Columbine killer on psych drugs
Mommo
From the L.A. Times:
"Among the leads is the medical problem cited by the Marines Corps when it
rejected Harris as a recruit just five days before the attack. Harris was
rejected because he had been taking the antidepressant drug Luvox, The New
York Times reported today, citing a Defense Department source. Luvox is
often used to treat obsessive-compulsive disorder in children and
adolescents."
As a friend of mine said when she heard of the murders.. "It's not IF psych
drugs were involved. It's how much and what kind. It's not WAS HE seeing a
psychiatrist, but WHO was he seeing?"
These drugs are dangerous, and parents need to research very, very carefully
before submitting their children to them!
--Jane
Dorothy Sacks
Mommo wrote in message <7gad5c$ndl$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
True for all drugs, but especially anything for mental and emotional
problems,
IMHO. The other factor here though is was this child taking his
medications
properly. With anti-depressants, people can omit dosages and think that
they
are all right, too.
Dorothy
Donna Metler
became a murderer because he was on psychiatric medication, or that the
medication didn't keep him from becoming a murderer? The idea that he was
depressed, and had just suffered an emotional loss on top of it, seems to imply
that his depression might have played a role, and that if anything he needed
more intervention-not less. I would be interested in knowing if he was recieving
the psychiatric counseling which should accompany any psychotropic drug, and
what monitoring was being done.
Noonetwo
>Psychiatrists are Doctors of psychiatric medicine. This means all they do is
>prescribe drugs. No counselling. No advice on side effects - ie they can
>make you psychotic. No monitoring of side effects.
Yes they do councelling, they also discuss side effects of medication, and yes
they even order lab testing prior to and while on medication when indicated.
If you know of a psychiatrist who works in the fashion you describe then they
must be a duck. You know the saying, if it walks like a duck, QUAKS like a
duck, then the doc is a duck.
>Odds on he didn't need the drugs in the first place.
Though we will never know, but since it seems the medication was to be used for
OCD, and he was still behaving in such a way then it wasn't working for him.
Either the kid recently started the med, or people around dropped the ball in
not observing that it wasn't working.
Dorothy Sacks
For Christ's Sake wrote in message <7gajct$klu$1...@news4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
>Donna Metler wrote in message <3728CBA6...@bellsouth.net>...
>
>snip
>
> I would be interested in knowing if he was recieving
> the psychiatric counseling which should accompany any psychotropic drug,
> and what monitoring was being done.
>
>
>
>OINK OINK OINK WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
>
>No that was just me making an impression of one.
>
>Psychiatrists are Doctors of psychiatric medicine. This means all they do
is
>prescribe drugs. No counselling. No advice on side effects - ie they can
>make you psychotic. No monitoring of side effects.
>
>
>
Maybe, but you cannot know that without more facts. And some psychiatrists
do use other methods in addition to or even instead of drug therapy.
Psychiatry is a speciality within medicine, it is true. So psychiatrists
can
prescibe drugs, but not all do and some use drugs with other therapies to
help patients.
Drugs do help depression in certain cases. If this young man was depressed
and on pyschotropic drugs, the prescription and dosages should have been
closely monitored and he should have had other help if needed.
Dorothy
<snip>
Mommo
Donna Metler wrote ...
>Uh, there might be a problem with cause and effect here-are you implying
that he
>became a murderer because he was on psychiatric medication, or that the
>medication didn't keep him from becoming a murderer?
Well, considering that many of these drugs have suicide as a side effect...
There is no doubt in my mind that the drugs are ineffective. But when a
person who has never had any trouble with depression, suicidal thoughts,
etc., goes on a drug like Prozac, for instance, and suddenly starts planning
to murder her family and kill herself...(which happened to an acquaintance's
mother when she took Prozac for weight loss), well, there is a problem with
that drug, IMO.
The drug companies, of course, hide behind the excuse that the person would
have done it anyway... but a hundred years ago, children didn't go shoot up
the schoolyard.
Now, it's happening, and in case after case, the murderer has been on
psychiatric drugs...
--Jane
Donna Metler
psychologist, Licenced Clinical Social Worker or someone similar), for
counseling, and ideally there should be some connection between the prescribing
physician or psychiatrist and the counselor. Even if the problem is purely
physiochemical, a counselor can help a person develop a plan to stay stable-just
like with any other chronic medical condition. There should certainly be medical
follow-ups done, especially on the newer drugs, which work directly on the brain
chemistry, because a small variation can have significant effects (speaking as
someone who has a seizure disorder related to levels of seratonin-I take a SSRI
anti-depressant as well as anti-convulsants to keep the levels at optimum, and
to do this requires frequent bloodwork and dosage changes). While SSRI's and
other antidepressants can be very helpful for someone with biochemical
depression (which is only worsened by stresses, and the abuse the Columbine
shooters suffered causes enormous stress), prescribing them without monitoring,
especially in a teenager where hormone levels change almost daily, is tantamount
to medical malpractice.
We will never know whether the medication was correctly prescribed or not. It is
obvious, though, that it did not function correctly, given the student's
behavior. I suspect that any intervention, short of complete removal from the
situation into a more supportive one, would not solve the problem, and therefore
would have had a risk of the reaction which ultimately happened.
For Christ's Sake wrote:
> Donna Metler wrote in message <3728CBA6...@bellsouth.net>...
>
> snip
>
> I would be interested in knowing if he was recieving
> >the psychiatric counseling which should accompany any psychotropic drug,
> and
> >what monitoring was being done.
>
> Pigs might fly
>
> OINK OINK OINK WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!
>
> No that was just me making an impression of one.
>
> Psychiatrists are Doctors of psychiatric medicine. This means all they do is
> prescribe drugs. No counselling. No advice on side effects - ie they can
> make you psychotic. No monitoring of side effects.
>
> Odds on he didn't need the drugs in the first place.
>
> John
>
> PLEASE REPLY TO THE NEWSGROUP ONLY
Donna Metler
Mommo wrote:
> Donna Metler wrote ...
> >Uh, there might be a problem with cause and effect here-are you implying
> that he
> >became a murderer because he was on psychiatric medication, or that the
> >medication didn't keep him from becoming a murderer?
>
> Well, considering that many of these drugs have suicide as a side effect...
>
> There is no doubt in my mind that the drugs are ineffective. But when a
> person who has never had any trouble with depression, suicidal thoughts,
> etc., goes on a drug like Prozac, for instance, and suddenly starts planning
> to murder her family and kill herself...(which happened to an acquaintance's
> mother when she took Prozac for weight loss), well, there is a problem with
> that drug, IMO.
SSRI's, like prozac, often have weight gain as a side effect-so this sounds like
a very poor prescription. They should never be used lightly-brain chemistry is
sensitive (I take medication to regulate mine, due to a seizure disorder
triggered by chemical imbalance, so I'm pretty current on the literature)
For a person who is truly depressed, suicide is always a chicken and the egg
situation-is the person suicidal because of the depression, or as a side effect.
