Jessica, Is it Chicken or Tuna? Nope, it's WATER!
mike
I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
So, I drained the water and weighed it.
3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
I betcha if I drained it down to the normal
water content of tuna it'd be less than half.
Don't they have to list water as the first ingredient
on the can?
Maybe all that water is so Jessica Simpson can
tell that it's tuna.
Oil is lighter than water. Does that mean that
oil-packed has more tuna than water packed?
Rude awakening for this frugal dude.
If it's a can of tuna, the net weight oughta be
the net weight of the tuna.
Thanks for listening to my rant.
mike
--
Return address is VALID.
Wanted, 12.1" LCD for Gateway Solo 5300. Samsung LT121SU-121
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Compaq Aero floppy,ram,battery.
MINT HP-41CV, 2-METER AMPS, 200CH SCANNER
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
Bobby
> Is it Chicken or Tuna? Nope, it's WATER!
>
> I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
> Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
> So, I drained the water and weighed it.
> 3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
>
> I betcha if I drained it down to the normal
> water content of tuna it'd be less than half.
>
Humans are 70% water. I would venture to guess that fish are at least that.
However, water is always listed as the second ingredient on every can i've
seen
so the don't count the water which occurs naturally in the tuna.
You can always go to the fish market and buy fresh tuna fish...
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
Derald wrote:
>
> mike <spa...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> >I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
> >Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
> >So, I drained the water and weighed it.
> >3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
> Coincidentally, within the past few days, I had the same experience
> with their solid white Albacore product, just not as extreme. Because of
> the (small) price difference we switched from out regular brand and
> geeked for the Chicken of the Sea because, "well, it used to be pretty
> good".
>
Chicken of the Sea and Starkist are both terrible. The house brands at
Fred Meyer and Albersons are what I would expect from chunk light tuna.
> The biggest rip I've seen, though, has to be Wallyworld's private
> label "GV". Holey Cow: The folks who buy that stuff either don't mind
> paying one hell of a price for the little dab of third-rate tuna in
> those cans or they have what I'd judge to be an inordinate fondness for
> fishey water.
>
Haven't tried it. It would be nice to see how Chicken of the Sea and
Starkist defend the gunk they are selling. It is actually cheaper than
cat food, although the cat food doesn't admittedly have as much water in
it.
--
"That's one of the tragedies of this life, that the men who are most in
need of a beating up are always enormous." -+Preston Sturges, "The Palm
Beach Story"
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
Not for 25 cents for 6 oz.
Jess Askin
"Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )" <std...@backpacker.com> wrote in
message news:4141385B...@backpacker.com...
>
>
> Derald wrote:
> >
> > mike <spa...@juno.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
> > >Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
> > >So, I drained the water and weighed it.
> > >3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
> > Coincidentally, within the past few days, I had the same
experience
> > with their solid white Albacore product, just not as extreme. Because of
> > the (small) price difference we switched from out regular brand and
> > geeked for the Chicken of the Sea because, "well, it used to be pretty
> > good".
> >
> Chicken of the Sea and Starkist are both terrible. The house brands at
> Fred Meyer and Albersons are what I would expect from chunk light tuna.
>
>
>
> > The biggest rip I've seen, though, has to be Wallyworld's
private
> > label "GV". Holey Cow: The folks who buy that stuff either don't mind
> > paying one hell of a price for the little dab of third-rate tuna in
> > those cans or they have what I'd judge to be an inordinate fondness for
> > fishey water.
> >
> Haven't tried it. It would be nice to see how Chicken of the Sea and
> Starkist defend the gunk they are selling. It is actually cheaper than
> cat food, although the cat food doesn't admittedly have as much water in
> it.
I got a big surprise when the best tuna at my local store turned out to be
the cheaper of their two house brands. Unfortunately they've since
discontinued it.
Nonymous
"Derald" <der...@invalid.net> wrote in message
news:tu82k0dt05ukdftc7...@4ax.com...
> mike <spa...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> >I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
> >Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
> >So, I drained the water and weighed it.
> >3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
> Coincidentally, within the past few days, I had the same experience
> with their solid white Albacore product, just not as extreme.
I've been having a hard time with 'solid white'. Lately, when I open the
cans of solid white, it's all shredded small pieces that dont even qualify
as 'chunk'.
Joel M. Eichen
>Is it Chicken or Tuna? Nope, it's WATER!
>
>I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
>Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
>So, I drained the water and weighed it.
>3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
Research the meaning of the word, "avoirdupois."
>
>I betcha if I drained it down to the normal
>water content of tuna it'd be less than half.
>
>Don't they have to list water as the first ingredient
>on the can?
See above.
Serendipity
You can home can the tuna fish too if you want it a little more
convenient than frozen.
>
>
Fx199
>convenient than frozen.
>>
>>
ugghhh
Fx199
>From: Joel M. Eichen joele...@yahoo.com
>Date: 9/10/2004 8:37 AM US Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <efb3k09fgp8buva0h...@4ax.com>
Check these guys out:
I ordered some of their smoked from a recommendation.
Serendipity
Not ugghh but a very frugal way to preserve extra fish if you have it.
Anyone who hunts or fishes knows this. Of course you can smoke it too.
BTW, I can all types of meats and fish although freezing is my
preferred method. I find it is best to have some on the shelf and some
in the freezer. YMMV
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
Serendipity wrote:
>
> Fx199 wrote:
>
> >>You can home can the tuna fish too if you want it a little more
> >>convenient than frozen.
> >>
> >>>
> >
> > ugghhh
>
> Not ugghh but a very frugal way to preserve extra fish if you have it.
> Anyone who hunts or fishes knows this. Of course you can smoke it too.
>
Properly frozen tuna can be nearly as good as fresh tuna and you don't
have to worry about as many parasitic intruders if you eat it raw.
Canned tuna is a joke in comparison.
Fx199
>have to worry about as many parasitic intruders if you eat it raw.
>Canned tuna is a joke in comparison.
>
>
Yep, I haven't eaten canned vegetables in years. I have read in some cases
frozen veggies actually have more nutrients than "fresh" because they were
frozen at the proper time.
Fx199
>Anyone who hunts or fishes knows this. Of course you can smoke it too.
Now you're talking. A place I go to that smokes and makes jerky also makes some
great "fish sausage" I know sounds bad, but it's great. Canned sardines are OK
a few times per year. Canned meat in general is something I don't have to
settle for, but would if I needed to.
<RJ>
I'd NEVER go back to ( watery ) canned tuna.
The foil pak is all tuna !
Makes great sammiches, great tuna salad.
If you're near a WalMart, they market a house brand
thats just as good for about half the price.
On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:14:06 -0700, mike <spa...@juno.com> wrote:
>Is it Chicken or Tuna? Nope, it's WATER!
>
>I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
>Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
>So, I drained the water and weighed it.
>3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
>
>I betcha if I drained it down to the normal
>water content of tuna it'd be less than half.
>
>Don't they have to list water as the first ingredient
>on the can?
>
>Maybe all that water is so Jessica Simpson can
>tell that it's tuna.
>
>Oil is lighter than water. Does that mean that
>oil-packed has more tuna than water packed?
>
>Rude awakening for this frugal dude.
>If it's a can of tuna, the net weight oughta be
>the net weight of the tuna.
>
>Thanks for listening to my rant.
>mike
<rj>
Dennis
wrote:
>Not ugghh but a very frugal way to preserve extra fish if you have it.
>Anyone who hunts or fishes knows this. Of course you can smoke it too.
Really? Which end do you light?
Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
Fx199 wrote:
>
> >Not ugghh but a very frugal way to preserve extra fish if you have it.
> >Anyone who hunts or fishes knows this. Of course you can smoke it too.
>
> Now you're talking. A place I go to that smokes and makes jerky also makes some
>
I'm reminded of that young man who went into Alaska alone and ended up
dying of starvation, "Into the Wild" by JON KRAKAUER:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385486804/qid=1094858937/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/103-3999535-1183834?v=glance&s=books
It turns out that while he did kill a moose, he didn't understand how to
preserve it by smoking and drying. Contrast with Dick Proenneke in
"Alone in the Wilderness", a book and a video making the rounds on PBS
stations.
> great "fish sausage" I know sounds bad, but it's great. Canned sardines are OK
> a few times per year.
>
Those tins, whether sardines, shrimp, muscles, oysters, clams or even
octopus, are great snacks while backpacking but they would be heavy to
carry a lot of them around. Does fish sausage keep without
refrigeration?
Fx199
>
>I'd NEVER go back to ( watery ) canned tuna.
>
>The foil pak is all tuna !
>Makes great sammiches, great tuna salad.
>
>If you're near a WalMart, they market a house brand
>thats just as good for about half the price.
