property tax appeal denied
Ohioguy
valuation at the most recent sales price for about 3 years
automatically, before it started inching up a bit.
This time around, me moved to a new city, and we purchased a house at
public auction through HUD. We got the high bid at public auction, and
I thought it would be a similar situation - submit complaint against
their valuation of the property, along with proof of the amount paid as
highest in a public auction for the property.
After waiting 4 months (they supposedly misplaced my original hearing
info, and had to set a new date when I called to ask for the results),
today I got their answer in a certified letter: no change at all. This
is despite the fact that several years before we bought it, it sold for
$113K+, and we got it for $60k this year. (including roughly $6k paid as
commision to real estate agent)
Since we paid roughly 47% less than it had sold for a number of years
back, I figured that conservatively at least a 1/3 decrease in our
property taxes could be expected. In fact, I counted on this, since the
taxes on the last place we owned were based on exactly how much we had
paid. I assumed this was normal, since it was quite easy to show how
much was paid, and further, since a public auction leaves a very public
record of how much buyers are willing to pay for a property. (hence, its
value)
Technically, since the purchase, repairs have been done that would
likely increase the value of the property. In fact, these repairs were
part of the rehab loan, and became part of our mortgage. However, even
if I used this more pessimistic valuation, or mortgage total is only
$80k - and should still merit a significant discount on the property
valuation.
Now I'm told that "have the right to appeal" within 30 days if I
would like to. Yes, I would like to. However, I'm not sure which route
would be the best way to go:
A) Ohio Board of Tax Appeals
or
B) Montgomery County Common Pleas
I'm also not sure if a negative judgment in one of those would
preclude us from using the other?
I guess I was assuming this would be fairly easy, with the
straightforward and recent purchase price info I had submitted, showing
how much we paid for the place at a public auction.
Anyone ever gone through this sort of thing before? If it were you,
what steps would you take to make your case?
If I succeed, I should be able to save somewhere between 30% and 45%
off of our annual property taxes.
Jeff Thies
> The last time we purchased a house, the city set the property
> valuation at the most recent sales price for about 3 years
> automatically, before it started inching up a bit.
In theory it is an appraisal, in practice it is comps and may take a
while to catch up. Have you looked to see taxes your neighbors are
paying? Are you out of line? What do sales look like?
Sales can be all over the place, what is selling now is on the cheap,
and much of that is cash as mortgages aren't easy to come by. Hardly
fair market value.
I have a house I'm buying for $17K assessed at $131K, the math is
different now.
Jeff
Napoleon
> After waiting 4 months (they supposedly misplaced my original hearing
>info, and had to set a new date when I called to ask for the results),
>today I got their answer in a certified letter: no change at all. This
>is despite the fact that several years before we bought it, it sold for
>$113K+, and we got it for $60k this year. (including roughly $6k paid as
>commision to real estate agent)
Unfortunately, that is the way it is in America now. We just built a
house (2 measly bedrooms and 1 bath), and are way over-assessed at
130,000. So we went to the worthless Town of Sullivan assessor board
and had all the comps (sales and non-sales), put out in a spreadsheet,
that was easy to follow and guess what the board did? Nothing. It
looked at none of the documents and uniformily dropped 5k from
everyone's assessment that had come to complain. Yes, that was fair.
Oh, and they also lost our other assessment complaint for a vacant lot
and I had to call later and yell at the assessor. Useless. Senile.
Incompetent. I told the assessor that I want to be on the board to get
rid of those worthless people - surprise! I never heard back from her.
Anyways we are now appealing the decision.
> Technically, since the purchase, repairs have been done that would
>likely increase the value of the property. In fact, these repairs were
>part of the rehab loan, and became part of our mortgage. However, even
>if I used this more pessimistic valuation, or mortgage total is only
>$80k - and should still merit a significant discount on the property
>valuation.
The same with us. It cost us about $103,000 for the house (modular),
and another 40,000 for the foundation, excavating and utilities.
