The thief on the cross - saved without water baptism
gabriel
saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear
God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed
justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man
hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into
thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
thou be with me in paradise."
[Luke 23:39-43 KJV]
This particular thief was saved while hanging on his cross. He
was going to heaven. What did He do?
Was He baptized with water? No.
He clearly
[1] repented, realizing he deserved the punishment for his sins
("we indeed justly (are in condemnation); for we receive the due
reward for our deeds") and then,
[2] believed upon Christ to save him, calling on Him to be his
Lord and Savior ("Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into
thy kingdom")
And Christ then verified that He would end up in heaven for
obeying the command of God, the leading of God, to repent and put
your trust in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
He was baptized of the spirit, not of water. Water baptism is a
public profession of your faith after you are saved - water
baptism does not save, including baptism by water as a child.
Those what are trusting in water to save them, or trusting in
their church to save them, or trusting in their catechisms to
save them, or attendance, or good works, or keeping the law, or
remaining sinless, or anything else are not trusting only in what
Christ did on the cross to save them, and are not yet saved, not
yet Christians.
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into
the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and
in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from
me, ye that work iniquity."
[Matthew 7:21-23 KJV]
The greatest thing any teacher could teach others: the gospel of
truth!
Michael Christ
"gabriel" <gabriel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f2a7k5t9fvgv27si6...@4ax.com...
That's right, the washing of the Word of God/Truth/Jesus...one and the same.
But many will not receive the truth which goes way beyond just doctrine.
This is why...
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to
the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jesus is not allowed to come into the daily lives of many because they do
not want to be washed and cleaned by the truth and be changed. They prefer
to be parked at bible verses that only give the appearance that they are
okay as they are.
Michael Christ
duke
>"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
>saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
>But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear
>God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed
>justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man
>hath done nothing amiss.
>And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into
>thy kingdom.
>And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
>thou be with me in paradise."
>[Luke 23:39-43 KJV]
>
>This particular thief was saved while hanging on his cross. He
>was going to heaven. What did He do?
>
>Was He baptized with water? No.
>
>He clearly
Was born under the old covenant. Look at all the souls that were raised to new
life that had died in God's friendship but never knew or heard of Christ at the
moment the veil was split.
>[1] repented, realizing he deserved the punishment for his sins
>("we indeed justly (are in condemnation); for we receive the due
>reward for our deeds") and then,
>[2] believed upon Christ to save him, calling on Him to be his
>Lord and Savior ("Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into
>thy kingdom")
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Donna Kupp
Donna writes:
In the matter of the penitent thief on the cross, the Father
revealed the Christ to him --just like he did to Peter ...
"He [Jesus] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
And Simon Peter answered and said,
"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus answered and said to him,
"Blessed are you, Simon Barjona,
because flesh and blood did not reveal {this} to you,
**but My Father who is in heaven.**
"And I also say to you that you are Peter,
and upon THIS ROCK I will build My church;
and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."
Matt 16:15-18 (NAS)
"THIS ROCK" means believing that Jesus is The Christ.
Only those who have been **begotten by God** are able to
recognize Jesus as their Saviour and Lord.
The Father had given the thief gifts of faith and repentance!
Now, we will see how the thief had a living faith that
produced works in that compressed period of time before
he died.
1. He encouraged the other thief to "Fear God".
"One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, [Jesus]
saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God,
since you are under the same sentence of condemnation"?
Luke 23:39-40 (RSV)
To "Fear God" is to morally revere God:
"Fear God, and keep his commandments:
for this is the whole duty of man.
For God shall bring every work into judgment,
with every secret thing, whether it be good,
or whether it be evil." Eccl 12:13 (KJV)
2. He acknowledged his sins ...
"And we indeed justly;
for we receive the due reward of our deeds:
but this man hath done nothing
amiss."
Luke 23:41 (KJV)
3. He called Jesus Christ "Lord", believed in the
resurrection and he wanted to enter the kingdom:
"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou
comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42 (KJV)
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation." Rom 10:9-10 (KJV)
On the day of judgment, all men will be justifed or condemned
by the choices that they make --whether they have the
opportunity to do the deeds --or not.
