Books/Tapes on Received Pronunciation
C. Duff
I am seeking to purchase books and/or tapes on Received Pronunciation in
particular and British English in general.
If anyone knows of a bookstore or a mail-order source from which I can make
my purchases, please share the information. Recommendations of specific
titles and authors are most welcome.
jcd
Houston, Texas, USA
Feb 24, 1994
Tim Kirby
: I am seeking to purchase books and/or tapes on Received Pronunciation in
: particular and British English in general.
: If anyone knows of a bookstore or a mail-order source from which I can make
: my purchases, please share the information. Recommendations of specific
: titles and authors are most welcome.
For what it's worth, the BBC used to have at least one audio cassette entitled
'English with a Dialect (and Irish, Scottish and Welsh Accents)'
The number is (was) ZCM 173, though I will add that it is (C) 1979.
I have no idea where you would find it in your part of the world, of course,
but knowing something exists is half the battle...
Tim
--
Tim Kirby --------- Cray Research Inc., Eagan, MN, USA ---------- t...@cray.com
Disclaimer: Cray didn't say this... I did...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If all else fails, Immortality may always be assured by spectacular error(JKG)
Jack Campin
> I am seeking to purchase books and/or tapes on Received Pronunciation in
> particular and British English in general.
> If anyone knows of a bookstore or a mail-order source from which I can make
> my purchases, please share the information. Recommendations of specific
> titles and authors are most welcome.
I've never heard of a text on this; the only people who set out to learn RP
as a systematic enterprise are drama students (it is impossible for a
Scottish or working-class English actor to get work in London without being
able to fake it). Drama colleges here have required courses in it; maybe
the drama school near you does the same as an option? If not, write to the
Department of Drama, Queen Margaret College, Edinburgh and ask for a copy of
the list of materials they use for it.
--
-- Jack Campin -- Room 1.36, Department of Computing & Electrical Engineering,
Mountbatten Building, Heriot-Watt University, Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS
TEL: 031 449 5111 ext 4195 HOME: 031 556 5272 FAX: 031 451 3431
INTERNET: ja...@cee.hw.ac.uk BITNET: via UKACRL BANG!net: via mcsun & uknet
Anthea F Gupta
: cd...@sugar.NeoSoft.COM (C. Duff) wrote:
: > I am seeking to purchase books and/or tapes on Received Pronunciation in
: > particular and British English in general.
It would be helpful to know why you want this.
: > If anyone knows of a bookstore or a mail-order source from which I can make
: > my purchases, please share the information. Recommendations of specific
: > titles and authors are most welcome.
: I've never heard of a text on this; the only people who set out to learn RP
: as a systematic enterprise are drama students ....
There are lots of texts and tapes & if you try the British Council, or
write to a bookshop with educational books in UK (e.g. Dillons, Malet
Street, London WC1); Heffers, 20 Trinity Street, Cambridge, CB2 3NG,
England) you'll be able to get full up to date lists. Unfortunately,
it's not only drama students who get RP foisted on them: it's still the
reference point where British English is taught as a foreign language. I
hope C Duff isn't going to tell students that everyone in Britain speaks
RP if they're educated -- it's a minority accent, English (as opposed to
British) and class linked.
Books: J C Wells. 1982. (there may be a new edition out). ACCENTS OF
ENGLISH. CUP: Cambridge. [in 3 volumes. Volume 2 is The British Isles].
Gimson, A C. [new editions come out regularly -- mine is 1980] An
Introduction to the Pronunciation of English. Arnold: London. [Standard
Textbook. An appendix discusses the status of RP. There's a tape too I
think]
Hughes, Arthur & Peter Trudgill. 1979. [new edition maybe???]. English
Accents and Dialects. Arnold: London. [Slim book, accompanying tape is
essential]
Hope this is some use. WHY DO YOU WANT IT??????
PS You could also look at the Introduction to J C Wells's LONGMAN
PRONUNCIATION DICTIONARY. Longman: London. 1990.
Anthea (speaker on North of England English, by the way. Definitely NOT
promoting RP)
--
_________________________________________________________________________
Anthea Fraser GUPTA
English Language & Literature
National University of Singapore
Kent Ridge e-mail: ellg...@leonis.nus.sg
Singapore 0511 telephone: (65) 772 3933
________________________________________________________________________
Sleepless in Sunny Bradford
: I've never heard of a text on this; the only people who set out to learn RP
: as a systematic enterprise are drama students (it is impossible for a
: Scottish or working-class English actor to get work in London without being
: able to fake it).
Which is why the're actors, they can't get work.
--
Chris Russell Hear all, See all, Say Nowt,
Electronic Imaging Eat all, Drink all, Pay Nowt,
and Media Communications And if evva tha' does owt fer nowt,
University of Bradford Allus do it fer thisen.
Milli Vanilli
television reporter. I have a set of two RP pronunciation cassettes accompanying the book "Better English Pronunciation". It may not be worth it for you to purchase the cassettes because it is virtually a day light robbery. I may be able to dub them for you if you like. But the book you better get yourself. It's
by Cambridge Books. By the way, being a Yankee, why are you so interested in emulating a British accent? Get back to me for further information.
Yours affectionately
Felix Lo
ba...@garnet.berkeley.edu
me in?
Thanks,
Greg
---
Greg Sandell (ba...@garnet.berkeley.edu)
(I live in Brighton, England, but I post from Berkeley because
soc.culture.british is not included in U.Sussex's newsfeed!)
--
Ted Schuerzinger
ba...@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
> I missed the definition of " Received Pronunciation". Can someone clue
> me in?
RP is, I believe, the pronunciation of upper-class SE Englanders,
particularly the "public school" type.
I'm not certain if it's a part of RP specifically or just British English
in general, but something I hate about British/RP is the elision of the r
in words that end in -er/-re/-or/-our, and the inclusion of an r in words
ending with a schwa. For a *really* annoying example of this, listen to
the Elton John song "Nikita" (or should I say "Nikiter"?)
--Ted Schuerzinger
Finance Director, Dartmouth Broadcasting
Fe...@Dartmouth.EDU
Warning: The Surgeon General has determined that thinking I'm an official
spokesman of either Dartmouth College or Dartmouth College Bowl may be
hazardous to your health.
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: I'm not certain if it's a part of RP specifically or just British English
: in general, but something I hate about British/RP is the elision of the r
: in words that end in -er/-re/-or/-our, and the inclusion of an r in words
: ending with a schwa. For a *really* annoying example of this, listen to
: the Elton John song "Nikita" (or should I say "Nikiter"?)
One man's meat, another man's poison. You'll tear your
hair off when I say `China rand India'. The idea rov it!
However, there are quite a few Americans that lack the
so-called post-vocalic [r], notably some New England and
southern ones, and certain kinds of black American English.
And of course Australian and NZ English.
Peter Tan (Peeta Tan)
Singapore (Singapaw)
Ben Armato
>: I'm not certain if it's a part of RP specifically or just British English
>: in general, but something I hate about British/RP is the elision of the r
>: in words that end in -er/-re/-or/-our, and the inclusion of an r in words
>: ending with a schwa. For a *really* annoying example of this, listen to
>: the Elton John song "Nikita" (or should I say "Nikiter"?)
I thought that what is really happening here is the existence of a sound that
is midway between schwa and -r. Thus, people who anticipate or expect to
hear the -r, percieve it as schwa; people who expect the schwa, percieve it
as -r.
-Dave
,----------------------------------------------------------------------------.
| / |
| Dave Munroe / Hewlett-Packard |
| dmu...@vcd.hp.com / Vancouver, Washington |
| / |
`----------------------------------------------------------------------------'
CARLTECH
: -Dave
Yes. It's called a "schwar." It is made by raising the tongue higher
than in the "schwa." It exists in some dialects of English.
-Barbara@Carltech
Steve Hayes
>RP is, I believe, the pronunciation of upper-class SE Englanders,
>particularly the "public school" type.
>
>I'm not certain if it's a part of RP specifically or just British English
>in general, but something I hate about British/RP is the elision of the r
>in words that end in -er/-re/-or/-our, and the inclusion of an r in words
>ending with a schwa. For a *really* annoying example of this, listen to
>the Elton John song "Nikita" (or should I say "Nikiter"?)
I don't know if that is RP, but I know what you mean.