Unless the person was suicidal before going on the medication, it's hard to be
sure. A person who does not have the physiological symptoms (which can be
tested, via blood work and neurological testing) should NOT be on the drugs.
>
>
> The drug companies, of course, hide behind the excuse that the person would
> have done it anyway... but a hundred years ago, children didn't go shoot up
> the schoolyard.
>
> Now, it's happening, and in case after case, the murderer has been on
> psychiatric drugs...
>
> --Jane
But many, many people take these medications, and don't commit murders, and not
all murderers are on psychotropic medication. In addition, many people who are
on psychotropic medication are stable, until they decide they're doing fine and
go off it without medical advice. This withdrawal can, and often does, have
deadly side effects.
Thank you for posting the article. It is an interesting data point, and I would
be very interested in knowing the treatment regimen and degree of compliance of
this individual.
Mommo
Ron McDermott wrote in message
<87XdtVqF0GQ7-p...@slip-32-100-114-95.ny.us.ibm.net>...
>On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:07:28, "Mommo"
><davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Now, it's happening, and in case after case, the murderer has been on
>> psychiatric drugs...
>
>difficulties and becoming a murderer? Seems to me that this is a
>VERY likely scenario. How surprising should it be, then, to find that
>many are on drugs of one kind or another? The implication that the
>drugs are somehow responsible is questionable.
Well, have mental difficulties ALWAYS existed for people?
Did school shootings occur with this frequency a hundred years ago, before
psychotropic drugging of children? No.
It's happening now, and one for one these school shootings have a common
thread... psychotropic drugs and psychiatric counseling.
Scott Goehring
Mommo> These drugs are dangerous, and parents need to research very,
Mommo> very carefully before submitting their children to them!
The previous message might as well have been brought to you by the
Citizens Commission on Human Rights, a front group for the Church of
Scientology, which handed out recruitment brochures at the funerals
and memorial services in Littleton last week. Note that the poster
uses Earthlink, which is known to have strong relations with the
Church of Scientology (Earthlink's founder, Sky Dayton, went to
Scientology schools through high school).
--
"[The government] has no ... authority to license one side of a debate to
fight freestyle, while requiring the other to follow Marquis of Queensberry
rules." -- R.A.V. v. St. Paul, Minn., 505 U.S. 377, 392 (1992).
Ron McDermott
Ron McDermott
<davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ron McDermott wrote in message
> <87XdtVqF0GQ7-p...@slip-32-100-114-95.ny.us.ibm.net>...
> Well, have mental difficulties ALWAYS existed for people?
Probably.. Have they been consistent as to frequency in the
population? Probably not. Overcrowding, for example, seems to
impact on this. Is there a relationship between violence and
single parent homes? It wouldn't surprise me if there was, and
these are much more prevelent than in years gone by. How
about percentage of "poor" families in the population? Numbers
of unemployed (and unemployable)? Demographics of city
dwellers consistent over time? Not bloody likely. Too may things
have changed to attribute problems solely to a SINGLE cause.
> Did school shootings occur with this frequency a hundred years ago, before
> psychotropic drugging of children? No.
Has anything ELSE changed in the last hundred years OTHER
than psychotropic drugs? Might some of these OTHER changes
have an impact as well? In the absence of national communication,
might such disasters have been overlooked to a greater extent in
bygone days? Were there OTHER types of violence (besides
that promulgated by kids) in those bygone days?
Julie A. Pascal
Mommo wrote:
(...)
> Well, have mental difficulties ALWAYS existed for people?
Yes.
> Did school shootings occur with this frequency a hundred years ago, before
> psychotropic drugging of children? No.
Per capita? I wouldn't be surprised if they did. You have no way
of knowing that they didn't. Granted, "children" the age of
these two would likely not have been in school any longer and
their crime would have been considered right along with the adult
crazies.
I'm on a mailing list where someone posted a news clip from
1927 where a guy blew up a bunch of school children with dynamite
and killed himself after.
And I think it was the Viking Egil who picked up an ax at the age
of seven or so and killed another child at a skating party.
Oh, my! Mental illness a thousand years ago! (Actually they
think they know what condition Egil had and it is characterized
by violent rages, among other things.)
> It's happening now, and one for one these school shootings have a common
> thread... psychotropic drugs and psychiatric counseling.
As someone else said... this is not enough to decide that the
counseling and the medication are the cause of the behavior. It
might be enough to want to look into it further but not enough
to make a conclusion. The counseling and medication may indicate
nothing more than the fact that the killers were unbalanced
enough that people noticed.
+Julie
Mommo
Ron McDermott wrote ...
>
>Has anything ELSE changed in the last hundred years OTHER
>than psychotropic drugs? Might some of these OTHER changes
>have an impact as well? In the absence of national communication,
>might such disasters have been overlooked to a greater extent in
>bygone days? Were there OTHER types of violence (besides
>that promulgated by kids) in those bygone days?
It's just that the psych drugging is so PREDICTABLE. As soon as I heard of
the Columbine murders, I was certain psych drugs were involved....
And, they were.
When I heard of Bryn and Phil Hartmans' murder/suicide, I knew psych drugs
had to be involved...
And, they were.
It's not... oh, these people were undiagnosed and it's too bad no
psychiatrist got to them first. It's - a psychiatrist got to them BEFORE
they committed murder.
These guys are supposed to be curing us.
I remember reading in the paper years ago about Hurricane Andrew and how the
Dade County school system addressed this. The paper explained that the
school system added 80 mental health personnel to their staff to handle the
crisis. Despite this intervention, however, students ranging in age from 8
to 11 suddenly started attempting suicide.
My thought is this: children do not attempt suicide after natural disasters.
Children DO attempt suicide after contact with psychiatrists and psychiatric
medications. (Witness the Ritalin suicides.)
--Jane
Tim and Christine Williams
Drugs that take away a persons reasoning abilities could most certainly
influence their behaviour. How many people without mental problems have
done something irresponsible and out of character under the influence of
drugs or alcohol.
--
Christine Williams
Housewife & Mother extraordinare
Mommo
Ron McDermott wrote in message
>On Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:26:02, "Tim and Christine Williams"
><timc...@odyssey.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
>> Why should the thought that drugs might be responsible be questionable.
>> Drugs that take away a persons reasoning abilities could most certainly
>> influence their behaviour. How many people without mental problems have
>> done something irresponsible and out of character under the influence of
>> drugs or alcohol.
>
>evidence indicates otherwise. Much of what passes for evidence
>in the eyes of some people may be nothing more than coincidence
>or weak correlation. An extreme example of my point might be the
>following "logic":
>
>Most violent acts occur during daylight hours.
>The sun is "up" during those times.
>Ergo, the sun is the cause of those violent acts.
>
>Or if you don't care for that one, I can find one even MORE
>ridiculous:
>
>Most violent acts occur after a period of sleep.
>Ergo, sleep causes violent acts.
>
>Now it MAY be that psychotropic drugs have negative effects.
