Q: History and word origin of "saucer"?
Bramble
(Of course, we use mugs as well,
but is has nothing to do with the question I'm going to ask...)
Now I'm wondering when people started to use the 'saucer'.
Tea comes from China but surely saucer was not used in China?
And coffee? I have no idea.
And why is it called 'saucer'?
According to the dictionary I've got, the word 'saucer' comes
from Old French, meaning "dish for holding salt or sauce".
This is all the information I got, and I see no connection
between "the dish used with a cup" and "the salt/sauce holder".
Could any one enlighten me as to
(1) When people started to use the saucer with the cup?
And/or how it was introduced with tea/coffee?
(2) Detailed background (origin) for the word 'saucer'?
Any information would be appreciated. :-)
Yuriko
Alan Farrell
>When we serve tea or coffee, we usually use 'cup and saucer'.
>(Of course, we use mugs as well,
>but is has nothing to do with the question I'm going to ask...)
>Now I'm wondering when people started to use the 'saucer'.
>Tea comes from China but surely saucer was not used in China?
>And coffee? I have no idea.
>And why is it called 'saucer'?
>According to the dictionary I've got, the word 'saucer' comes
>from Old French, meaning "dish for holding salt or sauce".
>This is all the information I got, and I see no connection
>between "the dish used with a cup" and "the salt/sauce holder".
Here is a reference from Encyclopaedia Britannica :
TEA AND COFFEE SERVICE
set of vessels and implements for making and serving
tea and coffee, the items often of matched design. Elaborate 18th-century
examples had tea and coffee pots, a milk or cream jug, a pair of tea caddies,
a sugar bowl and pair of tongs, teaspoons and a small tray for them, a tea
strainer, and cups and saucers. All of these were normally placed on a tray,
while an urn or kettle on a separate stand provided hot water. The earliest
silver and pottery services to be designed as sets date from the early 18th
century, but surviving silver examples dating from before the late 18th
century are rare. During the 18th and 19th centuries, services were designed
to accompany what had become an important tea-drinking ritual and consequently
reached a high degree of artistic refinement.[ends]*
The drinking of tea and coffee became extremely fashionable in eighteenth
century England; indeed, Dr Johnson gave up the drinking of alcohol altogether
for several long stretches and devoted himself to his tea. However, it is not
at all clear that his writing improved overmuch thereby, or that his sentences
became any less serpentine. Some years ago I recall seeing his tea-spoons and
his cups, the latter quite unlike those that we use today, being small, rather
shallow and without a handle. I cannot now recall if there were accompanying
saucers.
I imagine that the 'saucer' (from the Old French word for a small bowl for
sauce by way of that universal flavouring, salt), evolved as a convenient
expedient for keeping clean the table top or its cloth. People who deal in
antiques, either by selling them or stealing them, would certainly know more.
Good wishes,
AF.
*Copyright 1994-1998 Encyclopaedia Britannica
Alan Farrell
>Tea comes from China but surely saucer was not used in China?
It has just occurred to me after posting that this is probably from where the
saucer did come: from China.
Consider : if you order Chinese tea in a Chinese restaurant it will be served
in the well-known small cups that are not so dissimilar from those of Samuel
Johnson. Unrelated to the cups, but as part of the table service in such
places, is a tiny shallow bowl(s) for the dipping sauce(s). Since tea-drinking
was a habit imported from the orient, and since the first 'china' services
were either imported from there or based upon copies of Oriental originals, it
is not unreasonable to extrapolate that a custom of standing one's tea cup
in the 'saucer' developed as a matter of course, in response to a practical
need. However, I can pretend to no expert knowledge in this matter, and what
we really need is a Chinese or Japanese person to tell us if, at table in
their country, it is the polite custom to rest their cup in the saucer.
AF.
Bill Wolfe
teaware. My guess, though I am out of my league here, is that the
cup/saucer combination came to Europe straight from China.
I can add that the use of the saucer in rural parts of the northern U.S.,
from the Great Lakes to the Maine coast, has been a matter of considerable
cultural controversy. Rural northerners used to be dedicated tea drinkers
(many still are). The olden custom was to pour small quantities of tea
from the cup to the saucer. The cooled tea might then be drunk straight
from the saucer or poured back into the cup to help cool down the remaining
contents. My grandmother invariably took tea from a cup and saucer and
regularly resorted to this custom, sipping tea from her saucer as though it
were the most normal and proper thing in the world..
