Thoughts on SUV Purchase...
Joe
and habit of having 3-5 kids in the car at a time have pushed us towards
owning a SUV of sorts...
Considering the Toyota Highlander or Mitsubishi Outlander (both 2007 or
2008)
Anyone own one? Thoughts?
Anyone have tips on the best time to visit a dealership, etc?
Joe in Northern, NJ - V#8013-R
Currently Riding The "Mother Ship"
http://yunx.com/valk.htm
Ride a motorcycle in or near NJ?
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Paul M. Eldridge
Hi Joe,
If you're determined to buy new and can hold off making your purchase
a little longer, you might be able to negotiate a better deal; these
things are gathering dust on the lot and dealers are becoming
increasingly more desperarate to move 'em, and that includes Toyota.
However, you'd be much further ahead looking at a one or two year old
used model; in today's market, first-year depreciation on a truck or
SUV can be as much as 30 or 40 per cent, so a $30,000.00 new vehicle
could conceivable be worth less than $20,000.00 in as little as twelve
months. There are a lot of SUV owners who are being hard squeezed by
higher gas prices and who are highly modivated to sell, so there are
plenty of deals to be had.
On that note, according to the AAA, the national average of regular
unleaded is now $3.80 a gallon and if either of these vehicle requires
mid-grade you can tack on another 30-cents to that. I don't expect
gas prices to head back down anytime soon given the strong global
demand for oil and falling world production; in fact, I wouldn't be
too surprised to see you hit the $5.00 mark in the not too distant
future (we're already passed that milestone in many parts of Canada).
Just prepare yourself when it comes time to fill-up at the pumps.
Lastly, there appears to be a growing stigma attached to these
vehicles and I think a lot of folks are blaming truck and SUV owners
for the rapid rise in gas prices (SUV = "gas guzzler" = higher demand
= higher prices). Given the souring mood with respect to higher gas
prices and free trade, I might recommend a mini-van instead;
preferably, an American model such as the Dodge Caravan or Chrysler
Town & Country.
Cheers,
Paul
clams_casino
>Hi Joe,
>
>If you're determined to buy new and can hold off making your purchase
>a little longer, you might be able to negotiate a better deal; these
>things are gathering dust on the lot and dealers are becoming
>increasingly more desperarate to move 'em, and that includes Toyota.
>
>
Spring is not typically the best time to buy a car, but there can be
some deals. Many articles suggest buying at the end of the month /
quarter when dealers may need to move some vehicles.
Also, don't rely solely on on-line quotes. Do check newspaper ads. My
current car was almost $1k cheaper via newspaper ad vs. the best on-line
quote I could obtain - with no haggling (Honda).
>However, you'd be much further ahead looking at a one or two year old
>used model; in today's market, first-year depreciation on a truck or
>SUV can be as much as 30 or 40 per cent,
>
Depends what you pay. 30-40% may be valid if one pays list, but I'm
not sure anyone pays list. With a good deal, a car does not have to
lose an appreciable amount over its first 2-3 years - particularly on
popular models.
> so a $30,000.00 new vehicle
>could conceivable be worth less than $20,000.00 in as little as twelve
>months.
>
If you are thinking about trading within 5 years, you should probably
think twice about a GM / Ford/ Chrysler. They do tend to depreciate
significantly due to typically reduced life spans / high maintenance &
repairs after a few years. If you are in it for the long haul, however,
and don't mind some repairs, quick depreciation may not be a
significant factor.
sarge137
Don't have personal experience with either of the makes you mention,
but with respect to purchasing any SUV - late model used, low mileage
will be a much better deal than new. If you can find a nice one
that's two or three model years old you should be able to buy for less
than half of original sticker. Maybe even better these days since
people are trading in perfectly good real cars for hybrids. Even at
over $4 a gallon you can buy an awful lot of gas for the difference in
what those two will cost you. About 18 months ago I bought a loaded
two model year old Jeep Grand Cherokee for just under 17K including
tax and tags.
As to when to buy - most dealerships pay their sales people monthly
and/or quarterly bonuses based on volume, so the end of the month or
quarter will almost always get you the best deal.
Regards,
Sarge
Joe
Hello Paul,
> If you're determined to buy new and can hold off making your purchase
> a little longer, you might be able to negotiate a better deal; these
> things are gathering dust on the lot and dealers are becoming
> increasingly more desperarate to move 'em, and that includes Toyota.