Many British people say "law" as if it were written "lore".
On the other hand, many Americans pronounce it as "lah"
And we South Africans "Pork the cor in the porking lot."
============================================================
Steve Hayes, Editorial Department, University of South Africa
P.O. Box 392, Pretoria, 0001 South Africa
Internet: haye...@risc1.unisa.ac.za Fidonet: 5:7106/20.1
steve...@p1.f20.n7106.z5.fidonet.org
Douglas Raith
>: I'm not certain if it's a part of RP specifically or just British English
>: in general, but something I hate about British/RP is the elision of the r
>: in words that end in -er/-re/-or/-our, and the inclusion of an r in words
>: ending with a schwa. For a *really* annoying example of this, listen to
>: the Elton John song "Nikita" (or should I say "Nikiter"?)
It's not British English in general, as you won't find it in Scotland.
(I think there's a general mistaken impression in the States that RP
is a universal British accent: There ain't no such beast, except that
RP has, until very recently, been a prerequisite of getting on in the
London-centred establishment. You've heard of the Class System...)
It's not even universal of *English* English, as they pronounce their
'r's in Cornwall, Devon, Bristol, etc (That's the south-west, for
those who don't know); and in some parts of Lancashire & Yorkshire in
the north, though I believe it's dying out there. The elision of any
'r' which doesn't precede a vowel IS a feature of RP, and most other
English dialects. It's also seen in Australia, New Zealand, South
Africa, and the ex-British Empire. I heard once that it wasn't a
feature in Shakespeare's time. However, it was a feature of the
speech of the colonists who settled New England and the southern
states of the US, and that's why it's still seen there.
A commonly-heard name on the BBC news is Laura Nawda. Even RP
speakers sometimes object to the use of this name (instead of the more
correct phrase 'Law and Order') - but they're forgetting that it's an
inevitable result of their degenerate speech form. ;-)
The 'r' isn't totally ignored, as it modifies the preceding vowel to
one of only a few. For example, the words 'paw', 'pour', and 'poor'
all sound the same, as do 'kerb' and 'curb'. But then, I suppose the
last two sound the same from most Americans, too. Let's face it, the only
people who can speak properly are the Scots... Pity no-one can
understand us.
Cheers,
Doug.
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)
: It's not even universal of *English* English, as they pronounce their
: 'r's in Cornwall, Devon, Bristol, etc (That's the south-west, for
: those who don't know); and in some parts of Lancashire & Yorkshire in
: the north, though I believe it's dying out there. The elision of any
: 'r' which doesn't precede a vowel IS a feature of RP, and most other
: English dialects. It's also seen in Australia, New Zealand, South
: Africa, and the ex-British Empire. I heard once that it wasn't a
: feature in Shakespeare's time. However, it was a feature of the
: speech of the colonists who settled New England and the southern
: states of the US, and that's why it's still seen there.
Just a quick addendum for those that aren't in the know, Cornwall and
Devon are the two most south-west counties in England and Bristol is a
city. Bristol (I believe) now resides in its own "county" but is probably
the biggest city in the general area of the SW (excusing Plymouth and Exeter
which are both in Devon).
I do agree with the pronounciation comments though. All three areas have very
different accents, but the "r" sound is well pronounced in each.
Ooh arrr, moi luvverr - a classic Cornish chat up line(?)
Cheers, Kev
Alan T Potter
Ted Schuerzinger (fe...@Dartmouth.EDU) wrote:
>: I'm not certain if it's a part of RP specifically or just British English
>: in general, but something I hate about British/RP is the elision of the r
>: in words that end in -er/-re/-or/-our, and the inclusion of an r in words
>: ending with a schwa. For a *really* annoying example of this, listen to
>: the Elton John song "Nikita" (or should I say "Nikiter"?)
I missed out on the beginning of this thread (soc.culture.british grows too
quickly to follow it all!) but find this discussion interesting.
I should like to say, however, that in singing -- especially classical
singing -- the conventional rules of spoken dialogue are thrown out the
window.
The basic rule for a classical singer is to keep the throat and mouth open.
If you're singing in a large hall without amplification, you need to make
lots of noise, and you don't do that with your mouth or throat closed. So
you sing on the vowels, and use the consonants to punctuate the vowel
sounds.
An r after a vowel is almost invariably elided. To hear why, listen to
country and westrn singers:
C&W singer: singerrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Classical: singa....
All vowel sounds are 'diddled' with. The vowels are moved towards an "ah"
sound, as that is the most open of sounds. "Uh" sounds become "ah", "ay"
sounds become "eh-ee" (the dipthong is made more obvious) and so on.
At least, that's the way I'm taught. Other teachers may have different
opinions!
regards,
/Alan
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Alan....@edo.mts.dec.com | My opinions are mine, not DEC's 0506 423307 |
| NTS: GM7GLJ@GB7EDN.#77.GBR.EU | VMS Engineering, Livingston, UK EH54 6AG |
+------------- The bridge is crossed, so stand and watch it burn -------------+
Mike Forslof
> Yours affectionately
> Felix Lo
There was an amusing column in *The Economist* recently about a BBC
announcer whose pronunciation was not yet up to standard. He described a
prisoner escaping from a jail cell by "...soaring through the bars." An
interesting scene, a prisoner floating up and out to freedom. Actually,
the copy had read "...sawing through the bars."
I think the column was by Lexington but I'm not certain.
Mike Forslof
cybe...@hebron.connected.com
Ted Schuerzinger
do...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Douglas Raith) writes:
> The 'r' isn't totally ignored, as it modifies the preceding vowel to
> one of only a few. For example, the words 'paw', 'pour', and 'poor'
> all sound the same, as do 'kerb' and 'curb'. But then, I suppose the
> last two sound the same from most Americans, too.
Yes, "kerb" and "curb" sound the same to me, although they do have that r
in them. However, I was under the impression (according to my
foreign-language dictionaries, in the the pronunciations for English words
are taken from Daniel Jones' dictionary of RP) that "poor", at least (I'm
not certain of "pour" without looking it up) has an "ooh" sound, not an
"aw" sound as in "paw". I've always found that "ooh" pronunciation to
sound incredibly annoying.... However, pour and poor sound the same to
this American's ears -- both rhyme with bore.
Do the words "poor" and "newer" rhyme for speakers of RP?
--Ted Schuerzinger
Finance Director, Dartmouth Broadcasting
Fe...@Dartmouth.EDU
Dartmouth College Bowl -- 1994 Region 1 Champions!
Daniel P. B. Smith
>I missed out on the beginning of this thread (soc.culture.british grows too
>quickly to follow it all!) but find this discussion interesting.
>
>I should like to say, however, that in singing -- especially classical
>singing -- the conventional rules of spoken dialogue are thrown out the
>window.
>
>The basic rule for a classical singer is to keep the throat and mouth open.
>If you're singing in a large hall without amplification, you need to make
>lots of noise, and you don't do that with your mouth or throat closed. So
>you sing on the vowels, and use the consonants to punctuate the vowel
>sounds.
>
>All vowel sounds are 'diddled' with. The vowels are moved towards an "ah"
>sound, as that is the most open of sounds. "Uh" sounds become "ah", "ay"
>sounds become "eh-ee" (the dipthong is made more obvious) and so on.
According to my brother, because of the influence of Italian opera,
there was also a tradition of teaching English singers, singing in English,
to use the Italian vowel sounds. It wasn't explained that way--it was
explained as "this is how you sing this vowel"--but that's in part what
it was.
--
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbs...@world.std.com
Martin Ackroyd
: Do the words "poor" and "newer" rhyme for speakers of RP?
No, they are quite distinct.
Martin Ackroydx
Chris Russell
<stuff I agree with chopped for no reason other than me being mean>
: The 'r' isn't totally ignored, as it modifies the preceding vowel to
: one of only a few. For example, the words 'paw', 'pour', and 'poor'
: all sound the same, as do 'kerb' and 'curb'.
<stuff I disagree with chopped for the same reason>
Not every body pronounces those words the same. I often, but I have to
say not always, pronounce words with a 'oo' in it as a word with a 'oo'in
it. In other words I make the 'Ooohh' sound. In the case of 'poor' the
word thus comes out as 'puwer', 'paw' comes out as described by Douglas
and 'pour' is not a word I use. Instead of saying 'Please pour me a cup of
tea, my good man' I would say 'tip summa that mucky watter in theer, bugger
lugs'.