On the other hand, several generations of more "cultivated" persons worked
assiduously to stamp this customt out. A cliche of northern Vermont and
northeastern New York is the old farmer who waits for his wife to leave the
room before "saucering" his tea.
The practice applies to other hot beverages as well. A colleague and
neighbor tells a story of his grandmother, sitting in a Wisconsin trian
station in the 1920s (I swear this story was told to me as true). She had
just bought a cup of coffee, scalding hot, when her train pulled in,
unloading and loading in a remarkably rapid and efficient manner.
Stryrofoam had yet to be invented, and even paper cups were not in use, so
the lady's options were to walk away from her coffee or burn her mouth
trying to drink it in a hurry. A helpful gentleman noticed her predicament
and came to her rescue:
"Here, lady, take mine. It's already been saucered and blowed."
Bramble wrote in message <7645qe$i7e$1...@news01di.so-net.ne.jp>...
>When we serve tea or coffee, we usually use 'cup and saucer'.
>(Of course, we use mugs as well,
>but is has nothing to do with the question I'm going to ask...)
>Now I'm wondering when people started to use the 'saucer'.
>Tea comes from China but surely saucer was not used in China?
>And coffee? I have no idea.
>And why is it called 'saucer'?
>
>According to the dictionary I've got, the word 'saucer' comes
>from Old French, meaning "dish for holding salt or sauce".
>This is all the information I got, and I see no connection
>between "the dish used with a cup" and "the salt/sauce holder".
>
kluc
>
> It has just occurred to me after posting that this is probably from where the
> saucer did come: from China.
> we really need is a Chinese or Japanese person to tell us if, at table in
> their country, it is the polite custom to rest their cup in the saucer.
>
>
I'm from Japan, and, yes, Japanese tea cups without handles do usually have wooden saucers. The
small cups have saucers, but, the bigger ones that you get at Sushi restaurants called "yunomi"
do not come with saucers.
would love to elborate, but, I must go to work now. If you have any questions feel free to
email me.
k luc
Yoshiro Shibasaki
>
> In article <7645qe$i7e$1...@news01di.so-net.ne.jp> "Bramble" <bra...@jc4.so-net.ne.jp> writes:
> (clipped)
>
> saucer did come: from China.
>
> in the well-known small cups that are not so dissimilar from those of Samuel
> Johnson. Unrelated to the cups, but as part of the table service in such
> places, is a tiny shallow bowl(s) for the dipping sauce(s). Since tea-drinking
> was a habit imported from the orient, and since the first 'china' services
> were either imported from there or based upon copies of Oriental originals, it
> is not unreasonable to extrapolate that a custom of standing one's tea cup
> in the 'saucer' developed as a matter of course, in response to a practical
> we really need is a Chinese or Japanese person to tell us if, at table in
> their country, it is the polite custom to rest their cup in the saucer.
The original question was from a Japanese person as far as I can see
from her name :)
In Japan, a decent set of tea service (chawan) normally has a wooden
"saucer" (and a lid) with it. But tea "mugs" (Yunomi) for daily use has
no saucer.
BTW, do you know how much the capacity of the (western) saucer is? You
can try pouring water in the cup to the usual height of serving. Then
carefully pour it into the matching saucer. If it is an authentic set of
cup and saucer, the saucer must be able to contain the full cup of tea!
Yoshi
--
芝崎 芳朗 Yoshiro Shibasaki
Edinburgh, Scotland
Technical translator (biomedical sciences):
English, German, Danish -> Japanese (Japanese -> English)
Bryan Siegfried
> Alan Farrell wrote:
<bra...@jc4.so-net.ne.jp> writes:
> > (clipped)
> > >Tea comes from China but surely saucer was not used in China?
> > >And why is it called 'saucer'?
> > It has just occurred to me after posting that this is probably from where the
> > saucer did come: from China.