Those are very convenient for work.
Joel M. Eichen
wrote:
>Fx199 wrote:
BEWARE!
Home canning of what you describe is an excellent way to die from
botulism!
There is no safe way to home-can meats and fish.
I x-posted. Perhaps the docs can help out.
Joel M. Eichen
Joel M. Eichen
)" <std...@backpacker.com> wrote:
>
>
>Fx199 wrote:
>>
>> >Not ugghh but a very frugal way to preserve extra fish if you have it.
>> >Anyone who hunts or fishes knows this. Of course you can smoke it too.
>>
>> Now you're talking. A place I go to that smokes and makes jerky also makes some
>>
>I'm reminded of that young man who went into Alaska alone and ended up
>dying of starvation, "Into the Wild" by JON KRAKAUER:
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385486804/qid=1094858937/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/103-3999535-1183834?v=glance&s=books
>It turns out that while he did kill a moose, he didn't understand how to
>preserve it by smoking and drying. Contrast with Dick Proenneke in
>"Alone in the Wilderness", a book and a video making the rounds on PBS
>stations.
He would have made out okay if he got meese instead of just one moose.
Joel
>
>
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
Apparently he also managed to eat some wild plant that made absorbing
nutrients real difficult. It's an interesting story. Remember how to put
up any meese you catch though.
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
"" wrote:
>
> I bought a "Tuna in a foil Pack" several months ago.
>
> I'd NEVER go back to ( watery ) canned tuna.
>
> The foil pak is all tuna !
> Makes great sammiches, great tuna salad.
>
> If you're near a WalMart, they market a house brand
> thats just as good for about half the price.
>
With four cans of that crap that Bumble Bee sells for a dollar, how is
it in comparison?
K. Reece
"Joel M. Eichen" <joele...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e6m4k05lfslcb2t3d...@4ax.com...
Nonsense, of course you can safely home can meat and fish.
http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/how/can5_meat.html
I un x-posted because what the hell do dentists know about home canning.
Kathy
Joel M. Eichen
Here ya go ...
http://www.lowcountrynow.com/stories/110599/LEISguinn05.shtml
Home canning -- botulism always a threat
By Bob Guinn
Special to the Carolina Morning News
Foodborne botulism is a severe type of food poisoning caused by the
ingestion of foods containing a potent toxin that affects the nervous
system.
The toxin can be destroyed if the food is boiled for 10 minutes or
longer. Although incidence of the disease is low, the mortality rate
is high if the patient is not treated immediately and properly. Onset
of symptoms in foodborne botulism usually occurs 12 to 36 hours after
ingestion of the food containing the toxin, although onset has varied
from 4 hours to 8 days.
Symptoms include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, fatigue, headache, dry
mouth, double vision, muscle paralysis, and respiratory failure.
Most of the 10 to 30 outbreaks reported annually in the United States
are associated with inadequately processed, home-canned foods, but
occasionally commercially produced foods have been involved in
outbreaks.
The problem is that the bacterial cells of Clostridium botulinum can
form spores that can withstand boiling temperatures without dying. The
spores grow well in absence of air in home-canned, low acid foods such
as vegetables and meats.
Luckily, these spores can be destroyed by canning the food at a
temperature of 240 degrees F or above for the correct length of time.
This temperature is above the boiling point of water and can only be
reached by using a pressure canner.
Several canning methods are considered unsafe and include the
open-kettle method and steam canning.
Research continues in the area of home canning. Processing times and
temperature are being evaluated and modified to reflect the latest in
research. If you are planning on canning, please use an updated guide
to home canning to avoid the threat of botulism.
>
Joel M. Eichen
FROM YOUR WEBSITE:
****************************************************
It takes many, many hours at boiling water temperatures to begin to
kill C. botulinum spores in low-acid foods that there would be very
little, if any, food value or quality remaining at the end of the
sterilization process. There is therefore no purpose, and a lot of
risk, to determining canning processes for low-acid foods in a boiling
water canner.
***************************************************
Botulism: It Only Takes A Taste
Elizabeth L. Andress
Introduction
It only took a little! This is the message behind the story of Loretta
Boberg, a 62-year old woman from Wisconsin who always tastes food
before serving it to company. In this case, the company can be very
thankful she did.
When Mrs. Boberg opened a jar of home-canned carrots in January of
that year, she dipped in a finger to taste the juice. Not liking the
taste, she served home-canned beans to her guests instead. Within two
days, Mrs. Boberg became dizzy and had difficulty walking. At first,
hospital staff thought she had suffered a stroke because of her
slurred speech and muscle weakness. The doctor did ask her if she had
eaten any spoiled food lately, however. Too weak to speak, Mrs. Boberg
wrote "carrots" on a piece of paper. If this physician had not
suspected botulism, even though he had seen only a few cases, Mrs.
Boberg would probably have died. The toxin moved through the
respiratory system, paralyzing her muscles. A sample from the jar was
fed to a laboratory mouse and it died instantly. A sample of Mrs.
Boberg's blood was given to another mouse and it too died instantly.
The road to recovery for this lady was very slow. Six months later,
she remained in the hospital on a respirator, still being fed
intravenously. She had stood for only three minutes since the
incident, and talked through a tube in her trachea when not out of
breath. Muscle movement was returning slowly with the help of physical
therapy. Hospital officials estimated that her bill was running about
$200,000. These results are a terrible tragedy, but they could be even
worse botulism is fatal in many cases. Mrs. Boberg used a boiling
water canner for the carrots that gave her botulism. Yes, this was the
same method she had usedand only by luck had gotten away withfor the
past 44 years. This year she was not so lucky. If, like Mrs. Boberg,
you are canning low-acid foods such as vegetables (except tomatoes),
red meats, seafood, and poultry in a boiling water canner or by the
open kettle method, you may wish to think twice before taking another
chance.
Because native spores of Clostridium botulinum, the bacteria that
cause the potentially fatal botulism, are extremely difficult to
destroy at boiling water temperatures, all low-acid foods should be
processed at the much higher temperatures achieved only with pressure
canners. Processing times are scientifically determined to ensure
destruction of the most heat-resistant disease-causing bacteria
capable of growing in each type of food packed in a jar of a specific
size. Therefore, there are different processing times for different
foods.
It takes many, many hours at boiling water temperatures to begin to
kill C. botulinum spores in low-acid foods that there would be very
little, if any, food value or quality remaining at the end of the
sterilization process. There is therefore no purpose, and a lot of
risk, to determining canning processes for low-acid foods in a boiling
water canner. The only time a water bath canner can be used is when
canning acid foods such as tomatoes, fruits, pickled and fermented
products, jams, jellies, marmalades and fruit butters. Once you start
to add meat and/or vegetables to soups and tomato sauces, the acidity
of that food changes and you must use a pressure canner for most
formulations. What if you don't own a pressure canner, can't borrow
one, or find access to one? Then your only option is to freeze the
food.
There are no shortcuts to home canning! Home canning takes time,
proper processing methods, proper equipment and current,
scientifically-based process recommendations. Anytime you have a
question about home canning, or freezing methods, please contact your
County Cooperative Extension Office, consult the safest
recommendations available from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, or
consult the National Center for Home Food Preservation. Learn from the
tragedy of Mrs. Boberg and don't take chances with your health or
life.
IDENTIFYING AND HANDLING SPOILED HOME-CANNED FOOD
DO NOT TASTE food from a jar with an unsealed lid or when food shows
signs of spoilage. You can more easily detect some types of spoilage
in jars stored without screw bands because the lids will be loose.
Remove bands and wash off the jar and flat lid before storing jars.
Growth of some spoilage bacteria and yeast produces gas, which
pressurizes the contents, swells lids and breaks their seals. As each
jar is selected for use, examine its lid for tightness and vacuum.
Lids with concave centers have good seals. Look for the following
signs of spoilage in sealed jars. While holding the jar upright at eye
level, rotate the jar and examine its outside surface for streaks of
dried food originating at the top of the jar. Look at the contents for
rising air bubbles and unnatural color. While opening the jar, check
for spurting liquid, smell for unnatural odors and look for
cotton-like mold growth (white, blue-black or green) on the top food
surface an underside of lid. Carefully discard any jar of spoiled food
to prevent possible illness to you, your family, and pets. Before
discarding, detoxify any jar of spoiled low-acid food by removing the
jar lid, taking care not to spill the contents. Then place the jar,
its contents, and the loose lid in hot water and add enough water to
cover the jar. Boil all items in the water for 30 minutes. Cool and
discard jar contents in the garbage.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This document is an update of Fact Sheet HE-8198, Florida Cooperative
Extension Service, University of Florida originally published May
1991.
top ^
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home / Publications / Search / Seasonal Tips / Info Request /
Multimedia / FAQ's / Contact / Links
>
Joel M. Eichen
ANOTHER:
Can Foods Properly to Prevent Botulism
In July 1995, a couple in Cheyenne County got botulism, probably from
consuming home-canned food. The woman was an experienced canner.
