Forced Vaginal Exam of 12 year old: Update
John Dulaney
From 10070...@CompuServe.COM Tue Apr 30 12:04:42 1996
Date: 30 Apr 96 12:25:26 EDT
From: Michael Williams <10070...@CompuServe.COM>
To: BlindCopyReceiver: ;
Subject: IN-SCHOOL GENITAL EXAM ON SIXTH GRADE GIRLS
************************************************************
IN-SCHOOL GENITAL EXAM ON SIXTH GRADE GIRLS
Sixth graders were instructed to strip to their underwear
and wait; that a genital exam was part of the state-mandated
physical. Students asked if they had to submit to genital
examination. When told it was required, 16 girls began cry-
ing. Although the nurse called them, "babies," 11-year-old-
Susie persisted. "I want to call my mother. My mother
wouldn't want you to do this to me." School staff denied
her request to phone home.
On March 19, 1996, a pediatrician in Pennsylvania's East
Stroudsbury Area School District performed an in-school
physical on 50 sixth-graders -- which included a genital
exam.
Susie's mother, Katie Tucker said, "My daughter told me
that the doctor digitally penetrated her. It's a
nightmare." "Although other parents apparently received
notices about the school physical, I didn't receive a
consent form or notification."
One mother (name withheld) who did receive a notice said,
"I wrote on the form that my daughter was NOT to have a
school physical. She refused the exam; but they did it
anyway." Now that sixth grader is experiencing nightmares
and wakes up repeating. "But I said, 'no'. I said, 'no'."
Some children felt pain, one girl apparently experienced
spotting after the physical.
The district's assistant superintendent explained, although
not required, a visual genitalia examination is state-
approved. (Scribners note: In future series of this event,
will provide the authorization that is utilized by schools
given un-knowingly by most parents)! Officials in another
school district volunteered that they also include a genital
exam for sixth graders.
According to the Pocono Record the pediatrician stated, "Even
a parent doesn't have the right to say what's appropriate
for a physician to do when they're [sic] doing an exam."
(Scribners note: The following was received and will
include his comment as follows, Quote; "Let me tell you
something, Mr. Beeler...I was (and part time, still am)
involved in medicine for 14 years; my wife is a nurse, and
soon to be a nurse practitioner and we will both tell you
and ANYONE who has ANY "confusion" about this statement
here." ***PARENTS HAVE**EVERY RIGHT**TO TELL A PHYSICIAN
WHAT HE/SHE CAN AND CANNOT DO TO THEIR KIDS!!!!!!!!!***
Especially in the school, for crying out loud... Tell me
...please...that people are NOT going to be stupid enough
to believe this. For C___t Sakes, their KIDS were
"officially" fondled and at least in one case, partially
raped." end Quote.)
Pennsylvania's branch of the NEA rallied around the pedia-
trician, school nurses, and state's right to permit an in-
school genital exam. To demonstrate their approval, tea-
chers began wearing blue ribbons, Three hundred children --
to plead their case --- started wearing homemade pink
ribbons.
Officials claimed parents' "emotional' reaction, not the
physical, upset the little girls. But Dr. E. W. Throck-
morton, president elect of the American Mental Health
Counselors Association, disagreed. He stated, "The fun-
damental rights of parents to direct health care was
apparently violated by this intrusive exam."
President Clinton's education law, Goals 2000, directs
public schools to offer free, health-related, "one-stop
shopping" services to all students, like East Strouds-
burg's sixth graders. Susie's mother asks, "Maybe it's
the school's plan to align itself with Goals 2000?" In
fact, her school district receives $25,000 from Goals
2000.
Mrs. Tucker adds, " As parents, we teach our children to
say, 'no' to being exposed and touched at school, her voice
went unheeded."
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John Dulaney
Schools Are Going Too Far: from Brannon Howse
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE-URGENT ACTION REQUIRED
Last week I received a press release from Pam Hoffecker about 59
sixth grade girls who were given physical exams without parental consent.
Last Thursday in East Stroudsburg, PA. Police investigated parents'
complaints about physicals given to some J.T. Lambert Intermediate School
sixth-grade girls.
Some parents told school officials that their daughters were given an
internal gynecological exam Tuesday.
School officials, as well as the East Stroudsburg pediatrician who
performed the exams, say there was only an external examination of
genitalia- with some touching which is within parameters set by the State
Department of Health.
Some parents who acknowledge that their daughters were given an externl
genital exam said even that went too far in school.
I have learned that this medical procedure was approved by the school
board. Evidently, one member of the board made a motion which would have
allowed the children to refuse to be examined below the waste. This motion
was defeated by a vote of 8 to 1. Today for my national radio show, which
will air on Wednesday, I pre- taped a 16 minute interview with Pam
Hoffecker and Katie Tucker of Bushkill, PA.
Mrs. Tucker is the mother of one of the daughters who received this
genital exam. Mrs. Tucker told me that her daugher was crying and begging
to use the phone to call her mother. The sixth grade girl, told the femal
doctor and school nurse that her mother would not want her to undergo such
an examination at school without her permission. Mrs. Tucker's daughter
and other girls were refused permission to call home. The school nurse
stood in front of the door blocking the exit. The school nurse and doctor
told the girls they were being babies. Mrs. Tucker said her daughter was
touched internally and that, "most of the girls were crying. She did not
go to school today because she was afraid."
Atleast one girl claims to have been '"penetrated". Another girl went
home and told her mother she had something awful to tell her but first she
had to take a hot shower.
Let's remember my friends, most schools will not even give your child an
aspirin with out having prior written consent on file.
Aside from false imprisonment, based on my interview with Mrs. Tucker, a
mother of one of the 59 girls, I believe what took place consist of
nothingless than sexual molestation. It does not matter whether the
individual touching these girls unwantingly was a local pediatrician or
some pervert off the street, such unconsentual touching of the genital
area by anyone is sexual molestation in my opinion.
Dr. Vahanvaty, the doctor who performed the "examinations" said, "what it
involved is an external examination of the labia to see if there were any
warts or vaginal lesions. You can't see these if you don't retract the
(labia)."
Dr. Vahanvaty and the school officials are acussing the parents of making
too big a deal out of this. Dr. Vahanvaty said, "Before they start
spreading rumors they should find out the facts. I think ignorance has a
large role to play in this. It's totally ludicrous and out of
proportion."
Pam Hoffecker has told me that this exam took place without prior parental
knowledge or consent. The president of my radio network heard the 16
minute taped interview that I will air on my show Wednesday, and becameso
angry he has asked another one of his talk show host, Matt Staver of
Florida who is president of the Libery Council, to take up the case for
the 59 girls and their families. We should hear from Matt tomorrow. I
will also be on The Bott Radio Network Wednesday with the 16 minute
interview as well as on the 115 stations of The American Family Radio
Network.
We will be asking all concerned citizens to call the Attorney General's
office in PA. requesting a full investigation. The Attorney General's
number is (717) 787-3391
You can also call the school direct to inform them of your opinion on this
matter at (717) 424-8430
Pam Hoffecker told me that the State Police conducted an investigation but
somehow forgot to interview any of the 59 girls who underwent this
"examination". You can call the State Police Dept. at (717) 424-3037
According to Pam Hoffecker, teachers at the school are wearing blue
ribbons in class to show their support of the examinations. The kids are
now wearing pink ribbons to show their support for the 59 little girls.
Unless conservative citizens voice their outrage, this will take place in
your child's school as well, if it has not already. This is the second
such story I have confirmed in less than four months.
Goals 2000 and HR 6 stirives to create one stop social service centers
where such violations of parental authority, freedom, and decancy will be
the norm.
If you want to reach me direct, my office number is (612) 739-4112 Pam
Hoffecker's number is (412) 458-5279
My new book, Reclaiming A Nation At Risk, is 300 pages on HR 6, School to
Work, the Oregon Story, the certificates of mastery , the Careers Act,
and much more. You can order a copy for $12 by calling 1800-954-1122 Ext
500
(Forward by Micheal Reagan)
Sincerely,
Brannon Howse
Ted Hirsch
Pennsylvania has the crappiest state education
department. If what you said is true, it should
be a mark of shame for the NEA to support such
genital exams without parental consent.
It is particularly startling because Federal
law prevents a school psychologist from OBSERVING
a student for an evaluation of possible special
education needs. It's amazing that anyone could
do such an examination of the students, without
parental consent, and not be put in jail. If
I was the father of one of those girls, I'd be
livid.
| Long Island, New York http://www.nyiq.net/~ted
_|_ _ __| "The secret to creativity is knowing how to
| |/ / | hide your sources." --Albert Einstein
|_/|__/\_/|_/ Disclaimer: Everyone shares my views. So there.
Diana Sandberg
>Unless conservative citizens voice their outrage,...
Excuse me. What is this remark meant to imply? Are those of us who do not
consider ourselves "conservative" supposed to be in favour of 12-year-olds
being forced to have pelvic exams?
I have been quite disturbed by this discussion. The original story is
horrifying.
I am concerned that I have heard nothing about it from any other source than
this newsgroup, and also concerned that the issue seems to be claimed by
"conservatives" as >their< issue and somehow proves something to their
advantage, though I can't make out what they think this is.
Gloria Faley
I am curious, hasn't any teacher that belong to the NEA called to
find out the real facts about this. I have read Goals 2000
and find nowhere a rule to perform "arbitary" internal examination.
If there is sexual abuse is suspected, examination occur now without
Goals 2000. I have rean John's stuff before and found it to full
of holes. Surely, NEA and AFT teachers read this newsgroup.
Thanks.
Gloria Faley
Okay... the information that I have recieved is that all the parents
were given written slips that the physicals were available.
NO child would be given an physical unless the parent signed the
slip and it was sent home. Also, the child were given the opportunity
to have a parent present.
However, the State police direct the investigation of this case to
the Montgomery County Attorney General's office. The investigation is
under-way.
I recieved this information from the Montgomery Attorney General's
office, who were very nice and seemed very interested in asking for
feedback.
In article <4m92pt$o...@nntp1.best.com>, jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) writes:
David L. Hanson
>I am concerned that I have heard nothing about it from any other source than
>this newsgroup, and also concerned that the issue seems to be claimed by
>"conservatives" as >their< issue and somehow proves something to their
>advantage, though I can't make out what they think this is.
This violation of children is discussed on Michael Reagan's (the talk show
host who is the President Reagan's son) talk show and web site. Conservatives
, who have been decrying what has been going on in the public schools for some
time, see this an example of what happens when the government "owns" the
children. The mind set of educationists in the public schools, and of
liberals like Miss Hillary (It takes a government to raise a child) has led to
bad laws that violate our liberty and to bad events like the violation of
these children. When the public schools are given the authority and the
money to set up clinics in the schools (as federal legislation has done) AND
the educationists believe that parents are not fit to raise their own
children, then outrages like this are a logical end. It will only get worse
until parents remove their children from government control.
David L. Hanson
"Ye MUST be born again"
Beth Kevles
Has anyone phoned the school district or police dept. in that state to
find out if this much-touted incident really happened, or really
happened in a way that even vaguely resembles the presentation on this
thread and on the associated web page?
This is the kind of incident that normally gets LOTS of news coverage.
I have a suspicion that the facts, as reported on this thread, are
simply wrong.
But I haven't phone up, either. It's long-distance.
--Beth Kevles
kev...@mit.edu
Constance Bailey
I can't believe this is true. As a parent of a young girl, if anyone
molested my child, I would KILL the low-life scum, no matter who he/she was.
I would not trust the judicial system to punish the molester. If this
really happened, wouldn't the parents of these girls have became outraged
enough to do the same?
LindaP
sas...@worm.unx.sas.com (Gloria Faley) wrote:
>Okay... the information that I have recieved is that all the parents
>were given written slips that the physicals were available.
And were you also told that there is nothing in the state law of
Penn. that requires vaginal exams of minor children?
>NO child would be given an physical unless the parent signed the
>slip and it was sent home. Also, the child were given the opportunity
>to have a parent present.
Ok.. let's suppose the parents DID receive a permission slip to be
signed. Did that permission slip inform the parents of the extent of
such an exam? Were the parents explicitly told that their minor
daughters would be given a genital examination?
>However, the State police direct the investigation of this case to
>the Montgomery County Attorney General's office. The investigation is
>under-way.
My reports are first-hand- and there is no 'ongoing
investigation'. The state, the police, the d.a.'s office, the
medical community, the teachers, etc. are all in support of this
doctor's behavior. I guess therefore, that alone would make it
right in the minds of some people.
>I recieved this information from the Montgomery Attorney General's
>office, who were very nice and seemed very interested in asking for
>feedback.
I have no doubt that they were extremely nice :) Do you always
accept easy answers? If so, I hear there is a bridge in Brooklyn for
sale :))
Take just a moment- and imagine it was YOUR daughter.
Your daughter comes home from school in tears- having had a very
private part of her body examined- even though she asked them not to
exam her there. Imagine HER being called a baby and refused a phone
call to her parents.
Go one step further, and think about the assertion of such a doctor-
who when faced with a pleading child- ignored her pleas and examined
her anyway!!!
As a mother, I teach my daughters to say NO. But I did not think to
warn them that because some 'Dr." thinks my child needs examining for
sexually transmitted diseases - (please remember these girls are 11
and 12 years old!!!) , he can refuse to honor their NO!
Can anyone here cite Penn. state law that gives the school the right
to administer such an exam ???
And before you sit down in your rocking chair and ignore this type of
abuse- make sure that it is not happening in your own backyard-
LindaP
LindaP
kev...@athena.mit.edu (Beth Kevles) wrote:
>Has anyone phoned the school district or police dept. in that state to
>find out if this much-touted incident really happened, or really
>happened in a way that even vaguely resembles the presentation on this
>thread and on the associated web page?
The 'incident' happened. That is not in question.
>This is the kind of incident that normally gets LOTS of news coverage.
>I have a suspicion that the facts, as reported on this thread, are
>simply wrong.
>But I haven't phone up, either. It's long-distance.
Hopefully this 'incident' will get a lot more coverage. Maybe it
will wake up a few more parents as to what goes on in their own
districts. The 'facts' as reported in the Usenet- at least the
ones I have seen so far, are accurate.
If you do think of calling, please be aware that the administrators
and the d.a.'s office are now tracking phone calls.
I agree that it is important to deal in absolute facts. But what a
waste of bandwith to give an opinion that one thinks 'the facts in
this thread are wrong'- without any knowledge.
By all means- seek to get to the bottom of this issue.
No pun intended :|
LindaP
John Dulaney
Gloria Faley (sas...@worm.unx.sas.com) wrote:
: I am curious, hasn't any teacher that belong to the NEA called to
: find out the real facts about this. I have read Goals 2000
: and find nowhere a rule to perform "arbitary" internal examination.
It's as big as a large city's YELLOW PAGES.
You've read it?
: If there is sexual abuse is suspected, examination occur now without
: Goals 2000. I have rean John's stuff before and found it to full
: of holes. Surely, NEA and AFT teachers read this newsgroup.
Name a hole, please.
You'd best read from my new web page.
Address below.
John Dulaney
Gloria Faley (sas...@worm.unx.sas.com) wrote:
: Okay... the information that I have recieved is that all the parents
: were given written slips that the physicals were available.
Name your source for this "info."
: NO child would be given an physical unless the parent signed the
: slip and it was sent home. Also, the child were given the opportunity
: to have a parent present.
: However, the State police direct the investigation of this case to
: the Montgomery County Attorney General's office. The investigation is
: under-way.
It was ended without a single interview of a child.
: I recieved this information from the Montgomery Attorney General's
: office, who were very nice and seemed very interested in asking for
: feedback.
Give their no.
John Dulaney
Constance Bailey (ccba...@ansel.intersource.com) wrote:
: I can't believe this is true. As a parent of a young girl, if anyone
: I would not trust the judicial system to punish the molester. If this
: really happened, wouldn't the parents of these girls have became outraged
: enough to do the same?
Give them time...
John
John Dulaney
Beth Kevles (kev...@athena.mit.edu) wrote:
: Has anyone phoned the school district or police dept. in that state to
: find out if this much-touted incident really happened, or really
: happened in a way that even vaguely resembles the presentation on this
: thread and on the associated web page?
: This is the kind of incident that normally gets LOTS of news coverage.
You've just said one of the most contrary to fact statements I've
ever read or heard in my life.
Anything that tends to denounce leftist programs does NOT get
coverage!
: I have a suspicion that the facts, as reported on this thread, are
: simply wrong.
: But I haven't phone up, either. It's long-distance.
From patr...@ix.netcom.com Wed May 1 06:41:33 1996
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 05:58:02 -0700
From: MEL PASTULA <patr...@ix.netcom.com>
To: John Dulaney <jdul...@nntp1.best.com>
Subject: Re: Forced Vaginal Exam of 12 year old: Update
Hi Mr Dulaney,
I like your posts and have been following them. You are entirely
correct, Goals 2000 mandates wrap around services for the schools,
eventually all medical and social services will be offered in the
schools, then they will become the only place families will be able to
receive them. We are merging the DEPTS OF LABOR, EDUCATION AND HEALTH
AND HUMAN SERVICES into one entity (School-to-Work HR 1617).
