Re: Price of Shingle removal, two layers vs three
Red Green
news:e1bd87a9-11b1-4ed4...@e8g2000vbz.googlegroups.com:
> On May 16, 11:08 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>> On May 16, 8:59 am, Home Guy <H...@Guy.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Unless you multi-posted your question to alt.home.repair (which
>> > would b
> e
>> > bad because multi-posting is bad) I'm going to cross-post this to
>> > alt.home.repair because the group you posted this to
>> > (misc.consumers.house) gets very little traffic.
>>
>> > pontiusj wrote:
>> > > I got a bid to put in a new roof, and it included removal of
>> > > 2 layers of shingles.
>>
>> > Was it your decision to not remove the original shingles when the
>> > job was done the last time?
>>
>> > > They got to work, and it turns out there were three layers of
>> > > shingles. We got the bill, and they now want to charge us an
>> > > extra $1100 for the removal of the third layer (32 square
>> > > additional tear off at $35/square)
>>
>> > > Is this normal? Is it really so much more work than 2 layers?
>>
>> > It's bad enough to shingle over the existing roof, but to do it
>> > twice i
> s
>> > absolutely nuts.
>>
>> > Based on a typical 3-bundle per square, and a weight of 80 lbs per
>> > bundle, you've got a weight of about 2500 lbs per layer.
>>
>> > That means there is 5000 lbs of extra weight on your roof (more
>> > than a full-size pickup truck).
>>
>> > I'd say that yes, if the roofers were going to remove your top
>> > layer an
> d
>> > what they though was the bottom layer as part of the original
>> > quote, an
> d
>> > now they want to charge you an extra $1000 to remove a third layer,
>> > the
> n
>> > that's not really out of line.
>>
>> Several things:
>> - how come the roofer didn't know? You can see an additional layer
>> from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the
>> ground. - what does the contract say? Does it say removal of
>> existing shingles, or removal of two layers of existing shingles? If
>> it says removal of existing shingles the OP doesn't owe the roofer
>> anything and the roofer will have learned a valuable lesson in not
>> making assumptions and estimates without doing his homework.
>> - if you want to be paranoid and assume the worst, it's possible that
>> the contractor did know about the additional layer and decided to
>> 'discover' it after the job was underway.
>> - removing three layers is definitely more work and expense for the
>> roofer than removing two. If you believe the roofer is shooting
>> straight, and the contract/estimate simply says removal, then split
>> the difference with him. You will both have learned a valuable
>> lesson.
>>
>> R
>
> @Rico:
>
> Contract law 101 huh...
>
> Its opinions like yours that cause contracts to become short novels...
> The longer the contract the less likely the average homeowner
> seeking a repair or improvement is to agree to it... It just isn't
> possible to cover every foreseeable circumstance that might
> arise on a construction site during a project on a few pages
> of contract...
>
> ~~ Evan
You gotta keep in mind, it's the roofer who whips out the contract. He
expects the client to live up to it but he doesn't have to?
tra...@optonline.net
> On May 16, 10:45 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 16, 10:23 am, Harry K <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 16, 7:18 am, Evan <evan.news.re...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On May 16, 9:17 am, pontiusj <joanpont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > The house is 60 years old, and this is the first time we've put a roof
> > > > > on.
> > > > > So the previous owners probably just kept piling on the shingles!
> > > > > We're glad to have them off, but didn't know if the price was right.
> > > > > Thanks for the feedback.
>
> > > > Dude... What did you think, that removing another layer of roofing
> > > > isn't that much more work ? That is 1/3rd more nails, 1/3 more labor,
> > > > 1/3 more weight and volume of debris that has to be disposed of...
>
> > > > Construction debris costs money to dispose of properly -- your
> > > > roofer is not going to absorb that cost as it would eat away much
> > > > of the profit on the job...
>
> > > > This was just one of those surprises that sometimes comes up
> > > > during the process of a project -- the only way you would have
> > > > known about this in advance was to go up on the roof and remove
> > > > shingles until you hit the roof sheathing before you called out
> > > > contractors to submit bids...
>
> > > > ~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I don't see where there is much additional labor involved. You stick
> > > the shingle removng tool (homowners usually use a flat shovel) under
> > > all the layers at the same time. One doesn't remove shingles one
> > > layer at a time.
>
> > > More debris, yes. Labor? Not that I can see. there would be some
> > > but not a lot.
>
> > > Harry K- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > +1 to that.
>
> > Clearly the contractor is entitled to an additional charge. But $1100
> > sounds high to me. There is some additional labor involved, even
> > if it's just hauling the debris to the dumpster, but if it costs X to
> > remove one layer, it surely doesn't cost 2X to remove two
> > or 3X to remove three. I'd say maybe 25% more for each
> > additional layer would be closer.
