Strengthening 2x4 floor/ceiling joists.
Doug Rudoff
[First of all thanks to all the people I didn't get a chance to thank
who answered my gas furnace question many weeks ago. I didn't get a
gas furnace and decided to first insulate the house better (with half
paid for by my electric company).]
I have a huge attic that one day I'll finish into a useful living
space. Unfortunately, the person who built the thing decades ago
decided to use 2x4 at 16 inch centers as joists. 2X10s are the code
today. I have places in the attic where there is a 12 foot span only
supported by 2x4s! As you can imagine, the floor bends a bit when
walked on (there are tongue and groove planks over the joists in the
attic for a floor).
I know I need to fix this if I'm going to use this space. One thing I
want to avoid doing is losing ceiling height in the attic, which means
I stuck with using 2x4s.
First of all, I know I need to use high-grade lumber. Is there any
type or description used for high-grade, stiff lumber?
Pulling out the planks and putting sturdy plywood over the joists
would stiffen up the floor, right? How thick, 3/4 inch, 1 Inch?
I could add 1, 2 or even 3 extra joists between the existing joists.
Or I could attach one or two new joists to the side or sides of the
current joists. Which would be better?
Any other suggestions?
(Yes, I know this won't be to code. I do want it safe, however.)
Thanks
--
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Doug Rudoff Motorola, Seattle INTERNET:rud...@mdd.comm.mot.com
USENET:uunet!mdisea!rudoff
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Steve Jackson
>I have a huge attic that one day I'll finish into a useful living
>space. Unfortunately, the person who built the thing decades ago
>decided to use 2x4 at 16 inch centers as joists. 2X10s are the code
>today. I have places in the attic where there is a 12 foot span only
>supported by 2x4s! As you can imagine, the floor bends a bit when
>walked on (there are tongue and groove planks over the joists in the
>attic for a floor).
Our house has almost exactly the same thing.
>I know I need to fix this if I'm going to use this space. One thing I
>want to avoid doing is losing ceiling height in the attic, which means
>I stuck with using 2x4s.
I plan on doing something with our attic, and don't want to lose headroom,
either. Depending on what you stick up there (storage, bedrooms, general
use rooms, etc) can determine how small of joists you can get away with.
>First of all, I know I need to use high-grade lumber. Is there any
>type or description used for high-grade, stiff lumber?
That'd be Douglas Fir Structural Select, with Douglas Fir Structural Select
Dense being listed in various charts as being even better. You may be able
to use lower grade stuff, so check first.
I wouldn't be surprised if you have to special order the stuff. And as
for price...
>Pulling out the planks and putting sturdy plywood over the joists
>would stiffen up the floor, right? How thick, 3/4 inch, 1 Inch?
>I could add 1, 2 or even 3 extra joists between the existing joists.
>Or I could attach one or two new joists to the side or sides of the
>current joists. Which would be better?
I'll let someone else answer that one.
>Any other suggestions?
>(Yes, I know this won't be to code. I do want it safe, however.)
Yes, make it to code.
Steve Jackson
sjac...@medicus.com
661...@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com
I plan on doing something with our attic, and don't want to lose headroom,
(Yes, I know this won't be to code. I do want it safe, however.)
------------------------------------------------------------------
IN CALIFORNIA IF YOU DON'T BUILD IT TO CODE YOU WILL HAVE A VERY
DIFFICULT TIME SELLING YOUR HOME. I'M NOT SURE OF OTHER AREAS.
FULL DISCLOSURE AND PROPERTY INSPECTION IS A MATTER OF COURSE IN
THIS AREA. ANYTHING NOT TO CODE HAS TO BE FIXED, REMOVED OR
WAIVED UPON SALE OF THE HOUSE.
ALSO, SHOULD THE FLOOR BREAK AND INJURE SOMEONE YOUR INSURANCE WILL
PROBABLY NOT PAY FOR ANYTHING. THOUGH PARTS OF THE BUILDING CODE
SEEM STUPID, THE SIZE OF CEILING/FLOOR JOISTS IS THERE FOR A GOOD
REASON.