Cheers,
Chris.
A.R.D. Pepper
in article <1994Mar4.1...@bradford.ac.uk>:
>Douglas Raith (do...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk) wrote:
>
><stuff I agree with chopped for no reason other than me being mean>
>
>: The 'r' isn't totally ignored, as it modifies the preceding vowel to
>: one of only a few. For example, the words 'paw', 'pour', and 'poor'
>: all sound the same, as do 'kerb' and 'curb'.
>
><stuff I disagree with chopped for the same reason>
>
> Not every body pronounces those words the same. I often, but I have to
>say not always, pronounce words with a 'oo' in it as a word with a 'oo'in
>it. In other words I make the 'Ooohh' sound. In the case of 'poor' the
>word thus comes out as 'puwer',
But, nonetheless, it does not rhyme with "newer", does it? "Newer"
will be a full two syllables, whereas I would expect that your "poor"
is much closer to one syllable than even, say, "poem" is.
This seems sort of related to the way a distinction is made between
"draw" and "drawer".
Perhaps now we're down to how much you pronounce w's, in particular, in
your phonetic spelling of "puwer".
Regarding "pour" and "poor" (and "pore"), I think I make more of a
distinction between them if I think the situation warrants it for some
reason. But, then, I do not speak a pure(!) accent.
Adrian.
Jim Finnis
Ted Schuerzinger <fe...@Dartmouth.EDU> wrote:
>>
>> : Do the words "poor" and "newer" rhyme for speakers of RP?
>>
>> No, they are quite distinct.
>
>putting a "y" sound in words such as "new" and "dew". ;-)
Hehehe... it does help with learning Gaelic, though, since "e" in that
position has some of the traits of a slider glide in Gaelic. In the
East London dialect ("EastEnders") this is taken so far as to make "dew"
and "Jew" homonymous. I must confess I talk like that at times.
Anyway, that wouldn't be the only reason for the lack of rhyme. In RP,
"newer" is bisyllabic, with the second syllable rhyming with "spur".
=============================================================================
Jim Finnis | "Karanon omyr.kerenna"
wh...@elf.dircon.co.uk | ...!uunet!pipex!dircon!elf!white
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
'"I am that merry wanderer of the night"? I am that giggling-dangerous-
totally-bloody-psychotic-menace-to-life-and-limb, more like it."
=============================================================================
John Perkins
>In article <CM4t6...@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com>
>mar...@bri.hp.com (Martin Ackroyd) writes:
>
>> Ted Schuerzinger (fe...@Dartmouth.EDU) wrote:
>>
>> : Do the words "poor" and "newer" rhyme for speakers of RP?
>>
>> No, they are quite distinct.
>
>putting a "y" sound in words such as "new" and "dew". ;-)
>
Hey, it's worse than that. They also include a 'j' sound in the case
of 'dew'. See also 'due', 'dune', 'dubious', etc.
Then there's the 'ch' sound in 'Tuesday' ('chews-day'). It's awful.
John Perkins.
Michael S. Cowgill
fe...@Dartmouth.EDU "Ted Schuerzinger" writes:
>
> Oh yeah -- I forgot that British English has this annoying thing about
> putting a "y" sound in words such as "new" and "dew". ;-)
Well that's what you get when people learn to speak from books and not from
talking to people [ducks as a flame goes flying overhead]. The verbal word
came first, then someone cocked up the written word. :-)
Anyroadup, based on worrase'eer, foget yon arpee stuff. Ah reckon Tyke is't
most spoken, 'cordin to't nummer wots round ere. Oops, sorry, slipping out of
my University accent into my native tongue there for a moment.Cultivated after
none of the lecturers could understand what me and my cousin were saying to
each other.
Mike
ObConfection: (addicted to Maynard's fruity gums at the mo').
P.S. Doncha just hate people that call 'H's haytches... As in "I'll have a
Haitch please Bob" [ducks to avoid more flames]......
--
Michael S. Cowgill (Mike) \_ My opinions! MINEMINEALLMINEHAHAHAHA!
ze...@myth.demon.co.uk (That's me) \_ #include <witticism.h> or if #undef
G1...@GB7WRG.GBR.EU 44.131.2.76 \_ " ...Cracking toast Grommit!...
Charles Mitchell
arpe...@math.uwaterloo.ca (A.R.D. Pepper) writes:
>
> (stuff about words pronounced the same (or not) deleted)
>
>Regarding "pour" and "poor" (and "pore"), I think I make more of a
>distinction between them if I think the situation warrants it for some
>reason. But, then, I do not speak a pure(!) accent.
>
accent (don't we all?), and I would never pronounce "pour" and "poor"
alike. Pour rhymes with door and poor rhymes with sure, thereby
illustrating the glories of English spelling.
Charlie
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Charles Mitchell Academic Information Systems
Phone: 212 854-5023 201 Philosophy
si...@cuvmc.bitnet Columbia University
si...@cuvmc.cc.columbia.edu New York, NY 10027
Jim Finnis
Jim Finnis <wh...@elf.dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Hehehe... it does help with learning Gaelic, though, since "e" in that
>position has some of the traits of a slider glide in Gaelic. In the
I meant a glide vowel, but
my temporal lobes don't work too
well when I'm tired.
Jim
Liz Bright
SI...@CUVMC.AIS.COLUMBIA.EDU(Charles "Charles Mitchell" writes:
> I think of myself as speaking American English without an
>accent (don't we all?), and I would never pronounce "pour" and "poor"
>alike. Pour rhymes with door and poor rhymes with sure, thereby
>illustrating the glories of English spelling.
>
But then again, Charlie, I (speaking Sowf Coast English) find that
door rhymes with sure....
--
*******************************************************************
*|Liz Bright |*|l...@khyri.demon.co.uk |*|Found on most mushes|*
*|Leamington Spa|*|es...@csv.warwick.ac.uk|*|worldwide. |*
*|ENGLAND |*|DEMON - Internet access for 10pounds/month! |*
*******************************************************************
Jason E. Durbin
: In article <CM4t6...@hpwin052.uksr.hp.com>
: mar...@bri.hp.com (Martin Ackroyd) writes:
: > Ted Schuerzinger (fe...@Dartmouth.EDU) wrote:
: >
: >
: > : Do the words "poor" and "newer" rhyme for speakers of RP?
: >
: > No, they are quite distinct.
: Oh yeah -- I forgot that British English has this annoying thing about
: putting a "y" sound in words such as "new" and "dew". ;-)
Well, try preaching that to the few sitting in the pews.
: --Ted Schuerzinger
: Finance Director, Dartmouth Broadcasting
: Fe...@Dartmouth.EDU
: Without a song or a dance what are we? -- ABBA, "Thank You for the Music"
Jason "phew, poo in the pew" Durbin
--
jdu...@netcom.com
Jennifer Barber
l...@khyri.demon.co.uk (Liz Bright) writes:
> In article <16F6F151...@CUVMC.AIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
> SI...@CUVMC.AIS.COLUMBIA.EDU(Charles "Charles Mitchell" writes:
>
> > I think of myself as speaking American English without an
> >accent (don't we all?), and I would never pronounce "pour" and "poor"
> >alike. Pour rhymes with door and poor rhymes with sure, thereby
> >illustrating the glories of English spelling.
> >
> But then again, Charlie, I (speaking Sowf Coast English) find that
> door rhymes with sure....
And to me (non-regional American for the most part, *slight* Southern
accent at times), "sure" rhymes with "her," and "pour," "poor," and
"door" all rhyme.
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: However, I was under the impression (according to my
: foreign-language dictionaries, in the the pronunciations for English words
: are taken from Daniel Jones' dictionary of RP) that "poor", at least (I'm
: not certain of "pour" without looking it up) has an "ooh" sound, not an
: "aw" sound as in "paw". I've always found that "ooh" pronunciation to
: sound incredibly annoying.... However, pour and poor sound the same to
: this American's ears -- both rhyme with bore.
As corroborated by my colleage Dr Gupta, RP has oo-er in words
like `poor', `sure', `cure', `endure' (2nd syll.), `fury' (1st syll.),
etc. However, many English accents in the U.K. and in the common-
wealth (and I'm thinking especially of Australian accents) have
an `aw' sound (as in `cord' or `short'). Scottish accents almost
always have a front `oo' sound (like U + umlaut in German, or
French `u') followed by some sort of `r'. Singapore English has
the `aw' sound EXCEPT for `poor' and `sure' which have the `oo-er'
sound; the reasons for this I'm not sure about.