>Do they also have positive effects? Do they reduce the number
>of people who are unable to function? At what point do we
>tolerate some negative effects in order to achieve a larger
>number of POSITIVE effects? Is this perceived relationship
>anything more than coincidence? What percentage of users
>display negative effects? How does that compare to the
>percentage for the population as a whole? There are any number
>of questions which have to be addressed before a statement
>becomes unquestioned.
Prozac (close cousin to Luvox, the drug one of the Columbine killers had
been taking) has received more reports of adverse effects than any drug in
the history of the voluntary reporting system for adverse affects set up by
the FDA.
Eli Lilly, maker of Prozac, lied when seeking approval to make and sell this
drug in the U.S. They lied about the side effects of the drug when tested on
European people.
I remember a thread on Prodigy, years ago -- 17 people on the thread had
either taken Prozac themselves or had a close relative who had. 16 of those
people had either become homicidal or suicidal. All 16 posters said, "Well,
it didn't work for me (my mother, my sister...), but I know it works for
most people..."
Interesting. Only one of the 17 didn't have a horror story to tell regarding
the drug.
--Jane
Mommo
JN wrote in message <01be936e$d1a527e0$86ec8dcc@marvin>...
>
>
>Mommo <davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> wrote in article
><7gc491$c72$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>teaching programs. I do know most of the information brought to our school
>came with Littleton Colorado printed on the bottom of some of the
>pages...this was for a stupid, OBE very ridiculous program being brought
>into our school by MCREL an educational laboratory experimenting with
>school improvements. I don't know if Columbine high school was where the
>program was tested at...but come to think of it we saw some of this same
>behavior in our students within months of working the program ideas into
>the curriculum. Hmmmmmm....kind of makes me wonder?
>
Yes. Parents were outraged when OBE was introduced, so the administrators
kept the program but called it something else.
I read that in 1991, after a death education class, a girl from Columbine
attempted (succeeded...?) suicide.
I'd say the experiment hasn't worked ... knock off the experimental garbage
and get back to academics.
--Jane
Mommo
Scott Goehring wrote in message ...
>"Mommo" == Mommo <davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> writes:
>
>Mommo> These drugs are dangerous, and parents need to research very,
>Mommo> very carefully before submitting their children to them!
>
>The previous message might as well have been brought to you by the
>Citizens Commission on Human Rights, a front group for the Church of
>Scientology, which handed out recruitment brochures at the funerals
>and memorial services in Littleton last week. Note that the poster
>uses Earthlink, which is known to have strong relations with the
>Church of Scientology (Earthlink's founder, Sky Dayton, went to
>Scientology schools through high school).
Sorry... I got my data from the L.A. Times. (Is L.A. Times a Scientology
organization...?)
Heather Choe
with no information other than he had seen someone about his mental
problems? WE know practically NOTHING about what their problem was,
other than what the letter said (where there was no mention about
durgs, I believe). Speculation, that's all this whole thing is, and
this speculation could do alot of damage to someone who MIGHT actually
benefit from seeking help. Sure, psych drugs are not for everyone,
just like penecillin isn't for everybody. Penecillin might work for
me, but it would kill my brother if he took it. I know someone who is
on Zoloft and benefits from it emmensely, I also know someone who it
did nothing for (no psychotic effects either, might I add). NOTHING is
good for everybody, except maybe a little understanding.
Some people do bad things, and it's all we hear about day after day
after day. Some people do some good things, we *might* hear about it,
but do we even remember it a week later. Not to say that what happened
wasn't horrendous, because of course it was, but one bad person on a
drug that he may or may not have been taking correctly does not
necessarily make a *bad drug*. I'm more upset with his parents and
whatever psychiatric professional he saw because they didn't seem to
follow up on him after he started "therapy". I'm more upset that they
didn't take a look at him and say, "hey, this doesn't seem to be
helping him, now what else can we do to try to help? " The one thing
that those people that I DO know who were taking these drugs is that
they had someone FOLLOWING UP on what was given, they were not just
"tossed to the wind, and we hope that it works, but don't bother
telling us if it does or not."
I also knew someone who was on Ritalin for awhile. But the one thing
that was done was FOLLOW UP. He was lucky enough to have a doctor who
did not see it as a cure all (it's not) but as a tool to get what they
all wanted in the end, for him to not be on any drugs and to be able
to cope on his own. It worked great for him, he's off it now, but it
served a purpose. It was not a drug that you take and then think that
everything is solved.
Yes, there are many people out there who some doctor or parent threw
ritalin at and hoped they would go away. Yes, there are many people
who ritalin does not help and who may actually harm. But where is the
follow up? I'm sick of people blaming the *drugs* when it's the bad
health professionals who are the one's who should be looked at! FOR
GOODNESS SAKES! IF RITALIN (OR WHAT EVER THE TREATMENT IS) ISN'T
WORKING THEN TAKE THEM OFF IT AND FIND *SOMETHING* THAT DOES WORK!!!!
My sister in law almost died because some moron gave her penecillin
for tonsillitis, and when she got drastically sicker decided to just
give her more of it instead of recognising an allergic reaction. She
went into liver failure and it's only a miracle that she is still
alive. Do we say that penecillin shouldn't be used for tonsillitis or
for anything else, or do we look at the moron and ask how can we make
the medical profession more effective, the doctor and care givers
better informed and willing to admit that they don't know everything
about evey patient?
Sorry about the tirade. I don't think that I know everything, not by a
long shot. But I do know that you shouldn't blame the drugs, but the
people who are SUPPOSED to know how to use and prescribe them, you
shouldn't blame the car, you should blame the drunk driver or the
people who allow a habitual drunk to drive, you shouldn't blame the TV
itself, but the people who *should* be doing their best to help the
kids to make sense of what they see (and to decide to cull out the bad
on their own), and who aren't.
-Heather ( who is usually a very quiet person )
On 1 May 1999 04:43:41 GMT, rmc...@nospam.banet.net (Ron McDermott)
wrote:
-- Sang.
------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions are my own...
Heather Choe
Very well put. Thanks.
On 30 Apr 1999 23:41:11 GMT, "JN" <cu...@sd.cybernex.net> wrote:
>When can we all stop trying to figure out what triggered this attack. Can't
>we accept what the letter that one of the boys wrote said? They were angry
>and resentful to a select group of students. They wanted to punish those
>that allowed the harrassment to go on and on over time. They wanted to pay
>back all those that looked the other way when they were being harrassed and
>picked on unmercifully AT SCHOOL. They stated the reasons themselves.
>
>The problem here and always has been, is that adults, especially those in
>the schools, just don't want to face that WE, yes WE, may have to take
>responsibility for these incidents. We want to find someone or something to
>blame so we don't have to face that collectively WE are ultimately
>responsible for what our young people are and what they do.
>
>We send our kids to schools that we know are inadequate, overcrowded, and
>place our children in the hands of school authorities we know don't act
>fairly. WE, adults, look the other way at school when children we don't
>know or maybe don't like are picked on by other students, WE don't insist
>that every child regardless of who they are, heros, academic wizzards,
>sports stars, "good kids", bad kids, indifferent kids, we DO NOT insist
>that every child get fair treatment in school (unless our own child is
>affected), WE don't insist that administration follow a code of ethics when
>dealing with our children and when enforcing school rules.