A couple of things:
1. Have you seen a copy of the State Resolution for Kansas or Utah, I
can't remember off hand (am getting the copy today), that has
essentially resolved that since the parent has basically failed in the
rearing of the child, the State has declared itself to be the final
authority in all decisions concerning the child? I saw a copy of it a
a meeting I attended last week.
2. I have lost the address I picked up in the misc.education newsgroup
for the REAGAN ON-LINE NEWSLETTER which has the forced pelvic
examinations posted on it. If you would be so kind as to forward that
address to me, or reply that you do not have it, I would be eternally
greatful. I am in the process of putting together my monthly
newsletter for my organization, Family First, and would like to include
this info in it. I would also like to have a copy of Reagan's report to
hand out.
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Julie Pastula
patr...@ix.netcom.com
Robert E. Garland
I'm concerned about accuracy here. The only link to the area seems to be
in the original post citing Stroudsburg and the Pocono Record as location
and sources.
The follow-up posts seem to have the county pegged as another location
about 90 miles south.
If you want the info on Pennsylvania school law, check with the
superintendent of your local district if you are not in the offending
district. Superintendents or their prime assistants are usually the
local experts. However, many districts do use the services of a law firm
in (I believe) Pittsburgh for things that need interpretation.
You might also ask the staff of your local state senator or
representative for assistance in locating the relevant portion of the
school law, if there is a relevant portion.
--
Robert Garland NX3S @ N3ACL.PA.USA.NOAM
Hilltown Township Bucks County rob...@kd3bj.ampr.org
Pennsylvania USA Grid FN20ii
Hams do it bouncing off the "F" layer
Alberto C Moreira
rob...@kd3bj.ampr.org (Robert E. Garland) wrote:
>
>I'm concerned about accuracy here. The only link to the area seems to be
>in the original post citing Stroudsburg and the Pocono Record as location
>and sources.
>
>The follow-up posts seem to have the county pegged as another location
>about 90 miles south.
Can anybody provide an objective, factual, ideology free, summary of what
really happened ? It might even help to know exactly where and when.
Alberto.
John Dulaney
Alberto C Moreira (alb...@moreira.mv.com) wrote:
: Can anybody provide an objective, factual, ideology free, summary of what
: really happened ? It might even help to know exactly where and when.
: Alberto.
Nothing is ideology-free.
John
~~~~~~~~~~
For a Political WEB PAGE
of some concern: http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
Steven R. Fordyce
rob...@kd3bj.ampr.org (Robert E. Garland) wrote:
>I'm concerned about accuracy here. The only link to the area seems to be
>in the original post citing Stroudsburg and the Pocono Record as location
>and sources.
The story also made the front page of the "Washington Times" on April 27th,
1996. This happened pretty much as it has been described here. I was at a
conference on OBE and Goals 2000 in Salem, Oregon last Saturday, and one of
the speakers was a teacher from PA. She had spoken to some of the parents
involved, and she reports that it is big news in PA, and she confirmed the
story. I can't guess why it isn't nationally outside of a few talk shows.
The criminal investigation is over, and no one was charged. But some
(perhaps all?) of the parents are suing with the support of the Rutherford
Institute.
What gets me, even more than the fact that the National Media has ignored
this, is the people who don't think this is that bad or excuse it in some
way. I have two daughters and I know what an experience like that would do
to them. They would never go to that school again, no matter what it took.
--
ste...@hevanet.com
John Dulaney
Steven R. Fordyce (stevenx_...@ccm.jf.intel.com) wrote:
: rob...@kd3bj.ampr.org (Robert E. Garland) wrote:
: >I'm concerned about accuracy here. The only link to the area seems to be
: >in the original post citing Stroudsburg and the Pocono Record as location
: >and sources.
: The story also made the front page of the "Washington Times" on April 27th,
: 1996. This happened pretty much as it has been described here. I was at a
: conference on OBE and Goals 2000 in Salem, Oregon last Saturday, and one of
: the speakers was a teacher from PA. She had spoken to some of the parents
: involved, and she reports that it is big news in PA, and she confirmed the
: story. I can't guess why it isn't nationally outside of a few talk shows.
Sorry....
I'm laughing just a bit...
Pardon me...
You must be with tongue-in-cheek saying that.
The Communist controlled mass media doesn't ever report that which
hurts it's agenda, that which it, itself is agressively promoting.
: The criminal investigation is over, and no one was charged. But some
: (perhaps all?) of the parents are suing with the support of the Rutherford
: Institute.
: What gets me, even more than the fact that the National Media has ignored
: this, is the people who don't think this is that bad or excuse it in some
: way. I have two daughters and I know what an experience like that would do
: to them. They would never go to that school again, no matter what it took.
: ste...@hevanet.com
I have 3 kids (2 boys 1 2 year old daughter).
It is GOALS 2000 "goal" (now nearly complete in many states) that
ALL students will be covered by it's public school laws.
It's the end of private and homeschooling.
Of course...we have property in Italy.
Time to pack.
No Nazi Communist Federal mandated stranger shall touch my
daughter!
John
For an Educational WEB PAGE that exposes, with verifiable FACTS!,
the shocking truth and conspiracy behind the Communist Russia Polytech
Vocation system known in the U.S.A. as GOALS 2000 and Outcome Based
Education (OBE):
http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
or ask for text versions E-mailed: jdul...@best.com
(request GOALS/OBE files as I have so files on many subjects)
LindaP
Diana_S...@wonder.wimsey.com (Diana Sandberg) wrote:
>>Unless conservative citizens voice their outrage,...
>Excuse me. What is this remark meant to imply? Are those of us who do not
>consider ourselves "conservative" supposed to be in favour of 12-year-olds
>being forced to have pelvic exams?
I didn't take the remark personally, although I consider myself to
be quite liberal :) (My friends claim I am a closet conservative...)
>I have been quite disturbed by this discussion. The original story is
>horrifying.
>I am concerned that I have heard nothing about it from any other source than
>this newsgroup, and also concerned that the issue seems to be claimed by
>"conservatives" as >their< issue and somehow proves something to their
>advantage, though I can't make out what they think this is.
It is not just a conservative issue by any means.. It is an issue
that every parent should be concerned with and informed about.
Situations like this one in PA. are going to occur more and more often
across the US unless parents take back the responsibility for raising
their own children and educating their own children.
I too was horrified when I first heard about this incident. But I was
far from surprised. This is what happens when parents are not in
charge of their children's lives.
School-based clinics are nothing new-- they are active in many school
districts across the US..... fortunately they are not in my district
yet.
IF this had happened to one of our daughters, by either a
'professional, teacher, doctor, lawyer, indian chief', - removing the
panties of an 11 year old girl to inspect her genitalia, - without our
explicit direction for a valid medical reason----- I doubt either my
husband or myself would be so calm as to 'notify the authorities' to
handle the problem.
For crying out loud! Those damn 'inspectors-doctors-whatever you want
to call them- are more at risk for genital herpes or genital warts
than 11 year old girls are!
LindaP
Steven R. Fordyce
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>Gloria Faley (sas...@worm.unx.sas.com) wrote:
>: If there is sexual abuse is suspected, examination occur now without
>: Goals 2000. I have rean John's stuff before and found it to full
>: of holes. Surely, NEA and AFT teachers read this newsgroup.
>
The documents you have posted (and thank you for them) variously have the date of
this event as March 19th, March 21st, and March 29th of this year (possibly a typo).
The correct date is March 19th.
Also, contrary to what you say or at least imply, Goals 2000 does not explicitly
call for forced vaginal exams of sixth grade girls (and if you are going to argue
with that, please quote the section that does). The philosophy behind Goals 2000
does, however, lead to, or at least allow for, this type of abuse. That philosophy
is that children are resources of society that must be trained for their usefullness
to industry, and that parents are just the providers of that resource who should
have no other say if it conflicts with the program of the experts. This is bad
enough without exaggerating it.
Yours for truth and justice,
Steven
--
ste...@hevanet.com
John Dulaney
: >: Goals 2000. I have rean John's stuff before and found it to full
: >: of holes. Surely, NEA and AFT teachers read this newsgroup.
: > Name a hole, please.
: The documents you have posted (and thank you for them) variously have
the date of : this event as March 19th, March 21st, and March 29th of this
year (possibly a typo). : The correct date is March 19th.
I never put a date to any of it and a wrong date doesn't
constitute a hole in my arguments,
: Also, contrary to what you say or at least imply, Goals 2000 does not
explicitly : call for forced vaginal exams of sixth grade girls (and if
you are going to argue : with that, please quote the section that does).
GOALS 2000 calls for the Federal Gov't to take complete
responsibility for the health care of children and if an appointed doctor
decides a vaginal exam is called for try and fight it.
The local police dropped the case instantly and didn't even
interview a single girl.
: The philosophy behind Goals 2000 : does, however, lead to, or at
least
allow for, this type of abuse. That philosophy : is that children are
resources of society that must be trained for their usefullness
It's more than a philosophy. It's in the ACT.
: to
industry, and that parents are just the providers of that resource who
should : have no other say if it conflicts with the program of the
experts. This is bad : enough without exaggerating it.
By the ACT a doctor could have done far worse and been within the
law.
If internal vaginal inspections are a legal part of GOALS 2000
then GOALS 2000 has been written to include vaginal inspections.
John
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Steven R. Fordyce
|: 1996. This happened pretty much as it has been described here. I was at a
|: conference on OBE and Goals 2000 in Salem, Oregon last Saturday, and one of
|: the speakers was a teacher from PA. She had spoken to some of the parents
|: involved, and she reports that it is big news in PA, and she confirmed the
|: story. I can't guess why it isn't nationally outside of a few talk shows.
|
| Sorry....
| I'm laughing just a bit...
| Pardon me...
| You must be with tongue-in-cheek saying that.
Just a bit. I am well aware of how biased the press is but still it sometimes
surprises even me.
| The Communist controlled mass media doesn't ever report that which
|hurts it's agenda, that which it, itself is agressively promoting.
Statements like that hurt your credibility far more than the media's, because it
isn't true. Our media, or more specifically the press, isn't communist controlled.
It is dominated by leftists (or at least Democrats) and their bias shows up in their
reporting, and just as important, what they choose to report on, but it is also
false to say they *never* report things that hurt their causes.
..
| I have 3 kids (2 boys 1 2 year old daughter).
| It is GOALS 2000 "goal" (now nearly complete in many states) that
|ALL students will be covered by it's public school laws.
| It's the end of private and homeschooling.
| Of course...we have property in Italy.
| Time to pack.
Italy is an odd place to go if you are looking for more freedom. Moreover, the
philosophy behind Goals 2000 is being pushed world wide by the UN.
| No Nazi Communist Federal mandated stranger shall touch my
|daughter!
"Nazi Communist"? Even people like me who consider Nazism a creature of the left
would find that laughable because the Nazis and communists hated each other for
their blasphemous differences. BTW, from what I know about Goals 2000, it is more
facist or Nazi than communist, but labeling these ideas is not as important as
letting people know what they are because most people will recognize them as bad if
they are just described in clear language.
In OBE or Goals 2000 children are seen as resources of society. The schools train
this resource for industry. In other words, industry is the customer. The goal is
to teach them just what they need to know to be good workers as part of the group.
Traditional education views children as individuals who are valued in their own
right. The goal is to develope them as well rounded citizens. The customer is the
parents.
You may wonder why I'm picking on you, John, when we share the goal of exposing what
is going on in the schools. I believe you hurt our common concerns with your wilder
claims.
--
ste...@hevanet.com
MEL PASTULA
This may seem to obvious a question to ask, but, WHAT ON EARTH IS THE
ENTIRE 6TH GRADE CLASS OF GIRLS DOING STANDING AROUND IN A SCHOOL
NURSE'S OFFICE WAITING TO BE "INSPECTED" WHEN THEY SHOULD BE IN CLASS
RECEIVING ACADEMIC INSTRUCTION ANYWAY?!!!!!! LET THEIR PARENTS TAKE
THEM TO THEIR OWN PEDIATRICIANS FOR THAT SORT OF MEDICAL HELP WHEN THEY
GET HOME FROM SCHOOL.!!!!! THAT'S WHAT DOCTOR'S OFFICES ARE FOR, AND
SCHOOLING IS WHAT SCHOOLS ARE FOR!!!!!
Just had to get it off my chest! :)
Julie Pastula
JB
"Steven R. Fordyce" <stevenx_...@ccm.jf.intel.com> wrote:
>In OBE or Goals 2000 children are seen as resources of society. The schools train
>this resource for industry. In other words, industry is the customer. The goal is
>to teach them just what they need to know to be good workers as part of the group.
>Traditional education views children as individuals who are valued in their own
>right. The goal is to develope them as well rounded citizens. The customer is the
>parents.
I don't think both points are mutually exclusive. When people talk
about well educated students being the product of education there is
some truth to it. Education is a service oriented industry with the
product being a student. Good schools and teachers produce good
students and vice versa. Industry is the customer in a direct sense
since they are the ones that then receive this product (student).
They either benefit or have to do remedial work with the student they
hire from education.
In another sense...education is a public good in that education
does not benefit just that individual. Society is not composed of
isolated islands in which each of us work seperately from the others
without any impact on other people. We all influence and impact each
others lives every day, wether you are a doctor, lawyer, or teacher.
Well educated doctors, teachers, businessmen, etc. benefit the
community just as much as being well educated benefits them as
individuals.
With that said...you can still have this view and believe in the
second statement you made that students are to be trained as citizens.
And the customer is the parents...true...but so as businesses. And a
service organization can have more than one customer.
--J
John Dulaney
Steven R. Fordyce (stevenx_...@ccm.jf.intel.com) wrote:
: | The Communist controlled mass media doesn't ever report that which
: |hurts it's agenda, that which it, itself is agressively promoting.
: Statements like that hurt your credibility far more than the media's,
because it : isn't true.
In your opinion, my friend.
Sadly, your opinion is tragically wrong.
Read my web page for insight and knowledge.
Our media, or more specifically the press, isn't
communist controlled. : It is dominated by leftists (or at least
Democrats) and their bias shows up in their : reporting, and just as
important, what they choose to report on, but it is also : false to say
they *never* report things that hurt their causes.
They only report them when they MUST to maintain the fraction of
credibility they still have.
: | I have 3 kids (2 boys 1 2 year old daughter).
: | It is GOALS 2000 "goal" (now nearly complete in many states) that
: |ALL students will be covered by it's public school laws.
: | It's the end of private and homeschooling.
: | Of course...we have property in Italy.
: | Time to pack.
: Italy is an odd place to go if you are looking for more freedom.
Hardly. Having live there for years, and across Europe, it's far
easier to escape fascism there than here.
Here the efficiency and sophistication is complete.
Moreover, the : philosophy behind Goals 2000 is being pushed world wide by
the UN.
True. But FIRST the battle is for America.
Falls America, falls the world.
In the mean time our children can be free!
I just sold our camper in Italy but will buy another and travel
non-stop as needed.
: | No Nazi Communist Federal mandated stranger shall touch my
: |daughter!
: "Nazi Communist"? Even people like me who consider Nazism a creature of
the left : would find that laughable because the Nazis and communists
hated each other for : their blasphemous differences.
Nazis were Socialists but the worst definitions of both exist
today in our own Wash. D.C. gover't.
BTW, from what I
know about Goals 2000, it is more : facist or Nazi than communist, but
They act with the historic force of Nazis/fascists but the goal is
the end of private property. That leaves us with Communism.
labeling these ideas is not as important as : letting people know what
they are because most people will recognize them as bad if : they are just
described in clear language.
It's hard to describe them.
It's best to use buzz words to gain interest then load them full
of facts.
: In OBE or Goals 2000 children are seen as resources of society. The
schools train : this resource for industry. In other words, industry is
the customer. The goal is : to teach them just what they need to know to
be good workers as part of the group.
And: Not complain, to believe their leaders are working for their
best interests etc.
The classic and original Prussian system which was brought to the
USA and installed in the mid 1800s.
: Traditional education views children as individuals who are valued in
their own : right. The goal is to develope them as well rounded citizens.
The customer is the : parents.
Agreed.
: You may wonder why I'm picking on you, John, when we share the goal of
exposing what : is going on in the schools. I believe you hurt our common
concerns with your wilder : claims. : -- : ste...@hevanet.com
But what if my wild claims are correct?
Here's something:
George Kuzmowycz
On 7 May 1996 03:16:35 GMT jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney)
wrote:
> No Nazi Communist Federal
So are they Nazis, *or* Communists? I may not be recalling my
history correctly, but I always thought Nazis *fought* Communists,
with millions of dead.
-gk-
LindaP
patr...@ix.netcom.com(MEL PASTULA ) wrote:
>Julie Pastula
Well said Julie!!!!