The sales here in NJ are actually *up* compared to two years ago. Go
figure... I had two dealers whip out their sales numbers over the past two
to four years (depending on dealer (Mazda / Toyota) showing the models they
sold, etc. Can you believe the one dealer sells 100+ and sometimes 250+
SUVs a month!!! Incredible... Unbelievable...
> However, you'd be much further ahead looking at a one or two year old
> used model; in today's market, first-year depreciation on a truck or
> SUV can be as much as 30 or 40 per cent, so a $30,000.00 new vehicle
> could conceivable be worth less than $20,000.00 in as little as twelve
> months. There are a lot of SUV owners who are being hard squeezed by
> higher gas prices and who are highly modivated to sell, so there are
> plenty of deals to be had.
I'm looking all over Craigslist, etc and can't find too many 2007 or 2008
models in the Highlander or Outlander... They exist, but if I'm going to
make the leap and pay that $5.00+ a gallon to fill it, I'm going to get
exactly what I want at a good price. Thank God we don't do lots of miles on
the vehicle this is replacing. Maybe 20 or so a week.
> Lastly, there appears to be a growing stigma attached to these
> vehicles and I think a lot of folks are blaming truck and SUV owners
> for the rapid rise in gas prices (SUV = "gas guzzler" = higher demand
> = higher prices). Given the souring mood with respect to higher gas
> prices and free trade, I might recommend a mini-van instead;
> preferably, an American model such as the Dodge Caravan or Chrysler
> Town & Country.
I wish we could go that direction... But the wife is set on a non-minivan
so you know how that goes...
--
Joe
> think twice about a GM / Ford/ Chrysler. They do tend to depreciate
> significantly due to typically reduced life spans / high maintenance &
> repairs after a few years. If you are in it for the long haul, however,
> and don't mind some repairs, quick depreciation may not be a significant
> factor.
Thinking Toyota Highlander or Mitsubishi Outlander... Both will be kept 10+
years unless wrecked or lemons.
--
Paul M. Eldridge
<really-fake...@yunx.com> wrote:
>> Hi Joe,
>
>Hello Paul,
>
>> If you're determined to buy new and can hold off making your purchase
>> a little longer, you might be able to negotiate a better deal; these
>> things are gathering dust on the lot and dealers are becoming
>> increasingly more desperarate to move 'em, and that includes Toyota.
>
>The sales here in NJ are actually *up* compared to two years ago. Go
>figure... I had two dealers whip out their sales numbers over the past two
>to four years (depending on dealer (Mazda / Toyota) showing the models they
>sold, etc. Can you believe the one dealer sells 100+ and sometimes 250+
>SUVs a month!!! Incredible... Unbelievable...
Hi Joe,
Wow, that really is amazing. I wonder how long that trend can be
sustained, as gasoline prices continue their upward march. With
various incentives and rebates now available, there may be a number of
buyers eager to snatch up the bargains, but sooner or later their
numbers will presumably dwindle. Again, if you can hold off making
that purchase a little bit longer, the odds should be in your favour.
>> However, you'd be much further ahead looking at a one or two year old
>> used model; in today's market, first-year depreciation on a truck or
>> SUV can be as much as 30 or 40 per cent, so a $30,000.00 new vehicle
>> could conceivable be worth less than $20,000.00 in as little as twelve
>> months. There are a lot of SUV owners who are being hard squeezed by
>> higher gas prices and who are highly modivated to sell, so there are
>> plenty of deals to be had.
>
>I'm looking all over Craigslist, etc and can't find too many 2007 or 2008
>models in the Highlander or Outlander... They exist, but if I'm going to
>make the leap and pay that $5.00+ a gallon to fill it, I'm going to get
>exactly what I want at a good price. Thank God we don't do lots of miles on
>the vehicle this is replacing. Maybe 20 or so a week.
No question, at just 20 miles a week, that helps the situation
considerably. But unless you plan to keep this new vehicle for some
time, the subsequent loss in its residual value could inflict some
pain. As you can appreciate, depreciation is typically the single
largest expense in ownership and there's really no way you can avoid
the downdraft.
>> Lastly, there appears to be a growing stigma attached to these
>> vehicles and I think a lot of folks are blaming truck and SUV owners
>> for the rapid rise in gas prices (SUV = "gas guzzler" = higher demand
>> = higher prices). Given the souring mood with respect to higher gas
>> prices and free trade, I might recommend a mini-van instead;
>> preferably, an American model such as the Dodge Caravan or Chrysler
>> Town & Country.
>
>I wish we could go that direction... But the wife is set on a non-minivan
>so you know how that goes...