P. Tan
Singapore
Chris Russell
: >say not always, pronounce words with a 'oo' in it as a word with a 'oo'in
: >it. In other words I make the 'Ooohh' sound. In the case of 'poor' the
: >word thus comes out as 'puwer',
: But, nonetheless, it does not rhyme with "newer", does it? "Newer"
: will be a full two syllables, whereas I would expect that your "poor"
: is much closer to one syllable than even, say, "poem" is.
Er, no it's about the same. It's pronounced the same ways as 'Newer' but
replace the N and Y sounds with a plain old P.
Simon Patience
The only people who do that are the ones who have difficulty in putting the
'y' there.
Simon.
--
Simon Patience Phone: (617) 621-7376
Open Software Foundation FAX: (617) 621-8696
1 Cambridge Center Email: s...@osf.org
Cambridge, MA 02142 uunet!osf!sp
Richard Tobin
> I think of myself as speaking American English without an
>accent (don't we all?), and I would never pronounce "pour" and "poor"
>alike. Pour rhymes with door and poor rhymes with sure, thereby
>illustrating the glories of English spelling.
Ah, well there we have it. For me, "door" rhymes with "sure".
-- Richard
--
Richard Tobin, HCRC, Edinburgh University R.T...@ed.ac.uk
"Your monkey has got it right, sir." - HHGTTG
Andrew J Norman
In a previous article, wheeler@danno (Rob Wheeler) says:
>: In article <1994Mar4.2...@rosevax.rosemount.com>, joh...@bunsen.rosemount.com (John Perkins) writes:
>: > In article <2l7u6j$6...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> fe...@Dartmouth.EDU (Ted Schuerzinger) writes:
>: > >Oh yeah -- I forgot that British English has this annoying thing about
>: > >putting a "y" sound in words such as "new" and "dew". ;-)
>: >
>: > Hey, it's worse than that. They also include a 'j' sound in the case
>: > of 'dew'. See also 'due', 'dune', 'dubious', etc.
>: >
>: > Then there's the 'ch' sound in 'Tuesday' ('chews-day'). It's awful.
>I think that maybe you have had a limited exposure to British English
>due, dew etc has no j sound if it did it would be jew surely?
>
>just my 2p
>Rob.
It may just be the remnants of my sloppy Bristle pronunciation, but I
definitely put a "ch" sound in "Tuesday" *and* a "j" in "dew". East
Midlands usage is to say "Toosday", "Doo", etc. (More in Lincs than Leics).
--
/*****************************************************
* Andrew Norman n...@le.ac.uk *
* Engineering Dept, University of Leicester, England *
*****************************************************/
Richard Tobin
>I think that maybe you have had a limited exposure to British English
>due, dew etc has no j sound if it did it would be jew surely?
Sorry, I'm afraid you must have led a sheltered life in Bristol. Many
British people do indeed pronounce "due", "due" and "jew" similarly.
Ted Schuerzinger
ellg...@leonis.nus.sg (Anthea F Gupta) writes:
> In some varieties of RP "pour" and "paw" sound the same but "poor"
> sounds different. In others all three are identical. Similarly, in some
> varieties of RP "tower" and "tar" are different & in others they're the
> same. It's more usual in younger speakers to have pour=paw=poor and
> tower=tar.
I didn't know there were varieties of RP. *Flame on* I always thought it
was an accent created by a bunch of pompous, arrogant upper-class SE
England "public school" old-boys that everybody was supposed to speak
perfectly if they wanted any chance to get ahead. (After all, isn't that
the plot of "My Fair Lady"?) *Flame off*
At any rate, I always thought that tower is a bisyllabic word; the vowel
sound in the first syllable also rhymes with cow, not car. For those RP
speakers from whom tower=tar, does power=par? Does cower=car?
--Ted Schuerzinger
Finance Director, Dartmouth Broadcasting
Fe...@Dartmouth.EDU
Honjie Wang
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hongjie Wang
hw...@moose.uvm.edu
Anthea F Gupta
: I was under the impression (according to my
: foreign-language dictionaries, in the the pronunciations for English words
: are taken from Daniel Jones' dictionary of RP) that "poor", at least (I'm
: not certain of "pour" without looking it up) has an "ooh" sound, not an
: "aw" sound as in "paw".
In some varieties of RP "pour" and "paw" sound the same but "poor"
sounds different. In others all three are identical. Similarly, in some
varieties of RP "tower" and "tar" are different & in others they're the
same. It's more usual in younger speakers to have pour=paw=poor and
tower=tar.
Anthea
--
_________________________________________________________________________
Anthea Fraser GUPTA
English Language & Literature
National University of Singapore
Kent Ridge e-mail: ellg...@leonis.nus.sg
Singapore 0511 telephone: (65) 772 3933
________________________________________________________________________
Anthea F Gupta
: Ted Schuerzinger (fe...@Dartmouth.EDU) wrote:
: As corroborated by my colleage Dr Gupta, RP has oo-er in words
: like `poor', `sure', `cure', `endure' (2nd syll.), `fury' (1st syll.),
: etc. However, many English accents in the U.K. and in the common-
: wealth (and I'm thinking especially of Australian accents) have
: an `aw' sound (as in `cord' or `short'). Scottish accents almost
: always have a front `oo' sound (like U + umlaut in German, or
: French `u') followed by some sort of `r'. Singapore English has
: the `aw' sound EXCEPT for `poor' and `sure' which have the `oo-er'
: sound; the reasons for this I'm not sure about.
Peter -- we must stop meeting like this!!! Actually I said that in some
varieties of RP `poor' & `paw' are the same & in other varieties of RP
they're different. Actually I think in Modern RP the `aw' sound
(backwards c, long) is more usual in `poor' and the oo-uh (curly u,
schwa) diphthong is the less usual/ old fashioned. It's not surprising
SingE has oo-uh -- it's more or less only modern RP and S.BrE where oo-uh
has conflated with aw, I think.
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: Many British people say "law" as if it were written "lore".
: On the other hand, many Americans pronounce it as "lah"
: And we South Africans "Pork the cor in the porking lot."
^^^^^^^^^^^
One question and one comment.
1. Does `parking lot' in South African English refer to individual
bays (as in Singapore English) or to the whole carpark (as in
American English)?
2. The intrusive r (`Chinar and India', `lawr and order'), I thought,
was present in English accents *without* the post-vocalic r, and
therefore can be found in, e.g., Australian English as well.
Peter Tan
Rob Wheeler
: > In article <2l7u6j$6...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> fe...@Dartmouth.EDU (Ted Schuerzinger) writes:
: > >Oh yeah -- I forgot that British English has this annoying thing about
: > >putting a "y" sound in words such as "new" and "dew". ;-)
: >
: > Hey, it's worse than that. They also include a 'j' sound in the case
: > of 'dew'. See also 'due', 'dune', 'dubious', etc.
: >
: > Then there's the 'ch' sound in 'Tuesday' ('chews-day'). It's awful.
due, dew etc has no j sound if it did it would be jew surely?
just my 2p
Rob.
|X|========================================================
e-mail me (Rob Wheeler) at: whe...@compsci.bristol.ac.uk
find me on the irc as larsdahl (usually #england)
#include <std.disclaimer> my opinions etc...
I like having a machine called 'elvis' on the network because that way, I
can say 'ping elvis' and have it come back with 'elvis is alive'."
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)
: : Do the words "poor" and "newer" rhyme for speakers of RP?
Do be brief, son!
Do the words sheep and frog sound the same?
Is my Auntie green?
Where do you lot conjure up these questions from?
Apologies for sarcasm, Kev
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)
: >Oh yeah -- I forgot that British English has this annoying thing about
: >putting a "y" sound in words such as "new" and "dew". ;-)
: Hey, it's worse than that. They also include a 'j' sound in the case
: of 'dew'. See also 'due', 'dune', 'dubious', etc.
: Then there's the 'ch' sound in 'Tuesday' ('chews-day'). It's awful.
: John Perkins.