I have been absolutely amazed at the number of posts in these
newsgroups actually supporting this behavior at a school level.
Has everyone lost their common sense ???
Social agendas do not belong in school. Doctor visits do not belong
in school.
And on another note; how many women have been to a gyn for a
'genital' inspection' before they were sexually active?????
And what about the male students at that school?? Were their
underpants removed and their genitals checked???
As for the teachers at that school, wearing ribbons to show support
for what that doctor did--- they should all be fired.
LindaP
Joyce Hayden
JB wrote:
> I don't think both points are mutually exclusive. When people talk
> about well educated students being the product of education there is
> some truth to it. Education is a service oriented industry with the
> product being a student. Good schools and teachers produce good
> students and vice versa. Industry is the customer in a direct sense
> since they are the ones that then receive this product (student).
> They either benefit or have to do remedial work with the student they
> hire from education.
*Schools* are service oriented, not education. Education is the product of
schools. Students and parents are the primary customers, the community at
large is the secondary customer. To state that industry is the customer can
only be a true if the purpose and end of one's existence is to be a worker.
While gainful employment and meaningful contribution to the community at
large is to be encouraged, it is not the focus of man's existence. Man was
not created to serve industry. Industry serves man. To place undue allegiance
in a corporate entity, and to place humanity in a subservient position to
an entity driven by greed and the "bottom line" is inhumane. It has no place
in a civilized society.
Joyce Hayden
jha...@netaxs.com
David Petry
"Steven R. Fordyce" <stevenx_...@ccm.jf.intel.com> wrote:
>jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>| No Nazi Communist Federal mandated stranger shall touch my
>|daughter!
>"Nazi Communist"? Even people like me who consider Nazism a creature of the left
>would find that laughable because the Nazis and communists hated each other for
>their blasphemous differences.
Brothers can hate each other. For example, the Shiite Moslems
sometimes hate the Sunni Moslems.
JB
patr...@ix.netcom.com(MEL PASTULA ) wrote:
>This may seem to obvious a question to ask, but, WHAT ON EARTH IS THE
>ENTIRE 6TH GRADE CLASS OF GIRLS DOING STANDING AROUND IN A SCHOOL
>NURSE'S OFFICE WAITING TO BE "INSPECTED" WHEN THEY SHOULD BE IN CLASS
>RECEIVING ACADEMIC INSTRUCTION ANYWAY?!!!!!! LET THEIR PARENTS TAKE
>THEM TO THEIR OWN PEDIATRICIANS FOR THAT SORT OF MEDICAL HELP WHEN THEY
>GET HOME FROM SCHOOL.!!!!! THAT'S WHAT DOCTOR'S OFFICES ARE FOR, AND
>SCHOOLING IS WHAT SCHOOLS ARE FOR!!!!!
I believe that for many of the US's children, they aren't able to
go to the doctors for a variety of reasons...such as poverty. I think
the same thought went into this as went into the school lunch program
- people had found out the children weren't getting adequate nutrition
and some for some, in poverty, this was the only good meal they were
getting.
I agree that this incident is horrible, but let's not make the
mistake of making the exception the rule. This is not typical of what
happens in most schools. And if we wanted to go tid for tat I bet
there are cases in which a school physical or a school's nurse
actually helped a student. You don't hear about those cases because
no one reports them, most reports only focus on the negative.
Herman Rubin
In article <4mrrlf$e...@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
George Kuzmowycz <gku...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>On 7 May 1996 03:16:35 GMT jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney)
>wrote:
>> No Nazi Communist Federal
> So are they Nazis, *or* Communists? I may not be recalling my
>history correctly, but I always thought Nazis *fought* Communists,
>with millions of dead.
Totalitarians have no compunction about fighting totalitarians.
The difference between Nazis and Communists is minor.
One can have a totalitarian democratic state. The religious
wars of the 16th and 17th century in Europe were about which
religious totalitarianism to impose.
--
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (317)494-6054 FAX: (317)494-0558
Herman Rubin
In article <4mvdiu$e...@crash.microserve.net>,
>>This may seem to obvious a question to ask, but, WHAT ON EARTH IS THE
>>ENTIRE 6TH GRADE CLASS OF GIRLS DOING STANDING AROUND IN A SCHOOL
>>NURSE'S OFFICE WAITING TO BE "INSPECTED" WHEN THEY SHOULD BE IN CLASS
>>RECEIVING ACADEMIC INSTRUCTION ANYWAY?!!!!!! LET THEIR PARENTS TAKE
>>THEM TO THEIR OWN PEDIATRICIANS FOR THAT SORT OF MEDICAL HELP WHEN THEY
>>GET HOME FROM SCHOOL.!!!!! THAT'S WHAT DOCTOR'S OFFICES ARE FOR, AND
>>SCHOOLING IS WHAT SCHOOLS ARE FOR!!!!!
....................
> I agree that this incident is horrible, but let's not make the
>mistake of making the exception the rule. This is not typical of what
>happens in most schools. And if we wanted to go tid for tat I bet
>there are cases in which a school physical or a school's nurse
>actually helped a student. You don't hear about those cases because
>no one reports them, most reports only focus on the negative.
I suggest that this argument be completely prohibited; it is exactly
this approach which allows the state to claim that more good is done
than evil, and therefore the action is appropriate.
This argument has been used against homeschooling; the claim was
directly made that the socialization aspect of being in school
outweighed any educational consequences to the contrary. Anyone
who would order someone to do something for his or her own good
has no place in a free society.
Nancy K
jba...@microserve.net (JB) wrote:
>patr...@ix.netcom.com(MEL PASTULA ) wrote:
>>This may seem to obvious a question to ask, but, WHAT ON EARTH IS THE
>>ENTIRE 6TH GRADE CLASS OF GIRLS DOING STANDING AROUND IN A SCHOOL
>>NURSE'S OFFICE WAITING TO BE "INSPECTED" WHEN THEY SHOULD BE IN CLASS
>>RECEIVING ACADEMIC INSTRUCTION ANYWAY?!!!!!! LET THEIR PARENTS TAKE
>>THEM TO THEIR OWN PEDIATRICIANS FOR THAT SORT OF MEDICAL HELP WHEN THEY
>>GET HOME FROM SCHOOL.!!!!! THAT'S WHAT DOCTOR'S OFFICES ARE FOR, AND
>>SCHOOLING IS WHAT SCHOOLS ARE FOR!!!!!
> I believe that for many of the US's children, they aren't able to
>go to the doctors for a variety of reasons...such as poverty.
Possibly. But it is a complete invasion of privacy. The parents, at
the very minimum, should have been asked for their consent. Do you
disagree?
> I think
>the same thought went into this as went into the school lunch program
>- people had found out the children weren't getting adequate nutrition
>and some for some, in poverty, this was the only good meal they were
>getting.
> I agree that this incident is horrible, but let's not make the
>mistake of making the exception the rule.
The issue is, is machinery in place to make this the rule?
> This is not typical of what
>happens in most schools. And if we wanted to go tid for tat I bet
>there are cases in which a school physical or a school's nurse
>actually helped a student. You don't hear about those cases because
>no one reports them, most reports only focus on the negative.
>
Nancy K
-----------
If men use their liberty in such a way as to surrender their liberty,
are they thereafter any the less slaves? If people by a plebiscite
elect a man despot over them, do they remain free because the
despotism was of their own making?
- Herbert Spencer
The New Toryism, 1884
glindahl
Nancy K (nan...@bga.com) wrote:
: >>This may seem to obvious a question to ask, but, WHAT ON EARTH IS THE
: >>ENTIRE 6TH GRADE CLASS OF GIRLS DOING STANDING AROUND IN A SCHOOL
: >>NURSE'S OFFICE WAITING TO BE "INSPECTED" WHEN THEY SHOULD BE IN CLASS
: >>RECEIVING ACADEMIC INSTRUCTION ANYWAY?!!!!!! LET THEIR PARENTS TAKE
: >>THEM TO THEIR OWN PEDIATRICIANS FOR THAT SORT OF MEDICAL HELP WHEN THEY
: >>GET HOME FROM SCHOOL.!!!!! THAT'S WHAT DOCTOR'S OFFICES ARE FOR, AND
: >>SCHOOLING IS WHAT SCHOOLS ARE FOR!!!!!
: > I believe that for many of the US's children, they aren't able to
: >go to the doctors for a variety of reasons...such as poverty.
: Possibly. But it is a complete invasion of privacy. The parents, at
: the very minimum, should have been asked for their consent. Do you
: disagree?
: > I agree that this incident is horrible, but let's not make the
: >mistake of making the exception the rule.
: The issue is, is machinery in place to make this the rule?
: > This is not typical of what
: >happens in most schools. And if we wanted to go tid for tat I bet
: >there are cases in which a school physical or a school's nurse
: >actually helped a student. You don't hear about those cases because
: >no one reports them, most reports only focus on the negative.
How do we know this incident actually took place? I've looked in vain
for someone to tell us which school is involved but no luck so far. Or
have I missed it?
Didn't we used to get polio shots in the gym? Didn't we used to get our
eyes checked and our hearing checked and our teeth checked in school? I
did, and that was many many years ago!
Is that a bad thing?
John Ellis
glin...@panix.com (glindahl) wrote:
>How do we know this incident actually took place? I've looked in vain
>for someone to tell us which school is involved but no luck so far. Or
>have I missed it?
You must have missed it. You can get the initial report from the
Pocono Record, Friday March 22, 1996 issue, and the city this took
place in is East Stroudsburg, PA. The phone number of the J. T.
Lambert Intermediate school (where the even took place) is
717-424-8430. Or, if you would like to contact the School District
office, there number is 717-424-8505.
A good link with all the pertinent facts is at
http://www.reagan.com/cgi-bin/main/hottopics/1996/4/ht042319963.html
I personally heard the radio interview on the Chuck Harder (People's
Radio Network) talk show here in Burley, Idaho. They had two of the
parents and the one school board official that attempted to go against
the current policy.
>Didn't we used to get polio shots in the gym? Didn't we used to get our
>eyes checked and our hearing checked and our teeth checked in school? I
>did, and that was many many years ago!
>Is that a bad thing?
Maybe. First, the school is an extension of the government, at least
at this point in history. Do we want the government "taking care of
us poor stupid citizens"? But, even if we do want these types of
services, they d*** well better not touch one of my daughters without
my permission, or I'll file statutory rape charges. It's that simple.
Maybe that's why they are trying this BS in Pennsylvania first. The
people here in Idaho are likely to go after those involved with a
shotgun! I'm not advocating violence, just telling things as they are
out here. We don't take kindly to strangers playing "Doctor" with our
children.
John Ellis
mje...@cyberhighway.net
Idaho Central Interchange BBS: (208) 677-2028
John Dulaney
: >This may seem to obvious a question to ask, but, WHAT ON EARTH IS THE
: >ENTIRE 6TH GRADE CLASS OF GIRLS DOING STANDING AROUND IN A SCHOOL
: >NURSE'S OFFICE WAITING TO BE "INSPECTED" WHEN THEY SHOULD BE IN CLASS
: >RECEIVING ACADEMIC INSTRUCTION ANYWAY?!!!!!! LET THEIR PARENTS TAKE
: >THEM TO THEIR OWN PEDIATRICIANS FOR THAT SORT OF MEDICAL HELP WHEN THEY
: >GET HOME FROM SCHOOL.!!!!! THAT'S WHAT DOCTOR'S OFFICES ARE FOR, AND
: >SCHOOLING IS WHAT SCHOOLS ARE FOR!!!!!
: I believe that for many of the US's children, they aren't able to
: go to the doctors for a variety of reasons...such as poverty. I think
: the same thought went into this as went into the school lunch program
: - people had found out the children weren't getting adequate nutrition
: and some for some, in poverty, this was the only good meal they were
: getting.
: I agree that this incident is horrible, but let's not make the
: mistake of making the exception the rule. This is not typical of what
: happens in most schools.
This is typical of the ideals, principals and goals of GOALS 2000.
This is just the start.
Soon all children will fall under this Soviet system of slavery
where the State owns the people and only the Nomenclatura has anything of
value.
And if we wanted to go tid for tat I bet
: there are cases in which a school physical or a school's nurse
: actually helped a student. You don't hear about those cases because
: no one reports them, most reports only focus on the negative.
A school needs written authority from a parent to give a child an
asperin but with no permission at all and with the full force of the law
children are given condons, instruction on homosexual sex acts and
internal vaginal exams in locked rooms against the will of the child and
knowledge of the parents.
This is Totalitarianism.
Nothing less.
Arrest all in D.C., all NEA bosses, fire and/or arrest all NEA
teachers NOW!
Jail for many and death to treasoners (even most).
John
John Dulaney
Herman Rubin (hru...@b.stat.purdue.edu) wrote:
: > I agree that this incident is horrible, but let's not make the
: >mistake of making the exception the rule. This is not typical of what
: >there are cases in which a school physical or a school's nurse
: >actually helped a student. You don't hear about those cases because
: >no one reports them, most reports only focus on the negative.
: This argument has been used against homeschooling; the claim was
: directly made that the socialization aspect of being in school
: outweighed any educational consequences to the contrary. Anyone
: who would order someone to do something for his or her own good
: has no place in a free society.
All tests have shown that homeschooling actually produces more
fully developed, healthier and more sophisticated adults as pertains to
socialization.
Decades of comparisons show that schools produce a vastly inferior
product in this sense compared to homeschooling.
There is no question.
[BTW, homeschooling was the only way education was done in the US
150 years ago.
6 year olds read and understood the classics, literacy was higher
then than now.
Today in many college bookstores the highest math books are what
was taught in 1955 to 12 year olds!!!!!!!]
Besides, a certain percentage of children arrive home in coffins
from schools!
Not a nice surprise for the parents!
But, of course, that's the entire end result of Communism:
Death, destruction, ignorance, slavery and hopelesness.
Recent studies show that criminals have an overdeveloped sense of
self-confidence while, at the same time, without benefit of any skills,
education or success to provide a reason for such self-respect.
In fact, it is EXACTLY THIS that public schools produce by the
millions today! ~~~~~~~~~~~~
No education just a bunch of kids being told they're great and
wonderful, getting all As on grades, or no grading at all.
When they graduate they feel Great about themselves, full of self
confidence, but have never actually done anything to be worthy of this
feeling.
Therefore they end up both stupid, shocked at the reality of the
job scene and depressed.
Recently, in a new study, many major corporations reported that
1/3 of all job applicants for min. wage jobs were unqualified in reading
and math for even these basic positions.
Adults incapable of even the lowest job available!
Even sweeping the floor!
Even delivering the internal mail!
Even running an elevator!
Thanks, Liberals!
John Dulaney
glindahl (glin...@panix.com) wrote:
: How do we know this incident actually took place? I've looked in vain
: for someone to tell us which school is involved but no luck so far. Or
: have I missed it?
Call the school, the police or see my WEB PAGE.
~~~~~~~~~~
For a Political WEB PAGE
of some concern: http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
The following is a group of reports on GOALS 2000 and Outcome Based
Education (taken straight out of Communist Soviet Russia's Polytech
Avocation brainwash schools) as they begin to effect our country.:
Scranton, PA (I believe) as heard tonight on Michael Reagan.
The effects of GOALS 2000:
59 12-year-old (6th grader) school girls forced to strip nude and
undergo genital exams by school officials against their will, without
notification to or authorization by parents.
They were examined for diseases and potential parental abuse.
A fishing expedition to arrest white males?
Many girls had already had physical exams by their own doctors.
The school claimed they had lost those reports.
Many children broke into tears and begged to call their mothers but
were refused and forced to undergo the exam against their will.
Outraged parents called police who refused to interview a single
child and quickly closed the case.
(See below for an URL reference address on this story.)
What madness is this?
That state and school are under GOALS 2000 (which is an even more
totalitarian torture-brainwashing than the Soviet Polytech Vocation
schools on which it is based) and there is nothing to be done.
Parents and police can do nothing. The state accepted a few
pennies of Federal money and with it come Federal laws. To interfere would
be to break Federal law.
One by one the various elements of Goals 2000 and Outcome Based
Education make their tape-worm paths into our front doors, our living
rooms, our bedrooms, our minds and, now, into the vaginas of our terrified
daughters screaming in humiliation and shock. Who can guess the effect of
Nazi-era police-state brutality?
We conservatives are so bloody backwards.
Next it's "Salo'", concentration camps, the ovens.... Armageddon
dare we speak out against the horrors our lives have become and certainly
if we don't.
Are there concentration camps being built for disenters as is
reportedly surmised in AMERICAN FREEDOM magazine?
"1984" is just 12 years late though it was already on it's way
through the last century.
California has just signed for GOALS 2000. California's education
budget is more than 16 $Billion and Pete Wilson signed away our children
into Totalitarian Ruin for the $42 million that comes with GOALS 2000.
That money works out to 75 cents per child.
WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They are disarming us as they did in Nazi Germany!