I hear ya. Mini-vans aren't sexy, but they do offer the space and
people carrying capability of a SUV, at a lower price point and,
generally speaking, with much better fuel economy and in some cases
safety.
Good luck!
Paul
Don Klipstein
part:
>No question, at just 20 miles a week, that helps the situation
>considerably. But unless you plan to keep this new vehicle for some
>time, the subsequent loss in its residual value could inflict some
>pain. As you can appreciate, depreciation is typically the single
>largest expense in ownership and there's really no way you can avoid
>the downdraft.
My model for motor vehicle ownership: Drive it less, since I do well
with bicycles. Maintain it well, at least in the areas of working systems
and parts. Blush well and pretty if I have friends or relatives seeing
the paint job crapping out at 12-15 years (which I see being a common
occurrence on roughly-1990 GM cars).
If the darn thing works for 5 years after it was worth $2,000 -$2,500
and does so with with less than 1.5-2 grand in repairs in the 5 years after
depreciating to 2-2.5 kilobucks, then I think this is a bargain.
============================
One thing to keep in mind: A likely major repair item on older cars is
the air conditioning system. Failure of a critical part can accelerate
aging of a few others of this system.
If your "personal business model" is to tolerate a "beater" car, please
figure into this "personal business model" tolerating a car that lacks
functioning air conditioning.
Please keep in mind that a working air conditioning system is a major
part of defogging the windshield during those damp or rainy times when
humidity output of one human body can fog up the windshield 4-10 minutes
or whatever down the road.
My "personal business model" is to have my "primary car" being a
Bianchi "Pista". Since it has no motor until it has a rider, I don't have
to pay $3.80 or whatever per gallon for gasoline. It has no automatic
transmission, no gearbox, no water pump, no air conditioning system, and
no glass parts! Its brakes are comprised entirely of user-serviceable
parts. The entire vehicle weighs approx. 23 pounds (approx. 10.5 kg)
including the basket that I added on. OK, 24 pounds (11 kg) including the
inner tubes that I use as giant rubber bands to get most of a week's worth
of groceries to stay in the basket!
I have done all too much cycling when it is raining at 2 degrees C, and
for that matter worked a job delivering sandwiches by bicycle when all day
and all night it was pouring rain with temperature about -3 C. I made a
bike my car, and I was able to crank out the body heat to keep on trucking
even when my coat made crunching sounds in response to my movements due to
the ice coating! This was about a week into January 1994.
The "day after", when there was about 30 mm (about 1.2 inches) of
smooth wet ice upon most surfaces to drive, cycle or walk upon, and USPO
refused to deliver mail for maybe this only day of its history in SE PA, I
delivered sandwiches (and everything else available from a sandwich shop
with delivery service) by bicycle.
I seem to think that Americans need to remember history, including how
America has a major way of dividing being between "Puritans" and "Freedom-
loving Outlaws"! Keep in mind the "success" of "Prohibition" and the 55
MPH national speed limit!
But also I see that Americans need to remember history in terms of
needing to be "tough" against whatever tries to befell them - such as
need to do their getting around undeterred by big inflation of fuel cost.
I fear that my nation has all too many "modern softies"!
This is all from me at this moment; "Weep-wreep-beep-That's-All-Folks"
until the next day!
- Don Klipstein (d...@misty.com)
Ron Peterson
> I wish we could go that direction... But the wife is set on a non-minivan
> so you know how that goes...
The Hybrid Highlander would be the safest option, but if you are
looking at cost, look at the Kia Rondo or Mazda5.
--
Ron
Paul M. Eldridge
Klipstein) wrote:
>In <gbu1345vduool4l2f...@4ax.com>, Paul M. Eldridge wrote in
>part:
>
>>No question, at just 20 miles a week, that helps the situation
>>considerably. But unless you plan to keep this new vehicle for some
>>time, the subsequent loss in its residual value could inflict some
>>pain. As you can appreciate, depreciation is typically the single
>>largest expense in ownership and there's really no way you can avoid
>>the downdraft.
>
> My model for motor vehicle ownership: Drive it less, since I do well
>with bicycles. Maintain it well, at least in the areas of working systems
>and parts. Blush well and pretty if I have friends or relatives seeing
>the paint job crapping out at 12-15 years (which I see being a common
>occurrence on roughly-1990 GM cars).
>
> If the darn thing works for 5 years after it was worth $2,000 -$2,500
>and does so with with less than 1.5-2 grand in repairs in the 5 years after
>depreciating to 2-2.5 kilobucks, then I think this is a bargain.
