...@prairie.lakes.com) wrote:
>
> >
> >I don't disagree with you Jen but I'm going to throw this in here.
> >This week I was talking with a friend and neighbor who is a non
> >traditional student, he is in his late 30's and went back to finish
> >his degree 2 years ago. He was a bio major and looking towards a
> >medical or pharmacology degree as a end result and has been working
> >part time in a pharmacy. He told me he's switching his major to
> >aviation.
> > The reason for his switch, he can't live with the absurd
> >regulations of the HMOs. He claims that the HMOs approval of payment
> >for some drugs and the exclusion of others is arbirtary and asinine.
> >Now I'm wondering how many other pre med students are switching just
> >when the number of med schools should be increasing due to the aging
> >baby boomers. If there are many this could spell some real trouble in
> >another 20 years.
>
> Jesus, Gdybozo, don't you know that prediction of long term trends
> isn't one of the things you do so well?

You're hardly an expert in this field.


> I guess it wasn't for your
> friend and neighbor either, since you both are back in school trying
> to correct your earlier mistakes. Tell your buddy, not to worry,
> since damned few of you "lets go back to school cause we aint makin
> it" bozos do much better on their second try either. You two might be
> better off pulling a Kilpatrick and just staying in school
> indefinitely.

Maybe he should have pulled a Parker & dropped out of high school back
when laborer jobs were available. But then he might go through his entire
life as ignorant and jealous of those with educations as Parker is.

--
Buddy K


John Parker

unread,
Mar 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/9/98
to

On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:18:54 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:

>
>>
>> Jesus, Gdybozo, don't you know that prediction of long term trends
>> isn't one of the things you do so well?
>
>You're hardly an expert in this field.

Well actually, Buddy, I am. Do it for a living, I do.

>> I guess it wasn't for your
>> friend and neighbor either, since you both are back in school trying
>> to correct your earlier mistakes. Tell your buddy, not to worry,
>> since damned few of you "lets go back to school cause we aint makin
>> it" bozos do much better on their second try either. You two might be
>> better off pulling a Kilpatrick and just staying in school
>> indefinitely.
>
>Maybe he should have pulled a Parker & dropped out of high school back
>when laborer jobs were available. But then he might go through his entire
>life as ignorant and jealous of those with educations as Parker is.

I can't be jealous of people with an education, Buddy, since I have
one. The difference between you and me, however, is that I use mine
to make my living.

To respond in a logical manner to your illogical posting is
not logical, but it is great fun to add to your obvious
confusion. Remove the E from my Email address.

-John Parker

hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

unread,
Mar 9, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/9/98
to


On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, John Parker wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:18:54 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >>
> >> Jesus, Gdybozo, don't you know that prediction of long term trends
> >> isn't one of the things you do so well?
> >
> >You're hardly an expert in this field.
>
> Well actually, Buddy, I am. Do it for a living, I do.

The utility's office betting pool doesn't count, Parker.


>
> >> I guess it wasn't for your
> >> friend and neighbor either, since you both are back in school trying
> >> to correct your earlier mistakes. Tell your buddy, not to worry,
> >> since damned few of you "lets go back to school cause we aint makin
> >> it" bozos do much better on their second try either. You two might be
> >> better off pulling a Kilpatrick and just staying in school
> >> indefinitely.
> >
> >Maybe he should have pulled a Parker & dropped out of high school back
> >when laborer jobs were available. But then he might go through his entire
> >life as ignorant and jealous of those with educations as Parker is.
>
> I can't be jealous of people with an education, Buddy, since I have
> one.

8th grade doesn't count as much as it used to, Parker.


> The difference between you and me, however, is that I use mine
> to make my living.

We know - you have a strong back and a weak mind.

--
Buddy K

"I don't expect anyone that writes "learned" as "learnt" to understand
what a quality education is all about, Gdybozo, let alone logic."

Parker, flunking a spelling flame.


John Parker

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:31:26 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:

>
>
>On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, John Parker wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:18:54 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Jesus, Gdybozo, don't you know that prediction of long term trends
>> >> isn't one of the things you do so well?
>> >
>> >You're hardly an expert in this field.
>>
>> Well actually, Buddy, I am. Do it for a living, I do.
>
>The utility's office betting pool doesn't count, Parker.


A job's a job, Kilpatrick, I do real well at mine, well enough to
retire younger than you. You ought to put on long pants, wipe your
little pansy ass and try it sometime. Forty some years in school and
yet you just aint quite ready yet, right?

volt...@geocities.com

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:18:54 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:

>
>
>On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, John Parker wrote:
>

>> On Sat, 07 Mar 1998 14:28:10 GMT, gdy5...@prairie.lakes.com
>> (gdy5...@prairie.lakes.com) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I don't disagree with you Jen but I'm going to throw this in here.
>> >This week I was talking with a friend and neighbor who is a non
>> >traditional student, he is in his late 30's and went back to finish
>> >his degree 2 years ago. He was a bio major and looking towards a
>> >medical or pharmacology degree as a end result and has been working
>> >part time in a pharmacy. He told me he's switching his major to
>> >aviation.
>> > The reason for his switch, he can't live with the absurd
>> >regulations of the HMOs. He claims that the HMOs approval of payment
>> >for some drugs and the exclusion of others is arbirtary and asinine.
>> >Now I'm wondering how many other pre med students are switching just
>> >when the number of med schools should be increasing due to the aging
>> >baby boomers. If there are many this could spell some real trouble in
>> >another 20 years.
>>

>> Jesus, Gdybozo, don't you know that prediction of long term trends
>> isn't one of the things you do so well?
>
>You're hardly an expert in this field.

