shake roofs, fire-proof roofs
Anne Paulson
roofs it seems a good time to post my sad tale.
Our house had a shake roof when we bought it. It needed a new
roof. We wanted to put a fire-proof roof on. We investigated
various kinds of roofs. (Note to the guy from Germany who wondered
why Californians don't use tile roofs: 1) They are expensive.
2) They are heavy; most houses in the Bay Area couldn't have a
tile roof without major reinforcement.) We discovered that
fireproof roofs are about 50% more expensive than shake roofs.
But we decided to go ahead with a Cal-Shake roof. Cal-Shake
is a fireproof shake lookalike that is about 25% heavier
than shake; it is advertised as a shake replacement.
We asked the roofer if our house was strong enough to hold
up the roof, and he assured us that it was. The roof was installed.
About six months later, we noticed that our garage roof was sagging.
A bit later, all the ceilings in the house developed hairline cracks.
We hired a structural engineer, and he said that the new roof was too
heavy, and had to be removed! Our house, like most houses in Los
Altos, has roof beams that are 2x4's on 24" centers; apparently, that's
just not strong enough to hold up a CalShake roof.
So, for those of you planning to replace a shake roof with a
fireproof shake lookalike, *make sure that your house will hold up
the roof*!
--Anne
Phil Ngai
>But we decided to go ahead with a Cal-Shake roof. Cal-Shake
>is a fireproof shake lookalike that is about 25% heavier
>than shake; it is advertised as a shake replacement.
I believe there are lightweight fire proof shake look
roofs that are lighter than Cal-Shake.
--
This posting is purely a personal opinion.
Stephanie Winner
>an...@momenta.com (Anne Paulson) writes:
>>But we decided to go ahead with a Cal-Shake roof. Cal-Shake
>>is a fireproof shake lookalike that is about 25% heavier
>>than shake; it is advertised as a shake replacement.
>
>I believe there are lightweight fire proof shake look
>roofs that are lighter than Cal-Shake.
>
We reroofed 2 years ago and looked at many shake alternatives. One that
is probably lighter than Cal-Shake is HardiShake. I don't think it looks
very much like the real thing though since it is too thin. It looks more
like slate to me. We didn't chose Cal-Shake since we heard they were
quite brittle and break easily. Another brand of Shake look-a-likes is
made be Monier. They are lightweight concrete (heavier than Cal-Shake)
composites which are thick and textured. All the the imitations were too
uniform to look like the real thing.
Since I didn't think any of the shake alternatives actually looked like
real shake (our architect thought we should use shake) we chose a flat
terra-cotta colored concrete tile. It is very heavy since at the time
the lightweight version hadn't come out yet (made by LifeTile). We had
to have the roof joists (or are they called trusses? I forget) reinforced,
but it was quite simple. They just
added a joist between each existing one and covered the roof with plywood
instead of sheathing as they do for real shake. The price was comparable
to shake and the tile is warranteed for 50 years with a Class A fire
rating.
Stephanie Winner
win...@apple.com
Peter Brooks
on ratings his week, and they mentioned three ratings, A,B, & C,
with A being the best.
A: More or less completely fire-resistant, though under some
extreme conditions, can burn. Also, materials like tile
can crack, and leave the decking exposed to embers.
B and C: Less resistant. C is the minimum.
Material like asphalt shingles run in the BC range, though
(I remember) some do have an A rating. Treating wooden shingles
with a retardant generally doesn't get the stuff to pass even the
least of the tests, though it is possible to get to a C (maybe a
B) rating. A built-up tar and gravel roof can be brought to
an A rating, though this requires 9 layers, and sounds both
expensive and very heavy.
There are wood/cement products that have an A rating, and are
relatively affordable. Don't know about weight. The paper also
mentioned a rock-chip coated steel product that has an A rating,
and mentioned that it is the lightest of the class A roofs. (It
also mentioned resale problems "in some communities", though it
gave absolutely no details.) Has anybody heard of the steel stuff?
Pete Brooks
Alan Frisbie
>>roofs that are lighter than Cal-Shake.
We just re-roofed our house after evaluating every product I could
get a sample of. This included testing every product with a propane
torch for 15 minutes. (I'm paranoid about fire.) My evaluations:
Cal-Shake -- Pearlite(?) Very good looking and light weight, but extremely
fragile. My next door neighbor used it and I can see broken
tiles all over after the air conditioning repairman walked on
it.
Hardishake -- The strongest by far, but looks nothing like wood shake.
If you get black, it would make a good imitation slate.
The thinnest (~ .3") of the lot. Very good fire resistance.
Lighter than Cal-Shake.