They are stripping our children of their God-given dignity and
filling their hearts and minds with hatred for their country, themselves
and their families!
The borders are opened up to the leeches of third world countries,
in San Francisco a movement to allow NON-U.S. Citizens to VOTE is afoot
and will likely be accepted though unconstitutional.
Illegals allowed to vote in their own countries and ours to
determine what will go on in both countries!
With enough non-citizens voting they can vote to give-up city
after city to Mexico or do whatever voting power can do!
I have property in Italy.
I think I'll trade it for property in Albania where we'll enjoy
more freedom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply-To: hitt...@aol.com (Hitthegas)
I read about this too in the Michael Reagan forum You can get a very good
text on the FACTS at
http://www.reagan.com/cgi-bin/main/hottopics/1996/4/ht042319963.html
Giving out the information doesn't make one a lunatic....
It appears the lunatics were at the East Stroudsburg school board meeting
and sitting on the board.
Just because we've chosen to raise our children at home shouldn't mean we
have quit caring about the children who may not have been afforded that
option.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From John Dulaney:
Since a full reading of GOALS 2000 shows that ALL children will
come under it's laws, homeschoolers and private schoolers alike!, and
since 45 states have already taken a few pennies and signed up for this US
style Soviet Communist Polytechnic Avocation school system and all will do
so soon - WE are living in a Police State under Martial Law NOW!
Fri Apr 26 17:39:24 1996 Path:
From: janeth <jan...@srvr.third-wave.com>
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: 12 Year old Girls Violated by GOALS 2000-Literally-->>
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>I read about this too in the Michael Reagan forum You can get a very good
>text on the FACTS at
>http://www.reagan.com/cgi-bin/main/hottopics/1996/4/ht042319963.html
I first heard about this story yesterday. I have to admit, I didn't catch
the entire story at first, and didn't think to look into it further
becuase what I heard was just absolutely unbelievable. I thought I had to
mishear this.
Now, after reading this document, and other accounts of the incident, I am
outraged. I live in Pennsylvania and the only place I heard about it was
on my local conservative morning talk show (available on the internet at
http://www.rrk.com). What a sad thing. The media would be jumping ugly
about this, shoving microphones into the faces of the poor victims,
braodcasting again and again this outrage IF it would have happened in
private school, and not been related to Goals 2000. Knowing that this
exam is not only supported by Goals 2000, but also required by it, just
makes me sick when I see Bill Clinton on the television proclaiming that
he saved education from those mean-spirited Republicans. Give me a break!
When I went to school, not too long ago, we had to have permission from
our parents for just about everything. I can't imagine my school district
being this uncaring about its students as to force a crying little girl to
disrobe and spread her legs. What kind of doctor would give an exam of
this nature against the will of the individual? Not to mention the fact
that this doctor is now hiding behind the 'Well, hey, it is legal'
defense. Does that provide anyone out there any comfort?
Ordering a child to take off his or her clothes, especially without the
consent of the
child's parents, ought to be illegal, no matter who is asking. I don't
care what the purpose of this exam is, nor do I care how 'qualified' the
hands of the offender are, this is plain wrong. How can we teach our
children to trust and respect authority figures when they so badly abuse
their power.
This is nothing short of child molestation. If there is such a legal
technicality to get around this, we should get rid of it. I am so
disgusted by this story. My heart goes out to all the parents and
children involved in this. I hope you can find some kind of justice.
Will ONE WORLD COMMUNIST government affect your family?
YOU BET!
Corrected WEB PAGE addresses:
Please send me any to add to this list.
(And report problems back to me) - jdul...@best.com)
http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------
For ONE WORLD GOV'T and other political WEB PAGEs see:
(I don't vouch that all these are 100% legit and not from some gov't
agent(cy) - read and respond with caution, friends.)
http://Syninfo.COM/crier/index.htmlx
and : http://www.bath.ac.uk/~adsjrc/eu/inf-main.htm
and : http://www.together.org/orgs/wcw/gov.html
and : http://www.webcom.com/~worldgov/indrob.html
and : http://www.cruzio.com/~tim/wcpa/how.html
and : http://crystalpt.com/alshome/alshome.htm
Here's someone who needs help. I assume it's legit.
and : http://constitution.org/mwilliams/mwilliams.htm
(His is SOME story!)
and : http://www.lookup.com/Homepages/65177/johnson/
and : http://www.peg.apc.org/~newdawn
and : http://www.instanet.com/~vct
I also have a dozen files of great current interrest.
These can be e-mailed as text or zipped.
Just ask for them.
From HPB...@aol.com Sat Apr 27 09:29:38 1996
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 00:28:52 -0400
From: HPB...@aol.com
To: 10070...@compuserve.com, sheilawissner <news...@tennessean.com>
Subject: Unbelieveable!!
Subj: Unbelieveable!!
Date: 96-04-26 23:02:16 EDT
From: cenm...@socketis.net (William C. Beeler)
Senator John Ashcroft
United States Senate
Washington DC
Dear Senator Ashcroft:
On April 24th 1996, received the following message
via fax with no heading or fax authorization number. As I
don't post anything that hasn't been verified went to work
with limited direction as where to verify the following; now
furnished documentation has arrived and will forward on
to your staff for analysis and a reply. It can be via
snail mail or what ever.
As my mind cannot fully comprehend the following,
hopefully some member of Congress or Senate can explain
where this Nation has evolved to such procedural injustice
perpetrated on the innocent. There is no politically
correct answer to the following. As the information is
lengthy will post this at various intervals.
************************************************************
The Following Fax Received (no heading)
On March 29, 1996 at J.T. Lambert Elementary School, in the
State of Pennsylvania, (59) fifty nine little 6th grade
girls were taken to the nurses office and stripped down
and then forced to undergo a physical exam against their
will and without parental permission. This exam included
a genital and pelvic exam.
These little girls were crying and stated that their parents
would not be in agreement with this. The School Nurse
blocked the door and would not let them leave. A visiting
doctor performed the exams. After this exam some girls were
experiencing pain, bleeding and severe trauma necessitating
mental therapy.
The doctor has been quoted as saying "The parents have no
say so over what a doctor does to a child during an exam"
The member of the school board member proposed that a child
could not be examined (boy or girl) below the waist without
parental permission or the childs' permission. This was
voted down 8 to 1. The (1) being the school board member
who made the proposal.
The State Police investigated but refused to question the
girls!
We are asking that you call the State Police and demand that
they talk with the 59 little girls that were violated! The
phone # is (717)424 - 3037.
We are asking that you call the State Attorney General and
demand that they investigate! They will tell you to call
the Prosecuting Attorney. Don't let them talk you into it,
demand that they investigate! The phone # is (717)787-3391.
Parents are asking that you call the school superintendent
and demand action which includes the firing of the school
nurse. The phone # (717)424-8500 or (717)424 - 8430.
The nurse's name is Ms Dougherty.
If they ask why you feel you have a right to call when you
live out of state, tell them you are a concerned tax-paying
citizen!
This is what can happen (and did) under school clinic
program of Goals 2000!!!!!!!!
************************************************************
I put out a request for verification and was flooded with
information. Upon reading and attempting to digest the
articles, total amazement, concern, then the anger just
began to permeate my analysis. Somewhere, there will be
an answer and the proper "Officials" will be held responsible for the
enactment of such authority if by God
there is such an authority then woe to the perpetrators!!
This is no threat but a promise to follow this to its end
and expose the injustices mandadated against the innocent!!
************************************************************
The following article from the Pocono Record, Writer -- and
was submitted by Tara Gravel, Friday March 22, 1996 (B-1)
DOCTOR, SCHOOL OFFICIALS DENY PHYSICALS WERE INAPPROPRIATE!!
EAST STROUDSBURG -- Police Thursday investigated parents'
complaints about physicals given to some J.T. Lambert Inter-
mediate School sixth-grade girls.
Some parents told school officials that their daughters were
given an internal gynecological exam Tuesday.
School officials, as well as the East Stroudsburg pedia-
trician who performed the exams, say there was only an ex-
ternal examination of genitalia -- with some touching --
which is within parameters set by the State Department of
Health.
State police from Swiftwater came to the same conclusion.
Some parents who acknowledge that their daughters were given
an external genital exam said even that went to far in
school.
Several parents called the Pocono Record Thursday saying
their daughters were traumatized.
Katie and Paul Tucker of Bushkill said their 11-year-old
daughter was touched internally.
"She said most of the girls were crying. She tried to be
brave . . . She didn't go to school today because she was
afraid." Mrs. Tucker said.
Mr. Tucker said. "I know her regular doctor would not
have. . .done (that) She knows enough about her private
parts. When she say no. she means no. Why not just rape
her and deny it?"
Parents who called the paper told a similar story: Girls
were asked to wait while partially clothed; some asked not
to have their genitals examined, but were told they had to;
some started to cry, and at least one was denied a call
home.
Dr. Ramiah Vahanvaty, who performed the exams, said no one
was forced.
At least one school nurse was present.
"What it involved is an external examination of the labia
to see if there were any warts or vaginal lesions. You
can't see these if you don't retract the (labia)." Vahanvaty
said.
"I do this in my office on a daily basis with newborns to
children up to 18," she continued.
She said s "She believes one parent started a rumor that has
escalated."
"Before they start spreading rumors they should find out the
facts. I think ignorance has a large role to play in this.
It's totally ludicrous and out of proportion."
Vahanvaty said.
But parents say they came to their conclusions after talk-
ing to their daughters, who complained about the exam.
"For sixth-grade girls, that's like looking where nobody
has ever been. I really feel for them. But some of the
stories night be exaggerated because the girls and parents
are so upset," said a Bushkill parent, who asked not to be
identified.
Elaine Schneider of Bushkill said her daughter came home and
said, "I'm never going to go through that again."
Vahanvaty said there was a lot of apprehension among some
girls. but that she explained each part of the exam. When
asked if some of the girls were crying, she said "I don't
remember." (Scribner's note "who else has this predominate
answer when confronted with questions?'
"I want what's in the best interest of the children; I'm
doing a service . . . A lot of them haven't seen a phy-
sician in a few years. . .I took lots of hours of my own
private time to do this." (Scribners note "Was she paid
by the State?")
(Scribners note: The following is the expression and the
total attitude of everyone involved with Federal and State
mandated programs -- end note)
Later she said "Even a parent doesn't have the right to say
what's appropriate for a physician to do when they're doing
an exam. Parents were sent letters home saying they could
be there. Few chose to show." (Scribners Note: I wonder
if the letters were sent and the time frame sent?)
The school will hold meetings on the issue at 5 and 6 p.m.
Monday.
************************************************************
For a complete understanding how this authorization has
been generated the following Phone Number is provided
for a magazine article (and subscription) that explains
in detail how parents have been blind-sided with enact-
ments of legislation that they weren't aware of!! Phone #
(515) 262 - 8547 "The Christian Conscience Magazine"
************************************************************
This will be the end of the first part of many articles that
will follow.
William C. Beeler
3801 Grace Ellen Dr.
Columbia, Missouri 65202
E-Mail: cenm...@socketis.net (william-beeler)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
MORE on the Violation of 12 year old girls as ordered by GOALS 200:
From 10070...@CompuServe.COM Tue Apr 30 12:04:42 1996
Date: 30 Apr 96 12:25:26 EDT
From: Michael Williams <10070...@CompuServe.COM>
To: BlindCopyReceiver: ;
Subject: IN-SCHOOL GENITAL EXAM ON SIXTH GRADE GIRLS
************************************************************
IN-SCHOOL GENITAL EXAM ON SIXTH GRADE GIRLS
Sixth graders were instructed to strip to their underwear
and wait; that a genital exam was part of the state-mandated
physical. Students asked if they had to submit to genital
examination. When told it was required, 16 girls began cry-
ing. Although the nurse called them, "babies," 11-year-old-
Susie persisted. "I want to call my mother. My mother
wouldn't want you to do this to me." School staff denied
her request to phone home.
On March 19, 1996, a pediatrician in Pennsylvania's East
Stroudsbury Area School District performed an in-school
physical on 50 sixth-graders -- which included a genital
exam.
Susie's mother, Katie Tucker said, "My daughter told me
that the doctor digitally penetrated her. It's a
nightmare." "Although other parents apparently received
notices about the school physical, I didn't receive a
consent form or notification."
One mother (name withheld) who did receive a notice said,
"I wrote on the form that my daughter was NOT to have a
school physical. She refused the exam; but they did it
anyway." Now that sixth grader is experiencing nightmares
and wakes up repeating. "But I said, 'no'. I said, 'no'."
Some children felt pain, one girl apparently experienced
spotting after the physical.
The district's assistant superintendent explained, although
not required, a visual genitalia examination is state-
approved. (Scribners note: In future series of this event,
will provide the authorization that is utilized by schools
given un-knowingly by most parents)! Officials in another
school district volunteered that they also include a genital
exam for sixth graders.
According to the Pocono Record the pediatrician stated, "Even
a parent doesn't have the right to say what's appropriate
for a physician to do when they're [sic] doing an exam."
(Scribners note: The following was received and will
include his comment as follows, Quote; "Let me tell you
something, Mr. Beeler...I was (and part time, still am)
involved in medicine for 14 years; my wife is a nurse, and
soon to be a nurse practitioner and we will both tell you
and ANYONE who has ANY "confusion" about this statement
here." ***PARENTS HAVE**EVERY RIGHT**TO TELL A PHYSICIAN
WHAT HE/SHE CAN AND CANNOT DO TO THEIR KIDS!!!!!!!!!***
Especially in the school, for crying out loud... Tell me
...please...that people are NOT going to be stupid enough
to believe this. For C___t Sakes, their KIDS were
"officially" fondled and at least in one case, partially
raped." end Quote.)
Pennsylvania's branch of the NEA rallied around the pedia-
trician, school nurses, and state's right to permit an in-
school genital exam. To demonstrate their approval, tea-
chers began wearing blue ribbons, Three hundred children --
to plead their case --- started wearing homemade pink
ribbons.
Officials claimed parents' "emotional' reaction, not the
physical, upset the little girls. But Dr. E. W. Throck-
morton, president elect of the American Mental Health
Counselors Association, disagreed. He stated, "The fun-
damental rights of parents to direct health care was
apparently violated by this intrusive exam."
President Clinton's education law, Goals 2000, directs
public schools to offer free, health-related, "one-stop
shopping" services to all students, like East Strouds-
burg's sixth graders. Susie's mother asks, "Maybe it's
the school's plan to align itself with Goals 2000?" In
fact, her school district receives $25,000 from Goals
2000.
Mrs. Tucker adds, " As parents, we teach our children to
say, 'no' to being exposed and touched at school, her voice
went unheeded."
---------------------------------------------------------
See PATRIOTS of the CONSTITUTION AMERICAN Web Page:
http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
jdul...@best.com
From patr...@ix.netcom.com Wed May 1 06:41:43 1996
Crawford Kilian
John Dulaney,jdul...@nntp.best.com,Internet writes:
Recently, in a new study, many major corporations reported that
1/3 of all job applicants for min. wage jobs were unqualified in reading
and math for even these basic positions.
Adults incapable of even the lowest job available!
Even sweeping the floor!
Even delivering the internal mail!
Even running an elevator!
Thanks, Liberals!
Aw,John--All those studies you cite...surely they were done by the stupid,
NEA-brainwashed products of the Communist system that you miraculously
escaped. How can you trust what those bolshy academics would say, and how
could you expect the Truth to be published in a Communist country like the
USA where adults can't even learn how to sweep the floor, fly an airplane, or
log on to misc.education?
We love you anyway--
Crawford Kilian
Another sorry product of the US, Mexican and Canadian education systems--only
17 books published, and not even a Communist Party membership card to show
for my wasted schooling.
cki...@hubcap.mlnet.com
fletcher
In article <4n03jt$q...@panix.com>,
glin...@panix.com (glindahl) wrote:
>How do we know this incident actually took place? I've looked in vain
>for someone to tell us which school is involved but no luck so far. Or
>have I missed it?
Allentown Morning Call
Saturday, March 23, 1996
PHYSICALS UPSET SIXTH-GRADE STUDENTS
SOME PARENTS COMPLAIN ABOUT SCHOOL EXAMINATIONS
PERFORMED ON DAUGHTERS
Kathleen Parrish, The Morning Call
Some East Stroudsburg parents are upset over a physical examination
performed on their
sixth-grade daughters at J.T. Lambert Intermediate School....
The whole story is up on the web at http://www.winternet.com/~radams/exams/
-fletcher
David L. Hanson
>I have been absolutely amazed at the number of posts in these
>newsgroups actually supporting this behavior at a school level.
>Has everyone lost their common sense ???
>Social agendas do not belong in school. Doctor visits do not belong
>in school.
I agree with you, Linda but don't be amazed that the State has done its job of
indoctrination well. The State has taken away our liberties and has dumbed
down most of us not to realize it. No child should ever be subjected to the
evil of government education.
David L. Hanson
"Ye MUST be born again"
John Dulaney
In US and most other schools political brainwashing is and has
been the norm for 4-5 decades.