Because she has been unable to talk, no one is clear about her canning
practices. Suspect foods, however, include a tomato juice blend
similar to V-8 juice, potatoes, meats and corn. Any of these, if
improperly processed, could allow Clostridium Botulinum to grow and
produce harmful toxin.
What is C. botulinum?
Clostridium botulinum is a bacterium that may cause botulism, a
foodborne illness. C. botulinum is an anaerobic organism and therefore
prefers environments like those found in a sealed jar or in a large
container of thick food in which the freely available oxygen has been
driven off through heating.
Conditions for growth and toxin production.
Garden produce may contain soilborne C. botulinum spores at the time
of harvest. These spores are inactive. Spores can become vegetative
and produce deadly toxins under the right conditions. Those conditions
of high moisture, no oxygen, low-acidity (pH over 4.6), and room
temperature may be present in improperly canned green beans, corn,
peas or other low-acid products. Low-acid foods require high
temperature processing using a pressure canner if they are to be
canned and safe to eat. Pressure canning is necessary to achieve a
high enough temperature to destroy heat resistant spores before they
can become vegetative. (Refer to Extension publication Preserving
Vegetables, MF-1181, for more information on home canning of
vegetables).
How serious is the illness?
Botulism symptoms may develop anywhere between 12 and 72 hours after
ingesting the toxin. Symptoms consist of nausea, vomiting, fatigue,
double-vision, dizziness, difficulty breathing, and headache; dryness
of skin, mouth, and throat; constipation, lack of fever, and paralysis
for one to ten days or more. The mortality rate varies between 30 and
65%. Early detection and treatment is extremely important to avoid
death or severe, long-term effects. Because the nervous system is
affected, recovery for those who survive may take years.
How can you prevent botulism?
The majority of outbreaks have been caused by home-canned foods.
Because C. botulinum forms heat-resistant spores, home-canned meat,
poultry, fish and vegetable products require pressure canning to
achieve a high enough temperature (240-250 degrees Fahrenheit) for a
sufficient time to destroy spores. It is important to use
research-based, up-to-date processing methods. These methods are
described in the USDA Complete Guide to Home Canning, 1994 and in
various Kansas Extension publications. Oven, microwave and open-kettle
canning are definitely out! If you do not have a pressure canner,
borrow one or freeze produce instead. If botulinum bacteria survive
and grow inside a sealed jar of food, they can produce a poisonous
toxin. Even a taste of food containing this toxin can be fatal.
Boiling food 10 minutes at altitudes below 1,000 ft. destroys this
poison when it is present. For altitudes at and above 1,000 ft., add 1
additional minute per 1,000 ft. additional elevation.
Caution: To prevent the risk of botulism, low-acid and tomato foods
not canned according to the recommendations in the USDA Guide to Home
Canning or according to other USDA-endorsed recommendations should be
boiled as above, even if you detect no signs of spoilage. Products
that contain harmful toxin may show no signs of spoilage. All low-acid
foods canned according to the approved recommendations may be eaten
without boiling them when you are sure of all the following:
Food was processed in a pressure canner.
Gauge of the pressure canner was accurate. (Your county extension
office may provide the service of testing dial gauges).
Up-to-date researched process times and pressures were used for the
size of jar, style of pack, and kind of food being canned.
The process time and pressure recommended for canning the food at your
altitude was followed.
Jar lid is firmly sealed and concave.
Nothing has leaked from jar.
No liquid spurts out when jar is opened.
No unnatural or off odors can be detected.
Because of the potential hazards of improperly home-canned foods it is
also against State of Kansas regulations to serve these foods in
foodservice establishments.
Avoid using vacuum packaging machines to enhance storage of perishable
leftovers. Store leftover foods and vacuum packaged meats in the
refrigerator or freezer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources:
Applied Foodservice Sanitation, A Certification Coursebook, 4th Ed.
The Educational Foundation of the National Restaurant Association,
1992. pp. 44-45.
How Onions and a Baked Potato Became Sources of Botulism Poisoning,
Roger W. Miller, FDA Consumer. October 1984.
Microorganisms and Foods, Karen P. Penner, Extension Specialist, Food
Science, Kansas State University, North Central Regional Extension
Publication #447., 1992.
Modern Food Microbiology, An AVI Book, Van Norstrand Reinhold, 4th
Ed., James M. Jay, 1992. pp. 487-501.
Complete Guide to Home Canning, USDA Extension Service, Agriculture
Information Bulletin No 539, 1994.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karen Penner, Ph.D.
Extension Specialist, Food Science
9/95 File: FOOD SAFETY/Microorganisms
Joel M. Eichen
>I un x-posted because what the hell do dentists know about home canning.
>
>Kathy
THEY KNOW not to!
TOXINS!
Joel
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
Most of them cut their teeth on home canning.
K. Reece
FROM *YOUR* POST
Luckily, these spores can be destroyed by canning the food at a
temperature of 240 degrees F or above for the correct length of time.
This temperature is above the boiling point of water and can only be
reached by using a pressure canner.
***********************************
That's *EXACTLY* what SAFE canning is all about.
*PRESSURE CANNER*
Kathy
Joel M. Eichen
Joel
Campbell's, Dole and the big boys are!
Joel M. Eichen
)" <std...@backpacker.com> wrote:
>> I un x-posted because what the hell do dentists know about home canning.
>>
>Most of them cut their teeth on home canning.
CLEVER! You got it!
Joel M. Eichen
>Joel M. Eichen <joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>There is no safe way to home-can meats and fish.
> Hey: Once, again, you simply don't know what you're talking about.
>Why don't you just keep your ignorance to your damned self for a while?
>Thanks.
Welcome. This reminds people about pressure needed for canning and
botulism. Hey! This is the internet! Not your newspaper!
Joel
Serendipity
Yes there is. Check the USDA food safety guidelines.
http://foodsafety.cas.psu.edu/canningguide.html
>
> I x-posted. Perhaps the docs can help out.
x-posting removed.
>
>
> Joel M. Eichen
>
>
>
Serendipity
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> to home canning to avoid the threat of botulism.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Two such guides have already been posted. If you follow the guides and
practice safe home canning practices, there is no reason you cannot can
meats or fish.
Serendipity
> Are 100% of the home canners using pressure canning?
No, only those home canners canning low acid vegetables, meats, or fish
use a pressure canner. Those canning high acid foods like jams,
jellies, fruits, or pickles use a boiling water bath which is the safe
way to do it. Those of us who do both low acid and high acid foods, use
the appropriate equipment: pressure canner or water bath canner
depending on what is being canned. A pressure canner can be used as a
water bath canner if it is not sealed so a home canner can get by with
just a pressure canner. Pressure canners are expensive and should be
considered an investment in home canning.
>
> Joel
>
>
>
> Campbell's, Dole and the big boys are!
I doubt they use pressure canning for high acid foods. Bick's pickles
would be mush if they did!
Serendipity
A pressure canner is the "only" safe way to home can low acid foods. My
pressure canner does quite nicely. BTW, I made a huge batch of
spaghetti sauce with meat yesterday. I'm making a few trays of lasagne
and canning the rest of the sauce.
>
> Kathy
>
>
K. Reece
> Are 100% of the home canners using pressure canning?
>
> Joel
If they're canning low acid foods they are. Low acid foods covers a lot
more than just meat and fish.
Kathy
Joel M. Eichen
wrote:
>Two such guides have already been posted. If you follow the guides and
>practice safe home canning practices, there is no reason you cannot can
>meats or fish.
REPLY
We agree. But with the LEVEL of education in this country, and the
propensity to take short cuts, its DANGEROUS!
If you can it, I ain't eatin' it!
Joel
PS- The dentists are experts at steam-sterilization, autoclaving, and
spores!
Joel M. Eichen
population who is playing roulette with their canning.
JOEL
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:04:13 -0400, Serendipity <goa...@spammers.com>
wrote:
Joel M. Eichen
This is a common error of logic.
If A ----> B
then B ---> A.
No way!
You wrote,
>If they're canning low acid foods they are.
HAH!
Joel
Joel M. Eichen
Just be sure to inform guets .... (informed consent) before serving!
JOEL
PS- Is there Continuing Education required before home canning? There
ought to be!
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:51:49 -0400, Serendipity <goa...@spammers.com>
wrote:
Joel M. Eichen
wrote:
>Yes there is. Check the USDA food safety guidelines.