Concrete fake shakes -- Looks varied, but we rejected them bacause
the roof would have to be reinforced. Some neighbors
reported that their roof sagged anyway. Fire resistance
is fantastic.
Concrete mission "tiles" -- Same as above, but in addition didn't go with
our house. For non-Californians, these are the tiles
that are S-shaped (if you turn your head sideways), and
are usually reddish-colored (but you can get them in almost
any color, including bright blue -- Yuck!).
Maxi-Tile -- A composition mission "tile" about 0.3" thick. Appears
similar to Hardishake, but not as strong. Very good fire
resistance. Rejected only because it didn't go with our
house style. Minor disadvantage is that special edging
is required to keep out birds, squirrels, etc. Lighter than
Cal-Shake.
Cemwood Shake -- Same material in two different styles. Permatek tiles
& Permatek are all the same size, looking rather like many of the
concrete tiles. Cemwood "shakes" come in three widths,
randomly packeged to imitate wood shakes. Strength is
superior to Cal-Shake, but not as good as Hardishake.
Fire resistance is good, but not as good as Maxi-Tile.
After 15 minutes with the propane torch, the heated spot
crumbled when whacked with a rod. About the same weight
as Cal-Shake or slightly more.
All of these materials are available in a variety of "earth-tone" colors,
plus some real off-the-wall colors. (Off-the-roof?)
We finally went with Cemwood Shake because it was the best looking
"fake shake", while still having reasonable strength and fire resistance.
My neighbors agree that it is the best imitation shake they have seen.
The main disadvantage is cost. For 33 (I think) squares, the material
cost was $9300, including new 0.5" plywood sheeting under the entire roof.
Installation was another $3300.
Choosing the roofer was a time-consuming task. I found out too late
that the Better Business Bureau will send you a list of roofers that are
members. I *did* check every prospective contractor with the BBB,
however. Champion Roofs, a large Los Angeles company was rejected because
of unresolved complaints with the BBB. Bilt-Well, another big L.A. firm
was rejected because I had watched them take five weeks to do my neighbor's
roof, plus one of their trucks ran away and knocked over one of my trees.
The California Contractors State License Board publishes a book, "What You
Should Know Before You Hire a Contractor" that I highly recommend. They
can be reached at P.O. Box 26000, Sacramento, CA 95826 (916) 366-5315
The National Roofing Contractors Association will send you a booklet,
"Buying a New Roof", and a list of NRCA members in your area.
Call (800) USA-ROOF
Naturally, I asked for (and talked to) references for all prospective
contractors, as well as looking at jobs they had done. All this work
paid off. My new roof was installed in under four days, and was 95%
perfect at that point. I pointed out the remaining (minor) problems
and the roofer came back as promised a few days later and fixed everything
(except for the item below) to my complete satisfaction.
One problem that wasn't the contractor's fault was the coating on the
Cemwood Shakes. Being their busy season (August), they had not let the
color coating cure long enough before stacking them in bundles. As a
result, the coating would come off (in small amounts) when the shakes were
pulled apart. The contractor called the manufacturer's local
representative who came out the next day. He offered to have the
entire roof re-coated (no charge) with the same material the factory used!
About a month later, a two-man crew arrived and did the job in an hour or
two. It looks great!
When I signed the contract was signed, I paid a $1000 down payment (the
maximum allowed in California). I objected to one clause in the contract
and he simply crossed it off and initialed it. No hassle. I insisted
that before he could start work, I wanted to see the building permit.
He gave it to me. I made sure the contract stated that he was responsible
for all accident and liability insurance. He offered to send me a copy
of his insurance certificate, but I didn't bother.
When the last worker climbed down off the roof, the contractor was there to
collect the remainder. Although he quoted a single price, he had me write
two separate checks, one directly to the supplier. At that time he gave
me conditional (on the check clearing) lien releases from the supplier,
him, and his employees. Because there were minor problems, I withheld $500
until his crew came back to fix them. I simply trusted American Cemwood
to do the re-coating.
The winning contractor is Marvin Lachman, MJL Roofing, 115 Sheldon Street,
Sun Valley (Los Angeles), CA 91352 (818) 897-0656 (800) 334-5550
(818)768-1130 (FAX) This guy is low-key and very easy to work with.
He was the exact opposite of the contractor horror stories I had heard.
The *very* close second choice was Sureway Roofing, 23355 Califa Street,
Woodland Hills, CA 91367 (818) 704-4364 (805) 584-0888
They were very patient and made several quotes with different materials.
On the same day the old roof was removed, I had new insultion blown into
the "attic" crawl space to boost it from ~R5 to ~R30. It cost about $750.