Hi Don,
Is your vehicle blue by chance? Dupont had problems with that colour
back in the late '80s and early '90s and there were Chrysler products
(e.g., Reliants, Shadows, etc.) that faded and blistered badly within
the first couple years of ownership.
>============================
>
> One thing to keep in mind: A likely major repair item on older cars is
>the air conditioning system. Failure of a critical part can accelerate
>aging of a few others of this system.
>
> If your "personal business model" is to tolerate a "beater" car, please
>figure into this "personal business model" tolerating a car that lacks
>functioning air conditioning.
>
> Please keep in mind that a working air conditioning system is a major
>part of defogging the windshield during those damp or rainy times when
>humidity output of one human body can fog up the windshield 4-10 minutes
>or whatever down the road.
The a/c on my 2002 300M Special died in year four and the two Chrysler
LHS I owned prior to this had their share of a/c problems as well
(evaporators as I recall). With the exception of the brakes and a/c,
everything else has been, thankfully, rock solid.
>
> My "personal business model" is to have my "primary car" being a
>Bianchi "Pista". Since it has no motor until it has a rider, I don't have
>to pay $3.80 or whatever per gallon for gasoline. It has no automatic
>transmission, no gearbox, no water pump, no air conditioning system, and
>no glass parts! Its brakes are comprised entirely of user-serviceable
>parts. The entire vehicle weighs approx. 23 pounds (approx. 10.5 kg)
>including the basket that I added on. OK, 24 pounds (11 kg) including the
>inner tubes that I use as giant rubber bands to get most of a week's worth
>of groceries to stay in the basket!
>
It's a great way to go, just be safe out there. I don't have to tell
you there are plenty of idiots behind the wheel who aren't paying
proper attention to the road.
Cheers,
Paul
Joe
>> non-minivan
>> so you know how that goes...
>
> The Hybrid Highlander would be the safest option, but if you are
> looking at cost, look at the Kia Rondo or Mazda5.
Went to Mazda and looked at the CX9(?)... Big, Expensive, Lexus-feeling
vehicle... Cost isn't that big of a stumbling block except that I want to
make sure I'm actually getting what I an paying for. We looked at Hyundai
since their ratings are now sky high... Car felt like it was half the
quality of the Mazda at the same price and the Mazda felt like it was 5-10%
below the Toyota...
George
> On Sun, 18 May 2008 17:34:42 GMT, "Joe"
> <really-fake...@yunx.com> wrote:
>
>>> Hi Joe,
>> Hello Paul,
>>
>>> If you're determined to buy new and can hold off making your purchase
>>> a little longer, you might be able to negotiate a better deal; these
>>> things are gathering dust on the lot and dealers are becoming
>>> increasingly more desperarate to move 'em, and that includes Toyota.
>> The sales here in NJ are actually *up* compared to two years ago. Go
>> figure... I had two dealers whip out their sales numbers over the past two
>> to four years (depending on dealer (Mazda / Toyota) showing the models they
>> sold, etc. Can you believe the one dealer sells 100+ and sometimes 250+
>> SUVs a month!!! Incredible... Unbelievable...
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> Wow, that really is amazing. I wonder how long that trend can be
> sustained, as gasoline prices continue their upward march. With
> various incentives and rebates now available, there may be a number of
> buyers eager to snatch up the bargains, but sooner or later their
> numbers will presumably dwindle. Again, if you can hold off making
> that purchase a little bit longer, the odds should be in your favour.
I think there are two things in play. One is NJ has the highest per
capita wealth in the US so there are a number of people who can afford
whatever they want no matter how wasteful it is. So when it is time to
buy their new his and hers fluffed up trucks each year to haul
themselves and their coffee around cost/waste/efficiency etc are all
very secondary considerations.
Second are the people who associate any change in what they do as
destroying their "freedom" (no one is going to tell *ME* what to do). So
they will do anything to rationalize driving a big fluffed up truck to
haul themselves and their large coffee around no matter how silly and
expensive it becomes.
Cheapo Groovo
@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, r...@shell.core.com says...
Paul M. Eldridge
trading and the national average for regular unleaded now stands at
$3.80, with media reports telling us it could reach the $4.00 mark by
Memorial Day (only 20-cents to go!).
Locally, we're paying $1.339 per litre which works out to be $5.07 per
gallon, but in other parts of Canada it's even higher (e.g.,
$1.411/litre in Yellowknife).