> >
In India, tea is often served by roadside vendors with little cups and
saucers. People pour the hot tea (or coffee, served the same way in
South India)into the saucer to let it cool as they sip it. I can't
remember where I read this, but I *think* that the Tibetans and
Mongolians take their tea in a similar way. Somehow I doubt this
usage is the root of the saucer under my cup right now. Perhaps
saucers have developed independently at different times?
Bryan
rich...@tig.com.au
Just for the record, the Oxford English Dictionary gives references back to
the 14th century for the meaning of 'saucer' as sauce holder.
The earliest record of the word's transference to a 'cup and saucer' is 1702,
when a diarist visited a pottery in England.
When was the first china imported into Europe?
Richard Wright
Bill Wolfe wrote:
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Bryan Siegfried
"The first tea wares used in Europe arrived from China with the early
cargoes of tea in the mid-seventeenth century and it was at this time
that the word 'china' entered the english language to denote all the
dishes needed for serving tea and other forms of refreshment."
"Early tea bowls were handleless and tiny, hlding only two or three
tablespoons of tea. They were usually 2 inches high and slightly
larges at the diameter. Between the 1650's and the 1750's the bowl
became bigger and was referred to as a 'dish' of tea rather than a
cup. Designs for teacup decoration were sometimes sent to China,
whilst some chinese porcelaiun was decorated at the English pottery.
The handle was eventually shaped from the english posset cup. Chinese
potters had not originally made saucers for the little bowls but these
began to appear and became a standard part of tea equipage. In the
eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, these were much deeeper and were,
in fact, used for drinking from, the hot tea being tipped into them
from these cups."
Thought it would clear up some confusion. Bill's contribution
certainly is a lot more interesting, though =)
Bryan
=)
lp...@edutech.org
some point common enough that "cup plates" were an additional piece of table
service. The cup plate was to place the actual cup on while drinking from
the saucer. It was the cup plate in these instances rather then the saucer
that would prevent stains or drips onto the table linen.
MMario
Bramble
and got many interesting replies/information from each group.
My question came when I was talking with one of my e-mail friend
about tea and she said she wondered why saucer is not called dish but
saucer....
Well, this question turned out to be far more interesting than I expected.
I'd like to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to those who
posted their
answers here as well as to those who sent me information by e-mail.
My 1999 be a great year for you all!!
Yuriko
Geeta Bharathan
: In India, tea is often served by roadside vendors with little cups and
: saucers. People pour the hot tea (or coffee, served the same way in
: South India)into the saucer to let it cool as they sip it. I can't
: remember where I read this, but I *think* that the Tibetans and
: Mongolians take their tea in a similar way. Somehow I doubt this
: usage is the root of the saucer under my cup right now. Perhaps
: saucers have developed independently at different times?
I don't know about Tibet and Mongolia; but supposedly the British
introduced tea (and tea drinking..?) into much of India. Very likely,
Porcelein cups and saucers accompanied this. Which would imply that the
saucer (under the cup or not) has the same root in the Western world and
in much of the Indian subcontinent.
--Geeta
Bryan Siegfried
> I don't know about Tibet and Mongolia; but supposedly the British
> introduced tea (and tea drinking..?) into much of India. Very likely,
> Porcelein cups and saucers accompanied this. Which would imply that the
> saucer (under the cup or not) has the same root in the Western world and
> in much of the Indian subcontinent.
This is very true for India in general. In Assam, people were
supposedly already making some sort of a tea from the tea which grew
there wild.
Assam is of course not exactly the mainstream of India. Many of
the "freedom fighters" in the area would insist they are not Indian
at all.
Even in rather nice households, Indians tend to prefer stainless
steel to porcelain. Saucers are pretty important with stainless
steel,
if just because of heat conduction. The tradition of the afternoon
tea
break (at least in Bangalore!) would make me agree with you.
--
Bryan Siegfried IU School of Medicine
PL-I, Med-Peds drsie...@hotmail.com
"You cannot depend on your eyes if your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain
Geeta Bharathan
: Geeta Bharathan wrote:
: > I don't know about Tibet and Mongolia; but supposedly the British
: > introduced tea (and tea drinking..?) into much of India.
: This is very true for India in general. In Assam, people were
: supposedly already making some sort of a tea from the tea which grew
: there wild.