Or is Bob Dole now President, Parker?

>> I guess it wasn't for your
>> friend and neighbor either, since you both are back in school trying
>> to correct your earlier mistakes. Tell your buddy, not to worry,
>> since damned few of you "lets go back to school cause we aint makin
>> it" bozos do much better on their second try either. You two might be
>> better off pulling a Kilpatrick and just staying in school
>> indefinitely.

>Maybe he should have pulled a Parker & dropped out of high school back
>when laborer jobs were available. But then he might go through his entire
>life as ignorant and jealous of those with educations as Parker is.

But getting those guaranteed dividends at the expense of the rate
payers as well.

Jim

Ecrasons l'infame

Join The War On Right Wing Ignorance:
http://home.att.net/~clusterone/

==============================================================================
On 7 Mar 1998 19:13:53 GMT, J.M. Ivler <iv...@net-quest.com> wrote:

"Discrimination isn't about "victims". It is about preferences. Have you
ever taken a course in basic english?"(sic)


On 9 Mar 1998 20:01:27 GMT, J.M. Ivler <iv...@net-quest.com> wrote:

"Martin Luther King was a Civil Rights Leader. He was not a "black leader".


J.M. Ivler <iv...@net-quest.com> was saying...

"No you're just Jim's whore. Now be a good boy, put on the kneepads and say
'Ahh.'"
==============================================================================

Angel Sparrow

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

Angel here:

bj wrote:

I'm with you. I am an electrical engineer (BSEE) I make $50K a year but I

> put in twice the hours a school teacher does. If I could earn $42.1 K a
> year for 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, 185 days a year, I would gladly give
> up the $8K !

Would that my husband was making 42K a year and working 6 hrs a day, 5 days a
week
for 9 months! Leaving out commuting time, he works from 7 AM until 3:30 PM, no
lunch or coffee break. He spends roughly another hour a night grading or
writing tests. Some nights it's
4 hours, some nights it's only 20 minutes, and he always puts in at least 3
hours on a weekend.. Not to mention his weekend seminars, his summer classes,
and other professional development..
He makes $24K/year.

He daily faces hostile vandals, racists of every color, and violent ganstas.
He receives tests
that are turned in without even a name, attitude and threats ranging from
"We'll get you fired" to "we'll get you." He is disrespected to his face, told
he is a poor teacher and accused of racial preference when a black child fails
a test that it turned in blank. All this to teach rural kids basic physics
they don't want to learn and probably will never use.

The rewards come when a student gets a full-ride science scholarship, or scores
high on the ACT/SAT in his field and says "Mr. Sparrow helped a lot." These
are few and far between.

Tell me again how teachers are overpaid and underworked while I stretch 6 oz of
hamburger
into a meal for 4, recycle cans for gas money and wait until midnight for my
husband to finish
writing a test that only half the class will even bother to take. (And they'll
probably cheat. Intellectual honesty is not a commodity these days.)

Angel


Angel Sparrow

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

Angel here:

Loren Petrich wrote:

> In article <6dl9ne$dup$2...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> Mark Gibson <gib...@prairienet.org> wrote:
>
> >Nonsense! All of the parents in my extended family have one
> >member who works and the other who looks after the kids. You are
> >full of shit if you think people can't raise kids properly on
> >a single income. But hey, I knew you were full of shit long ago...
>
> They must have been have upper-middle-class incomes.

Not necessarily, Loren. Our combined income is about $27K, we have 3 kids
and
one of us is always home. I work part time, evenings and weekends. We
raised
2 on 18K, until our student loans kicked in. It's a matterof economizing
and frugility.
We would make more on paper if I worked full time, but day care would take
such
a big bite we'd have less usable income than we do now.

We don't have a new car, fancy clothes or money for a lot of extras. But we

eat steady, our utilities are on, we have a roof ove our heads and are
adequately
dressed.

Angel


hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to


On Tue, 10 Mar 1998, John Parker wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:31:26 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, John Parker wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:18:54 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Jesus, Gdybozo, don't you know that prediction of long term trends
> >> >> isn't one of the things you do so well?
> >> >
> >> >You're hardly an expert in this field.
> >>

> >> Well actually, Buddy, I am. Do it for a living, I do.
> >
> >The utility's office betting pool doesn't count, Parker.
>
>
> A job's a job, Kilpatrick,

So everybody who works is an expert in forecasting?


> I do real well at mine, well enough to
> retire younger than you.

You're sure about that?


> You ought to put on long pants, wipe your
> little pansy ass and try it sometime. Forty some years in school and
> yet you just aint quite ready yet, right?

I did my time regulating utilities, Parker. If FERC ever needs a laborer,
I'll put in a good word for you though.

--
Buddy K


John Parker

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 05:28:49 GMT, volt...@geocities.com wrote:

>But getting those guaranteed dividends at the expense of the rate
>payers as well.


Boring, Kennemur, really boring....can't you come up with something
new, say, once every six months or so?

Rob Hafernik

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

In article <3505462A...@hotmail.com>, vala...@hotmail.com wrote:

<snip>


> Would that my husband was making 42K a year and working 6 hrs a day, 5 days
> a week for 9 months! Leaving out commuting time, he works from 7 AM until
> 3:30 PM, no lunch or coffee break. He spends roughly another hour a night
> grading or writing tests. Some nights it's 4 hours, some nights it's only
> 20 minutes, and he always puts in at least 3 hours on a weekend.. Not to
> mention his weekend seminars, his summer classes, and other professional

> development. He makes $24K/year.
<snip>

Well, let's see. You just described about a 48 hour work week (five
nine-hour days, plus three more hours on the weekend). That's hardly an
unusually long work week for the average professional. Many, many people
routinely work much longer hours and MOST of us probably have peak seasons
or projects where we work longer.