>
> > Also, while it might cost more for disposal, it might also cost
> > nothing. Dumpster's are frequently contracted out based on
> > size and as long as all the shingles fit, it could cost the same
> > for 2 layers or 3.
>
> No, dumpsters are by size and also the weight of the debris
> removed... You get charged based on both criteria...
Uh huh, you know this for a fact to be true everywhere?
>
> Never seen or heard of a flat rate "dumpster"...
Do, because you've never seen one in your little world,
that means they don't exist? Go figure.
> Maybe you
> are thinking of those cute "bagster" type gimmicky things
> homeowners can buy at the local home center and call for
> removal -- those are designed to burst right on your lawn
> if you overload them...
No, I',m thinking of the one I had dropped in my driveway
and paid for.
tra...@optonline.net
> On May 16, 11:08 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, I guess it's just too much to expect a competent roofing
contractor to have some standard contract terms that spell
out the VERY COMMON contingencies. Like discovering
that there are 3 layers, rather than 2. I'm 100% with Rico
on this one. Any competent roofer should have been able
to easily figure out how many layers of shingles there were.
And if he did the job, then sent me a bill for an extra $1100,
at the very least, I'd negotiate it down before just writing
a check.
An example of a similar situation was when I had my patio
removed and a new stamped concrete one poured. The
guy quoted it and we had a signed contract. Upon going
to remove the old one, it turned out the concrete was a
lot thicker and harder to demo than he expected. He
told me about it and I saw it, but he didn;t try to hit me
up for additonal $$$. That's part of what contractors
are supposed to expect and factor in. Or else spell
out in their contracts. And in the case of our OP,
it would be interesting to know exactly what the
contract says. If it said specifically to remove
TWO layers, then you have a situation where he's
entitled to a reasonable amount for the difference.
IF it just says remove exisiting shingles, then he
should eat it.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more Rico is
right. What a great way to screw customers out
of an additional $1100. Go check it out, see that
it's 3 layers, quote 2, then charge $$$ after the
fact.
tra...@optonline.net
> On May 16, 11:18 am, Evan <evan.news.re...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 16, 11:08 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Several things:
> > > - how come the roofer didn't know? You can see an additional layer
> > > from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the ground.
> > > - what does the contract say? Does it say removal of existing
> > > shingles, or removal of two layers of existing shingles? If it says
> > > removal of existing shingles the OP doesn't owe the roofer anything
> > > and the roofer will have learned a valuable lesson in not making
> > > assumptions and estimates without doing his homework.
> > > - if you want to be paranoid and assume the worst, it's possible that
> > > the contractor did know about the additional layer and decided to
> > > 'discover' it after the job was underway.
> > > - removing three layers is definitely more work and expense for the
> > > roofer than removing two. If you believe the roofer is shooting
> > > straight, and the contract/estimate simply says removal, then split
> > > the difference with him. You will both have learned a valuable
> > > lesson.
>
> > > R
>
> > @Rico:
>
> > Contract law 101 huh...
>
>
> > Its opinions like yours that cause contracts to become short novels...
> > The longer the contract the less likely the average homeowner
> > seeking a repair or improvement is to agree to it...
>
> You just mocked the OP and told him to pay up. Now you're saying the
> roofer's contract omitted mentioning the number of existing layers of
> shingles to be removed so he wouldn't have the homeowner fall asleep
> while reading it.
>
> As far as the additional contract length required to deal with this
> sort of situation...I don't know...three extra words? An additional
> sentence?
>
> "removal of existing roof shingles."
> or
> "removal of existing two layers of roof shingles."
>
> Additional sentence:
> "The project cost includes removal of up to two layers of existing
> roof shingles, and removal of any additional layers will cost an
> additional $1000. each."
>
> It's not asking a lot to have someone reading a contract worth
> thousands of dollars to read and understand that.
>
> > It just isn't possible to cover every foreseeable circumstance that might
> > arise on a construction site during a project on a few pages of contract...
>
>
> Either the roofer messed up honestly, or messed up dishonestly. Your
> position is quite clear - the homeowner is at fault for the roofer's
> lack of smarts or ethics and should just pay up for the roofer's
> mistake. I disagree.
>
> R- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
With you 1000% on this one. Your analysis is perfect.
RicodJour
>
> How it happened, is I got about 4 different quotes for the roof, and
> one contractor told me that I had 2 layers.
> Then, another contractor, in his quote, mentioned taking off one
> layer, I corrected him and he then said he'd take off the 2nd layer
> for another $500, but then his boss called to say it would be
> included. So the quote then said that they would take off two layers.