You might be over-generalizing a tad here chaps, lazy speakers of English may
well include the pronounciation idiosyncrasies - but don't tar us all with the
same brush.
You might also be hearing a number of different British accents, which can
drastically alter the sound of some of the above words. In the county of
Norfolk for instance, Tuesday is pronounced (with a local accent) as a sort
of American-like `toos-dee'.
Finally, how dare a couple of septics post to this group and call the British
accents "awful". Why not try alt.soc.guttural.yankee.drawl? ;-)
Kev
Ted Schuerzinger
ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
> Sorry, I'm afraid you must have led a sheltered life in Bristol. Many
> British people do indeed pronounce "due", "due" and "jew" similarly.
^^^ ^^^
I would hope that people pronounce "due" and "due" similarly! ;-)
I assume you meant "dew" and "due", which I pronounce the same way; this
pronunciation, however, is neither "dyoo" or "Jew".
John Perkins
>In article <CMAzs...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
>ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
>
>> Sorry, I'm afraid you must have led a sheltered life in Bristol. Many
>> British people do indeed pronounce "due", "due" and "jew" similarly.
> ^^^ ^^^
>I would hope that people pronounce "due" and "due" similarly! ;-)
>
>I assume you meant "dew" and "due", which I pronounce the same way; this
>pronunciation, however, is neither "dyoo" or "Jew".
I assume you meant nor :-)
John Perkins.
Jennifer Barber
krob...@umbc.edu (Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)) writes:
>
> Finally, how dare a couple of septics post to this group and call the British
> accents "awful". Why not try alt.soc.guttural.yankee.drawl? ;-)
^^^^^^ ^^^^^
Probably because it's Southerners who have the drawl, not Yankees. :)
jennifer
John Perkins
>
>At any rate, I always thought that tower is a bisyllabic word; the vowel
>sound in the first syllable also rhymes with cow, not car. For those RP
>speakers from whom tower=tar, does power=par? Does cower=car?
>
Yes, power=par (or pah, if you like), but I don't know about cower.
I find it quite amusing to hear a BBC RP speaker pronounce a phrase
like "fire power", or "Science Hour": it's all done with a single
vowel sound... pretty efficient I suppose.
John Perkins.
Steve Hayes
>
>: And we South Africans "Pork the cor in the porking lot."
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>One question and one comment.
>
>1. Does `parking lot' in South African English refer to individual
>bays (as in Singapore English) or to the whole carpark (as in
>American English)?
The whole carpark. We would call the individual bays "parking places".
>2. The intrusive r (`Chinar and India', `lawr and order'), I thought,
>was present in English accents *without* the post-vocalic r, and
>therefore can be found in, e.g., Australian English as well.
I think I have heard people say it "Chiner in India"
============================================================
Steve Hayes, Editorial Department, University of South Africa
P.O. Box 392, Pretoria, 0001 South Africa
Internet: haye...@risc1.unisa.ac.za Fidonet: 5:7106/20.1
steve...@p1.f20.n7106.z5.fidonet.org
Colin Kendall
> Finally, how dare a couple of septics post to this group and call the British
> accents "awful". Why not try alt.soc.guttural.yankee.drawl? ;-)
Let's face it, septics will post to any group and say anything. Scumbags!
--
Warmest regards,
Colin Kendall.
Phone (813) 371-0811 extension 6842
Jane Skinner
>In article <2lihl0$f...@news.umbc.edu>
>krob...@umbc.edu (Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)) writes:
>>
>> Finally, how dare a couple of septics post to this group and call the British
>> accents "awful". Why not try alt.soc.guttural.yankee.drawl? ;-)
> ^^^^^^ ^^^^
Perhaps it's not really what "drawl" means, but to me, a lot of Americans,
not just Southerners, seem to talk more slowly that the average Brit. Do
other people agree, or am I imagining things?
While I'm yank-bashing, don't people find a lot of American voices
monotonous, with British accents having a greater variety in pitch and
tone?
Jane.
Calum Benson
>
>: : Do the words "poor" and "newer" rhyme for speakers of RP?
>
>
> Is my Auntie green?
Do you lot write the questions for Showbiz Sam ?
Slainte,
Calum.
+---------------------------------------+----------------------------+
|Calum Benson | email: cal...@logcam.co.uk |
|Logica Cambridge (User Interface Div.) | Tel: (0223) 66343 x4825 |
|Betjeman House +------------------+----------------------------|
|104 Hills Road | " I just wouldn't know a single word to say |
|Cambridge CB2 1LQ | If I flattened all my vowels and I threw |
|UK | the R away." (The Proclaimers) |
+--------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
Chris Russell
: In article <2lih22$f...@news.umbc.edu> krob...@umbc.edu (Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)) writes:
: >
: >: : Do the words "poor" and "newer" rhyme for speakers of RP?
The way I pronounce them yes, but I, like everybody else, don't speak RP.
: > Do the words sheep and frog sound the same?
: > Is my Auntie green?
Probably.
: Do you lot write the questions for Showbiz Sam ?
I was offered the job but I turned it down. I understand Kev has a part
time contract though.
Cheers,
Chris.
Dick Jackson
>While I'm yank-bashing, don't people find a lot of American voices
>monotonous, with British accents having a greater variety in pitch and
>tone?
Yes, this was discussed here a couple of months ago and everyone
agreed with your opinion.
Dick J
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)
: > Finally, how dare a couple of septics post to this group and call the British
: > accents "awful". Why not try alt.soc.guttural.yankee.drawl? ;-)
: ^^^^^^ ^^^^^
: Probably because it's Southerners who have the drawl, not Yankees. :)
: jennifer
I stand corrected, and appreciate the informative mail that reached me as a
result of this tongue-in-cheek post. Thank you and good night.
+ Kev Robinson "You are mercifully free from the +
+ Dept of Biol. Sci. ravages of intelligence!" +
+ University of Maryland The Devil, Time Bandits +
+ Baltimore, MD, USA +
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)
: : Do you lot write the questions for Showbiz Sam ?
: I was offered the job but I turned it down. I understand Kev has a part
: time contract though.
: Cheers,
: Chris.
Ok , I give in... who is Showbiz Sam?
--
Calum Benson
>
> Ok , I give in... who is Showbiz Sam?
>
Handling readers' queries about all things showbiz every Saturday in the
Scottish Daily Record, SS is probably the most knowledgable person on the
planet. Who else would know that Clint Eastwood isn't Stan Laurel's son?
That Johnny Beattie is currently appearing at the Gaiety Theatre in Ayr?
Who else knows the addresses of all the showbiz stars, and will even send
you money if you send him a question he can't answer?
What a guy.
M.GAFFNEY
>monotonous, with British accents having a greater variety in pitch and
>tone?
>Jane.
Yes. They also need to be reminded whose language it is and stop
complaining about British usage!
Mike
Douglas Raith
>I was amazed to hear people in England pronounce "garage" as "ga-ridge".
>In Seth Efrican we (at least my family) say "ga-raadzsh" as in "barage".
Funny, I thought you pronounced it differently..(maybe it varies). I
remember this joke I heard years back:
Visitor to SA: "What with SA labelled as the pariah of the world, and
picked out for sanctions, etc - do you have a grudge?"
Local: "A grudge? A grudge?? Of course I have a grudge!
Where do you think I pawk my caw?!"
William Davenant
>>1. Does `parking lot' in South African English refer to individual
>>bays (as in Singapore English) or to the whole carpark (as in
>>American English)?
>
>The whole carpark. We would call the individual bays "parking places".
Hmmm. As we say in the US.
William Davenant
>>monotonous, with British accents having a greater variety in pitch and
>>tone?
Humbug.
>Yes. They also need to be reminded whose language it is and stop
>complaining about British usage!
Why am I reminded of Pygmalian (sp?) / My Fair Lady ...?
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)
: > >While I'm yank-bashing, don't people find a lot of American voices
: Humbug.
--Give in Davey boy, do tell us... you usually do, even though you're
forever in the minority. It really seems painful for you to post to this
group, but what the hell, give it your best shot.
Kev
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
+ Kev Robinson + "You are mercifully free from the +
+ Dept of Biol. Sci. + ravages of intelligence!" Time Bandits +
+ University of Maryland +-----------------------------------------+
+ Baltimore, MD 21228, USA + Nil Carborundum Illegitimus ! +
+-----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
cw...@marcie.wellesley.edu
Englishperson, shrr to Sesame Street) how English RP enunciates
"poor." But I've never heard anyone from anywhere rhyme it with
"newer," which for one thing is disyllabic.