>
>Would you send your child out to play in the busy road,knowing they might
>get hit by a car? NO of course not...so why do we allow our schools to
>continue to function the way they have been functioning the last many
>years.
>
>Take them out of any school that is unsafe, poorly managed, or just doesn't
>put the students FIRST. Or...build something better together.
>
>JN
JN
Mommo <davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> wrote in article
<7gfbuo$dir$1...@holly.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
Yes they probably called it performance education or mastery learning or
any number of other names they change to continue to use a half baked idea
in the classrooms that wastes student and teacher time and is actually a
social agenda. MCRELs mission as stated on some of their is " to gather
like minded individuals together to make a social change through
education". This is not word for word but the basic idea.
>
> I read that in 1991, after a death education class, a girl from Columbine
> attempted (succeeded...?) suicide.
Yes the social programs have mixed up a whole lot of kids over the past
many years. It would not surprise me to find out the these two boys had
been in some kind of pychological experimental program sometime in the past
few years either through counseling or some other school program.
>
> I'd say the experiment hasn't worked ... knock off the experimental
garbage
> and get back to academics.
>
> --Jane
>
I would say the experiment has worked very well for what it is intended to
do...that is to test out at what point and which programs we can use to
cause change and control to a whole generation through public education. It
is ironic that when you look at the research which was done through the
Effective Schools program which identified the common factors of effective
schools.....we discovered that everything in the program brought into our
school, the one that had Littleton written on it, was the opposite of the
findings that showed what could make an Effective school.
JN
Ron McDermott
<davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ron McDermott wrote in message
> <87XdtVqF0GQ7-p...@slip166-72-232-185.ny.us.ibm.net>...
> Prozac (close cousin to Luvox, the drug one of the Columbine killers had
> been taking) has received more reports of adverse effects than any drug in
> the history of the voluntary reporting system for adverse affects set up by
> the FDA.
Firstly, apparently no drugs were found in their bodies - strike one.
Secondly, while prozac may have "received more negative reports",
it may ALSO be more widely prescribed! Without more specific
information, the mere fact of "more reports" is meaningless. Not a
full "strike" here, but a possible one.
> I remember a thread on Prodigy, years ago -- 17 people on the thread had
> either taken Prozac themselves or had a close relative who had. 16 of those
> people had either become homicidal or suicidal. All 16 posters said, "Well,
> it didn't work for me (my mother, my sister...), but I know it works for
> most people..."
Anecdotal data from a nonscientific poll of an unknown sample.
Totally useless for drawing a conclusion. Strike two (or three).
> Interesting. Only one of the 17 didn't have a horror story to tell regarding
> the drug.
Interesting yes; convincing no. Plus this really has nothing to do
with THIS case. You're convinced that drugs "caused" this, others
are convinced that it was the Internet, tv, harassment, or, for all
I know, demonic possession. Interesting as a departure point for
conjecture, but little else.
Mommo
Ron McDermott wrote
>Firstly, apparently no drugs were found in their bodies - strike one.
Hmmm... I wonder what the heck the L.A. Times was talking about...
Probably a HISTORY of psychiatric drugging....?
You don't imagine that the moment someone stops TAKING a drug it stops
AFFECTING him, do you?
These drugs DO stay in the body -- and they do continue to affect a person.
Not only that, but when the drugs are suddenly stopped, there can be huge
problems. Such as 9 year old children committing suicide when they stop
taking Ritalin. (It's highly addictive.)
Per the L.A. Times:
"Officials investigating the Columbine High School massacre confirmed
Wednesday that five days before he opened fire on his classmates, Eric
Harris was informed by the Marine Corps that he was disqualified from
enlisting because of a medical condition.
Harris, whose father is a retired Air Force pilot, already had talked with
recruiters and done well. In a follow-up interview at the Harris home on
April 15, authorities said, the teen's parents disclosed to recruiters that
their son was taking psychiatric medication."
Now, I know the military will deny a person because he has taken Ritalin
after the age of 12 -- apparently other psychiatric drugs disqualify as
well.
>
>Secondly, while prozac may have "received more negative reports",
>it may ALSO be more widely prescribed! Without more specific
>information, the mere fact of "more reports" is meaningless. Not a
>full "strike" here, but a possible one.
>
>> I remember a thread on Prodigy, years ago -- 17 people on the thread had
>> either taken Prozac themselves or had a close relative who had. 16 of
those
>> people had either become homicidal or suicidal. All 16 posters said,
"Well,
>> it didn't work for me (my mother, my sister...), but I know it works for
>> most people..."
>
>Anecdotal data from a nonscientific poll of an unknown sample.
>Totally useless for drawing a conclusion. Strike two (or three).
>
Gee.. you're right. Real experiences of real people don't count.
I guess the fact that Prozac has received more adverse reports than any
other drug (and that within it's first six months of usage in the U.S.!) in
the history of the voluntary adverse affect reporting system means.. oh,
nothing. Anecdotal.
>> Interesting. Only one of the 17 didn't have a horror story to tell
regarding
>> the drug.
>
>Interesting yes; convincing no. Plus this really has nothing to do
>with THIS case. You're convinced that drugs "caused" this, others
>are convinced that it was the Internet, tv, harassment, or, for all
>I know, demonic possession. Interesting as a departure point for
>conjecture, but little else.
These drugs are known to cause this type of reaction. Look at all these guys
who go "postal" -- psych drugs. really. The next time something like this
happens, look at all the reports on it until the truth comes out.
I mean, it's weird. Two kids go shoot up a school, I say to my husband, "I
wonder what psych drugs they were on and what psychiatrist they were
seeing."
It's never -- oh, it's too bad no one ever took that person to a
psychiatrist.
--Jane
Scott Goehring
Tim> Why should the thought that drugs might be responsible be
Tim> questionable. Drugs that take away a persons reasoning abilities
Tim> could most certainly influence their behaviour. How many people
Tim> without mental problems have done something irresponsible and out
Tim> of character under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
Classic error of reasoning: since some drugs take away mental
competence, all do. This is, of course, bullshit; nobody would claim
that "drugs caused him to do it" if he had taken two Advil earlier
that day.
Mommo
Scott Goehring wrote in message ...
>
>Tim> Why should the thought that drugs might be responsible be
>Tim> questionable. Drugs that take away a persons reasoning abilities
>Tim> could most certainly influence their behaviour. How many people
>Tim> without mental problems have done something irresponsible and out
>Tim> of character under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
>
>Classic error of reasoning: since some drugs take away mental
>competence, all do. This is, of course, bullshit; nobody would claim
>that "drugs caused him to do it" if he had taken two Advil earlier
>that day.