IN MY DAD'S OLD HOUSE WE PUT 3/4 INCH PLYWOOD IN OUR BIG ATTIC OVER
MOST OF THE 2X4 JOISTS. WE DID NOT COVER ANY AREA, HOWEVER, THAT
HAD MORE THAN A 10' SPAN BETWEEN WALLS. HENCE, WHAT WAS OVER THE
LIVING ROOM WAS NOT COVERED. YOU COULD SURE HEAR SOMEBODY WALKING
AROUND UPSTAIRS AND WE GOT QUITE A FEW CRACKS IN THE CEILINGS
DOWNSTAIRS, BUT WE DID ENJOY THE STORAGE SPACE (THE ATTIC WAS NEVER
"FINISHED" EXCEPT FOR THE FLOORING.
WE HAD A MAJOR HASSLE, THOUGH, WHEN WE SOLD THE HOUSE LAST YEAR.
THE BUYER ORIGINALLY WANTED US TO BRING IT ALL UP TO CODE (BIG BUCKS).
WE FINALLY SOLD IT "AS IS" BUT HAD TO LOWER THE PRICE SO AS NOT
TO LOSE THE DEAL (IT'S TOUGH TO SELL A HOUSE IN CA THESE DAYS).
SAVE YOURSELF FUTURE TROUBLE AND DO IT BY CODE THE FIRST TIME.
D. BRADY
Bob McKay
>rud...@mdd.comm.mot.com (Doug Rudoff) writes:
>>I have a huge attic that one day I'll finish into a useful living
>>space. Unfortunately, the person who built the thing decades ago
>>decided to use 2x4 at 16 inch centers as joists. 2X10s are the code
>>today. I have places in the attic where there is a 12 foot span only
>>supported by 2x4s! As you can imagine, the floor bends a bit when
>>walked on (there are tongue and groove planks over the joists in the
>>attic for a floor).
How about beefing up the joists with steel angle? Something around 5mm 50 * 50
(that'd be 1/8" 2*2 angle) would probably do it - but I'd check on the
RIGHT size at your local steel merchant. A 'U' profile would be even better
- probably more expensive than replacing the joists, but a much simpler job,
especially if you're more concerned about safety than meeting formal code
(depends on whether your regulators are prepared to use common sense).
Actually, a thread on regulatory idiocy would be interesting - such as
the local regulatory body (fortunately not mine) that requires footings in
bedrock to be blasted out so that you can replace 90MPa granite with 20MPa
concrete.
--
Bob McKay Phone: +61 6 268 8169 fax: +61 6 268 8581
Dept. Computer Science Internet: r...@csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au
ADFA, Northcott Dve UUCP:...!uunet!munnari!csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au!rim
Campbell ACT 2600 AUSTRALIA ARPA: rim%csadfa.cs....@uunet.uu.net
Mark R Poulson
> I have a huge attic that one day I'll finish into a useful living
> space. Unfortunately, the person who built the thing decades ago
> decided to use 2x4 at 16 inch centers as joists. 2X10s are the code
> today. I have places in the attic where there is a 12 foot span only
> supported by 2x4s! As you can imagine, the floor bends a bit when
> walked on (there are tongue and groove planks over the joists in the
> attic for a floor).
>
> want to avoid doing is losing ceiling height in the attic, which means
> I stuck with using 2x4s.
>
> type or description used for high-grade, stiff lumber?
Yes, and I don't remember the terminology. I don't think you're going to
get a 2x4 of anything that will span 12 feet. You'll be lucky to get by
with 2x8's unless they're steel.
> Pulling out the planks and putting sturdy plywood over the joists
> would stiffen up the floor, right? How thick, 3/4 inch, 1 Inch?
Some, but how thick are those tongue and groove boards. If they're 3/4 inch,
then you may get some more stiffness by going to 3/4 inch t&g plywood. You
could try 5/4 plywood, but its expensive and HEAVY. Flooring material is not
solving the problem anyway.
> I could add 1, 2 or even 3 extra joists between the existing joists.
> Or I could attach one or two new joists to the side or sides of the
> current joists. Which would be better?
Attaching new joists to the sides of the existing ones is probably best, but
you've got to use stronger (i.e. 2x6 or 2x8) joists.
> Any other suggestions?