Forget the professional development, nearly all professions require it.
Licensed professions often not only require it, but track it and make a
certain number of hours a requirement for relicensing.

You left off something, though. School is out for two or three months.
Let's be generous and assume that you're husband only has seven weeks off
each year in the summer. I imagine there's another two weeks at Christmas
and another week in spring break and other holidays that most people don't
get, so that's 10 weeks off total. Let's assume the average person works
50 weeks at 40 hours per, for a total of 2000 hours a year. Your husband,
by the stats above, works 42 weeks at 48 hours per for a total of 2016
hours. Just about the same, you see.

I'm not arguing that teachers are overpaid. IMHO, lot's of them don't
make nearly what they should for the work they do. Others are overpaid in
the sense that they shouldn't be paid at all for the lousy job they do.
Either you love it enough to put up with the lousy pay and conditions or
you have some other motive to stick with it (such as stability) or you
quit.

Rob Hafernik

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

In article <3506bbb6...@news.mv.net>, junk...@moreira.mv.com
(Alberto Moreira) wrote:

<snip>
> However, teaching is a funny sort of profession in that respect,
> because there's a monopolist employee - the state, in this case -
> which makes things rather spiny. I can, as a professional, tell my
> boss to take it and shove it; but if that boss is the only employer in
> town, my hands are tied.
<snip>

This is just another reason we should take the monopoly away from the
government and allow for competition in the school systems.

This is hardly rocket science. Try to think of ANY system that works
better WITHOUT competition than with it. I don't think there are any.

Bill Duncan

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

In article <3505490C...@hotmail.com>,

Angel Sparrow <vala...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >Nonsense! All of the parents in my extended family have one
>> >member who works and the other who looks after the kids. You are
>> >full of shit if you think people can't raise kids properly on
>> >a single income. But hey, I knew you were full of shit long ago...
>>
>> They must have been have upper-middle-class incomes.
>
>Not necessarily, Loren. Our combined income is about $27K, we have 3 kids
>and
>one of us is always home. I work part time, evenings and weekends. We
>raised
>2 on 18K, until our student loans kicked in. It's a matterof economizing
>and frugility.
>We would make more on paper if I worked full time, but day care would take
>such
>a big bite we'd have less usable income than we do now.
>
>We don't have a new car, fancy clothes or money for a lot of extras. But we
>
>eat steady, our utilities are on, we have a roof ove our heads and are
>adequately
>dressed.
>
>Angel

You make me feel rich - we're getting by OK on a single income. Same thing -
not a lot for extras, but we make ends meet. And one of us is always home.
I think too many people have been twisted into obsessive consumers. The
family suffers from trying to maintain the lifestyle. And their kids are
raised to be the same way.

It really depends on what you think is important.

--
Any comments or statements made are not necessarily those of
Fidelity Investments, its subsidiaries, or affiliates.
--
Bill Duncan bill@nospam

Susan Umpleby

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

Rob Hafernik <shok...@well.com> wrote in article
<shokwave-100...@as5-dialup-07.wc-aus.io.com>...

> In article <3505462A...@hotmail.com>, vala...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Would that my husband was making 42K a year and working 6 hrs a
day, 5 days <snip>

> >. He makes $24K/year.
> <snip>
>
> Well, let's see. You just described about a 48 hour work week
(five
> nine-hour days, plus three more hours on the weekend). That's
hardly an
> unusually long work week for the average professional. <SNIP>

>
> You left off something, though. School is out for two or three
months.
> <SNIP>

> I'm not arguing that teachers are overpaid. IMHO, lot's of them
don't
> make nearly what they should for the work they do. Others are
overpaid in
> the sense that they shouldn't be paid at all for the lousy job they
do.
> Either you love it enough to put up with the lousy pay and
conditions or
> you have some other motive to stick with it (such as stability) or
you
> quit.
-----------------------------------
A couple of points come to mind: 1) the average teacher's salary is
far too low --in many parts of the country in the mid $20Ks 2) why
should they have to "put up with lousy pay & conditions...or quit"?

When you think about it, teachers are among the most important people
in our society. They are the ones that are supposed to be preparing
our children for the future, who a responsible for their care for a
large part of their day. IMO the low pay scale is one of the
reasons that there are so many poor teachers around: the better ones
often leave for greener pastures.

And as for working only 9 months of the year: in my area most grade
schools have moved to the year-round system. I'm wondering how
widespread this is? There has been a bit of talk about doing same
for upper grades as well, though I don't think that will come about.


I am not a fan of the public school system in the U.S.--I think we've
let it go to hell.
But it is not all the teachers' fault. They are ill-paid and forced
to work, in many places, in abyssmal conditions: they are not
allowed to enforce discipline in the classroom, students have
increasingly in recent years shown physical abuse of teachers (&
other students), not enough supplies, etc. Having said that, I think
all teachers should have to meet set standards to perform their jobs
and be reviewed periodically for knowledge & performance.