No actually practical teaching is done, in fact strictist orders
from the Communist controlled NEA (the biggest union in the world) have
been to make sure children do NOT get any education at all.
College graduates can often not even read their own diplomas but
that is the purpose, to make them so ignorant of life that they will never
be able to determine who is responsible for their plight.
The harsh indoctrination in school aims at pagan worship of nature
as God and years of getting perfect scores for having done no work at all
and accomplishing nothing produces dangerous teens and adults filled with
false self-confidence and recent studies show that this type of
personality is the basis for criminal pathology.
The USA is ranked at the bottom of educational achievement of all
industrialized nations and it gets worse every year.
Instead of teaching kids to read they are read to from
liberal/Socialist tracts disguised as literature.
Sexual perversions are treated as normal and the degradation of
the mind and spirit is the simple goal.
All this is needed to enfeeble the country for the coming One
World Communist government.
Is all this a fabrication on my part?
Of course not and every teacher/administrator and NEA Communist
Boss in this newsgroup knows it.
For proof see my WEB PAGE.
John
John Dulaney
Crawford Kilian (cki...@hubcap.mlnet.com) wrote:
: John Dulaney,jdul...@nntp.best.com,Internet writes:
: Recently, in a new study, many major corporations reported that
: 1/3 of all job applicants for min. wage jobs were unqualified in reading
: and math for even these basic positions.
: Adults incapable of even the lowest job available!
: Even sweeping the floor!
: Even delivering the internal mail!
: Even running an elevator!
: Thanks, Liberals!
: Aw,John--All those studies you cite...surely they were done by the stupid,
: NEA-brainwashed products of the Communist system that you miraculously
: escaped. How can you trust what those bolshy academics would say, and how
: could you expect the Truth to be published in a Communist country like the
: USA where adults can't even learn how to sweep the floor, fly an airplane, or
: log on to misc.education?
: We love you anyway--
: Crawford Kilian
Sorry,
Your public school Socialist brainwashed, Communist-cliche'd,
agit-prop, spew of black lies, red herrings, straw men, Marxist-Stalinist
Totalitarian "1984", Brave New World, One World Dictatorship, mooching,
felonious, treasonous, cowardly, dangerous, insensitive, anti-human
collection of letters aimed at bringing about the destruction of millions
of innocent babies, children and adults and enslaving the world while
destroying it's ecosystem wasn't good enough to illicit more than this
auto-bot file.
Please try again from behind bars or from the grave.
Your compassionate, feeling-your-pain, friend,
John Dulaney
glindahl
John Dulaney (jdul...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
: In US and most other schools political brainwashing is and has
Where do you GET this stuff? And do you have any facts of any kind to
back any of this up? Do you rave during the full moon? Or is this your
normal style of discourse? Has it slowed you down any to realize that
there is no communist movement anymore? Are you there? John? John?
Nik...@ltec.net
Just the fact that this did happen, whether part of the Goals 2000 or
not, it should scare you, especially if you have children in the
public schools. Somehow, I don't think all 59 of those girls are
lying and they are at an age where they know the truth from fantasy.
Just because it happened in Pennsylvania, doesn't mean it can't happen
where you live. Like my grandmother always said, if there's smoke
there's fire; meaning there's usually a spark of truth to a rumor.
I know they didn't ask my permission before administering a hearing
test to my kindergarten daughter and my first grade son, so obviously
the school nurse is exempt from the same laws that required they ask
permission before administering an educational evaluation of my son,
which I do have a right to deny or demand a third party of my choice
to administer.
John Dulaney
glindahl (glin...@panix.com) wrote:
: : Of course not and every teacher/administrator and NEA Communist
: : Boss in this newsgroup knows it.
: : For proof see my WEB PAGE.
: Where do you GET this stuff? And do you have any facts of any kind to
: back any of this up? Do you rave during the full moon? Or is this your
: normal style of discourse? Has it slowed you down any to realize that
: there is no communist movement anymore? Are you there? John? John?
Read this and call them yourself:
From HPB...@aol.com Sat Apr 27 09:29:55 1996
Dear Senator Ashcroft:
--
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* Colorful Giant Web Page: http://www.best.com/~jdulaney
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* Or: E-Mail for Text catalogs - State which you need, please.
* Voice (510) 673-0101 - FAX 0103 - PAGER (510) 975-7708 - MIND LOGIC
~~~~~~~~~~
For a Political WEB PAGE
of some concern: http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is riducled. Second, it is
violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
--- Authur Schopenhauer
John Dulaney
Nik...@ltec.net wrote:
: Just the fact that this did happen, whether part of the Goals 2000 or
: not, it should scare you, especially if you have children in the
: public schools.
40% of the liberal teachers/administrators in our country send
their children to private schools and have been told by the NEA that their
children will become part of the 5% top elite in the nation, unsubjected
to the brainwashing of the other 95% drone/robots.
See my web page for full text details.
Somehow, I don't think all 59 of those girls are
: lying and they are at an age where they know the truth from fantasy.
The school openly admits it all took place as described.
Want the tel. #?
: Just because it happened in Pennsylvania, doesn't mean it can't happen
: where you live.
Goals 2000 has been signed on in whole or part by 45 states so
far.
It's all a done-deal.
No opposition is possible from us.
We've been sold out by all parties.
Like my grandmother always said, if there's smoke
: there's fire; meaning there's usually a spark of truth to a rumor.
What rumor?
Want the tel. #?
John
Roger Post
Thanks John
I had been in the dark about where this had taken place also. I still wonder
why the tabloid press have not picked this up.
Roger
Roger Post
> Didn't we used to get polio shots in the gym? Didn't we used to get our
> eyes checked and our hearing checked and our teeth checked in school? I
> did, and that was many many years ago!
>
> Is that a bad thing?
>
>
done at least that is the way I remember it.
We still test vision here and parents can request that their children not be
tested.
Roger
Mark Boline
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>Nik...@ltec.net wrote:
>: Just the fact that this did happen, whether part of the Goals 2000 or
>: not, it should scare you, especially if you have children in the
>: public schools.
> 40% of the liberal teachers/administrators in our country send
>their children to private schools and have been told by the NEA that their
>children will become part of the 5% top elite in the nation, unsubjected
>to the brainwashing of the other 95% drone/robots.
> See my web page for full text details.
Only 40%? The other 60% want their children to be brainwashed!?
I know I'll be sending my children to private school in order to avoid
their becoming drones/robots. And I had wanted to teach them myself
in first grade up until now.
Thanks for opening my eyes to this scandal!
Mark Boline
Bill Ataras
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>Nik...@ltec.net wrote:
>: Just the fact that this did happen, whether part of the Goals 2000 or
>: not, it should scare you, especially if you have children in the
>: public schools.
> 40% of the liberal teachers/administrators in our country send
>their children to private schools and have been told by the NEA that their
>children will become part of the 5% top elite in the nation, unsubjected
>to the brainwashing of the other 95% drone/robots.
And what percentage of the *conservative* teachers/administartors in
our country send their children to private schools ?
John Dulaney
: > 40% of the liberal teachers/administrators in our country send
: >their children to private schools and have been told by the NEA that their
: >children will become part of the 5% top elite in the nation, unsubjected
: >to the brainwashing of the other 95% drone/robots.
: > See my web page for full text details.
: Only 40%? The other 60% want their children to be brainwashed!?
It's a matter of money.
They've also been told that with further action by the union to
get more and more money from the states all teachers will be able to
afford private schools.
However, not all teachers have children, those who do may have
graduated children. These two factors alone represt. a good %.
: I know I'll be sending my children to private school in order to avoid
: their becoming drones/robots. And I had wanted to teach them myself
: in first grade up until now.
: Thanks for opening my eyes to this scandal!
: Mark Boline
You're welcome!
Best,
JOhn
Henry Lustig
On Thu, 09 May 1996 14:28:57 GMT, Lind...@ix.netcom.com (LindaP) wrote:
>patr...@ix.netcom.com(MEL PASTULA ) wrote:
>
>>This may seem to obvious a question to ask, but, WHAT ON EARTH IS THE
>>ENTIRE 6TH GRADE CLASS OF GIRLS DOING STANDING AROUND IN A SCHOOL
>>NURSE'S OFFICE WAITING TO BE "INSPECTED" WHEN THEY SHOULD BE IN CLASS
>>RECEIVING ACADEMIC INSTRUCTION ANYWAY?!!!!!! LET THEIR PARENTS TAKE
>>THEM TO THEIR OWN PEDIATRICIANS FOR THAT SORT OF MEDICAL HELP WHEN THEY
>>GET HOME FROM SCHOOL.!!!!! THAT'S WHAT DOCTOR'S OFFICES ARE FOR, AND
>>SCHOOLING IS WHAT SCHOOLS ARE FOR!!!!!
>
>>Just had to get it off my chest! :)
>
>>Julie Pastula
>
>Well said Julie!!!!
>
>I have been absolutely amazed at the number of posts in these
>newsgroups actually supporting this behavior at a school level.
>Has everyone lost their common sense ???
>
>Social agendas do not belong in school. Doctor visits do not belong
>in school.
>
>And on another note; how many women have been to a gyn for a
>'genital' inspection' before they were sexually active?????
>And what about the male students at that school?? Were their
>underpants removed and their genitals checked???
>
>As for the teachers at that school, wearing ribbons to show support
>for what that doctor did--- they should all be fired.
>
>LindaP
>
>
AMEN!
Henry
Henry G. Lustig--Ophir Computing
(541)-247-4409
hlu...@harborside.com
http://www.harborside.com/home/h/hlustig/
Steven R. Fordyce
cki...@hubcap.mlnet.com (Crawford Kilian) wrote:
|>Steven R. Fordyce,stevenx_...@ccm.jf.intel.com,Internet writes:
|>Traditional education views children as individuals who are valued in their
|>own right. The goal is to develope them as well rounded citizens. The
|>customer is the parents.
|
|That's not my understanding of "traditional" US or Canadian public education
|over the last century. I understand its goals to have been training them to
|adopt national values (especially immigrant children), equipping them with
|the rudiments of literacy and numeracy needed for unskilled or semiskilled
|manufacturing jobs, and identifying those (usually middle class) students
|showing enough academic skill to qualify them for entry into management or
|the professions. "Well-rounded" education was the privilege of those who
|could afford to indulge in a liberal-arts college education...a very small
|fraction of the total student population.
|
|The customer was the economy, not the parents. A recurrent theme in
|literature dealing with the immigrant experience in North America is the
|immigrant parents' unquestioning support of the teacher, however bizarre or
|inexplicable that teacher's demands might be. (This is now a recurrent theme
|in teacher nostalgia.)
|
|In the case of education of Native children, the parents didn't even enter
|into the picture; the children were removed from their home to residential
|schools, forbidden to use their own language, physically and sexually abused,
|indoctrinated with a religion that made little sense, and returned to their
|reservations "assimilated" into a white society that still had no use for
|them. Similar education was the fate of illegitimate or "wayward" children in
|Canada until very recently.
|
|For some reason John Dulaney has not found such fully documented treatment
|worthy of the hyperventilation he has bestowed on the children in
|Pennsylvania...perhaps because it had nothing to do with his political
|hallucinations.
When I speak of traditional education, I mean something that goes back some
3000 years to the ancient Greeks. While there have been elememts of what you
describe in U.S. education going back to the first public schools in MA in
the 1820's, it has never completely dominated. Rather it has spred slowly,
and often the two ideas have co-existed in the same school. I won't presume
to speak for John (although I'd bet he'd agree), but no one I've heard argue
against OBE or Goals 2000 has said it is something new. On the contrary, it
it is the culmination of ideas that go back to 1800th century France.
As to parents being the customer, or parental control of the schools, I cannot
speak for the whole country (and certainly not Canada), but in my own state of
Oregon, up as late as the late 1930's there was over 2,000 school districts in
this state. The average size of a district was 50 students. Each of these
districts was run by an elected school board, which had complete control
(subject to popular vote) of the budget, hired teachers, had great control
over the curriculum, etc. As a practical matter, individual parents didn't
necessarily get their way, they did have a lot of input into how the school
was run. They were the customer. I understand this to have been fairly
typical of Western and Midwestern states.
Even now, this has not completely gone away. Currently there are just less
than 300 districts in Oregon, although under current law it will be down to
about 170 in the next year. One of the districts that will be forced to
consolidate is the district I live in, Pratum, where I when to school, my
daughter is currently in school, and I was and my dad still is a school board
member. There are currently 65 students K-8 and a waiting list of out of
district kids that want to get in. We cost less per student than the larger
districts (and our administrative costs are 1/6th the state average), and
yet our results are better. We are not being consolidated as a direct
result of OBE or Goals 2000, but I believe it was done largely because small
districts like ours stand in the way of changes like this.
The education estabishment say they want parental involvement, but in fact
they do not. If you really want parents to be involved in education, you
must give them some say in it, and that is being systematically taken away.
In the end it boils down to how you want your own children educated: to be
tools of industry and/or the state? Or to be well rounded individuals?
Well? U.S. education is headed in the wrong direction if you want your
to be more than a cog in the machine.
--
ste...@hevanet.com
Bill Ataras
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>Mark Boline (frst...@southwind.net) wrote:
>: jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>: > 40% of the liberal teachers/administrators in our country send
>: >their children to private schools and have been told by the NEA that their
>: >children will become part of the 5% top elite in the nation, unsubjected
>: >to the brainwashing of the other 95% drone/robots.
>: > See my web page for full text details.
>: Only 40%? The other 60% want their children to be brainwashed!?
> It's a matter of money.
> They've also been told that with further action by the union to
>get more and more money from the states all teachers will be able to
>afford private schools.
> However, not all teachers have children, those who do may have
>graduated children. These two factors alone represt. a good %.
HOW good a % ? Since you seem to know, tell us wxactly what percent of
teachers don't have kids and what percent have graduated kids.
John Dulaney
Bill Ataras (b...@teleport.com) wrote:
: > 40% of the liberal teachers/administrators in our country send
: >their children to private schools and have been told by the NEA that their
: >children will become part of the 5% top elite in the nation, unsubjected
: >to the brainwashing of the other 95% drone/robots.
: And what percentage of the *conservative* teachers/administartors in
: our country send their children to private schools ?
The older teachers who still try and teach children are being
fired, layed-off, retired early etc. in orde that the younger brainwashed
teachers can fully control the situation.
Of those conservative who send their chidlren to private schools
I've never read a stat on.
john
~~~~~~~~~~
John Dulaney
: > However, not all teachers have children, those who do may have
: >graduated children. These two factors alone represt. a good %.
: HOW good a % ? Since you seem to know, tell us wxactly what percent of
: teachers don't have kids and what percent have graduated kids.
Don't know, yet!
John
John Dulaney
Roger Post (roge...@delphi.com) wrote:
: Thanks John
: I had been in the dark about where this had taken place also. I still wonder
: why the tabloid press have not picked this up.
: Roger
The tabloids are never allowed to get into politics.
Think of it: ever seen a political side taken?
John
Melissa N. Matusevich
Hmmm. Wasn't it the National Enquirer who brought down Gary
Hart? Or is my memory clouded?
---
Melissa N. Matusevich http://pixel.cs.vt.edu/melissa/melissa.html
mel...@bev.net mmat...@pen.k12.va.us
*****************************************************************************
"We don't describe the world we see; we see the world we can describe." Senge
Bill Ataras
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>Roger Post (roge...@delphi.com) wrote:
>: Thanks John
>: I had been in the dark about where this had taken place also. I still wonder
>: why the tabloid press have not picked this up.
>: Roger
> The tabloids are never allowed to get into politics.
What is your source for this claim. Give us some facts rather than
what you have unilaterally decided in your limited view is making the
world go round.
Bill Ataras
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>Bill Ataras (b...@teleport.com) wrote:
>: > 40% of the liberal teachers/administrators in our country send
>: >their children to private schools and have been told by the NEA that their
>: >children will become part of the 5% top elite in the nation, unsubjected
>: >to the brainwashing of the other 95% drone/robots.
>: And what percentage of the *conservative* teachers/administartors in
>: our country send their children to private schools ?
> The older teachers who still try and teach children are being
>fired, layed-off, retired early etc.
Back that up with a source. Or is it yet more clueless ranting which
you really have no idea about the facts.
> in orde that the younger brainwashed
>teachers can fully control the situation.
> Of those conservative who send their chidlren to private schools
>I've never read a stat on.
And praytell, where did you get your 40% of liberal teachers send
their kids to private school when you don't have a clue as to how many
are actaully liberal or conservative to begin with.
Bill Ataras
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>Bill Ataras (b...@teleport.com) wrote:
>: jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>: >afford private schools.
>: > However, not all teachers have children, those who do may have
>: >graduated children. These two factors alone represt. a good %.
>: HOW good a % ? Since you seem to know, tell us wxactly what percent of
>: teachers don't have kids and what percent have graduated kids.
> Don't know, yet!