> So, when they started work, and found the third layer, I was
> expecting to be charged another $500.
> Then the bill came, and the bill was for an extra $1100, so I was
> surprised and I had no way of knowing if he was screwing me, and
> actually charging me for both layers.
> Anyway, sounds like it was about right, so I sent the check in this
> morning, and it's taken care of.
Okay, sounds like it all worked out in the end. You should be aware
that even in the little bit that you posted that there was stuff that
could be misleading and misconstrued. I'm still not clear on why the
contractor asked for $1100 for the third layer, when an additional
layer seemed to go for $500, but what's done is done.
You might have gotten a better final price if you had let the
contractors do their own estimating and let them assume their own risk
for the estimate's accuracy. That is what contracting is - risk
management.
Many times an owner will start 'filling in the blanks' to prove to the
contractor that they are aware of what is going on and how things work
on a particular project. Sometimes that works, other times, not so
much. People that really know what they are doing don't tell the
contractor how to do their job - they only hire people who know how to
do their job. What they do is to control exposure and tweak the price
by using the contract terms. In the end though, it all comes down to
fairness and respect.
Even if the roofer had not charged you extra for that additional
layer, it would have been right of you to kick him something extra out
of a sense of fairness. That is also a good opportunity to take
advantage of other things at your disposal. If you own a business you
could give the roofer a discount on a purchase or something similar
where you can leverage a discount you get and pass it on in way that
the roofer would feel he got full value.
R
IGot2P
> On May 16, 10:45 am, "trad...@optonline.net"<trad...@optonline.net>
> wrote:
>> On May 16, 10:23 am, Harry K<turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 16, 7:18 am, Evan<evan.news.re...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> On May 16, 9:17 am, pontiusj<joanpont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> The house is 60 years old, and this is the first time we've put a roof
>>>>> on.
>>>>> So the previous owners probably just kept piling on the shingles!
>>>>> We're glad to have them off, but didn't know if the price was right.
>>>>> Thanks for the feedback.
>>
>>
>>>> Dude... What did you think, that removing another layer of roofing
>>>> isn't that much more work ? That is 1/3rd more nails, 1/3 more labor,
>>>> 1/3 more weight and volume of debris that has to be disposed of...
>>
>>>> Construction debris costs money to dispose of properly -- your
>>>> roofer is not going to absorb that cost as it would eat away much
>>>> of the profit on the job...
>>
>>>> This was just one of those surprises that sometimes comes up
>>>> during the process of a project -- the only way you would have
>>>> known about this in advance was to go up on the roof and remove
>>>> shingles until you hit the roof sheathing before you called out
>>>> contractors to submit bids...
>>
>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>> the shingle removng tool (homowners usually use a flat shovel) under
>>> all the layers at the same time. One doesn't remove shingles one
>>> layer at a time.
>>
>>> More debris, yes. Labor? Not that I can see. there would be some
>>> but not a lot.
>>
>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>
>> Clearly the contractor is entitled to an additional charge. But $1100
>> sounds high to me. There is some additional labor involved, even
>> if it's just hauling the debris to the dumpster, but if it costs X to
>> remove one layer, it surely doesn't cost 2X to remove two
>> or 3X to remove three. I'd say maybe 25% more for each
>> additional layer would be closer.
>>
>> Also, while it might cost more for disposal, it might also cost
>> nothing. Dumpster's are frequently contracted out based on
>> size and as long as all the shingles fit, it could cost the same
>> for 2 layers or 3.
>
>
> No, dumpsters are by size and also the weight of the debris
> removed... You get charged based on both criteria...
>
Then you have not heard of everything because everyone that I have
rented was based only on the size and how long I kept it.
Don
aemeijers
Chuckle. When I had this place reroofed, I insisted on a full tearoff,
and ran off the companies that wanted me to overlay with those locking
barn shingles. Anyway, when the company I hired stripped the roof, they
found a partial 2nd layer on the front side- previous roofing crew had
stripped in five feet from the edges, and decided that was close enough.
No visible 2nd layer at edges.
--
aem sends...
Colbyt
"IGot2P" <d...@crsales.com> wrote in message
news:f7CdncysjOenIUzQ...@giganews.com...
Going back 20 years or more every one I ever rented was based on size, time
and a weight not to exceed X amount.
Weight over X always entailed extra charges.
Recently those maximums were lowered and a per ton charge was added. so it
might well depend on location like so many prices on the Internet do.
Shingles are heavy and I can see extra charge for a 3rd layer. My personal
opinion is that the amount of work increases in direct proportion to the
layers. Strip a few roofs and get back to me with your opinions.