Philip Nicholls

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

On 8 Mar 1998 16:02:13 GMT, zarl...@conan.ids.net (Michael Zarlenga)
wrote:

>Phil Nicholls (pn...@capital.net) wrote:
>: >My state tries that almost every year, coincidentally, that's right
>: >before the local teachers declare a strike (illegal under state law)
>: >and the state backs down.
>
>
>: And which state would that be, Mike? Where in this country are
>: negotiations with teachers conducted on
>: the state level?
>
>Not my state.
>
>Negotiations with teachers are on a city or town level.
>
>However, teacher requirements can be established by the state.

By teacher requirements I take it you mean requirements for
certification and perhaps recertification.

>When the state legislature starts writing bills to enact recer-
>tification or other methods to weed out the inompetent teachers
>in the public school system, a bunch of cities and towns threaten
>to strike.

If, as you say, they are forbidden to strike, as they are in New York,
where I teach, why doesn't the legislature just call their bluff.
After all, when was the last teacher strike called in Rhode Island?

>: When was the last time teachers were able to call a
>: statewide teacher's strike and what state
>: with a no-strike law in place would "back down?"

>Never. Just one or two big cities with the threat of a strike
>in September, just before school starts, is enough to get the state
>legislature to run away in fear, tail between its legs.

Sounds to me like the problems is with your legislature and not your
teachers, Mike.

>: I live and teach in New York, a state with rather strong unions and also a
>: state where teachers are not allowed to strike. Negotiations are carried

>Yeah, "not allowed to strike." Same in my state. Still, it's an
>almost annual occurrence. Go figure.

It's not an annual occurance in New York. If teachers (or any public
employee) strike the unions are fined and the union leaders are thrown
in jail.

>: >Last year we tried to get periodic teacher recertification. The
>: >teachers threatened a strike. As you may have guessed, we still
>: >don't have ANY teacher recertification.
>
>: Again, where did this occur. What state? What do you mean "we?"
>
>Rhode Island.

If memory serves, Rhode Island has some of the toughest certification
requirements in the country.

As I said, I live in upstate New York and I have not heard of any
radical union activity in Rhode Island.

Now I do know that in New York there is no current recertification
requirement and, yes, the unions lobby against such efforts.
Personally, I don't have a problem with the idea of recertification
except for the fact that the requirements are usually rather stupid
and it cost me $100 for each area of certification.

The fact is that current state law regarding tenure already has plenty
of provisions for removing incompetent teachers. We hired a teacher
this year and she was gone within a month. I myself replaced someone
who was not up to the job.

Teachers can be dismissed but if they have tenure they are entitled to
due process. The school board must have documented evidence of
incompetence. Is that really asking too much?

It is the job of a union to advocate for its members. Why do you
blame the union for doing its job when the legislature (by your own
admission) and school administrations do not seem to be doing their
jobs?

Those who can, teach. Those who can't teach
become libertarians.

pn...@capital.net
Visit Mr. Nicholl's Web Page of Science at
www.capital.net/~pnich

Philip Nicholls

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

On 9 Mar 1998 11:58:54 GMT, eskw...@SPAMBLOCK.shore.net wrote:

>In ne.general Michael Zarlenga <zarl...@conan.ids.net> wrote:
>
>| Regardless of my income, $42,160 puts teachers WELL ABOVE average
>| in my state. That's enough, IMO to get them into the top 5% of
>| all workers, or very close.
>
>
>This would amaze me if it were true. I bet that the average income in RI
>is somewhere atound 37,000. I bet that the top 5% is somewhere around
>85,000.

It depends on how you determine the average. The average income for a
teacher in mid-career ( 15-18 years of teaching experience) in RI is
39K and change, according to the AFT website.

Loren Petrich

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

In article <3505490C...@hotmail.com>,
Angel Sparrow <vala...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Not necessarily, Loren. Our combined income is about $27K, we have 3
kids >and >one of us is always home. I work part time, evenings and
weekends. We >raised >2 on 18K, until our student loans kicked in. It's
a matterof economizing >and frugility. >We would make more on paper if I
worked full time, but day care would take >such >a big bite we'd have less
usable income than we do now. > >We don't have a new car, fancy clothes or
money for a lot of extras. But we > >eat steady, our utilities are on, we
have a roof ove our heads and are >adequately >dressed.

That reminds me of my father, who despite having a net worth of
well over $100,000 (I'm not sure exactly), likes to live in
dormitory-type buildings where he has to share a bathroom.

Me? I have various ways of economizing. For example, I do not own
a car, which sometimes causes me some hassle.

--
Loren Petrich Happiness is a fast Macintosh
pet...@netcom.com And a fast train
My home page: http://www.petrich.com/home.html

Gatto

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

Loren Petrich wrote in message ...

>
> Me? I have various ways of economizing. For example, I do not own
>a car, which sometimes causes me some hassle.
>


Loren,

What city do you live in? Where I live if you don't have a car you hardly
can get anywhere.

Diana Obstfeld

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

Can we get back to the TIMSS study? Or has everything already been
said? It appears that this "subject" has gone off on it's own thread
along the way.

hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

unread,
Mar 10, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/10/98
to

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, John Parker wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:32:26 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:
>
>
> >So everybody who works is an expert in forecasting?
>

> No, Buddy, everybody whose job involves forecasting and consistently
> does it well is an expert in forecasting.

I guess that would leave you out. About all you can do well is show how
ignorant you are.

>
> >> I do real well at mine, well enough to
> >> retire younger than you.
> >
> >You're sure about that?
>

> Not entirely, but I'm fifty two and the only reason I'm still workin
> is because my employer has asked me to stay on for a while, and my job
> is more fun than work. Can you do better than that without suckin off
> the big momma government's titty?

You're sucking off big mama government-regulated monopoly's titty and you
talk? The pot calls the kettle black.