"For God shall bring every work into judgment,
with every secret thing, whether it be good,
or whether it be evil." Eccl 12:13 (KJV)
For example, in the matter of adultery when Jesus said:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman
TO LUST
after her hath committed adultery
with her already in his heart." Matt 5:28
(KJV)
In that case, even though the man did not DO the deed, he
had the INTENT to do it if he had the opportunity. Jesus
is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart,
whether the secret choice is good or bad. In the case of the
thief on the cross, he had the INTENT to obey God but
lacked the opportunity to do it. Jesus said to him:
"Verily I say unto thee,
To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
Luke 23:43 (KJV)
Donna Kupp
References: Luke 23:32-43
"...for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands
every plan and thought. If you seek Him, He will be
found by you; but if you forsake Him, he will cast you
off for ever." (1 Chronicles 28:9)
"Here is the patience of the saints:
here are they that keep the commandments of God,
and the faith of Jesus." Rev 14:12 (KJV)
The Seven Deadly Deceptions Of Counterfeit Christianity
http://www.freetruth.info
gabriel
wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:12:32 -0500, gabriel <gabriel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
> >saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
> >But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear
> >God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed
> >justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man
> >hath done nothing amiss.
> >And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into
> >thy kingdom.
> >And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
> >thou be with me in paradise."
> >[Luke 23:39-43 KJV]
> >
> >This particular thief was saved while hanging on his cross. He
> >was going to heaven. What did He do?
> >
> >Was He baptized with water? No.
> >
> >He clearly
>
> Was born under the old covenant. Look at all the souls that were raised to new
> life that had died in God's friendship but never knew or heard of Christ at the
> moment the veil was split.
Yes, in the old covenant, they never knew or heard of Jesus
Christ (but they knew the messiah was coming).
The thief had Christ right next to Him.
The thief knew Jesus Christ was the Son of God and had the power
from God to save the lost:
And he (the thief) said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember
me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
So even by your own description of old covenant: people not
knowing or hearing of Christ - the thief knew him and clearly
heard of Him and called on Him as Lord and Savior after
repenting, and he was saved without being baptized with water.
gabriel
<dk...@charter.net> wrote:
> On Jan 5, 1:12�pm, gabriel <gabriel_bapt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Donna writes:
>
> In the matter of the penitent thief on the cross, the Father
> revealed the Christ to him --just like he did to Peter ...
God reveals Christ to everyone that eventually comes to Christ.
No one comes to Christ or God of their own accord.
" As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There
is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become
unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:10-12 KJV
>
> "He [Jesus] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
> And Simon Peter answered and said,
> "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
>
> And Jesus answered and said to him,
> "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona,
> because flesh and blood did not reveal {this} to you,
> **but My Father who is in heaven.**
>
> "And I also say to you that you are Peter,
> and upon THIS ROCK I will build My church;
> and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."
> Matt 16:15-18 (NAS)
Yes, for everyone that comes to Christ as the Son of the living
God, it is the Father who is in heaven that reveals it to them.
Nowhere does it say in scriptures that I'm aware of that a man
comes to Christ as the Son of the living God of their own
according with no leading from God; to repentance of their own
accord. In fact, scripture says quite the opposite in many places
(ref. Romans 3:10-12)
>
> "THIS ROCK" means believing that Jesus is The Christ.
> Only those who have been **begotten by God** are able to
> recognize Jesus as their Saviour and Lord.
>
> The Father had given the thief gifts of faith and repentance!
As He gives to all those who are saved.
" Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance
and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth
thee to repentance?
Romans 2:4 KJV
" Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who
for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising
the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of
God.
Hebrews 12:2 KJV
> Now, we will see how the thief had a living faith that
> produced works in that compressed period of time before
> he died.
>
> 1. He encouraged the other thief to "Fear God".
>
> "One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, [Jesus]
> saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
>
> But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God,
> since you are under the same sentence of condemnation"?
> Luke 23:39-40 (RSV)
>
> To "Fear God" is to morally revere God:
>
> "Fear God, and keep his commandments:
> for this is the whole duty of man.
> For God shall bring every work into judgment,
> with every secret thing, whether it be good,
> or whether it be evil." Eccl 12:13 (KJV)
>
> 2. He acknowledged his sins ...
>
> "And we indeed justly;
> for we receive the due reward of our deeds:
> but this man hath done nothing
> amiss."
> Luke 23:41 (KJV)
>
Yes, we must repent, or perish.
" From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for
the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 4:17 KJV
The thief clearly obeyed God and repented.
> 3. He called Jesus Christ "Lord", believed in the
> resurrection and he wanted to enter the kingdom:
>
> "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou
> comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42 (KJV)
Yes, the thief clearly obeyed God and called on the name of the
Lord: Jesus Christ.
" For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
saved.