>
I would have to say that if *I* took two Advil, goodness knows what I would
do... even that drug can be very harmful. I have a particularly terrible
reaction to it and as it wears off I get VERY suicidal and depressed. I
haven't taken it for years, ever since I realized WHERE this was coming
from, but I can tell you, I don't consider it perfectly harmless. I very
nearly ended my life a few times when I was taking it. (I had endometriosis
and was in pain -- and I became addicted to ibuprophen.)
But about the psychotropic drugs; they DO affect the mind. They aren't like
a simple penicillin pill. Their purpose is not to heal any portion of the
body, but to suppress behavioral and emotional SYMPTOMS. Nothing more.
--Jane
Scott Goehring
Mommo> (I had endometriosis and was in pain -- and I became addicted
Mommo> to ibuprophen.)
This just proves you're FOS. Ibuprofen isn't itself addictive. Your
problem is that you had chronic pain and had become psychologically
addicted to having it suppressed by the painkiller.
--
"The hard fact is that sometimes we must make decisions we do not like. We
make them because they are right, right in the sense that the law and the
Constitution compel the result."
-- Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397, 420 (1989) (J. Kennedy, concurring).
Donna Metler
Mommo wrote:
Older psychotropic drugs, yes. Newer ones, no. The newer ones, including prozac
and zoloft, actually change the chemistry within the brain. This is why they
should not be prescribed without a neurological/neuropsychological work-up and
monitoring, and it's also why going off of them suddenly is dangerous, because
the neurochemical levels crash. Very few of the drugs currently in use just
address symptoms-primarily tranquilizers.
Having said this, these drugs are extremely effective if a neurotransmitter
deficit exists, as in some forms of depression, some severe migraines, some
obsessive-compulsive disorders, and some bulimia cases. However, they are not a
magic bullet, any more than any other drug is. It takes some effort to find the
optimal dosage and right medication to address the cause of the symptoms, and
the environmental contributing factors also must be addressed for treatment to
be successful.
Mommo
Scott Goehring wrote in message ...
>
>Mommo> (I had endometriosis and was in pain -- and I became addicted
>Mommo> to ibuprophen.)
>
>This just proves you're FOS. Ibuprofen isn't itself addictive. Your
>problem is that you had chronic pain and had become psychologically
>addicted to having it suppressed by the painkiller.
oh, gee, you're so right.... Which is why, after not taking it for TWO
years, I took it for backpain.. was totally wired... and as it wore off I
was suicidal. After a second time of this, I realized what had caused all my
problems with "depression" years before... and I have stayed far, far away
from ibuprophen (and have not had a single episode of depression, with one
post-partum exception which was handled with vitamins.)
I don't consider it as much an addiction as a horrible reaction to the drug
itself. I had NO DESIRE to take it again, once I realized what it was
doing... it just caused a rotten reaction in me.
By the way, I've never had a problem with any other drug or alcohol...
regardless of chronic pain or no chronic pain.
Did you see 16 Candles? Remember the wedding scene, where the bride was
stumbling down the aisle, as if drunk? She was doped up on... Motrin!
Scott Goehring
Mommo> I don't consider it as much an addiction as a horrible reaction
Mommo> to the drug itself. I had NO DESIRE to take it again, once I
Mommo> realized what it was doing... it just caused a rotten reaction
Mommo> in me.
You must have majorly weird biochemistry, because I know lots of
people who take Advil in larger or smaller doses on a regular basis
and who have shown no symptoms of addiction or of depression.
Given that I've never heard ANYONE else report these symptoms with
Advil, I'd be inclined to suspect that your symptoms are not causal
with Advil, but instead coincidental with your use of Advil.
Mommo> Did you see 16 Candles? Remember the wedding scene, where the
Mommo> bride was stumbling down the aisle, as if drunk? She was doped
Mommo> up on... Motrin!
Oh, yeah, like movies are always 100% medically accurate.
--
"The Government has no aesthetic or property interest in protecting a mere
aggregation of stripes and stars for its own sake."
-- Kime v. United States, 459 U.S. 949, 953 (1982) (J. Brennan,
dissenting from denial of writ of certiorari).
Mommo
Scott Goehring wrote in message ...
>
>Mommo> I don't consider it as much an addiction as a horrible reaction
>Mommo> to the drug itself. I had NO DESIRE to take it again, once I
>Mommo> realized what it was doing... it just caused a rotten reaction
>Mommo> in me.
>
>You must have majorly weird biochemistry, because I know lots of
>people who take Advil in larger or smaller doses on a regular basis
>and who have shown no symptoms of addiction or of depression.
I took this drug several times a week for about four years and never knew
what it was doing to me. I just thought I was one of those people who was
always depressed.
These feelings *suddenly* went away when I discovered I was pregnant and
ceased using it. They didn't return until the two times I took ibuprophen
again, and it hit me with a vengeance! It was REALLY intense and REALLY
horrible, and the second time I was alone with my kids and didn't know what
would happen if I continued coming off the drug -- so I repeated the dosage
at 4 hour intervals until my husband came home and I could "come off" it
safely.
>
>Given that I've never heard ANYONE else report these symptoms with
>Advil, I'd be inclined to suspect that your symptoms are not causal
>with Advil, but instead coincidental with your use of Advil.
>
>Mommo> Did you see 16 Candles? Remember the wedding scene, where the
>Mommo> bride was stumbling down the aisle, as if drunk? She was doped
>Mommo> up on... Motrin!
>
>Oh, yeah, like movies are always 100% medically accurate.
Welp... you got a really good point there. But I know that when I finally
stopped taking the ibuprophen all the time, the two times I did take I felt
just like that woman looked in that movie! Very drugged and very weird and
"loopey".
Of course, when I was taking it continually, I never noticed this -- but
then I suppose it was in my body so often that I almost never felt really
*normal*, so I wouldn't have known what to compare it to.
--Jane
Mommo
"According to the manufacturer, Solvay, 4% of children and youth taking
Luvox developed mania during short-term controlled clinical trials. Mania is
a psychosis which can produce bizarre, grandiose, highly elaborated
destructive plans, including mass murder. ...
...Yet the risk will be even higher during long-term clinical use where
medical supervision, as in the case of Harris, is much more lax than in
controlled clinical trials. These drugs also produce irritability,
aggression or hostility, alienation, agitation, and loss of empathy.
Reports suggest that Eric Harris may have had a relatively good family life.
If so, it adds to the probability that he was suffering from a drug-induced
manic reaction caused by Luvox. The phenomenon of drug-induced manic
reactions caused by antidepressants is so widely recognized that it is
discussed several times in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental
Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association and many times in The
Physicians' Desk Reference. "
--Jane
Mommo
Heather Choe wrote in message <372d008a.161575423@news>...
>On Sun, 2 May 1999 16:30:14 -0700, "Mommo"
><davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Scott Goehring wrote in message ...
>>>"Mommo" == Mommo <davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> writes:
>>>
>
>
>>stumbling down the aisle, as if drunk? She was doped up on... Motrin!
>>
>>
>
>
>I don't doubt what you say, people can have very different reactions
>to the same drug. I took a certain antihistimine for an allergy
>problem and it worked just great for me: my husband took it and felt
>like sleeping for a week and a half.