But you're working fulltime & I'm not. Guess I could afford to quit the
guv'mint, wouldn't you think?

> >> You ought to put on long pants, wipe your
> >> little pansy ass and try it sometime. Forty some years in school and
> >> yet you just aint quite ready yet, right?
> >
> >I did my time regulating utilities, Parker. If FERC ever needs a laborer,
> >I'll put in a good word for you though.
>

> Ahhhh, correct me if I'm wrong, but FERC's gonna be cuttin' forces
> soon as the federal utility regulation business sort of winds down.

OK, I'll correct you. You are wrong.

> I
> think if you can get yourself back in to that janitor job, you oughta
> do it now.

I heard you beat me to it & you have more experience at it. I'm sure
you'll love the building though.

--
Buddy K


John Parker

unread,
Mar 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/11/98
to

On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:54:53 -0600, Angel Sparrow
<vala...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Angel here:
>
>bj wrote:
> Would that my husband was making 42K a year and working 6 hrs a day, 5 days a
>week

<much trials and tribulations of the teacher's life snipped>

I'm sure your hubby is one of the good ones, and lord knows there's
plenty of good ones out there....but recently Bruce Lambert of the New
York Times wrote about the school officials in Bohemia, NY receiving
846 applications for 35 teaching vacancies, and only 286 of the
applicants could pass the qualifying test containing questions on a
test given to college bound high school juniors.

Susan Umpleby

unread,
Mar 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/11/98
to

?????Just how does your *penny-pinching* father compare with a family
with 3 kids surviving on $27K per year?

Loren Petrich <pet...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<petrichE...@netcom.com>...


> In article <3505490C...@hotmail.com>,
> Angel Sparrow <vala...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Not necessarily, Loren. Our combined income is about $27K, we
have 3
> kids >and >one of us is always home. I work part time, evenings
and
> weekends. We >raised >2 on 18K, until our student loans kicked in.
It's
> a matterof economizing >and frugility. >We would make more on paper
if I
> worked full time, but day care would take >such >a big bite we'd
have less
> usable income than we do now. > >We don't have a new car, fancy
clothes or
> money for a lot of extras. But we > >eat steady, our utilities are
on, we
> have a roof ove our heads and are >adequately >dressed.
>
> That reminds me of my father, who despite having a net worth of
> well over $100,000 (I'm not sure exactly), likes to live in
> dormitory-type buildings where he has to share a bathroom.
>

> Me? I have various ways of economizing. For example, I do not own
> a car, which sometimes causes me some hassle.
>

John Parker

unread,
Mar 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/11/98
to

On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 09:32:26 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:


>So everybody who works is an expert in forecasting?

No, Buddy, everybody whose job involves forecasting and consistently
does it well is an expert in forecasting.

>> I do real well at mine, well enough to


>> retire younger than you.
>
>You're sure about that?

Not entirely, but I'm fifty two and the only reason I'm still workin
is because my employer has asked me to stay on for a while, and my job
is more fun than work. Can you do better than that without suckin off
the big momma government's titty?

>> You ought to put on long pants, wipe your


>> little pansy ass and try it sometime. Forty some years in school and
>> yet you just aint quite ready yet, right?
>
>I did my time regulating utilities, Parker. If FERC ever needs a laborer,
>I'll put in a good word for you though.

Ahhhh, correct me if I'm wrong, but FERC's gonna be cuttin' forces

soon as the federal utility regulation business sort of winds down. I


think if you can get yourself back in to that janitor job, you oughta
do it now.

To respond in a logical manner to your illogical posting is

John Parker

unread,
Mar 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/11/98
to

On 10 Mar 1998 09:32:44 -0500, Andrew Hall <ah...@remus.cs.uml.edu>
wrote:

> John> one. The difference between you and me, however, is that I use mine
>
>I supposes everyone has an education. Yours, based on
>the amount of ignorance in your technical posts, was a
>very poor education.
>

But then I never really thought it very important to convince you,
Hall.

Loren Petrich

unread,
Mar 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/11/98
to

In article <01bd4c92$405e4ce0$b66cfed0@default>,

Susan Umpleby <sump...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>?????Just how does your *penny-pinching* father compare with a family
>with 3 kids surviving on $27K per year?

Just something it brought to mind.

>> That reminds me of my father, who despite having a net worth of
>> well over $100,000 (I'm not sure exactly), likes to live in
>> dormitory-type buildings where he has to share a bathroom.

My father has, or at least used to have, some investment in some
German apartment complexes; I have not been in contact with him, so I do
not know the full extent of his financial empire. In fact, all my
knowledge of it has been secondhand.

However, if everybody lived like my father, there would be little
demand for apartment complexes; so his career has depended on others
being bigger spenders.

>> Me? I have various ways of economizing. For example, I do not own
>> a car, which sometimes causes me some hassle.

I've thought about that, and I will concede that my economic
self-interest does hurt the automotive industry and related industries by
depriving them of a customer, but I feel that I have no choice but to put
my selfish interests first -- I cannot afford to do otherwise.

John Parker

unread,
Mar 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/11/98
to

On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:53:51 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:

>But you're working fulltime & I'm not. Guess I could afford to quit the
>guv'mint, wouldn't you think?

Hehehehe, yeah Buddy, I work full time cause I can.