Romans 10:13 KJV
>
> "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
> and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him
> from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man
> believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
> confession is made unto salvation." Rom 10:9-10 (KJV)
>
> On the day of judgment, all men will be justifed or condemned
> by the choices that they make --whether they have the
> opportunity to do the deeds --or not.
>
> "For God shall bring every work into judgment,
> with every secret thing, whether it be good,
> or whether it be evil." Eccl 12:13 (KJV)
>
> For example, in the matter of adultery when Jesus said:
>
> "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman
> TO LUST
> after her hath committed adultery
> with her already in his heart." Matt 5:28
> (KJV)
>
> In that case, even though the man did not DO the deed, he
> had the INTENT to do it if he had the opportunity.
Lust in the heart does not automatically mean a person would do
it even if given the chance. Doing it and lusting in the mind are
two very different things, even though lust is still "committing
adultery in the heart." It's many very real and very negative
consequences that keep many men from following through with their
lust and actually physically committing adultery. But it doesn't
matter - if they lust in their heart, they've committed adultery
already in their heart.
But this clearly does not say such people will commit adultery if
given the chance - this verse does not say that at all - the
verse points out such people are already guilty of committing
adultery of the heart. If they commit adultery, then they'd be
guilty of physically committing it as well.
" But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust
after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Matthew 5:28 KJV
The verse doesn't say that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust
after her will eventually do it if given the chance, hence that's
why you are an adulterer. The verse says such a person has
already, past tense, committed adultery with the person in his
heart. Even if they do not go on to commit actual adultery, they
are still guilty of adultery in the heart.
Many married people lust after the opposite sex, but never act
upon it even when given the chance. But the lust is still
"committing adultery in the heart" and is still sin, even for
those who would not act upon it.
I've known married men in the past that lusted and have never
cheated - doesn't matter because the lust means they've still
committed adultery in the heart.
> Jesus
> is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart,
> whether the secret choice is good or bad. In the case of the
> thief on the cross, he had the INTENT to obey God but
> lacked the opportunity to do it.
Not sure what you're talking about here, as the thief *did* obey
God. As even you pointed out, he obeyed God and repented, and
obeyed God to believe on and call on Christ to be His Lord and
Savior. This is why He was saved, because He obeyed God's leading
and commanding to do so. This is why the disciples mentioned
above were not yet saved - even though they had received water
baptism, they hadn't believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, which is
what God commands and leads us to do to save us, where we can
then receive the Holy Spirit.
But people who claim that being baptized with water saves you,
this is just yet another case where it's not baptism by water
that saves - it's obeying God's commandment to repent, and then
believe upon the only Son of God as the only way to be saved from
the punishment of our sins. Water baptism is a commanded public
profession of faith after you've been saved.
Here's another case of disciples being baptized with water, but
not yet saved because *they had not yet believed*.
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul
having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and
finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received
the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether
there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized?
And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of
repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on
him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord
Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost
came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 19:1-6 KJV
Clearly:
[1] These men were not saved even though they were baptized with
water
[2] Paul pointed out that they would receive the Holy Ghost after
*believing*.
[3] Once they believed in Christ, that is when they received the
holy ghost.
walksalone
14c39d...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
> On Jan 5, 1:12�pm, gabriel <gabriel_bapt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Donna writes:
>
> In the matter of the penitent thief on the cross, the Father
> revealed the Christ to him --just like he did to Peter ...
>
In the matter of the thief on the cross, physically possible but
historically impossible. The Romans were not wasteful when it came to
free slave labor, indeed they were grateful for it. They do not have to
order new land and people & thereby depleting the legions. Financially
this is very important, as well as militarily. It cost money to raise a
legion and train it, plus the more experienced military personnel you
had, the fewer casualties and therefore, the fewer replacements required.
Under Roman law or three possibilities that would entitle you to visit
fiction & the place of honor that involved.
These are verifiable, but very few Christians bother to try. Originally
there were only two, insurrection against the state, or a slave in a
state of rebellion or one who has killed his master. After Julius Caesar,
piracy was grounds for crucifixion. But this is an isolated case of
inbound landmass who would not have had pirates. Crucifixion a vital role
in population control under the Roman empire. It was not wasted, indeed,
he was counting on to help keep the population under control. And there
was no overnight taken down due to local sensibilities under that
particular law. You hung out in front of God share one until your bones
fell apart. You were also hung up, stark naked. Nothing between you and
your gods except, death. Slow and painful death. Not one that was over
during the afternoon picnic, except in one case claimed. It was meant to
be cruel, it was meant to last, and it was meant to drive home a message.