It was done by Everguard Home Insulation (213) 274-5644 (818) 789-7024
WARNING!!!! On the appointed day, a truckload of workers will descend
on your roof with big garden forks to remove your old roof. Every bit
of dust from the last 30 years will filter down into your attic and garage.
If you have gap-style sheeting, even worse will come down. Cover
everything with plastic sheeting before they arrive. Even though I did,
it still took several hours to clean all the debris out of my garage.
I still find old nails when I mow the lawn. :-(
Also, watch out for those big-headed roofing nails. After two months, I
still find them around the house. I found one by running a tire over it.
I suspect that when roofers pick up a nail, if the head is on the wrong
end, they declare it defective and toss it away. :-)
Hint: Fill an ice chest with soft drinks and leave it out for the workers.
I feel that the $40 I spent is one reason my roof is so perfect. They
said, "Gee, the folks in Bel Air don't do this for us."
In short, I did a lot of up-front work and got a fantastic job for it.
--- Alan E. Frisbie Fri...@Flying-Disk.Com (Preferred)
--- Flying Disk Systems, Inc. or ...elroy!flying!frisbie
--- 4759 Round Top Drive or Flying!Fri...@Elroy.jpl.nasa.gov
--- Los Angeles, CA 90065 or Frisbie%Fly...@oxy.edu
--- (213) 256-2575 or ...oxy!flying!frisbie
Gerard Kam
>Re fire ratings: There was an article in the San Jose paper
>on ratings his week, and they mentioned three ratings, A,B, & C,
>with A being the best.
>A: More or less completely fire-resistant, though under some
>extreme conditions, can burn. Also, materials like tile
>can crack, and leave the decking exposed to embers.
>B and C: Less resistant. C is the minimum.
>There are wood/cement products that have an A rating, and are
>relatively affordable. Don't know about weight. The paper also
>mentioned a rock-chip coated steel product that has an A rating,
>and mentioned that it is the lightest of the class A roofs. (It
>also mentioned resale problems "in some communities", though it
>gave absolutely no details.) Has anybody heard of the steel stuff?
>
>Pete Brooks
Several neighbors have installed the "steel stuff" on their
roofs. It's sheets of thin steel about 40" wide by 18" stamped
to look like tile. The original wood shingle (thinner than shake)
roof is left on the house. A lattice of 1x2 lumber is built over
the old roof. The sheets of steel are nailed to the wood lattice.
Special pieces cover the edges and roof hump. There are several
dealers for this stuff; some of the product names are Sierra Tile
and Decra Tile.
My next-door neighbor works for Cal-Shake. He pointed out to
another neighbor that the sheet steel roof alone does not rate
a Class A. I'm not sure, but I think you have to have a plywood
underlayment.
Another light roofing product is ALCOA aluminum shakes. Sheet
aluminum is folded into a wedge shape box to look like a shake.
A styrofoam-like insert is supposed to make it "walkable".
I ended up with Cal Shake because of a discount from my neighbor.
The rooofer was Young's Roofing in Santa Ana.
Gerard
Phil Ngai
>relatively affordable. Don't know about weight. The paper also
>mentioned a rock-chip coated steel product that has an A rating,
>and mentioned that it is the lightest of the class A roofs. (It
>also mentioned resale problems "in some communities", though it
>gave absolutely no details.) Has anybody heard of the steel stuff?
One of my neighbors had one put in. I saw it going on and thought it
looked real nice. I stopped to examine a piece of scrap which
was being thrown away and when I realized what it was, thought
it was a very clever use of materials.
I don't understand why there should be any resale problems.
Except for walking on, it seems like the nearly ideal roof.
--
This posting is purely a personal opinion.
1,000,000 Am386's served.
Ed Taft
this subject last week.
From: hib...@decwrl.dec.com (Cynthia Hibbard)
We had a new roof on our house just about 2 years ago. After making some
enquiries, we decided to try a new Australian product called Hardishake that
was just then on the market. We are very pleased with it, though we haven't
tried setting fire to it.
Initially, we investigated having cedar shake but the advice we got was that
cedar wood is now grown fast and harvested early so the wood now does not
have the density of the older wood. As a result, it splits easily when you
walk on it and, of course, catches fire readily.
Hardishake is best described as lightweight tile. I do not know what it is
made of. The tile has a matt finish and a slightly ridged surface and it
comes in various colours. The product will not burn and will not split when
you walk on it. (You can even paint it if you want to give messages to your
friends in low-flying aircraft.)
I believe it is more expensive than any other roofing material, except
perhaps real slate, but the company claims that if you install it according
to their recommendations you will not need a new roof for 50 years.
Ed Taft ta...@adobe.com ...decwrl!adobe!taft