>http://foodsafety.cas.psu.edu/canningguide.html
>
>>
>> I x-posted. Perhaps the docs can help out.
>
>x-posting removed.
REPLY
WHOT???????
>>
>>
>> Joel M. Eichen
>>
>>
>>
Serendipity
> COOL!
>
> Just be sure to inform guets .... (informed consent) before serving!
Guests in my home know that the majority of food served is either fresh,
home canned, or home frozen. Almost 28 years of doing so and haven't
killed anyone yet although if you are up for offers, I could sneak a
little foxglove into your salad ;) Especially if you keep cross posting
to irrelevant newsgroups!
Serendipity
> OK Serendip ........ you know your stuff. Now lets quiz the general
> population who is playing roulette with their canning.
Yes, I know my stuff especially when it comes to canning. I've made it
a point to be well educated in that area. The people who can make up a
minority of the population so quizzing the general population is wasted
effort. Of those who can, there are a few types. The first has a large
garden and puts up whatever they can't use in season. The second makes
a few batches of jams or jellies and perhaps pickles for themselves and
gift giving. The third, of which I fall into this category, have a
large garden and can get other produce free or cheap, and takes
advantage of meat sales, and perhaps hunts and/or fishes, AND preserves
from season to season EVERYTHING their family will use for the upcoming
year. A fourth is those who can to sell their wholesome goods to others.
If homecanning is not for you, don't do it. You have presented a
negative but let me tell you the positives. I have canned upwards of
400 jars of food within the past 6 months. I do not buy commercially
canned foods of any kind so it is up to me to have home canned versions
on hand for those things we use. I know that we are well stocked to get
us through to the next growing season and I have a ready stock of my
versions of convenience foods. And yes, I can meats, fish, stews, and
soups. I know exactly the quality of the produce going into anything I
can and for the most part all produce is organic especially the stuff I
grow. I know there are no preservatives, added sugars, added colours,
or added salts. I know I have a variety and many unique canned foods
that simply cannot be bought in stores. In short, I believe the quality
of what I home can is far superior than anything I could buy in the
stores. I revel in the feeling of self-sufficiency and that is an added
bonus.
Now, we have only discussed home canning. I also home freeze and home
dry foods. Would you go into someone's home and sit down to a meal then
refuse to eat it if they said it was home frozen or home dried? If you
don't trust their cooking skills, you shouldn't be eating there period!
BTW, you add that dent group back in there one more time and I am going
to slap you silly!
Serendipity
> On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:37:53 -0400, Serendipity <goa...@spammers.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Two such guides have already been posted. If you follow the guides and
>>practice safe home canning practices, there is no reason you cannot can
>>meats or fish.
>
>
> REPLY
>
> We agree. But with the LEVEL of education in this country, and the
> propensity to take short cuts, its DANGEROUS!
>
> If you can it, I ain't eatin' it!
Grin, how would you know unless you saw me open a can of home canned food?
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
Derald wrote:
>
> Joel M. Eichen <joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >There is no safe way to home-can meats and fish.
> Hey: Once, again, you simply don't know what you're talking about.
> Why don't you just keep your ignorance to your damned self for a while?
> Thanks.
>
Another possible response would be to actually provide a cite to defend
your opinions.
Fx199
>rimp, muscles, oysters, clams or even
>octopus, are great snacks while backpacking but they would be heavy to
>carry a lot of them around. Does fish sausage keep without
>refrigeration?
Yep, it's stuffed into a skin and can be left out.
CindyThe Tax Lady
> cans of solid white, it's all shredded small pieces that dont even qualify
> as 'chunk'.
Buy solid packed in OIL.
Solid tuna is and older fish. Oil keeps it proper.
Cindy (friend of a retired Fish and Game inspector)
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
Older fish have higher Hg levels, etc. Solid tuna packed in oil is a lot
more expensive that the slosh they sell packed in water. If you have a
choice at the same price, oil is supposed to retain the flavour in tuna
better, although some people complain about the supposed increase in
calories.
Joel M. Eichen
screw on the left is actually a transmitting camera ......
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:32:34 -0400, Serendipity <goa...@spammers.com>
wrote:
Joel M. Eichen
This gives us a perspective how people SPEND and SAVE money!
J.E.
***********************************************
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:31:39 -0400, Serendipity <goa...@spammers.com>
wrote:
>Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>
>> OK Serendip ........ you know your stuff. Now lets quiz the general
>> population who is playing roulette with their canning.
>
>Yes, I know my stuff especially when it comes to canning. I've made it
>a point to be well educated in that area. The people who can make up a
>minority of the population so quizzing the general population is wasted
>effort.
YUP that's why I say its DANGEROUS to can meats!
High acid stuff okay. Pickles, tomatoes, fruits .....
Its the toxins, not the bacteria!
Joel
> Of those who can, there are a few types. The first has a large
>garden and puts up whatever they can't use in season.
Vegetables or meats?
> The second makes
>a few batches of jams or jellies and perhaps pickles for themselves and
>gift giving.
YUM. Except the dollar store gives you quite a run for your money
these days ......
We have raspberry jam at a buck a pop ... WORTH IT!
>The third, of which I fall into this category, have a
>large garden and can get other produce free or cheap, and takes
>advantage of meat sales, and perhaps hunts and/or fishes, AND preserves
>from season to season EVERYTHING their family will use for the upcoming
>year. A fourth is those who can to sell their wholesome goods to others.
>
>If homecanning is not for you, don't do it.
YUP.
> You have presented a
>negative but let me tell you the positives. I have canned upwards of
>400 jars of food within the past 6 months.
WoW!
Are you grossly overweight?
> I do not buy commercially
>canned foods of any kind so it is up to me to have home canned versions
>on hand for those things we use. I know that we are well stocked to get
>us through to the next growing season and I have a ready stock of my
>versions of convenience foods. And yes, I can meats, fish, stews, and
>soups.
How do you get the moose inside the pressure cooker?
> I know exactly the quality of the produce going into anything I
>can and for the most part all produce is organic especially the stuff I
>grow. I know there are no preservatives, added sugars, added colours,
>or added salts. I know I have a variety and many unique canned foods
>that simply cannot be bought in stores. In short, I believe the quality
>of what I home can is far superior than anything I could buy in the
>stores.
Probably so!
> I revel in the feeling of self-sufficiency and that is an added
>bonus.
>
>Now, we have only discussed home canning. I also home freeze and home
>dry foods.
WoW!WoW!
Double WoW!
> Would you go into someone's home and sit down to a meal then
>refuse to eat it if they said it was home frozen or home dried?
Is it Kosher or not?
> If you
>don't trust their cooking skills, you shouldn't be eating there period!
>
>BTW, you add that dent group back in there one more time and I am going
>to slap you silly!
Okay, I am ducking right now!
Dental Dudes! WATCH-OUT!
Joel M. Eichen
wrote:
>Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>
>> COOL!
>>
>> Just be sure to inform guets .... (informed consent) before serving!
>
>Guests in my home know that the majority of food served is either fresh,
>home canned, or home frozen. Almost 28 years of doing so and haven't
>killed anyone yet although if you are up for offers, I could sneak a
>little foxglove into your salad ;) Especially if you keep cross posting
>to irrelevant newsgroups!
I guess you guys can skip the pharmacist when the doc writes for
digitalis .......
JOEL
W_B
<joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>DENTAL STUFF:
>
>This gives us a perspective how people SPEND and SAVE money!
>
>J.E.
>***********************************************
This gives us a perspective how people PRIORITIZE their funds.
Most do it poorly, and remain such.
--
W_B
wubbab...@RBAGEyahoo.com
Take out the G'RBAGE
Joel M. Eichen
>On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:06:32 -0400, Joel M. Eichen
><joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>DENTAL STUFF:
>>
>>This gives us a perspective how people SPEND and SAVE money!
>>
>>J.E.
>>***********************************************
>
>This gives us a perspective how people PRIORITIZE their funds.
>
>Most do it poorly, and remain such.
YUP, why eat when there is scaling and root planing to be done?
Joel
W_B
You are an idiot JE.
You make me ashamed that you are part of the
dental profession.
Hereby, move that JE be removed.
...from the human race ?
Nah...
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:23:21 -0400, Joel M. Eichen
<joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:14:16 GMT, W_B <no_...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:06:32 -0400, Joel M. Eichen
>><joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>DENTAL STUFF:
>>>
>>>This gives us a perspective how people SPEND and SAVE money!
>>>
>>>J.E.
>>>***********************************************
>>
>>This gives us a perspective how people PRIORITIZE their funds.