Zepp Weasel

unread,
Mar 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/11/98
to

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:52:51 GMT, jhpa...@Emailbag.com (John Parker)
wrote:

>On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:54:53 -0600, Angel Sparrow
><vala...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Angel here:
>>
>>bj wrote:
>> Would that my husband was making 42K a year and working 6 hrs a day, 5 days a
>>week
>
><much trials and tribulations of the teacher's life snipped>
>
>I'm sure your hubby is one of the good ones, and lord knows there's
>plenty of good ones out there....but recently Bruce Lambert of the New
>York Times wrote about the school officials in Bohemia, NY receiving
>846 applications for 35 teaching vacancies, and only 286 of the
>applicants could pass the qualifying test containing questions on a
>test given to college bound high school juniors.

You talking about the SATs? That's pretty broad spectrum. I expect a
physics teacher to be proficient in physics, a history teacher to be
proficient in history, and a gym teacher to grunt and sweat at normal
humans. I don't feel any great need for a math teacher with perfect
grammar, or a history teacher who is familiar with UNIX.

I also wonder how most adults would do on those tests. We forget a
lot. We ALL forget a lot. Do you remember what became of King
Charles I, or how to factor out an equation? I do, but then, I picked
two questions where I DID know the answer. We've both probably
forgotten more than a high school junior knows.

It would be interesting to give that test to the general population,
wouldn't it?


>
>To respond in a logical manner to your illogical posting is
>not logical, but it is great fun to add to your obvious
>confusion. Remove the E from my Email address.
>
>-John Parker

----------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------
"Ask yourself how you would feel if the President has his
penis down the throat of your daughter!"
-- Rush Limbaugh, bellowing at his audience of millions,
and removing forever any doubts that he's a lying dirtbag.

"The dress story?" laughed literary agent Lucianne
Goldberg in aninterview with the Daily News. "I think
I leaked that. . . . . I had to do something to get
their (the media's) attention. I've done it.
And I'm not unproud of it."

First published word of the dress appeared on the Drudge
report, an internet gossip column produced by
independent reporter, Mike Drudge.

Drudge, who has no formal journalism training, admits
that his reports are based largely on rumor.
"My stories are about 80 percent accurate," he has said.
-----------------------------------------------------
Be good, servile little citizen-employees:
Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.

When in doubt, call a stoat!
-----------------------------------------------------

Rob Hafernik

unread,
Mar 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/11/98
to

In article <01bd4c51$b1ba9920$286ffed0@default>, "Susan Umpleby"
<sump...@earthlink.net> wrote:

<snip>


> A couple of points come to mind: 1) the average teacher's salary is
> far too low --in many parts of the country in the mid $20Ks 2) why
> should they have to "put up with lousy pay & conditions...or quit"?

<snip>

Because this is how free markets work: if people won't work for the wage
offered, then the wage goes up or the conditions change or SOMETHING.
Supply and demand. We HAVE to have teachers.

Also, you conveniently snipped out part of the quote above, the "if you
love it enough" part. I think most good teachers feel rewarded by more
than just their paychecks.

Dick Hamlen

unread,
Mar 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/11/98
to

John Parker wrote:
>
(snip)
> I expect a teacher to be able to pass any test that the students in
> their charge are expected to pass. I do expect a math teacher to have
> perfect grammer....and I expect the 11th grade english teacher to know
> 11th grade math.
Should the math teacher know how to spell and type accurately (in
addition to having perfect grammar)?
Dick


Milt

unread,
Mar 11, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/11/98
to


Rob Hafernik wrote:

> In article <01bd4c51$b1ba9920$286ffed0@default>, "Susan Umpleby"
> <sump...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > A couple of points come to mind: 1) the average teacher's salary is
> > far too low --in many parts of the country in the mid $20Ks 2) why
> > should they have to "put up with lousy pay & conditions...or quit"?
> <snip>
>
> Because this is how free markets work: if people won't work for the wage
> offered, then the wage goes up or the conditions change or SOMETHING.
> Supply and demand. We HAVE to have teachers.

But that assertion is ludicrous. The wage can't go up unless that taxes that
go to pay them goes up. It's not anything like a free market. Schools can't
sell stock to raise money, and they can't increase revenues without a vote.
What is more likely to happen is, if there is a shortage of teachers willing
to work for a certain wage, qualifications will become looser.

> Also, you conveniently snipped out part of the quote above, the "if you
> love it enough" part. I think most good teachers feel rewarded by more
> than just their paychecks.

I would agree. But you would find it hard to argue that it's always easier
to do something noble when you don't have to struggle to keep a roof over
your head and food in your kids' stomachs.

Milt


John Parker

unread,
Mar 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/12/98
to

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:24:20 GMT, zepphol...@snowcrest.net (Zepp
Weasel) wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:52:51 GMT, jhpa...@Emailbag.com (John Parker)
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:54:53 -0600, Angel Sparrow
>><vala...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Angel here:
>>>
>>>bj wrote:
>>> Would that my husband was making 42K a year and working 6 hrs a day, 5 days a
>>>week
>>
>><much trials and tribulations of the teacher's life snipped>
>>
>>I'm sure your hubby is one of the good ones, and lord knows there's
>>plenty of good ones out there....but recently Bruce Lambert of the New
>>York Times wrote about the school officials in Bohemia, NY receiving
>>846 applications for 35 teaching vacancies, and only 286 of the
>>applicants could pass the qualifying test containing questions on a
>>test given to college bound high school juniors.
>
>You talking about the SATs? That's pretty broad spectrum. I expect a
>physics teacher to be proficient in physics, a history teacher to be
>proficient in history, and a gym teacher to grunt and sweat at normal
>humans. I don't feel any great need for a math teacher with perfect
>grammar, or a history teacher who is familiar with UNIX.