I've always thought this must be true (that's why the escape clause
above). Do you know of documented evidence of this and how far west in
this part of India the habit had spread before the British?
Taking this further back into the past--what do we know the the origin of
the habit in China? That is, did tea-drinking originate in this (Assam)
region of the Himalayas?
--Geeta
Alan Farrell
>Bryan Siegfried (drsie...@hotmail.com) wrote:
I claim no specialist knowledge of tea, altho' I drink both green tea (for all
those antioxidents), and sometimes a good quality Earl Grey blend after a
lunch at which the 'wines were too various'. However, the Encyclopaedia
Britannica gives several references for tea, of which the following is the
first :
HISTORY OF THE TEA TRADE
According to legend tea has been known in China since about 2700 BC.
For millennia it was a medicinal beverage obtained by boiling fresh leaves in
water, but around the 3rd century AD it became a daily drink, and tea
cultivation and processing began. The first published account of methods of
planting, processing, and drinking came in AD 350. Around 800 the first seeds
were brought to Japan, where cultivation became established by the 13th
century. Chinese from Amoy brought tea cultivation to the island of Formosa
(Taiwan) in 1810. Tea cultivation in Java began under the Dutch, who brought
seeds from Japan in 1826 and seeds, workers, and implements from China in
1833.
In 1824 tea plants were discovered in the hills along the frontier between
Burma and the Indian state of Assam. The British introduced tea culture into
India in 1836 and into Ceylon (Sri Lanka) in 1867. At first they used seeds
from China, but later seeds from the Assam plant were used.
The Dutch East India Company carried the first consignment of China
tea to Europe in 1610. In 1669 the English East India Company brought China
tea from ports in Java to the London market. Later, teas grown on British
estates in India and Ceylon reached Mincing Lane, the centre of the tea trade
in London. By the late 19th and early 20th centuries, tea growing had spread
to Russian Georgia, Sumatra, and Iran and extended to non-Asian countries such
as Natal, Malawi, Uganda, Kenya, Congo, Tanzania, and Mozambique in Africa, to
Argentina, Brazil, and Peru in South America, and to Queensland in
Australia.(ends)**
Perhaps this will generate some more discussion about a truly fascinating
subject, even to me.
AF.
**Copyright 1994-1998 Encyclopaedia Britannica
Kerry Dye
Farrell) wrote:
>In article <3693c...@news.ic.sunysb.edu> ge...@life.cc.sunysb.edu (Geeta Bharathan) writes:
>
>>Bryan Siegfried (drsie...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>
>>: Geeta Bharathan wrote:
>>: > I don't know about Tibet and Mongolia; but supposedly the British
>>: > introduced tea (and tea drinking..?) into much of India.
>
>>: This is very true for India in general. In Assam, people were
>>: supposedly already making some sort of a tea from the tea which grew
>>: there wild.
>
>However, the Encyclopaedia Britannica gives several references for tea,
>of which the following is the
>first :
>
>
>In 1824 tea plants were discovered in the hills along the frontier between
>Burma and the Indian state of Assam. The British introduced tea culture into
>India in 1836 and into Ceylon (Sri Lanka) in 1867. At first they used seeds
>from China, but later seeds from the Assam plant were used.
>
That sounds about right. The Chinese seeds didn't work very well, so
they switched to the local variety.
There were diplomatic problems with China which caused the British to
look elsewhere for tea sources, not to mention that it was much
cheaper sourced from one of their colonies!
--
Kerry Dye
Alchemy Interactive
www.alchemy-interactive.co.uk
Martin Evans
interactive.co.uk> writes
>There were diplomatic problems with China which caused the British to
>look elsewhere for tea sources, not to mention that it was much
>cheaper sourced from one of their colonies!
That'll be the Opium Wars then - where GB had a war with China over
the right to sell them opium in exchange for tea. Strangely, China
didn't really want the opium specially grown for them in Imperial India.
As I remember, that's when Indian opium growers were switched to tea,
GB got Hong-Kong, and China got nothing. Or have I got his wrong as it's
all from memory?
--
Martin Evans of Strawberry Hill and Central London
(Remove anti-spam in address when replying)