>>
>>Most do it poorly, and remain such.
>
>YUP, why eat when there is scaling and root planing to be done?
>
>Joel
>
>
--
W_B
#####################################
Definition of 'stress':
"When one's mind overrides the intense desire to
choke the living sh*t out of some a**hole who
desperately needs it."
--
W_B
Joel M. Eichen
NOW repeat after me ........
Joel
Sewmaster
> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:45:24 -0400, Serendipity <goa...@spammers.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Fx199 wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>You can home can the tuna fish too if you want it a little more
>>>>convenient than frozen.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>ugghhh
>>
>>Not ugghh but a very frugal way to preserve extra fish if you have it.
>>Anyone who hunts or fishes knows this. Of course you can smoke it too.
>> BTW, I can all types of meats and fish although freezing is my
>>preferred method. I find it is best to have some on the shelf and some
>>in the freezer. YMMV
>
>
> BEWARE!
>
> Home canning of what you describe is an excellent way to die from
> botulism!
>
>
>
>
Joel, homecanned tuna is canned in a pressure canner,
not a waterbath. All nonacid foods must be pressure-canned.
Perfectly safe.
Sewmaster, veteran canner of lots of low-acid foods
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
They should be transported to Venus where they can be cheaply water bath
canned and then brought back to Earth for consumption. Take that idea up
with president Kerry.
--
"The rabbits became strange in many ways, different from other rabbits.
They knew well enough what was happening. But even to themselves they
pretended that all was well, for the food was good, they were protected,
they had nothing to fear but the one fear; and that struck here and
there, never enough at a time to drive them away. They forgot the ways
of wild rabbits. They forgot El-ahrairah, for what use had they for
tricks and cunning, living in the enemy's warren and paying his price?"
-+ Richard Adams, "Watership Down"
JJ
>They should be transported to Venus where they can be cheaply water bath
>canned and then brought back to Earth for consumption. Take that idea up
>with president Kerry.
Lol, because Bush is the President who wants to go to Mars, and Kerry
wants to go to Venus? Lol.
Jay
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
If Bush wants to go to Mars to water bath can low acid foods like meats
and then ship them back to the Earth for consumption, he's stupid. You
can't do that on Mars.
hchi...@hotmail.com
>Is it Chicken or Tuna? Nope, it's WATER!
>
>I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
>Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
>So, I drained the water and weighed it.
>3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
>
>I betcha if I drained it down to the normal
>water content of tuna it'd be less than half.
>
>Don't they have to list water as the first ingredient
>on the can?
Went through that routine a while back. The average weight of product in a can
used as the normal serving is supposed to be the weight shown on the can. The
Federal standard is to take 24 cans of the product and derive an average weight
based on that. A can could be totally empty and be legal, as long as the other
23 cans in a batch contained enough product to make up the difference.
The drained weight of the tuna is supposed to be what is shown on the outside
of the can. There are other specs for the contents in tuna cans but I forget
them.
Joel M. Eichen
The Big Boys have equipment that puts it in the can and seals it.
How do the HOME CANERS .. I mean HOME CANNERS handle the sealing
porocess?
Joel
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 02:35:42 GMT, Sewmaster <cocoa...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Serendipity
> Here's the problem .......
>
> The Big Boys have equipment that puts it in the can and seals it.
>
> How do the HOME CANERS .. I mean HOME CANNERS handle the sealing
> porocess?
The short answer is that both water bath canning and pressure canning
heat the contents in the jar. As the jar cools, a vacuum is formed that
seals the jar. There are lots of websites out there that will explain
the process in greater detail. Try google.
Joel M. Eichen
wrote:
>Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>
>> Here's the problem .......
>>
>> The Big Boys have equipment that puts it in the can and seals it.
>>
>> How do the HOME CANERS .. I mean HOME CANNERS handle the sealing
>> porocess?
>
>The short answer is that both water bath canning and pressure canning
>heat the contents in the jar. As the jar cools, a vacuum is formed that
>seals the jar. There are lots of websites out there that will explain
>the process in greater detail. Try google.
How do you know when you have killed Clostridium?
JOEL
Joel M. Eichen
wrote:
>Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>
>> Here's the problem .......
>>
>> The Big Boys have equipment that puts it in the can and seals it.
>>
>> How do the HOME CANERS .. I mean HOME CANNERS handle the sealing
>> porocess?
>
>The short answer is that both water bath canning and pressure canning
>heat the contents in the jar. As the jar cools, a vacuum is formed that
>seals the jar. There are lots of websites out there that will explain
>the process in greater detail. Try google.
>>
****************************************************
THANKS!
I did.
Here is what it said:
Foodborne Botulism Associated With Home-Canned Bamboo Shoots --
Thailand, 1998
On April 13, 1998, the Field Epidemiology Training Program in the
Thailand Ministry of Public Health (TMPH) was informed of six persons
with sudden onset of cranial nerve palsies suggestive of botulism who
were admitted to a provincial hospital in northern Thailand. To
determine the cause of the cluster, TMPH initiated an investigation on
April 14. This report summarizes the results of the investigation,
which indicate that the outbreak was caused by foodborne botulism from
home-canned bamboo shoots.
Of the six patients, five resided in one village (village A), and the
other patient resided in another village (village B). A case was
defined as at least three symptoms (ptosis, dysphagia, dysarthria,
dysphonia, dry mouth, symmetrical paralysis, diarrhea, or vomiting)
that developed in a resident of village A or B during April 8-17. TMPH
reviewed medical records and interviewed patients in the provincial
hospital; seven additional cases were identified. Twelve (92%)
case-patients resided in village A; nine (69%) were hospitalized. The
median age was 44 years (range: 38-68 years), and nine were women. In
the 13 case-patients, symptoms included dysphagia (85%), dry mouth
(62%), vomiting (54%), dysphonia (54%), diarrhea (38%), symmetrical
paralysis (31%), dysarthria (31%), and ptosis (23%). Four required
mechanical ventilation. Two (15%) patients died; both were women, ages
46 and 68 years. Electromyography of two ill persons showed an
incremental response to rapid repetitive stimulation consistent with
botulism (1).
TMPH interviewed 11 case-patients and the family members of the two
who died. All 13 ill persons had eaten home-canned bamboo shoots. No
other common food was identified. Sixty-six healthy controls were
selected among residents of village A and B who were preparing foods
on April 16 for the burial services of the two decedents. All controls
were women; 38 (58%) resided in village B. Four (6%) of the controls
had eaten home-canned bamboo shoots (odds ratio [OR] undetermined; p
less than 0.001). Cooking the food containing the bamboo shoots was
protective; one (7.7%) of the 13 case-patients cooked bamboo shoots
compared with three of four controls who had eaten bamboo shoots
(OR=0.03; 95% confidence interval=0.0-0.95). The time between eating
bamboo shoots and onset of illness was 6 hours to 6 days (median: 2
days).
All 13 case-patients ate bamboo shoots from one 20-L (5.3-gallon) can.
The bamboo shoots had been canned and sold by a village B resident,
who also was a case-patient. The vendor picked the shoots, then
cleaned and processed them by boiling them in a 20-L galvanized iron
container for approximately 1 hour. While the bamboo shoots were
boiling, the vendor sealed the container with lead. The canned bamboo
shoots were stored at ambient temperatures for 3-6 months until they
were sold.
Cultures of stool samples from two case-patients were negative for
Clostridium botulinum at Siriraj Hospital. Cultures from six specimens
of the implicated home-canned bamboo shoots sent to the U.S. Army
Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases in Fort Detrick,
Maryland, were negative for C. botulinum. One of six bamboo shoot
specimens was positive for botulinum toxin type A by enzyme-linked
immunosorbent assay and mouse antitoxin bioassay (1). The pH of two
bamboo shoot specimens was measured at the Regional Medical Sciences
Center and was 5.3 and 5.7.
As a result of this investigation, TMPH recommended increasing control
of home-canned food production in all provinces and strengthening
surveillance for foodborne botulism. The provincial government
prohibited sale of the remaining 650 cans (13,000 L [3421 gallons]) of
home-canned bamboo shoots in affected villages. Provincial authorities
conducted an education campaign advising the population to buy only
government-approved food and to heat home-canned bamboo shoots before
eating. The national food safety committee in Thailand also instructed
all 75 provincial authorities to enforce high temperature processing
of home-canned foods.