Colbyt
k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz
>On May 16, 10:23 am, Harry K <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 16, 7:18 am, Evan <evan.news.re...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On May 16, 9:17 am, pontiusj <joanpont...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > The house is 60 years old, and this is the first time we've put a roof
>> > > on.
>> > > So the previous owners probably just kept piling on the shingles!
>> > > We're glad to have them off, but didn't know if the price was right.
>> > > Thanks for the feedback.
>>
When I rented my last dumpster (for a roof job, BTW, though I loaded it with
other crap) they charged by the yard and the ton; X for the dumpster plus Y
per ton. In many cases the transportation costs exceed the dump fees. A
truck can only (legally) carry so much. Trash haulers are often overweight.
Evan
>
> Then you have not heard of everything because everyone that I have
> rented was based only on the size and how long I kept it.
>
> Don
Then you are being charged a price that no one who needed
routine access to dumpsters would ever pay...
Its by size and tonnage when you are getting the best price
possible... If you want to pay someone's mark-up to pay
one price no questions asked, then you take your chances...
Good luck with that...
~~ Evan
RicodJour
> >> On May 16, 11:08 am, RicodJour<ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> - how come the roofer didn't know? You can see an additional layer
> >>> from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the
> >>> ground. - what does the contract say?
>
> Chuckle. When I had this place reroofed, I insisted on a full tearoff,
> and ran off the companies that wanted me to overlay with those locking
> barn shingles. Anyway, when the company I hired stripped the roof, they
> found a partial 2nd layer on the front side- previous roofing crew had
> stripped in five feet from the edges, and decided that was close enough.
> No visible 2nd layer at edges.
Did the second roofer's contract specify the number of layers that
were to be removed and did you end up paying extra? Most likely such
a dodge would still be visible from the street as there would be a
noticeable line running up through the tabs of what I assume were
three tab shingles. And it would certainly be noticeable if someone
got up on the roof. You didn't notice it because you weren't looking
for it, and it wouldn't be your dime. A roofer would be looking for
it, should be getting up on the roof to check flashing and all sorts
of other things before an estimate is made, and unless his contract
covered his ass, and exposed yours, it would be his dime if he didn't
pick up on it.
This is why people should discuss an estimate before signing a
contract. In this particular situation if the roofer's contract
specified the number of layers of shingles to be removed, I'd ask how
he knew how many layers were on the roof, and tell him I'm not buying
a number, I'm buying a completed job, that I don't like surprises, and
that I want the roof stripped and that the price I'm signing is the
complete price including stripping to the sheathing, new edging,
flashing and roofing.
The time to protect your interests is before you sign the contract.
R
RicodJour
> On May 16, 8:07 pm, IGot2P <d...@crsales.com> wrote:
>
> > rented was based only on the size and how long I kept it.
>
> routine access to dumpsters would ever pay...
>
> Its by size and tonnage when you are getting the best price
> possible... If you want to pay someone's mark-up to pay
> one price no questions asked, then you take your chances...
>
> Good luck with that...
Nice back pedal. And why are you trying to compare someone who rents
dumpsters only occasionally with a contractor's pricing where the guy
might be renting several a week?
Evan, you seem to like to paint things in black and white, but there
are a lot of gray areas in construction and in life. People do
different things in different ways in different parts of the country
and allowances for this have to be made in the advice that is given
and taken on this newsgroup.
R
aemeijers
He didn't charge me extra for the partial second layer, or for the few
odd spots of mushy decking. It was a flat-fee job, strip and reinstall
30 year fancy 2-layer shingles. He did cut a few corners I should have
raised a fuss about, like the chimney flashing and the wrong caps for
the fart fans, but mostly did a good job. This was a owner-run place,
just down the road, and they were the only ones that didn't send a damn
salesman to do the estimate.
--
aem sends...
Harry K
> off the roof, load and unload it at the dump. And if the roofer has a
> dumpbody, he didn't get it free.
>
> Have you ever done any roofing beside a patch job maybe?
>
> Before you ask, yes. My last was a couple of years ago. 25sq (3-tab off/
> architectural on) two story, start to finish myself, including all drip
> edge, flashings, valleys, chimney reflash, WSU, soffit and rafter cap
> repairs. And I still don't claim to be a roofer. But it prevents me from
> stating things like
>
> > Labor? Not that I can see. there would be some but not a lot.
>
> time or all at once it's still 7000lbs.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Harry K- Hide quoted text -
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Been a long time. Worked roofing in Texas back in the early 70s.
Reroofed mother's house in...um 80s, remodeled and reroofed my house
in 1984, reroofed garage and sheds in late 90s.