Everyone knows you can't sell your house for what you paid to build
it. It's the same as if you bought a new car and expected to sell it
for the price you paid. Ha, ha, ha. This is not 2006.
Assessment is the fair market price someone would pay for the house.
That's it. Not what you could build it for.
>
>A) Ohio Board of Tax Appeals
>B) Montgomery County Common Pleas
> I'm also not sure if a negative judgment in one of those would
>preclude us from using the other?
Not sure how Ohio works but in NY we're going small claims (Small
Claims Assessment Review). It probably doesn't matter which way you go
as long as you have all your comps and sales comps set out. All they
look at is comps. Or... they should. Again, in our case, the town
board looked at nothing, which is why we are appealing. Now we are
having a hearing with an appraiser (which should be fun). Any
appraiser with a brain would conclude that a 2 bdrm, 1 bath house on a
.19 acre lot in a crappy area of town is not worth 130,000. But then
people can do whatever they want to do.
> Anyone ever gone through this sort of thing before? If it were you,
>what steps would you take to make your case?
> If I succeed, I should be able to save somewhere between 30% and 45%
>off of our annual property taxes.
We're going through this now - the hearing is next week (after we
dropped the first hearing officer who was a liar and useless as a
post). I expect that the hearing will allow us to present our side
showing all the comps and sale comps, plus our explanation of why we
are suing, since the town assessor board is incompetent and unfair. I
know the assessor will counter with the argument that all the comps
should be assessed higher, but that doesn't matter to us, since until
ALL PROPRETIES are reassessed, our property has to be fairly assessed
with the current assessments of comp properties.
Also, make sure you read the laws and rules regarding what documents
you need to send in and to whom, since the other side can get the case
dismissed if you don't dot all your i's and cross your t's. It's
fairly simply, but takes time to compile all the stats and of course
it's going to cost you some money ($30 in our case to file).
In the hearing state your case clearly and concisely. A spreadsheet
showing your property vis-a-vis all other comps is perfect for the
hearing officer (he/she just might read it!). Let the assessor state
its side and then counter any points the assessor makes to wrap up.
We hope to save about the same amount on our property taxes, which in
NY is substantial.
Oh, BTW, we just got a letter in the mail from the assessor, stating
she is reassessing all the properties in the town. HA HA HA! Can't
wait to see that happen. She just did that because of our court case.
We are the ONLY people who have ever appealed in the town.
John Weiss
> Now I'm told that "have the right to appeal" within 30 days if I
> would like to. Yes, I would like to. However, I'm not sure which
> route would be the best way to go:
>
> A) Ohio Board of Tax Appeals
>
> or
>
> B) Montgomery County Common Pleas
>
> I'm also not sure if a negative judgment in one of those would
> preclude us from using the other?
>
> I guess I was assuming this would be fairly easy, with the
> straightforward and recent purchase price info I had submitted,
> showing how much we paid for the place at a public auction.
>
> Anyone ever gone through this sort of thing before? If it were you,
> what steps would you take to make your case?
>
> If I succeed, I should be able to save somewhere between 30% and 45%
> off of our annual property taxes.
I've done it in King County, WA, but not in OH. Follow the appeals
process that is outlined on your assessment TO THE LETTER. Send all
correspondence via certified mail, return receipt, and keep copies.
While a real estate agent's "market analysis" may be of some help, I
found out the hard way that only a formal appraisal will be fully
recognized by the appeal board. If the cost of the appraisal is more
than the tax savings, there is little sense in filing the appeal.
Bob F
>
> I've done it in King County, WA, but not in OH. Follow the appeals
> process that is outlined on your assessment TO THE LETTER. Send all
> correspondence via certified mail, return receipt, and keep copies.
>
> While a real estate agent's "market analysis" may be of some help, I
> found out the hard way that only a formal appraisal will be fully
> recognized by the appeal board. If the cost of the appraisal is more
> than the tax savings, there is little sense in filing the appeal.