I expect a teacher to be able to pass any test that the students in


their charge are expected to pass. I do expect a math teacher to have
perfect grammer....and I expect the 11th grade english teacher to know
11th grade math.

>I also wonder how most adults would do on those tests. We forget a


>lot. We ALL forget a lot. Do you remember what became of King
>Charles I, or how to factor out an equation? I do, but then, I picked
>two questions where I DID know the answer. We've both probably
>forgotten more than a high school junior knows.

This isn't a question of how well "most adults" would do. It's a
question of how well learned are the people who will be teaching our
kids. The standards are to damned low.

>It would be interesting to give that test to the general population,
>wouldn't it?

Why?

Loren Petrich

unread,
Mar 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/12/98
to

In article <shokwave-110...@as4-dialup-27.wc-aus.io.com>,

Rob Hafernik <shok...@well.com> wrote:
>In article <01bd4c51$b1ba9920$286ffed0@default>, "Susan Umpleby"
><sump...@earthlink.net> wrote:

><snip>
>> A couple of points come to mind: 1) the average teacher's salary is
>> far too low --in many parts of the country in the mid $20Ks 2) why
>> should they have to "put up with lousy pay & conditions...or quit"?
><snip>

>Because this is how free markets work: if people won't work for the wage
>offered, then the wage goes up or the conditions change or SOMETHING.
>Supply and demand. We HAVE to have teachers.

So does this mean that you're willing to live with teachers not
paid enough to attact good ones???

Susan Umpleby

unread,
Mar 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/12/98
to

Rob Hafernik <shok...@well.com> wrote in article
<shokwave-110...@as4-dialup-27.wc-aus.io.com>...

> In article <01bd4c51$b1ba9920$286ffed0@default>, "Susan Umpleby"
> <sump...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > A couple of points come to mind: 1) the average teacher's salary
is
> > far too low --in many parts of the country in the mid $20Ks 2)
why
> > should they have to "put up with lousy pay & conditions...or
quit"?
> <snip>
>
> Because this is how free markets work: if people won't work for the
wage
> offered, then the wage goes up or the conditions change or
SOMETHING.
> Supply and demand. We HAVE to have teachers.
-------------------------------------------------
I think you missed my drift with the second point: NOBODY should be
told that if they don't like the pay & conditions they should quit.
Would you tell an engineer that? A scientist? A doctor? If someone is
doing a job, REGARDLESS OF HOW MUCH THEY LOVE IT, that is ill-paid
and in which they are subject to physical abuse and not given the
supplies & equipment they need then they have the *right* to ask for
improvement. Employers who have the *or quit* attitude will soon
mind themselves attracting inferior workers to replace those who've
gone on to greener pastures. We as a society should demand that the
*best* are teaching our children, and pay them accordingly.

hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

unread,
Mar 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/12/98
to

On 11 Mar 1998, Michael Zarlenga wrote:

> Zepp Weasel (zepphol...@snowcrest.net) wrote:
> : >My state tries that almost every year, coincidentally, that's right
> : >before the local teachers declare a strike (illegal under state law)
> : >and the state backs down.
> : >

> : If it's illegal, then why should the state back down?
>
> Fear that an entire school year will be lost if they dare
> enforce the state laws forbidding strikes.

So much for that all-powerful guv'mint that you pseudo-libertarians fear.

>
>
> : >Last year we tried to get periodic teacher recertification. The
> : >teachers threatened a strike. As you may have guessed, we still
> : >don't have ANY teacher recertification.
> : >

> : An illegal strike. Uh huh.
>
> What, exactly, don't you believe?

I don't believe you are anything but a hypocrite when you post that
libertarian stuff but turn to the power of the state when you want it to
prohibit people from banding together in order to sell the fruits of their
labor.

--
Buddy K


Dick Hamlen

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Mar 12, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/12/98
to

John Parker wrote:
>
> On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:40:33 -0500, Dick Hamlen
> <ham...@roanoke.infi.net> wrote:
>
> >John Parker wrote:
> >>
> >(snip)

> >> I expect a teacher to be able to pass any test that the students in
> >> their charge are expected to pass. I do expect a math teacher to have
> >> perfect grammer....and I expect the 11th grade english teacher to know
> >> 11th grade math.
> >Should the math teacher know how to spell and type accurately (in
> >addition to having perfect grammar)?
>
> Spell???? absolutely.....but I doubt that typing was on the test.
>
Pardon the intrusion; I was merely struck by the irony of your
misspelling the word "grammar" in a thread about excellence. :)
Dick


John Parker

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Mar 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/13/98
to

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:40:33 -0500, Dick Hamlen
<ham...@roanoke.infi.net> wrote:

>John Parker wrote:
>>
>(snip)
>> I expect a teacher to be able to pass any test that the students in
>> their charge are expected to pass. I do expect a math teacher to have
>> perfect grammer....and I expect the 11th grade english teacher to know
>> 11th grade math.
>Should the math teacher know how to spell and type accurately (in
>addition to having perfect grammar)?

Spell???? absolutely.....but I doubt that typing was on the test.

John Parker

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Mar 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/13/98
to

On 12 Mar 1998 08:36:15 -0500, Andrew Hall <ah...@remus.cs.uml.edu>
wrote:

>>>>>> Dick Hamlen writes:
>
> Dick> John Parker wrote:
> >>
> Dick> (snip)


> >> I expect a teacher to be able to pass any test that the students
> >> in their charge are expected to pass. I do expect a math
> >> teacher to have perfect grammer....and I expect the 11th grade
> >> english teacher to know 11th grade math.
>

> Dick> Should the math teacher know how to spell and type accurately
> Dick> (in addition to having perfect grammar)? Dick
>
>
>Mr. Parker, by the standards he has outlined,is clearly unqualified
>to teach 8th grade.