Yes I overlooked the labor costs of cleanup but it is not an
additional 1/3
Harry K
Red Green
news:2af138ad-b5d6-47bc...@k27g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
> On May 16, 8:31 am, Red Green <postmas...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>> Harry K <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> innews:2de65b91-a9b1-4d83-88cb-b1
> 4823b...@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
> in Texas
Give you credit for that one! When I was in NC/SC border, I had the
luxury of putting off any roofing I had to do until October-March. If you
worked roofing in TX in the summer, you must be one crusty ol' fk'r :-)
The last roofing I previously mentioned I did was in northern VT. I think
the avg number of 90+ days here is like 3. I managed to get them all :-(
All July through August in NC/SC, a day not somewhere in the 90's was
rare.
> but it is not an
> additional 1/3
Depends on how old you are. ":-)" again.
Evan
@Rico:
I have probably supervised the rental, filling and removal of
more dumpsters in the ten years I worked for a shopping
mall then you have as a contractor... This includes every
other day emptying of (9) 40 Yd trash compactors, (3) 40
Yd recycling compactor and a once monthly 30 Yd roll off
container of items which would either not fit into the
compactors or would have damaged them...
We owned the compactors so we were only charged a
tipping fee + tonnage... On the rented 30 Yd container,
it was a fee for however many days the container was
at our location + the tonnage of the trash...
If you have different rates, fucking great for you, but
seriously when you are talking tons and tons of trash
weekly it is a different ballgame... You couldn't create
that much trash doing construction without an entire
company of guys working for you including guy(s) who
do nothing but fill the dumpsters all day removing the
debris as other people on the crew rip stuff apart...
Remember, some states are still backwards and not
really into regulating how and where trash is buried
in the ground -- that might have something to do with
the differences in the waste hauling prices...
~~ Evan
Harry K
> Harry K <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:2af138ad-b5d6-47bc...@k27g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 16, 8:31 am, Red Green <postmas...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> >> Harry K <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >> innews:2de65b91-a9b1-4d83-88cb-b1
>
> - Show quoted text -
I didn't work it much, just one contractor who got fired from our
second job.
Old? Dunno but the guy in the next seat in HS was Jesus Christ.
I'm either into masochism or crazy depending on my wife's mood at the
time. Currently workingon cutting 7 big Black Locust out of a
farmstead. That I already have around 40 cords stacked up and really
shouldn't be doing it at my age (approaching 80 way too fast)...
Harry K
Harry K
> Harry K <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:2af138ad-b5d6-47bc...@k27g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 16, 8:31 am, Red Green <postmas...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> >> Harry K <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote
> >> innews:2de65b91-a9b1-4d83-88cb-b1
>
> - Show quoted text -
Forgot to add one comment on the removal subject:
Seems to me that removing 2 of 3 layers would take _more_ removal
labor than taking off all three. I can't even figure out how one
could do it in a reasonably fast method.
Harry K
RicodJour
> On May 16, 10:14 pm, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> > On May 16, 9:42 pm, Evan <evan.news.re...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > On May 16, 8:07 pm, IGot2P <d...@crsales.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Then you have not heard of everything because every one that I have
> > > > rented was based only on the size and how long I kept it.
>
> > > Then you are being charged a price that no one who needed
> > > routine access to dumpsters would ever pay...
>
> > > Its by size and tonnage when you are getting the best price
> > > possible... If you want to pay someone's mark-up to pay
> > > one price no questions asked, then you take your chances...
>
> > > Good luck with that...
>
> > Nice back pedal. And why are you trying to compare someone who rents
> > dumpsters only occasionally with a contractor's pricing where the guy
> > might be renting several a week?
>
> > Evan, you seem to like to paint things in black and white, but there
> > are a lot of gray areas in construction and in life. People do
> > different things in different ways in different parts of the country
> > and allowances for this have to be made in the advice that is given
> > and taken on this newsgroup.
>
> more dumpsters in the ten years I worked for a shopping
> mall then you have as a contractor... This includes every
> other day emptying of (9) 40 Yd trash compactors, (3) 40
> Yd recycling compactor and a once monthly 30 Yd roll off
> container of items which would either not fit into the
> compactors or would have damaged them...
>
> We owned the compactors so we were only charged a
> tipping fee + tonnage... On the rented 30 Yd container,
> it was a fee for however many days the container was
> at our location + the tonnage of the trash...
>
> If you have different rates, fucking great for you, but
> seriously when you are talking tons and tons of trash
> weekly it is a different ballgame... You couldn't create
> that much trash doing construction without an entire
> company of guys working for you including guy(s) who
> do nothing but fill the dumpsters all day removing the
> debris as other people on the crew rip stuff apart...
>
> Remember, some states are still backwards and not
> really into regulating how and where trash is buried
> in the ground -- that might have something to do with
> the differences in the waste hauling prices...