I did it with no assesment. I found comps for similar size lots (mine is big)
and detailed why my property was worth less (house size, age, view) even though
the comp sold for less than my assessment. All the data came from the King
County WA records of property sales for the beginning of the appropriate year. I
managed to knock off about 1/3 of their assessment.
h
"John Weiss" <jrw...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:i4hmse$m44$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> While a real estate agent's "market analysis" may be of some help, I
> found out the hard way that only a formal appraisal will be fully
> recognized by the appeal board. If the cost of the appraisal is more
> than the tax savings, there is little sense in filing the appeal.
>
Unless your town has crooked appraisers, a private appraisal will most
likely value your house higher than the town does. So...you're out the money
with no tax reduction.
Someone should tell the Flyover State Tax Evader to STFU and pay what he
owes. If he spent as much time earning money as he does bitching about the
price of EVERYTHING, he'd be able to pay his bills.
Napoleon
wrote:
>Someone should tell the Flyover State Tax Evader to STFU and pay what he
>owes. If he spent as much time earning money as he does bitching about the
>price of EVERYTHING, he'd be able to pay his bills.
>
You're not saying that everyone should just pay whatever the idiot tax
assessor says your property is worth, are you? Nah. You couldn't be
saying that. Because we all know that tax assessors are oh so smart
and oh so fair!
There's a reason why there is an appeals process for tax assessments,
and lo and behold, here in NY the majority of people have the
assessment reduced (actually in my research I haven't come across
somebody who didn't say their assessment wasn't reduced).
This is a frugal newsgroup and property taxes are ONE area that
deserve to be talked about here. You can save serious money and make
the assessment system fairer for everyone when you appeal unfair
assessments.
terrable
"Napoleon" <ana...@666yes.net> wrote in message
news:857q66tr82ruthfdd...@4ax.com...
You can read about how property assessors "work" in PA here
http://www.thecommonman.com/
Ohioguy
> owes. If he spent as much time earning money as he does bitching about the
> price of EVERYTHING, he'd be able to pay his bills.
You know, I'm getting rather sick of people using that term. For one
thing, it implies that there is nothing worth experiencing between the
country's two coasts, despite the fact that most of the country's
residents live there. For another, it seems to be used primarily by
rich snobs who feel they are above the rest of us. (hence, they couldn't
possibly be troubled to actually drive through and experience life like
everybody else)
Anyway, yes, I do tend to try to pay less for most everything. Hence
my being involved in this Usenet newsgroup since about 1993. Especially
on something like a recurring fee, I'm going to try to save if I can.
Taxes certainly qualify! I CAN pay my bills - I'd just prefer to keep
some of the money and spend it on other things.
As I said, my previous experience with property tax was where we
lived until about 5 months ago. That city automatically adjusted the
tax to match the price we paid. That lasted for about 3 years before
the taxes started going up. Evidently that isn't how things work
county-wide. (we're still in the same county, just a different city)
I did a bit of research, and found out our neighbor to the north is
paying about 25% less in taxes than we are. The house has the same
number of bedrooms, and sold for in the same neighborhood as ours. It
is also in about the same shape, and is the same age. Can I use this as
part of the argument to get our taxes lowered?
h
"terrable" <terr...@terrable.net> wrote in message
news:EHfbo.18820$EF1....@newsfe14.iad...
>
> "Napoleon" <ana...@666yes.net> wrote in message
> news:857q66tr82ruthfdd...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:48:10 -0400, "h" <tmc...@searchmachine.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Someone should tell the Flyover State Tax Evader to STFU and pay what he
>>>owes. If he spent as much time earning money as he does bitching about
>>>the
>>>price of EVERYTHING, he'd be able to pay his bills.
>>>
>>
>> You're not saying that everyone should just pay whatever the idiot tax
>> assessor says your property is worth, are you? Nah. You couldn't be
>> saying that. Because we all know that tax assessors are oh so smart
>> and oh so fair!