Ted Schuerzinger is still puzzled by the effect of "r" on vowels
in English RP (or Australian, NZ, South African, Indian, presumably),
and says that even in the US "poor" and "pour" still rhyme. Yes,
they do, but they don't rhyme in any of those places with "pooh"
--the "r" modifies the vowel sound.
When I was studying first-year linguistics back in Australia I
had an American professor. She wanted to explain to us the nature
of phonemic difference (like this) and thought she had a good
example: how did we in Oz say "god" and "guard"? She expected that
we, who don't roll the r, would rhyme them, as in most US dialects
they have the same vowel. But we don't: the vowel in "guard" is
a back a (open your mouth and say AH) whereas the vowel in "god,"
whether long or short (interestingly, many of us make it short
in "god," as in one of a pantheon, and long in "God"), is rounded.
Actually very few US dialects seem to make as many phonemic
distinctions between vowel sounds as English and some others--
or maybe it's just that they make different ones. Do you
rhyme "cot" and "caught"? Most Americans seem to, but I don't.
Caroline
cw...@marcie.wellesley.edu
>The intrusive r (`Chinar and India', `lawr and order'), I thought,
>was present in English accents *without* the post-vocalic r, and
>therefore can be found in, e.g., Australian English as well.
Yes, it can; though btw I think the representation should be
"China rand India," or "Chinarand India," b/c the r is a front r.
I would also say "Ithacaris a town in upstate New York" (its
name is "Ithaca") even though there's no r at all. But Americans
put something there too: it's called a glottal stop, and appears
in phonetic transcribing systems just like any other sound.
Sorry, I'm not in an editor--I meant to say "many Americans." I
know in some the vowels run together (more or less) instead.
Caroline
Jim Finnis
John Perkins <joh...@bunsen.rosemount.com> wrote:
>>At any rate, I always thought that tower is a bisyllabic word; the vowel
>>sound in the first syllable also rhymes with cow, not car. For those RP
>>speakers from whom tower=tar, does power=par? Does cower=car?
>>
>
>Yes, power=par (or pah, if you like), but I don't know about cower.
>
>I find it quite amusing to hear a BBC RP speaker pronounce a phrase
>like "fire power", or "Science Hour": it's all done with a single
>vowel sound... pretty efficient I suppose.
>
Being an RP speaker (please don't hit me - I can't help it! I was born
in Kent) this all sounds pretty bogus. Tower, power and cower and hour
are all bisyllabic, although the second syllable is pronounced as a
schwa. I'm listening to the BBC right now, and the man just said
"hour", pronounced "[au@]" (@=that IPA thing that looks like an
upside-down "e").
However, speakers of the "working-class" South-East accent - the accent
Hepburn did a bad caricature of in My Fair Lady - would tend to pronounce
"hour" as [ae:@] ([ae:] = "a" in "bat" but longer for those who don't
speak IPA). [ae:] and [@] are quite similar in sound, both being back
vowels, and so may well be indistinguishable when heard by someone who
is not a speaker of that accent - particularly when the [@] is
delivered very quickly, almost as an afterthought. One of the main
differences between RP and South-East is that RP [au] becomes [ae:] in
SouthEast. So you get "daahn taahn" for "down town".
The regional accent of the South East is slowly leaking into London BBC
pronunciation, which is probably where the misconception that
power,tower etc. are monosyllabic in RP comes from.
>John Perkins.
Jim.
denn...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
London), although I've lived in New Zealand for a few years.
My first reaction was that `poor', `pour', `door', and `sure' all rhyme.
But I think that `sure' is subtly different - slightly towards the oo-er
sound, but not much.
`Sure' and `cure' are quite different.
In article <1994Mar8.2...@rosevax.rosemount.com>, joh...@bunsen.rosemount.com (John Perkins) writes:
>In article <2lfnin$4...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> fe...@dartmouth.edu (Ted Schuerzinger) writes:
>>
>>At any rate, I always thought that tower is a bisyllabic word; the vowel
>>sound in the first syllable also rhymes with cow, not car. For those RP
>>speakers from whom tower=tar, does power=par? Does cower=car?
>>
>
>Yes, power=par (or pah, if you like), but I don't know about cower.
I seem to pronounce `tower' with either 1, 1.5, or 2 syllables, depending
on context, time of day, mood, whom I'm trying to impress etc. When I
say `the Tower of London', it comes out as a single syllable, but it
certainly doesn't rhyme with `tar'.
`Power' is much the same, but I'd always give `cower' two syllables.
On the other hand, `cowering' also has two syllables. Isn't that strange?
I remember getting told off by my English teacher at school for
pronouncing `tour' to rhyme with `tor'. He reckoned it should be
`too-er', but I was never convinced.
>
>I find it quite amusing to hear a BBC RP speaker pronounce a phrase
>like "fire power", or "Science Hour": it's all done with a single
>vowel sound... pretty efficient I suppose.
>
I seems to me that English has a very wide range of subtly different
vowel sounds, possible as a result of the large number of other languages
that have influenced it over the centuries.
Giving `t' and `d' their pure sounds in `Tuesday' and `dew' (as opposed to
making them sound like `ch' and `j') would have had me beaten up at school
for being a snob. The pure sounds still sound unnatural to me, reminiscent
of BBC radio announcers from the 1950s.
There are, of course, no definitive answers to these matters. Languages
are alive and constantly evolving parts of culture. The fact that
English has become an international language doesn't take away people's
rights to pronounce their own language according to the custom of there
own locality. In fact I think that English is totally unsuited to
being an international language, but that's another story.
cheers
Chris Dennis denn...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Wellington, Aotearoa
Philip Howells
..............In fact I think that English is totally unsuited to
> being an international language, but that's another story.
>
Isn't the fact that there's so many variations, most of which are not
"incorrect", exactly what makes English so suitable to be an international
language? I hope it is, cos at my age learning another language would be
uphill to say the least! :)
--
Philip Howells
Manchester UK
CompuServe 100042,1434
M MacKinnon
and for years I was intrigued by the mention of a woman called Laura
Norder. Kinda like the BBC has abandoned all pretensions to RP.
Mike
Chris Russell
: I don't know for sure (shaw to an Aussie like me, shooe to an
: Englishperson, shrr to Sesame Street) how English RP enunciates
: "poor." But I've never heard anyone from anywhere rhyme it with
: "newer," which for one thing is disyllabic.
So the entire population of North West England is disyllabic then? It's
simply a way of pronouncing the 'oo' sound (as in 'hoot') whilst making
room for the 'r' sound. It comes out rhyming with 'newer'.
: Ted Schuerzinger is still puzzled by the effect of "r" on vowels
: in English RP (or Australian, NZ, South African, Indian, presumably),
: and says that even in the US "poor" and "pour" still rhyme. Yes,
: they do, but they don't rhyme in any of those places with "pooh"
: --the "r" modifies the vowel sound.
Not always, as I mention above. Certain British accents don't make
allowances for the 'r' but still accommodate it none the less (if
you see what I mean). The accents that spring to mind are specifically
based in North West England ie Lancashire, Westmorland, Cumberland etc but
spill over the border into western parts of Yorkshire. I pronounce it to
rhyme with 'newer' (I'm from Bradford in West Yorkshire) but then I have
particularly strong accent.
Ted Schuerzinger
ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
> Ah, well there we have it. For me, "door" rhymes with "sure"
Are you saying you pronounce "sure" the same way you pronounce "shore"?
I've only heard one pronunciation for "door", and that's the one that
rhymes with "shore".
Marc R Harris
> I've only heard one pronunciation for "door", and that's the one that
> rhymes with "shore".
To somemone like me, who *does* pronounce shore the same as sure, that sentence
is very bizarre, bordering on surreal.
William Davenant
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC) <krob...@umbc.edu> wrote:
>
>: Why am I reminded of Pygmalian (sp?) / My Fair Lady ...?
>
>
>--Give in Davey boy, do tell us... you usually do, even though you're
> forever in the minority. It really seems painful for you to post to this
> group, but what the hell, give it your best shot.
Ha Ha! Methinks thy grapes are, how you say? sour. Btw, it's an unfortuate
fact of human society that persons of superior intellect are in the minority.