All of that has exactly nothing to do with an individual in another
part of the country informing you that your blanket statement about
how it works in The World Of Dumpsters is not universal. Opinions,
prices and experiences vary. It makes no sense to argue the point.
R
pontiusj
I got a bid to put in a new roof, and it included removal of 2 layers
of shingles.
Home Guy
bad because multi-posting is bad) I'm going to cross-post this to
alt.home.repair because the group you posted this to
(misc.consumers.house) gets very little traffic.
pontiusj wrote:
> I got a bid to put in a new roof, and it included removal of
> 2 layers of shingles.
Was it your decision to not remove the original shingles when the job
was done the last time?
> They got to work, and it turns out there were three layers of
> shingles. We got the bill, and they now want to charge us an extra
> $1100 for the removal of the third layer (32 square additional tear
> off at $35/square)
>
> Is this normal? Is it really so much more work than 2 layers?
It's bad enough to shingle over the existing roof, but to do it twice is
N8N
In fact I didn't even know that it was legal to have three layers of
shingle on a roof (I'm sure that it's not where I live, as I know that
my house had an aluminum roof put on over two layers of shingle by the
PO, which required special permission from the building inspector,) so
the assumption that there were only two is reasonable IMHO.
nate
pontiusj
on.
So the previous owners probably just kept piling on the shingles!
We're glad to have them off, but didn't know if the price was right.
Thanks for the feedback.
Evan
Harry K
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't see where there is much additional labor involved. You stick
the shingle removng tool (homowners usually use a flat shovel) under
all the layers at the same time. One doesn't remove shingles one
layer at a time.
More debris, yes. Labor? Not that I can see. there would be some
but not a lot.
Harry K
tra...@optonline.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
+1 to that.
RicodJour
Several things:
- how come the roofer didn't know? You can see an additional layer
from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the ground.
Red Green
news:4546daac-7b00-4727...@c26g2000vbq.googlegroups.com:
On one hand Evan's previous 2 paragraphs has full merit.
>
> This was just one of those surprises that sometimes comes up
> during the process of a project -- the only way you would have
> known about this in advance was to go up on the roof and remove
> shingles until you hit the roof sheathing before you called out
> contractors to submit bids...
>
> ~~ Evan
On the other hand this particular thing should not be a surprise. What
kind of roofer can't tell how many layers are up there. It's his job to
inspect before giving an estimate. I wouldn't consider this a "hidden"
item that can't be termined by proper visual inspection.
I am not a true roofer so I guess it's possible even a roofer can't tell
when there are more than 2 layers. Help me out "true roofers".
What does the contract say? Remove and dispose of existing shingles or,
as you actually posted, "and it included removal of 2 layers of
shingles."?
As to the additional cost, removing an extra layer is indeed extra labor
and material disposal. Let's give it 225lb/sq based on first paragraph
of:
225*32=7200lbs = 3.6 tons. Where I am, dump fees are generally higher
than avg. - $111/ton which comes to $400 in extra dump fees. So $700/32
is the extra for removal/load/unload labor and transportation, or
$22/sq.
Can I really say that's fair? I don't know but the $700 or $22/sq is the
labor adder (based on dump fees here). I still say the roofer should
have been able to tell up front.
Evan
Umm yes, 3x the number of nails that has to be removed...
Those wonderful roofing scrapers tear the shingles more than they
get the whole thing in one piece with the nails... Especially
with many layers involved...
3x the amount of debris to pick up off the ground and put in a
dumpster...
~~ Evan
Evan
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
>
> Clearly the contractor is entitled to an additional charge. But $1100
> sounds high to me. There is some additional labor involved, even
> if it's just hauling the debris to the dumpster, but if it costs X to
> remove one layer, it surely doesn't cost 2X to remove two
> or 3X to remove three. I'd say maybe 25% more for each
> additional layer would be closer.
>
> Also, while it might cost more for disposal, it might also cost
> nothing. Dumpster's are frequently contracted out based on
> size and as long as all the shingles fit, it could cost the same
> for 2 layers or 3.
No, dumpsters are by size and also the weight of the debris
removed... You get charged based on both criteria...
Never seen or heard of a flat rate "dumpster"... Maybe you
are thinking of those cute "bagster" type gimmicky things
homeowners can buy at the local home center and call for
removal -- those are designed to burst right on your lawn
if you overload them...
~~ Evan
RicodJour
>
> Dude... What did you think, that removing another layer of roofing
> isn't that much more work ? That is 1/3rd more nails, 1/3 more labor,
> 1/3 more weight and volume of debris that has to be disposed of...
>
> Construction debris costs money to dispose of properly -- your
> roofer is not going to absorb that cost as it would eat away much
> of the profit on the job...