>>
>> There's a reason why there is an appeals process for tax assessments,
>> and lo and behold, here in NY the majority of people have the
>> assessment reduced (actually in my research I haven't come across
>> somebody who didn't say their assessment wasn't reduced).
>>
No, of course not, and I live in NY where assessments need to be challenged
every time, since my county's school tax rates-to-value are in the 10 ten IN
THE NATION, while our incomes are in the bottom 30%. Even Scarsdale pays
less per valuation than we do here in rural upstate NY.
However, I've read enough from Flyoverstateasshole to know that he's a tax
evader of the first order and hates to pay what he owes for ANYTHING. That
moron bitches about paying $1.39 a pound for ground turkey. Why anyone would
do anything except grind it themselves is beyond me, but that's the
Flyoverstateasshole for you. He's even devoted several threads to trying to
promote his "blog" about local restaurants in order to raise money. As if
anyone, anywhere, cares what he thinks about anything. He's from the
mid-west for crissakes. He buys pre-packaged ground turkey, yet thinks
anyone cares about his "restaurant reviews". Obviously knows "a lot" about
"fine dining". Not. What a douche. Blech.
Vic Smith
wrote:
Exactly right.
Don't know about the "fair" part though.
If my RE taxes were lower than they are I might not bother.
I know some rural areas have pretty low real estate taxes, so you have
to balance the saving against the effort.
But I pay +$4k so the savings can be substantial.
Here (suburban Cook County, Il) there are lawyers whose sole practice
is to appeal assessments.
I was mail-solicited by the one I use after buying my house and before
my first assessment, which happens every 3 years here.
There was one other who solicited me.
Luckily, it's easy here to find your neighborhood assessments via the
Assessor's website.
Since I was paying about $500 more than a neighbor with a similar
house I filled out the lawyers simple forms and sent a check.
Just got his forms in the mail for the fourth time.
He gets $50 unrefundable up front then 50% of the savings of the first
year of the 3 year assessment.
I don't really know how much he's saved me, but I think the neighbor's
taxes passed me up about 8 years ago.
It's on my to-do list to look at the assessor's website and make sure
I'm still in the ballpark.
Last assessment I paid the lawyer $150 after he sent his appeal
paperwork to me, showing he saved me $300 a year.
Think I paid him about $300 on an earlier assessment, but I'd have to
dig that up to confirm it.
Truthfully, I'm putting some blind trust in him that he's saving me
money.
Can't say I ever really figured out the tax forms he sends me.
Too many formulae. Too arcane for me.
Talked to one of his office people once but she was no help.
But my taxes haven't gone up much in 12 years, and paying him is
easier than doing this crap myself, which is the kind of work I just
hate doing.
Besides, I figure he has big edge over me in doing it.
Maybe he keeps my taxes lower than they would be by kicking back
dinners, gifts, and even cash to the assessors office.
Or maybe he can really hassle them and cause them grief so they
comply to some point with him.
Then there's always the possibility he's just got me bent over.
Anyway, that's why I said I don't even know what's "fair."
Think I'm going on the assessors website to take a look before I send
him the triennial check this time.
But maybe not.
You might find it worth it to pay a tax lawyer to do these appeals.
Works for me - I think.
--Vic
MAS
> No, of course not, and I live in NY where assessments need to be challenged
> every time, since my county's school tax rates-to-value are in the 10 ten IN
> THE NATION, while our incomes are in the bottom 30%. Even Scarsdale pays
> less per valuation than we do here in rural upstate NY.
>
> However, I've read enough from Flyoverstateasshole to know that he's a tax
> evader of the first order and hates to pay what he owes for ANYTHING. That
> moron bitches about paying $1.39 a pound for ground turkey. Why anyone would
> do anything except grind it themselves is beyond me, but that's the
> Flyoverstateasshole for you. He's even devoted several threads to trying to
> promote his "blog" about local restaurants in order to raise money. As if
> anyone, anywhere, cares what he thinks about anything. He's from the
> mid-west for crissakes. He buys pre-packaged ground turkey, yet thinks
> anyone cares about his "restaurant reviews". Obviously knows "a lot" about
> "fine dining". Not. What a douche. Blech.