> John
So basically, you're spouting rhetoric about stuff you don't have the
facts on, eh. Saying a "good %" of teachers don't have children or
have children who've graduated. When in reality you don't have a clue
about teachers' demographics.
John Dulaney
RE: older teachers fired and replaced by PC brainwashed teachers.
: Back that up with a source. Or is it yet more clueless ranting which
: you really have no idea about the facts.
This is a well known practice, been going on for years.
You'll never hear about it as you are stricktly controlled.
I get the Communist controlled media AND the truth in the NET and
talk radio.
: > in orde that the younger brainwashed
: >teachers can fully control the situation.
: > Of those conservative who send their chidlren to private schools
: >I've never read a stat on.
: And praytell, where did you get your 40% of liberal teachers send
: their kids to private school when you don't have a clue as to how many
: are actaully liberal or conservative to begin with.
I said 40% of teachers send their kids to private schools.
It's a well known fact often repeated in even the Communist media.
Start reading.
This stuff is common knowledge.
John
John Dulaney
Melissa N. Matusevich (mmat...@pen.k12.va.us) wrote:
: John Dulaney (jdul...@nntp.best.com ) writes:
: > Roger Post (roge...@delphi.com) wrote:
: > : Thanks John
: >
: > : I had been in the dark about where this had taken place also. I still wonder
: > : why the tabloid press have not picked this up.
: > : Roger
: >
: > The tabloids are never allowed to get into politics.
: > John
: Hmmm. Wasn't it the National Enquirer who brought down Gary
: Hart? Or is my memory clouded?
They made no political statement. That was their usual venue =
sex.
To report on the failure and Gestapo tactics of GOALS 2000 they
would take up only if the public would be positive towards it.
Anything that could divide their readers they don't do.
John
John Dulaney
: >Roger Post (roge...@delphi.com) wrote:
: >: Thanks John
: >: I had been in the dark about where this had taken place also. I still wonder
: >: why the tabloid press have not picked this up.
: >: Roger
: > The tabloids are never allowed to get into politics.
: What is your source for this claim. Give us some facts rather than
: what you have unilaterally decided in your limited view is making the
: world go round.
Since they don't get into it and since the controlled media never
exposes the facts/witnesses backing up direct connections with dozens of
murders to the Clintons, the fact that they are known members of Communist
front groups, that they are liars, corrupt etc. etc. etc. we have the
usual situation.
You need but open your eyes and admit there is a terrible truth in
our country.
John
Barry Skaggs-djv26
jba...@microserve.net (JB) write:
> patr...@ix.netcom.com(MEL PASTULA ) wrote:
> >This may seem to obvious a question to ask, but, WHAT ON EARTH IS THE
> >ENTIRE 6TH GRADE CLASS OF GIRLS DOING STANDING AROUND IN A SCHOOL
> >NURSE'S OFFICE WAITING TO BE "INSPECTED" WHEN THEY SHOULD BE IN CLASS
> >RECEIVING ACADEMIC INSTRUCTION ANYWAY?!!!!!! LET THEIR PARENTS TAKE
> >THEM TO THEIR OWN PEDIATRICIANS FOR THAT SORT OF MEDICAL HELP WHEN THEY
> >GET HOME FROM SCHOOL.!!!!! THAT'S WHAT DOCTOR'S OFFICES ARE FOR, AND
> >SCHOOLING IS WHAT SCHOOLS ARE FOR!!!!!
> I believe that for many of the US's children, they aren't able to
> go to the doctors for a variety of reasons...such as poverty. I think
> the same thought went into this as went into the school lunch program
> - people had found out the children weren't getting adequate nutrition
> and some for some, in poverty, this was the only good meal they were
> getting.
I believe this is incorrect. It is my understanding that the school lunch
program was not out of compassion to feed the poor, but was in repsonse to a
post WWII study that indicated the entire young male population needed
additional beefing up in preparation for future combat. A study was issued
to Harry Truman, that the young male population as a whole was not
fit as desired in case war again broke out. In response to this study,
the government started the school lunch program.
Regards,
Barry Skaggs
> I agree that this incident is horrible, but let's not make the
> mistake of making the exception the rule. This is not typical of what
> happens in most schools. And if we wanted to go tid for tat I bet
> there are cases in which a school physical or a school's nurse
> actually helped a student. You don't hear about those cases because
> no one reports them, most reports only focus on the negative.
Steven R. Fordyce
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
|Steven R. Fordyce (stevenx_...@ccm.jf.intel.com) wrote:
|: | The Communist controlled mass media doesn't ever report that which
|: |hurts it's agenda, that which it, itself is agressively promoting.
|
|: Statements like that hurt your credibility far more than the media's,
|:because it isn't true.
|
| In your opinion, my friend.
| Sadly, your opinion is tragically wrong.
| Read my web page for insight and knowledge.
Your web page doesn't have anything that shows that the media is communist
controlled. Sorry, but extaordinary claims need extraordinary evidence,
and you don't have it.
|: Our media, or more specifically the press, isn't
|:communist controlled. It is dominated by leftists (or at least
|:Democrats) and their bias shows up in their reporting, and just as
|:important, what they choose to report on, but it is also false to say
|:they *never* report things that hurt their causes.
|
| They only report them when they MUST to maintain the fraction of
|credibility they still have.
That is a meaningless statement other than it is an admission that you
exaggerated in the first place, as it is not falsifiable.
|: | I have 3 kids (2 boys 1 2 year old daughter).
|: | It is GOALS 2000 "goal" (now nearly complete in many states) that
|: |ALL students will be covered by it's public school laws.
|: | It's the end of private and homeschooling.
|: | Of course...we have property in Italy.
|: | Time to pack.
|
|: Italy is an odd place to go if you are looking for more freedom.
|
| Hardly. Having live there for years, and across Europe, it's far
|easier to escape fascism there than here.
The U.S. is far freer than any of Europe.
| Here the efficiency and sophistication is complete.
What?
|Moreover, the : philosophy behind Goals 2000 is being pushed world wide by
|the UN.
|
| True. But FIRST the battle is for America.
Nonesense. Most of what you are complaining about, including OBE, has a
bigger hold in Europe than here, and in fact came from Europe in the first
place (in large part anyway).
| Falls America, falls the world.
| In the mean time our children can be free!
| I just sold our camper in Italy but will buy another and travel
|non-stop as needed.
Bon Voyage.
|: | No Nazi Communist Federal mandated stranger shall touch my
|: |daughter!
|
|: "Nazi Communist"? Even people like me who consider Nazism a creature of
|:the left would find that laughable because the Nazis and communists
|:hated each other for their blasphemous differences.
|
| Nazis were Socialists but the worst definitions of both exist
|today in our own Wash. D.C. gover't.
That is so absurd it merits no comment. To say that the U.S. government is
currently worse than the Nazis or socialist governments is asinine or even
sick.
|: BTW, from what I
|:know about Goals 2000, it is more facist or Nazi than communist, but
|
| They act with the historic force of Nazis/fascists but the goal is
|the end of private property. That leaves us with Communism.
|
|:labeling these ideas is not as important as letting people know what
|:they are because most people will recognize them as bad if they are just
|:described in clear language.
|
| It's hard to describe them.
No it isn't. I did it in a couple of sentences.
| It's best to use buzz words to gain interest then load them full
|of facts.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. You have labled yourself as
a fringe nutcase in most people's minds (including mine) with your conspiracy
theory nonsense. You'd do better to stick to the facts rather than carry on
with this international banker conspiracy business.
|: In OBE or Goals 2000 children are seen as resources of society. The
|:schools train this resource for industry. In other words, industry is
|:the customer. The goal is to teach them just what they need to know to
|:be good workers as part of the group.
|
| And: Not complain, to believe their leaders are working for their
|best interests etc.
| The classic and original Prussian system which was brought to the
|USA and installed in the mid 1800s.
Yes, that does seem to be part of it as well.
|: Traditional education views children as individuals who are valued in
|:their own right. The goal is to develope them as well rounded citizens.
|:The customer is the parents.
|
| Agreed.
|
|: You may wonder why I'm picking on you, John, when we share the goal of
|:exposing what is going on in the schools. I believe you hurt our common
|:concerns with your wilder claims.
|
| But what if my wild claims are correct?
What if the sky falls? What if this is all a dream? What if you are
programer's idea of a joke? I see no point to such speculation.
| Here's something:
| ~~~~~~~~~~
|For a Political WEB PAGE
|of some concern: http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
Which is completely inadequate to back up your wilder claims. Sorry,
but you should take your own advice and stick to the facts. If you plan
argue this you should probably take it to another group or email unless it
is related to education. You should also aquaint yourself yourself with
Occam's razor. I think you'll find many of your ideas fail this simple
test.
--
ste...@hevanet.com
Steven R. Fordyce
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
> College graduates can often not even read their own diplomas but
>that is the purpose,
BS. In fact, this is just plain nuts. Name *one* sighted college graduate
not on a sports scholarship who cannot read his diploma. This has been said
with some credibility about high school graduates, but not college. It is
nonsense like this that keeps you from being taken seriously. This and
calling everything a communist conspirancy.
--
ste...@hevanet.com
Bill Ataras
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>RE: older teachers fired and replaced by PC brainwashed teachers.
>: Back that up with a source. Or is it yet more clueless ranting which
>: you really have no idea about the facts.
> This is a well known practice, been going on for years.
> You'll never hear about it as you are stricktly controlled.
> I get the Communist controlled media AND the truth in the NET and
>talk radio.
So who wrote or said what you're claiming here ? When and where ? So
far you haven't offered anything but ranting.
>: > in orde that the younger brainwashed
>: >teachers can fully control the situation.
>: > Of those conservative who send their chidlren to private schools
>: >I've never read a stat on.
>: And praytell, where did you get your 40% of liberal teachers send
>: their kids to private school when you don't have a clue as to how many
>: are actaully liberal or conservative to begin with.
> I said 40% of teachers send their kids to private schools.
Now you're lying to boot. You must really like looking like an idiot.
To quote you just 2 articles back:
"40% of the liberal teachers/administrators in our country send
their children to private schools"
Notice the word liberal modifying teachers/administrators ?
> It's a well known fact often repeated in even the Communist media.
> Start reading.
> This stuff is common knowledge.
If it is so common, then it would be no trouble for yee of vast
research to reach into your files and post a quote or two of this
stuff your say is "often repeated" in the media.
You're fun. This is like shooting ducks in a barrel. Can you *attempt*
to make what you say seem even *remotely* unrefutable ?
El QueSabe
The rate of 40% of teachers apply to teachers who live in big cities. As
the teacher lives in a more rural setting the % falls off. I remember
this being in a Time or Newsweek within the last 6 months or so.
Are the shadows there for me to find, or placed there by my searching
mind?
When I reach and find them gone, was I right or was I wrong?
Michael S. Ryan
> In US and most other schools political brainwashing is and has
>been the norm for 4-5 decades.
Doesn't some form of "political brainwashing" exist in all schools in that most
people think their country the best of all? I suppose, in your world, you will
teach that your system is no good and, thereby, disprove this notion?
> No actually practical teaching is done, in fact strictist orders
>from the Communist controlled NEA (the biggest union in the world) have
>been to make sure children do NOT get any education at all.
Hmmm...I guess they missed telling my teachers, my nephew's teachers, and a
lot of other teachers of people I know. And what about yourself? Self-taught?
> College graduates can often not even read their own diplomas but
>that is the purpose, to make them so ignorant of life that they will never
>be able to determine who is responsible for their plight.
Find me one. Just one.
> The harsh indoctrination in school aims at pagan worship of nature
>as God and years of getting perfect scores for having done no work at all
>and accomplishing nothing produces dangerous teens and adults filled with
>false self-confidence and recent studies show that this type of
>personality is the basis for criminal pathology.
"Recent studies" from where? alt.rush.limbaugh.facts? alt.freemen.truth?
alt.Koresh.God?
> The USA is ranked at the bottom of educational achievement of all
>industrialized nations and it gets worse every year.
Standardized testing. I need say no more.
> Instead of teaching kids to read they are read to from
>liberal/Socialist tracts disguised as literature.
So that's what "Grapes of Wrath" is about. Gee, I think I missed that part.
> Sexual perversions are treated as normal and the degradation of
>the mind and spirit is the simple goal.
Are you related, in some way, to Oliver Stone?
> All this is needed to enfeeble the country for the coming One
>World Communist government.
Oops. I forgot. It's the millenium.
> Is all this a fabrication on my part?
Undoubtedly.
> Of course not and every teacher/administrator and NEA Communist
>Boss in this newsgroup knows it.
Hmmm. I missed this one, too.
> For proof see my WEB PAGE.
Wow. Real, honest-to-God, factual, truth to be sure. If it's on a WEB PAGE
we know it's true.
> John
Read the Constitution, John. They wrote down what they thought and gave it
enough room to grow and enough checks and balances to keep us going even if we
do, occassionally, wander off into unknown areas. They intended for us to
learn and evolve and we seem to be doing just that, even stubbing the toe here
and there, or banging the head into the wall. But, really, it seems to be
working quite well and I don't forsee having to make any radical changes for
quite some time. Turn off that talk-radio and listen to some Mozart or
Beethoven for a while and calm down (although Mo or Beet just might liven you
up, too). Read this newsgroup. Real people in real education trying to work
together. Doesn't sound too bad to me. As for me, I teach them to do math,
and they do it quite well. Stop by the classroom sometime. You'll be really
surprised at how bright and intelligent and, yes, smart these kids are. Go
see it at the source. Better yet, get involved. Be a tutor or mentor. Make
a REAL difference. Help a kid.
Mike
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Michael S. Ryan | Anything is possible when you don't know |
| mr...@the-college.iwctx.edu | what you are doing...Green's Law |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
John Dulaney
: |Steven R. Fordyce (stevenx_...@ccm.jf.intel.com) wrote:
: |: | The Communist controlled mass media doesn't ever report that which
: |: |hurts it's agenda, that which it, itself is agressively promoting.
: Your web page doesn't have anything that shows that the media is communist
: controlled. Sorry, but extaordinary claims need extraordinary evidence,
: and you don't have it.
Ha!
That's not even debatable.
No "proof" needed!
: |: | Time to pack.
: |
: |: Italy is an odd place to go if you are looking for more freedom.
Even now that Communists are returning to power there is more
freedom in any European nation than here today as, for one thing, the
media are Not 100% controlled.
There are many Conservative papers and mags etc.
The USA is the MOST Socialized country on earth by counting the
amount of money produced in taxes and transfered to the non-producers.
: | Here (US) the efficiency and sophistication is complete.
: What?
The capacity for total control is more fully realized here than
any other place on earth.
BTW, no school in Europe has the brainwashing and educational
devastation that GOALS 2000 consists of. 2 of my children have gone to
school in Europe starting in 1969 up to 4 years ago.
: We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. You have labled yourself as
: a fringe nutcase in most people's minds (including mine) with your conspiracy
: theory nonsense. You'd do better to stick to the facts rather than carry on
: with this international banker conspiracy business.
Ignorance on your part does not constitute the non-existance of
reality.
: | But what if my wild claims are correct?
: What if the sky falls? What if this is all a dream? What if you are
: programer's idea of a joke? I see no point to such speculation.
You'll be recalculating daily on this wager.
Stick around.
John
Karl M. Bunday
Steven R. Fordyce wrote:
> As to parents being the customer, or parental control of the schools, I cannot
> speak for the whole country (and certainly not Canada), but in my own state of
> Oregon, up as late as the late 1930's there was over 2,000 school districts in
> this state. The average size of a district was 50 students. Each of these
> districts was run by an elected school board, which had complete control
> (subject to popular vote) of the budget, hired teachers, had great control
> over the curriculum, etc. As a practical matter, individual parents didn't
> necessarily get their way, they did have a lot of input into how the school
> was run. They were the customer. I understand this to have been fairly
> typical of Western and Midwestern states.
What you speak of has been a steady national trend in the United States in all
regions for more than a century. School districts become bigger, so each parent's
influence in each one becomes smaller.
> Even now, this has not completely gone away. Currently there are just less
> than 300 districts in Oregon, although under current law it will be down to
> about 170 in the next year. One of the districts that will be forced to
> consolidate is the district I live in, Pratum, where I when to school, my
> daughter is currently in school, and I was and my dad still is a school board
> member. There are currently 65 students K-8 and a waiting list of out of
> district kids that want to get in. We cost less per student than the larger
> districts (and our administrative costs are 1/6th the state average), and
> yet our results are better. We are not being consolidated as a direct
> result of OBE or Goals 2000, but I believe it was done largely because small
> districts like ours stand in the way of changes like this.
What is the state's ostensible reason for the consolidation?
> The education estabishment say they want parental involvement, but in fact
> they do not. If you really want parents to be involved in education, you
> must give them some say in it, and that is being systematically taken away.
That's why I think "client control" is a much better model than local control. Most
of the things that are done best in the United States are the result of individual
decisions of buyers (even when those buyers receive such subsidies as the mortgage
interest deduction or food stamps). Political decisions tend to result in worse
tradeoffs than the aggregate effect of individual decisions.