If you don't mind losing some of your floor space, you could install a truss
system (a W truss leaves the most floor space) using 2x4's. This will cause
the room looking like this:
**
*/ \ *
* / \ *
* / \ *
* / \ *
* \ / walk \ / *
* \ / here \ / *
* \ / \ / *
===============================================
You've now lost 2/3 of you floor space for walking around, but you still have
a lot of storage area if that's what you're looking for. You may be able to get
away with trussing every 48 inches, which would allow lots of little cubby
for desks, chairs, etc.
If you really want to make this a usable room, I'm afraid you may have no other
choice than to remove the roof, use proper joists, and re-roof with a steeper
pitch roof.
Mark
Chris Lewis
>rud...@mdd.comm.mot.com (Doug Rudoff) writes:
>>I have a huge attic that one day I'll finish into a useful living
>>space. Unfortunately, the person who built the thing decades ago
>>decided to use 2x4 at 16 inch centers as joists.
>>I know I need to fix this if I'm going to use this space. One thing I
>>want to avoid doing is losing ceiling height in the attic, which means
>>I stuck with using 2x4s.
>>First of all, I know I need to use high-grade lumber. Is there any
>>type or description used for high-grade, stiff lumber?
>That'd be Douglas Fir Structural Select, with Douglas Fir Structural Select
>Dense being listed in various charts as being even better. You may be able
>to use lower grade stuff, so check first.
Not even these will get you to a 12 foot span. I studied an old span
table book, and if I recall correctly, standard SPF construction grade
lumber 2x4s will only get you to about 4.5 feet (for the 40 lb/square foot
loading required by most codes), and the top-grade Douglas fir only gets you
2 or 3 feet more. Certainly not to 12 feet. With luck, 9 feet.
On the other hand, consult with an engineer and/or inspector, perhaps you
can get away with cleating pairs of 2x4s on the sides of the existing
ones. While you're asking, find out what the proper nailing pattern is too.
It's also possible that you'll be able to use a "made-up" "beam truss".
As in, with two pieces of good quality 2x2, plus two side strips of 1/2
or 3/4" plywood, you'll be able to make a 12 foot composite joist that
meets the loading requirements that's only an inch or two higher than
your existing 2x4s, and install them against the existing ones. Even
with relatively inexpensive wood, these'll be better than equivalent-size
joists of top-grade structural lumber.
[I've seen these "wrapped around" existing 18' 2x4 rafters (it was
rickety to begin with, and they wanted to remove the intermediate 2x4
truss supports). I believe these ended up being about 8 inches deep
in total. Installation quality/nailing pattern/"sound" wood is critical here.]
[These beams have two 2x2's or 2x4's on edge, separated by some gap vertically,
and then two sheets of plywood are nailed on the sides making up a hollow
beam. They can either be madeup and installed, or built in-place using
the existing joist as part of the unit - eg: replacing one of the solid
members in the truss. I suggested a made-up unit, in *addition* to the
existing joist to minimize the overall depth.]
Or one of the above in combination with an additional layer of plywood
or T&G.
No matter what you do, if it's not "ordinary" joists meeting ordinary
span tables, you'll probably have to get an engineer to sign-off your design
for loading requirements before you get an approval/permit to do the work.
Ie: to meet code, you're going to need an engineer involved anyways. But
you do have potential (cheaper) alternatives to lifting the roof.
Don't forget to put in stiffeners - otherwise the floor will wobble when
you walk on it.
Steve Jackson
>In article <1993Mar10.1...@medicus.com> sjac...@medicus.com (Steve Jackson) writes:
>>rud...@mdd.comm.mot.com (Doug Rudoff) writes:
>>>First of all, I know I need to use high-grade lumber. Is there any
>>>type or description used for high-grade, stiff lumber?
>>That'd be Douglas Fir Structural Select, with Douglas Fir Structural Select
>>Dense being listed in various charts as being even better. You may be able
>>to use lower grade stuff, so check first.
>Not even these will get you to a 12 foot span. I studied an old span
>table book, and if I recall correctly, standard SPF construction grade
>lumber 2x4s will only get you to about 4.5 feet (for the 40 lb/square foot
>loading required by most codes), and the top-grade Douglas fir only gets you
>2 or 3 feet more. Certainly not to 12 feet. With luck, 9 feet.