>
>
Sounds like residents*** of NY are a bunch of self-absorbed whiners.
It's a frugal newsgroup, moron. Skip his posts if they raise your blood
pressure that much. Jeezus.
***maybe only this resident - if you're from NY and this doesn't apply
to you, please ignore.
MAS
> I did a bit of research, and found out our neighbor to the north is
> paying about 25% less in taxes than we are. The house has the same
> number of bedrooms, and sold for in the same neighborhood as ours. It is
> also in about the same shape, and is the same age. Can I use this as
> part of the argument to get our taxes lowered?
In my area, the last time I contested the amount (and won), they told me
they base their assessment solely on square footage. Show me a real
estate agent who does a drive-by and guesses what a home is worth.
They're even "training" some sheriffs to do assessments - how
professional is that?
Marsha
Napoleon
> I did a bit of research, and found out our neighbor to the north is
>paying about 25% less in taxes than we are. The house has the same
>number of bedrooms, and sold for in the same neighborhood as ours. It
>is also in about the same shape, and is the same age. Can I use this as
>part of the argument to get our taxes lowered?
That's a comp. You need four more of those. Plus five more comps for
actual sales, preferably in the last two years. Of course people can
always ignore your comps (which is what the town board did to us). But
at least you pointed out the unfairness, and can keep going back to
the assessor board every year with the same info if they refuse to
lower your assessment comparable to the comps.
Napoleon
>In my area, the last time I contested the amount (and won), they told me
>they base their assessment solely on square footage. Show me a real
>estate agent who does a drive-by and guesses what a home is worth.
>They're even "training" some sheriffs to do assessments - how
>professional is that?
I have no clue what they base the assessments on in my area. I think
it is the PIOOYA formula (pull it out of your ass). That's what I'm
going to the hearing to find out. I want the assessor to tell me why
our house is assessed as it is, while all other comps are much lower.
My mother also owns an OLD camp next to the new house which is also
way over-assessed (that will be appealed next year). If they base the
assessment on the age of the house, then the town should be paying my
mother a refund on her taxes.
Yup, can't wait to hear what the assessor says. It'll be fun.
tmclone
STFU and pay what you owe!
tmclone
>
> - Show quoted text -
PLONK! oh wait, your're already dumped on Outlook. Bye bye. Again.
Ohioguy
See, that's the thing - as a frugal person, is it better to just "pay
what you owe", or to challenge your taxes when you find out you're
paying about a 28% higher rate than your neighbor?
My neighbor has a house that roughly matches ours - built 1 year
later, square footage within 100 feet, same # bedrooms, same condition,
etc. Yet she is paying quite a bit less on her taxes than everyone else
on the street.
And yesterday, I found out why. I was helping her in her back yard,
and somehow the topic came up. Turns out she just successfully
challenged her taxes back in April - which is why she has the lowest
taxes around.
I guess you could look at it two ways. Either feel bad that she's
"not paying her fair share", or else take the tea party approach, like
our ancestors did. Yes, our whole country exists in part due to a
desire to minimize taxation.
Napoleon
> See, that's the thing - as a frugal person, is it better to just "pay
>what you owe", or to challenge your taxes when you find out you're
>paying about a 28% higher rate than your neighbor?
Apparently in the "new century" USA, you STFU and pay what the
Fatherland tells you to.
> And yesterday, I found out why. I was helping her in her back yard,
>and somehow the topic came up. Turns out she just successfully
>challenged her taxes back in April - which is why she has the lowest
>taxes around.
Bingo! That's why we are appealing our assessment. See, they always
jack up assessments on new houses that are built. When we went to the
useless and senile town board to complain ALL the people there were
new construction. That's why your neighbor appealed, she had just
built a house.