> In the end it boils down to how you want your own children educated: to be
> tools of industry and/or the state? Or to be well rounded individuals?
> Well? U.S. education is headed in the wrong direction if you want your
> to be more than a cog in the machine.
Interesting perspective.
--
Karl from Minnesota, Land of 10,000 Homeschoolers
bund...@gold.tc.umn.edu
http://198.83.19.39/School_is_dead/Learn_in_freedom.html
"Anyone who criticizes public schools is accused of 'bashing' education--as if a mere
word were a reply to facts. Another ploy is to demand to know what you have
contributed 'positively' to education. That's an easy question to answer. We
taxpayers have contributed to the highest per pupil expenditures in the world for
some of the crummiest education." -- Thomas Sowell, "Public Schools in Land of Oz," a
syndicated newspaper column (1994)
Crawford Kilian
British Columbia moved from 400+ districts in the 1930s to 75 just after World
War II, and is now about to compact itself into 37...this in a province
larger in area than Oregon, Washington State and California combined, and a
population still under 4 million, half of them living in the extreme
southwest corner.
Constitutionally, education here is a provincial responsibility; the federal
government does partly subsidize post-secondary, but K-12 gets no federal
money except a little for French-immersion startup and a couple of other
programs. Notwithstanding, we might consider "distributed" school districts
that could overlap municipal, provincial, even national boundaries.
Consolidation has been possible only because of improvements in communication
and transportation; it's still a hassle in the north, where we have districts
the size of France and just a few thousand students. But if we used the
Internet and interactive video, we could create districts of no real "size,"
but of considerable unity of purpose and desired outcome.
So if enough parents around North America wanted, say, a Summerhill-style
education system, or a kilts & flannels system with Latin mandatory, they
could have it--regardless of what their physical neighbours wanted. Something
like this is already emerging in places; with some political pushing, we
might formalize it. No doubt it would start as a kind of private-school
system, but it could be equally effective as a public one.
Of course the students would be very different from the ones who flourish in
the present system; but that's a subject for another thread.
Crawford Kilian
cki...@hubcap.mlnet.com
John Dulaney
Michael S. Ryan (mr...@the-college.iwctx.edu) wrote:
: > In US and most other schools political brainwashing is and has
: >been the norm for 4-5 decades.
: Doesn't some form of "political brainwashing" exist in all schools in
that most : people think their country the best of all? I suppose, in
your world, you will : teach that your system is no good and, thereby,
disprove this notion?
Having lived in 36 countries over the past 27 years and having 3
children who have attended foreigh schools the facts, without my
conviction, are clear:
The USA is at the bottom of education in all industrialized
nations.
No, other schools don't teach Nationalization, as a rule.
Patriots naturally believe their own country is best and cultural
difference reinforce that feeling.
: > No actually practical teaching is done, in fact strictist orders
: >from the Communist controlled NEA (the biggest union in the world) have
: >been to make sure children do NOT get any education at all.
: Hmmm...I guess they missed telling my teachers, my nephew's teachers,
and a : lot of other teachers of people I know. And what about yourself?
Self-taught?
You claim not to have ever read or heard of the SAT scores in the
USA?
: > College graduates can often not even read their own diplomas but
: >that is the purpose, to make them so ignorant of life that they will never
: >be able to determine who is responsible for their plight.
: Find me one. Just one.
Walk into any college near you and ask a few students to read a
simple book and report back here.
: > The harsh indoctrination in school aims at pagan worship of nature
: >as God and years of getting perfect scores for having done no work at all
: >and accomplishing nothing produces dangerous teens and adults filled with
: >false self-confidence and recent studies show that this type of
: >personality is the basis for criminal pathology.
: "Recent studies" from where? alt.rush.limbaugh.facts? alt.freemen.truth?
: alt.Koresh.God?
In every major newspaper about a month ago.
You really don't read anything, do you?
: > The USA is ranked at the bottom of educational achievement of all
: >industrialized nations and it gets worse every year.
: Standardized testing. I need say no more.
Any kind of test given the US ranks at the bottom.
: > Instead of teaching kids to read they are read to from
: >liberal/Socialist tracts disguised as literature.
: So that's what "Grapes of Wrath" is about. Gee, I think I missed that part.
You are the problem.
: > Sexual perversions are treated as normal and the degradation of
: >the mind and spirit is the simple goal.
: Are you related, in some way, to Oliver Stone?
Are you related to Stalin or Marx?
: > All this is needed to enfeeble the country for the coming One
: >World Communist government.
: Oops. I forgot. It's the millenium.
For you, a few seconds ago ended your hopes of independant
thought.
: > For proof see my WEB PAGE.
: Wow. Real, honest-to-God, factual, truth to be sure. If it's on a WEB PAGE
: we know it's true.
It's all documented so I know you'll never go there.
My words aren't for the lost souls like you but for those who
still have a grain of hope left in them and can be exposed to truth and
gain from it.
: Read the Constitution, John. They wrote down what they thought and gave it
: enough room to grow and enough checks and balances to keep us going even if we
: do, occassionally, wander off into unknown areas. They intended for us to
: learn and evolve and we seem to be doing just that, even stubbing the toe here
: and there, or banging the head into the wall. But, really, it seems to be
: working quite well and I don't forsee having to make any radical changes for
: quite some time. Turn off that talk-radio and listen to some Mozart or
: Beethoven for a while and calm down (although Mo or Beet just might liven you
: up, too). Read this newsgroup. Real people in real education trying to work
: together. Doesn't sound too bad to me. As for me, I teach them to do math,
: and they do it quite well. Stop by the classroom sometime. You'll be really
: surprised at how bright and intelligent and, yes, smart these kids are. Go
: see it at the source. Better yet, get involved. Be a tutor or mentor. Make
: a REAL difference. Help a kid.
: Mike
Mike,
You could make a difference if you would quit teaching now and
start sweeping floors.
Please:
LEAVE OUR CHILDREN ALONE!
Most of American considers people like you as truly evil.
Get my drift, Mike?
You fight for Communism and death, we fight for life and the
persuit of happiness.
You fool no one.
John
For a Political WEB PAGE
of some concern: http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is
violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
--- Arthur Schopenhauer
glindahl
John Dulaney (jdul...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
: Michael S. Ryan (mr...@the-college.iwctx.edu) wrote:
: : Read the Constitution, John. They wrote down what they thought and gave it
: : enough room to grow and enough checks and balances to keep us going even if we
: : do, occassionally, wander off into unknown areas. They intended for us to
: : learn and evolve and we seem to be doing just that, even stubbing the toe here
: : and there, or banging the head into the wall. But, really, it seems to be
: : working quite well and I don't forsee having to make any radical changes for
: : quite some time. Turn off that talk-radio and listen to some Mozart or
: : Beethoven for a while and calm down (although Mo or Beet just might liven you
: : up, too). Read this newsgroup. Real people in real education trying to work
: : together. Doesn't sound too bad to me. As for me, I teach them to do math,
: : and they do it quite well. Stop by the classroom sometime. You'll be really
: : surprised at how bright and intelligent and, yes, smart these kids are. Go
: : see it at the source. Better yet, get involved. Be a tutor or mentor. Make
: : a REAL difference. Help a kid.
: : Mike
: Mike,
: You could make a difference if you would quit teaching now and
: start sweeping floors.
: Please:
: LEAVE OUR CHILDREN ALONE!
: Most of American considers people like you as truly evil.
: Get my drift, Mike?
: You fight for Communism and death, we fight for life and the
: persuit of happiness.
: You fool no one.
John, you're going to have to get used to the fact that you represent the
feelings of no one. There is no "we" in your words. "Most of America"
are not insane, or at least, are not insane in public forums like this.
You're going to have to look for new evils, since the Communist "threat"
has evaporated. How about the ever-popular "devil"? Or wait! I have a
better one -- fluoridation of the water!
[To everyone else: is John Dulaney for real, do you think? It's hard to
believe - scary even - but how about an informal poll? I say yes, he's for
real!]
John Dulaney
glindahl (glin...@panix.com) wrote:
: John Dulaney (jdul...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
: : You fight for Communism and death, we fight for life and the
: : persuit of happiness.
: : You fool no one.
: John, you're going to have to get used to the fact that you represent the
: feelings of no one. There is no "we" in your words. "Most of America"
: are not insane, or at least, are not insane in public forums like this.
You ARE scared!
Nothing to do but rant "He's Insane!"
Well, when the facts aren't on your side, when the laws not on
your side... attack the messenger!
There IS no other Communist ploy, is there?
: You're going to have to look for new evils, since the Communist "threat"
: has evaporated. How about the ever-popular "devil"? Or wait! I have a
: better one -- fluoridation of the water!
Your friends and neighbors probably know of your distaste for our
country.
I do.
: [To everyone else: is John Dulaney for real, do you think? It's hard to
: believe - scary even - but how about an informal poll? I say yes, he's for
: real!]
And....so are YOU!
John
For a Cutting Edge, Hard-Right Political WEB PAGE:
http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is
violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
--- Arthur Schopenhauer
"A thousand years hence, perhaps in less, America may be what Europe is
now.... the noblest work of human wisdom, the grand scene of human glory,
the fair cause of freedom that rose and fell."
--- Thomas Paine
Nancy K
glin...@panix.com (glindahl) wrote:
>John Dulaney (jdul...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
>: Michael S. Ryan (mr...@the-college.iwctx.edu) wrote:
>: : Read the Constitution, John. They wrote down what they thought and gave it
>: : enough room to grow and enough checks and balances to keep us going even if we
>: : do, occassionally, wander off into unknown areas. They intended for us to
>: : learn and evolve and we seem to be doing just that, even stubbing the toe here
>: : and there, or banging the head into the wall. But, really, it seems to be
>: : working quite well and I don't forsee having to make any radical changes for
>: : quite some time. Turn off that talk-radio and listen to some Mozart or
>: : Beethoven for a while and calm down (although Mo or Beet just might liven you
>: : up, too). Read this newsgroup. Real people in real education trying to work
>: : together. Doesn't sound too bad to me. As for me, I teach them to do math,
>: : and they do it quite well. Stop by the classroom sometime. You'll be really
>: : surprised at how bright and intelligent and, yes, smart these kids are. Go
>: : see it at the source. Better yet, get involved. Be a tutor or mentor. Make
>: : a REAL difference. Help a kid.
>: : Mike
>: Mike,
>: You could make a difference if you would quit teaching now and
>: start sweeping floors.
>: Please:
>: LEAVE OUR CHILDREN ALONE!
>: Most of American considers people like you as truly evil.
>: Get my drift, Mike?
>: You fight for Communism and death, we fight for life and the
>: persuit of happiness.
>: You fool no one.
>John, you're going to have to get used to the fact that you represent the
>feelings of no one. There is no "we" in your words. "Most of America"
>are not insane, or at least, are not insane in public forums like this.
>You're going to have to look for new evils, since the Communist "threat"
>has evaporated.
Oh really? It has been covered in the news that they are coming back
to power in Russia, hasn't it?
> How about the ever-popular "devil"? Or wait! I have a
>better one -- fluoridation of the water!
>[To everyone else: is John Dulaney for real, do you think? It's hard to
>believe - scary even - but how about an informal poll? I say yes, he's for
>real!]
Nancy K
-----------
If men use their liberty in such a way as to surrender their liberty,
are they thereafter any the less slaves? If people by a plebiscite
elect a man despot over them, do they remain free because the
despotism was of their own making?
- Herbert Spencer
The New Toryism, 1884
Bill Ataras
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>Steven R. Fordyce (stevenx_...@ccm.jf.intel.com) wrote:
>: jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>: |Steven R. Fordyce (stevenx_...@ccm.jf.intel.com) wrote:
>: |: | The Communist controlled mass media doesn't ever report that which
>: |: |hurts it's agenda, that which it, itself is agressively promoting.
>: Your web page doesn't have anything that shows that the media is communist
>: controlled. Sorry, but extaordinary claims need extraordinary evidence,
>: and you don't have it.
> Ha!
> That's not even debatable.
> No "proof" needed!
To quote Mr. Dulaney:
"I give-bloody-up! Either the scum Communist teachers tell us to shut
up or the public seems indifferent - usually both. Let the world blow
itself to bits! I have a secret haven for my 3 kids, wife and myself."
But, John. In this secret haven of yours how do you propose to keep
trying to sell video realeted equipment and services. Yes, I found
your web page where you try to lead a normal life conducting a video
equipment/service business. The not-so-surprising thing is your Jekel
web page seems to be conspicuously lacking a link to your Hyde web
page (the one you tout in these newsgroups).
Do your potential customers know about your secret little haven or
that in your view if one of them is a teacher, he's probably a
communist. Yet you're supplying them equipment to brainwash our
children. For shame.
All together now, the Dulaney refrain:
Give us a source. Magazine, Month, Article. Put up or shut up.
>: |: | Time to pack.
>: |
>: |: Italy is an odd place to go if you are looking for more freedom.
> Even now that Communists are returning to power there is more
>freedom in any European nation than here today as, for one thing, the
>media are Not 100% controlled.
> There are many Conservative papers and mags etc.
> The USA is the MOST Socialized country on earth by counting the
>amount of money produced in taxes and transfered to the non-producers.
All together now, the Dulaney refrain:
Give us a source. Magazine, Month, Article. Put up or shut up.
------------------
How much dough would a Bob Dole dole if a Bob Dole could dole dough?
Bill Ataras
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>glindahl (glin...@panix.com) wrote:
>: John Dulaney (jdul...@nntp.best.com) wrote:
>: : You fight for Communism and death, we fight for life and the
>: : persuit of happiness.
>: : You fool no one.
>: John, you're going to have to get used to the fact that you represent the
>: feelings of no one. There is no "we" in your words. "Most of America"
>: are not insane, or at least, are not insane in public forums like this.
> You ARE scared!
> Nothing to do but rant "He's Insane!"
> Well, when the facts aren't on your side, when the laws not on
>your side... attack the messenger!
> There IS no other Communist ploy, is there?
>: You're going to have to look for new evils, since the Communist "threat"
>: has evaporated. How about the ever-popular "devil"? Or wait! I have a
>: better one -- fluoridation of the water!
> Your friends and neighbors probably know of your distaste for our
>country.
> I do.
And tell us johny boy, do your customers know about you? Yes, I found
your web page where you try to lead a normal life conducting a video
equipment/service business. The not-so-surprising thing is your Jekel
web page seems to be conspicuously lacking a link to your Hyde web
page (the one you tout in these newsgroups).
Do your potential customers know about your secret little haven or
that in your view if one of them is a teacher, he's probably a
communist. Yet you're supplying them equipment to brainwash our
children. For shame.
------------------
Bill Ataras
jdul...@nntp.best.com (John Dulaney) wrote:
>Michael S. Ryan (mr...@the-college.iwctx.edu) wrote:
>: > In US and most other schools political brainwashing is and has
>: >been the norm for 4-5 decades.
>: Doesn't some form of "political brainwashing" exist in all schools in
>that most : people think their country the best of all? I suppose, in
>your world, you will : teach that your system is no good and, thereby,
>disprove this notion?
> Having lived in 36 countries over the past 27 years and having 3
>children who have attended foreigh schools the facts, without my
>conviction, are clear:
> The USA is at the bottom of education in all industrialized
>nations.
> No, other schools don't teach Nationalization, as a rule.
> Patriots naturally believe their own country is best and cultural
>difference reinforce that feeling.
>: > No actually practical teaching is done, in fact strictist orders
>: >from the Communist controlled NEA (the biggest union in the world) have
>: >been to make sure children do NOT get any education at all.
All together now, the Dulaney refrain:
Give us a source. Magazine, Month, Article. Put up or shut up.
>: Hmmm...I guess they missed telling my teachers, my nephew's teachers,
>and a : lot of other teachers of people I know. And what about yourself?
>Self-taught?
> You claim not to have ever read or heard of the SAT scores in the
>USA?
>: > College graduates can often not even read their own diplomas but
All together now, the Dulaney refrain:
Give us a source. Magazine, Month, Article. Put up or shut up.
>: >that is the purpose, to make them so ignorant of life that they will never
>: >be able to determine who is responsible for their plight.
>: Find me one. Just one.
> Walk into any college near you and ask a few students to read a
>simple book and report back here.
>: > The harsh indoctrination in school aims at pagan worship of nature
>: >as God and years of getting perfect scores for having done no work at all
>: >and accomplishing nothing produces dangerous teens and adults filled with
>: >false self-confidence and recent studies show that this type of
>: >personality is the basis for criminal pathology.
>: "Recent studies" from where? alt.rush.limbaugh.facts? alt.freemen.truth?
>: alt.Koresh.God?
> In every major newspaper about a month ago.
> You really don't read anything, do you?
All together now, the Dulaney refrain:
Give us a source. Magazine, Month, Article. Put up or shut up.