That's more of the reasons that crucifixion was reserved for the Roman
empire magistrates. However, a local authorities could order up a stoning
the amusement of the audience based on local law. Under Jewish law,
blasphemy was punishable by death, death by stoning. Indeed, at least one
event is recorded afterwards where stoning is the method of death by
public decree. But of course, that is glossed over even though it was
decreed by and enforced by local Jewish authorities. You may recall the
claimed death of the apostle Stephen, no?
In any event, crucifixion was not anything that you're missing messiah
was claimed to have earned.
Now, if as it appears, he was an insurrectionist, then yes, he got what
the law would have state. But this presupposes several other problems
having been resolved already. Such as his being missing from history, the
birth proclamations being based on false premises, in the total absence
of any independent sources for his existence during the claimed time.
This includes people that should have been writing about him not doing
that. What is your problem, not mine. Or rather a sharp problem if you're
one of the honest followers who want to know instead of simply believe.
snip, somehow using biblical quotations to prove the Bible correct has
always seemed to be a bit on the absurd side. After all, if history does
not support your claim, why bother to make it unless you want power over
others. In that aspect, it is a winner. Unless of course, one wants to
know is to believe.
walksalone who has always found it rather odd that people come as a
group, for to believe than to know. I refer to that as being bizarre even
though some others do not.
Amida [Amida-Nyorai] Immeasurable life
Japan, Buddhist
A buddha that posesses the properties of immeasurable life, & light. In
the Jodo faith, he is the key to access to Jodo, the pure land. At the
time of death, simplely saying his name is release if your beleif is pure
& deep.It is he the japanese turn to at the moment of death, for his
realm has a Lotus pond, that is just brimming with ambrosia & surrounded
by jewel studded trees. On the branches of those trees are perched
marvlous birds & melodious bells are attached to every branch. The buddha
& his angels circle the area while scattering lotus petals on the gentle
breezes.
duke
>On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:08:16 -0600, duke <duckg...@cox.net>
>wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:12:32 -0500, gabriel <gabriel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
>> >saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
>> >But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear
>> >God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed
>> >justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man
>> >hath done nothing amiss.
>> >And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into
>> >thy kingdom.
>> >And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
>> >thou be with me in paradise."
>> >[Luke 23:39-43 KJV]
>> >
>> >This particular thief was saved while hanging on his cross. He
>> >was going to heaven. What did He do?
>> >
>> >Was He baptized with water? No.
>> >
>> >He clearly
>>
>> Was born under the old covenant. Look at all the souls that were raised to new
>> life that had died in God's friendship but never knew or heard of Christ at the
>> moment the veil was split.
>
>Yes, in the old covenant, they never knew or heard of Jesus
>Christ (but they knew the messiah was coming).
Yes, as a warrior king.
>The thief had Christ right next to Him.
>The thief knew Jesus Christ was the Son of God and had the power
>from God to save the lost:
He did. How did he know that?
> And he (the thief) said unto Jesus, "Lord, remember
> me when thou comest into thy kingdom."
>So even by your own description of old covenant: people not
>knowing or hearing of Christ - the thief knew him and clearly
>heard of Him and called on Him as Lord and Savior after
>repenting,
I believe. But what about all the souls that rose to new life that died before
the cross?
> and he was saved without being baptized with water.
There are 3 baptisms - water, spirit, and desire/fire. The third one is what
the thief showed.
Misanthropic Curmudgeon
> "And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him,
> saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
> But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear
> God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed
> justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man
> hath done nothing amiss.
> And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into
> thy kingdom.
> And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt
> thou be with me in paradise."
> [Luke 23:39-43 KJV]
Not accroding to Mark15:32, which has both thiefs reviling him unto
the end.
gabriel
Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we
may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him
reviled him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness
over the whole land until the ninth hour.
(Mark 15:32-33)
Reviling him? Yes. To the end? No.
gabriel
wrote:
Because God opened his eyes. And the point is he did know that,
and he was saved without being baptized by water.
pyotr filipivich
about Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:01:13 -0500 did write/type or cause to
appear in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
So remember folks, if you are being tortured to death for your
crimes, it is possible to be enlightened, and be saved, all without
water baptism, catechism classes, the sinner's prayer or any of those
other means. Just turn to the other prisoner being executed and say
"Remember me, o lord, when you come into your kingdom."
Of curse, it does behoove you to be crucified next to the Real
Messiah(tm). Because if the Son of God, the Word incarnate, says
"you're in", you're in. Really, it is all about who you know. Well,
actually, more along the lines of"who knows you".
-
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.