> I guess you could look at it two ways. Either feel bad that she's
>"not paying her fair share", or else take the tea party approach, like
>our ancestors did. Yes, our whole country exists in part due to a
>desire to minimize taxation.
Nah, it's a new century! Pay what you owe dude! The only thing is WE
WILL TELL YOU WHAT YOU OWE! There is no such thing as fair taxation,
any taxation is fair in 2000 America. Get with the program!
Anyways, next year I'm going to start my own business and file tax
appeals for all my neighbors when the assessments are jacked up from
the stupid tax assessor. My neighbors are so stupid, they don't have a
clue how to fill out the paperwork and find comps. This will be a
great business, and I'll be able to piss off the local government too.
Ohioguy
>built a house.
Actually, hers was built in 1980, I believe, and ours in 1979. Money
got tight, and so she tried to decrease her taxes - simple as that.
> clue how to fill out the paperwork and find comps. This will be a
> great business, and I'll be able to piss off the local government too.
Not sure if you really want to do that - they could turn around and
make your life miserable in return, couldn't they? However, I do
understand what you are saying about helping everyone else around save
on the taxes. I suppose once 4 or 5 neighbors have knocked the taxes
down, it would be easier for neighbors to use.
Also, guess what? I measured the living area in my house, adding a
couple of feet just to be pessimistic. It turns out the living area is
a full 20% less than what it says on the auditor's website!
MAS
> Also, guess what? I measured the living area in my house, adding a
> couple of feet just to be pessimistic. It turns out the living area is a
> full 20% less than what it says on the auditor's website!
Your auditor's website gives room measurements? All ours has is total
square footage.
Marsha
h
"MAS" <m...@bbbb.net> wrote in message news:i547gt$goc$1...@news.datemas.de...
> Your auditor's website gives room measurements? All ours has is total
> square footage.
>
Huh? All rooms aren't mapped to the millimeter where you live? Weird! They
spent 45 minutes re-mapping my weirdly shaped acre when they re-evaluated
all properties, even with the survey stakes showing in all 9 corners (told
you it was weird).
Bob F
A comp is a comparable sale. To be relevent, the comps should be around the
assessment time. That is, they should be sales that occured within a couple
months of the assesment date. In my case, that date is Jan 1 of the year the
assessment was received.
Bob F
>> new construction. That's why your neighbor appealed, she had just
>> built a house.
>
> Actually, hers was built in 1980, I believe, and ours in 1979. Money got
> tight, and so she tried to decrease her taxes - simple as
> that.
>
>> clue how to fill out the paperwork and find comps. This will be a
>> great business, and I'll be able to piss off the local government
>> too.
>
> Not sure if you really want to do that - they could turn around and
> make your life miserable in return, couldn't they? However, I do
> understand what you are saying about helping everyone else around save
> on the taxes. I suppose once 4 or 5 neighbors have knocked the taxes
> down, it would be easier for neighbors to use.
What is relevent is not what the neighbors pay, but what prices houses sell for.
Telling the assessor that neighbors pay less than you is not likely to help
(other than getting them re-assessed upward). Showing them a list of comparable
houses that sold for less will help much more.
>
> Also, guess what? I measured the living area in my house, adding a
> couple of feet just to be pessimistic. It turns out the living area
> is a full 20% less than what it says on the auditor's website!
That is significant.
John Weiss
Also, comps should ideally be targeted just BEFORE the assessment date,
because otherwise the Assessor will argue that they could not compare
sales that hadn't happened when the assessment was done. How do I know
this?
tmclone
Flyover state guy needs to realize that he HAS TO PAY WHAT HE OWES.
But...he doesn't wanna, cause he be a brat. And a whiny one at that.
Midwestflyoverstateasshole should just commit suicide. Now. Soon. And
it should take its 3 l(maybe more!!!) arvae and its wifeoid with it!
Would make the world a better place. Instantly. And EVERYone knows it.
And wants it. Unfortunately, selfish buttwipe won't do it.
Heavy sigh,
Oh well.