>
>But just to put in about 16 candles. she took too many "muscle
>relaxants", they never used a name or an specifics. Just muscle
>relaxant.
>
>Heather.
No, I specifically remember she said "Motrin" -- that was back in the days
it was prescription-only.
Heather Choe
<davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Scott Goehring wrote in message ...
>>"Mommo" == Mommo <davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> writes:
>>
>Did you see 16 Candles? Remember the wedding scene, where the bride was
>stumbling down the aisle, as if drunk? She was doped up on... Motrin!
>
>
I don't doubt what you say, people can have very different reactions
to the same drug. I took a certain antihistimine for an allergy
problem and it worked just great for me: my husband took it and felt
like sleeping for a week and a half.
But just to put in about 16 candles. she took too many "muscle
relaxants", they never used a name or an specifics. Just muscle
relaxant.
Heather.
-- Sang.
Heather Choe
Now I'm second guessing myself. Guess I better hush up and go watch it
again...
Gulfy
to the same drug. I took a certain antihistimine for an allergy
problem and it worked just great for me: my husband took it and felt
like sleeping for a week and a half.>>
Another strange drug reaction: a relative was on an antifungal medication and
gradually became more and more paranoid until he had a psychotic break. The
doc then found that to be one of the side effects listed and took him off it
and the symptoms vanished.
Val
Jon Council
ok, so he was on Luvox. Obviously, the boy was disturbed or he wouldn't have
been prescribed it in the first place. Now, follow the logic here if you
can, if the boy wasn't disturbed, he wouldn't have been predisposed to
commit murder. Luvox was not the aggressor, the boy was. Please take your
Scientology opinions back to alt.flame.psych.
(the only people hwo use the term 'psych drugs' with real concern are
Scientologists)
Sciewntology has declard war on mental health professionals in general,
largely because Scientology views 'psychs' as *competition*, since "psychs"
are apt to point out exactly where Scientology's faults are
BTW, in Scientology, you're not allowed to "receive services" if you've ever
been treated by a mental health professional. What does Scientology do for
those who need mental health treatment? In a perfect ScientologyTM world,
what would happen to those? Would they end up like Lisa McPherson (dead)?
---
M.C.DiPietra <mdip...@earthlink.net>
"Hell, if you understood everything i say,
you'd be me!" -Miles Davis
----------
In article <7gad5c$ndl$1...@oak.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Mommo"
<davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> wrote:
>Well, it's official:
>
>
>From the L.A. Times:
>
>"Among the leads is the medical problem cited by the Marines Corps when it
>rejected Harris as a recruit just five days before the attack. Harris was
>rejected because he had been taking the antidepressant drug Luvox, The New
>York Times reported today, citing a Defense Department source. Luvox is
>often used to treat obsessive-compulsive disorder in children and
>adolescents."
>
>As a friend of mine said when she heard of the murders.. "It's not IF psych
>drugs were involved. It's how much and what kind. It's not WAS HE seeing a
>psychiatrist, but WHO was he seeing?"
>
>These drugs are dangerous, and parents need to research very, very carefully
>before submitting their children to them!
>
>--Jane
>
>
>
>
Mommo
Jon Council wrote ...
>
>
>ok, so he was on Luvox. Obviously, the boy was disturbed or he wouldn't
have
>been prescribed it in the first place. Now, follow the logic here if you
>can, if the boy wasn't disturbed, he wouldn't have been predisposed to
>commit murder. Luvox was not the aggressor, the boy was. Please take your
>Scientology opinions back to alt.flame.psych.
>
huh?... sorry, I got this information from http://www.breggin.com/luvox.html
... not any church at all!!
LOTS of people are concerned about the psychiatric influence and social
control experiments being conducted in public schools.
There are over a million homeschooled children in this country, MANY of them
homeschooled for this reason alone.
--Jane
The Hubbell's
Heather Choe wrote:
Donna Metler
the school had anything to do with prescribing Luvox-and in most districts, a
staff member cannot even suggest that a child should be evaluated professionally
(although I'm well aware that there are ways to pressure a parent covertly-I've
seen it done).
Now, if Harris was obsessive, which the fact that he had been planning this
activity for over a year and his behavior appears to indicate, some form of
treatment was indicated. As I have stated before, I don't feel that drugs should
ever be prescribed without supportive counseling and monitoring, and in this
case a change of setting (different school, preferrably one without the social
pressures), preferrably tried FIRST. However, his degree of behavior, based on
the reports I've seen leads me to believe (based on my abnormal psych) that
there were indeed indications of an obsessive disorder, which might be helped by
medication, as part of a treatment plan. Given the nature of Luvox (SSRI), as an
anti-depressant which works on neurochemistry, it is difficult to get an exact
dosage, especially on an adolescent, which could easily lead to a manic episode.
As the web site mentions, this is a known side effect. As such, it should have
been guarded against. The medical professionals, parents, the school, and the
student himself should have been made aware of this, and the signs should have
been recognized before they made it to an extreme reaction. If there were not
visible signs, I doubt that it was a true manic episode-I have been closely
involved with several persons with bipolar disorder, and it is impossible to
hide a manic state. In addition, by age 17, a person should have taken control
of his/her own health. The responsibility still lies on the individual-and the
medication does not change that.
In this case, I don't believe that medication was wrongly prescribed. Wrongly
monitored and used, perhaps. I feel that putting the blame on the medication is
simply looking for an easy answer. With a 4 % rate of manic episodes, 96% of
adolescents take this medication without such problems, and most manic episodes
do not end in mass murder.
sg
<davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> wrote:
I went to this page and noticed that its a page of an MD trying to sell
his books. I did like his page, and he seems to know his stuff. But,
while he may be an expert in psychiatric medicine, he never met Harris,
and is biased against psychiatric medicine, and hence cannot be neutral.
Although Harris was on Luvox, that doesn't meant the Luvox is what caused
his mania. It is more likely that he stopped taking the Luvox because it
was working (hence, he thought he didn't need it anymore). Many patients
on any type of depressant or anxiety medication do this. In stopping his
medication, his OCD re-appeared.
If your brain chemistry is screwed up, there's nothing wrong with taking
something to try and fix it. when you stop taking it, however, you could
run into trouble.
Bob LeChevalier
>These drugs DO stay in the body -- and they do continue to affect a person.
>Not only that, but when the drugs are suddenly stopped, there can be huge
>problems. Such as 9 year old children committing suicide when they stop
>taking Ritalin. (It's highly addictive.)
Ritalin is not in the least bit addictive. When a child is taken off
Ritalin, there is no need for weaning off the drug or any type of
anti-addictive measures, unlike other drugs. That is why it is used rather
than some others.
Ritalin is related chemically to amphetamimes, some of which are addictive.
>Per the L.A. Times:
>"Officials investigating the Columbine High School massacre confirmed
>Wednesday that five days before he opened fire on his classmates, Eric
>Harris was informed by the Marine Corps that he was disqualified from
>enlisting because of a medical condition.