>
> This was just one of those surprises that sometimes comes up
> during the process of a project -- the only way you would have
> known about this in advance was to go up on the roof and remove
> shingles until you hit the roof sheathing before you called out
> contractors to submit bids...
Gee, why would a roofer go on a roof in advance? Sheesh. Besides the
fact that you can easily see the third layer of shingles from the
edges and eaves, a roofer's job is to go up on roofs, and there are a
host of reasons that a homeowner should insist that the roofer get up
there to insure that the estimate and contract don't have big gaping
holes in them.
"Just one of those surprises" doesn't fly here. You are talking about
latent and concealed conditions. Deteriorated roof sheathing would be
an example of something that might not be discovered even after
getting up on the roof during the estimate. A third layer is not. An
additional 1/4" thickness or more of roof shingles is quite noticeable
from the edge, and all the roofer would have to do is count to know
for sure. How a roofer could miss a third layer is beyond me, unless
he didn't see the job, simply made a mistake and didn't investigate
adequately, or didn't miss the extra layer and was holding the extra
layer in reserve as an extra.
R
Evan
> - how come the roofer didn't know? You can see an additional layer
> from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the ground.
> - what does the contract say? Does it say removal of existing
> shingles, or removal of two layers of existing shingles? If it says
> removal of existing shingles the OP doesn't owe the roofer anything
> and the roofer will have learned a valuable lesson in not making
> assumptions and estimates without doing his homework.
> - if you want to be paranoid and assume the worst, it's possible that
> the contractor did know about the additional layer and decided to
> 'discover' it after the job was underway.
> - removing three layers is definitely more work and expense for the
> roofer than removing two. If you believe the roofer is shooting
> straight, and the contract/estimate simply says removal, then split
> the difference with him. You will both have learned a valuable
> lesson.
>
> R
@Rico:
Contract law 101 huh...
Its opinions like yours that cause contracts to become short novels...
The longer the contract the less likely the average homeowner
seeking a repair or improvement is to agree to it... It just isn't
possible to cover every foreseeable circumstance that might
arise on a construction site during a project on a few pages
of contract...
~~ Evan
Evan
>
> 225*32=7200lbs = 3.6 tons. Where I am, dump fees are generally higher
> than avg. - $111/ton which comes to $400 in extra dump fees. So $700/32
> is the extra for removal/load/unload labor and transportation, or
> $22/sq.
>
> Can I really say that's fair? I don't know but the $700 or $22/sq is the
> labor adder (based on dump fees here). I still say the roofer should
> have been able to tell up front.
How can you be so certain what you would see from the ground...
I know a homeowner that replaced the drip edges on his roof when
he added a layer of shingles and all you can see from the ground
is a single layer... Something similar may have happened in the
OP's situation...
The only way to *know* with certainty is to do some exploratory
surgery before asking for bids -- or allowing the winning bidder
to verify field conditions to solidify the actual dollar figure...
~~ Evan
mkir...@rochester.rr.com
> In fact I didn't even know that it was legal to have three layers of
> shingle on a roof (I'm sure that it's not where I live, as I know that
> my house had an aluminum roof put on over two layers of shingle by the
> PO, which required special permission from the building inspector,) so
> the assumption that there were only two is reasonable IMHO.
It isn't legal, but that doesn't stop people from doing it. All you
need to do is, do it yourself, or get it done by a shady contractor on
the sly.
I did it on a small section of my roof just to get through the winter,
and the "roofing police" didn't say a word to me.
I was up front with the roofer and warned him about the third layer.
He said "no problem" and didn't charge me extra. Of course it was a
small section, only about two squares.
Red Green
Harry, See my other reply. 3.6 tons. You still have to pick it up, get it
off the roof, load and unload it at the dump. And if the roofer has a
dumpbody, he didn't get it free.
Have you ever done any roofing beside a patch job maybe?
Before you ask, yes. My last was a couple of years ago. 25sq (3-tab off/
architectural on) two story, start to finish myself, including all drip
edge, flashings, valleys, chimney reflash, WSU, soffit and rafter cap
repairs. And I still don't claim to be a roofer. But it prevents me from
stating things like
> Labor? Not that I can see. there would be some but not a lot.
Pick up 7000lbs of anything, load it and unload it. Doing it a piece at a
Red Green
news:f5199f3c-4cb5-4f00...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com:
> On May 16, 11:08 am, Red Green <postmas...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>> Evan <evan.news.re...@earthlink.net> wrote
>> innews:4546daac-7b00-4727-99d3
> -d9ce83...@c26g2000vbq.googlegroups.com:
He needs to get his lazy fucking ass up there!