Grow up Hall, I think you've had your brain fried by that 200 watt
stereo in your pussymobile.

gdy5...@prairie.lakes.com

unread,
Mar 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/13/98
to

jhpa...@Emailbag.com (John Parker) wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:40:33 -0500, Dick Hamlen
><ham...@roanoke.infi.net> wrote:

>>John Parker wrote:
>>>
>>(snip)
>>> I expect a teacher to be able to pass any test that the students in
>>> their charge are expected to pass. I do expect a math teacher to have
>>> perfect grammer....and I expect the 11th grade english teacher to know
>>> 11th grade math.

>>Should the math teacher know how to spell and type accurately (in


>>addition to having perfect grammar)?

>Spell???? absolutely.....but I doubt that typing was on the test.

um did the teacher write the test in long hand?

>To respond in a logical manner to your illogical posting is
>not logical, but it is great fun to add to your obvious
>confusion. Remove the E from my Email address.

>-John Parker

__________________________________________________
Let The White Rose enlighten you.

http://prairie.lakes.com/~gdy52150/whiterose.htm
gdy weasel
________________________________________________
Parkie expounding on his deep knowledge of English:
>I don't expect anyone that writes "learned" as "learnt" to
>understand what a quality education is all about,

hint parkie learnt is the pass tense of learn
_____________________________________________
Now heres johnieee expounding on logic:

>Gosh, Jim, I didn't claim to be logical...

thats probably the only truthful statement parkie has ever posted.
___________________________________________
>Michael Ejercito teaches civics:
>>The GOP didn't control all three branches of government
>>in 1953. Learn your history, Mikey.
>Yes,they did. The House,the Senate,and the White House.

now what happen to the judicial?
___________________________________________________
>Mary E. Kandler on southern values:
>The Democratic party has strayed too far from Soutern
>values & the Republican Party along with Jefferson Davis
>&Abraham Lincoln express those best.

that high pitch hum you hear is old Abe spinning in his grave.


Zepp Weasel

unread,
Mar 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/13/98
to

On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:57:08 -0500, <hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu> wrote:

>
>On 11 Mar 1998, Michael Zarlenga wrote:
>
>> Zepp Weasel (zepphol...@snowcrest.net) wrote:
>> : >My state tries that almost every year, coincidentally, that's right
>> : >before the local teachers declare a strike (illegal under state law)
>> : >and the state backs down.
>> : >
>> : If it's illegal, then why should the state back down?
>>
>> Fear that an entire school year will be lost if they dare
>> enforce the state laws forbidding strikes.
>
>So much for that all-powerful guv'mint that you pseudo-libertarians fear.

Isn't it amazing? Civilians--American citizens--defying a bureaucracy
and defending their rights, and our pseudo-libertarian here thinks
that's just plain awful.

>
>>
>>
>> : >Last year we tried to get periodic teacher recertification. The
>> : >teachers threatened a strike. As you may have guessed, we still
>> : >don't have ANY teacher recertification.
>> : >
>> : An illegal strike. Uh huh.
>>
>> What, exactly, don't you believe?
>
>I don't believe you are anything but a hypocrite when you post that
>libertarian stuff but turn to the power of the state when you want it to
>prohibit people from banding together in order to sell the fruits of their
>labor.

I further find it hard to believe that a threat of an illegal strike
is going to have much credibility.

I do think, however, that Mike thinks everyone should have rights
except people.
>
>--
>Buddy K

Rob Hafernik

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Mar 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/13/98
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In article <35075841...@no.spam>, milt...@earthlink.net wrote:

<snip>


> But that assertion is ludicrous. The wage can't go up unless that taxes that
> go to pay them goes up. It's not anything like a free market. Schools can't
> sell stock to raise money, and they can't increase revenues without a vote.
> What is more likely to happen is, if there is a shortage of teachers willing
> to work for a certain wage, qualifications will become looser.

<snip>

Well, I think there are other things that could happen, the school
districts just won't do them. The districts are incredibly bloated (here,
at least) and spending more money per student than ever. IIRC, AISD
(Austin) spends about $7500 per student per year. That's $210,000 for a
class of 28 students. You would THINK that there might be a decent salary
in there for a teacher (say 15-25% of the total), but apparently not.

You're right when you say it's not a free market. That's one of the worst
things about it. Complex systems that are competitive are always (at
least I can't think of an exception) more efficient than non-competitive
complex systems.

As for qualifications becoming looser, I don't know. My guess is that the
teachers here wouldn't agree that they have, but there are lots of people
who claim that they have. I don't have any data.

If you want to see a school board in action, try this URL:

http://www.austin.isd.tenet.edu/budget.html

This is the AISD budget for 97/98. See how long it takes you to find any
actual money numbers in this mess. They've worked pretty hard to hide the
actual money numbers from the public.

hkil...@osf1.gmu.edu

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Mar 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/13/98
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On 13 Mar 1998, Andrew Hall wrote:

> >>>>> John Parker writes:
>
> John> On 12 Mar 1998 08:36:15 -0500, Andrew Hall <ah...@remus.cs.uml.edu>


> wrote>
>
> >>>>>>> Dick Hamlen writes:
> >>
> Dick> John Parker wrote:
> >> >>

> Dick> (snip)


> >> >> I expect a teacher