Cheers,
Paul
jd
>>> I wish we could go that direction... But the wife is set on a
>>> non-minivan so you know how that goes...
It's weird that so many people hate minivans. Most minivans look better
than most SUV's. Plus a minivan is cheaper, gets better gas mileage, and
holds a lot more people/cargo than an SUV.
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Joe
Can't make the 70 mile commute on a bicycle so I presume you mean a
motorcycle... And I already have one. my car gets better mileage and costs
less to maintain, etc.
Joe
> wealth in the US so there are a number of people who can afford whatever
> they want no matter how wasteful it is. So when it is time to buy their
> new his and hers fluffed up trucks each year to haul themselves and their
> coffee around cost/waste/efficiency etc are all very secondary
> considerations.
>
> Second are the people who associate any change in what they do as
> destroying their "freedom" (no one is going to tell *ME* what to do). So
> they will do anything to rationalize driving a big fluffed up truck to
> haul themselves and their large coffee around no matter how silly and
> expensive it becomes.
Agreed and agreed... As I was driving home in my 1997 Sentra, missing a hub
cap and with the engine warning light on due to some unknown problem... I
wondered how many miles past 170,000 it would get before it died and I
needed to get myself a new beater commuter vehicle. Then I noticed the car
in front of me and the one directly to my left were both Masarati four
seater coupes. Something like a SportGT? I couldn't read the emblem
between the door posts...
Luckily, we need the SUV only for capacity and not for distance. My wife
drives about 20 miles a week total so it's going to get lots of use with the
multiple kiddies and my trips to Home Depot, but it won't cost me a million
$$$ in gas as if I were using it for my 70 mile round trip commute.
Cindy Hamilton
You seem to have forgotten that the OP said his wife would be hauling
3-5 kids around in the SUV.
Seerialmom
No one mentioned it so I will. Since your wife won't be driving all
that much and you will "sometimes" go to Home Depot with it, consider
an alternative to the SUV or even a minivan: a 4 door hatchback.
Listing a few that would be considerably cheaper (and can probably get
certified/preowned for even less):
Toyota Matrix 25city 31 hwy
Pontiac Vibe (same as above, just branded different) 25 city 31 hwy
Scion XB 26 city 31 hwy
PT Cruiser (dime a dozen these days) 19 city 25 hwy
Jeff
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 05:14:08 +0000 (UTC), d...@manx.misty.com (Don
> Klipstein) wrote:
>
>>
>> One thing to keep in mind: A likely major repair item on older cars is
>> the air conditioning system. Failure of a critical part can accelerate
>> aging of a few others of this system.
>>
>> If your "personal business model" is to tolerate a "beater" car, please
>> figure into this "personal business model" tolerating a car that lacks
>> functioning air conditioning.
>>
>> Please keep in mind that a working air conditioning system is a major
>> part of defogging the windshield during those damp or rainy times when
>> humidity output of one human body can fog up the windshield 4-10 minutes
>> or whatever down the road.
>
> The a/c on my 2002 300M Special died in year four and the two Chrysler
> LHS I owned prior to this had their share of a/c problems as well
> (evaporators as I recall).
Oh man, that sounds like a nasty repair. Got to be hard to get at.
I suppose a lot can go wrong with ACs. GFs just went into instant death.
Turned out to be the clutch, which is a $100 part, new. I'll look to see
what the bone yard offers as that doesn't seem like a part that fails
often. Here in Atlanta, no AC is a big problem.
Jeff
Paul M. Eldridge
Hi Jeff,
I was fortunate that my Chrysler dealer took care of the problems with
the two LHS at no charge -- one was covered under the standard
three-year warranty (just under the wire) and the other by an extended
warranty on this specific part. I haven't bothered to see what's
wrong this time -- if I were still living in Toronto it would have
been fixed pronto, but here on the east coast we don't put away our
scarves and mittens until late June, so it's not that big an issue.
:-)
Cheers,
Paul
P.S. Crude oil is up another $4.69 a barrel, currently standing at
$133.67.
Ron Peterson
> It's weird that so many people hate minivans. Most minivans look better
> than most SUV's. Plus a minivan is cheaper, gets better gas mileage, and
> holds a lot more people/cargo than an SUV.
The crossover SUVs are very similar to minivans having front wheel
drive and based on a car's platform with unibody construction.
I am disappointed that there aren't any hybrid minivans being marketed
in the USA.
Before I retired, I biked to work when conditions were appropriate.
Now, I use the minivan to haul the bikes to some scenic bike trail.
--
Ron