Reported by: P Wongwatcharapaiboon, MD, L Thaikruea, MD, K Ungchusak,
MD, Field Epidemiology Training Program, S Wattanasri, MD, Div of
Epidemiology, Ministry of Public Health; P Sriprasert, MD, S
Nanthavas, T Visajsuk, Nan Provincial Health Office, Nan; S Chaiupala,
MD, K Tuntisririwit, MD, S Leksririvili, Nan Hospital, Nan; A
Thanawong, Thawangpha Hospital, Nan Province, Nan, Thailand. Regional
Medical Sciences Center, National Institute of Health, Food and Drug
Administration Committee, Dept of Agriculture, Toxicological Section,
Siriraj Hospital, Bangkok, Thailand. Armed Forces Research Institute
of Medical Science, Bangkok, Thailand. US Army Medical Research
Institute for Infectious Diseases, US Dept of Defense, Fort Detrick,
Maryland. Div of International Health, Epidemiology Program Office;
Foodborne and Diarrheal Diseases Br, Div of Bacterial and Mycotic
Diseases, National Center for Infectious Diseases, CDC.
Editorial Note:
Botulism is caused by a neurotoxin produced from the anaerobic,
spore-forming bacterium C. botulinum and, in humans, is usually caused
by toxin types A, B, or E. Botulism is characterized by symmetric,
descending, flaccid paralysis of motor and autonomic nerves, usually
beginning with the cranial nerves. Blurred vision, dysphagia, and
dysarthria are common initial complaints. Foodborne botulism is caused
by eating preformed toxin produced in food. The most frequent source
is home-canned foods in which spores that survive an inadequate
cooking and canning process germinate, reproduce, and produce toxin in
the anaerobic environment of the canned food (1).
The findings in this report indicate that this outbreak was caused by
botulism type A and implicated home-canned bamboo shoots as the common
source. This is the first laboratory confirmed outbreak of botulism in
Thailand.
Inadequate cooking of the bamboo shoots, the anaerobic condition in
the can, and lack of an acidifier allowed C. botulinum spores to
germinate and produce toxin in this food. Because C. botulinum spores
are ubiquitous and commonly present in soil, these bamboo shoots
probably contained spores (2). Boiling the shoots for an hour was not
enough to kill the spores because they are highly resistant to heat.
To safely prepare foods intended for canning or long-term storage, the
U.S. Department of Agriculture recommends that all low-acid foods
(i.e., foods with pH greater than 4.6, including red meat, seafood,
poultry, milk, and fresh vegetables) be sterilized at temperatures of
240 F (116 C) to 250 F (121 C) in pressure canners operated at 0.68 to
0.97 atm (10-15 lb/in2). At these temperatures, the time needed to
destroy bacteria in low-acid canned food ranges from 20 to 100 minutes
(3). Spores that survive the cooking process generally will not grow
in an acidic environment (pH less than 4.6) (2); however, the pH of
the bamboo shoots was not low enough to prevent growth and toxin
production. The toxin is heat-labile and can be destroyed by heating
to 176 F (80 C) for 30 minutes, or 212 F (100 C) for 10 minutes (2).
Sale of home-canned food is a means of supplementing income in
Thailand. The Department of Agriculture in Thailand requires that all
canned low-acid foods be sterilized at temperatures of 250 F (121 C),
and the Food and Drug Administration in Thailand requires that the
canning process be approved and the cans be labeled. The label should
include a date indicating when the food should be discarded and the
place of manufacture. Lack of compliance with these recommendations
and rules may have contributed to the outbreak.
A diagnosis of botulism can be confirmed by detecting toxin in serum
or stool samples from patients or in implicated foods or by culturing
the organism from patients' stools. Toxin detection using the mouse
bioassay is performed only in selected laboratories and was not
available in Thailand. The capacity to perform toxin detection in
Thailand is being developed in collaboration with the Thai government
and CDC.
The standard treatment for severe botulism is supportive therapy with
mechanical ventilation. Trivalent botulinum antitoxin can reduce
mortality if administered early; however, for the outbreak in
Thailand, supplies were not available locally (1). The high
case-fatality rate in this outbreak suggests that antitoxin should be
made available in Thailand. In the United States, CDC releases
antitoxin through an emergency distribution system. CDC has an
agreement with the Pan American Health Organization to supply botulism
antitoxin to other countries in the Western Hemisphere (3,4). A
regional coordinated botulism antitoxin release system could
facilitate availability of antitoxin in Thailand and other neighboring
countries.
References
Shapiro RL, Hatheway C, Swerdlow DL. Botulism in the United States: a
clinical and epidemiologic review. Ann Intern Med 1998;129:221-8.
St. Louis ME. Botulism. In: Evans AS, Brachman PS, eds. Bacterial
infections of humans: epidemiology and control. 2nd ed. New York, New
York: Plenum Medical, 1991:115-26.
Villar RG, Shapiro RL, Busto S, et al. Outbreak of type A botulism and
development of a botulism surveillance and antitoxin release system in
Argentina. JAMA 1999;281:1334-8,1340.
Shapiro RL, Hatheway C, Becher J, Swerdlow DL. Botulism surveillance
and emergency response: a public health strategy for a global
challenge. JAMA 1997;278:433-5.
Disclaimer All MMWR HTML versions of articles are electronic
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issue can be obtained from the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
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Joel M. Eichen
wrote:
>Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>
>> Here's the problem .......
>>
>> The Big Boys have equipment that puts it in the can and seals it.
>>
>> How do the HOME CANERS .. I mean HOME CANNERS handle the sealing
>> porocess?
>
>The short answer is that both water bath canning and pressure canning
>heat the contents in the jar. As the jar cools, a vacuum is formed that
>seals the jar. There are lots of websites out there that will explain
>the process in greater detail. Try google.
>>
>
REPLY
YOU are right. Only six people died. If they did it incorrectly many
more would have died!
JOEL
Joel M. Eichen
Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes
which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept
hot until served or refrigerated
JOEL
*************
Prevention
Foodborne botulism has often been from home-canned foods with low acid
content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn. However,
outbreaks of botulism have resulted from more unusual sources such as
chopped garlic in oil, chile peppers, tomatoes, improperly handled
baked potatoes wrapped in aluminum foil, and home-canned or fermented
fish. Persons who do home canning should follow strict hygienic
procedures to reduce contamination of foods. Oils infused with garlic
or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while
wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or
refrigerated. Because the botulism toxin is destroyed by high
temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider
boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety.
Because honey can contain spores of Clostridium botulinum and this has
been a source of infection for infants, children less than 12 months
old should not be fed honey. Honey is safe for persons 1 year of age
and older. Wound botulism can be prevented by promptly seeking medical
care for infected wounds and by not using injectable street drugs.
*****************
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:44:17 -0400, Serendipity <goa...@spammers.com>
wrote:
>Joel M. Eichen wrote:
Serendipity
> MORE BOTULISM information to become familiar with ........
>
> Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes
> which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept
> hot until served or refrigerated
Joel, as a experienced canner I am well aware of botulism and how to
prevent it in the items I can. IMO, oils should not be infused with
garlic or oils then stored. These are meant to be used within a day or
two. I do not feel there is a safe way to preserve garlic in oil. BTW,
the aforementioned is not canning.
W_B
Apologies.
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 19:33:55 -0400, Joel M. Eichen
<joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>adhominemadhominemadhominum ........
>
>NOW repeat after me ........
>
>
>Joel
>
>On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:31:14 GMT, W_B <no_...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>You are an idiot JE.
>>
>>You make me ashamed that you are part of the
>>dental profession.
>>
>>Hereby, move that JE be removed.
>>
>>...from the human race ?
>>
>>Nah...
>>
>>On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:23:21 -0400, Joel M. Eichen
>><joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:14:16 GMT, W_B <no_...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:06:32 -0400, Joel M. Eichen
>>>><joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>DENTAL STUFF:
>>>>>
>>>>>This gives us a perspective how people SPEND and SAVE money!
>>>>>
>>>>>J.E.
>>>>>***********************************************
>>>>
>>>>This gives us a perspective how people PRIORITIZE their funds.
>>>>
>>>>Most do it poorly, and remain such.
>>>
>>>YUP, why eat when there is scaling and root planing to be done?
>>>
>>>Joel
>>>
>>>
Joel M. Eichen
wrote:
>Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>
>> MORE BOTULISM information to become familiar with ........
>>
>> Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes
>> which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept
>> hot until served or refrigerated
>
>Joel, as a experienced canner I am well aware of botulism and how to
>prevent it in the items I can.
REPLY
As I previously stated, Serendip ... you are an experienced canner and
I DO trust you TOTALLY. However, for others (amateurs), please be
aware that one must strictly follow the rules here!
(This is exactly like dentistry ~ we got rules ~ we follow 'em!)
Joel
W_B
<joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Joel M. Eichen wrote:
What did the blind man say when he passed the fish market ?
<wait for it>
Hello, girls !