>
>: > The USA is ranked at the bottom of educational achievement of all
>: >industrialized nations and it gets worse every year.
>: Standardized testing. I need say no more.
> Any kind of test given the US ranks at the bottom.
>: > Instead of teaching kids to read they are read to from
>: >liberal/Socialist tracts disguised as literature.
>: So that's what "Grapes of Wrath" is about. Gee, I think I missed that part.
> You are the problem.
>: > Sexual perversions are treated as normal and the degradation of
>: >the mind and spirit is the simple goal.
>: Are you related, in some way, to Oliver Stone?
> Are you related to Stalin or Marx?
>: > All this is needed to enfeeble the country for the coming One
>: >World Communist government.
>: Oops. I forgot. It's the millenium.
> For you, a few seconds ago ended your hopes of independant
>thought.
>: > For proof see my WEB PAGE.
Which one ?
Marc Baime
John Dulaney wrote:
<Evidence of the vast communist conspiracy deleted>
Those of us here at Communist Martyrs High School note with sadness that
Mr. Dulaney has found us out. This is such a drag as we were expecting
to assume major positions of power in the U.S. Gov't come the revolution
i.e. those of us who have not already infiltrated the gov't by way of the
school system. I will have more to say on this issue as soon as I finish
my responsibilities teaching classes in abortion, proper condom usage,
sex education, how not to let prayer infiltrate the school system, and
godless communist ideology 101. Recommended book of the month is 1984.
You'll recall that's the one that explained how governments and people
without external enemies have to face their problems and not try to put
them all on some faceless 'they'. In the meantime we will do our best to
hide the truth from people like Mr. Dulaney who have 'seen the light' and
unmasked the great conspiracy.
Bill Ataras
nan...@bga.com (Nancy K) wrote:
>glin...@panix.com (glindahl) wrote:
>>You're going to have to look for new evils, since the Communist "threat"
>>has evaporated.
> Oh really? It has been covered in the news that they are coming back
> to power in Russia, hasn't it?
Wrong. Its been covered that in recent elections in st petersburg,
communists large BIG TIME. It was a democratic landslide.
Next...
Roger Post
john:
Do you have the Senators answer?
El QueSabe
How about an actual update on the subject issue.
I called the police and the school in question (thanks to whomever posted
the numbers). They were quite pissed. They would not discuss "an
investigation in progress."
Anyone know anything?
Thank you, Miller Smith
Brian Pecora
On Thursday, May 02, 1996, Gloria Faley wrote...
>
> Okay... the information that I have recieved is that all the parents
> were given written slips that the physicals were available.
>
> NO child would be given an physical unless the parent signed the
> slip and it was sent home. Also, the child were given the opportunity
> to have a parent present.
>
> However, the State police direct the investigation of this case to
> the Montgomery County Attorney General's office. The investigation is
> under-way.
>
Our school system will provide physical exams if the parents cannot
afford one and/or the child needs one for school and the parents have been
negligent in getting one. My children have NEVER had a physical exam in
school because we take them to their doctor when they are supposed to go.
The kids' doctor fills out the form and sends it in.
I question the parenting skills of anyone who calls a physical exam
by a Pediatrician "molestation". All of my children get their genitals
checked at their physicals (along with their eyes, ears, etc.) and there
is nothing wrong with it! In the case of my daughter who just turned 13,
the doctor also asks about her menstrual cycle and other personal
questions with the parent out of the room. It is also the time for my
daughter to ask questions that she might be afraid of (or too embarrassed)
to ask her parents.
As far as the boys go, the hernia check is far more invasive than an
external genitalia check. With boys, an undetected hernia can become life
threatening. I've never heard of a parent complaining that the doctor
molested their sons by playing with their scrotums. No boy would be
allowed to play sports without this check -- and for good reason.
Unfortunately, it is a fact of life that some parents hide sexual
abuse of their children by refusing to get their daughters required
physical exams. While this is rare, it happens often enough to raise the
eyebrows of law enforcement when absurd claims such as this are made
against physicians by responsible adult parents.
This exam was probably the required school exam, and a "freebie", paid
for by the Health Department or the school because the parents didn't,
couldn't or wouldn't. The last thing this parent should be doing is
complaining about how Pediatricians do their job. (If it was the gym
teacher, it would be another story).
It is a shame that there are people who have nothing better to do
than make ridiculous accusations of people and a system that is protecting
their children's health because they haven't.
John Dulaney
Brian Pecora (br...@snet.net) wrote:
: Our school system will provide physical exams if the parents cannot
: afford one and/or the child needs one for school and the parents have been
: negligent in getting one.
They will?
Goals 2000 says they will.
Our Constitution says the parents have complete control over all
such exams and over their chidlren's education as well.
Goals 2000 is the One World Totalitarian Government's copy of the
Communist Soviet Union's Polytechnic Vocation school system, likely the
most insidious brainwashing techniques ever used on human beings.
: I question the parenting skills of anyone who calls a physical exam
: by a Pediatrician "molestation".
I question your patriotism, loyalty to your country and powers of
mature thought to red herring this discussion with the lie that anyone
called a "physical exam" "molestation.
The examination of a 12 year old girl's vagina against her will
and without the knowledge of her parents IS Molestation.
Many would recall history and remark as to the similarity of this
and the Concentration Camps in Poland and Germany or the Gulags of Soviet
Russia.
By your standard Communist attempt to cloud the issues you negate
all validity in your post as other than that of an agent of the Communist
controlled NEA.
John
For a Cutting Edge, Hard-Right Political WEB PAGE:
http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
http://www.tncnet.com/~rsears/jbs/resource.html
David L. Hanson
> This exam was probably the required school exam, and a "freebie", paid
>for by the Health Department or the school because the parents didn't,
>couldn't or wouldn't. The last thing this parent should be doing is
>complaining about how Pediatricians do their job. (If it was the gym
>teacher, it would be another story).
Mr. Pecora, have you had your State required physical exam this year, yet?
No. Then the State Health Department is going to come to your house and
give you one. (For your own good because you didn't, couldn't or wouldn't take
a physical exam on your own.)
The State has NO business giving any of its citizens any physical exam whether
the State (or you) thinks that any one needs it. It is part of the lunacy of
this country where parents allow their childrens' minds to be corrupted by
the State so that anyone would believe that the State should inspect the bodies
of the citizens.
When I was in the government schools in the 50's and 60's, there were no State
"required" physical examinations. It is a choice that parents had.
Creeping Statism into our lives MUST be stopped.
David L. Hanson
"Ye MUST be born again"
Melissa N. Matusevich
> Mr. Pecora, have you had your State required physical exam this year, yet?
> No. Then the State Health Department is going to come to your house and
> give you one. (For your own good because you didn't, couldn't or wouldn't take
> a physical exam on your own.)
>
> The State has NO business giving any of its citizens any physical exam whether
> the State (or you) thinks that any one needs it.
> "required" physical examinations. It is a choice that parents had.
Okay, how about the fact that many states have required a
blood test prior to the issuing of a marriage license? Also,
when I was in first grade in 1954, I was a "Polio Pioneer" who
was, along with every other first grader, given polio shots AT
SCHOOL. It was required and no parent was asked for permission.
Since polio was such a massive threat at that time, strong
measures were required. Is it better for a population to be
infected with a disease than to have state-required
intervention? Also, what about required immunizations to go
overseas? And do you disagree with the old, then much-needed
practice, of quarantining houses with infectious diseases?
If I understand you correctly, it is your belief that the
current practice of keeping HIV positive students in public
school anonymously without the teacher knowing is a good one.
You would not mind your child attending school in such a
classroom. Otherwise the state would be interfering, right?
Mr. Hanson, if the ebola virus shows up in your community,
do you believe the government has no responsibility to its
citizens and should not intervene? Where should government
intervention start and stop?
Marta McIntosh
Mr. Hanson, if the ebola virus shows up in your community,
do you believe the government has no responsibility to its
citizens and should not intervene? Where should government
intervention start and stop?
*********************
A physical examination of a patient against that patient's will is assualt.
Any doctor or nurse will tell you that. Whether the patient is right or wrong
in their choice is irrelevent, unless they are putting others at risk. How is
a twelve year old putting anyone at risk by refusing to be examined by a
doctor? Would a doctor be justified in doing the same thing to you, or is it
just OK because the victim was a child?
Melissa N. Matusevich
> A physical examination of a patient against that patient's will is assualt.
Indeed? So, when my twelve year old daughter had a serious
illness and I forced her, against her will, to be examined by the
doctor, the doctor and I conspired to and commited assault???
> Any doctor or nurse will tell you that. Whether the patient is right or wrong
> in their choice is irrelevent, unless they are putting others at risk. How is
> a twelve year old putting anyone at risk by refusing to be examined by a
> doctor?
In my daughter's case she was putting herself at risk.
Would a doctor be justified in doing the same thing to you, or is it
> just OK because the victim was a child?
Of course the doctor is justified, particularly if it is for my
own preservation.
If twelve year old girls were capable of making all their own
decision, parents would be superfluous.
Another angle no one has mentioned is this: Have you ever
witnessed twelve year old girls become hysterical en masse?
If you have, then you could well see how this incident quickly
became show time. Have you ever worked around large groups of
twelve year old girls? I once witnessed an entire busload of
sixth grade girls become hysterical over a situation in which a
young man walked by and pulled off his shirt. These girls
became hysterical en masse as each tried to outdo the other
with the shrieking and crying.
The bottom line is that the parents signed permission forms.
Parents still have the final authority over their children.
RIGHT???
--
Melissa N. Matusevich http://pixel.cs.vt.edu/melissa/melissa.html
mel...@bev.net mmat...@pen.k12.va.us
*****************************************************************************
"We don't describe the world we see; we see the world we can describe." Senge
---
Melissa N. Matusevich http://pixel.cs.vt.edu/melissa/melissa.html
mel...@bev.net mmat...@pen.k12.va.us
*****************************************************************************
"We don't describe the world we see; we see the world we can describe." Senge
Herman Rubin
In article <Ds4nv...@pen.k12.va.us>,
Melissa N. Matusevich <mmat...@pen.k12.va.us> wrote:
>> A physical examination of a patient against that patient's will is assualt.
>Indeed? So, when my twelve year old daughter had a serious
>illness and I forced her, against her will, to be examined by the
>doctor, the doctor and I conspired to and commited assault???
>> Any doctor or nurse will tell you that. Whether the patient is right or wrong
>> in their choice is irrelevent, unless they are putting others at risk. How is
>> a twelve year old putting anyone at risk by refusing to be examined by a
>> doctor?
>In my daughter's case she was putting herself at risk.
You, as a parent, have rights in this matter. If the state ever takes over
these rights, you, as a parent, will have lost them, and you will be required
to raise your children as the state wants.
This has happened elsewhere. In the 30s, when the educationists took over,
they tried to get the parents completely out of the learning loop. With
that kind of power, they could.
Examining your children physically will be only the start. Total control
is the outcome.
--
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hru...@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (317)494-6054 FAX: (317)494-0558
glindahl
Marta McIntosh (Marta_M...@wonder.wimsey.com) wrote:
: Mr. Hanson, if the ebola virus shows up in your community,
: do you believe the government has no responsibility to its
: citizens and should not intervene? Where should government
: intervention start and stop?
: *********************
: A physical examination of a patient against that patient's will is assualt.
: Any doctor or nurse will tell you that. Whether the patient is right or wrong
: in their choice is irrelevent, unless they are putting others at risk. How is
: a twelve year old putting anyone at risk by refusing to be examined by a
: doctor? Would a doctor be justified in doing the same thing to you, or is it
: just OK because the victim was a child?
No one - I mean NO one - outside of the most rabid usenet newgroup
posters - is claiming any kind of assault or abuse in this case. There
was a chance for parents to not participate - in fact, parents who
returned the consent forms were actually REQUESTING the exams. Your
loaded language and automatic assumption of guilt is much more telling
than the school district's activities.
Crawford Kilian
Herman Rubin,hru...@b.stat.purdue.edu,Internet writes:
Examining your children physically will be only the start. Total control
is the outcome.
CK: Even Herman gets sucked into this thread from hell...
No, Herman, total control is not the outcome. Paranoia is the outcome.
You and the other state-haters might ask yourselves, as you cash your
state-issued or state-guaranteed paychecks, why you feel so alienated from
the government created and funded by your fellow-citizens.
Crawford Kilian
Posting from British Columbia on a provincial election day, where the winners
may be a pain in the ass but "total control" remains the privilege of God
alone.
cki...@hubcap.mlnet.com
David L. Hanson
>Examining your children physically will be only the start. Total control
>is the outcome.
The Evil Educationist Empire is a threat larger then the Soviet Union ever
was.
David L. Hanson
pro innocent human life
barb...@fast.net
> mmat...@pen.k12.va.us (Melissa N. Matusevich) writes:
snip
>
> The bottom line is that the parents signed permission forms.
> Parents still have the final authority over their children.
> RIGHT???
>
>
>>>>
that the girls who were examined were those who had _not_
returned private physician forms. Parental consent was assumed
by omission. Parents were supposedly notified that the exams
would be held (although not the content of the exam), but in all
the news reports I have read, there was no indication that they
actually signed anything giving consent for the exam.
But admittedly this may be somewhat beside the point. Even
if you believe that the state has more rights than the parents,
can you honestly believe the state has more rights than
the individual students in this matter.
I do believe this was assault if the girls themselved refused.
No adult would be given a genital exam against their will
(unless they were prisoners), and no child should either.
How much do you want to bet that each one of these girls
sometime during their time in school, went through some
sort of "Safe Kids" program which emphasized that they and
they alone had control over their privates?
Barbara Hoff
barb...@fast.net
glindahl
barb...@fast.net wrote:
: > The bottom line is that the parents signed permission forms.
: > Parents still have the final authority over their children.
: > RIGHT???
: Did they???? I may be incorrect here, but it is my understanding
: that the girls who were examined were those who had _not_
: returned private physician forms. Parental consent was assumed
: by omission. Parents were supposedly notified that the exams
: would be held (although not the content of the exam), but in all
: the news reports I have read, there was no indication that they
: actually signed anything giving consent for the exam.
: But admittedly this may be somewhat beside the point. Even
: if you believe that the state has more rights than the parents,
: can you honestly believe the state has more rights than
: the individual students in this matter.
: I do believe this was assault if the girls themselved refused.
: No adult would be given a genital exam against their will
: (unless they were prisoners), and no child should either.
You are incorrect here, and your belief that "this was an assault" seems
to have clouded your ability to absorb information. The girls examined
were those whose parents returned signed forms REQUESTING the exam!
Nobody has to believe anything about the state's rights versus the
parents' rights. The parents requested this service from the state.
: How much do you want to bet that each one of these girls
: sometime during their time in school, went through some
: sort of "Safe Kids" program which emphasized that they and
: they alone had control over their privates?
I wouldn't bet anything on your ideology-laden hunch. Why make another
conjecture out of the blue? You and your fellow crazed ideologues are
throwing around so much loaded language, so many rumors, so much paranoid
ranting, that adding yet another non-fact to the mix will only further
impede any reasonable attempt at resolving the differences uncovered in
Stroudsberg.
Rick Adams
glindahl (glin...@panix.com) wrote:
: The girls examined were those whose parents returned signed forms
: REQUESTING the exam!.... The parents requested this service from the
: state.
The school district sent out notices saying that the physical was required,
and that the only option open to the parent was to provide proof that the
student had been given a physical by a private physician. Additionally,
the parent(s) could be present for the school physical. This was not a
"check here if you request a physical" sort of form.
"Superintendent Rachael Heath said parents were notified by mail and had
the option of taking their children to their family physician if they
didn't want the school doctor to do the examination.... But many parents
said they never received notification of the exam and would have gone to
a family doctor if they had known what the school physical entailed."
-- "Parents angry over physicals," Allentown Morning Call, March 26 1996.
"The school district notified parents of the exams, but said nothing about
genital exams because it did not know the doctor would be giving them....
The biggest problem, according to some parents, was not that genital exams
were conducted, but that they were not notified the exams were going to be
part of the physical. The genital exams were also a surprise to school
officials, who said they did not know [the doctor] planned to do them.""
-- "Doctors Support Pediatrician's Student Exam," Allentown Morning Call,
March 31, 1996.
"...A parent and a guardian of two of the girls complained that the girls were
examined though they had filed records of previous physicals that should have
exempted them."
-- "Doctor Quits Over Exam Flap," The New Orleans Times-Picayune, May 19,
1996.
While I am not among those who believe that the doctor involved in this
was a pedophile or rapist, or that this incident is due to the first wave
of shock troops from Goals 2000 or Hillary Clinton, I do think that a careful
reading of the press accounts shows that this thing was badly mishandled,
and that the parents involved were not provided with an opportunity to
give informed consent to the physicals.
You may read a collection of source materials on this incident at:
http://www.winternet.com/~radams/exams/
--
Rick Adams rad...@winternet.com http://www.winternet.com/~radams/