>Harris, whose father is a retired Air Force pilot, already had talked with
>recruiters and done well. In a follow-up interview at the Harris home on
>April 15, authorities said, the teen's parents disclosed to recruiters that
>their son was taking psychiatric medication."
>Now, I know the military will deny a person because he has taken Ritalin
>after the age of 12 -- apparently other psychiatric drugs disqualify as
>well.
The reports are that he was disqualified because he LIED about not having
prescription medication. The USMC is not looking to take liars.
One of my friends is in the USAF taking prescription medicines far stronger
than Ritalin. He has some career limitations (cannot go overseas or take
certain kinds of positions, and these restrictions can reduce his chances
of promotion).
>Gee.. you're right. Real experiences of real people don't count.
>I guess the fact that Prozac has received more adverse reports than any
>other drug (and that within it's first six months of usage in the U.S.!) in
>the history of the voluntary adverse affect reporting system means.. oh,
>nothing. Anecdotal.
Yep. If it meant so much, people wouldn't take the drug.
>>Interesting yes; convincing no. Plus this really has nothing to do
>>with THIS case. You're convinced that drugs "caused" this, others
>>are convinced that it was the Internet, tv, harassment, or, for all
>>I know, demonic possession. Interesting as a departure point for
>>conjecture, but little else.
>These drugs are known to cause this type of reaction. Look at all these guys
>who go "postal" -- psych drugs. really. The next time something like this
>happens, look at all the reports on it until the truth comes out.
Do the drugs cause the going "postal", or does having a mind that can go
postal lead to getting prescribed the drugs at stages somewhat earlier than
the "postal" stage?
>I mean, it's weird. Two kids go shoot up a school, I say to my husband, "I
>wonder what psych drugs they were on and what psychiatrist they were
>seeing."
>It's never -- oh, it's too bad no one ever took that person to a
>psychiatrist.
One would hope that a kid who is so wacked out that they commit mass murder
will have had psychiatric treatment. But such treatment is anything but
100% effective.
When someone dies of cancer, you presumably also wonder what kind of
anticancer therapy they were on, and what ontologist they were seeing. And
you also assume that the medications caused them to die - right?
lojbab
----
lojbab ***NOTE NEW ADDRESS*** loj...@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
see Lojban WWW Server: href=" http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/lojban/ "
Order _The Complete Lojban Language_ - see our Web pages or ask me.
Thomas Jones
behavior. I have a daughter with borderline OCD, and she's one of the
best-liked kids in her class, according to her teacher. Her biological
father was, as they say here in the south, "eat up" with OCD, and it has
been shown to be genetically transferred. Obsession and/or compulsion
have/has nothing to do, medically, with "rejection." What we see here, as
we so often see with Ritalin, is the use of medication without the
accompaniment of counseling. We've decided to use counseling alone, and
lots of love and discipline, and foster a feeling of self-acceptance and
family unity to help my daughter deal with her OCD, but then hers is only
borderline. All those involved feel that the early detection and our
approach to it should prevent a full-blown disorder. Bottom line, don't
blame "society" for a problem that the parents should deal with.
Gulfy
<<Also Monday, the coroner's office said Harris had the anti-depressant Luvox
in his system at the time of the attack. Before the attack, the Marine Corps
rejected Harris' application for enlistment after learning he used the drug.
Luvox is commonly used to treat obsessive-compulsive disorder and is also used
to treat depression. >>
Val
Kangamaroo
>Uh, unless you have an additional source of information, I don't believe that
>the school had anything to do with prescribing Luvox-and in most districts, a
>staff member cannot even suggest that a child should be evaluated
>professionally
>(although I'm well aware that there are ways to pressure a parent
>covertly-I've
>seen it done).
I don't know anything about Luvox and any alleged connection with Harris'
behaviour other than what I've read. I have an opinion, but it isn't worth the
time it woud take to type it out.
However, I do know that there's a symbiotic relationship between mental health
professionals and teachers. In many cases the fact that a teacher asks if a
parent has had a child evaluated is enough for the mental health professional
to diagnose a problem.
Suggested reading:
_And they call it help: the Psychological Policing of American's Children_
_The Magic Feather_
Blessings,
Kanga
If one child takes up all your time, than seven can't take anymore. Adapted
from Elizabeth Eliot's mother
Susan
"Julie A. Pascal" <ju...@pascal.org> wrote:
>
>
> Mommo wrote:
> (...)
> > Well, have mental difficulties ALWAYS existed for people?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Did school shootings occur with this frequency a hundred years ago, before
> > psychotropic drugging of children? No.
>
> Per capita? I wouldn't be surprised if they did. You have no way
> of knowing that they didn't. Granted, "children" the age of
> these two would likely not have been in school any longer and
> their crime would have been considered right along with the adult
> crazies.
>
> I'm on a mailing list where someone posted a news clip from
> 1927 where a guy blew up a bunch of school children with dynamite
> and killed himself after.
>
> And I think it was the Viking Egil who picked up an ax at the age
> of seven or so and killed another child at a skating party.
>
> Oh, my! Mental illness a thousand years ago! (Actually they
> think they know what condition Egil had and it is characterized
> by violent rages, among other things.)
>
> > It's happening now, and one for one these school shootings have a common
> > thread... psychotropic drugs and psychiatric counseling.
>
> As someone else said... this is not enough to decide that the
> counseling and the medication are the cause of the behavior. It
> might be enough to want to look into it further but not enough
> to make a conclusion. The counseling and medication may indicate
> nothing more than the fact that the killers were unbalanced
> enough that people noticed.
>
> +Julie
Thank you Julie, for calmly saying what I wanted to rant about...
Having been in the painful situation where I had to allow a family member to
take a anti-psychotic medication, I can assure you that doctors do not take
normal healthy individuals and just hand out anti-psychotics or
anti-depressants.
The family member I had to make the determination about was exhibiting
self-abusive behavior, which could have inadvertently resulted in suicide.
Resperdal (an anti-psychotic) calmed his mind. His "mental" problems were
completely physiological due to taking many other medications for cancer
treatment.
--
@}-`-,--(ignore spamdump and use address after my name)@}-`-,--
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Kangamaroo
>The reports are that he was disqualified because he LIED about not having
>prescription medication. The USMC is not looking to take liars.
No, sorry. This I do know about. My dh is a recruiter for the world's
greatest Air Force. Harris was medically disqualified simply because of the
drug he was on. The only difference it would have made if he'd told the truth
is that the recruiter would have shown him the door immediately. And Mommo is
right about Ritalin, too. You cannot enlist if you've taken it since about 12
( there is some talk about needing to change this as the services are all
undermanned and nearly every young man has taken Ritalin these days)..
Furthermore, even without being on the drug, the fact that he was seeing a
psychiatrist would have been a problem. He might have been able to enlist, but
he'd have needed records from his psychiatrist and a military psychiatrist
would have had to clear him and a commander somewhere would need to sign a
waiver.