Joel M. Eichen
>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:41:07 -0400, Joel M. Eichen
><joele...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>
>
>What did the blind man say when he passed the fish market ?
Get me the way-y-y-y-y-y HECK outa here ......
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
Yet they sell various herbs in oil in stores.
Bill Bonde ( ``Soli Deo Gloria'' )
Since the solid white claims to be 6 oz and the threads of slurry, I
mean chunk light, also claims 6 oz, I'm unsure how that can apply to
tuna.
Joel M. Eichen
)" <std...@backpacker.com> wrote:
>> Joel, as a experienced canner I am well aware of botulism and how to
>> prevent it in the items I can. IMO, oils should not be infused with
>> garlic or oils then stored. These are meant to be used within a day or
>> two. I do not feel there is a safe way to preserve garlic in oil. BTW,
>> the aforementioned is not canning.
>>
>Yet they sell various herbs in oil in stores.
You mean like Exxon and Sunoco?
hchi...@hotmail.com
>
>
>hchi...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> mike <spa...@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Is it Chicken or Tuna? Nope, it's WATER!
>> >
>> >I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
>> >Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
>> >So, I drained the water and weighed it.
>> >3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
>> >
>> >I betcha if I drained it down to the normal
>> >water content of tuna it'd be less than half.
>> >
>> >Don't they have to list water as the first ingredient
>> >on the can?
>>
>> Went through that routine a while back. The average weight of product in a can
>> used as the normal serving is supposed to be the weight shown on the can. The
>> Federal standard is to take 24 cans of the product and derive an average weight
>> based on that. A can could be totally empty and be legal, as long as the other
>> 23 cans in a batch contained enough product to make up the difference.
>>
>> The drained weight of the tuna is supposed to be what is shown on the outside
>> of the can. There are other specs for the contents in tuna cans but I forget
>> them.
>>
>Since the solid white claims to be 6 oz and the threads of slurry, I
>mean chunk light, also claims 6 oz, I'm unsure how that can apply to
>tuna.
One website claims:
"Americans purchased more than 2.2 billion 6-ounce cans of tuna each year. If
you do the math, that should total about 814 million pounds of tuna, right?
Wrong! According to federal regulations, a 6-ounce can of solid tuna only has
to contain 3.75 ounces of tuna while a can of chunk tuna, which is less
compact, must contain only 3.29 ounces. How’s that for a fish tale? There’s a
proposal on the FDA table to make the total amount listed on a food label the
drained weight (for all foods, not just tuna) and serving sizes would have to
match up to the total weight. Predictably, no one knows when the proposal might
be adopted."
I'm not sure where they got their info. It is close but not accurate.
Here are the FDA tuna regulations:
<http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/21cfr161.190.htm>
This is more liberal than what normal net weight regulations allow:
<http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/flg-3.html>
307x113 can (a capacity of 7.05 avoirdupois ounces of water)
average _pressed_ minimum weight for 24 can lot:
Solid.................................................... 4.47
Chunks................................................... 3.92
Flakes................................................... 3.92
Grated................................................... 3.96
Pressing removes more water than draining, so the weight is more or less that
of dry tuna, with less moisture than would be palatable to most people. I saw
no indication of any minimum individual can weight, only the average over 24
cans.
Andy Goldwasser
has gotten over the last couple years, and it's infuriating that the
mercury/toxic metal levels are reported to be significantly higher in
the more expensive white/albacore. (Not that the latter hasn't gone down
in quality as well, either in texture [with strange colorless crystals
parked on top of the fillet] or taste [next to none] or both ...)
One exception: StarKist Prime Fillet (I think that's what it's called)
in olive oil (sells here for a not unreasonable $1.39 a can, and
ShopRite has a few times had half-price sales on it) is virtually
identical to the Progresso almost-never-goes-on-sale olive-oil-pack
tuna.
And let's not forget those 2-oz anchovy ("semi-perishable") tins being a
real crap shoot, qualitywise--you pulls the tab, you takes yer chances
(yer chances that the tin has been on the supermarket shelves since the
previous Iraq War) ...
Bob Ward
Isn't that convenient? Just like you forgot to provide a cite for the
other nonsense.
Here's a countercite that applies to the UK...
http://www.tradingstandards.net/pages/metrology.htm#six
The actual contents of the packages shall not be less, on average,
than the nominal quantity
Not more than 2.5 percent pf packages may be non-standard ie have
Tolerable Negative Errors (TNE) greater than that specified for the
particular nominal quantity
No package may be inadequate ie be deficient by more than twice the
TNE
That's where your nonsense falls apart - the other 23 cans would have
to be overfilled to make up for the empty can - it can't happen.
Bob Ward
)" <std...@backpacker.com> wrote:
>
>
>hchi...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> mike <spa...@juno.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Is it Chicken or Tuna? Nope, it's WATER!
>> >
>> >I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
>> >Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
>> >So, I drained the water and weighed it.
>> >3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
>> >
>> >I betcha if I drained it down to the normal
>> >water content of tuna it'd be less than half.
>> >
>> >Don't they have to list water as the first ingredient
>> >on the can?
>>
>> Went through that routine a while back. The average weight of product in a can
>> used as the normal serving is supposed to be the weight shown on the can. The
>> Federal standard is to take 24 cans of the product and derive an average weight
>> based on that. A can could be totally empty and be legal, as long as the other
>> 23 cans in a batch contained enough product to make up the difference.
>>
>> The drained weight of the tuna is supposed to be what is shown on the outside
>> of the can. There are other specs for the contents in tuna cans but I forget
>> them.
>>
>Since the solid white claims to be 6 oz and the threads of slurry, I
>mean chunk light, also claims 6 oz, I'm unsure how that can apply to
>tuna.
Read what the USDA says about the subject:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/fqa/aa20155a.htm
Joel M. Eichen
>>>
>>Since the solid white claims to be 6 oz and the threads of slurry, I
>>mean chunk light, also claims 6 oz, I'm unsure how that can apply to
>>tuna.
>
>
>Read what the USDA says about the subject:
>
>http://www.ams.usda.gov/fqa/aa20155a.htm
>
Very cool link Bob. THANK YOU!
Joel
hchi...@hotmail.com
Again-
Here are the FDA tuna regulations (text format):
<http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/21cfr161.190.htm>
As for those being FDA nonsense, I might agree. The FDA does some odd things
and is, of course, lobbied by the industry.
You should know better by now than to call anything MY "nonsense" and challenge
me for a cite when I say I've done the research. My nonsense is much more
creative. Now go and chop down the tallest tree in the forest with...
a herring! <music fades>
hchi...@hotmail.com
Except it is a red herring! The page refers to canned tuna "suitable for use
by the Federal Government" and not the general specs for general consumption by
the public. I posted the correct link.
Joel M. Eichen
>>
>>Very cool link Bob. THANK YOU!
>>
>>Joel
>
>Except it is a red herring! The page refers to canned tuna "suitable for use
>by the Federal Government" and not the general specs for general consumption by
>the public. I posted the correct link.
QUESTION:
How can a tuna be a red herring?
Bob Ward
Can you point out where it allows one can out of 24 to be completely
empty?
Sewmaster
> Here's the problem .......
>
> The Big Boys have equipment that puts it in the can and seals it.
>
> How do the HOME CANERS .. I mean HOME CANNERS handle the sealing
> porocess?
>
> Joel
The jars are cooked at high heat under pressure.
Instructions are in _The Ball Blue Book_,
_Putting Food By_ & _The Joy of Cooking_.
It is done in a home pressure canner.
Pricey but necessary for safe low acid foods.
Sewmaster, been canning safely for 40 years.
hchi...@hotmail.com
>>>That's where your nonsense falls apart - the other 23 cans would have
>>>to be overfilled to make up for the empty can - it can't happen.
>>>
>>>
>>Again-
>>Here are the FDA tuna regulations (text format):
>><http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/aprqtr/21cfr161.190.htm>
>>
>>As for those being FDA nonsense, I might agree. The FDA does some odd things
>>and is, of course, lobbied by the industry.
>>
>>You should know better by now than to call anything MY "nonsense" and challenge
>>me for a cite when I say I've done the research. My nonsense is much more
>>creative. Now go and chop down the tallest tree in the forest with...
>>a herring! <music fades>
>
>
>Can you point out where it allows one can out of 24 to be completely
>empty?
>
That would be proving a negative. Can you point out where it doesn't? The
rules are specific that it is the 24 can average that counts, and the regs are
silent on the weight of contents of any single individual can. I tried to find
something along what you are trying to suggest a while back. I had a larger
can that was less than one-third full when the water was pressed out, and was
clearly underweight by a significant amount. If I had been able to find a
regulation like that, I was ready to push the situation.