Also, remember that for some, pain is pleasure. Surely you know that?
At our last meeting you asked me to go easy with the KY, remember ...?
Calum Benson
>I don't know for sure (shaw to an Aussie like me, shooe to an
>Englishperson, shrr to Sesame Street) how English RP enunciates
>"poor." But I've never heard anyone from anywhere rhyme it with
>"newer," which for one thing is disyllabic.
Go out and buy some Proclaimers albums then. The wonders of the Fife accent
are a joy to behold (or is that behear).
>Actually very few US dialects seem to make as many phonemic
>distinctions between vowel sounds as English and some others--
>or maybe it's just that they make different ones. Do you
>rhyme "cot" and "caught"? Most Americans seem to, but I don't.
I do.
Dr. Kevin Robinson (BIOL; FAC)
: fact of human society that persons of superior intellect are in the minority.
: Also, remember that for some, pain is pleasure. Surely you know that?
: At our last meeting you asked me to go easy with the KY, remember ...?
Err, now I'm totally confused - at least I prompted a reply, but I'm afraid
you've lost me with the pain is pleasure bit!!! And what has Kentucky got to
do with all this? I'm only kidding.
On a serious (slightly) note, I think the original poster mentioned a wider
variety of accents appearing in the media. Although I disagree that any of
these "new found" accents are British or British-like, there seems to be a
tendancy towards more neutral US accents (what I would call obviously
American, but not necessarily from a particular area).
This happened a great deal some time ago in the British media and I wondered
if this is what the poster was referring to?
Cheers, Kev
--
Kelly Shuldberg
>> being an international language, but that's another story.
>>
>Isn't the fact that there's so many variations, most of which are not
>"incorrect", exactly what makes English so suitable to be an international
>language? I hope it is, cos at my age learning another language would be
>uphill to say the least! :)
I was sort of waiting for Phillip's response.
If you say something and you're understood, then, linguistically speaking,
you are correct. If you think that there is a proper way in which a
language should be used in order to be acceptable, communication aside,
then you are a prescriptive prude. English works for the world mostly
because English-speaking countries control the current world economy. In
times past, it was Spanish or Portugeuese. In the future, it may well be
Japanese, which is no less nor more difficult to learn than English, and
for which there must be bastardised versions already spoken by wannabes.
Are there any linguists on this newsgroup?
ks
M J G Day
: not just Southerners, seem to talk more slowly that the average Brit. Do
: other people agree, or am I imagining things?
: While I'm yank-bashing, don't people find a lot of American voices
: monotonous, with British accents having a greater variety in pitch and
: tone?
: Jane.
Yup i heartily agree with you Jane and there all stupid too you know!!!
--
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
! !
! M.J....@dur.ac.uk Lifes a bitch !!! !
! Durham University And today she's carrying a !
! England Plasmatic Repeator. !
! !
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
M J G Day
>I think of myself as speaking American English withoutan :
>accent (don't we all?), and I would never pronounce "pour" and "poor" :
>alike. Pour rhymes with door and poor rhymes with sure, thereby :
>illustrating the glories of English spelling.
hmmmm for my money door poor pour and sure all ryme if you want them too!!
but there you go!
Ted Schuerzinger
M J G Day <M.J....@durham.ac.uk> writes:
> Yup i heartily agree with you Jane and there all stupid too you know!
Are they so stupid that they don't capitalize the word "I"?
Are they so stupid that they say "there" when "they're" is obviously
indicated?
--Ted Schuerzinger
Finance Director, Dartmouth Broadcasting
Fe...@Dartmouth.EDU
'Cause all around the world, people want to love and be loved -- Basia,
"Copernicus"
Ted Schuerzinger
> Actually very few US dialects seem to make as many phonemic
> distinctions between vowel sounds as English and some others--
I'm not about to argue with you on this point, since I've never studied
linguistics.
> or maybe it's just that they make different ones. Do you
> rhyme "cot" and "caught"? Most Americans seem to, but I don't.
Most Americans I know *don't* pronounce "cot" the same way as "caught".
The vowel in "cot" is, at the very least, a good deal longer (and that's
if the same vowel sound is used in the two words). I personally use
different vowel sounds in the two: the "ah" sound in "cot", and the "aw"
sound in "caught".
Anthea F Gupta
: I was amazed to hear people in England pronounce "garage" as "ga-ridge".
: In Seth Efrican we (at least my family) say "ga-raadzsh" as in "barage".
: Some people in SA also pronounce "sure" the same as "shore".
In England some people say "ga-ridge" and some say "guh-rahzh". In
Singapore it's normally "ga-rahdzh". People keep cars in them in any
case (though actually we have an ironing board and washing lines in ours
..).
Anthea
_________________________________________________________________________
Anthea Fraser GUPTA
English Language & Literature
National University of Singapore
Kent Ridge e-mail: ellg...@leonis.nus.sg
Singapore 0511 telephone: (65) 772 3933
________________________________________________________________________
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: In England some people say "ga-ridge" and some say "guh-rahzh". In
: Singapore it's normally "ga-rahdzh". People keep cars in them in any
: case (though actually we have an ironing board and washing lines in ours
: ..).
Plus, in Britain, this is where you take your car to for
petrol and repairs. BTW, the British people that I know
always put the accent on the first syllable (whether the
second syllable is `ridge' or `rahzh'), unlike Americans
who seem to prefer the accent on the second syllable. I
think that the second pronunciation has an `a' sound (as
in `cat'), rather than an `uh' sound (as in the second
syllable of `after'): `GA-rahzh'.
Peter Tan
denn...@ix.wcc.govt.nz
>In article <2logl5$7...@golem.wcc.govt.nz> denn...@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz writes:
>
>> being an international language, but that's another story.
>>
>Isn't the fact that there's so many variations, most of which are not
>language? I hope it is, cos at my age learning anot er language would be
>
>--
>Philip Howells
>Manchester UK
>CompuServe 100042,1434
I was referring to the complexities and inconsistencies of spelling,
pronunciation, and grammar that make English so hard to learn.
Maybe English could be standardized and sterilized for international
use, as long as the resulting language isn't called English. That
would leave real English for use by the English, and stop others
messing about with it.
Richard Tobin
>Are you saying you pronounce "sure" the same way you pronounce "shore"?
Yes.
-- Richard
--
Richard Tobin, HCRC, Edinburgh University R.T...@ed.ac.uk
"Your monkey has got it right, sir." - HHGTTG
Alan J Holmes
>> Ah, well there we have it. For me, "door" rhymes with "sure"
>Are you saying you pronounce "sure" the same way you pronounce "shore"?
>I've only heard one pronunciation for "door", and that's the one that
>rhymes with "shore".
That's the way I pronounce it, sure, shore and door all the same.
And I've been an englishman all my life (I think!)
Regards
Alan Holmes
Michael Taylor
: : Jane.
--
Right, M.J.G, and you are obviously not.
Good sentance, by the way.
(they are more stupid though, just look at what they've done to that good old english game 'rounders'
***************************************************************************
* *
* 'Fat Bastard' It might hurt, *
* but it probably won't *
* (Michael...@uk.ac.durham) kill you. *
* *
***************************************************************************
Mike Forslof
>claa...@vax.oxford.ac.uk wrote:
>: I was amazed to hear people in England pronounce "garage" as "ga-ridge".
>: In Seth Efrican we (at least my family) say "ga-raadzsh" as in "barage".
>In England some people say "ga-ridge" and some say "guh-rahzh". In
>Singapore it's normally "ga-rahdzh". People keep cars in them in any
>case (though actually we have an ironing board and washing lines in ours
>..).
>Anthea
The English are at least consistent when they pronounce it "GA-ridge."
They have anglicized the pronunciation of a French word, just as both
English and Americans pronounce courage "CUR-idge." Chaucer apparently
pronounced it "coo-RAJH" as did others in his era. Fowler recommends
anglicizing the word.
Mike Forslof
Ted Schuerzinger
ellt...@leonis.nus.sg (P. K. W. Tan (Dr)) writes:
> Anthea F Gupta (ellg...@leonis.nus.sg) wrote:
>
> : In England some people say "ga-ridge" and some say "guh-rahzh". In
> : Singapore it's normally "ga-rahdzh". People keep cars in them in any
> : case (though actually we have an ironing board and washing lines in ours
> : ..).