>One of my friends is in the USAF taking prescription medicines far stronger
>than Ritalin. He has some career limitations (cannot go overseas or take
>certain kinds of positions, and these restrictions can reduce his chances
>of promotion).
Two questions. Did he take these meds when he enlisted, or have they been
perscribed since he joined? And when did he join? The military has gotten
stricter about qualifications in recent years.
And things that prevent one from joining do not necessarily get one kicked out
later. For example, single parents cannot enlist, but they won't kick you out
if you become a single parent later.
And it's not merely a question of the strength of the drugs, it's what the
condition is.
So, Harris was certainly NOT disqualified just because he lied. All the lying
did was waste that busy recruiter's time, because I know it's one of the first
questions recruiters ask, in order to sift out those who are just not eligible
so they can get busy looking for those who are.
lilac...@my-dejanews.com
just misdiagnosed.
lilac_girl
In article <3728CBA6...@bellsouth.net>,
Donna Metler <dmme...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Uh, there might be a problem with cause and effect here-are you implying that
he
> became a murderer because he was on psychiatric medication, or that the
> medication didn't keep him from becoming a murderer? The idea that he was
> depressed, and had just suffered an emotional loss on top of it, seems to
imply
> that his depression might have played a role, and that if anything he needed
> more intervention-not less. I would be interested in knowing if he was
recieving
> the psychiatric counseling which should accompany any psychotropic drug, and
> what monitoring was being done.
>
> Mommo wrote:
>
> > Well, it's official:
> >
> > From the L.A. Times:
> >
> > "Among the leads is the medical problem cited by the Marines Corps when it
> > rejected Harris as a recruit just five days before the attack. Harris was
> > rejected because he had been taking the antidepressant drug Luvox, The New
> > York Times reported today, citing a Defense Department source. Luvox is
> > often used to treat obsessive-compulsive disorder in children and
> > adolescents."
> >
> > As a friend of mine said when she heard of the murders.. "It's not IF psych
> > drugs were involved. It's how much and what kind. It's not WAS HE seeing a
> > psychiatrist, but WHO was he seeing?"
> >
> > These drugs are dangerous, and parents need to research very, very carefully
> > before submitting their children to them!
> >
> > --Jane
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Gulfy
phenomenon? If someone had told me 20 years ago that in 1999, millions of kids
would be required to take daily behavior modification medicine to get along in
life, I wouldn't have believed it.
Valerie
JN
Bob LeChevalier <loj...@lojban.org> wrote in article
<wNyX2.16$OZ.11...@newsie.cais.net>...
> "Mommo" <davida...@DONTSPAMMEhotmail.com> wrote:
> >These drugs DO stay in the body -- and they do continue to affect a
person.
> >Not only that, but when the drugs are suddenly stopped, there can be
huge
> >problems. Such as 9 year old children committing suicide when they stop
> >taking Ritalin. (It's highly addictive.)
>
> Ritalin is not in the least bit addictive. When a child is taken off
> Ritalin, there is no need for weaning off the drug or any type of
> anti-addictive measures, unlike other drugs. That is why it is used
rather
I don't know where you have gotten your information, but you are completely
wrong. It is addictive and it does build up in the body. Children on
rititin are given much smaller doses today than in the past but it is still
a very dangerous drug in the wrong hands or if taken without careful
monitoring.
>
> Ritalin is related chemically to amphetamimes, some of which are
addictive.
>
> >Per the L.A. Times:
>
> >"Officials investigating the Columbine High School massacre confirmed
> >Wednesday that five days before he opened fire on his classmates, Eric
> >Harris was informed by the Marine Corps that he was disqualified from
> >enlisting because of a medical condition.
>
> >Harris, whose father is a retired Air Force pilot, already had talked
with
> >recruiters and done well. In a follow-up interview at the Harris home on
> >April 15, authorities said, the teen's parents disclosed to recruiters
that
> >their son was taking psychiatric medication."
>
> The reports are that he was disqualified because he LIED about not having
> prescription medication. The USMC is not looking to take liars.
>
>
>
> >>Interesting yes; convincing no. Plus this really has nothing to do
> >>with THIS case. You're convinced that drugs "caused" this, others
> >>are convinced that it was the Internet, tv, harassment, or, for all
> >>I know, demonic possession. Interesting as a departure point for
> >>conjecture, but little else.
It was a lack of discipline with harrassment that was a major cause of
this, amongst other things. Yes we should expect students to have self
discipline and not blow anyone up when repeatedly abused and harrassed over
a long period of time. But the bottom line is.....don't hold your breath
or count on it. This is apt to happen again and it could be in any school
until we solve the problems in the schools and in the homes. No matter how
well you prepare your own children or how well you raise them, school is a
tremendous influence.
>
> >These drugs are known to cause this type of reaction. Look at all these
guys
> >who go "postal" -- psych drugs. really. The next time something like
this
> >happens, look at all the reports on it until the truth comes out.
>
> Do the drugs cause the going "postal", or does having a mind that can go
> postal lead to getting prescribed the drugs at stages somewhat earlier
than
> the "postal" stage?
Being pushed to your limit could have caused them to go postal...I hate
that word. They made a decision to take matters in their own hands and get
revenge on students that had abused and harrassed them and on a school
that did nothing about it. Read the letter they left behind.
JN
Gulfy
wrong. It is addictive and it does build up in the body. Children on rititin
are given much smaller doses today than in the past but it is still a very
dangerous drug in the wrong hands or if taken without careful monitoring.>>
If I remember correctly, a couple of years ago a Newsweek article mentioned
that Ritalin is a preferred drug for older kids to get a quick high since it's
so readily available. I think they were sniffing it.
Valerie
simon smith
<paulw...@earthlink.net> writes
> And given the
>physical torment the two shooters were subject to for years, while
>adults did nothing, it's now wonder they were obsessed.
I keep reading on the internet about this torment, but I haven't been
able to find much evidence from news sources. I'd be grateful if someone
were to put me right on this. What I have gathered is that the boys were
members of a gang which had a uniform, espoused nazi beliefs, and gave
and received abuse from other groups in the school. An eyewitness said
that they spent several minutes racially taunting the young black boy
before blowing his brains out. They don't really sound like victims to
me.
--
simon
damaged justice
And by another report, one of them "pardoned" a Mormon boy who had been nice
to him. They're still killers. Suck.com noted: "We have a hard time saying
that any kid who can score a bottle blonde date to the prom is an "unpopular
outcast" (and since these filthy rich, Hitlerite goons fit the "sociopathic
jerk-off" pattern more than the "misunderstood youth" pattern, that would seem
to obviate any important lessons we can draw about troubled teens)."
--
I let go of the law, and people become honest / I let go of economics, and
people become prosperous / I let go of religion, and people become serene /
I let go of all desire for the common good, and the good becomes common as
grass. .oOo. [Tao Te Ching, Chapter 57, Stephen Mitchell translation]
Gulfy
posted to the Co hsling list that she went to Columbine 10 years or so ago. As
a weird kid herself, she was taunted and ridiculed by the students and the
staff.
Valerie
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