Right, 2x4's aren't going to get you too far. When I wrote about Structural
Select (Dense) I assumed everyone knew you couldn't do it with 2x4s. By
using Select, you might be able to get by with a 2x6 instead of a 2x8, or
a 2x8 instead of a 2x10, etc., all depending on the span tables, of course.
But then again, it might not make any difference at all.
Steve Jackson
sjac...@medicus.com
Paul Barton-Davis
>In article <1993Mar10.1...@medicus.com> sjac...@medicus.com (Steve Jackson) writes:
>>rud...@mdd.comm.mot.com (Doug Rudoff) writes:
>>>I have a huge attic that one day I'll finish into a useful living
>>>space. Unfortunately, the person who built the thing decades ago
>>>decided to use 2x4 at 16 inch centers as joists.
>
>>>I know I need to fix this if I'm going to use this space. One thing I
>>>want to avoid doing is losing ceiling height in the attic, which means
>>>I stuck with using 2x4s.
>
>>>First of all, I know I need to use high-grade lumber. Is there any
>>>type or description used for high-grade, stiff lumber?
>
>>That'd be Douglas Fir Structural Select, with Douglas Fir Structural Select
>>Dense being listed in various charts as being even better. You may be able
>>to use lower grade stuff, so check first.
>
>Not even these will get you to a 12 foot span. I studied an old span
>table book, and if I recall correctly, standard SPF construction grade
>lumber 2x4s will only get you to about 4.5 feet (for the 40 lb/square foot
>loading required by most codes), and the top-grade Douglas fir only gets you
>2 or 3 feet more. Certainly not to 12 feet. With luck, 9 feet.
[ .. more good stuff ... ]
Someone faced the same problem in our house sometime in the 1950's. I
have no idea if what they did was to code (which I despise for its
appalling obvious surrender to trade groups nationwide, even if the
basic idea is sound). They laid down an orthogonal set of 2x4's down
the center of the attic where the floor would be (between the two knee
walls). In several places, close to where the new upper joists cross a
lower wall, these are bolted to the lower joists. In addition, a 6x6
beam was run across the front of the house, and hung from the rafters
in the central zone. The upper joists are bolted to this as well.
There are several reasons why this is a bad idea. First, hanging a
floor from 2x4 roof rafters is a bad thing. Second, it confuses the
issue of what is and is not a load-bearing wall below, since every
wall is now potentially topped by orthogonal joists. Third, it doesn't
solve span issues in a real way.
However, it was done, and we live in it. Its our main bedroom, has 2
skylights, a large double futon, clothes units, a huge desk and
numerous plants. The floor is somewhat bouncy, and the lower ceilings
have cracked many times in the past (though they appear more stable
now).
The flooring on top is nominal 1x6 T&G, with 1/4" ply on top (some
recent owner added this).
A drawing:
Old arrangement: "XX" - load bearing wall supporting joists
<- 20ft -> ^
|
front of house (minus porch & bay)
+========== exterior wall ===================================+
| X |
e X |
x=========================== |
t ================================== |
e X |
r X |
i=========================== |
o ================================== |
r X |
| X |
w ========================== |
a =================================== | 30ft
l X |
l X |
|=========================== |
| =================================== |
| X |
| X |
|=========================== |
| ================================== |
| X |
| X |
|=========================== |
| =================================== |
| X |
| X |
|=========================== |
| =================================== |
| X |
| X |
|=========================== |
| ================================== |
| X |
| X | |
+============================================================+ v
New arrangement: new "XXX" are walls that are now effectively
load bearing
"BBB" 6x6 beam, sits on exterior walls, and
is suspended from rafters in several places
"...." location of attic knee walls
Rear knee wall is "structural" in that it is tied
to the upper joists & the rafters. Yikes !