>
> Plus, in Britain, this is where you take your car to for
> petrol and repairs.
In the US, you can take your car to a garage for repairs, but not for gas
(note that we don't call it petrol!). Not to get back to a thread we had
a month or two ago, but for gas, we go to a gas station.
> BTW, the British people that I know
> always put the accent on the first syllable (whether the
> second syllable is `ridge' or `rahzh'), unlike Americans
> who seem to prefer the accent on the second syllable. I
> think that the second pronunciation has an `a' sound (as
> in `cat'), rather than an `uh' sound (as in the second
> syllable of `after'): `GA-rahzh'.
All the Americans I've heard, including myself, pronounce "garage" with an
"uh" sound for the first a.
Ted Schuerzinger
Michael Taylor <Michael...@durham.ac.uk> writes:
> Right, M.J.G, and you are obviously not.
> Good sentance, by the way.
^^^^^^^^
Why isn't this word in my dictionary?
> (they are more stupid though, just look at what they've done to that good old english game 'rounders'
I've never understood why Brits use a paddle in the "sport" of cricket,
and not a nice round bat. Also, I don't understand why some people have
an aversion to matching parentheses. :-)
Anthea F Gupta
: Plus, in Britain, this is where you take your car to for
: petrol and repairs. BTW, the British people that I know
: always put the accent on the first syllable (whether the
: second syllable is `ridge' or `rahzh'), unlike Americans
: who seem to prefer the accent on the second syllable. I
: think that the second pronunciation has an `a' sound (as
: in `cat'), rather than an `uh' sound (as in the second
: syllable of `after'): `GA-rahzh'.
Yes -- this is the pronunciation given first by Longman's pronouncing
dictionary for BrE. followed by 'ga-rahdzh, 'ga-ridge, guh'rahzh. For
AmE it gives only guh'rahzh and guh'rahzh.
Anthea --
Ted Schuerzinger
ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
> In article <2lsmri$d...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> fe...@dartmouth.edu (Ted Schuerzinger) writes:
> >Are you saying you pronounce "sure" the same way you pronounce "shore"?
>
> Yes.
Wow! I didn't realize anybody pronounces those two words alike!
Do you pronounce "lure" and "lore" the same way? Or does the "aw" sound
only creep into "sure"? (I wonder why it would creep into "sure", and not
other words ending in -ure. I *really* can't imagine most other -ure
words ending with an "awr" [or even an "aw"] pronunciation.)
--Ted Schuerzinger
Finance Director, Dartmouth Broadcasting
Fe...@Dartmouth.EDU
DACOD
Ted Schuerzinger <fe...@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>In article <CMpMB...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
>ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
>
>> In article <2lsmri$d...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> fe...@dartmouth.edu (Ted Schuerzinger) writes:
>> >Are you saying you pronounce "sure" the same way you pronounce "shore"?
>>
>> Yes.
>
>Wow! I didn't realize anybody pronounces those two words alike!
>
>Do you pronounce "lure" and "lore" the same way? Or does the "aw" sound
>only creep into "sure"? (I wonder why it would creep into "sure", and not
>other words ending in -ure. I *really* can't imagine most other -ure
>words ending with an "awr" [or even an "aw"] pronunciation.)
No, "lure" has a -y- sound in it (yes, daft, I know) - "lyoor". This is
how one Hampshire (central-Southern England) person pronounces it, anyway;
some other people keep the -y-, but pronounce the -ure as -ur in "fur" -
"lyur".
DACOD
--
: DACOD (dy...@aber.ac.uk) : "Its habit of getting up late you'll agree :
: College of Librarianship : That it carries too far, when I say :
: UCW, Aberystwyth. : That it frequently breakfasts on 5-o'clock tea :
: Carroll, "THotS", Fit II>: And dines on the following day." :
Richard Tobin
>Do you pronounce "lure" and "lore" the same way?
No. I can't think of any other -ure words I pronounce that way, excpt
ones related to "sure" (eg "assure").
P. K. W. Tan (Dr)
: Do you pronounce "lure" and "lore" the same way? Or does the "aw" sound
: only creep into "sure"? (I wonder why it would creep into "sure", and not
: other words ending in -ure. I *really* can't imagine most other -ure
: words ending with an "awr" [or even an "aw"] pronunciation.)
But, dear Ted, earlier posts have already mentioned that this
is generalisable across other words ending with -ure (which
are stressed, therefore exclude `figure', `picture', etc.).
But in answer to the first question: the person who would
say `pyaw' (pure), `kyaw' (cure), `dyaw-ray-shn' (duration),
and `indyaw' (endure) would never pronounce `lure' and `lore'
the same way because the former would have a `y' sound in
it (`lyaw' as opposed to `law'). And yes, `lore' and `law'
would be pronounced the same way in isolation.
P. Tan
Raphael Mankin
fe...@dartmouth.edu "Ted Schuerzinger" writes:
>
> In the US, you can take your car to a garage for repairs, but not for gas
> (note that we don't call it petrol!). Not to get back to a thread we had
> a month or two ago, but for gas, we go to a gas station.
>
In Britain, if you want gas (not petrol) for your car you _still_ take
it to a petrol station (or garage) and not to a gas station. Still gas
is gas, and petrol is petrol, and the two things are not the same.
--
Raphael Mankin There are few situations in life that cannot
be resolved promptly, and to the satisfaction
of all concerned, by either suicide, a bag of
gold, or thrusting a despised antagonist over
a precipice on a dark night.
Ernest Bramah (Kai Lung stories)
Simon Patience
> In article <CMpMB...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
> ric...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) writes:
>
> > In article <2lsmri$d...@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> fe...@dartmouth.edu (Ted Schuerzinger) writes:
> > >Are you saying you pronounce "sure" the same way you pronounce "shore"?
> >
> > Yes.
>
> Wow! I didn't realize anybody pronounces those two words alike!
Well here's another one.
> Do you pronounce "lure" and "lore" the same way?
Nope. There is a definite 'y' in lure just after the 'l'.
> Or does the "aw" sound
> only creep into "sure"? (I wonder why it would creep into "sure", and not
> other words ending in -ure.
Presumably for the same reason that the 'h' crept into 'sure' just after the 's'.
> I *really* can't imagine most other -ure
> words ending with an "awr" [or even an "aw"] pronunciation.)
Nor can I off hand, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone came up with one,
English being what it is.
Simon.
--
Simon Patience Phone: (617) 621-7376
Open Software Foundation FAX: (617) 621-8696
1 Cambridge Center Email: s...@osf.org
Cambridge, MA 02142 uunet!osf!sp
M J G Day
: Are they so stupid that they don't capitalize the word "I"?
: Are they so stupid that they say "there" when "they're" is obviously
: indicated?
No but they are stupid enough to take the bait of an easily ignorable slur
on their character!!!!
and they do have probably the worst armed forces in the world!!
not to mention a shite industrial base and economy
I mean mention one decent product that the americans produce that isn't a
soft drink!!!!
heheh ***8-)
M J G Day
: put something there too: it's called a glottal stop, and appears
: in phonetic transcribing systems just like any other sound.
The glottal stop is also a feature of some English accents like London
accents i.e people who say Saff Lundn meaning south london!!
Michael Taylor
: In article <2m4qvl$p...@mercury.dur.ac.uk>
: Michael Taylor <Michael...@durham.ac.uk> writes:
well done, you spotted my cunning deliberate mistakes.
you'r not all stupid then.
(We use a paddle to row with.)
Chris Russell
: I mean mention one decent product that the americans produce that isn't a
: soft drink!!!!
Probably the machine that you're posting through but that's not important
right now.
--
Chris Russell Hear all, See all, Say Nowt,
Electronic Imaging Eat all, Drink all, Pay Nowt,
and Media Communications And if evva tha' does owt fer nowt,
University of Bradford Allus do it fer thisen.
co...@acfcluster.nyu.edu
>
>I mean mention one decent product that the americans produce that isn't a
>soft drink!!!!
Coffee
Margaret Cordi
"So the big, fat bride lived happily ever after" - Italo Calvino
Calum Benson
>
>The glottal stop is also a feature of some English accents
... and, indeed, most Scottish ones. Hence: "yer pa'ers like wa'er" et. al.
Slainte,
Calum.
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