Chloe
news:414f334c...@News.Individual.NET...
>
> Except it is a red herring! The page refers to canned tuna "suitable for
> use
> by the Federal Government" and not the general specs for general
> consumption by
> the public. I posted the correct link.
Oh, good. I like herring better than tuna anyway. Especially pickled.
Joel M. Eichen
Me too!
YUM!
>
Bob Ward
That point was covered in my cite of the UK regulation
http://www.tradingstandards.net/pages/metrology.htm#six
Section 47 provides for the duties which must be performed by packers
and importers to ensure that a group of packages selected by an
inspector pass the reference test. There are 3 basic rules which must
be satisfied:
The actual contents of the packages shall not be less, on average,
than the nominal quantity
Not more than 2.5 percent pf packages may be non-standard ie have
Tolerable Negative Errors (TNE) greater than that specified for the
particular nominal quantity
No package may be inadequate ie be deficient by more than twice the
TNE
Since you didn't specify US regulations when you made your statement,
I believe that this cite invalidates your claim.
hchi...@hotmail.com
My claim:
"Went through that routine a while back....
...The
Federal standard is to take 24 cans of the product and derive an average weight
based on that. A can could be totally empty and be legal, as long as the other
23 cans in a batch contained enough product to make up the difference."
I've not heard UK product law ever referred to as being "federal."
Commonwealth, Crown, Queen's Bench maybe, but since the UK doesn't have a
"federal" government per se, and since I don't live in the UK but live in the
U.S. (as you know) your cite is irrelevant and immaterial, and may be
mercurially mad.
Sewmaster
> Here's the problem .......
>
> The Big Boys have equipment that puts it in the can and seals it.
>
> How do the HOME CANERS .. I mean HOME CANNERS handle the sealing
> porocess?
>
> Joel
It's canned under pressure. Yes, in the pressure canner at home.
Sewmaster
mike
> Is it Chicken or Tuna? Nope, it's WATER!
>
> I opened a can of chickenofthesea.
> Hmmm...doesn't seem to be much tuna in here...
> So, I drained the water and weighed it.
> 3oz. of tuna in a 6oz. can.
>
> I betcha if I drained it down to the normal
> water content of tuna it'd be less than half.
>
> Don't they have to list water as the first ingredient
> on the can?
>
> tell that it's tuna.
>
> Oil is lighter than water. Does that mean that
> oil-packed has more tuna than water packed?
>
> Rude awakening for this frugal dude.
> If it's a can of tuna, the net weight oughta be
> the net weight of the tuna.
>
> Thanks for listening to my rant.
> mike
Here's my exchange with chickenofthesea.
It's top posted, so it's in reverse chronology.
Bottom line is that they claim that their machine
puts 4-4.2 oz. of tuna in a 6 oz. can.
I suggest everybody send them their address for
reimbursement of the 1/3 shortage of tuna.
mike
-----Original Message-----
From: "consumeraffairs"<consume...@cosintl.com>
To: "mike"<spa...@go.com>
Date: Wed Sep 15 07:20:55 PDT 2004
Subject: Re: Chicken of the Sea Customer Feedback
>Depending on the density of the meat there will be 4 to 4.2 ounces of
>meat in the can. As explained below, this filling is done by machine
>so, as you have seen, it is possible for a can or two to make it past
>without the proper amount of tuna. We certainly apologize for this and
>please expect to be reimbursed shortly.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mike [mailto:spa...@go.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 11:17 AM
>To: consumeraffairs
>Subject: Re: Re: Chicken of the Sea Customer Feedback
>
>Hi,
>Thanks for the prompt reply.
>So, according to your description,
>how much by weight is the "proper
>amount of tuna" that you put in a 6oz.
>can?
>Thanks, mike
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "consumeraffairs"<consume...@cosintl.com>
>To: spa...@go.com
>Date: Tue Sep 14 08:50:20 PDT 2004
>Subject: Re: Chicken of the Sea Customer Feedback
>
>>Thank you for contacting us. The net weight of canned tuna includes
>>the fish, liquid, and all the other ingredients shown on the label.
>>The drained weight will always be less than the net contents indicate.
>>Drained weight, however, is not a good measure of the proper amount of
>>tuna because of the differences in bulk density of the varying pack
>>styles and the amount of oil or water retained when drained. Actually,
>
>>the can volume occupied by the tuna is a better measure of the proper
>>amount in any given can. In order to produce canned tuna of good
>>quality, the fish must be covered with liquid. If the products were
>>packed without this liquid, the tuna would be badly scorched during the
>
>>sterilization process and its quality would be seriously affected. The
>
>>procedure then must be, first, to fill the can with the proper amount
>>of tuna and, second, to add sufficient oil or water to protect the tuna
>
>>prevent scorching. If can be of further assistance, do not hesitate to
>
>>contact us again or visit our "Product information" at
>>www.chickenofthesea.com.
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>>
Joel M. Eichen
wrote:
YUP, so do you place the sealed jars (I assume it is like high-acid
canning) inside the pressure cooker or what?
JOEL
Serendipity
Sewmaster, it does seem like Joel is doing a little hooking and lining
if you get what I mean. As a fellow canner, I understand you wanting to
defend the hobby or however else you define it. I've stopped responding
to J just because of the nonsensical replies and the fact that basic
canning techniques and processes can easily be looked up on google.
>
> Sewmaster
>
Joel M. Eichen
interested in answering polite questions about how you SAFELY can
low-acid, potentially deadly foods.
Just a thought, but if its a secret, well okay.
Instead of informing and educating others, you prefer to do what you
do!
JOEL
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:19:48 -0400, Serendipity <goa...@spammers.com>
wrote:
K. Reece
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:19:48 -0400, Serendipity <goa...@spammers.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Sewmaster, it does seem like Joel is doing a little hooking and lining
> >if you get what I mean. As a fellow canner, I understand you wanting to
> >defend the hobby or however else you define it. I've stopped responding
> >to J just because of the nonsensical replies and the fact that basic
> >canning techniques and processes can easily be looked up on google.
> >>
> >> Sewmaster
>
"Joel M. Eichen" <joele...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:q0hhk01pm2p8vje9d...@4ax.com...
> SM, its a discussion group and I would imagine that you would be
> interested in answering polite questions about how you SAFELY can
> low-acid, potentially deadly foods.
>
> Just a thought, but if its a secret, well okay.
>
> Instead of informing and educating others, you prefer to do what you
> do!
>
> JOEL
>
Your questions have been answered several times over. You've been provided
several links to "how to" web sites. I don't know why anyone continues to
answer your questions.
I'll type this answer slow so maybe you can understand it.
H O M E C A N N I N G IS S A F E. I N S T R U C T I O N S F O R S A F
E C A N N I N G C A N B E F O U N D A L L O V E R T H E I N T E R N
E T.
If you just want to be a food paranoid, fine, but stop bugging the rest of
us.
Kathy
Sewmaster
> SM, its a discussion group and I would imagine that you would be
> interested in answering polite questions about how you SAFELY can
> low-acid, potentially deadly foods.
>
> Just a thought, but if its a secret, well okay.
>
> Instead of informing and educating others, you prefer to do what you
> do!
>
> JOEL
Serendipity does not dictate to whom I reply, & she should
watch her attributions. I am all for education, I think
that far too many people are easily classed as trolls
who simply may have unfortunate writing styles.
Real trolls are quite different, as reading anything
Rod Speed has to say would show.
BTW, Serendipity, since you are intent on telling me that
you think Joel is a troll, also that Harry is a troll,
here's a thought for you.
I find your insinuations that Harry needs meds to function,
highly offensive, outright false, & nasty.
I've read him for 9 years here in MCFL, he's had a lot
of good frugal advice to offer over the years.
Your continued insinuations regarding him make
you read as pretty ridiculous.
Is that really what you want?
Are you "Dessy?" Your writing style is very similar to hers.
Joel, how you read to me is that you think most home
canners have 3 functional brain cells. Maybe a few, but
I suspect most people who are going to make the time,
effort & expense to can, want their money's worth & they
don't want to die.
I always take safety precautions. My family eats what I can
& I am going to make sure it is clean & safe.
Yes, you put the stuff in a canning jar, wipe the rim with
a cleam cloth & put on the lid & ring. The jars sit down
in the canner which is sealed. The whole thing is brought
to the right pressure
& time; frex, hamburger is done at 10 lbs pressure, 75 minutes for
pints & 90 for quarts. If you want more info, look it up & don't be
lazy. I already posted books where this info can be easily found.
Sewmaster
Joel M. Eichen
issue. If you do not want to answer, then please just skip over this
thread.
JOEL