this line continues to the back wall
|
v
+========== exterior wall ===================================+
| | | | | | | | | |
e | | | | | | | | |
x====|======|======|======|= | | | | |
t | | | |======|=======|=======|=======|== |
e | | | | | | | | |
r | | | | | | | | |
i====|======|======|======|= | | | | |
o | | | |======|=======|=======|=======|== |
r BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB |
| | | | | | | | | |
w ===|======|======|======|= | | | | |
a | | | =|======|=======|=======|=======|== | 30ft
l........................................................... |
l | | | | | | | | |
|====|======|======|======== XX |XXXXXXX|XXXXXXX|XXXXXXX|XXX|
| | | | ========|=======|=======|=======|== |
| | | | X | | | | |
| | | | X | | | | |
|====|======|======|======== | | | | |
|XXXX|XXXXXX|XXXXXX|XXXXXX=======|=======|=======|=======|== |
| | | | X | | | | |
| | | | X | | | | |
|====|======|======|======== | | | | |
| | | | ========|=======|=======|=======|== |
|........................................................... |
| | | | X | | | | |
|====|======|======|======== | | | | |
| | | | ========|=======|=======|=======|== |
| | | | X | | | | |
| | | | X | | | | |
|====|======|======|======== | | | | |
| | | | =======|=======|=======|=======|== |
| | | | X | | | | |
| | | | X | | | | | |
+============================================================+ v
--
hybrid rather than pure; compromising rather than clean; | Militant Agnostic
distorted rather than straightforward; ambiguous rather than| I Don't Know
articulated; both-and rather than either-or; the difficult | and You Don't
unity of inclusion rather than the easy unity of exclusion. | Know Either
Doug Rudoff
[I'm the original poster]
For the 12 foot span local code is 2x10s every 16 inches, or the
Structural Select 2x8s every 8 inches.
I talked to an architect and a contractor, and to do it to code
without losing the just adequate ceiling height in the attic would
require lowering the ceiling in the rooms below. Not a very cheap or
desirable option. Prices quoted were in the more than $20,000 range. I
can't justify spending that much money.
Some people have suggested created wood I-beams or box beams. With all
the extra work and added height with the horizontal cross pieces, I
think I might as well use the high-grade 2x8s.
I'm not sure how I'm going to proceed, but I have about 350 square
feet of quite useable attic space that I'd like to do something with.
patterson,george r
>
>I have a huge attic that one day I'll finish into a useful living
>space. Unfortunately, the person who built the thing decades ago
>decided to use 2x4 at 16 inch centers as joists. 2X10s are the code
>today. I have places in the attic where there is a 12 foot span only
>supported by 2x4s! As you can imagine, the floor bends a bit when
>walked on (there are tongue and groove planks over the joists in the
>attic for a floor).
>
>I know I need to fix this if I'm going to use this space. One thing I
>want to avoid doing is losing ceiling height in the attic, which means
>I stuck with using 2x4s.
You can forget this idea. You will need a minimum of 2x8s to span 12'.
>First of all, I know I need to use high-grade lumber. Is there any
>type or description used for high-grade, stiff lumber?
Different species of wood have different strengths. The top woods are
Southern Pine and Larch (usually sold as Northeastern Douglas Fir). A
2x8 of this group can span 12' 10" on 16" centers. Next in line is
Hemlock (sold as "Fir") and Southern Douglas Fir. A 2x8 of these species
can safely span 11' 4". Last in line are any of the western pines and
cedars, Redwood, and Spruce. One of these 2x8s can span 10' 2". You may
also want to look into the new I-beam type joists which are built up from
2x4s and plywood.
>Pulling out the planks and putting sturdy plywood over the joists
>would stiffen up the floor, right? How thick, 3/4 inch, 1 Inch?
It should do that. Use pine A/C or B/C underlayment grade exterior plywood.
Either get tongue & groove edges or use 2x4 backing boards behind the
joints. I would use 3/4".
>I could add 1, 2 or even 3 extra joists between the existing joists.
>Or I could attach one or two new joists to the side or sides of the
>current joists. Which would be better?
I don't think either will work. It's not the distance between joists
that's the problem here; it's the amount of span.
>(Yes, I know this won't be to code. I do want it safe, however.)
In that case, put in 2x8 Southern Pine joists, 16" on center or closer.
Or those new-fangled plywood joists.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The human race likes to give itself airs.