RicodJour
> On May 16, 11:08 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
>
> > Several things:
> > - how come the roofer didn't know? You can see an additional layer
> > from the edge of the roof, and a roofer can spot that from the ground.
> > - what does the contract say? Does it say removal of existing
> > shingles, or removal of two layers of existing shingles? If it says
> > removal of existing shingles the OP doesn't owe the roofer anything
> > and the roofer will have learned a valuable lesson in not making
> > assumptions and estimates without doing his homework.
> > - if you want to be paranoid and assume the worst, it's possible that
> > the contractor did know about the additional layer and decided to
> > 'discover' it after the job was underway.
> > - removing three layers is definitely more work and expense for the
> > roofer than removing two. If you believe the roofer is shooting
> > straight, and the contract/estimate simply says removal, then split
> > the difference with him. You will both have learned a valuable
> > lesson.
>
> > R
>
> @Rico:
>
> Contract law 101 huh...
No. Contracts 30 Years Experience. On both sides.
> Its opinions like yours that cause contracts to become short novels...
> The longer the contract the less likely the average homeowner
> seeking a repair or improvement is to agree to it...
Curious. You didn't even mention a contract in your earlier posts.
You just mocked the OP and told him to pay up. Now you're saying the
roofer's contract omitted mentioning the number of existing layers of
shingles to be removed so he wouldn't have the homeowner fall asleep
while reading it.
As far as the additional contract length required to deal with this
sort of situation...I don't know...three extra words? An additional
sentence?
"removal of existing roof shingles."
or
"removal of existing two layers of roof shingles."
Additional sentence:
"The project cost includes removal of up to two layers of existing
roof shingles, and removal of any additional layers will cost an
additional $1000. each."
It's not asking a lot to have someone reading a contract worth
thousands of dollars to read and understand that.
> It just isn't possible to cover every foreseeable circumstance that might
> arise on a construction site during a project on a few pages of contract...
This was entirely foreseeable...by the roofer. Entirely.
Either the roofer messed up honestly, or messed up dishonestly. Your
position is quite clear - the homeowner is at fault for the roofer's
lack of smarts or ethics and should just pay up for the roofer's
mistake. I disagree.
R
Red Green
news:9e737e36-15c3-4493...@v31g2000vbs.googlegroups.com:
That's the way they run it here as well.
pontiusj
one contractor told me that I had 2 layers.
Then, another contractor, in his quote, mentioned taking off one
layer, I corrected him and he then said he'd take off the 2nd layer
for another $500, but then his boss called to say it would be
included. So the quote then said that they would take off two layers.
So, when they started work, and found the third layer, I was
expecting to be charged another $500.
Then the bill came, and the bill was for an extra $1100, so I was
surprised and I had no way of knowing if he was screwing me, and
actually charging me for both layers.
Anyway, sounds like it was about right, so I sent the check in this
morning, and it's taken care of.
thanks for the responses.
On May 16, 11:42 am, Red Green <postmas...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
T Payne
Not true the last 2 layers r desentigrating so they don't pop up so easy.
--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/price-of-shingle-removal-two-layers-vs-three-673668-.htm
Jesus
The labor to dispose of 90 more bundles tones 80 lbs each.
--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/price-of-shingle-removal-two-layers-vs-three-673668-.htm
Snicklefritz
not when you pay by weight
Snicklefritz
Where i live just the dump fees would cost about $14.00 per square, and I
would charge $25 to 30 for the labor part of it depending on complex the roof
is. add to that pitch, is it hand carry a long way to trailer or around the
house, ect... So yes it is very resonable price.
T Neuroth
Not that much work? The shingles are nailed into a wood substrate every 4 in
and sometimes more if they have had lifting issues. The shingles are heavy and
you have to use brute force to lift them. You have get underneath a heavy mat
of shingles that are stuck together that are heavy and awkward, then go back
and remove all of the nails left in the deck, manually. The shingles leave
lots of granules on the surface which makes it slippery This is very time
consuming, dangerous on steep pitches and hard work. Do it by yourself for a
day for a reality check.
33YearRoofer
--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/price-of-shingle-removal-two-layers-vs-three-673668-.htm
Josh
%%
<5bc4dc7453fb6568...@example.com> wrote:
> Labor, really some roofs come off decently but others either are melted
> down or in a lot of cases crumble making it take forever and have a huge
> mess instead of being in whole pieces. And you still have a whole roof
> for nails to have to pull and remove if you’re lucky and they’re not
> stapled because then it’s a nightmare. Either way every layer is extra
> work and extra money to remove whether it’s harder it’s still cost money
> for the extra time, and it still cost money for the extra material to
> dispose of.
Peeler
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:
<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin's latest trollshit unread>
--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 88-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
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