George Patterson - | One good volcano can produce more greenhouse gases
| in a year than the human race has in its entire
| history. - Ray Bradbury
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Noble
I concur with the suggestion to attach larger floor joists alonside of the
2x4's. Make sure that they are resting on the tops of the bearing walls below
too, not just nailed alongside. The object is that the new joists are going to
carry the load, not the old 2x4's. Then just nail floorboards on top of
the new joists and this should pass code -I don't know what specifically CA
requires...but this in effect make the floor structurally sound as is stepping
in the right direction towards passing code.
amn
--
_ Andrew Noble
| |_ Dallas, Texas
\ * | a...@sdf.lonestar.org
\/ Compuserve: 71165,412
John Wilkinson
> I would look into the cost of the new Laminated Beams, these can supositly
> span a greater distance in less space than any natural wood. If this is
> reasonable for cost, I would "Sister" the 2x4 joists. This is done by laging
> or nailing a new beam to one or both sides of the origional, making sure that
> the new beam completes the weight distribution to the side walls.
>
I have a bunch of literature and span tables for these products. I think
the thing would be to use laminated beam products. One of these mentions
depths as small as 5" but none of the span tables mention anything smaller
than 9 1/2 ".
Most of my info is Canadian, but one US supplier is:
Tectron Laminates Corp.
Port Huron MI
800-825-8120
jcj
>>Dense being listed in various charts ... You may be able to use lower
>>grade stuff...
>Not even these will get you to a 12 foot span. I studied an old span
>table book, and if I recall correctly, standard SPF construction grade
>lumber 2x4s will only get you to about 4.5 feet (for the 40 lb/square foot
>loading required by most codes)...
Perhaps this is in an FAQ, but could someone outline lumber grades?
About all I know is that you're supposed to use SPF studs for new
interior wall construction. (BTW, what's SPF stand for?) Thanks.
J. Johnson
j...@tellabs.com
John Wilkinson
> Perhaps this is in an FAQ, but could someone outline lumber grades?
> About all I know is that you're supposed to use SPF studs for new
> interior wall construction. (BTW, what's SPF stand for?) Thanks.
>
Lumber grading is an inexact science but you have to draw a line somewhere
so engineers and industry came up with some standards based on tensile
strength.
There are tons of rules to guide the process but it has been found that
certain species have greater load bearing capacity than others.
The SPF designation refers to Spruce-Pine-Fir, in actuality very different
trees but close in most applications. It includes 4 Spruce species, a couple
of Pines and a couple of Fir.
For interior use load bearing is usually not an issue, it's more important
that the studs be fairly dry to minimize twist.
If needed, more detail can be given, with help from the Canadian Wood Council.
Topher Eliot
|> About all I know is that you're supposed to use SPF studs for new
|> interior wall construction. (BTW, what's SPF stand for?) Thanks.
As I recall, a new set of tables for spanning distances, etc. were published
within the last 6 months or so, based on a year or two's worth of re-evaluation
of the strengths of different grades, species, etc. Does anyone know where
to get this?
--
Topher Eliot Data General DG/UX Systems Administration Development
(919) 248-6371 el...@dg-rtp.dg.com
Obviously, I speak for myself, not for DG.
misc.consumers.house archivist. Send mail to house-...@dg-rtp.dg.com
Who is this Nosmo guy, and why do so many people want him to be king?
John Wilkinson
> |> Perhaps this is in an FAQ, but could someone outline lumber grades?
> |> About all I know is that you're supposed to use SPF studs for new
> |> interior wall construction. (BTW, what's SPF stand for?) Thanks.
>
> As I recall, a new set of tables for spanning distances, etc. were published
> within the last 6 months or so, based on a year or two's worth of re-evaluati
> of the strengths of different grades, species, etc. Does anyone know where
> to get this?
This may not be quite what you're talking about, I do have all the info
on the latest Canadian Code. There are a lot of differences wrt species, what
size of plywood, and various combos of gluing and screwing.
I did make a table for myself with Quattro, which I can post in ASCII if I
slim it down ( About 120 columns for readability ).
The sources are the Canadian Wood Council, the latest code book and the
Canadian Home Builders Assoc.
I converted all the metric stuff myself and a little while later got the
same thing from CHBA and the Wood Council where someone else did the
conversions.
Oh, well, I know a meter is 3.28 feet.
There is also some good info on grading and species, especially in the
CWC booklet.
..Johnny